Afternoon Pint
Afternoon Pint is a laid-back Canadian podcast hosted by Matt Conrad and Mike Tobin. Each episode, they invite a special guest to join them at a pub or microbrewery to get to know them a bit better. Conversations cover a wide range of topics, including Entrepreneurship, business, Arts, pop culture, music, science, society, Life stories, experiences, you get the idea...
Our aim is to create a show for everyone (even non-Canadians.) We create a welcoming atmosphere where guests can share their perspectives with transparency. Essentially, Afternoon Pint is like heading to the pub after work to catch up with some friends through your headphones or stereo. We are Nova Scotia's #2 podcast, but we pretend we are number 1!
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Afternoon Pint
Liz LeClair - Breaking the Silence: NDAs, Consent, and Gender-Based Violence
This week we welcome Liz LeClair, in a fast paced and informative episode where we discuss how Canada is behind when it comes taking our role in standing up against gender based violence.
A columnist, leading fundraiser and volunteer with Can't Buy My Silence, Liz explains how NDAs have become weapons that protect abusers while re-traumatizing survivors. We dig into the disturbing evolution of non-disclosure agreements from their initial intention of preventing trade secrets to how they’ve been used silencing victims of harassment and assault.
These are difficult subjects and this episode handles each topic in an open, honest and unfiltered fashion that we feel our listeners enjoy most. We are hoping Dalhousie president Dr. Kim Brooks and the Honourable Premier Tim Houston can tune into as we want Nova Scotia to be the second province that puts steeper restrictions on NDAs. We’re already behind PEI on this!
To learn more or take action, visit Can't Buy My Silence online, sign their petition, or ask your business to take their pledge committing not to use NDAs in cases of harassment or assault.
Afternoon Pint stands firmly against violence against women! We need to keep this conversation going and make sure we are doing everything we can to protect one another out there… Please share this episode!
Kimia Nejat of Kimia Nejat Realty
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Cheers.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Afternoon Fight. I'm Mike Tobin, I am Matt Conrad. And who do you have with us today?
Speaker 1:Liz LeClaire.
Speaker 2:Liz LeClaire.
Speaker 3:All right. So, liz, what do we have here? What do you do? What do we have here? Yeah, what do we have here?
Speaker 1:That's a really good question. So I am oh my god, where do I start In order of importance? Rank importance I am the wife a very proud wife, a military spouse of a naval officer. Um, I am the stepmother of two teenage boys. I'm a fundraiser by profession and a shit disturber in my infinite, apparent limit amount of spare time. So I do a lot of political advocacy and advocacy work around gender-based violence, sexualized violence, workplace safety, you name it. And in particular, I'm a volunteer with an organization called Can't Buy my Silence, which is trying to get regulation around the misuse of nondisclosure agreements.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we'll jump into that. I saw your article today you know about a release, so maybe just tell people who haven't seen that article just a little bit what that was about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a friend of mine, jennifer Graves, was an employee, is an employee. She's been on long-term leave of Dalhousie University and was assaulted twice by a professor in the medical school and at a work sanctioned event. She disclosed that that happened. Then she also reported it through the union and, as part of the settlement agreement, was required to sign an NDA. Um, for your listeners who don't know what NDAs are, uh, they were originally out of the silicon valley in sort of like the 90s, around the time of the tech boom, to stop people from sharing proprietary information when they would jump from one company to another, and it was happening really frequently.
Speaker 1:They've now proliferated into like every aspect of our lives. You sign, you have a content, so they're that young.
Speaker 2:They're only from the 90s with Silicon Valley.
Speaker 1:Pretty much. I didn't realize that the current template.
Speaker 3:yeah, I remember when I worked at another company, I had to sign ndas because I was on an advisory board where I had to go up with like the ceo and other people and everything, and so there was things that were coming and I had to sign them. And that was really like you know, I never signed one until that point, kind of thing. But I kind of felt like they were always around.
Speaker 1:But I guess it makes sense because I grew up in the 90s, so it feels like everything was always around me there may have been a version of it, but I think the real, the current version that we're using now, is kind of more from that era Crazy. Yeah, they're in everything. So you can sign an NDA as part of your employment agreement. If you check your contract, you've probably signed something saying you won't disclose proprietary information.
Speaker 2:That's right, but then they've evolved to harassment. They've evolved to harassment. They've evolved to everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely everything Accidents, insurance claims, anything that basically, if you are receiving any kind of settlement, there's usually an NDA attached to it.
Speaker 2:The Nova Scotia.
Speaker 1:Human Rights Commission has one embedded in their agreement template. Pretty much every lawyer has used one.
Speaker 2:And they're usually to protect powerful businesses or protect companies or protect individuals.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think you know, when you think of NDAs in the original context, around proprietary information, of course, if you went from one place of employment to another and you shared, say, like a technology that was made at Apple with something at Google, you've given away information that you've learned in one workplace In a privileged situation In a privileged situation. What they've now done is basically said okay, so we're going to settle this complaint with you, but it's contingent on you signing a non-disparagement clause, meaning you'll never say anything bad about us publicly.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And an NDA saying that you will never talk about this ever happening.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:The one with the Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission actually was the one that I refused to sign. It was 2020. What went on there? So you don't want me asking, that's okay. I mean people could look my name up in lawsuit and I'm currently in a civil suit against one of the former founders of Clearwater Seafoods.
Speaker 3:I think you posted about that actually. Yes, you did, and he was in a lot of high-powered positions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, we're talking about one of the wealthiest people in the province.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's not a lot I can discuss right at the moment just because it's in litigation. My own experience of reporting workplace harassment, sexual harassment um my own experiences around sexual assault and seeing how badly the system fails you said that was just.
Speaker 3:That was just in 2020, is it? I've?
Speaker 1:I filed my complaint in 2020 2021 okay, um, I started experiencing this in 2013 when I first moved back here.
Speaker 3:Okay, I'd been living away for 10 years. Is that what like a personal experience is that? What kind of propelled you to be inspired to do this type of activism, or has that always been in you?
Speaker 1:I think my mom. If you were to ask her, she'd tell you I've always, always, always ended up doing advocacy work in some level, but this work with can't buy my silence has been particularly close to the heart, because almost every single person I've met that has filed a complaint or reported around racism, discrimination, ableism, you name it. Um, they've been asked to either sign an nda or have been or you know. A lot of us get threats. Whistleblowers get threats of defamation. I've had multiple defamation letters sent to me over the last.
Speaker 2:So is there usually a pretty nasty ultimatum if you don't sign the NDA.
Speaker 1:Well, okay, so I'll give you this Jennifer scenario. So Jennifer reported this, these assaults, to Dalhousie, and they agreed to settle with her to compensate her for the harm done. But she signed an NDA, which she outlined in the letter that she posted last night, that she was basically not allowed to report to Occupational Health and Safety, she wasn't allowed to report to regulators, she wasn't able to talk about her settlement with the police or law enforcement. So you can imagine if you're trying to hold someone accountable and you can't talk about what happened because you signed an NDA, and if you disclose what was in the NDA or what you signed on to, you lose your compensation. And a lot of people make the argument that NDAs a lot of women in particular. They say oh well, you've got the money now why do you need to keep talking about what's happened? But I think people make the mistake of thinking these are large amounts of money we're talking. On average, most settlements are somewhere in around $10,000.
Speaker 1:It barely would cover the cost of your legal fees.
Speaker 3:And it almost almost.
Speaker 1:You can't live off of that no um so jennifer actually offered to return her compensation and dell refused oh, wow um, she, she has fought them for the last 10 years and her example is really, I would say, terrible, horrific example of how ndas are being used to cover up really terrible crimes and that the universities, public institutions, nonprofits, charities, employers all use them Because what they want is for it to go away. Here's your money. Please stop talking about it.
Speaker 3:Well, everyone would famously know. If you don't know what an NDA is, everyone would know that that's what got Donald Trump into some hot water. Exactly, stormy Daniels. Or the Hockey Canada scandal, right? Or the Hockey Canada, yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:So that was actually one of the things I got really irate about was and I know a lot of people will probably disagree with me, but that Hockey Canada scandal came out and then the premier and the mayor had to decide whether or not to allow the world juniors to go ahead here in halifax and they decided to let it go ahead, regardless of the fact that this institution has been system systematically covering up gang rapes yeah hockey, canada and world juniors have there's.
Speaker 1:That one story is certainly something, but we know there's multiple cases of where the teams have gang raped women wow, and it's been covered up through settlements, so it's.
Speaker 1:It's one of those things where you know, when we talk about the solution to gender based violence, it can't just be that women are putting their hands up, screaming, saying like this is wrong. This is where we need male allies and men, and especially men in positions of power, saying you know what this isn't right. You know this is going to suck and there's a lot of contracts that are going to be broken, but this is the wrong thing for us to do is to host the games back in the same city where this first incident of assault happened in the first place. This is a really uplifting conversation.
Speaker 2:You know what I feel like. I'm getting real with it. I like it I appreciate it.
