Afternoon Pint
Afternoon Pint is a laid-back Canadian podcast hosted by Matt Conrad and Mike Tobin. Each week they meet at at a craft brewery, restaurant or pub with a surprise special guest.
They have been graced with appearances from some truly impressive entrepreneurs, athletes, authors, entertainers, politicians, professors, activists, paranormal investigators, journalists and more. Each week the show is a little different, kind of like meeting a new person at the pub for a first, second or third time.
Anything goes on the show but the aim of their program is to bring people together. Please join in for a fun and friendly pub based podcast that is all about a having a pint, making connections and sharing some good human spirit.
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Afternoon Pint
Don Mills and David Campbell want you to embrace bold ambition for Atlantic Canada.
What if Atlantic Canada could harness wind resources equivalent to Alberta's oil wealth or Quebec's hydroelectric power? Don Mills a career entrepreneur and social engineer and David Campbell, seasoned economic development expert with decades of regional insights, join us to challenge our thinking about Atlantic Canada's economic future.
The duo's new book "Towards Prosperity" couldn't arrive at a more critical moment. With the Trump presidency threatening Canadian trade and requiring a rethink of our economic positioning, Mills and Campbell offer a practical roadmap focused on resource development, immigration, and entrepreneurship that crosses political divides.
"We've (Atlantic Canadians) have developed a philosophy that we don't have to do anything because somebody else is going to pay for our lifestyle," Mills observes, confronting the uncomfortable reality that equalization payments from resource-rich western provinces have created complacency. The statistics are striking: Atlantic Canada has one public sector worker for every four employees versus one in five nationally – essentially "playing a man short" in wealth creation.
Are you ready to think bigger about our economic future? This conversation and their book will help change how you view Atlantic Canada's potential. Your can find Toward Prosperity: The Transformation of Atlantic Canada's Economy on Amazon and local bookstores.
Kimia Nejat of Kimia Nejat Realty
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Cheers.
Speaker 2:Cheers.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Afternoon Plankton. I'm Mike Tobin, I am Matt Conrad, and who do we have with us today? Don Mills and David Campbell. All right, I believe you guys have a podcast.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we do Podcast collaboration.
Speaker 4:That's it. Yeah, we've been doing ours for more than four years now. We've got last count 215. Wow.
Speaker 2:Okay, 215. That's impressive.
Speaker 4:Well, you know how much work it is right.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah. Did you ever think it would get that far?
Speaker 4:No, honestly.
Speaker 1:No, like when you first started. What was the idea? What did you want to do in the first place?
Speaker 4:Well, I needed a channel to pursue some of my things that I've advocated for for a long time. David had already been doing a podcast for about a year before we collaborated, and he was doing kind of the same thing around the economy.
Speaker 2:And so when we teamed up, it was natural for us to team up and do a podcast together. I started a blog in 2004. Yeah, okay, that content is still there at david w campbellcom. Most of it is absolute garbage from the early days. A lot of politics, a lot of crapping on bernard lord, but yeah, so I've been trying to do this sort of communication and communicating ideas for many, many years and this was a good extension of that, back in 2010, I did a video for a while a local videographer in Moncton.
Speaker 2:I did a weekly news show. It died out. So yeah, I've been doing stuff for years.
Speaker 1:And I'm subscribed to your Substack. So you're still writing, yeah, so I evolved.
Speaker 2:The blog used to be in WordPress and then I moved to Substack.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and how's that working for you?
Speaker 2:It's good. 1,500 users right. Wow, weekly downloads, that's great.
Speaker 3:Yeah that's good and I mean, I think so, don.
Speaker 1:You've been on our show before and if you should go back and listen to that episode I was probably a little rustier then too. But you know, we kind of got a lot of your back story. But I'd love to know a little bit more about you, Like, what's your back story in economics?
Speaker 2:So the back story is I got a master's in business and I came back to New Brunswick in the mid-'90s early mid-'90s and there was no work to be had. But I eventually got a short-term job with the government of New Brunswick in something called economic development. So there was actually a group of people and their whole mandate was to go out and convince companies, mostly in Toronto, to set up operations in New Brunswick. I thought that was the craziest thing why would anybody ever want to move an operation from Toronto to Moncton? But we had tremendous success. My job was to write the business case. So we would write business cases with an economic model that showed it was 19% cheaper to do business in Moncton than Toronto. And, sure enough, we attracted UPS and Air Canada and Federal Express and a whole bunch of these companies. Exxonmobil All of those big name companies came in the late 90s as a part of that initiative. So then that started my 30 year interest in how you foster regional economic development in places like Atlantic Canada, and most of my career has been somehow related to that.
Speaker 2:2015 to 2017, I was chief economist with the government of New Brunswick and the thing I'm most proud about that 2015 to 2017, I was chief economist with the government of New Brunswick and the thing I'm most proud about that was in 2017, we released the population growth plan. It got booted out of office in 2018. But the plan we saw a great population growth in New Brunswick not necessarily as a result of that plan, but we identified the issues and, yeah, we've seen record population growth since then. So that's the story 30 years Followed this guy. For 20 of those years he has. I like to say that I know all the Stats, canada data back and forth like nobody's business, but he knows what's in your soul because he's been polling Atlantic Canadians for 40 years.
Speaker 1:Isn't that the truth, very?
Speaker 2:true yeah, he probably knows more about us than we do. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't know if it's just because my mother worked for Don back in the 90s, but I've always found statistics and polling and that stuff really interesting.
Speaker 4:I was the kind of guy yeah, me too. Well, I imagine you would.
Speaker 3:I was the kind of guy that would sit there, even sometimes even just sitting on a public transit bus. I'd if I had the you know, I guess, the guts and whatever to go up. I would like to ask some. I remember doing this when riding the bus as a teenager, asking someone why did you choose to sit in that seat?
Speaker 4:like it always, it always like you should have been a researcher yeah, you should. Maybe I should have been right. You should have been a researcher. Yeah, you should have. Maybe I should have been right. Maybe I should have been.
Speaker 3:I remember, like when I got out of like school and I wasn't much of a reader and I remember the first book that made me realize, like because you know, in high school they make you read like fiction books and I don't care about that. But I, when I get out and I was sitting there like all right, I'm not much of a reader, but I remember the first book that I actually like read. That was a nonfiction book and I was like, oh, you know what I hate reading, I just don't like reading fiction. But it was a book called we Know what You're Thinking. I don't know if you remember that or know that book. It had the picture of a donut on the front of it and it was a stats book and everyone made fun of me because they were like that seems really boring. But no, I really, really enjoyed it because it's sociology, right.
