Afternoon Pint
Afternoon Pint is a laid-back Canadian podcast hosted by Matt Conrad and Mike Tobin. Each episode, they invite a special guest to join them at a pub or microbrewery to get to know them a bit better. Conversations cover a wide range of topics, including Entrepreneurship, business, Arts, pop culture, music, science, society, Life stories, experiences, you get the idea...
Our aim is to create a show for everyone (even non-Canadians.) We create a welcoming atmosphere where guests can share their perspectives with transparency. Essentially, Afternoon Pint is like heading to the pub after work to catch up with some friends through your headphones or stereo. We are Nova Scotia's #2 podcast, but we pretend we are number 1!
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Afternoon Pint
Scott Simmons - Advocating for Ontario's Craft Brewers and Celebrating Community Spirit (President, Ontario Craft Brewers Association)
Join us for an enlightening conversation with Scott Simmons, President of the Ontario Craft Brewers Association, as we unravel the complex challenges facing Ontario's craft brewers. Ever wondered why Ontario's craft beer scene isn't thriving as much as its potential suggests? Learn how sky-high taxes and the historical grip of the beer store monopoly are stifling these local gems. Scott shares his insights on necessary tax reforms and the recent, yet insufficient, changes allowing more retail outlets to sell craft beer.
Craft breweries are not just about beer; they are the beating heart of local economies, particularly in Ontario and Nova Scotia. These small businesses create a substantial number of brewing jobs and serve as vibrant community hubs. We dive into the restrictive nature of Ontario's traditional beer store model, which favors multinational giants over local brewers, and explore the "Save Local Craft Beer" campaign. This initiative connects brewers and consumers with government officials to push for policy reforms that could rejuvenate local craft beer industries.
As we wrap up, we lighten the mood with a playful segment featuring Scott's favorite hockey teams, beer preferences, and love for cultural classics like "Star Wars." We share stories of memorable experiences at breweries and emphasize the community spirit they foster. Ending on a heartfelt note, Scott reminds us of the power of kindness and community in making the world a better place. This episode is a perfect blend of serious advocacy, cultural celebration, and a touch of fun, leaving you inspired to support your local craft breweries.
If you live in Ontario and you want to support craft brewers, head on over to https://www.savelocalcraftbeer.ca/
If you want to learn more about the Ontario Craft Brewers Association https://ontariocraftbrewers.com/about/
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from far and wide. We cheers, cheers and welcome to the afternoon point. I'm mike tobin, I am matt conrad, and who do you have with us today?
Speaker 2:and I'm scott simmons, president of the ontario craft brewers association cheers, cheers.
Speaker 1:scott, thanks for joining our show. So I found you, like many others, on linkedin um, I mean the look, the backstory and you're going to explain this to me because I really didn't know much about it and that's why I really wanted to talk to you. But what's going on, and we'll just jump right into it with this Ontario beer tax thing?
Speaker 2:Well, I've been the president of the association for the past seven years and I'm not exaggerating when I say we've been on this file for the entire seven years. I've been around. Simply put and we can dive into deeper details the taxes that Ontario craft brewers pay are incredibly high and way higher than any other province in Canada Eight times Alberta, as an example and we'll dive into it. But unless these taxes are lowered, craft brewers aren't going to be able to compete effectively in our province.
Speaker 3:So with that like with you know and I know this kind of died a death, but with Ford's like $1 beer kind of thing, like wouldn't that have had to have had like next to no tax in order for that to even come close to happening?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think if you ask Ford himself, he probably regrets saying that, as you guys know, probably better than others. Yeah, the in 2024, or even back when that was made 2020, whenever it was just literally the ingredient costs and the packaging costs are probably a buck a beer. I mean 20 years ago in Ontario anyway, there was a couple of breweries that kind of made their heyday on buck a beer and were selling it for 24 bucks a case and even back then probably weren't making much. But 20 years later, in 2024, it's not even possible. Not even possible.
Speaker 2:But you know, when Ford got elected four years ago, was it? He made a vow to break the monopoly that was held by what's called the beer store here in Ontario, the master framework agreement. And you know, fast forward to today, that agreement was finally rescinded or ended. It doesn't end officially until the end of 2025, but we're already in the transition phase and it's modernizing the retail marketplace here in Ontario, which means simply that thousands more retail outlets are going to be able to sell craft beer here in Ontario.
Speaker 1:See, I thought that would be a great thing. I heard about that, but it's not going to be a great thing with this tax thing. Is that the deal?
