Patrick Sullivan - A Chamber President's Reflection on Past Present and Future!

This week we had the pleasure of spending well over an hour with President and CEO of the Halifax Chamber of Commerce, Patrick Sullivan. He shares insights from his nine-year tenure leading 2,000 members, & representing over 90,000 employees across Nova Scotia as he prepares for retirement. 

We dive into Pat's unique career driven by a passion for marketing which led him to work to such places as Moosehead Breweries, Indigo Books, Workopolis, and Tourism Nova Scotia.

We also talk about his interview with former Prime Minister Trudeau, maintaining professional political neutrality, hot topics like interprovincial trade barriers, business recovery after covid, Artificial Intelligence and more.

Patrick's true passion for entrepreneurs and businesses big and small is what truly shone out in this episode, and he shares a few ideas in our 10 questions round that could help.

We thank Patrick for his time, and to the Halifax Chamber for having a supportive network of business owners that support you and want you to succeed. If you ever want to know if the chamber could help you, email us and well be sure to connect you to one of their ambassadors. We think Patrick will be missed upon his retirement and congratulate him on a career well explored (though we also think he's not done yet!) 

Kimia Nejat of Kimia Nejat Realty
 

Marc Zirka - Strategy Up 

Chapters

• 0:00 Meeting the Chamber President
• 6:56 Political Neutrality and Advocacy
• 18:49 Interprovincial Trade Barriers
• 32:21 Career Journey Through Marketing
• 45:31 Chamber Growth and COVID Response
• 1:01:36 Post-COVID Business Recovery
• 1:07:01 Retirement Plans and Chamber Impact
• 1:14:27 Ten Questions with Pat Sullivan

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:13

Cheers, cheers. Welcome to the Afternoon Point. I'm Mike Dobin, I am Matt Conrad, and who do we have with us today?

Speaker 2: 0:20

My name is Pat Sullivan and I'm the President and CEO of the Halifax Chamber of Commerce.

Speaker 1: 0:25

I've seen you around a few times, I believe.

Speaker 2: 0:26

I've been around.

Speaker 1: 0:27

So the last time Matt and I saw you, I think you were speaking to the Prime Minister, the former Prime Minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau. Not too long ago, that was in the fall.

Speaker 2: 0:34

Well, December 9th. It was quite interesting because he spoke here. He spoke with a good degree of enthusiasm.

Speaker 1: 0:42

Yes.

Speaker 2: 0:43

As if he was about to go on the campaign trail and then a week later things kind of unfolded in a different way than he expected, I guess.

Speaker 1: 0:54

That was very interesting. It was very interesting Mike and I were talking.

Speaker 3: 0:56

I went home that night after that, listening to that chat, and I said to my wife I said you know what? I think that was one of the best I've ever heard him speak. He sounded great.

Speaker 1: 1:05

He sounded great, you brought out the best interview of Justin Trudeau. Well, that's very kind, that's very kind.

Speaker 2: 1:11

He was on a roll. I will say that it was quite funny. Maybe I should tell the background story.

Speaker 1: 1:16

Yeah please.

Speaker 2: 1:17

So the background story it was kind of funny. We started out and there's lots of security with the prime minister, all that sort of thing, and it's very, you know, timed down to the minute. So it was supposed to be and I'm sort of going by memory now, but it was supposed to be about a seven-minute talk and then I was going to get to ask him questions and we had pages and pages of questions, uh, and he asked him like, four, so that I guess that's the story.

Speaker 2: 1:45

So you know, he was supposed to speak for seven, maybe 10 minutes.

Speaker 2: 1:50

Uh, at about 18 minutes I kind of looked over at his, uh, at the person who he was traveling with, and I kind of went you know, like time and he kind of went ooh, because they had a hard stop at 20 to the hour, I don't remember what it was, so 20 to 4, I think they had a hard stop. So at 25, after you know, I went up and stood beside the stage ready to go on At 3.30,. He was still talking, at 3.30, he was still talking. At 3.35, he was still talking and his campaign manager wrote back and said you know, I guess we'll leave at 3.45. Right, and I said okay, 3.45. And then I put so far dot dot, dot, because we're texting back and forth, because I'm standing beside the stage. Anyway, he, finally, he did stop talking at about 345. And once I got up there I just wasn't going to let him go, so I didn't really care about the time after that.

Speaker 1: 2:45

That's great. Well, matt and I went, because we thought we were going to meet him after that.

Speaker 3: 2:49

Oh, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2: 2:49

No, no, it wasn't your fault.

Speaker 1: 2:51

My gosh, but yeah, they went so long, I think all that kind of ended abruptly and then he was gone he got out of there fast he did.

Speaker 2: 2:57

We had to go to get him on the show. Yeah, I think they always do.

Speaker 1: 3:00

Maybe we still can get him on the show. It'd be kind of fun to get him on now.

Speaker 2: 3:03

I think Well, he's got more time.

Speaker 3: 3:04

More time. Yeah, I've heard a rumor that he might be making a stop in Halifax this summer. Oh, really Well, so I think it was some friends that have told me that they're going to try to see if we can get him on, so we'll see you seem like a very you know it's different.

Speaker 2: 3:24

You know I haven't met too many prime ministers, and we do. You know, sometimes we're accused of bias. We do invite all of the political leaders. So we have invited, you know, the leader of the opposition. Federally, We've invited the prime minister. In fact, I kind of hate to say it I mean I've been with the chamber nine years now, or almost nine years. We've invited him every year. This was the first time he came and then he resigned a week later.

Speaker 3: 3:47

It's your fault, maybe it was. Yeah, your questions were too hard. They might have been you know what, though? That's one thing I actually really always wondered about the Chamber of Commerce is how do you stay politically neutral when you represent a workforce that isn't neutral sometimes?

Speaker 2: 4:05

Well, we are neutral. I want to make that point absolutely clear, although, depending on which political party is in office, I mean it's kind of funny. You know, we have a conservative government in Nova Scotia. Now I have been told by conservatives in government that they think I'm a liberal. I thought that was hysterical. I then told one of the liberals who was in government prior to that and said isn't it funny? You know, the conservatives think I'm liberal. He said well, what's funny about that is when we were in government prior to that and said isn't it funny? You know the conservatives think I'm liberal. He said well, what's funny about that is when we were in government, we always thought you were a conservative. So you know exactly the opposite.

Speaker 1: 4:46

So Mike and I have that problem. We have the same problem with the show. Oh, really, by staying center Right Well, yeah, we're trying.

Speaker 2: 4:59

Well, and I mean, I kind of say it In our case you know, when you've got federal government ministers, they tend to come more often than you do. Leaders of the there's only one leader of the opposition, and then, of course, he has a shadow cabinet, but the shadow cabinet tends not to travel.

Speaker 2: 5:07

You know they're in Ottawa, but cabinet ministers will travel and the prime minister will travel. And you know this particular leader of the opposition has said in the past that he would prefer to meet people in smaller groups in smaller locations rather than doing larger groups in organized ways. So you know, that's what they choose to do, so we tend to have more people that are in government than people that are out of government Do you hear from like your membership at all in terms of saying like you're not putting enough pressure.

Speaker 3: 5:37

Hear from like your your membership at all in terms of saying like you're not putting enough pressure, like you know, because I mean you're, you're essentially kind of lobbying for the people, the business people of halifax. Do you get a lot of pressure where it's like I know you know, just as an example, just because he was the last prime minister, not picking on him or anything, but like some business people, some small business people, weren't happy with the way, with certain policies that justin trudeau had. Do you get pressure from people saying like you need to do this?

Speaker 3: 6:00

Oh all the time yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:02

Yeah, all the time. I mean we tend to think of it as advocating rather than lobbying, but you know we would advocate for our members. So we have 2,000 members that represent over 90,000 employees in the greater Halifax area and spread across Nova Scotia and some in other regions as well, and clearly when there are times that they want us to convey an opinion, we'll do that. I mean, we also come up with our own opinions, you know. So you know we've done position papers on the airport and how the airport is an economic driver and how we should invest, you know, as a province or federal government, in airports.

Speaker 2: 6:38

You know we've done other things as well, but no, I mean we're always talking to sort of political leaders, whether it's municipal, provincial or federal, and we're always advocating for our members. It's interesting, you know, sometimes I'm asked by political figures. They say, you know, have you checked with your members on this? The reality is, I'm talking to our members every single day.

Speaker 1: 7:02

I mean yesterday.

Speaker 2: 7:03

Yesterday we we hosted on the 14th. We hosted um the uh, the mayor of Halifax. We had 800 people in the room, Um, and as I'm walking through, people are saying make sure you ask this, make sure you ask that. I mean to be honest, we have the questions pretty much set up by that time. But they're saying you know, these are the concerns that I have, and when I'm out I'm just a regular guy. It's a tough gig, but I'm always you know sort of the chamber guy and people present their opinions.