Speaker 4:Yeah well, you're going to really enjoy a book then, because it's got lots of stats in it so it's a little late into that the reason you guys are back.
Speaker 1:You're back to on and you're here. I mean you guys put a book together and I mean it sounded like it took a few years to compile. This came out pro-Trump before Trump, but it seems like it might be exactly what's in the Atlantic Canada's toolbox right now for what we need to fight this guy going forward, not fight but you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:He's not mentioned in the book at all but, I, think a lot of the recommendations, such as free trade and within the provinces, are very appropriate in the Trump world and I've noticed Tim Houston.
Speaker 1:I mean it's almost like you know. This book seems to really be coming out at the right time, because just in the last few weeks I've seen Houston really preaching.
Speaker 3:He's leading the way.
Speaker 4:Leading the way to take the.
Speaker 1:NOAA to Nova Scotia and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 4:I'm leading the country.
Speaker 1:I mean, let's ask you about this. I'd just kind of love to hear your insights on this. What did this? I've just kind of love to hear your, your insights on this. Like, what did you think about this uranium thing? Like so we had to kind of come and then it kind of it. It it came in pretty aggressively and suddenly without much like oh, uranium. Like well, we, I think a lot of people surprised by that and then it seemed to well, no interest, and then it just went away in our book we uh spend a lot of time talking about uh natural resources and the fact that we have not taken advantage of our natural resources and, you know, uranium is one of those minerals that the world needs.
Speaker 4:The last, you know, cop conference. They said that the agreement was to triple the amount of nuclear energy.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 4:Seeing that it was clean. And what does that mean? It means that there's going to be a great need for uranium. Well, nova Scotia has uranium, yeah. So can we not figure out how to use uranium? And Saskatchewan has? They've been mining it for 60 years without any issue with their population, without any health problems.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you saw right away there was protests.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but this is the problem, Mike, that we have in this region. We've developed a philosophy that we don't have to do anything because somebody else is going to pay for our lifestyle.
Speaker 1:Is that the philosophy, or do people know that they're doing that Like? I mean? You know, I mean, I know that's like. I mean maybe they're doing it ignorantly and don't understand that how it works. No, but this is the issue.
Speaker 4:Like you know, we spent the last how many decades you know not having to figure it out ourselves? Yeah, because somebody else is paying the bill. Decades, you know not having to figure it out ourselves you know, because somebody else is paying the bill. You know, and how are they paying that bill?
Speaker 4:by the way, right, they're mining, they're you know drilling oil and gas, and they're using the proceeds from that to keep us in the lifestyle to which we become comfortable. So we don't need to do that because somebody else is doing it for us. Now I don't think people think that way, but that's actually what's happening. So let's just get back to what's happened recently. So I applaud our premier for taking the moratorium off uranium and he put it out there for a bid and he didn't get any bids and people said, oh see, nobody's interested in it. No, that is not true. I just told you that there's going to be a big demand for uranium. So why didn't people bid? Because in Nova Scotia we have the reputation of being the worst mining jurisdiction in North America and people don't want to do any mining here because you know what? On average, it takes 17 years from the time you discover a mineral to the time you can produce it.
Speaker 3:Really.
Speaker 4:I don't know how many people are prepared to wait that long to get their investment back.
Speaker 3:No, that's true, right.
Speaker 1:And why does it take 17?
Speaker 4:years. Good question? Good question Because we've got all this regulatory process in place and, by the way, both David and I completely support protecting the environment.
Speaker 3:Yeah 100%.
Speaker 4:But how is it that other places can you know frack for gas and David has a good example of BC or mine. You know uranium, and apparently without any difficulty.
Speaker 3:But we can't do that here. Where does that fear come from? Where are these people? Because people claim to have examples of this person's faucet catches on fire or something like that. Right, when does that fear come from and what can we do to debunk the?
Speaker 2:claims. Well, that example. They must have watched that movie, gasland. But what happens is you have a lot of. In certain parts of North America the gas reserves are right near the surface and they actually get into the water supply. So that had nothing to do with fracking. That was gas in the water supply from a natural source. Frack gas is a kilometer down. It's nowhere near the source. So there's just a whole lot of misunderstanding.
Speaker 2:And it's nowhere near the source. So there's just a whole lot of misunderstanding and I think people are looking for an excuse to not like something like that. So we just need to do a better job. How large is your family? How many is you?
Speaker 3:your partner, my immediate family. Oh, there's just three of us, three of you, right?
Speaker 2:So you guys, the government of Nova Scotia, gets about $10,000 from Alberta and Saskatchewan to pay for your public services.
Speaker 3:Yeah, with equalization payments and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:So what are they getting for that $10,000 that you're getting in services? This is an argument.
Speaker 3:Let's make it personal, but this is exactly what Alberta is using right now to stomp their feed. Exactly yeah, of course, why?
Speaker 4:aren't they? Because they're using the revenues that they're getting from their natural resources, sending that to our province to equalize and give us a standard of living that is comparable to elsewhere, and we're not prepared to use our natural resources to help out. Well guess what, guys? When the renegotiation of those agreements come due, the western provinces are not going to agree to any transfer unless the provinces that the money is being transferred to also take and use their resources, and you can't disagree with that.
Speaker 3:So I saw this really great video a two-minute video that Tim Houston released that talked about our offshore wind.
Speaker 4:And.
Speaker 3:I thought it was really interesting because he was saying that Nova Scotia, like the what is it? The kilowatts is that we use something like two and a half kilowatts for the whole province. Yeah, gigawatts, gigawatts. Thank you, sorry, yeah, so gigawatts. So it was something like two and a half gigawatts is what we use as a whole. Sorry, yeah, so gigawatts. So it was something like 2.5 gigawatts is what we use as a whole. He was talking about Nova Scotia could easily produce double that. But then he also said that if we actually go full in on this thing, we could actually produce anywhere from 40 to 60 gigawatts, which is 25% of what all Canadian energy would be.
Speaker 4:And we did a podcast with the author of Catching the Wind, peter Nicholson. You guys should read that report. Everybody should read that report, peter Nicholson.