Speaker 2:The two are tied together because we have long supported we being the Ontario Craft Brewers Association, have long supported Ford in his desire to end the master framework agreement and open up the beer retailing in this province. We think that was necessary to help us grow Ontario craft beer share here in Ontario. And you know, just give you some stats, ontario craft beer is roughly 11% of the beer market here in Ontario. If you look out West Alberta is close to 20%, BC is close to 30%.
Speaker 2:You guys correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in the Atlantic provinces it's about the same like close to 30% craft beer and we have long held that. There's two key reasons why we're the way we are in Ontario One, the retail monopoly held by the beer store and the limited amount of retail locations. And B, the tax regime. So now that the retail market has opened, simply put, craft brewers need tax reform so that they will have the money to invest to be able to take advantage and compete in this new expanded retail marketplace. So they're kind of 1A and 1B, like you can't have one without the other, and we've been telling government that for the last four to five years.
Speaker 1:Sure, and to move things on real quick, matt, what are you drinking? What are you drinking today?
Speaker 3:bud, oh, yeah, I actually ran around a little bit. I tried to, uh I tried to find an ontario beer to to drink, um, but I went to three, uh three different stores and I couldn't find a single ontario beer on there. In fact, fun story, I went to one one particular, you know, nslc store downtown to get an Ontario beer and I went to the guy and said, hey, looking for an Ontario beer. And the craziest thing happened A guy walked in with a mask, like asking for, like booze, like robbing the place, and I was like is this really happening?
Speaker 3:And they were like, hey, we're going to call 911., they're going to get the police here. And the guy said, yeah, yeah don't, yeah, I don't care, go ahead, go ahead. And they got on the phone, called 911. I'm standing here watching this all go down. The guy walks over, grabs a bottle of gin and just walks out and they tell him to go eat glass or something like that on his way out the door. But I was trying to find an Ontario beer and I actually witnessed kind of a robbery in action, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that's what we should be talking about on the show today.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you're okay. Okay, I hope the guy wasn't brandishing a weapon of any sort, but uh see what happens. When he asked for an ontario beer, and honestly, I mean, I didn't see a weapon.
Speaker 3:Who knows? Um, apparently he's known, uh, to the stores in the downtown area so they they were like we know who he is. That's why they were really calm and kind of challenged him a little bit on it, uh, so they'll probably be able to know exactly where to send the cops.
Speaker 2:So well, ironically that's happening a lot in ontario at the lcbo stores. The government run stores because the, the criminals, know that there's a mandate for staff not to react or intercept. And uh, people are pretty bold these days and there's been some pretty disturbing incidents here in Ontario. So it's a sad reflection on our society. But booze, you know it's pretty expensive and I guess people are taking advantage. But back to your point. You know it's a totally different topic, maybe for another day, but trying to find interprovincial beers in different provinces is difficult.
Speaker 1:In canada, as you guys probably know, there's some pretty prohibitive, uh barriers of I mentioned to change that matt and mike where, yeah, we're trying to change that so I actually I ended up getting a local beer.
Speaker 3:This is propeller, one of our older breweries in the in there, and this is a straight out of willy wonka.
Speaker 2:This is a reese peanut butter cup dessert stout well, I give you, I give you an, a plus for effort for trying to get a, uh, a good ontario craft beer, and I'm I'm drinking a good old muskoka detour today my go-to brands here in ontario you know, In the same level of like Willy Wonka stuff, Muskoka has that cherry chocolate stout.
Speaker 3:That is like it always comes this way at Christmas time and it's fantastic. I never miss to get it.
Speaker 1:Now I did find an Ontario beer in Nova Scotia, this one here oh, jeepers Ransack the Universe. Oh, that's collective arts, man and I'm a big op fan and this is uh, this is a nine out of ten. This is really really good.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, they're um, they're, they're one of the best breweries here in ontario. In fact, we just had our annual industry conference uh last week in hamilton, ontario, where they're located, and they hosted an epic closing party uh last thursday night. So, uh, oh cool. Um, lots of uh collective beers were consumed uh that evening. But uh, a great brewery, good choice.