Speaker 3:We got real fast, yeah. But the NDA thing, like I was actually sitting in the legislature a year and a half or a year ago, or whatever. I was there because I was actually being thanked for my volunteer work, oh right, but I happened to be there when Elizabeth actually Smith McCrossin, elizabeth actually Smith-McCrossin.
Speaker 1:Submitted the NDA.
Speaker 3:Submitted the NDA thing to have it changed. She's an independent, so it wasn't really going anywhere, unfortunately. But I listened to what she had to say and I agree. Honestly, right in that moment I was like, yeah, this makes sense. It's ridiculous that people use these NDAs to just hush people up. I mean totally, totally, don't get me wrong. I understand the the business side of it. I understand it's like hey, we're gonna pay you enough money so that it doesn't damage our reputation. But it's like you know you're yeah, you're hiding crimes, you're buying people's silence. You're buying people's silence like hence what?
Speaker 3:the name of the organization and it's just one of those things where you're just kind of like you know the, the person who's in that position, and I mean, you would know this better than I would, but it just my understanding is like they're in such a situation where they they feel like, well, you know what, I'll just take the money because I'm I'm I'm hurting them a little bit, I'm gaining a little bit and I don't have to have my name dragged out, you know, in public, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I mean, I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding. I think as well, because it is very it's hard for people to understand it, because part of this is that it's done in silence and behind closed doors right.
Speaker 1:So how would you know what's happening? So, basically, what happened? You know one of the things. So one of our co-founders of the campaign is Zelda Perkins. She was the first woman to break her NDA with Harvey Weinstein. So she lives in London or just outside of London and Zelda broke her NDA with the full knowledge that there was a possibility that they'd come after her for the money that they had paid her. It was a possibility that they'd come after her for the money that they had paid her. It just so happened the timing it was the right time in history with the right amount of momentum um harvey weinstein was a prolific assaulter of people and and his companies had covered it up.
Speaker 1:But zelda has a really good line. She says you know, the compensation you receive is for the harm done, right period yeah and and it's only because there is no better mechanism available to us at this point. You know, restitution or or uh is is financial. Um, some people try restorative justice or they go through mediation and trying, but very rarely people who are predatory have any.
Speaker 2:They don't think they've done anything wrong harvey weinstein still claims, he never did anything wrong same as bill cosby back in the day right like, yeah, yeah yeah, um so yeah.
Speaker 1:Restitution, financial compensation, is the one tool we have so the money you're receiving is is to say I'm sorry this happened to you. We're acknowledging it. This is our restitution. The nda is an added layer of what we often refer to as institutional betrayal right. You've reported, You've been told that, yes, we believe you. You're given this money, but the one thing you're never allowed to do is ever talk to anybody again. And some of these NDAs have included things like you can't talk to a counselor.
Speaker 2:So how do you get past things like you?
Speaker 1:can't talk to a counselor. Wow, so how do you get past something?
Speaker 2:You can't talk to a counselor, you can't talk to a therapist, you can't grieve and you can't get yourself through this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and I think one of my colleagues, christina Fifield, has been very front and center. She was an advocate with the Mass Casualty Commission. She's done a lot. She's talked a lot about this publicly. You know she often says one of the things that's also really terrible is that if in a defamation case or if you do break your NDA, they will try and use your counseling records to prove that you've broken your NDA.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, now I got to ask you this, like, cause, I mean I just think from. I always think Canada is better bias, but but no, but honestly, like, like, and when it comes to ndas, like I mean, are we, I mean, on par with what america's doing, or no is canada better or worse?
Speaker 1:way worse.
Speaker 2:Worse canada is worse than the us by a long shot.
Speaker 1:So right now, prince edward island is the only jurisdiction that's passed legislation to ban ndas okay, um props to PEI. Yeah, small but mighty, we'll take it where we can. But the thing is is that in the states I think we're now at 27 states, including Idaho Is it Idaho? That's a state right.
Speaker 2:Or is that a city? Yeah, so the Democratic states in the US basically no, a lot of Republican states too are getting Nndas. Yeah, it's shocking, yeah 27 states plus uh.
Speaker 1:Federally, there's a ban on federal employees being forced to sign non-disclosure agreements in cases of discrimination amazing. Um, so we're dragging our ass in canada, yeah ireland as a country has passed a bill, um, and then the uk right now is debating it as well. Um, so right now, canada is actually really lagging. It's quite really shockingly bad, especially considering that you know we have had some of the worst examples of where this has been used to cover up. Like Hockey, canada was such a mess.
Speaker 1:We thought at that point for sure, the federal government and the governments would all I think a lot of people thought Hockey Canada was just going to implode.
Speaker 2:That was going to be it, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's amazing how resilient these organizations are, right. The one thing you'll notice is that you're not hearing a lot about what's happening with that investigation.
Speaker 2:No, no, nothing.
Speaker 1:Since you brought it up today.
Speaker 2:I didn't think about it until I was read that whenever it happened. And that's a non-profit right. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 1:So that woman can't speak. She's been NDA'd.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So she'll never be able to tell her story unless they release her from it.
Speaker 3:And your friend was recently released from it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, so we. Basically, I got notified in November that all of a sudden, dalhousie had changed their sexualized violence policy on their website and that all of a sudden, there was this line included that said we will not force victims of sexual assault to sign an NDA Not that they won't do it but, they just won't force them to.
Speaker 2:Okay. Does that mean they reverse the past in the sense of other people could? No.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I mean there's been no official statement from Dow around what they're really doing and they've done it very secretly.
Speaker 2:I mean, they should be a leader in this. You would think yeah.
Speaker 1:Especially considering. Kim Brooks, who is the president of the university, is involved with a project called the Watershed Project legal project and they in 2017, made a very strong declarative statement that NDAs were being abused, with victims of assault and harassment Right. So I don't know what she's doing or who's giving her advice, but it's bad legal advice.
Speaker 3:It's bad PR advice.
Speaker 1:I would encourage her, if she listens to this podcast, to change her mind.
Speaker 2:We'll add her in this one. Yeah, you feel free, feel free to reach out.
Speaker 1:We've had three, I think three.
Speaker 3:DAL, employees, professors, whatever on this podcast. We got a little bit of attention from Dal here.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, maybe you'll have better luck than we have. They won't even meet with us.
Speaker 2:That sucks.
Speaker 1:It does. To me this is like it's part of a bigger systemic problem, which is like I think there's a lot of PR firms in this city and other cities and a lot of lawyers and PR firms tell organizations just be a gray rock, just disappear into the background, ignore the problem until it disappears because, like you said, people have forgotten about hockey. Canada right right the longer.
Speaker 1:You just ignore the problem. Well, you know, yes, the general public moves on, but the person who's the victim and their family and friends have to live with the outcomes.
Speaker 3:There's a science Like there is a science. I don't know if you. I know you do, but I don't know if you ever watch.
Speaker 2:Uh, it's always sunny in Philadelphia but they have the 24 hour news cycle that episode.
Speaker 1:And it's like, honestly, it's true, people's memories are so short, yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, it's crazy, like even just now. I mean, you know we're in the middle of political stuff going on with our country. Trump yeah, not even just.
Speaker 1:Trump. I'm talking about just our federal stuff. Yes, with our federal government.
Speaker 3:We went from no joke two months ago, the liberals and the approval rating being at 16%, to now. Just the poll vote today is at 42%. Yep and the conservatives are down in like the mid to low 30s, like and the conservatives are down in the mid to low 30s. There's already a seven-point spread, or whatever now Depends on the poll, but yeah, all of them now, man, all of them now.
Speaker 3:Seriously, if you look at the ones today, they vary, but the liberals are in the lead in every single one of them at this point, yeah, so that's just two months ago from people literally saying like fuck Trump.
Speaker 2:But you say 24 hours news cycle Donald Trump like oh my gosh, it's just you know the things he can, the ability.
Speaker 3:He's a machine gun of a mess Unbelievable.
Speaker 1:Unbelievable, but he's, but he's, you know people think it's chaotic, but it is strategic, right, like I wrote about this on one of my sub stacks, you know, like flooding the zone or like overwhelming people, and he's really good at distraction, right. Like dangling this shiny thing over here and distracting you with the stupidity. Dangling this shiny thing over here and distracting you with the stupidity, but meanwhile, behind the scenes.
Speaker 1:There's a bunch of legal things happening that he's keeping you. He has no problem keeping the attention on himself while all these nefarious like. The thing is that what really scares me with politicians is it's not the politicians themselves, the really loud, bombastic ones, it's their staffers yeah, and the policy makers the beer?
Speaker 1:well, the bureaucrats, you know, but more like the oh, like chief of staff and, yeah, the chief, I would just tell you, for me here in nova scotia, there is a really disturbing level of centralization of power happening within the premier's office, whether it's the conservative party, the ndp or the liberals. I don't like it. There's a lack of democratic process around how decision making is happening. You know people people I actually heard I can't remember who was talking about this is that there's this we forget. There's a need for friction, like the difference. The reason why there's a difference between private sector and government is that friction is important to slow things down just enough for you to be able to have a look at it and make sure that you're not making the wrong decision.