Speaker 1:And he was on your show, right? He was yeah, yeah, yeah. Or listen to the podcast. I love him on this show actually too.
Speaker 4:If you don't want to read, it Because you know he got me personally excited by the opportunity and he said something that I will never forget as long as I live. He said the potential of wind power in Atlantic Canada and he was talking about the whole region. His report is focused on Nova Scotia but it really implies the whole region Is equivalent to the impact of oil and gas for Alberta or hydro for Quebec.
Speaker 3:So just think about that Okay.
Speaker 4:You know, so that's a big deal right it's a big deal and we just happen to have the best wind resources. Apparently, in the world we're number one in wind.
Speaker 3:I mean, if we could somehow figure out our title, then we'd be a juggernaut.
Speaker 4:Well, the title you know we've done title, you know the problem with title is regulatory Title. You know we've done title. You know the problem with title is regulatory Like you know you've got to make it easier for companies to be able to do business.
Speaker 3:I know it's been a little bit difficult. I mean there's been a few issues that we've had with the title. I know you know it was killing fish. The tides are too strong, damaging equipment to make it not really worthwhile, and I do know you know one issue was Trudeau dragged his feet on some funding with a Scottish company that was important in the Bay of Fundy and they actually packed up and left.
Speaker 2:We interviewed them. So yeah, the deep water stuff had silt problems yeah silt going through the turbines, broke the turbines and then the surface stuff. The company we interviewed yeah, the feds just kept dragging their feet. They ran out of money.
Speaker 3:They ran out of money because it took too long.
Speaker 4:And this is the problem that we have in Canada. And, by the way, carney is on this as well. He's on the idea that we need to get things done quicker, faster.
Speaker 3:Seems that way, yeah.
Speaker 4:And here's an example.
Speaker 3:He's promoting the idea that sometimes you need both federal Seems that way. Yeah, big advancement in terms of getting projects done. I personally am very excited about having Carney as PM and Houston as our Premier. I feel like they actually have a lot of synergies and I think we could, if done right the way Houston's reacting, the way he's really taking charge, I think we could be in for some a bright future. But I don't know you guys.
Speaker 2:No, the only problem there is that rumours are circulating that Houston has a national ambition, so he might end up being current.
Speaker 3:Not yet. I don't buy that. I don't buy that yet. I don't buy that yet.
Speaker 4:I don't buy that. For one reason he doesn't have French, and nobody in Canada is going to be prime minister without some French.
Speaker 3:I agree with you there.
Speaker 4:And also I feel he really is Nova Scotia first right now. I think I believe that personally myself, he's trying to do the right thing and, by the way, I don't agree with everything he's done. No, you can't For sure, but he's making the right noises right now. And you know what?
Speaker 4:here's the thing that traditionally Atlantic Canadians have gone to the federal government with hat in hand looking for money, right, not necessarily having anything in return for that money, except that we need it, which is a pretty good reason Houston has said is that with his Wind West, idea which we just talked about, that we're not going hat in hand.
Speaker 4:We're going and saying we're going to be a really important partner here for you to achieve your national sort of legacy projects that you talked about, which are really going to be energy-driven, and we just happen to have a big resource. We're going to need help doing that, including things like tax credits and stuff like that, because it could cost a lot of money, but that's a better reason to go and ask for support than say, oh, we need money.
Speaker 4:No, I agree, we're going to make a big contribution. Think about it we could have 25% of the energy in Canada being produced in Atlantic Canada. Yeah, imagine.
Speaker 2:That would be amazing. Quebec is a great example. So in the 1950s and 60s, as part of the Quiet Revolution, as a part of Quebec trying to take control of itself and its economy, it overbuilt its electricity system, mostly hydro, but it said we're going to use the surplus for economic development. So they attracted aluminum smelters and large industries and then they ended up selling surplus power into New England and making a huge amount of money for the province, by the way, which gets all tied up in the equalization. We should have that discussion someday.
Speaker 3:Yes, but Quebec has. Their rate is 45% of what we pay for power, that's right 45%, they pay 45% less, no, no, they pay 45% of. We pay for power. That's right, 45%. They pay 45% less, no, no, they pay 45%, of so 65% less, oh my God. Or 55%, 55%, wow, 55% less than what we pay. Think about what.
Speaker 1:But that's where we should be leading then to Nova Scotians. It's like you know I mean, you know, I understand what you're saying Nova Scotians are going time and time again. What's in it for me, right? Maybe that's how we change opinions on some of this Do you think that would help.
Speaker 4:I think what really helps is having an ambitious premier trying to outline a different future for the province. In my business I tracked every government in the land of Canada for nearly 40 years and one of the observations I have over that work is that when you look back on the political leadership that we've had in this region, it hasn't actually been very good. It's actually been, on average, poor. If you think about the premiers that have made a transformational change to their province, who comes up? The guy that you work for, mckenna In Nova Scotia McNeil, by the way I think actually might be in that category.
Speaker 1:And what were some of the great things McNeil did. Just kind of talk about that for a moment.
Speaker 4:Well, you know.
Speaker 1:The better things yeah.
Speaker 4:First of all he took on the unions and got that kind of straightened out, because that was a problem. But he also helped with the transformation of our health care system and I think that that was probably something that we won't see the outcome for a while, but that was really big. And then Danny Williams in Newfoundland made a big difference.
Speaker 3:He stomped his feet too, and then Danny Williams in Newfoundland.
Speaker 4:It made a big difference.
Speaker 3:He stomped his feet too.
Speaker 4:I like Danny Williams, but you know what All those people had kind of one thing in common you had a clear vision of what they were trying to do. Like, if you have a premier and you don't really know where they're taking you, which has been the norm that tells you everything you need to know. And in that book that tells you everything you need to know. And in that book, one of the things that we talk about is the need for bold ambition.
Speaker 4:Yes, bold ambition and, as Peter Nicholson said, we need to be audacious in our goals. Stop thinking so frigging small, and if you look at the offshore wind, that's an example. It's going to take a lot of money, a lot of capital, to do that.