Speaker 3:So back to the interprovincial thing. Yeah, I, I kind of I agree with you as much as I love the fact that we're supporting local and that we, you know, we have walls of our local nova scotia craft beer which we have a lot for a small province, um, I love that. But at the same time I, you know you want some variety. You don't want to have to like travel every time. You want to try a different style of beer for you know. So I, I would love, you know, uh, I'd love to keep the nova scotia section, but I'd love to keep, you know, gain, a, uh, you know, canadian section. I mean, I think all of us can, and I mean I know all of us will agree that we can see a whole lot less cores and, you know, bud and all that stuff on our shelves and just more canadian beer. Well, that, that's, matt.
Speaker 2:I think you hit the nail on the head. See, that's probably the issue that people in my chair across the country are advocating to get more space on shelves for craft beer. But right now it's a pretty finite space.
Speaker 2:So I think some of the breweries and you know people's opinions are different, but some probably like to keep it. Where, say, in Nova Scotia. It's primarily Nova Scotia craft beers because it's tough to make a go of it begin with competing against the big boys. Now you know without here are having a tough time, let alone having to compete with the great breweries from Alberta, bc and out east etc. So it's a really interesting topic. There's really good arguments on both sides of the equation.
Speaker 1:So Ontario is massive. So how many people are part of your organization, organization right now? How many brewers approximately?
Speaker 2:there's. There's uh, roughly, and it's hard to keep the exact number, but there's between 330 and 340 bricks and mortar craft breweries in ontario and the reason I say bricks and mortar is because you need to own and operate your own bricks and mortar brewery to be a member of the ocb contract. Brewers here in in Ontario can't be a member of our association. So 330 to 340 breweries they're literally in every postal code across the province, which you know is a great story that I try to tell government that this is a great industry creating jobs in not only urban areas like like Toronto, but rural and Northern areas as well where it's tough to create jobs.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, I think people I don't know if it's if they aren't aware of it or they're not aware of the magnitude but craft breweries are our community, like they are the community in a lot of ways.
Speaker 3:Like a lot of craft, they're obviously local entrepreneurs which are the community in a lot of ways like a lot of crap. They're obviously local entrepreneurs which are the backbone of our economy. On top of that, they're creating, you know these, these products that are, you know, organic and and like you know I want to I know there's alcohol in them, but you know it's they. It's kind of good for you in the sense that it's not just mass-produced garbage that you, you know, get to drink and it's a local, good product that uses local, supports everything around them, like they're supporting farmers, they're supporting all this stuff. A lot of them have really good initiatives to kind of give back to the community or do some like kind of social forward thinking things, like they really aren't viewed as to the magnitude that they should be of you know what they contribute to our society.
Speaker 2:I couldn't have said it better. I said earlier that craft beer in Ontario is about 11% of the beer market, but they represent 80, 8-0, 80% of all brewing jobs in Ontario and it's probably the same in Nova Scotia. I mean, you've got some great bigger breweries in Nova Scotia, but the small guys are really, when you add them all up, really make a difference. And you said it well. They're contributing in so many ways, not just jobs, but local investment. They're meeting hubs, they're contributing to local charities, they're a big part of local communities, and small businesses are really what are the heartbeat of our economy.
Speaker 1:So that's really the focus of our pitch to government on why to lower taxes yeah, yeah, we were at halcon recently here local city garrison is supporting that and uh, I don't know how many events matt and I've been to where you know you often see a local brewer not, uh, not a bud or not a, not a major company supporting a little local event that we have in the community. Right, it's all over. Windsor's become windsor, nova scotia has become a pillar. Uh like, people are moving there right, and I think it contributes a little bit to the brewery that they put in not just the brewery but the community around the brewery and kind of starting to build up, rebuild that downtown hub again. I mean, I think Schoolhouse, a brewery here in Nova Scotia is a lot to thank for that.
Speaker 3:I couldn't agree more honestly, like when that the town wasn't super exciting to go to. It had a couple of good restaurants, but that brewery decided to open there and now it has french bakeries. It has, you know, great coffee shops, new restaurants they're. They're shooting a stephen king movie or a tv series in there now, like it's just blown up, and I'm not saying it's because of the brewery, but you know the timeline kind of works out that they chose to go there, revitalize this down, like right on the main street, and now all of a sudden it's. You know, people are moving there.
Speaker 3:It's, you know it helps that it's just like 45 minutes outside of the city, but it's, if you, we're trying to attract doctors, we're trying to attract, like, professionals, like whether whatever type of profession we're looking for, and the fact is that people like things to do and craft breweries offer entertainment, they offer a good, like you know, they always offer good food. For the most part, like the ones that serve food, it's oh, you always see local ingredients and then so that you're drinking local ingredients and you're eating local ingredients, it's just all. You're drinking local ingredients and you're eating local ingredients. It's just all around better and it can really save a time.