Speaker 1:It's a silver second thought type of thing well, you know, when you're a venture capitalist, you're a tech founder, whatever, yeah, iteration and changing things all the time chaos is actually. It can sometimes be a really um for foundational part, part of like building something, but when we're talking about the institutions that impact people, you have to be careful and methodical about how it happens and the reason why, consultation is important is that the people who are most impacted by the decisions you're making should have the most feedback.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That is not easily accessible. I'm sorry, I'm totally distracted. There is a cat on a leash.
Speaker 2:We're at Oxford.
Speaker 1:I know Oxford Tap Room.
Speaker 3:That's a really great segue just to quickly say that we actually are at the Oxford Tab Room and actually Liz was actually saying earlier how much she likes this place because they let pets here.
Speaker 1:And then there's a cat that comes in on a leash. I love this so much.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry the other thing is, I brought popcorn on course just before this episode and it's just killing me staring at it here while we're talking oh, you can eat it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, for sure, and just quickly. I mean, like last week you had the matcha and they didn't have it.
Speaker 3:It's already all gone, so I didn't get to try it so I had their like. It's not a spruce beer, but it's an evergreen beer.
Speaker 2:That's what I got too.
Speaker 1:Oh, you got the evergreen.
Speaker 3:I like it. This is my second one. Actually, I had one while I was waiting for you. I can tell Okay, they also have the nut brown, but they also have the PB&J. I had that last week. And that's their raspberry wheat and their nut brown. Mixed together, it tastes like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God.
Speaker 3:It's really good. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, sorry, that was a real wide swing from one area to another.
Speaker 2:That was a really wide swing, yeah, so people listening to this are like.
Speaker 1:And then she said about a cat.
Speaker 2:This popcorn break was brought to you by Garrison.
Speaker 3:But yeah. So I guess kind of, rewinding back to the before the cat situation. But yeah, so kind of, I guess, back to how people have short memories and stuff.
Speaker 1:Like my brain, like I'm like a squirrel, hundred percent, that's like.
Speaker 3:it's like oh yeah, no yeah, um, but yeah, so the uh with the, whether it be politically or whether it be events in whatever, like people tend to forget. You know, um, people were literally saying you know, like fuck trudeau and all this stuff, and now all of a sudden trudeau's gone and all of a sudden that poor whoever's making those slags is out of business.
Speaker 1:I think at this point, maybe a hundred percent, maybe. I think he's done All right. He's done All right, he's done well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he had to get a solid, good run.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he did Okay.
Speaker 2:There's one outside like where my kid took the bus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh my gosh, oh man, yeah, I just. I mean, it's a vibe for sure, it's a choice, 100% I won't go there.
Speaker 3:I like to make the because of who they are as a people. I like to make the joke that they've now created their own sexual orientation. They're just attracted to Trudeau.
Speaker 1:That's true. Well, yeah, now he's apparently. I think I saw a picture of him shopping at.
Speaker 2:Canadian Tire. I think everybody wants to.
Speaker 1:It's the most singles like single divorced father move of all time.
Speaker 2:Let's go buy that Roomba. That's the best place to get your kitchenware, though I tell you?
Speaker 1:Canadian Tire is a good sponsor. Are you guys sponsored by Canadian Tire? No, no, no, Canadian Tire, you need to sponsor the podcast. That would be awesome.
Speaker 3:That would be cool, isn't it? Yeah, we could do that.
Speaker 1:Well combined forces between my fundraising and your podcast will be all right there you.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I also wanted to talk a little bit about you. I know we talked about things, but you've been involved in also just a lot of Speaking of the cat. That's where I was going, thank you.
Speaker 1:Speaking of the cat, good segue.
Speaker 3:No, yeah, because you were also involved in the SPCA, so you've been involved in a lot of things where you're kind of looking out for other people, whether it be the SPCA, the Charity Report, the QE2 Foundation, whether it be the SPCA, the Charity Report, the QE2 Foundation and you did stuff with Dow, I think fundraising- right, yes, I have been around yeah yeah. So you really have kind of. It seems like you've dedicated much of your life to kind of looking out for others.
Speaker 1:Oh well, that's a nice way of putting it. So I think we were just talking with a gentleman downstairs.
Speaker 3:So I did my undergrad at dow in political science and that was early pete, just in case anyone wanted to know yeah, she met early pete, he's oh he's he's a character maritime legend, early pete, yeah, yeah so we were chatting.
Speaker 1:He's infinitely younger than I am. I think I'm a good decade ahead of him. But um yeah, so I did my undergrad at Dal and I had this big plan I wanted to go work for the UN, um and I was gonna do you know, all kinds of fun things and save the world, and I actually got really lucky.
Speaker 1:I was doing my master's in international public relations and I was a huge dork, so I also did Model UNs and one of the women that was speaking at a conference we had actually worked at the World Food Program and she offered me an internship for a summer. So I went down to New York for four months worked for them, found out. I hate PR mainly because I can't do anything other than tell the truth.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the opposite of what PR is.
Speaker 1:It really is no offense. I know some of my friends are PR people, but no offense. But yes, sanitizing conversation to make it more palatable for the general public wasn't my idea of a good time. So I ended up being responsible for the walk to end hunger in New York City and I found that I really loved the combination of doing something tangible and then seeing the results in real time.
Speaker 2:How did that help you get roped into New York city? Do you want to help me with that organization?
Speaker 1:Well, I got this internship at the world food program and their headquarters is in New York.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, yeah, yeah. Okay, I had to connect the dots there, no that's okay, that's super interesting.
Speaker 1:No, it's okay. I was, yeah, I was at a model un conference nerding out and, uh, the speaker offered me a job, which was great, so so cool.
Speaker 3:You guys have done well at the uh un model un. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, I was.
Speaker 1:I was pretty, I think I the only thing I ever got to do was like ecuador, so I didn't have a whole lot of power, but you know, you can be creative, um and uh, yeah. So I mean, from there I just realized fundraising was my jam and I loved being able to tell a story and then getting convincing people to give to that cause. What I didn't end up loving was there was this really insidious dark side. You know the two sides of the coin. If we're going to go for the Star Wars, you know the dark side. The dark side of fundraising is that there's a lot of people with a lot of money and a lot of power who take advantage of the situation because fundraising is a highly feminized profession, a lot of young women who really care about things and a lot of the donors were older and had a lot of influence, and they take advantage of the situation well, yeah and uh.
Speaker 1:I had many experiences where I thought I was having a conversation with people about the work I was doing and it ended up not being that.
Speaker 2:Interesting I've been assaulted.
Speaker 1:I've been harassed. You know. I remember we used to do events for one organization up at Fox Harbor and you know half the staff were basically told this is what you do and keep to yourselves, because by the end of the night all of these men will get quite gropey.
Speaker 3:Oh, geez Well yeah.
Speaker 1:So I know it's, it's, it's, it's funny, you know it's something that everyone knew about but nobody really talked about. And then, when you know, and people have different feelings about it with Me Too- Me. Too. Certainly I think there are parts of it that were harmful. The naming and shaming of things definitely, I don't think helped men feel that this was a liberatory movement.
Speaker 3:We talked a little bit about that yeah. Well, she was talking the difference and I'll let you explain it no, you go ahead. Well, no, it's your thing, but she was explaining the difference. It was the difference between shame and guilt.
Speaker 1:Thank you so yeah, she was explaining that so you can explain that Sure? Yeah, I mean, I think one of the big problems with movements any movement, whether we're talking about racial equity, gender equity, whatever is that sometimes we focus too much on guilt. Like you should feel bad that this happened. Guilt is not a healthy or helpful emotion to have, because most people can't move past guilt into actual action, feeling, uh, you know, or sorry guilt, sorry guilt can be a useful emotion.
Speaker 1:I gotta redo this okay, all right, let's start from again okay so guilt can actually be a useful emotion, because people so you know they often talk about like feeling guilty about being a white person and the privileges you have. Guilt is something that you can say okay, I feel guilty about this, but I I, you know, maybe I didn't have any say in how I was born and where I started, but I can also be a part of the solution. Shame is the emotion that's not helpful. Shame doesn't help anyone do anything. People that feel shame it means that they're not talking through it, they're not working through the problem. Shame it means that they're not talking through it, they're not working through the problem. I think some of the problems with liberatory movements is that sometimes there's a lot of shame involved, right like shame on you oh, big time.
Speaker 2:That's a huge problem and I think I think that was something that really made a lot of people left go more center or even more right over the last five years.
Speaker 2:I agree, over the last five years I big time feel that and that's when you said that I was like, oh yeah, 100, because like there was parts where where I mean I'll talk more about america than canada here for a second, but where people, folks on the left side there, I mean they got pushed right. I mean they were they? They weren't left enough, they weren't upset enough or they weren't doing all of the things or checking all the boxes.
Speaker 1:The performative, performative stuff doesn't help, right right it's boxes.
Speaker 2:The performative, performative stuff doesn't help, right, right it's if you're and I think that's why dei has collapsed so spectacularly is because, yeah, and that sucks too, it does suck because I think there are some really important things that were happening.