Speaker 1: 7:33

Matt and I have been at many chamber events and you're always there from the after hour points to the to. We were at a chamber event actually at the other Garrison location. We're at Garrison on Oxford here today. You're talking to every single one of the chamber members. You're super engaged. I think that's a really cool thing about you as a leader and it's, I guess, sad to hear you're retiring this year.

Speaker 2: 7:53

Well, yes, I mean we're going to find somebody. You know, I've given lots of time to the board to find the right successor because we've built a pretty good thing. I've obviously been involved in the growth of the chamber in Halifax. I'd like to see it continue to grow and continue to evolve, and for our members to be able to continue to get their messages out to the folks.

Speaker 1: 8:14

They need to get the messages out to yeah, and it's grown in fun ways too. I mean, I noticed like there's been an arcade year at the Chamber Awards and there's been new themes and new kind of contrast added that were never there before.

Speaker 2: 8:27

It's more fun. Well, I will have to give great credit to the team at the Chamber. So, whether it's the event team, the marketing folks, I mean, they come up with these things every year and I got to admit I really don't know how they do it.

Speaker 1: 8:38

The circus year was crazy.

Speaker 2: 8:39

The circus year was unbelievable. I mean you know, we did an event where we talked about oceans and they had whales swimming along the side of the wall. You know, pints and Pointers is a great event which takes place at the other Garrison Brewery, taking place next week in fact. In fact, Not sure what day Might be Wednesday or Thursday.

Speaker 1: 8:58

We'll probably be there. Okay, that'll be good.

Speaker 2: 9:00

So that'll be great. Yeah, I mean, the arcade thing was amazing. You know, dressing up as Donkey Kong probably wasn't my finest hour but it was fun.

Speaker 2: 9:12

It was a lot of fun and we provide a lot of information. I mean, we've got you know. I'm actually pretty excited about our spring dinner, which is coming up on April 30th, and we're going to have seven courses of Nova Scotia food and blueberries, and fish, and lobster and you know, and apples and you know all kinds of things that are going to be amazing. That are going to be amazing and it's a time, you know, it's kind of a time to celebrate Nova Scotia food, the abundance of riches we have here in terms of food, drink, all those kinds of things. So it's, you know it's going to be a great event, are you?

Speaker 1: 9:46

getting a front row seat right now to this interprovincial trade talk, Because it seems to be all the rage and I mean you would be one probably hearing that buzzword or thing quite a bit.

Speaker 2: 9:56

Yeah, absolutely. We had a meeting with the premier probably a couple of months ago now. It was actually prior, I think, to the first Trump announcement on tariffs. So yeah, we had a meeting with the premier and it was chambers from across the province, to be fair, not just us and he kind of unveiled that they were very interested in moving forward on reducing barriers to interprovincial trade and I mean, we've been advocating for that for a long time. So, both as the Halifax Chamber and then as a group of chambers across the country, we're in a group called the Canadian Global Cities Council, which are the eight largest chambers across the country. So Montreal, Ottawa, toronto, winnipeg, calgary, edmonton, vancouver and we've been pushing hard to get people to kind of look at interprovincial trade. I could talk about interprovincial trade for the next two hours, but because a lot of people don't understand exactly what it is and what the barriers are, suffice it to say we need to improve the ease of sale On a high level.

Speaker 1: 11:03

Yeah sure, let's just say what are the barriers. So I'll give you a.

Speaker 2: 11:06

Even before we jump into that, because I do want to know that.

Speaker 3: 11:10

With the interprovincial. Are there any businesses here, Nova Scotia businesses, that are worried about it, in the sense that they are worried that they have to try to compete with larger local businesses in Quebec, Ontario, Alberta, anything like that? Is there any worry at all about that?

Speaker 2: 11:27

Well, there is. I mean, why don't I give the example first? Then I'll tell you why people would be worried and what categories they might be a little more worried. What categories they might be a little more worried. So you know an example. You know there's a medical device company in the area. It's easier for them to go to the FDA in the United States and get approval and boom, they can sell in all 50 states In Canada, because health is a provincial responsibility. You have to go to 10 provinces and three territories, so 13 different areas. You have to go to get approval to 3 territories so 13 different areas. You have to go to get approval to sell your product. I mean, it's ridiculous. So what that means is that company won't sell in Canada. It's just not worth their time and effort to sell to 13 different locations. They can go to the EU and they can do. I don't know who you go to in the EU, but they have common guidelines, common packaging, common everything. You can sell in the EU to 400 million people. You can go to the US and sell to 350 million people. Our peasly little you know, 41 million people is really not worth the effort when you've got to go through 13 different bureaucracies. So you know there's an example Liquor.

Speaker 2: 12:33

You know we're sitting in a pub and you know having a beer. There used to be a time when, in order to sell beer in a particular province, you needed to have a brewery in that province. That went away in Maritime Canada. That went away in Maritime Canada, you know, a number of years ago, when the Maritimes said, ok, you can actually put together. You know, if you, if you're Labatt in Halifax, you can sell to the Maritimes without the surcharge, the $2.40 surcharge that an Ontario brewery or a Quebec brewery may face just to sell in Nova Scotia.

Speaker 2: 13:15

So liquor is the big thing, you know. It's the easy thing to understand. You know I can't take liquor across provincial barriers. You know there was a fellow that did it from, you know, from Quebec to New Brunswick. He got charged. I actually don't know the outcome, but you know that was a real problem. So liquor is a big thing.

Speaker 2: 13:32

So now I'm going to get back to your question, which is who's concerned? Breweries. So the folks in Newfoundland, the brewery in Newfoundland, and again, I'm not sure what it is, but have already said hey, we're concerned because it's frankly cheaper for a brewery to produce beer on a bottling line at 1,600 bottles a minute. Is that the right number? Some crazy number 1600 bottles a minute versus 300 bottles a minute. Or a craft brewer who's producing them at 15 bottles a minute. Right, so much less expensive. So they can make it more cheaply and they could ship it across the country for less money than somebody could make it in Newfoundland for example, even amongst craft brewers, though, you've got a nine locks and you've got a guy down the street who's just starting out.

Speaker 1: 14:22

Absolutely, it's like a party time brewing, right. Absolutely, you know he's not making it that capacity. Yeah, how can he compete, right? No, you're right.

Speaker 2: 14:38

And there are different rules. Because you produce a certain amount, you're taxed at a different level, so your taxes are lower when you're a small producer. As you get bigger, your excise taxes become bigger and bigger and bigger.

Speaker 1: 14:45

Yeah, so I think you answered my question there before Matt interrupted, like the. Basically, you know, the trade barriers are that every province is different, has almost a different set of rules to play, which makes it so hard to just do business in Canada.

Speaker 2: 14:59

It's about creating employment or maintaining employment in that particular province, right? So you know, in Quebec they're concerned about dairy, they're concerned about farming. You know, in the Maritimes we used to be a lot more concerned about liquor because we're a small province. Again, somebody could just spin an extra shift in Ontario and they could ship all the beer that we need down here. So you know there are people get concerned about these things.

Speaker 2: 15:24

There was a free trade agreement done nationally, so the provinces and the federal government all signed off. When you look at the agreement, it was in the sort of 2017, 2018 kind of period. When you look at the agreement, there are more pages of exclusions than there are inclusions. So the IMF, the International Monetary Fund, has done a study and they would say that if Canada was to get rid of some of these interprovincial trade barriers, it would be as if we were relieving a 21% tariff. So when you think about that, that's more money for a business, less regulation, all those kinds of things.

Speaker 2: 16:04

Now, the downside and there is a downside is that people's jobs will likely be impacted, right, If that happens, because you will get more efficient producers who are going to probably sell their product kind of more cost-effectively and may not need as many people. I mean, if I don't have to do payroll for four or five different provinces, then I may not need a payroll clerk to do my payroll for those four or five different provinces if I only needed to do it for one province. So there will be people that will be impacted, hopefully. However, you know people will sell more stuff and they'll need more people to actually sell more stuff across Canada or, you know, wherever it happens to be Well.

Speaker 1: 16:48

I mean, there's a buying Canadian trend right now, and sometimes that's not viable. Like. Sometimes it's either you can't get the product or it's more expensive than the American product or whatever product sitting right next to it, even with tariffs.

Speaker 2: 16:59

Well, I mean that's true, this bi-Canadian phenomenon, you know. I mean I've switched now from Jif peanut butter to back to Kraft.

Speaker 1: 17:07

You know which I had 25 years ago.

Speaker 2: 17:09

Because Kraft is made in Montreal you know, and it's fine. It's great peanut butter. You know I'm happy to have it. I think this is going to stay for a while.

Speaker 3: 17:18

I think so too, At least four years.

Speaker 2: 17:20

Right, at least four years You've got to look at it that way, but I think it's actually going to stay for quite a while.

Speaker 3: 17:29

Do you think we can actually replicate though? Because I mean, obviously the United States is a very big customer. I mean, so a lot of people are looking at things and saying, oh yeah, well, we can be our own customer, but I mean we can't really, because I mean we're such we're 10% of what they are.