Speaker 2:And you know, since when COVID happened, we all went through COVID and people kind of really got on the bandwagon of wanting to support their local businesses to try to help them recover. And you know, I don't think that's wavered. I really do think there's a segment of the population that, even if they have to pay a little bit more, want to support the local small business in their community. And yeah, I agree with you, I think craft breweries in a lot of ways are the heartbeat of many communities for many reasons.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, it's going back, I guess, a little bit to like the beer store and stuff like that. So you're now going to be kind of breaking away from almost kind of a monopoly. It seemed like it was a few of the major companies that kind of had in, I guess, investment in the beer store and I've been there, you know, several times and shopped at the beer store and everything. But it does seem like your the beer store seemed very restrictive in terms of, like, what you can get for beer versus. I found more selection when you went to like the LCBO.
Speaker 2:Well, it's an interesting business case to study. You know you can't argue with its success. It's been around for about 100 years. But you know, back when the beer store started in the 1920s, coming out of prohibition, the Ontario government didn't want to be in the business of selling beer. So they said to the brewers, you take over the retail side of it. But at that time and I don't know the exact number, but there was no, none of these BMF multinational breweries, that they were still all relatively small. And so at the time it really operated the way it was intended to operate, like an industry co-op, where I'll just make up the number let's say there was 50 breweries charged to running it, like the 50 of them all had an equal say. And yet you fast forward 80 years and all of a sudden it was really kind of two foreign-owned multinationals controlling it, being Molson Coors and then Labatt, who's owned by InBev Sleeman in Ontario. Here is a much smaller share, but you know, I'll give you a stat that I think kind of just tells you where the problem is.
Speaker 2:For craft breweries here in Ontario, prior to the MFA ending, there might have been 2,000 retail outlets in Ontario, let's call it 500 of them being the beer store. There might have been about 600 LCBO outlets and 500 grocery outlets, and then some convenience outlets, lcbo convenience outlets blah, blah, blah. But the beer store sold the lion's share of beer in this province because they had an exclusive right to selling larger packs. The only place you could get a 12-pack or a 24 or a 30 would be in the beer store. So they represented three-quarters of the beer sales in this province. If you looked at market shares, craft beer represented about 15% of the retail sales in grocery stores and 15% of beer sales in the LCBO, but only 2% of beer sales in the beer store. So you can write your own conclusions about how that happened, but it's never easy when the major retail outlet is owned by your competitors foreign-owned competitors. So having the majority of beer sold in a channel that only had two percent craft sales now just from a consumer standpoint.
Speaker 1:That is that beer generally less expensive to buy, though is it easier to grab the the case of bud light off the shelf well, in ontario, prior to the MFA ending, all the retail prices had to be consistent.
Speaker 2:So a can of beer in the beer store, say Muskoka Detour, had to be the exact same retail price at the LCBO, at the beer store, at the grocery store. But to your point where the beer store had the advantage when they're the only ones selling larger packs. To your point where the beer store had the advantage when they're the only one selling larger packs. Obviously it's cheaper on a per unit basis to buy a larger pack, and they were the only place you could do it. So anybody who's looking to kind of save a little bit of money and isn't that all of us is going to go to the beer store. And the way the stores are merchandised, all of the owner's products are the ones that are right in front of your face. All of the owner's products are the ones that are right in front of your face, and it's very, very hard to know if they list any craft beer or god forbid, see it, because most of the stores are not self-serve well, that's.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It's. It's almost like when you go in there. I found it really weird. It's almost like ordering a pack of cigarettes or something you know, to see what they are it is I?
Speaker 2:I don't know if out in the east coast you had back when I was a kid in here in ontario had these stores called consumers distributing, where it was like a retail store, and you'd go in and look at a catalog and you'd fill out a slip. You know you wanted, you wanted this, uh, microwave. Yeah, you'd fill out the slip that says I want item number six, four, seven, dash b. You go, hand it to a guy. He'd disappear into the warehouse and come back out with your microwave. That's the way the beer store operates. You have to know what you want when you go in and you walk into the till and say, give me 24, whatever.
Speaker 2:The guy disappears into the back and it comes whipping out the rollers.
Speaker 1:So there's no ability.