Speaker 3:But we already have the resource needed to get it done.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and, and I think this is like this is a long-term green investment, right. 100, which is what I think everybody wants, like everyone wants. I think everyone wants energy, obviously. Uh, but the one thing that people are saying that are on both the left and the right side of things are the right saying well, we want good paying jobs, right, that you know won't cause our economy to collapse, and blah, blah, blah. Right, and we want to be able to keep our lifestyle, as is. Meanwhile the left is saying but the environment and like all this stuff that we need to do, and maybe drilling is not sustainable long term, and blah, blah, blah. Well, we have something that satisfies both. 100 right, like, yeah, just, can we just get together and do this?
Speaker 4:Yeah, the big issue, and I'm happy with the premier because he's trying to get five gigabytes or gigawatts of power built, and so he's already identified what he wants to do early and, as you said, we only use half of that, which means the other half can be what?
Speaker 2:Sold. Sold to somebody else.
Speaker 4:Bring in revenue into our province. That will help pay for other stuff.
Speaker 1:And realistically for Nova Scotians. Can that bring power down for us, Get us down to the levels of where Quebec is?
Speaker 4:It might not bring our power down, but it might stop it from going up.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:Because once it's built, you know that stuff is stable.
Speaker 1:To maintain.
Speaker 4:You're not subject to oil prices or anything like that.
Speaker 3:The infrastructure is put in place, it you know it's amortized and then, and then maybe over time it actually comes down after you pay off the equipment I don't know where this lands on the political scale of me, but in an ideal world I would love to get to that point where we're producing the 40 gigawatts and we turn around and say Nova Scotians don't pay any power and we're selling the rest off for a profit.
Speaker 1:We literally get a $0 bill. I don't know if that's a left or right idea. You could sell it. Then Imagine that If you want to sell it to Nova Scotians, you could sell it.
Speaker 3:Then I'm slightly stealing that idea from Saudi Arabia, because the fact is that they sell off their resources and their citizens don't pay any taxes that they sell off their resources and their citizens don't pay any taxes.
Speaker 2:There you go, but then there's no control on how much power you use.
Speaker 4:So you'll keep the door open in the winter.
Speaker 1:Get that third hot tub. That's a good idea. Third hot tub.
Speaker 2:I have no power bill Time for three hot tubs. But, making sure that people benefit from resources. That's a valid point.
Speaker 4:The most important thing is this, guys, is that if we become a full partner in Canada, I'm not just talking about Nova Scotia here, because we have a pan-Atlantic point of view here and that's what the book is about. We can be a net contributor to the Federation. I've done research in the past where we asked the average Atlantic Canadian if they'd like to become a half-province. Yeah, they get that part. What they're prepared to do to get there is a different matter. I get that, but philosophically we don't like being tagged as a have-not region. Right, we don't.
Speaker 3:No, and I mean Nova Scotia. Historically, when there was four provinces, we were the juggernaut, like Nova Scotia. Some could argue that Confederation hurt Nova Scotia more than it helped, in a way, because we were the number one right, but the only one at this table that remembers that is Don. Oh Shots. I have a question for both of you, though, Because you guys have an Atlantic vision in mind, that you're not just talking Nova Scotia. Throw it out to you here. Should we be four provinces or one?
Speaker 1:Whoa Whoa. I didn't see that question coming.
Speaker 4:Well, I've actually studied this question. I bet you have yeah, and you know there's no appetite in any of the provinces for bringing them together. I bet you have, yeah, and you know there's no appetite in any of the provinces for bringing them together. I think that will never happen and I actually think there's a benefit of being separate for a bunch of reasons. There is an argument for economic union, not politically union. And you know, can you imagine having one Department of Health for the?
Speaker 1:Maritimes.
Speaker 4:Newfoundland.
Speaker 1:It's hard to bring Newfoundland in to anything, because it's that far away, physically far away.
Speaker 3:They're half an hour ahead of us anyway.
Speaker 4:And not only that, but from what I know of them they're island thinkers and they tend to look inward rather than outward. That's what happens right. Island thinkers and they tend to look inward rather than outward, that's what happens right. But I think in Atlantic Canada we could have sort of key like education, health care, transportation. They could be one single entity serving three provinces in the population and you know you would have to decide where the head office was. But but you know you would reduce the cost for sure and probably have better service so david over to you, and then I got a follow-up question for that too so well.
Speaker 2:Even when I was in government, we were looking at ways to to share in the maritimes right government. So one purchaser for medical supplies and pharmaceuticals.
Speaker 4:That's an example.
Speaker 2:But the problem is if one jurisdiction gets slightly ahead of the other.
Speaker 3:So I was talking about what I call the quid pro quo.
Speaker 2:So we'll give PEI the I don't know medical imaging work and we'll give Nova Scotia the I don't know the medical buying work and we'll give New Brunswick the telecare because they're so good at call centers. So if you found some way of divvying up the work so that everybody felt they were getting their own little piece of the pie. It might make sense because this is still a region where there's the beggar thy neighbor thing, right?
Speaker 2:Nobody wants, like every time we talk about PEIs you know, literally I've had ministers in New Brunswick tell me stop talking about PEI. Okay, because we keep talking about how good PEI is doing Right.
Speaker 4:They don't like to be reminded, okay.
Speaker 2:But yeah, you could do it if you had some sort of quid pro quo where everybody you know piece of the pie.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I do want to talk about PEI though, because you know we use it as a model in the book and it will surprise a lot of people. People don't follow PEI very often, right?
Speaker 4:Right, yeah, but you know they've had the best economic performance in the region and actually in the country over the last number of years. You know it's driven by population growth, which they got to earlier. They got to immigration earlier. Wade McLaughlin was really important in terms of the Atlantic pilot program, which has turned out to be really important and successful because it matches people coming in with jobs and that keeps them here longer as a result as well. So you know they've been really successful. They've developed one of the most successful clusters in Atlantic Canada, the PEI Bio Alliance, and you know so a little province has really shown us kind of the way.
Speaker 4:Yeah in many respects and I know people get you know people from the other provinces like well, what? What does pei have to teach us? Well, a lot, apparently yeah.
Speaker 3:So my follow-up question is if we're not one province, we're four provinces, but does it make sense to have like a maritime block, almost like the block quebécois type of thing, it's like a political party that represents us, like the maritime countries, the maritime nations.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, you mean in parliaments.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So I have to tell you a funny story on that. You might remember when the liberals basically swept Atlantic Canada.
Speaker 3:Well, 2015,. Like with Justin Trudeau, that one, no, no.
Speaker 4:It might have been that they had 30 of 32 seats.