Speaker 1:But when it becomes a check mark or a check box that you're trying to do, as a business, yeah versus a values alignment or trying to change culture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we're having the same problem with gender-based violence, um, here in this province, and shifting the narrative is that I don't think a lot of men see themselves as part of the solution and I was saying downstairs uh, it's like racism can't be fixed just by black people saying that it exists. White people have to want to change the culture in order for racism yeah, to change yeah so I think um, I think it's the same thing, right, I think?
Speaker 2:we have these spaces and places where women and it's tough, because what you just said there I could jump on that. Even, like you said, white people need to fix it, and I mean well, everybody needs to fix it like, in a sense, yeah, but that's exactly, it's all. But that's the trouble. When we start talking about these issues, it's like nothing you can say is perfectly right.
Speaker 1:No, we need space for imperfection, it's really tough.
Speaker 2:We need a lot more space for like did these people? I mean, I'm someone here. Here's a flaw about myself. There's a 90% chance I'm going to pronounce your name wrong and I like you and I'm a good person. I don't want to pronounce anyone's name wrong and I like you and I'm a good person. I don't want to pronounce anyone's name wrong, but I'll pronounce everything wrong that I might see in the run of a day.
Speaker 3:He's going to call you Linda later. That's fine.
Speaker 1:That's actually my mom's name. You can call me Linda if you want to. I'm terrible with names. I'm terrible at this.
Speaker 2:But these aren't things where I'm a bad person. These aren't things where I ever want to be do any malicious harm to anyone. These are things that I gotta work out.
Speaker 3:Maybe pick up a phonics book or a memorization course or but also, at the same time, you can just be humble about it and just be like oh, yeah, I messed up, right it's.
Speaker 2:It's no different than, if you like, misgender right right you say something wrong and then someone corrects you just like oh, I'm sorry, but the problem at, though, was like people weren't getting the chance to mess up there were. There were so many instances we saw in the last few years where people got pushed into being labeled as something they were not, and then they began to almost live that role. Consequentially, they got pushed into a corner and they were told they were something that they didn't feel that they were, but they said okay, if that's what you think I am, that's what I'll be.
Speaker 2:I think that's the case for some people. So yeah, I think that's.
Speaker 3:I think it certainly happened more than once and I think like, and that that's one of the things. Like you know, I consider myself like I don't know. I always like to say I'm in the middle, but in some cases I'm very left on some things and but it's. It's one of those sometimes where it's like sometimes you're just like not left enough and I'm not someone who I'm stubborn enough that you know you can't push me anywhere. But I've seen people who I was like I thought I was a little bit more aligned with and then all of a sudden I'm like they start saying things and I'm just kind of like yeah, I mean, I think they got pushed right they got.
Speaker 3:It was like someone was like you're not left enough, so you're just right, right. And then then all of a sudden they're just kind of like, well, this side's not really treating me all that well and you know, I'm just going to go over here, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think like we were talking about this downstairs as well, I think the right I think your friend Pete was saying this and I think it's true is that the right's done a really good job of creating a bigger tent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think the left has done a really bad job of inclusion ironically. And it has been a bit of an Olympics to kind of like who's the most virtuous, who's the most oh yeah.
Speaker 2:So I mean, that's a challenge to the left. It's like if someone is on your team and they're rooting for you, let them in. Yeah, right and in perfection. I mean, I think my husband's a really good example of that.
Speaker 1:I mean so. He's grew up in rural PEI in Rustico. His parents are coming from a small town, you know, and he lives with somebody who espouses very vocal values around certain things. But the difference is is that we're in relationship with one another, and when I say in relationship, I mean like so we're doing that right now. We're building a relationship together by having a conversation. It's so easy on social media to not talk to one another.
Speaker 3:We yell at each other.
Speaker 1:So I think what we're missing is the relationship building piece. I think what the right's done a really good job of is building relationships.
Speaker 2:Yes, I agree with that. It's a thing that I of is building relationships.
Speaker 1:Yes, I agree with that, right. Yeah, it's. It's a thing that I think is really missing, and I think also pete. I feel like pete should be on this podcast he's gonna listen to this.
Speaker 2:He told me he's gonna be on a future show.
Speaker 1:Here you go, well he was also saying you know, like, um, what is, what's the response? And there isn't one right now, it's just fracturing, right yeah, fract yeah.
Speaker 1:Fracturing into smaller pieces, and I think you know people say center is not far enough left. But I think you know, like there are a lot of people that are just not comfortable with maybe being where you're at. But where are they Like, where are they in the journey? There's a journey for all of us, right? So to me, gender-based violence, intimate partner violence, we're not going to solve it in this province unless we are having these conversations with men.
Speaker 2:What are the first steps for men? Do you think I mean that's a hard thing to ask? No, I think this is a great starting point.
Speaker 1:You're both offering a platform and an audience of people that might listen to this, who may not have had this opinion before, and then, hearing this, we'll be be like you know what? Liz leclair is not a raging lunatic who's like running around because I think, I think that's the other thing.
Speaker 2:I don't know she's been nothing but crazy.
Speaker 1:The whole time it's linda. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the other thing is in politics, it's easy for politicians to paint the opposition as fringe, yeah Right 100%.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So I think, if we can center things in relationship like this is about relationships that we have with our employers, relationships we have with our colleagues and the people around us Like how can you have a relationship built when you can't talk about what happened to you? That, for me, has always been at the core of this.
Speaker 2:That's the core of those NDAs. For sure. It isolates people. How do you ever solve the problem? It isolates people.
Speaker 1:It is putting them in a dark corner and saying just go away. That doesn't help people heal. No yeah.
Speaker 3:And when we first kind of connected and we were trying to get you to come on the show. I haven't seen much released in the last couple months but uh, up to that point there had been a lot of see. I mean I don't know if it's uh, I mean one is a lot, one is too many, but oh no, there's a lot. There was there was. It seemed like there's a lot of yeah, you saw like spousal murders. Yep, that happened just in like a six, eight month span or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, something like that and actually in one of them was.
Speaker 3:One of them was a past guest and someone who's affiliated with us was Steve. I was actually with him on his day one of his 99 journey and I was sitting there at a moose head game with him and he got a text and one of the victims was that woman in dark. He knew her. He got a text saying like this is what happened like I guess her ex-husband just showed up at her house and shot her and shot himself, yeah, yeah yeah, it was so so I mean going back.
Speaker 2:So what's? What's the problem here? We got untreated mental health problems, probably deep with that dude right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm sure I think you have to be a little bit like.
Speaker 1:History of family violence.
Speaker 3:Yeah right.
Speaker 2:He probably witnessed it when he was a child, and I mean, are there chances of and I'm not calling this, I don't know the case, but, like you know, are police taking these calls seriously when they happen? Right A police taking these calls seriously when they happen. Um right, a lot, of, a lot of women don't report to police. Yeah, because, frankly, you know, well they come, they go, well they also are like if they didn't put a hands on you.
Speaker 2:We can't do anything about it. Yeah, yeah, and I mean that, that's yeah. So so what do you do there, right? So you're like, how does this person get out when they're trapped and they don't know anyone?
Speaker 1:we. We don't create a lot of spaces for women. To say this feels dangerous, but I also love this person and I still want to figure out how to help them right sure we. We create places for women to flee to, we create programs for them to get treatment, but the men end up either in jail and, like you know, that's a tough thing to flee and leave your life, because that's her life too right, you know Exactly why do you have to leave, especially if you have children.
Speaker 2:Because this guy or whatever right, why do you have to leave?
Speaker 3:That doesn't make sense and, honestly, in these types of situations, is jail really the right place for them?
Speaker 1:No, I mean rehabilitation doesn't happen in jail.
Speaker 3:If you ever wanted to feel out dogs here.
Speaker 2:I think the dog just saw the cat and we're having another popcorn break, yeah.
Speaker 3:But I kind of feel that, like, if you have I mean don't get me wrong, there's there are definitely just some guys out there that are just a piece of shit.
Speaker 1:There's some. There's generally pieces of shit, human beings everywhere, I know, but I'm talking about like in in.
Speaker 3:You know, 99.9% of the case, it's men who are abusing women. So, realistically, I mean, yes, there are probably just guys out there that are just pieces of shit. However, there are probably a good portion of men who need help and they don't know how to do it and they don't have emotional intelligence, whatever right, and I would argue that putting them in a jail cell with criminals is probably not going to fix this problem right it's, I think it's.
Speaker 1:It's symptomatic again of like what we were just talking about, like ndas are one way, but the other way of getting rid of a problem is locking people up and saying put them here and then we don't have to see them, and deal with them.
Speaker 1:It's the same thing, right. It's the easier, less complicated but infinitely more harmful choice I actually so. This is going to be, and I don't know how your listeners are going to feel about this. So, if you read the 3,000 page report and if you read a lot about the um mass casualty, gabriel wartman, a person whose name does not get mentioned very often. He experienced severe abuse as a child.
Speaker 1:He witnessed horrific things and I'm not making an excuse for what he did yeah but people call people monsters and we forget that monsters come from something something has happened to someone they are creative, yeah I mean, he was a child at one time. Um, I grew up. I grew up in scarborough, ontario, when paul bernardo was on the loose so I was 14 years old when he was going around grabbing girls.