Speaker 2:All of us, when we shop whether it's for beer or whether it's grocery shopping you like to see the product on the shelf, so you can pick up a package, look at it, read the ingredients, whatever. Yeah, that just was never the case in the beer store. So, again, long story short. Um, having that retail marketplace the way it was in Ontario really inhibited us, and now it's wide open. So now every grocery store, every convenience store, every big box store can sell beer in this province and we think it's going to be a huge boost to our industry, but only, as we said, right off the top of the show, if they lower these oppressive taxes so that craft brewers, who you know have a tough time with any profitability these days, have a little bit of money left over to invest, to be able to compete. So, like I said, it's like 1A, 1b.
Speaker 1:I asked our premier about lowering taxes just for beer, For local beer, For local beer For Nova Scotian, so it's like, and he said you know that can't be done. And when I asked why we haven't dived into this yet, he said trade laws. I never really understood that answer, to be fair, but like is there laws prohibiting that that are already in place? Do you know to lower the tax for a beer over and above?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a really good question. And again, it depends where. They are referring to federal excise tax, which you guys probably know about. You know that's the same from coast to coast, but, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think there is any laws here in Ontario that would prohibit the government from reducing taxes.
Speaker 2:Now, you know, all of us have paid these taxes and we've probably all heard the term sin taxes, right, like on tobacco and alcohol, and the way it's perceived by the public is that these products should have high taxes because all that money goes to support, say, hospitals and schools, which are all very important. But what? And I'm oversimplifying the business case here in Ontario? But these taxes are so high that they've suppressed the industry, and what they're missing to me is the major point that if we can double the size of this industry in Ontario, we're right now close to a billion dollar business in terms of economic impact. If we could become a $2 billion business and instead of having 10,000 jobs, have 20,000 jobs, all those people are going to be paying payroll taxes, they're going to be investing, it's going to be boosting the economy, which what's that going to do? Create more money for hospitals and schools.
Speaker 2:So you know, I understand the concept of sin taxes, but you know, sometimes it can go too far, because my whole school of thought is how do we maximize the economic impact of this industry in our province which will yield more tax revenue to do all the great things that people want to do with hospitals and schools, et cetera, et cetera? So it's a really interesting argument. There's good arguments on both sides of the fence, but I'm hoping our government. They committed to a review of all beer taxes and fees and they're going to be done by the end of this year, calendar year.
Speaker 1:So look, we're looking at what a month and a half how can Ontario I don't think there's much we can do personally in Nova Scotia but how can Ontario residents that might be listening to this podcast, how can they help fight for this? Well?
Speaker 2:that's a great question. We just launched a campaign called Save Local Craft Beer and I hope I get the website right SaveLocalCraftBeerca, I believe it is.
Speaker 1:Maybe you can look it up while we're talking to make sure I got that right, We'll link to it in this episode. 100%. Follow this episode. You can go to the episode description.
Speaker 2:It's a campaign where it allows the breweries to interact and write letters to their local MPP. Get involved, have letters to their local MPP, get involved, have meetings with their local MPP government official here in Ontario. But it also gives the consumers an option to write a letter to their local government official and it makes it easy for them. The letter is completely turnkey. All you got to do is plug in your home address and it will pop up the name of your local government official.
Speaker 2:The campaign's been running for about three weeks and I think there's already thousands of letters that have been written, and anything we can do to kind of highlight the issue and put pressure on government is only going to help us get over the finish line. But yeah, you know I know most of your listeners are probably on the finish line. But yeah, you know, I know most of your listeners are probably on the east coast and you know I'm talking about ontario, but I think my philosophy applies to every province. Yes, we lower beer taxes and help these small businesses get a foothold it's tough there.
Speaker 2:There is a high barrier of entry to starting a brewery.
Speaker 1:You know, I think when I wrote you scott, I said, yeah, it costs you a lot of money.
Speaker 2:And if government kind of woke up and understood that like literally you could make an argument there should be no taxes up until maybe 2000 hectoliters, when government's had a chance to actually invest, get a foothold, make some money, because it's in government's best interest to have these businesses growing right, profitable and growing because they're only going to invest more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just want to hit home what you just said, though. This is important for every province. It is, and that's when I saw what you were doing and I read a little bit about it, I said, geez, you know, we have the same problems here in Nova Scotia, newfoundland, prince Edward Island, new Brunswick, all of our maritime provinces and right across the country, I imagine, are going through the same pains here with these craft breweries. They're working so hard. That brings so much culture and community to our spots. We need to get behind them, right.