Speaker 3:In 2015, they had 33 of 33 or something. Yeah.
Speaker 4:So I went up and I talked to the Atlantic caucus on my own guy and I said to them I said this is what I said.
Speaker 4:I looked around and I said you hold the balance of power in Parliament, you can get a bunch of stuff done right now because this may be a unique moment, and at that time I think three of the four provinces were liberal as well I said go for it, right, get a bunch of stuff done. You have the power to control Parliament, because they did. If they voted on block as a block, they could get a bunch of stuff done that we've been trying to get done for a long, long time.
Speaker 2:They didn't do it, of course.
Speaker 4:That was the one time where they could have actually acted as a part.
Speaker 3:They didn't do it, but it almost feels like they somewhat did it a little bit when it came to the recent leadership shift.
Speaker 4:Well yes and no yeah, maybe it's tricky Because New.
Speaker 1:Brunswick went the other way, right yeah.
Speaker 4:New Brunswick is always odd man.
Speaker 3:They're very conservative, but I just mean in terms of like. There seemed to be these rumors of like caucus kind of saying like Trudeau, you should step down and give us a shot. And it seemed like that was being led by the maritime MPs, certainly, wayne.
Speaker 2:St.
Speaker 3:John.
Speaker 4:Wayne Long. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Some of them wouldn't be, you know, outspoken, but there were some rumors.
Speaker 2:That worked out for him. He's now a cabinet minister there you go Exactly yeah.
Speaker 4:So one of the things that we're trying to do with the book is to we're doing these podcasts and we're talking to these people that like telling these amazing successful stories and like I've always been a pretty informed person about this region, but I was hearing things I'd never heard before and some of the successes are so phenomenal that it makes you I'd love to hear, like an example of a left field success, that you know that, that you mean that you didn't see coming like out of the land of Canada, just any parking meters.
Speaker 1:Parking meters okay, that's great, let's hear it. How's that for being out of?
Speaker 4:yeah, yeah, sure so the only Canadian manufacturer of parking meters and meters is in New Glasgow, mckay Meters.
Speaker 3:Okay, Did you know that? No, I didn't know that. I had no idea.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, and they're actually a very interesting company. They've developed. Not only do they manufacture the equipment, but they're really a software company.
Speaker 3:Well, that's the way it's going.
Speaker 4:now they're managing systems for communities. They just completed the largest transformation of parking meters in the world. They converted 13,000 smart meters and 3,000 pay stations in San Francisco from New Glasgow. Now they're managing those meters from New Glasgow Wow. And now they're managing those meters from.
Speaker 3:New Glasgow no way.
Speaker 4:So they can change the rates. Time of day. They can see where the maintenance is needed.
Speaker 1:Somebody's got to work the early shift, I guess. Well, no, that's not an issue, but think about it.
Speaker 2:Amazing who would have thought that, yeah, that's an example. How about bug farming?
Speaker 1:Oh, I know a lot more about bug. I know about the bug farm, but tell us you know about the bug farm. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So they take all the food waste in Halifax, they put it in the front end of a factory. They have the flies that consume this and grow like a thousand times their weight in 10 days.
Speaker 1:And he was describing to us in the podcast the sort of love shack where they actually procreate the flies and getting the temperature right. Maybe I heard this on your show, actually on the light right, and then he's talking about talking about playing barry manilow and but anyway.
Speaker 2:So then, and then out comes this very nutrient-rich protein that they use in animal feed, aquaculture feed and chicken feed and your pets.
Speaker 1:your pets can have it too. Pet food too, that's right, they're actually.
Speaker 2:yeah, you said they're branding it on the bag because it's known to be high-quality protein yeah so 100,. What was it 100?
Speaker 4:100 tons of organic a day, a day.
Speaker 2:And every day he produces 20 tons of fertilizer and 20 tons of protein a day.
Speaker 1:So what's he doing with that? Is he shipping that outside of Nova Scotia to other countries or other places?
Speaker 2:I don't know where, but outside of the region.
Speaker 1:Outside of the region?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there are some Like there's aquaculture firms that use it here. You talked about that one Blue.
Speaker 4:A sustainable blue Sustainable blue. It's a partner with them. Yeah, so you, sustainable Blue is a partner with them. So you know that's a story like who would?
Speaker 1:have thought bugs were in business. Yeah, and he was a Harvard guy that came here, wasn't he?
Speaker 4:I mean, tell me he worked at NASA he went from rocket science to bug farmer that's amazing, yeah, cool so there's stories like that, right, and that really uh shows us, I think, what the possibility is and and and for us. We have we have a lot of things aligned at the right time right now. Uh, one of the things that's really important that we want to mention to you is that the entrepreneurial uh sort of uh community has gotten stronger over the last number of years, and one of the reasons it's gotten stronger because we've done podcasts with all the accelerators and incubators across the line of canada is we have immigrants in this region who tend to be more entrepreneurial yeah than native-born canadians, and about 30% of the people in the startup community right now are newcomers from other countries.
Speaker 4:We never had that in this region ever before, and so that's expanded the entrepreneurial group by at least 30% 30% Overnight.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 4:Because of the fact that we have all these people coming in who have a high tolerance for risk. After all, they've moved from their country to a new country that's got to take a bit of risk.
Speaker 1:So taking over even a small store or whatever is not such a big deal.
Speaker 4:No, and they work hard right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:They have a really strong work ethic, which is something that we need to rekindle here. So that's really made a difference in the possible outcome and the other thing that we're finding when we talk to these people see what they're doing. They're not like me. When I started my business, I was interested in Nova Scotia as my world. They're not interested in a local market or a regional market. They're interested in a national or international market, which is really good for our province because it means what they're going to build products that we sold somewhere else exactly money back here.
Speaker 3:That's right, yeah, no, exactly. Yeah, we need a lot of that and you know, I love that because I mean that that defeats a whole narrative that people have that are like, you know, immigrants coming here taking my jobs and all this other stuff, and that they're a burden to our society, which really 30 entrepreneurs means we just like that's a huge growth and that's creating jobs and bringing money here that would not normally be here, like that's a good message that we should really be shouting at every chance we can.
Speaker 4:Well, you know, PEI has disproved this fallacy that immigrants take jobs.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And, in fact, the BioAlliance. What percentage of the BioAlliance companies have formed?