Speaker 1:It was, but also too, like you look at his upbringing and there's, there's a story there. I'm not saying that these people, it's not an excuse for behavior, but I think we often forget it's easier for us to point at something and say this person's a horrible monster of a human being than to say what are all the ways in which we failed everyone for this to happen?
Speaker 3:do you think that that's people's way of like, kind of saying, like, almost like disassociating, saying like that can never be me, because that person's a monster, of course.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but like I mean, what I think they should do is go back in time and get people at a younger age, Help men find inner peace.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like you know, that's a huge thing. Teach them about talking about feelings.
Speaker 2:This guy right here found that himself, he found that through reading, he found that by accident almost right you know how do I calm down my angry thoughts.
Speaker 2:You know I want to punch that guy right now, like you know. Like you know. But like I was, I never wanted to be abused with the women, but I, you know, carry anger with me, right? You know we all do right. How do you, how do you see through that? How do you understand your own emotions a little bit better so you don't go out and you hurt somebody?
Speaker 3:yeah, right, yeah. So I heard something on instagram, just not like I think it was like two days ago and like I think I may even send it to you and take this with the right context.
Speaker 1:I do think it's relative, take it with the assumption that this is coming from a good place everyone listening like take this from the right context.
Speaker 3:It's real. It speaks to something, though, and and what it was? It was this guy who said that men are associated with two emotions anger and fine.
Speaker 1:Wasn't it Bill Burr Was it.
Speaker 3:Bill Burr.
Speaker 1:It was Bill Burr.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, no, no. It was a brand new Hulu special. It just came out last week. Is that what it is? Yeah, he said, there's only two of them.
Speaker 3:Okay, it was yeah because Bill Burr is one of my favorites.
Speaker 1:Anger and fine. I'm allowed to be angry. Anger and fine.
Speaker 3:But because he said something like because basically he's like, he's like all those other emotions he's like, we all feel those other emotions he's like, but we're not allowed to talk about them because that's gay. Yes, Right, and take that with the right context. No, I know, but that's the problem like.
Speaker 1:It just makes me really sad because I think what? What the deaths of the last six months have been has been an expression of pain of our society. We, I think it's. I think, as nova scotians, we really have to sit and look at the last nine people that have died due to intimate partner violence. Um, and okay, so I should also say, like, sometimes people find this really confusing, like what's the difference between gender-based violence, intimate partner violence, domestic violence? So gender-based violence is like the big umbrella that we use for everything Harassment, assault, you know, catcalling, whatever. All of this stuff can fit under that umbrella.
Speaker 1:Intimate partner violence is somebody that you consider to be your closest like partner, like a spouse or you know, whatever um, domestic violence is sort of interchangeable, but there's also a term that we now use called femicide, which is that women are being targeted specifically. Right, because one of the deaths actually was a was a man that killed his mother of the nine so like it's not just partners it can be children, male but male children, and I think again, it's this death that we're seeing is an unex, is a sort of an outcome of unexpressed anger and disappointment and hurt and feeling disconnected from society.
Speaker 1:And we need men to heal, because until men heal, these deaths are going to continue to happen and I would love to figure out how to be a part of that, because I want men to be healthier.
Speaker 1:I have two teenage boys. I want them both to be able to express their feelings. I don't want them to feel like the only way that they can really get out their frustration is to either hit something or hit somebody. You know, like I it's. How can you cry, how can you just like, can you cry, cry, can you cry about something that's hurt you?
Speaker 3:that's okay yeah, it's not so I'm putting air quotes here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah it's such an antiquated, outdated and I think you know it's also like the fear of the other is such a big proponent of how we like the way the trans community is being isolated and sort of targeted.
Speaker 2:It's just an easy way for again, sort of like it's I, I when I see the trans community like targeted. I see you're seeking somewhere to put that anger or that you know, and we all, anger and misunderstanding are always aligned yeah, and that's the thing they don't understand, because they don't.
Speaker 3:You know, you never grew up.
Speaker 2:That way you don't feel like putting on a dress today. What? What does they want to do it? Like you know, like that's the core thought, right, like and that's where it starts. And then you get weird. And then you, you're a straight man and you're scared. You're like, oh god, like you know, I don't want to accidentally take a man home, like that that's what a straight guy thinks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, I appreciate you both being so honest. No, no, but that's how a straight guy is like wired right.
Speaker 2:You know, and so then you're like you've got to take some time and really see and understand. This is way beyond you and your architect of thought and the way your genetics were built and the way you were designed right.
Speaker 1:This is somebody with a completely different pile of problems from you yeah right, and also just someone who wants to live their life in the most authentic way possible, would you?
Speaker 2:rather see them not be upside the earth. Are you really that evil?
Speaker 1:can I ask you a question, though, like do you feel like it's a little bit of jealousy? That like straight men are seeing trans people and being like, wow, this person's choosing to do something really brave that I might not be able to do. I sincerely.
Speaker 2:I mean, I appreciate that question Me personally. I don't think I'm jealous and I think that in all honesty, I feel really sorry for someone that doesn't get to be their true self. I know how hard it is to be yourself when you're a straight guy right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's a white Newfoundlander wanting to be a rapper, there you go. That's hard enough, right I?
Speaker 1:got my own complex set of things to navigate through. I can't even get through that one, yeah, so there you go, but like you know.
Speaker 2:So if it's hard for me just to navigate through life as who I am, I was born. I always wanted to be bigger and be good at football. That was not a skill I ever acquired. Like you know, things like that were challenging for me. I mean, I couldn't imagine having the challenges that someone, someone faces that felt they were born in the wrong body yeah, right that that's a big thing for me.
Speaker 3:It's like I I'm always been kind of like even though I never understood um, the uh, like the trans mentality of what they have to go through and what I didn't always understand, that I still always like, felt, like I stood for bodily autonomy right. I still felt you should always have that right to just live your life. You know we have one life to live and you should be happy and, you know, want to exist and the case is is that many of them don't, because they can't be themselves.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, I mean, I think it's the same kind of narrative that comes around when women wear certain clothing. It's like you know the the whole thing when you've been assaulted. Well, what were you wearing?
Speaker 2:and how did you behave? The question's been around forever.
Speaker 1:It keeps projecting the problem onto the victim and not onto the person who. I think we have to sort of change the script around. Okay, well, not finger pointing, but what is it? Why do we feel so comfortable perpetuating these stereotypes about all of these people? Right, and you asked me about intersectionality. What is?
Speaker 3:what is it?
Speaker 1:and so I would say, like I came from a place, like I grew up in scarborough in a very white, predominantly white neighborhood, right and um, but surrounded by lots of communities of culture and different communities of you know, different people with different backgrounds, and but I was always very much in a white family, living in a white neighborhood, kind of white picket fence, whatever and I I always thought feminists, feminism was just about women, like how do we change men, get men to understand? And it wasn't until I started really spending time in community with black women and women of color, trans women, that they were like okay, you're a woman, but you're a white woman with white privilege, right, so there's a layer there, right, that you take that and you change the color of your skin. You change, you cannot not be black right, you cannot not be you know,
Speaker 1:whatever, and it's so. When I say intersectional feminist, the reason I put that there is not. It's not for people straight white men to be like, okay, great, she's an intersectional feminists. The reason I put that there is not. It's not for people straight white men to be like, okay, great, she's an intersectional feminist. It's more for me signaling to the people that I know need to see that that I'm not just a white feminist which is like a white woman being like oh, I want the vote and the right to do this, but fuck all you people, I'm, I'm good, I got through the door I'm done it's.
Speaker 1:It's about keeping that door open and bringing everyone through with you because, but, at the same time, I have a responsibility with the privilege as I have to help share that story and to explain that I don't always do a great job of it. I fuck up all the time. I make lots of mistakes we all do, um, but the whole thing is it's if we don't keep talking about it or being in relationship with one another, then nothing ever changes. Um, I think one of the things that's really hard for me is the people who have power, who refuse to sit down and have these conversations yeah right politicians so.
Speaker 2:So back to the root of where we started this conversation, like way back.
Speaker 3:Actually, just before we do that, I just want to mention something, because you talked about how the different relationships that people have with violence and within that, and it can be mother, father, grandmother, whatever I just wanted to mention, just bring up because we were going to be doing this like a month ago, which was right around Nova Scotia's holiday in February, which is Heritage Day, which not Family Day, it's Heritage Day, which is an awesome holiday that we have, which celebrates Nova Scotians in our history, and this year was Nora Bernard, and if you don't know who Nora Bernard is, I suggest you go read up. But you know the quick Coles notes is she was an Indigenous woman who was involved in the residential schools and she was actually a really like drive from nova scotia driving force that brought forth the truth and reconciliation. Like this started when they started digging up uh, the bodies and stuff like that, like she was a big part of that movement and uh, why I bring it up now is because she was actually murdered by her grandson in her home.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when, decade ago, I think Wow.
Speaker 1:I think so. Yeah, so it was maybe 12? Holy shit, 10 to 12 years ago. Yeah, it's untreated trauma comes out in horrific ways.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I think the generations of trauma that Indigenous communities have suffered.