Speaker 2: 17:48

Right, we are, we are, but I mean Europe is 400 million people. No, they're more. Yes, and Canada now has a free trade agreement with Europe. It's not yet been ratified by all countries but it's in force, so you know you can sell your goods virtually tariff or import duty free to Europe. Now, it's work and effort and you know it is a bunch of countries and a bunch of different languages and all of those kinds of things.

Speaker 2: 18:10

But I do think, whether it's the feds or whether it's the province, do need to provide some support for businesses to explore some of those new markets, and they may have always for Europe, but it's always been easier just to go to the US. You know I can take a flight to Boston and I'm in there, you know, whatever it is an hour and a half, an hour and 20 minutes. So you know it's easier to do that than it is to go to some of those other markets. But you know, at one point in my career I was selling products in Europe or other markets because people wanted a unique different product Was that when you were selling beer, I was selling beer Not only drinking beer, but selling beer.

Speaker 1: 18:44

We both did yeah, yeah, so you had a time with Moosehead doing that.

Speaker 2: 18:49

I did, yeah, really cool. Yeah, no, it was really good. I mean, we launched beer and you were their international director for marketing, weren't you?

Speaker 1: 18:55

I was yeah, yeah, yeah. So we launched beer.

Speaker 3: 18:57

Sounds like a pretty good gig, it was a pretty good gig.

Speaker 2: 18:59

yeah, yeah. Launched beer in Sweden, finland, Norway, launched it in the UK three times, which is actually not a good thing launching a product three times. Yeah, okay, Not taken, not taken Well it kind of means you failed the first two.

Speaker 1: 19:13

But anyway, did you get any first-hand impressions of beer, a Canadian beer, from Finland or from any of these other countries where people gave you their first impressions of a Canadian beer?

Speaker 2: 19:24

Well, I mean they liked the beer. I mean by the time I left, we were the seventh best-selling imported beer in the country of Sweden. Cool.

Speaker 3: 19:33

Moosehead is pretty well respected. I mean, they're if they, if they aren't if they aren't the largest, they're one of the largest independent breweries in this country.

Speaker 1: 19:41

They are the largest private brewery.

Speaker 3: 19:42

They are the largest, for sure I remember I went, uh, when I was in Germany and I was in Cologne, germany, which, uh, they have, they have a little bit of with Kolsch beer. It only can be made within the walls of Cologne. And so I was sitting in this beer garden and the guy who was there asked me who was serving beer, asked me where are you guys from? It's like, oh well, from Nova Scotia, Canada, and he's like Canada. He's like I love Canada. He goes.

Speaker 1: 20:10

Moosehead beer and he put the big antlers up on there and he's like.

Speaker 2: 20:14

I love Moosehead beer. That's great. Yeah, that's great, and so is.

Speaker 3: 20:16

Germany, which is like you know, they have laws like truly laws on beer.

Speaker 2: 20:20

So they love their beer? Yeah, they do.

Speaker 3: 20:21

And they really liked it. So it's kind of cool yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:24

No, it's good beer. There's a lot of good beers, of course.

Speaker 1: 20:32

You did a lot of my favorite things, so you sold you were with Zipatico.

Speaker 2: 20:35

Yes, that's true.

Speaker 1: 20:36

I mean the boomer generation will know Zipatico as the Internet email address that they'll never get rid of.

Speaker 2: 20:41

No matter what, they'll carry it with them.

Speaker 1: 20:44

So, geez, so you were doing something mobile on the Zipatico side. What was that?

Speaker 2: 20:49

I was so yeah, so that was just when. Well, we all had BlackBerrys back then.

Speaker 2: 20:55

There were no iPhones. Well, we all had Blackberries back then. There were no iPhones. Iphones were just starting and we were trying to sell advertising. So Simpatico was an advertising vehicle. It was a way for people to post an ad and they got paid for the ads, transitioning sort of traditional media to digital media, and I was tasked with figuring out how to get ads on mobile devices. Now the reality was it was an interesting time and I still remember I should have bought Apple stock then, had I realized. But I remember we got a report back and you could access the Internet on your BlackBerry. You could access the Internet on your Apple phone or your iPhone at the time, and I don't remember the numbers, but it was something like people were 1,000 times more likely to spend time on the Internet, on the iPhone, than they were on the BlackBerry, and I should have thought then, you know they got something going on, you know, and BlackBerry simply doesn't.

Speaker 1: 22:03

Just because it was too hard. That was the BlackBerry. I mean, I remember having a BlackBerry and you could not really use the internet very well. No, no, no, it was an amazing mail device.

Speaker 2: 22:10

But that was pretty much it. Yeah, 100% yeah.

Speaker 3: 22:14

I make the joke all the time. When people say like, oh, I finally got an iPhone, I say welcome to being an adult.

Speaker 2: 22:19

Right, yes, yes. Well, I don't know if you say that my 11-year-old granddaughter just got an iPhone, so I don't know, Is that too frightening?

Speaker 1: 22:26

Jane's changed a day Gracie's 13, and she's two years into her iPhone.

Speaker 3: 22:34

Right, yes, exactly, yeah, I just the Blackberry I don't know.

Speaker 1: 22:37

Did you ever see that Blackberry movie? That they did. Yes, it was a great movie Pretty fun it was done by CBC. It was Jeepers it had.

Speaker 3: 22:45

Like a documentary.

Speaker 1: 22:46

you mean it had that, jay Burchell, I'm going to say his name incorrectly Jay Burchell.

Speaker 3: 22:53

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:54

It's a fantastic show.

Speaker 3: 22:55

I don't know if I've seen it.

Speaker 2: 22:56

Yeah, it was the story.

Speaker 1: 22:56

The TV took it and they broke it down into a documentary in three or four parts, but it was a movie first. It was a real fun watch and it's just about the guys. It's kind of goofy but it's a lot of fun.

Speaker 3: 23:05

The Jim Balsillie? Yes, exactly, exactly. It was interesting guy because he was going up against the Jogging. I'm a Leafs fan and he was going up against the Maple Leafs because he wanted to bring a market. He wanted to bring a market into their market and he was really trying to get that team in. Hamilton and Maple Leafs entertainment was not letting that happen.

Speaker 2: 23:28

Yeah, you're absolutely right, it was yeah, but he managed to. You know he did okay, let's put it that way, he did fine.

Speaker 1: 23:36

You've got to do a few fun things, because then I looked further into your LinkedIn and then I was like I was surprised because I actually never looked at your resume on LinkedIn before until today.

Speaker 3: 23:44

So I mean I was still like wow.

Speaker 1: 23:46

And then the president of Workopolis, Workopolis.

Speaker 3: 23:54

Workopolis yes, you were not a user. No, okay. No, he just says names wrong, oh, okay.

Speaker 2: 24:00

Yes, Workopolis, it was kind of interesting. I was in beer for quite a while, ended up in Ontario with Moosehead Breweries running the national operation, the sale of Moosehead across the country. We were only launching across the country at that point. Again back to your interprovincial trade barriers and, left there, joined a small craft brewer called the Upper Canada Brewing Company, which was ultimately acquired by Sleeman.

Speaker 1: 24:30

Okay.

Speaker 2: 24:31

So kind of determined at that point that my life in beer was coming to an end and ended up working for Indigo Books. So a bookstore I saw that yeah, we saw that and was the first general manager of Indigoca. So was the general manager the fellow that launched Indigoca. Obviously, there were folks that had the idea. I just executed but sort of made it happen and that was pretty amazing and then ultimately got into left there and went to a small business which was an online city guide.

Speaker 2: 25:02

So again, back in those days, you know, there wasn't as much sort of hotel, you know information. So we were building websites for people with hotels. Sorry, just turning off this phone thing here, Maybe I can't, oh well, Anyway, you know we were building websites for people who had hotels and restaurants and all that sort of thing and then we would put them on our site. So that was all fun, Did that for a while. That was owned by Simpatico and the Toronto Star, which was, you know, at that point, the largest newspaper in Canada. So I was with them for a couple of years. Then they asked me to move over to Workopolis.

Speaker 2: 25:46

So in 2003, I went to as president of Workopolis. So what Workopolis was, was basically a job site. So we had hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of jobs on the website and people would post their resumes. We had three to four million visitors a month who came and looked for jobs and sent their resumes to the employers that were on the site. So it was a pretty amazing thing and I was there from 2003 to 2009. And that was owned by the Toronto Star, the Globe and Mail and La Presse, so three newspaper companies. It was an amazing time. Now again, this is history, I suppose. But you know, every month I would meet with the publisher of the Globe and Mail and we would discuss the business and he would tell me a little bit about what was going on in the newspaper business. It was a fascinating time as newspapers and we would discuss the business and he would tell me a little bit about what was going on in the newspaper business.