Speaker 2:We do and you know I've had the pleasure of, over the last couple of years, meeting my counterparts in every other province and territory in Canada and we started, believe it or not, up until three years ago I think maybe four there was no Canadian Craft Brewers Association and we launched one three, four years ago and have made incredible progress and I'm proud to be Ontario's representative on that board and I know there's. You know, debbie from Nova Scotia is the Nova Scotia representative and we've made some great progress in Ottawa with federal excise reform. We had it reduced significantly for the first 15,000 hectoliters and there's all sorts of other issues federally Like.
Speaker 2:I know we don't have time to get into all of them, but these new drinking guidelines, which have somehow this, this third party organization, made this recommendation and everybody seems to think that they're yeah, yeah, you know right now that the guidelines federally, I think, are 14 drinks a week, like two a day, Okay, and there's a there's a lobby group out there trying to get that significantly reduced and the research is completely flawed.
Speaker 2:But, for whatever reason, you got to give them credit because it's gaining momentum and these are the kinds of things that can hurt our industry Like we, we, all of us in this industry promote, you know, promote people drinking responsibly. Nobody wants anyone to get into health problems whatsoever, but there are so many benefits to, as we talked about, local breweries, social drinking has been around for hundreds of thousands of years and it's kind of the backbone of getting together with friends and family and there's nothing wrong with having, you know, a drink every now and then. And we just have to get out in front of these issues that are potentially going to be very harmful to our industry, because this is a great industry of a thousand breweries across Canada that are owned and operated by Canadian citizens doing great things for our communities, and I'm really proud to be part of it, and there's no shortage of issues every day, whether it's municipal, provincial or federal.
Speaker 3:Now I'd like to echo that a little bit because I mean I think for every study out there that says like, oh yeah, you know, don't drink, there's an equal study out there that says that there are health benefits. I'm not sitting there saying like slug back some vodka or anything, but you know, there are certain. There's lots of studies that go and show at least beer and wine, particular, have benefits. There's vitamins in it, there's antioxidants in it. There's lots of things there that help. Um, you know, I I one thing I find kind of fascinating that I I like to read about here and there and that I at one point did a lot like over COVID, did a lot of reading about, and that's blue zones.
Speaker 3:And for anyone not familiar, as we talked about this on the show before is the blue zones are high concentration of centenarians. So people living into their hundreds, like couples living into their hundreds, right. People living into their hundreds like couples living into their hundreds, right. And the weird thing is is that a lot of these blue zones come from areas where people drink daily. Again, it's not a six pack every day. You know the the person might go down and you know the Sardinia in Italy is one of the is the actually the highest concentration. They have labs there studying this and and they people eat past every day. They eat fish and wine, it's every single day. That's their daily diet and people are going in and stopping on, like you know, for a daily walk. People in their hundreds, like this guy's, like 100 years old. I saw this guy he's 100 years old. Every day he walks down to this local pub and he has a glass of red wine and then continues on with his walk the rest of the day I.
Speaker 2:I couldn't agree with you more, and I don't pretend to be a doctor, but I've seen those studies that you referred to that claim that if you had no more than two drinks a day for the rest of your life, you will be healthier than someone who's a complete abstainer. Yes, yes. Now the asterisk to that is that if you go past two drinks a day and you drink excessively, of course, you're going to cause harm to yourself and people around you.
Speaker 2:But isn't it interesting that a couple of drinks a day I I believe the studies of you know it's got health benefits. But this is what we have to guard against, because the study I referred to that you know it says that if you have two drinks a week, you are going to seriously impact your health, which I think is completely erroneous. And it's one of the things, as an example, that we're fighting at the Canadian Craft Brewers Association and there's there's labeling issues and other things. But it's great now that we have a national association to represent the voice of these great craft breweries coast to coast.
Speaker 1:This show is politically unbiased, or we try to be Scott, but is it a political issue? Is there something on the other side that's saying different? Or do you find this is just the new? What like? Do you think like this is a the conservatives.