Speaker 3:That's what made me when you said that.
Speaker 2:That that's what made me kind of think and connected that with that holiday. Simple question for me just uh, ndas, um, so where? What's our first stop in, in eliminating these? Do you think what could everybody do? What could people like us do? Yeah, kind of help say hey look, we want to uh, do what other countries and provinces are doing and eliminate these.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that question. There's a couple of things so you can go to Camp by my Silence. Our website. We have a business pledge. So if you wanted to ask your business to make a pledge to commit to not using so, I just want to be really clear with yourselves and the listeners as well. So we're not asking to ban them altogether. What we're saying is they shouldn't be used in these specific cases.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%, it's different, like you were saying at the Silicon Valley. If I'm working on the new app, the private information is fine. I can't go share that with Google.
Speaker 1:So we've asked the Chambers of Commerce and businesses to consider signing the pledge. Again, this is not about finger it's just saying we know we may have used them in the past, but we're going to commit not to use them this way moving forward. The other is that you can call your MLA and there is a bill, I think it's Bill 14. Right now, the NDB have resubmitted the legislation which is outlines how we would regulate the misuse of NDAs, and somebody sort of said to me you know like why does it need to be legislation? So to me it's a lot like smoking or like seatbelts. Right, we knew that they weren't good. It wasn't good for us not to wear seatbelts and it wasn't good for us to smoke.
Speaker 1:I mean like we're sitting here right now today in a bar and it's not filled with smoke. When I right now today in a bar and there is, it's not filled with smoke when I was here in the 90s in going to university, this place would have been full of cigarettes um. So people had the option to go smoke outside, but they didn't because, it was easier for them to do it.
Speaker 1:And when we talk about friction right yeah sometimes we need friction in order to make something less palatable so that people will change their behavior. Um, right now it's still so easy to use NDAs and so many people are still like not knowing what their rights are. It's easy for a lawyer to put this in front of somebody and say, okay, just sign this and we'll give you the compensation for what's happened? What we need is that to be regulated, because it's not changing fast enough. Every day that we let this happen is there's more and more and more and more people.
Speaker 2:Can we put a link on the description if you want to pledge or if you want to? Is there? Is there something where, like, people can just sign up and have their name on something that they're against this?
Speaker 1:yes, yeah, we have a petition that we're trying to circulate. Um uh, the other thing that you can do is just talk to people about it yeah um and share the podcast share the podcast, share with your friends, share Absolutely. And I think, at the end of the day, also just like I really need the premier as the decision maker on this- he's the one that's holding us back, but what a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2:We got rid of this in Nova Scotia and joined PEI.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, the leader of Canada.
Speaker 1:Well, we are in conversation with the New Brunswick government.
Speaker 2:There you go, government I don't like being seconded to New Brunswick on anything. I give PEI a pass. Pei's pretty cool man.
Speaker 3:They're alright, they're little.
Speaker 1:My in-laws and everybody we can't lose to New Brunswick on this Nova Scotians is a Nova Scotia-based show.
Speaker 3:We'll talk to Tim. He was on this show.
Speaker 2:We'll figure it out If Tim would take 10 minutes to sit down with.
Speaker 1:We'll talk to Tim. He was on this show. Figure it out, talk to him. Yeah, we'll figure it out. You know what, if Tim would take 10 minutes to sit down with us and have a conversation, I think his attitude on this whole thing would change. I think there's a lot.
Speaker 2:He's a brilliant guy. I don't doubt it would.
Speaker 3:I think there's a lot of lawyers and PR people giving. He seems like a pretty decent human being, I look.
Speaker 1:I mean, I would say at this point, people think I'm enemy number one at the premiere and the only reason I'm talking into the internet is because he won't sit down with me face to face. I think if he would sit down with me face to face he wouldn't find me so awful. So, um, well, I found you pretty, I found you pretty, pretty nice. So far I've enjoyed this conversation, all right. Well, there you can pledge.
Speaker 3:We'll vouch for you, all right, and we'll pledge Speaking about, I guess, onto political and policy and stuff. One question I want to ask you to get your kind of expertise on is how would you coach the general population to identify like dog whistle type policies?
Speaker 2:Dog whistle. Oh yeah, explain a dog whistle type policies.
Speaker 3:Dog whistle oh yeah, explain a dog whistle type policy there. Well, okay, so dog whistle is basically um, you know, dogs can only hear it versus you know people, right? Uh, so they use. When they use dog whistle, it's, it's mega is a dog whistle. People say make america great again, right. And they're like, and everyone's like yeah, let's make america great, and that sounds like a good idea, america should be great. But then you ask yourself, well, when was America great? Right, right. And you go like well, when there was slavery. Well, exactly.
Speaker 1:It's the thing it's like, so what was it? Was Like how far back are we going?
Speaker 3:How far back are we going? Like, when was America great? Some might argue it was, you know, between 2008 and 2016. Right, that might have been the time when it was great. I don't know, but you know, I feel. And I don't know if you agree, but I feel, even with all the turmoil, I still think we live in probably the best time that we've ever lived in terms of the ability for people to just be themselves and I don't know if you agree with that or not yeah, no, I mean, like I can't remember the name of the book, there's a guy oh sorry, I just hit the mic um, uh, he wrote about the fact that we have humans have a negativity bias and I've heard that before.
Speaker 1:We always think that we're living in the worst time but statistically we are living in those yeah we're. We're on the precipice, though, so, like the next generation, if we don't change some things, especially with global warming, and obesity and other things.
Speaker 1:They're not going to have as long a lifespan and right, dog whistle, okay, so good example. Um, look, I'm not. And for anyone who's a conservative out there, pierre Palliev. Whether or not I agree with him, I think one of the things that worries me is how much he is playing to a base of social conservatives. When he was asked about genders, he said well, there's only two that I know of.
Speaker 2:Right, male and female.
Speaker 1:Well, that was him playing to a base. That wasn't him. You know, endocrinologists, pediatricians, scientists around the world have all agreed that there's fluidity with gender, depending on and so that's one example. I mean, I think, other things. You know how we talk about who is a freedom fighter the Ukrainians and who is considered a terrorist.
Speaker 3:Palestinians?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, like I think you know um the ways in which we use words. I mean the way we I just mentioned about gabriel wortman. We call him a monster. You know, like these the words we choose to use, or can be red flags, I would say on the other side, when you say dog whistle, um there's some really dangerous things happening right now with italy and germany, um, with really far right movement I was really shocked to learn about italy recently about some of the like the really yeah, really shocked my wife and I were talking about.
Speaker 1:It's like very right, and also too, I can't you can't.
Speaker 3:Like they're getting rid of ivf. If you're, if you're a gay couple, like you can't adopt, like you can't even, you can't even do surrogacy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like they totally changing also and I think there's another misconception that happens is that often we think that men are responsible for these really far-right policies. The leader in Italy is a woman yeah. Some of the leaders. Like in France, the very, very far-right movement is led by a woman, so women are just as like complicit in these pushes. I mean white women in large voting blocks voted Trump in.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So it's not men. Men are not responsible for it. This is where, when we look at intersectional a lens of it, breaking people down by also where they live, by their income. Whatever you want to talk about, women can be just as complicit. White women can be extremely violent. Emmett till, if your listeners were to google, google emmett till. Emmett till was a 14 year old boy that a white woman claimed on her way home uh tried to assault her. He was hung um and lynched and it turned out to not be true and this was back in the early 1900s was that the one that d Chappelle talked about?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean like there's white women can be extraordinarily violent. It's part of the reason why there's a responsibility for those of us in that space to be able to talk to other white women. I mean it's so dog whistle, yeah. I mean there's a lot happening right now where people even like the whole trad wife trend.
Speaker 3:I was going to ask you the what Trad wives? I don't know what that is. Okay, so my wife and I had this long conversation about trad wife on a hike one day. Okay, trad wife is traditional wife.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's a movement that's happening right now.
Speaker 1:So I was going to ask you.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of young.
Speaker 3:Yeah, trad, wife, I they're wearing the long dresses, the conservative posts, I'll see trad wife Making bread. The crazy thing to me and this is what my wife and I talked about is they are so naive that they don't realize that there's nothing wrong if you want to be a traditional quote. Unquote wife.
Speaker 1:If it's by choice.
Speaker 3:By choice, and they don't seem to realize that all of the women that have come before them, that have fought for certain rights, have allowed them to be able to make that choice and they're now fighting against it and saying it's not that they want to be a trad wife, it's the fact that they're like shooting women down who don't want to be that yeah, I think it's this whole idea of like the other right, like it's, I think, right okay, that's good.
Speaker 2:So I'm just so confused by this I'll take my brain time process Sorry.
Speaker 1:Here's the one thing I'll always say. It's always about consent.
Speaker 3:Yeah right.
Speaker 1:Everything is about consent. Did you consent to this. Was this your choice? Great Happy for you. Let other people have the ability to have consent on what they do with their bodies, how they choose to live their lives, If it is not ultimately impacting you in any way shape or form.