Speaker 1: 27:24

It was a fascinating time as newspapers were evolving and trying to kind of move from print to digital. So anyway, it was a really interesting time. That was amazing, yeah. And then, yeah, you certainly built up your resume to get to the Chamber. Well, I guess so. Yeah, that's a part of the experience, I guess. So, I guess so.

Speaker 2: 27:35

Yeah, that's a part of the experience, I guess. So, I guess. So, yeah, well, you know, I mean maybe I would say that the best part of my background is, you know, for most of my career I've kind of been a marketing guy. So you know, with a marketing view, you need to kind of listen to the customer. You need to listen to what the customer is saying. You need to understand what the customer is saying. You need to give them what they want, and I think that kind of helps me to understand what I need to do every day. You know we need to support our members.

Speaker 2: 28:00

We need to engage our members, we need to prove value to our members. Those are all the things that you know we as a chamber, you know need to do. But I've had a lot of jobs.

Speaker 1: 28:10

You know? I mean you know, maybe it would have been better to have one job for 35 years, but you know, I've had many, many, many jobs. It probably is yeah, and you did tourism. Was it tourism PEL or tourism Tourism Nova Scotia?

Speaker 2: 28:24

So I was living in Ontario and then came back here in 2012 as the CEO of what was then, well, what ultimately became the Nova Scotia Tourism Agency, and then kind of did my time, if you will, in government for about three years and then got back to the private sector Wicked.

Speaker 3: 28:41

Are you originally from here? Originally from here? Yeah, fairview, fairview. Okay, there you go.

Speaker 1: 28:46

Not too far away from Fairview right now. No, that's probably true.

Speaker 2: 28:49

No, my father was in the army, so we traveled around a bit, but I ended up back here and grade eight, I think.

Speaker 3: 28:56

Okay, so consider certainly, halifax is my, is my home yeah and say, I mean, with all this collective experience, I mean coming back here, how and how do you end up being on the, the Chamber of Commerce of Halifax? Because I mean obviously get lots, lots of experience. It was easy to sell yourself in terms of like, hey, I know how to do this kind of thing, like because I know a lot about different you, different avenues of business. But do you get tapped on the shoulder? Do you apply for that? Do they put a listing up on Workopolis?

Speaker 2: 29:24

Yeah, no, I don't think they did, but it was available, so the job was available. The previous CEO, valerie Payne, had announced she was leaving. She had been there 28 years.

Speaker 3: 29:36

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: 29:37

So a really long time. And they you know they posted the job and there were many, many good applicants and I was lucky enough to get the job. That's awesome.

Speaker 3: 29:47

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:47

And we'll be doing that again soon.

Speaker 3: 29:49

Yeah, yeah, all right.

Speaker 1: 29:50

I'm getting my resume ready. Okay, so the chamber now. So it was nine years. It'll be nine years in June It'll be nine years.

Speaker 2: 29:57

So we're coming up and then by the time I finally go it'll be nine and a half or so, so I mean getting you guys through a pandemic.

Speaker 1: 30:04

Yeah, what was that like? I mean, it's been a game changer.

Speaker 3: 30:07

You've seen a lot.

Speaker 1: 30:08

You've seen the internet go from dial-up to what it is now You've seen Workopolis, which was a little bit of a tough site to navigate at one point, turned into a great site and so yeah, what? Do you think now?

Speaker 2: 30:22

Well, I mean, look COVID, Go back to COVID. I mean, COVID was tough for everybody.

Speaker 1: 30:27

You know.

Speaker 2: 30:27

None of us knew what it was at the beginning.

Speaker 1: 30:35

I mean we can kind of look back now and say, well, there's. You know, there were still 32 cases of COVID last week in Nova Scotia. Not that I'm trying to panic anybody, yeah, um, but I mean, nobody reports it anymore.

Speaker 2: 30:40

So so, goodness knows if there were, if there were more, but um, and I don't think that you know, the version of COVID that we have is is too bad right now and they know how to treat it and all those kinds of things, but but clearly then no one knew what it was.

Speaker 2: 30:52

Uh, so, yeah, I mean we, you know, I, I guess you know I'm going to go back a step, which is I was in Toronto and I was running this website called Torontocom, which was this online city guide for hotels and restaurants when SARS was there.

Speaker 1: 31:05

I don't know. Oh yeah, the SARS outbreak, yeah. So Rolling Stones at the concert. Exactly, I was there, I was there.

Speaker 2: 31:11

That was a great one it was a great event, but you know SARS was happening and you know we had a business that was selling people websites for hotels and restaurants. Not a great business to be in when. Sars was happening. I've got to be honest, but the one thing I learned was you need information right when you're a business owner when we were building websites.

Speaker 2: 31:38

You need to know what SARS is, you need to know when it's going to be over, you need to know what you can do, you need to kind of get messaging out to people, all of those kinds of things. So I remembered that and COVID hit and sitting on my couch on a Sunday night I think it was probably the 15th of March on Sunday night and I thought you know what I remember SARS. I remember we need information, we need to gather a group of people together. So I wrote to um you know the deputy minister for the department of business and the deputy minister of that, the deputy minister of this um and said you should join me on a call um tomorrow or Tuesday I think it was Tuesday and we should talk about what's going on. Also invited the Construction Association you know the Tourism Industry Association of Nova Scotia, our tie-ins, so sort of four or five or going on. So we would sometimes get a little bit of advanced information. You know it was a time when businesses were looking for support.

Speaker 2: 32:52

You know, I remember being on a call. By that time it had morphed into rather than just six people, we were 10, 12, 15, 25, 30. I mean, in the end we had almost 300 people that were joining this call. Originally it was twice, three times, four times a week, then it was twice a week and we kind of maintained twice a week for almost the entire COVID pandemic. And I remember a time we had a deputy minister on and he's saying OK, here's what the program is going to be for local businesses. We're going to do this to help you support your mortgage or whatever it is. And he said it'll be for businesses that are five employees or more. And we said whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know it can't be for five employees or more because there are businesses that have three employees or businesses that have two employees, you can't do that, anyway.

Speaker 2: 33:37

Employees or businesses that have two employees, you can't do that anyway. Okay, well, we'll take that away. The call started at 12 o'clock. By 12 40 they were back and they said okay, you're right, we're going to make it two employees or more, you know. So, thankfully, you know, businesses were able to be supported. We were giving immediate, almost real-time feedback to government officials, and that included, you know, we're kind of back to the, the senior political people, I suppose, or the, the federal folks.

Speaker 2: 34:01

I mean, we had melanie jolie on there we had, uh, you know, we had all sorts of folks. Uh, we had christopher freeland, we had all sorts of people on that call to kind of update us, and then we would take that information and we would distribute that information to our members or to anybody else. So we'd send that out to the 300 people that were on the call and many of those people just cut and paste and just sent that on to their members. So we were covering almost 280,000 people who worked in the province of.

Speaker 2: 34:29

Nova Scotia with these calls and with this information, and we were frankly trying to get the information out faster than anybody else could.

Speaker 1: 34:37

That was kind of our goal, yeah, of course.

Speaker 2: 34:39

So you know, dr Strang and Premier McNeil would have a call at 2 o'clock, by 2.30, they'd end the call and by quarter to 3, we'd be sending out an email with here's the update and here's what you can do and here's what you can't do. And people loved it because it was easy to understand. It was helpful. They were able to pass it on to their employees. It was, it was.

Speaker 2: 35:00

It was a very difficult time, obviously but, it was a but it was an important time for people to kind of learn the value of the chamber.

Speaker 3: 35:07

But you know, and I honestly like so, yeah, you were a very you guys were a very important part of really what Nova Scotia, like Nova Scotia showed up.

Speaker 2: 35:17

Yeah, absolutely Right yeah.

Speaker 3: 35:18

Like they, we outperformed most of North America. We did, and you know, I think people you know was everything perfect? No, but you know, no one's really lived through this type of thing. You know, this type of we've had pandemics before, but they were before planes and boats were so accessible that everyone was taking them Right. Planes and boats were so accessible that everyone was taking them right. You had to be all like uber rich, right? Yeah, so this was a new thing really in our history yeah uh.

Speaker 3: 36:48

So I think, um, the fact that you know you could kind of you kind of took the reins is, yeah, pretty important, right, and sars was not in really that much different. It just it was, it was shorter. Well, I mean I mean the actual like uh virus virus was not any different.

Speaker 2: 37:03

No, it wasn't really. It was a similar virus and it was again something that people didn't know about. I mean, toronto was shunned by a lot of folks at that point because no one wanted to go to Toronto where SARS was happening at the time. In the end it wasn't as big a deal, but it was still a very, very difficult time for businesses in Toronto.

Speaker 3: 37:24

Yeah, no, but you might as well have had leprosy.

Speaker 2: 37:26

Right, right, I remember it very well. Yeah so, yeah, yeah, it was difficult, yeah, yeah, so good experience taking that to Halifax, yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:35

Yeah, Moving forward. How do you think businesses are doing now? How have they bounced back in Halifax?