Speaker 2:Well, uh, you know, I don't care. I don't care what government's in power, but we know what government's in power in ottawa right now. And what I find completely frustrating is that the federal, uh, ministry of of health that's not the exact name, whatever ministry it falls under the current drinking guidelines have not changed. They have not changed, and I have asked them, we at the CCBA have asked them for one thing issue a clarifying statement that says here are the guidelines. They have not changed. What's being reported in the media is a proposal by a third party organization that have not been adopted by the federal government. The government's refused so far to clarify that situation, which I find completely irresponsible, to be candid.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I mean, I know we're in a little bit of a time here because I could sit here and talk about this stuff all night with you. But one question I have for you is, you know, being in the position that you're in obviously Ontario, highest population in the country, biggest province you know there's a lot of pull that you may have and then you're also part of the national board as well have, and then you're also part of the national board as well. So do you find that you love or that you are, uh, you know, a thorn in the side of these big brewers that these international brewers like are they are you not even on the radar just because they're that big, or are they like finding you ultra annoying?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm not sure if they find us ultra annoying, but we're definitely on their radar. I mean, I can only speak for Ontario, but the beer market in Ontario is about a $4 billion market. So when craft beer has 11% of that 10% would be hell's my math $400 million industry, so that $400 million is coming at the expense of the big brewers.
Speaker 1:So we're definitely on their radar.
Speaker 2:And if we can work to, as I said earlier, get our share up closer to what it is, say where you are, or Alberta or BC, it's going to become a billion-dollar industry. So we're definitely on the radar and, look, you got to give credit to those big companies because they're good, well-run companies and there's always going to be a place for the products they sell. Of course, yeah, but there is a group of people out there that like to enjoy a local, well-crafted, unique craft beer, for example, like the one you're drinking, and they're hard to find on retail shelves here in Ontario, which is a shame. The only place you can find them is at the craft brewery that makes them, and I'm oversimplifying what we're trying to do here in Ontario. But if that beer in your hand was an Ontario beer, I'd like to see it on hundreds of retail shelves, not zero, as really is the case now.
Speaker 3:that's oversimplifying what we're trying to do here in this province, and I'm sure everybody from coast to coast is trying to do the same thing I know here, at least when we talked to the premier when we had the premier on our show, premier nova scotia, like I also kind of threw out the idea of if craft brewers aren't on the shelves or aren't using the, you know, the government product like they, they should be, they should, they should have a little bit of adjustment to taxes. They shouldn't have to pay towards the same way that they do, cause in Nova Scotia they have to pay towards that government body that they don't use and if they can cut that, then you know what it'd be great to see them cut, you know, cut their prices if you could buy on-site and that would maybe encourage more people to go there. They could save some money going to the actual brewery and that might draw more people into what they're doing locally, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:There are so many benefits that government sometimes doesn't take into account. The government simply looks at the treasury, the tax that they're bringing in, and they don't look at the economic output. We haven't even talked about tourism yet, but in Ontario you know there's about 5 million tourists coming to craft breweries in Ontario every year and that should be taken into account by the government at the government-run liquor stores, that you need to look at this domestic industry more than just for the tax revenue they're bringing in. There is a spinoff economic benefit and therefore the government stores should be doing more to promote and support local manufacturers. For all those reasons I just said, it's not just about the tax on that beer that's going into the treasury, it's about the benefit that they bring that foreign-owned companies don't bring to the province.
Speaker 3:Honestly, 100%. I mean, I know myself I don't know, and I know Mike is the same, but no matter where I travel with my wife and my son, no matter where I travel, first thing I'm looking for is crapperies in the area. It's the number one thing that I'm looking for. I joked, you know, whatever it was a few years ago, uh, you know, every time I've gone to europe, uh, whether it be with my wife or I went with my cousin who actually lives up in uh, from you know, kind of lived in the oakville area. Um, we, I used to joke around saying it was my european pub crawl kind of thing, because I want to find those local breweries. I was just in utah, arizona, nevada, I looked up local breweries and we went there, we ate there, we, we had some drinks there, we may have bought beer to bring back to the, the airbnb.
Speaker 2:You know things like that every one of them's got a unique, really cool story to tell. Like it's just fun when you're out with your wife, you're traveling, your family or your buddies. It's just a great spot to go sit, chat with people, meet people, learn their story. I mean, that's what makes life so great. And, uh, I love this industry. Uh, uh again, having spent seven years in this, I'm fighting as hard as I ever have for them because I believe in what they represent to our, our province, in our country and that's why we do like what Mike and I do.
Speaker 3:What we do is, like you know, we're on Zoom here right now, but that's because we can't be in the same spot together. But we generally record these sessions in a local pub or at a local brewery in order to give them a shout out for their beers, for their you know the actual brewery, you know, just to give them a shout out for their beers, for their you know the actual brewery, you know, just to give them a local shout out, to kind of support that local and say this is where we're meeting and gathering and we're just sitting here having a chat like we used to do right before smartphones.