Speaker 2:I thought that was always the goal right so we could get on to the next bigger, better thing. I thought we've got so stupefied in the last so many years about where we are at and I mean I feel like when history looks back on us, we are going to be like the anti-science age.
Speaker 3:This like the anti-science age and the anti-fact age and the like it feels like the middle ages are progressing age like what the hell? Well, I can, I can tell you like I have a three and a half year old and for as long as I'm amazed you're still awake.
Speaker 1:I I like like.
Speaker 3:Honestly, we have tried to hammer home consent for him in every aspect right. We kind of you know as letting him decide yeah well, we, you know, we try to let him decide certain things, but we also like coach him on it right and he and I like to. He loves to wrestle right like he and I, and I do wrestle and they throw him in bed and all of a sudden, we love it right and uh, we always do it before bed.
Speaker 3:And he'll ask and he'll be like can we, can we fight before we go to bed? And he's like, yeah, all right, let's go, but sometimes you know he'll you know, whatever he'll go, he may go with me, it's okay kind of thing. Sometimes he might attack my wife and whatever, and I'll sit him down. We sit him on the floor and I look at him. Bud, remember I said you can only fight somebody when both people agree to fight, right? It's like it's literally I telling them.
Speaker 1:It's WWF rules.
Speaker 2:It's like you're talking to me after I had too many drinks. It's that consent thing right. So it's like listen, it's.
Speaker 3:you know what Boxing happens, UFC happens. Both of those people agree to get into a ring and do it. If he goes and fights in high, if he goes in high school and he goes to fight, I'm going to say, buddy, do both of you guys go and decide to like square off. You walked off and you went and squared off. You know what, bud, you're probably not in trouble, but if you're bullying anybody, if you're hitting somebody and you're picking on somebody, not cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah Right, I don't know. It's interesting, I think you know, when people get a little bit of a taste of power, their connection Again it goes back to relationship. You forget what it's like to be the person who was not able to do something or not able to. You know, like I think we just I don't know what it is about humans we have this need to constantly overpower, dominate one another, whether mentally physically, dominate one another whether mentally physically.
Speaker 2:So let me ask you this though If you like, matt, you're raising your kid and stuff and giving them all the right tools, I think the probability of that probably would go down a hell of a lot, wouldn't it that they would be more, or is it instinctual? Can we even control this thirst or quench for power?
Speaker 2:I mean, I always say like I have to check myself, because it's almost like you almost always want to have an enemy in life as a man right, you know, like, you know what I mean, right, yeah, the change has been because there's nothing more unifying than a common which, which which has been great for us, right because and you know, but like, yeah, like how you really I said this earlier about inner peace Like you really have to say like let that shit go, right, you really have to find a way to stop looking for the next thing to be pissed off about.
Speaker 1:Right, you should. You should come over and talk to me. My husband would love you to coach me through like get off. Twitter Stop it. Who are you yelling at right?
Speaker 3:now, stop it. I am avoiding the comment section lately. Who are you yelling at right? Now, stop it. I am avoiding the comment section lately.
Speaker 2:I haven't it's so free and I mean I can't do it all the time. I would be such a liar if I said I did. I do it some of the time, but when I can do it, when I get into that zone, I'm just not going to fucking worry about it.
Speaker 1:Isn't it great.
Speaker 2:Man, you feel so great I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's better than happy, yeah, I mean, if I had well, okay, god, your poor listeners are probably like Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1:this is turning into some kind of I think capitalism is fundamentally some of the core crux of why this all exists. Right, like I'm a fundraiser I have spent my career working on. Okay, I have two sides of the coin. I have two sides of the coin. I have people who have so much wealth, so much power, so much privilege that I talk to you and I'm trying to convince them to just carve off a small amount of what they have to help those who have the least amount. Right, neither group are happy Because one has so much money and so much power they have no sense of. They have done everything they can to make more and more and more and more and more, because that's what society teaches them is going to make them happy and at the end of the life, they're miserable.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:We have people who have nothing they have whatever. Systemic issues have caused them to be born into a situation where they haven't been able to, and there's this giant chasm in the middle and I think people are constantly striving to get to that end where it's wealth, the privilege, whatever it doesn't make. I've never met a really extraordinarily wealthy person who's super happy Really Never. Most of them regret it. Most of them say that it was by luck. Most of them say that they spent more time with their business than their kids. They didn't spend enough time with their wives. They're on their third wife, fourth wife, X number of girlfriends or vice versa.
Speaker 1:You know, but they never. You know, it just doesn't. If it's like a hole that can't be filled and then, you also have people who literally cannot get one foot in front of the other yeah can't get ahead. So for those of us that are in the middle, it's like okay, well, where are we spending our time, our energy and our money so that that gap closes?
Speaker 1:And I think both of you are involved in some work with a really great organization as well, and I think people like us have to kind of pull these two ends closer together, because if we're not fundamentally shifting, we have too many people with too much and too many people with too little.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3:Like it's just, yeah, I've said we were talking about this. Like Elon Musk is worth $400 billion, he could give $399 billion away still be a billionaire still have more money than he'd ever know how to spend and he could probably solve world hunger and shelter for everyone in North America, and he'd still be a billionaire. He could literally set up 400 charities with a billion dollars and have those feed off interest that could fix everything.
Speaker 1:But they wouldn't let him in the room season now if he didn't have $400 billion.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Nobody would be listening to him.
Speaker 3:Right yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's the access. It buys him, right, mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't, I, I don't know if I, I guess what I would say is, like the most important thing we can all be doing is talking. Yeah, sitting down face to face, having in-person face-to-face, huge I agree with that.
Speaker 3:I kind of feel that's what won trump. Like his first term. I think he's gone off the rails in this second term I really feel like he's really really well, I mean like he's literally acting like Name. One example he's acting like a toddler, Like he really is acting like.
Speaker 1:Now having a toddler.
Speaker 3:He's acting like a toddler, like irrational, like emotional every day to day, all the like, throwing temper tantrums, you know all this stuff. And mix that with if first term. Although I still didn't like him, I understood why people were voting for him, because he was at least a little. He was more intelligent, he had more of those dog whistle not the blatant stuff, he had more of the dog whistle type of policies. And he went and he did something that Hillary didn't and that was visit that steel belt. He went in there and said I'm bringing your jobs back right, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. And people were. They were. It was like, okay. So yeah, he's probably a racist, misogynistic person, but I live in madison, minnesota, or madison, wisconsin, whatever, and I'm uh worried about the factory that just closed and I live in an all-white. I just want to put food on the table. I don't care if he hates Mexicans or devalues women.
Speaker 1:Like literally, that was the mentality, right, I know, yeah, that just breaks my heart, but, yes, I know, but people voted on the fact that I actually Immediate needs.
Speaker 2:Immediate needs. They put the blinders on right.
Speaker 3:This is something I realized just a few years ago, when I was talking to a friend who didn't feel like it was his responsibility to help others and I kind of realized like he was hurting so much, that like blind, why should I?
Speaker 3:and he's like listen, I need help, I can't help anyone else. And I realized that like the more we can lift people out of poverty, the more we can lift people up in general, like rising tides, float all boats, boats. Then we have more people to help other people. And I think that's the thing is when you say talking is we can almost help to understand other people and maybe win them over a little bit and help them see the other side and help them relate a little bit and, yeah, hopefully we can get them over to the point where they're in a good spot and then they can help the next person I think the pandemic did a lot of damage, sure did yeah, I think it really did.
Speaker 1:Mental health, yeah, isolated people yeah, oh, yeah, and I don't think people, I don't think society's fully recovered, I don't think society's fully grieved what happened? Um no, that's fair and I think that the more we can do this kind of stuff, the better. Most people I don't know if you've ever been had someone really upset and angry, like in customer service or something, and they're getting them.
Speaker 3:We work in insurance. Okay, people hate us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, but do you ever find you pull that person aside, sit them down in a room or actually call them back and you'll find that they come down and just as long as they're heard, I think hearing people can go a long way to changing the way people feel about each other. I think most people are angry because they haven't been hurt. It all comes back to the same thing, that's fair, yeah. You can't get over something you can't heal. You can't move on until you've had your ability.
Speaker 2:And then at. That point.
Speaker 1:If you still can't move on to your point, maybe you need to work on some inner stuff. But I think, most of the time, as long as we feel like you know, at least I've had my chance to say how I felt about this. Whether you change it is up to you. Yeah, so I don't know, If I had all the answers I'd be a millionaire or billionaire, Are?
Speaker 2:you writing a book, oh fuck, no, no, jeez, I mean, I think you could, they could uh get on that I had someone suggest I started podcast.
Speaker 1:I was like god, no, no well the sub stacks.
Speaker 3:Don't introduce you to ai. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you'd be surprised.
Speaker 2:I think you got a lot, a lot to share so now, okay, that was a really great time we're going to do 10 questions.
Speaker 1:Oh shit, Buckle up.
Speaker 3:This is way. Okay, linda, let's go.
Speaker 2:We've already went pretty hard in the paint today.
Speaker 3:This is pretty easy. So this is 10 questions with Linda, with Linda.
Speaker 1:I'm going to send this to my mother Now I'm definitely going to call her Linda.