Speaker 2: 37:40

Yeah, I'd say a lot of businesses have bounced back pretty well. I mean, you know, the federal government did provide great support for businesses at the time. I mean one might argue now, was it a little over, you know, was it a little too much?

Speaker 2: 37:57

I don't think it could have been too much, because I think a lot of businesses were able to come out very well at the end of COVID with, you know, the information, the support that they needed and were able to keep selling and keep delivering their products. So you know, in the end I think it was really good.

Speaker 2: 38:13

Hospitality and tourism not quite as good right Although people have come back and people did start to come back in a big way to Nova Scotia. Not quite as much right now. You know slightly down, I mean very tiny numbers, small percentages, but you know they're going to other places, they're looking at other things and tourism and hospitality is still having a bit of a hard time.

Speaker 3: 38:38

That's a constant fight, though it is a constant fight.

Speaker 2: 38:40

It's a tough business.

Speaker 3: 38:41

It really is bit of a hard time. That's a constant fight, though it is a constant fight. It's a tough business. You have to basically be constantly, yeah, tugging on people's emotions and showing them wow, I want to be there. Yeah, like all the time.

Speaker 2: 38:50

Yeah you do, you do and you know, and costs continue to go up. I mean, costs have really gone up. You know, for food and for. You know, maybe not so much for alcohol, but certainly for food, um, you know for consumables, all of those kinds of things you know, maybe not so much for alcohol, but certainly for food, you know for consumables, all of those kinds of things. You know that a restaurant or a hotel depends on. Labor costs have gone up significantly as well. So you know it's been a tough, tough time for many of those businesses and they're still coming out of it. You know here we are, you know in where are we in the middle of April?

Speaker 2: 39:19

you know, and I can tell you that folks that are in the tourism and hospitality business are anxiously looking for the sun. And that slightly warmer weather so that people can get out. Having said that, you've got a pretty busy place here today.

Speaker 1: 39:33

It's a Tuesday. We were shocked. It's a great spot. Yeah, yeah, this is an awesome spot for sure. And today was a little more packed than we were used to, because we were used to finding a table.

Speaker 3: 39:44

And I was like, oh no, where are we going to interview Speaking of the cost and stuff like that? How much are you guys, as the chamber, included into the chats about increase of minimum wage?

Speaker 2: 39:55

Because that's obviously a big thing it's going up twice this year right, it is going up twice this year.

Speaker 3: 39:59

Your members probably feel a certain way about it, yeah.

Speaker 2: 40:01

I mean there is a group that provides advice on minimum wage and it does have business people, it has labor folks from the labor federations. On that group as well I will say we probably you know, of our 2,000 members I wouldn't say the largest proportion pay minimum wage.

Speaker 1: 40:24

Right.

Speaker 2: 40:28

You know most folks are paying a little bit more than that. So, but I mean we still provide feedback, we still get asked an opinion and we still convey information. So we're sometimes asked for surveys and that sort of thing by government and we'll provide our surveys and our feedback. You know the two increases this year. You know, what I think people care about most is money in their pocket. Yes, so minimum wage is important, but Nova Scotia, up until very recently, has been the highest tax province in Canada, and that means at every level.

Speaker 1: 41:05

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 41:05

So for folks who are making you know sort of minimum wage, right up to folks who are making an awful lot more money, Right. So you know if Nova Scotia also had the lowest basic personal exemption. So the basic personal exemption for Nova Scotians was around $8,500. And the basic personal exemption for folks federally was $15,000. So Nova Scotians were paying a lot more tax, even at the lowest level, that's changed recently.

Speaker 1: 41:38

It has changed recently. It is up to $11,500. So it's up to $11,500.

Speaker 2: 41:41

So that's changed recently. It has changed recently. It is up to $11,500. So it's up to $11,500. So that's a positive. But again, you know, businesses are providing more money for employees. Maybe it's time the government stepped up to the plate, and they have stepped up a little bit by moving to $11,500. But again, many other provinces in Canada are close to that $15,000 level and that would put more money in people's pockets, which is what the most important thing is.

Speaker 3: 42:10

I think that's really important is that? Because what happens when you have these political things where you say, like I'm going to move up middle, you know, I'm going to move up minimum wage. I'm not advocating against it or anything, I'm just saying that when to move up minimum wage, I'm not advocating against it or anything, I'm just saying that when you move up minimum wage, uh, the person who's making minimum wage is happy because they get more money. But the person who's paying that minimum wage now knows, okay, well, my cost just got higher and therefore I'm not gonna like, I'm not, I, I need to raise my prices to keep up with that and all that stuff. So, in order to make everybody happy, the only way to do it is to keep up with that and all that stuff. So, in order to make everybody happy, the only way to do it is to lower taxes.

Speaker 3: 42:45

I think it's that all, like the rising tides, float all boats. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:50

Again, you know there's a lot of things you could do. I mean, taxes is one of them, and whether that's federally or provincially because there seems to be a lot of parties that are talking right now about lower taxes yes, in, you know, in the federal election, which seems like a pretty good idea as well, it does mean that there'll be less spending, but you know that's something that we probably need to think about. Yeah, so you know that's one way to do it. You know HST. You know that has just been lowered as well from 15% to 14%.

Speaker 2: 43:19

That's a good thing. So there's a few things we could do to help folks, because part of the problem. Sorry, just to finish but part of the problem is it's not only when you raise somebody. If you're moving somebody's minimum wage up 50 cents, often the guy who's making $1.50 more has to also move up 50 cents.

Speaker 2: 43:41

So it's not only the folk at the minimum wage level, it's the person who's making $1.50 more has to also move up 50 cents. So it's not only the folk at the minimum wage level, it's the person who's kind of that next tier as well is going to see his salary go up or at least ask for that raise.

Speaker 3: 43:49

Yeah, that's what I was going to say too, yeah.

Speaker 1: 43:52

So I think there's also a good time now to push for small business, and the reason I think that is just you know we have, with the technology they're developing right now, jobs are going to go away Right.

Speaker 2: 44:04

I mean, and change, they're going to change, they're going to change and some will go away inevitably too Right.

Speaker 1: 44:11

I think small business will help kind of foster more creativity, more office for people in the world. Like, how do you see that? Or do you see, how are we getting behind small businesses now with the chamber to really help them survive? Yeah, because they're having a hard time.

Speaker 2: 44:26

Yeah, I mean they're having a hard time, but you know it kind of again, I would sort of categorize people in certain areas. Sure yeah, so I mean, you know, I would sort of think of it industry by industry you, some industries, are having a harder time than others. I mean, if you're in the AI space or if you're in the technology space, you're not having too bad a time.

Speaker 1: 44:43

You're having a good time, I mean that's not too bad.

Speaker 2: 44:50

So you know, people do need to think about ways to do things differently, and you know. I probably wouldn't argue that jobs are going to go away. Clearly there are some jobs that are going to get better, but I mean we have the lowest productivity in Nova Scotia of any of the provinces or states in North America, so we're at the bottom of the pile. Our productivity is lower than Missouri or Alabama.

Speaker 1: 45:13

How's productivity measured?

Speaker 2: 45:15

Gross domestic product per capita. So when you think of it that way. So I mean, what's AI going to do?

Speaker 1: 45:21

Is.

Speaker 2: 45:21

AI going to lose a job, or is someone going to be able to become more productive? When are we going to actually put this recording out? Should I ask that? Yeah, sure. Yeah, I think it's going to come out in the beginning of May.

Speaker 1: 45:33

Okay, well, so I'm giving a speech tomorrow night, so I just I didn't want to tell them before I gave the speech that I'm using.

Speaker 2: 45:45

I'm using chat GPT to help write the speech, you know because it because? I am, and, and it's going to make it a. It's going to make it a better speech. It's going to make me able to develop that speech much more quickly, so I'm going to be more productive yeah so, you know, I think there's going to be some enhancements that are going to allow people to become more productive, produce more stuff, sell more stuff, make more money for the business or for themselves. I love that.

Speaker 1: 46:07

It's optimistic. I hope you're right.

Speaker 2: 46:09

I'm an optimist.

Speaker 3: 46:11

We went to Volta Labs for an AI kind of seminar one evening, and the thing that I was really fascinated with was this one particular company was going to be trying to turn the long haul trucking into a nine to five job, and the idea is that not to eliminate jobs but to make it so that you know if you're a dad and or a mom and you are long haul trucking, you're going to be gone for two weeks at a time sometimes and you miss your kids, you miss your family, your way whatever, and I mean for some people that's fine, but for some people it's not, and so their kind of concept that they were doing is like, if we don't eliminate their jobs but make it nine to five, they can go home to their families every night and still have jobs. So the idea was that on our highways, self-driving trucks are going all the time on the highways and they end up in these hubs where truckers are then collecting it, and then they're the ones doing the deliveries within the cities.

Speaker 2: 47:10

Oh right, yeah, and I thought that was brilliant. Yeah, it is Right.