Speaker 2:Half, half, half of the CEOs of the startup companies. Companies have half of the CEOs of the startup companies have at least one foreign born founder half so they've created all kinds of jobs.
Speaker 4:Take an example of Tarika.
Speaker 1:He's been on our show and his story is amazing.
Speaker 4:He's got last time I saw 60 people working for him.
Speaker 2:He's an immigrant he's working from it.
Speaker 4:He's an immigrant. He's created 60 Canadian jobs.
Speaker 1:Yeah exactly that's what happens.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, no, no, it's pretty amazing, right? I think the I've always had that belief that if you're willing to kind of pack up and go, like that takes a really kind of a special sum down right. I often make my wife's from Quebec Quebec. So I make the joke that, like the Quebec people were like you know, they break the traditional like French kind of stereotypes because the Quebec people were the ones that left France and came over here. So they're like the tough French ones and they left all the not so tough French French ones back there.
Speaker 2:There was a researcher at UMB called Dr Michael Hahn and he looked at everybody that was born in New Brunswick from like 1950-something until the present. This was 20 years ago now, but 15 years ago and he found that New Brunswickers that were born here but living elsewhere in Canada were earned, on average, twice as much and they were three times more likely to own a business the ones that left than the ones that stayed.
Speaker 4:So it's the same thing as immigrants, same idea, it's just that you're like an immigrant from Moncton to Alberta, right.
Speaker 2:So we're in an open place like Canada where the labor mobility is incredibly easy. People are going to leave and for every one that goes out the door, you bring in two. You're all set right, but what we do is the one that leaves. We moan and complain that they left, and why are we losing our kids?
Speaker 2:and yada, yada, yada from my perspective, it's good for people to go and get a little bit of perspective of another jurisdiction yeah, yeah some of the most interesting people I know spent some time outside of nova scotia, outside of new brunswick or outside of this region, so 100 I don't you know, if our kids are leaving the region because they can't, they want to stay and they just don't, can't find opportunities here, that's a problem, yeah, but if they want to go see the world study elsewhere, do whatever I say, let them go travel's the best thing you can do, in my opinion right so, but like I said for everyone you, you bring in 1.2, you're all set Same with the dollars Most of the money in your savings account and your savings account and your savings account is not invested here.
Speaker 2:Maybe Don's different, but for most people, your RRSPs and your public pensions and all that stuff.
Speaker 3:That's all invested elsewhere.
Speaker 2:So if the money's flowing out, we need to flow money in. So we need to flow people in. We need to flow money in. We need to flow money in, so we need to flow people in. We need to flow money in. We need to address the trade issue and that's sort of the economic rationale for being an open economy.
Speaker 3:And I think we had Bradley, the Purple Cow CEO, on, and that's a prime example of a guy who left, came back and was like Internet sucks here and I'm going to do.
Speaker 1:Internet. He was mad about the price, he was just mad about the price.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he was mostly mad about the price.
Speaker 1:That's the problem he solved, he solved.
Speaker 3:It's a good story. Yeah, yeah, good story though, but yeah, it is a good story. So, no, I think that's. Yeah, that's like all very, very interesting stuff.
Speaker 2:So I mean Don's an import. He's not from Nova Scotia, that's right.
Speaker 1:We got his origin story If you go back a few episodes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, His origin story.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But how does the story end?
Speaker 4:That's what I want to know. Well, that's a good question. The one thing that we also talk about in the book is rebalancing the workforce. We're heavily dependent on public sector jobs in this region. In fact, there's been more growth in public sector jobs than private sector jobs. That's not a good recipe for the future.
Speaker 3:You said that. Yeah, I heard that. I heard that today. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And so you know, right now at least, one out of four people working today in this region work for the public sector. And in some provinces it's like in Newfoundland I think, it's almost a third.
Speaker 3:I never knew that One in three Is that because of like. Are the numbers skewed because we have like the Navy here and the military and stuff like that? No, no, no. Are the numbers skewed because we have the Navy here and the military and stuff like that? No, no.
Speaker 4:It just has to do with the fact that we've had weak economic growth for 50 years.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And I always like to believe that economic growth is tied to the private sector, not the public sector.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:The private sector creates wealth. In my view, the public sector redistributes that wealth.
Speaker 3:That's fair, yeah.
Speaker 4:That's kind of the way it kind of works. Redistributes that well, that's fair. Yeah, that's kind of the way it kind of works. And so you know the argument that, oh, aren't we lucky to have all these, you know, good-paying public sector jobs? Yeah, only if it's supported by good-paying private sector jobs, you know. And so we need to rebalance. Right now, one in four work for the government. Here In Canada, the number's one in five.
Speaker 4:Okay work for the government. Here In Canada, the number's one in five. It doesn't seem like a lot, but I always like to think that we're playing a man short and trying to keep up with the national average when it comes to economic growth. It's literally impossible to do.
Speaker 3:We're on the penalty kills, what you're telling me.
Speaker 4:Unless the guys that we have in the A's are four Sidney Crosbys which means better productivity and efficiency. We can compete, but we can't compete as it is right now, without rebalancing the workforce.
Speaker 1:We've talked about resources. I was playing around with ChatGPT on Sunday and I asked what specifically would the best options to drastically improve the Nova Scotia economy without fail? The goal would be to reduce taxes and have our province bring in a surplus without significant damage to the environment. That was just the question I threw in there. Now I got a very long answer out of chat GPT and it was a great answer, I thought. But this was their no-fail combo, okay.
Speaker 1:So number one was blue economy expansion, ocean Tech and you guys recently did an Was it Cook Aquaculture you had on yeah, we were listening to that actually driving up here. That's fantastic. The second one was remote work capital strategy. So that's kind of a cool one. And the number three is one that we've had on this show with Tukandas tech and AI hub development in Halifax, right. So AI is what everybody's racing towards now. It's like the web was maybe 20, 25 or 30 years ago. So you know we talked the resources talks. What other do you think are the major things that we could be focused on here in Atlantic Canada?
Speaker 2:Well, obviously the blue economy is natural resource-centric right and we see tremendous opportunity there, but there's a lot of barriers, a lot of government barriers, and if you look at the major ocean economies, we have one of the least from a GDP perspective in the world. That's crazy and it doesn't make sense. We have the largest coastline in the world and relatively little GDP, so there's lots of work to be done there and relatively little GDP.