Speaker 3:We've been doubling down on it it With Linda. I'm going to send this to my mother Now. I'm definitely going to call her.
Speaker 2:Linda, we've been doubling down on it.
Speaker 3:It's going to mess me up.
Speaker 2:Want to start with number one Sure did All right, okay. So question number one your least favorite movie or TV show of 2024. Least favorite, for whatever reason. Least favorite, what did you watch? Maybe you were looking forward to it and it sucked.
Speaker 1:Oh jesus, oh, I don't watch bad tv.
Speaker 3:No, I think that's the benefit of streaming is I don't have to that's, that's fair.
Speaker 2:Um god, I can't, I don't know, I really had to sit through for the with the kids bad show. No, I don't watch shows with them because they have bad taste in shows.
Speaker 1:So no, they watch mostly soccer all right, cool.
Speaker 2:okay, all right, no answer, sorry, no, that's all right Question number two.
Speaker 3:So if one of these creatures were banished from the earth tomorrow, cats or dogs, which one would you pick?
Speaker 1:Oh, cats, that was easy All day long.
Speaker 2:Really Okay and the cat was the distraction. Sorry to the cat.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I was just shocked, 100% you know what?
Speaker 3:I have a cat and he's an asshole. Yeah, you know what?
Speaker 1:working at the SPCA. That was quite a controversial statement, so I was prepared to defend myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah am I number three? You're number three. Okay, this is easy, or maybe not easy. It's controversial poutine or doner?
Speaker 1:oh, poutine, I can't eat doners not a doner person no, I just can't okay. No, I just can't Okay. Long story I can't eat onions or garlic, so my choices are limited. Okay, yeah poutine might be my only option.
Speaker 2:Oh right, Makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if anyone wants to kill me, just shove an onion into something. That's basically.
Speaker 3:I don't know, you're a vampire. Death by onion, exactly, yeah, or something like that. All right, question number four. So how many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Speaker 1:None, we would have figured out something else. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:The acceptable answer was that was not funny.
Speaker 1:I snuck that one in. You're not funny, that's so rude. All right.
Speaker 2:Okay, liz, this came off your LinkedIn. We are living in times of shock and awe. I must have read one of your other articles. That was about Donald Trump, because I wrote this the first time, I think the first time we were all going to do our thing. How do you think we can build a better vision for the future? Oh geez, that's a hard question. What was I drinking there, liz? I think she's already kind of answered it. You've kind of answered this one.
Speaker 1:I think with this episode this has kind of been the theme Community working together. Being in community with one another. Signing your petition. Signing our petition.
Speaker 2:Big first step.
Speaker 1:Yeah, give Tim a call.
Speaker 3:If anyone's got his phone number, just send him this podcast and tell them to listen. Yeah, I like that, all right. Question number six so another quote that we liked. What is power if we cannot use it for the collective liberation? It's a great quote. How would you suggest other women in power help others.
Speaker 1:I think the biggest thing I would say, you know, is what I talked about before, which is it's really easy, as a white woman, to say okay, you know, check these boxes off is like fulfilling the same uh trajectory that a lot of men have been stuck in, which is like this these are the definitions of power and success, but how are we really bringing everyone up with us together, right it? What does success mean if you're not sharing it with the people that you care about or the communities that you're in? And I think, if we don't have I would say this, if you don't have any friends that don't look like you and don't have the same background as you, you should probably be trying to make some different friends, because I think the experience I've had is that I don't understand what the world is really like unless I'm in relationship with people who have different experiences than I do.
Speaker 3:I'll tell you I know we touched a little bit like on like DEI, but I can tell you I'm when people talk about how like the DEI stuff and how they're, whether they're against it or whatever I can tell you as someone who I managed an agency, and reason to me why I see it as a huge advantage is that you can see from things from so many different perspectives, which actually is a benefit, not a like dumbing down of the whatever they want to call it.
Speaker 3:Right. Yeah, but I actually I saw it like I took an agency and in half the time that it was open, more than doubled the revenue that it was doing. And how I did that was I saw that people were consistently hiring a bunch of white people and I was like you know what I'm going to take ads out in languages, like only in those languages that people can read and speak that language that I'm hiring. So that's how I hired people who I wanted to hire and you could eventually, if you came into my office at its peak, could hear six different languages being spoken in my office and we grew it like really well Right.
Speaker 3:So, I see that as a huge strength.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, people love to be connected to the communities that are familiar to them. So if you're growing a diverse group of communities connected to your business, then you're just going to grow your business. I think one of the things that always shocks me is when people are like oh, you know, especially around this trad wife thing, and not want women to have I'm like 50 of the population. You want to cut that off?
Speaker 1:that's weird to me it's a really weird decision I mean, there's a reason why you're starting to see more and more stuff around menopause and midlife, like women are becoming a very prominent and powerful voting block and you're going to start seeing policies changing around that right. Um, yeah, and we have a lot of buying power too. But I think we also have to remember that, like, communities of color in particular, are so used to racism that they, when they find a space and place where someone's embracing the differences versus pushing them away, they will embrace your business. It's a very powerful tool for growing a business in the right way. So, anyways, sorry.
Speaker 3:I'll go Okay. Question number seven how about you?
Speaker 2:All right, so just name a spot in Nova Scotia that would equate to a perfect day, a place you'd love to go in Nova Scotia, salt.
Speaker 1:Marsh Trail Very nice. I bike there every weekend.
Speaker 3:Every weekend. Every weekend, well, except for the winters, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Cool. I mean I would if I could, but I'm not that brave All right.
Speaker 3:So question number eight is, from any time in your life childhood to present what was one of your favorite childhood albums and why oh my god, we had a michael jackson thriller tape oh nice and I have no idea how we ended up with it, but my brother and I used to listen to that all the time.
Speaker 1:But, that being said, best story of my childhood growing up was that my parents are immigrants from the uk and they did not know who billy idol was. Oh, my mom and my dad. My dad came home one day from work with two tickets, or four tickets, to go see billy idol was. Oh, my mom and my dad. My dad came home one day from work with two tickets, or four tickets, to go see billy idol and my mom thought he was a jazz singer and she's like, let's take it. She's like, let's take the kids. They packed a bis like a picnic basket and whatever. They took me.
Speaker 1:My brother was five and a half, I was like eight and a half and we went down to ontario place. It was packed with bik, like just clouds of pot smoke, but my parents were insistent that we were going to at least see like the first bit of the show and anyways, we watched Billy Idol at that age and, like to this day, it's still one of the funniest fucking stories ever my mom taking her two kids to Billy Idol dressed in her like whatever, like the guys in the biker gangs I swear it was all hell's angels were like, yeah, these kids are awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess that was one of the best stories of our family, for sure that's great, so that's a good story.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, number nine what were you?
Speaker 2:this is a spicy one, that Uh-oh.
Speaker 1:That's not that spicy. More light bulbs, not that spicy. No, no Okay.
Speaker 2:Which Canadian political party do you think aligns better for the liberation of women?
Speaker 1:Oh jeez, honestly no, I struggle with all three of them. What are you, are we talking about? Federal or provincial? Federal? It's hard.
Speaker 2:It's tough, yeah, yeah. And why is?
Speaker 1:that Because I think women have different ideas of what their liberation looks like.
Speaker 2:So I think people would naturally say that I should lean towards the NDP but I also think there's things the NDP have done that I don't find, and it also sucks to be pushed. Like you just said, there's a diverse group of thoughts.
Speaker 1:I think the best thing that you can do is offer women choice 100% like you just said there's a diverse.
Speaker 3:I think the best thing that you can do is offer women choice 100 love it. Great answer, that is a great answer, all right, so, uh, last question, it's one that we ask every single person who comes on our show. Uh, so what is one quote or piece of advice that you were given in your lifetime that you would like to share with us?
Speaker 1:oh shit, should have studied better for this. I've had so many great pieces of advice. The one that resonated the most with me was my friend Anika Allen. When I was going through a tough time she said the best thing you can do is make sure you have a rich inner life.
Speaker 2:Make sure you have a what in your life.
Speaker 1:Rich inner life.
Speaker 3:Rich inner life.
Speaker 1:Because then, no matter what people say about you, no matter how difficult, we just got the title of your book rich inner life. Inner life, but like having a really rich idea of who you are, what you believe in, your values, but also finding joy in your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you, like you said, people can say what they want to. And you know it's. Yeah, and, like you said, people can say what they want to. It's not like water off a duck's back, but I don't find myself as when I spend time in nature or I spend time doing art, I know that I can fall back on those things to bring me joy.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2:Out of the park. Great answers, that's great.
Speaker 3:And you know what I have to say as just a little bit of funny, because you're gonna ghost write her book now oh god, and it's gonna. It's gonna be rich in her life. The story of an intersectional feminist by by linda. By linda ghost, written by Michael Tobin.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I would just. I just think you had a lot to say. This was a very entertaining show, great chat.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, thank you and thank you for hanging in there.
Speaker 3:I know I had to reschedule a couple times. If you're still with us, we appreciate it. No, no, it was great, it was worth it. Cheers, thank you, that's it.