Speaker 3: 47:13

We could literally have something going, like you know, if you get to send something out, you know Toronto to drive it straight. It was only like 15, 16 hours if you could drive it straight, but you get tired, and all this if you get to take breaks. If you didn't have to, we could literally get something to Toronto in 15 hours 16 hours.

Speaker 2: 47:29

Yeah, absolutely, and I mean there's a great example, because there's not enough people in the trucking industry.

Speaker 3: 47:36

That's another problem.

Speaker 2: 47:37

They're short people and need more people to drive trucks because, for some of the reasons you mentioned, people may not be enthusiastic about being away for three or four or five days, or whatever it happens to be to kind of get to Toronto and back round trip.

Speaker 3: 47:51

So that's where I think AI is going to help a lot of industries, and I love the fact that people who are developing this technology are thinking we don't want to put people out of work, right, I love that, yeah, absolutely Well, and I think you've got to again.

Speaker 2: 48:06

You know, you have to look at it as the advantage. What did somebody say to me the other day? Oh, people are going to lose jobs to AI. You know, am I going to lose my job to AI? You're not going to lose your job to AI, but you may lose your job if you're not using AI and somebody else, is that's true so? You know. I mean, we need to think about it. You know a lot more and in different ways.

Speaker 1: 48:29

We use AI a ton. We use it for this podcast, oh really. We use it for our Christmas special heavily. Okay, enough said, if you listen to it and if you suffer through it, you'll understand.

Speaker 2: 48:38

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:38

And yeah, but it is. If you suffer through it, you'll understand, but it is. Ai is becoming a huge component of my life.

Speaker 3: 48:43

As a creative person who likes making creative things.

Speaker 1: 48:46

It's like all of a sudden being a director and just being able to create something almost instantaneously from the labor that was involved in creating something previously. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 48:58

Absolutely. I mean, you know, I was talking to somebody today and they said, oh my goodness, my emails never stop. My emails never stop. Listen, I remember a time and it sounds terrible. You know, it sounds like the old guy, you know, here's the old guy.

Speaker 2: 49:11

I remember a time when I could get three documents out a day. Wow them. I then had to hand them to somebody else who typed them, and then they handed them back to me for corrections. I then handed them back to them, they corrected them and then, finally, at the end of the day they went out, and now I get 150 emails a day. I mean we're clearly more productive. We're taking advantage of some of the technologies, and that's a simple technology, but there's much more to do.

Speaker 3: 49:43

I think in the end, people are still going to value relationships oh because you're not going to be loyal to a computer, right, like, yeah, I I've said this probably many times before, but it's like people remember how you made them feel right and a computer is not going to make me feel any particular way other than like is the job done, I guess you saw that movie, though, right with the uh guy that fell in love with his scarlett johansson yeah the circle the

Speaker 2: 50:09

circle or no? No, that was a different one.

Speaker 3: 50:11

Forget it either way but yes, yeah, I know what you mean, but yeah, so that's the thing. People value relationships. So I think, as long as you have that human element where people are like, no, I want to, you know, it's like people might've joined the chamber because of the things that you guys are doing and the relationships that they're building, right, so they, they want to show up to that community.

Speaker 2: 50:31

Yeah, right it was just simply a directory.

Speaker 3: 50:34

Yeah, maybe they see value in it, maybe they don't Right, yeah, yeah, so it's a little different.

Speaker 2: 50:39

Can I reflect for a minute?

Speaker 2: 50:41

while you say that, I mean you know, as I'm getting to the end of my you know I'm not there yet, you know, and I'm still there every day. But you know, as I look back, I mean some of the things, I kind of look and say I wish I had actually kept some of those relationships, you know, for the people that I was working with 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago. And I certainly have some of those relationships. But networking and valuing some of those relationships can go a long way. Thinking back to the people that I went to school with, thinking back to the people that I met early in my career some of those people are senior executives now, some of them may be retired now, but I kind of like to know what they're doing and I bet I could have had sort of maybe it's more fun, maybe it's more opportunities to develop some of the businesses that I had had. I stayed in touch with some of those people.

Speaker 3: 51:34

Anyway, sorry, you've made me reflective. No, I think that's great. It's good. So what made you decide? Now is the time to call it quits.

Speaker 2: 51:47

Oh gosh, that's a good question. You know well I have children. My children are older and more mature and they have children now. So you know my son is in Toronto. He travels a lot. His wife travels a lot. You know I'd like to go to Toronto for two. You know my son is in Toronto. He travels a lot, his wife travels a lot. You know I'd like to go to Toronto for two, three weeks. Help them take care of the five-year-old and the three-year-old. If they'd like to have me come.

Speaker 2: 52:13

But they seem enthusiastic about it. So, you know, my wife and I could take the opportunity and we could do that. I'd like to travel a little bit more, see some of the sites that I haven't seen yet, and so I think those are some of the things I'd like to do, and I think I'd like to do something else, not that I'm racing to another job, because I'm not, but I'd like to do some project stuff. Start a podcast Maybe not.

Speaker 1: 52:39

No, no, I've got to leave it to the experts, but if maybe one of you is off one day you know that would that there you go we're calling us up, all right okay um, yeah, so I mean contract worker.

Speaker 2: 52:52

you know some of those kinds of things I think I'd I'd be anxious to to help, uh, some of the folks that I, that I work with now, some of the businesses that that I've grown to know, um to know, over the last 10 years or longer in this community, and help them out it sounds like you're at a point in your life where you just want to be able to each day pick and choose what you want to do with your life.

Speaker 2: 53:17

Well, for sure, I think that's partly it. But if you looked at my resume you've seen I've had way too many jobs, that's a very good name for your memoir, your book when You're Done, that's right.

Speaker 1: 53:28

way too many jobs.

Speaker 2: 53:30

This is the job I've had longest in my entire career, so I am someone who moves around a little bit and perhaps craves a little bit the fact that I need to think a little bit more and I need to be challenged a little bit more. Not that this isn't a challenge, because it's a challenge every single day, but learning something new. That's actually what I've loved about this job most is I get to meet businesses and I get to learn about their business.

Speaker 1: 54:02

You get the challenges of every business model imaginable.

Speaker 3: 54:04

I do, and that's amazing for me. We kind of learn a little bit of that, we're in commercial insurance right. So that's one of the things that I really liked about it was that we get to talk to entrepreneurs every day and find out what they do. You get to see a little bit how it's made and things like that. Right, the, the, the. You get to see a little bit how it's made and things like that right yeah, so I I get that very much about how interesting that could be.

Speaker 3: 54:27

Yeah, but I also, I, I get it. You get a bit of an itch. Yeah, um, you know, I uh, you know, mike and I created this thing and we're doing this kind of like on the side and stuff like that, for because we were like ah, we want to have something of our own and kind of scratch an itch.

Speaker 2: 54:42

Yeah yeah, no, absolutely. I mean as well. My wife and I have raised CNIB puppies, so for the. Canadian National Institute for the Blind.

Speaker 1: 54:50

Wow Four puppies over the last five or six. I donate to them every month. Oh, there you go. That's wonderful, that's great, that's wonderful.

Speaker 2: 54:56

So I can show you pictures of some of the dogs he raised. Those dollars are going to good use.

Speaker 1: 55:02

We don't get paid.

Speaker 2: 55:04

But you know I'm happy to get up at 5 o'clock in the morning with that dog and take them out and help to train them. And we've luckily had two of the four dogs that we've had who were successful and became guide dogs, two of them not quite as successful but, still great dogs. We have one, you know. They were kind enough to give one back, so we actually got. Well, yeah, so we had we have one now that we got back, and then we have our own dog.

Speaker 1: 55:31

It's an amazing program. It is a great program.

Speaker 2: 55:34

For great program for people who you know need the need that service dog to help them with mobility and to kind of have a successful life.

Speaker 3: 55:44

Yeah, awesome, that's really cool. There you go. There's something that we learned that we couldn't research on you.

Speaker 2: 55:51

Yeah, well, maybe I should put that in there. But yes, you're right, that's very good. Well again, when you don't get paid, you don't put it on LinkedIn, fair enough.

Speaker 3: 56:06

Well, you know, know, volunteer work, that's true, volunteer work absolutely is very important, it does matter, it does absolutely great on a business resume. I know me personally, uh, when I was in my mid-20s and I was trying to break through into you know the business world and develop my network and things like that, um, and you know, when I was struggling to do that, uh, I actually where it kind of clicked and where it turned around for me was doing volunteer work, sitting on boards and doing some other things.

Speaker 2: 56:28

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I sit on the Dalhousie School of Management advisory board and I'm the chair of the TELUS Atlantic Community Foundation, which is a group that gives away money. So it's kind of a nice board to sort of charities and not-for-profits who are seeking support to assist with children, you know, with a bit of given that it's TELUS, a bit of a technology view and that sort of thing as well. So, yeah, it's a great, that's a great initiative.

Speaker 3: 57:03

It's something that I honestly, when I have young people who are working and they say, like you know, I'm trying to build my network, I always say volunteer.