Speaker 1:We'll let you know. We're coming to Ontario. Scott, we're going to do a Canada tour.
Speaker 2:I was just going to extend the invitation that next time you're here, we'll.
Speaker 1:we won't do zoom, we'll do this face-to-face in a local Oakville craft brewery Sounds good and I'm going to move into wrapping this thing up, and Matt doesn't know about this, but I wrote five fun questions. We always do silly questions at the end of our show.
Speaker 2:All right.
Speaker 1:We did these with the premier and everybody celebrities, wherever we can get on our show. We always ask them a few fun questions at the end. You always ask him a few fun questions at the end. You can answer the question or you can take a sip of your beer. Okay, if you don't want to answer the question, fire away. All right cool.
Speaker 2:Question number one Toronto Maple Leafs or Ottawa Senators. Toronto Maple Leafs 100%. I bleed blue and white and have been a season ticket holder since 1972, when I was 10 years old and started going with my dad. I was at the game where Sittler got the 10 points. I was at the game Saturday night when we crushed the Habs and I'll be there tomorrow night when we crush the Sens.
Speaker 1:You hear that. Sorry, Ottawa.
Speaker 3:I should have worn my Leafs jersey for this. What was I thinking?
Speaker 1:Question number two IPA or Stout?
Speaker 2:IPA. There's my latest book Killer by Doug Gilmore. You wrote that. No, we had him as a guest speaker at our conference last week, so I got to meet him and got that book. But anyway, sorry.
Speaker 1:You won't believe my next question and I want to show you I'm not lying here.
Speaker 2:So favorite book Well, right now it's Killer by Doug Gilmore. There you go.
Speaker 1:Keep it simple. Yeah, a question I thought about there. Oh, sorry, I'll do this one first Favorite movie. What's a favorite movie that you really enjoy Anytime? President or pastor.
Speaker 2:I'm going to go way back because, uh, I'm in my 60s, early 60s. I am a star wars fanatic. I saw the original star wars no less than 15 times in 1977 when it came out, when I was 15 years old, and I now have, I have, we have four grown daughters and I have three grandkids. They are all, uh, star Wars fanatics. Amazing.
Speaker 3:Scott, I knew there was a reason why I liked you.
Speaker 2:You like craft beer, you like the leaves and you like Star Wars?
Speaker 3:Well, you know most people do, don't they Matt?
Speaker 2:They should.
Speaker 1:Okay, so this is a question on craft beers Outside of Ontario, because I don't think it's fair to ask you to say, a favorite craft brewery in Ontario where you know you're very engulfed there, but across Canada, out of the province of Ontario, what is a craft beer place that you remember that you really enjoyed? It could be in any province and just take your time with the answer.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to kind of sit on the fence on this one, because the first part I'll say is that no matter like Matt just said, no matter where I go in Canada to visit, I always look for the local craft breweries and I've never had a bad experience. But my most recent trip was out to Calgary and my peer who runs the Alberta Brewers Association gave me a couple of good tips and I went to some fantastic Calgary craft breweries. So cheers to those of you. I won't name names, but there were some fantastic ones. There was one and I can't remember the name, to be honest with you, but it had an 80s theme and, being born in the early 60s, the 80s were a great decade for me the music, everything, and when you walked into this brewery you felt like it was 1984 and it was fantastic.
Speaker 1:So you'll have to find the name and send it to us. Man, I'll give them the shout out it was it was called the 80s or something like that.
Speaker 2:Uh, but uh, I'll look it up. I just can't remember the exact name right now. But great questions. See, I didn't take a sip of my beer at all. I answered all of them.
Speaker 1:The last question I'm going to throw to Matt only because we ask every single guest this question and I'm sure he knows it.
Speaker 3:So I'll hand it to you, brother. All right, Scott. So what is one thing that you advice you could give us that can make the world a better place?
Speaker 2:Be kind to everyone, because you never know what the other person's going through. Just be kind to everyone.
Speaker 3:That is the running theme.
Speaker 1:It's crazy. I want to answer. Be kind, yeah, number one answer.
Speaker 3:Awesome.
Speaker 1:Cheers to you, Scott. This has been incredible.
Speaker 2:A lot of guys really appreciate it. I appreciate you having me on the show and can't wait for you to come to Ontario.
Speaker 1:We really love our beer, barley hops and yeast makes our days full of cheer from far and wide. We drink to the