Speaker 4:So there's lots of work to be done there, and Canada's superclusters focus on this. Finally, and they're early in the game, but they have a goal of tripling the revenue from it over the next by 2035. So they have an ambitious goal, which is a good starting point.
Speaker 2:In Halifax specifically. I like post-secondary education, so it's already, according to that one study we looked at, either the largest or the second largest export industry for Nova Scotia post-secondary universities and colleges. And when you walk around this city it is a young city and a large share of that is those students, right.
Speaker 3:There's just everyone. You know that's students. I hear, though, that international students actually is dropping, it's declining.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, because they've restricted work permits and spousal work permits and lots of issues.
Speaker 4:But I'm just saying, if you want, a high-value economic industry.
Speaker 2:now it's highly subsidized, but remember international students it's not. They pay an additional tuition to cover that. So there's no economic downside. But you've got to make sure you've got good housing for them and you know if they need to use a health clinic there's got to be one for them. But other than that, I love building the talent pipeline in Atlantic Canada, and Halifax is the epicenter of it.
Speaker 1:Well, it keeps them here pipeline in Atlantic Canada, and Halifax is the epicenter of it. What keeps them here then, I guess, is the next bit right.
Speaker 2:Do you think Harvard cares how many people stay in Cambridge?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, sure, you know, I don't want to be too cavalier. No, that was good, I don't want to be too cavalier, but we and Don's talked about this a lot we do want to make sure that universities are graduating enough talent for the local market.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But do we really care if we graduate twice as many engineers? And then we go to the world and we say hey, we're graduating twice as many engineers, why don't you come take advantage? And the worst case scenario they have to go back to their home country or go to Ontario or whatever.
Speaker 1:So I'm not as nervous Nurses or doctors, even though in this you know even that that's valuable now more than ever.
Speaker 2:Doctors are too controlled. If you could double the number of doctors, you'd be gold. But they dramatically restrict that because they're trying to. You know why they restrict doctor output.
Speaker 4:But I would add one fact for your listeners that I think is important. I think that the post-secondary sector is really important for talent attraction. You know I've done research in this sector and talked to international students about their plans after graduation and the study that I was involved in. Nearly two-thirds wanted to stay in Canada after graduation and stay in the communities where they're educated. So think about it.
Speaker 2:So you know, you've got places like Wolfville and Anticonish and Sackville.
Speaker 4:You know, great talent probably the best channel for international talent, because these normally come from very good families with good backgrounds and money, Money that can be attracted to our country to invest. And you know, Peter Halpin, the executive director of AAU, just told me recently they did a follow-up study and 62% currently are staying. So you know, the whole question about what is the right number of international students needs to be answered, but I think we've cut back too much. And they make a big contribution economically. Most of them spend on average, thirty five thousand dollars a year.
Speaker 4:Well, and that's new money coming into the community.
Speaker 3:that's yeah, like they. So my aunt we had actually had her on the show here because we talked she is one of the home state coordinators for the high school international student program. The great thing about that, though, is you're getting them 15, like 14, 15, 16, 17,. Whatever they come over here, they end up really enjoying the place, and then they end up going to university here, whether it be Nova Scotia, sometimes it's somewhere else in the country or whatever, but lots of them, like a good chunk of them, actually do end up just staying in Canada.
Speaker 3:Some of them, especially if they're coming from China. Some of them are like I never want to go back, it's so crowded there.
Speaker 2:So a lot of people in the Caribbean, like in Bermuda and these places, went to Dalhousie, to Halifax Universities, and so a few years ago, when Stephen Lund was trying to grow the financial services sector, he went to Bermuda and he saw all these people that were Dalgrads and all of a sudden they were setting up hedge fund management offices in Halifax. I don't know what the downside is. You end up with a whole bunch of Nova Scotia graduates in other parts of the world. So what's the downside? I don't see it. As Don said, it's a great conduit for population growth because they come here, they get to see if they like our winters.
Speaker 2:They get to try on the labor market. They can work part-time.
Speaker 3:But while they're here, as a student, what I've noticed is like, as you said, don, like a lot of them not all of them, but a lot of them come from pretty rich families and they're coming here and spending money. Yeah, just ask the car dealers.
Speaker 4:Yes, just ask the car dealers.
Speaker 3:you know when you, when you hire mandarin speaking car sales people uh, it gives you a hint about what the market is doing like I've been in the insurance industry for 13, 14 years and I couldn't.
Speaker 3:I can tell you so many times where people who are international, international students have come in and I'm like they're buying you know 115 000 land rovers and I'm like, would you like you know comprehensive and collision? And they're buying $115,000 Land Rovers and I'm like, would you like comprehensive and collision on that? And they're like, no, I don't need that. If anything happens, I'll buy another one. I'm like I wish I had your money.
Speaker 4:Well that's a good example. Imagine tapping into those people who get to experience and live in our communities for four years and really understand it, and going to them and saying we're looking for investment.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Right, and that would be. I know it's been talked about. I mean, stephen Lund used to talk about that all the time, like you know. We need to tap into those people and find out if their parents would like to invest, especially if they stay here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, especially if they stay here. Yeah, especially if they stay here. That's the thing. If we can have these conversations with them and get them to invest in whatever they want to do. It's like what do you want to do? Don't race off to Toronto, do it here in Halifax, right, or wherever they end up being, but do it here in this part of the country, kind of thing, right, yeah?
Speaker 4:You asked about what the opportunities are. Obviously the blue economy is up there, and that includes wind power by the way. But we're seeing we've talked at a number of conferences about the bioeconomy and PEI is a good example where it's kind of a bioeconomy cluster. You know that cluster draws in about $600 million of revenue to PEI every year. Wow, think about it. That's a lot for.
Speaker 1:That's a small piece of land for $600 million coming in.
Speaker 4:I think that sector is either third or fourth biggest contributor to GB Heat and they only started 20 years ago. They went from zero to third or fourth in 20 years. That's all kind of bioeconomy stuff and there's pockets of it all over the place and if we can leverage those groups, I think there's a big upside on those.