Speaker 2: 57:11

Yeah, absolutely right. No, you're absolutely right yeah.

Speaker 3: 57:15

So how does somebody get more involved with the chamber Outside of becoming a member? Yeah, like what can people do Well first with the chamber outside of becoming a member? Yeah, like what, what can people do well first? They want to become a member.

Speaker 2: 57:25

Of course that's very important uh, but, but after you become a member, uh, I mean, we're, we're always looking for folks, um, I mean, we have an advisory uh committee. Um, next week, we have somebody coming to talk to us uh, about, uh, the federal election, who tends to be a bit of an, uh, an election organizer. So I'm, I, so I'm anxious to hear him speak at that point, because we'll be past the debates which are taking place over the next, yeah, this week. So that'll be fun. There's a member right there, right behind us. Oh, there you go. So, yeah, so we're sorry, I lost my train of thought when I saw a member.

Speaker 3: 58:05

I got so excited and you know I've seen him at every event. He's that. Yeah, will Brewer, will.

Speaker 1: 58:10

Brewer right there. Yeah, okay, cool, yeah, yeah, yeah. So last Chamber event I think I met him. Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so how? So? How do you get involved? How do you get involved?

Speaker 2: 58:19

So, advisory group. You can become an ambassador. Just coming to chamber events. You know we have a business after harvest tomorrow night. I think it's sold out, actually at Southwest Properties That'll be. I think there's 75 people coming to that. Awesome, that's a good. You know that'll be a good event at the Canard, so that's kind of an interesting opportunity for us to view what's going on down there. We have Pints and Pointers going on next week. You know there'll be some learning that'll happen there. You know there's lots of great events, educational opportunities. You know folks can take training programs. You know we had a great training program on artificial intelligence led by the folks from Simplicity, who did a really great job, sort of articulating what you can actually do. If you're a marketer, use these things. If you're a manufacturer, do these things. And it was very specific to specific artificial intelligence packages, which I found really really helpful. You know that kind of thing. And then of course, there's the advocacy side. You know that kind of thing and then of course there's the advocacy side.

Speaker 3: 59:25

So you know we're we're always anxious to get feedback and get information so that we can take that information and and then speak to to folks in government would you say that that's the biggest thing, because when someone's sitting there and they're looking at the membership and it's like I think it's five hundred dollars, it kind of depends. It kind of depends, I mean, it starts there.

Speaker 2: 59:39

Yeah, I mean for not not-for-profits. It's much less than that about half of that. But yeah, it'll be sort of $300 to $400 to kind of get in there.

Speaker 3: 59:49

So would you find that that is the most like valuable thing that you could take as the advocacy Like what are the features to it if you had to sell it to somebody?

Speaker 2: 1:00:08

Yeah, I mean it kind of depends on the business you are. So you know, if you're a business of three or four or five, you may be more concerned about the cost savings that we offer through affinity programs. You may be more concerned about the chamber benefit plan, which provides you with, you know, dental or physio and all that kind of stuff at a very reasonable cost because it's shared kind of across 34,000 companies across the country.

Speaker 3: 1:00:25

That's kind of good for those solopreneurs.

Speaker 2: 1:00:27

It is really really good and we have over 700 companies that take advantage of that. So if you're a smaller business, you tend to be more concerned a little bit with the cost savings and the educational improvements. As you get a little bit bigger, you tend to be a little bit more concerned about some of the advocacy things.

Speaker 3: 1:00:45

Right.

Speaker 2: 1:00:46

That tends to be the way it kind of works. I mean, you know, certainly small businesses are concerned about advocacy, they're concerned about minimum wage, they're concerned about tax rates, they're concerned about those kinds of things. But you know, as you get to tax rates and that sort of stuff, it tends to be slightly bigger businesses that are a little more concerned. You know. You know, cpp is increasing, you know that's right they would like to you know bigger businesses are going to face a bigger impact than a smaller business.

Speaker 1: 1:01:13

You know, although proportionally maybe, you know, I think it's a good time to get to our 10 questions. What do you think? Oh gosh, 10 questions. So I think I got six written down, but we'll make up the other four.

Speaker 3: 1:01:25

Yeah, there we go. How's that?

Speaker 1: 1:01:26

sound. Okay, we were running late today. But first, before we do that, I just do want to say cheers to you, oh, cheers, and your retirement. Matt and I have success. We met a lot of people just at the Exhibition Park one year, the other week?

Speaker 3: 1:01:41

Yeah, that was a great event. Yeah, so were you there for that?

Speaker 1: 1:01:44

one as well.

Speaker 2: 1:01:47

Well, and before we start, I just want to say again that you know, look, perhaps I'm the face a little bit of the time, Maybe I'm the face a bunch of the time, but it really is a team and a group.

Speaker 1: 1:01:58

You know Becky, you know Emma, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:02:03

Najah, I should name everybody, and now I just haven't, so now I'm going to be in trouble. But whether it's Nick in policy or Kent in policy, or Emily who writes the magazine, or Will and Jen and Julia who are selling memberships, or Sandra or Ashley or Lawrence who does the accounting in Brusola, anyway, did I miss anybody? I probably did. Oh, and Mandy, you know who works the front desk. I mean, you know it's a team who make things happen.

Speaker 3: 1:02:31

No, that's fantastic. So how many people?

Speaker 2: 1:02:34

work in there About 17 folks. 17 folks work in there, Okay cool, wow, okay, cool.

Speaker 3: 1:02:39

All right can you read that there, matt, I sure can, okay.

Speaker 1: 1:02:42

Perfect, okay, so we have six questions here. Then you and I have to make up the last few questions because we ran short on time. Today we had a busy day at the office.

Speaker 3: 1:02:52

Okay.

Speaker 1: 1:02:54

So I'll start Aside from Halifax Chamber. President, you're a managing partner for Break it Group Inc. Yes, what is one thing you wish you could break and rebuild for small business owners in Halifax?

Speaker 2: 1:03:08

Oh, God, gee, that's a tricky question. Gee whiz. So yes, so I mean, I started my own business, I ran my own business and I titled it Break it Group. And the reason I titled it Break it Group was because sometimes I think you do have to break things to kind of rebuild them. So that was kind of the goal. What's the one thing I would break and then rebuild? Gee, you know what I would probably do, and it's actually a bigger thing. I would probably break the tax system, okay, and then rebuild it because it doesn't work quite as well as it should for small businesses or for individuals. I mean, you've kind of got a lot of little things that have been built over time. I think it could be much simpler. There are other ways to build a tax system that could be much simpler for everybody along the way. Cheers to that.

Speaker 3: 1:04:05

Yeah, okay, all right. Question number two these are all over the place, just so you know. If you could have the exact same meal for supper for like one week, like every day, what would it?

Speaker 2: 1:04:17

be Well. My wife I uh argued about dinner tonight and we I think we settled on spaghetti uh, so I could do spaghetti every night uh, but but I'm, I'm one of those guys like I'm, I could have the same meal every night and be very happy to have the same meal, no matter what it is. Uh, unfortunately, my wife is, you know, needs to change it up every now and again.

Speaker 3: 1:04:43

Yeah, you know what you and I are like that and my wife's very much like that. She's like we have to do a meal plan, change it up, but if it was like, I could probably sit there and have spaghetti for every day. Yes, absolutely, make a big batch, we'll have it for five days straight.

Speaker 2: 1:04:55

My mother used to make this amazing meal with round steak. It with round steak. It sounds very simple, and she used to drop that in mushroom soup with rice. Oh, I already got it and like you know it just tenderizes the cheap meat and you kind of get to pour the stuff on your rice and you know I could eat that forever.

Speaker 1: 1:05:14

All right. Next question what is the strangest business that you can recall joining the chamber? So a business that was a little obscure that was joining the chamber. So a business that was a little obscure that was joining the chamber. You're like, wow, that's different. The strangest business? Maybe not the strangest, but maybe name an obscure one.

Speaker 2: 1:05:29

Well, well, I mean you know well, we had. We had the coal mine in cape breton okay uh, I, I don't know that, that's obscure, uh, but it's, you know, it's a. It's unusual. Uh, we had the, we had a gold mine on the eastern shore, uh, you know, and that gold mine employed almost 300 people so I mean you know it was a big, it was a big gold mine, uh and and I kind of you know, I mean she was.

Speaker 2: 1:05:51

you know I don't want to get it down the environmental path, but I mean those are really interesting businesses because it's something I don't know about, right, and I got to talk about the roof in the, you know, in the coal mine and I got to talk about, you know, the gold mine and how the process works and how it's different than it used to be 100 years ago. So I mean that's really interesting stuff for me. I got to travel to Alberta and view the oil fields in northern Alberta and had to fly in. That was pretty amazing, as well so that's pretty cool stuff.

Speaker 3: 1:06:24

You went in a very different direction. I thought you were going to say, like you know, we had like a series of Elvis impersonators or something like that Burlesque coast.

Speaker 1: 1:06:32

Well, I can show you.

Speaker 2: 1:06:34

We have had Elvis impersonators and drag queens and all sorts of things, so I mean it's all good.

Speaker 3: 1:06:46

These are all small businesses. Oh, absolutely, yeah, All right. So question number four is what is one reason the Halifax Chamber of Commerce is an important part of the business community, so one big reason why it's important.

Speaker 2: 1:06:55

I think the gosh. You know, I don't know if I can come down to one, but I'll try to narrow it down. You know, I'm kind of wrestling between education and advocacy, and it might actually be the same thing, because providing information for people, getting the feedback and then kind of looping back to advocacy, I think is probably the most important thing from my perspective.

Speaker 3: 1:07:15

Okay, good answer All right.

Speaker 1: 1:07:16

If you could invent a new holiday, what would it be and how would it be celebrated?

Speaker 2: 1:07:22

No more holidays. Productivity's down remember.

Speaker 1: 1:07:24

Remember I told you, Maybe a family day or something.

Speaker 2: 1:07:29

Okay, alright, well if I was to invent a new holiday, it would be Small Business Day, small.

Speaker 1: 1:07:33

Business Day, it would be.

Speaker 2: 1:07:34

Small Business Day and we would all have to spend our time learning that being a small business is hard, it's rewarding and we should patronize more small businesses, Love it All, right yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:07:46

That's pretty good. All right, matt, we are now going. We're in uncharted territories. We messed up. You can pull a question from the previous. Yeah, I have a go, Whatever you want to do.

Speaker 3: 1:07:55

This is the one we asked the premier. Oh gosh, okay, I think this is a good one for you. Would you rather go? Would you rather travel to a place that you have already been, that you're familiar with, or a brand new place?

Speaker 2: 1:08:07

I'm a brand new guy.

Speaker 1: 1:08:09

I figured he'd say that immediately. From everything that he said and all the jobs that he's had, you're a brand new guy right now. All over you. Brand new guy, I mean I love going to places.

Speaker 2: 1:08:16

I've gone before as well, but I would rather see something new. In the last number of years I've been able to go to vietnam. I've been able to go to china. Um, you know, I've been to. Uh gosh, where else have I been?

Speaker 1: 1:08:29

um, I'm about to go to croatia on a on a chamber trip, because chamber the chamber offers travel as well.

Speaker 2: 1:08:35

Um and uh. You know, all of those places are amazing, um and so different um than what we see every day so if the chamber needs, like you know, to travel with some podcasters or something like, that's a great idea we can offer that service I should have said national podcast day.

Speaker 3: 1:08:52

That's what I should have said I've been trying to sell becky on the fact that we should be the ones hosting all the pints and porters well, well, there's an opportunity.

Speaker 2: 1:09:01

I don't think we got a sponsor yet. There you go, there you go, uh number seven.

Speaker 1: 1:09:06

I'm gonna keep it real simple. Uh, a book, uh that you might have read recently, or a book that you just like that stays in your brain, something that you recommend people read or look at. Oh gosh, if you're not a book guy, that's all right. Oh no, I'm a book guy.

Speaker 2: 1:09:18

But you know and I'm terrible, terrible at titles there's a great book that I have on my desk that I'm about to read, on kind of how to improve your business, called Traction. That's kind of an interesting idea. There's a new book that I've listened to as an audio book but it's still I think I'm only halfway through and I'm at like 14 hours and it's about health and it's kind of a good health. It's a great, big, thick book and I can't remember the name of it, but it tells you how to live a healthy life and how important living a healthy life is, how you should. It kind of talks about I'm trying to remember the line but you want to live a good, long, healthy life and die fast, as bad as that sounds healthy life and die fast.

Speaker 1: 1:10:01

As bad as that sounds.

Speaker 2: 1:10:02

You don't want to get to 50 and start declining. You want to get to 85 and decline fast from 85 to 90. I mean my mother's 92. So you know I don't want her to decline. But you want to have that long healthy life and then decline fast rather than have a long slow decline if you can.

Speaker 1: 1:10:21

I like that. It makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 3: 1:10:22

Yeah, Okay, so question number eight is one that I think you'll find interesting. The Chamber's done a really great job about being very inclusive. Yeah, and so why, in your opinion, what would be your reasoning or why would you say to businesses about why DEI programs and you know policies are a good thing for their business?

Speaker 2: 1:10:46

Because it makes them a better business. I mean, that's the simplest answer and the easiest answer and I would say it's been proven. Deloitte has done studies on how you know a more diverse business actually is a better business than a business that is not as diverse. That's you know that's diverse business actually is a better business than a business that is not as diverse. That's, you know, that's sort of number one, number two if you want to sell more stuff to more people and it's not always about selling, but you know people think Well it is.

Speaker 2: 1:11:13

if you're in business, though, it is you know, and whether it's about selling or convincing or enabling or educating or whatever it is, I kind of think of it all as selling, and maybe I shouldn't, but I'm a marketer and that's just how. I think, and you know, if you want to be able to do that, you want to have folks around you who understand the other folks that are around you.

Speaker 2: 1:11:34

I couldn't agree with you more so you can talk to all communities to ensure that you're presenting them with something that they're going to be interested in.

Speaker 3: 1:11:43

I talked about this in a past podcast. Couldn't agree with you more. I grew a business one of the other companies I worked for solely based on the fact that I went out and found people who would speak six different languages to do that.

Speaker 2: 1:11:57

Yeah, exactly, yeah exactly.

Speaker 1: 1:11:59

Cool, I think we're at our 10th question right Nine.

Speaker 2: 1:12:02

Oh damn, oh boy, here we go oh.

Speaker 1: 1:12:04

I've got to make something up, oh, okay, okay, I'm a big music guy, yeah Right. So let me know what is one of your ride-or-die albums from any time. Gosh, if you're not a music guy.

Speaker 2: 1:12:20

You know I'm probably one of those guys that you know I listen to. You know I don't know. You know what would it be called Like Yacht Rock?

Speaker 1: 1:12:29

and you know, and Frank Sinatra you know and Teddy Swims.

Speaker 2: 1:12:34

You know, like you know, I enjoy music and I enjoy a lot of different kinds of music. So I think great music is, you know, is whatever.

Speaker 1: 1:12:45

Okay.

Speaker 2: 1:12:45

You know, whatever you think, it is so.

Speaker 1: 1:12:50

I don't know, can I have a little bit of fun with you then? Eclectic use of music. Just go a little bit further in this question. Sure, please do when you were a high school student. Yes, Okay what was the band or the group that you were listening to? Oh, okay, cool, you know, it was April.

Speaker 2: 1:13:03

Wine, like when I was a high school student, it was April Wine and it was BTO and it was Kiss. And you know, I saw who did I see, you know, at the forum. I saw Kiss at the forum and I saw BTO at the forum and I saw April Wine in my high school and you know, and those were bands that were pretty exciting at the time and Joe Cocker and Joe Cocker. And not Queen.

Speaker 3: 1:13:26

Kiss was at the Forum. Super Tramp Kiss was at the Forum, so you probably would have seen Kiss when they were also on the Commons. What was better, kiss back in high school? No, I didn't see them on the Commons. No, I didn't.

Speaker 2: 1:13:37

I probably wasn't living here at the time, oh maybe not.

Speaker 3: 1:13:42

Yeah probably wasn't living here at the time.

Speaker 2: 1:13:43

Oh, maybe not yeah, but but I mean kiss, you know it's kiss, it's one of the greatest shows.

Speaker 3: 1:13:45

I mean you just want to rock and roll all night and part of part of every day, every day, part of every day, exactly all. Right now we're at our last question, so the last question is the one we ask everybody all right and so that is what is one piece of advice that you were given, that you would like to pass on to us and our listeners.

Speaker 2: 1:14:06

The one piece of advice. You know it sounds a little trite, but you know I had a boss. I first started working after I graduated from university. I started working for Procter Gamble in Toronto and my first boss said to me you know you got to do what you love. And he said you know, if you don't love marketing because that was the job if you don't love marketing, you shouldn't be doing it.

Speaker 1: 1:14:32

And.

Speaker 2: 1:14:32

I loved it. I loved marketing, even though I went to school for accounting and I got all my accounting you know courses and all those sorts of things and was going to become an accountant and for many people that would be great and I rely on that accounting skill every single day. But he said you got to do what you love, and I kind of always done what I love and if I didn't love it I stopped doing it, started doing something else that I loved so, yeah, brilliant, that's great.

Speaker 3: 1:14:58

I think that's pretty genuine, pretty Pretty awesome, so yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:15:02

Well that is it, Patrick. Okay.

Speaker 3: 1:15:04

Cheers.

Speaker 1: 1:15:04

All right.

Speaker 3: 1:15:05

Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 1: 1:15:06

We really appreciate it. You're welcome to come back anytime after your retirement. You want to come over and pontificate?

Speaker 2: 1:15:11

with us or whatever, anytime that's great Thanks, thank you.