Speaker 2:But I think Dow Housing could do more, because medical schools tend to be incubators for startup companies in the life sciences or biosciences space right. So the professors and researchers come up with innovative ideas for you know how to treat, you know whatever, some disease or some muscle problem or some medicine, and I think we could see some of that coming out of Dalhousie if you look at the IntraVestor report. But I think there's more. A medical school should be just a catalyst for startup companies in life sciences, health sciences.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Great yeah. They're trying to do something with a medical school in Cape Breton. Do I remember that correctly?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an offshoot yeah it's an adjunct of Dalhousie. But PEI has a small one too. I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 4:There's a proliferation of yeah, I'm not sure about that strategy.
Speaker 2:Med school light.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm not sure about that strategy.
Speaker 1:And I guess the third, the big one is tech, AI, everything that's going on in that field, right. We have here, we have Volta Labs, we have a lot going on. It seems to be, I think it's kind of a field that everybody's rushing into and interested in. Yeah, I mean, I'm wondering how you think that could, how, Nova Scotia, how could we be a power player in that field in particular? Do you think?
Speaker 4:Well, you know. Again it comes to the incubation and accelerator programs that you know provide people with the right environment to develop their ideas and get supported and mentored and those sort of things. I think what we have right now is probably the best startup environment ever in this region.
Speaker 1:So you're saying right now it's better than it's ever been 100%.
Speaker 4:You have Volta. You have the Creative Destruction Lab at Dow. You have the Idea thing that the engineering um, you know, dal, there's lots of really good work being done the for sure, and center up in cape red, and that is uh helping to. You know, do scaled, you know experiments of uh, of new products and stuff like that. There's a lot of infrastructure in place that can really facilitate tech or bio or whatever.
Speaker 2:But at the risk of getting your listeners pissed off. It's about intersectionality.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So we have massive oceans. We should be looking at AI-related oceans and I know your daughter-in-law is looking at that.
Speaker 1:Wow, okay, we have massive forestry industries.
Speaker 2:We should be looking at the intersection of AI usage in the forestry sector. So I love this idea of us trying to get good at AI, but in those sectors that we're good at already Right right.
Speaker 4:Does.
Speaker 3:AI scare either one of you in terms of job hindrance or anything like that.
Speaker 2:Not really, but you know what this whole business of synthetic data is driving me a little weary. Have you heard about this Synthetic? No, please share. Okay, so what happens is that the AIs have run out of data, so they read all the New York Times articles, every article they've ever done. So now they have AI that's making up new content, synthetic content, so it's supposed to look and feel just like New York Times articles. Based on what? Based on what they've read.
Speaker 2:Okay, so it's called synthetic data, so they're actually creating fake data Fake news To actually train the AI, so it's a little bit creepy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:But I do think it's going to disrupt. I don't know that it's going to take 20% or 30% of the jobs overnight, but I do think it's going to be disruptive. Programmers now are going to be able to tell the AI to do the core programming. Write me a script for this. Write me a whatever.
Speaker 1:I took a web design course I don't know over a decade ago, and then, years later, I built one with a coffee in an afternoon on my computer.
Speaker 2:Just tell the AI what you want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it takes no effort now.
Speaker 2:It's crazy how much this has changed.
Speaker 4:So that's going to have hopefully productivity gains.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's the big thing Productivity gains.
Speaker 1:It has the possibility to eliminate a lot of mundane jobs, a lot of things that people don't want to do, and make it more efficient. I see a ton of benefits with AI. Personally is with AI personally.
Speaker 4:I think it's going to take a bit of time. I think so. My daughter-in-law is an expert in AI. We did a podcast with her that kind of explained it. What's that one.
Speaker 1:I'll look it up. What's it called? Which episode?
Speaker 2:It's just Jennifer LaPlante. You just search for her, jennifer LaPlante.
Speaker 1:Cool.
Speaker 3:My wife is someone who's worried about AI, not necessarily for the job loss she's a teacher, but she's just someone who reads too much about it and she reads some of the horror stories and some of the people sat on the alarms and I said something to her actually today that I just kind of believe and then she was kind of okay, I didn't think of it that way, but I said the reason why AI doesn't scare me is because at least for a job loss-wise is people need someone to yell at when things go wrong. And yelling at a chatbot will not satisfy your anger. You can train it to yell back.
Speaker 3:You can, but I still don't think. You know what. You stub your toe on something and in inanimate objects.
Speaker 2:You yell at it, but so you haven't seen the AI-generated podcasters? Oh, I've seen that. Yeah, on social media they're actually doing podcast shows with this Gemini does it.
Speaker 1:yeah, you can just throw in a topic and put in a few key ideas and it'll just planificate on it for as long as you want, they can write movies.
Speaker 2:they can write TV episodes.
Speaker 1:We did a Christmas special for fun on this show and we wrote it with AI just for fun. A couple very Christmas-y themed stories we just had fun with it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but you still had to put in the ideas. Oh well, yeah, I still had to put in the ideas, they just did the details.
Speaker 1:Yeah but it was way more advanced now than it was even then when we did that just for a fun experiment. But I guess the other thing about AI, though, that I think some people are concerned about I mean, I'm raising a 13-year-old right now like critical thinking, right, because it's like whoops, sorry, it was like that calculator back in the day, like you know the calculator, all of a sudden you didn't have to do arithmetic. Now, back in the day, like you know the calculator, all of a sudden you didn't have to do arithmetic Now it's like I don't really have to think of my homework.
Speaker 1:I can just ask Chad GPT and it will do absolutely everything for me and you know I'll be. Maybe I'm a bad parent, but there was a moment where Tracy had a geology thing due. I don't know a lot about rocks. We consult Chad GPT just to help us through it pretty quick, like so we could get that homework done on time, I mean. But critical thinking now might be, I mean this this would make it harder for your case to to get these, these, uh, of these bold entrepreneurs, these bold minds out there to kind of go out and innovate. Do you think?
Speaker 2:gonna have to adapt my kids don't, don't, don't know their times tables. Isn't that weird, they don't know, 11 times 11.
Speaker 1:They're beating my head, man. They don't know. Well, we could spend the whole podcast talking about education and the lack of it.
Speaker 4:Let's be honest.
Speaker 3:That's fair.
Speaker 1:I don't want to keep you guys too long. I know you guys have somewhere to be, so we really appreciate this. So Matt and I do this thing at the end of our show where we kind of do ten questions. The thing is, is these questions, matt, we're really like some, we ask some dumb questions and we're actually we take pride in our dumb questions and we don't have really any fun ones in here. So I invent, you and myself, we're going to have to throw in a dumb question or two just to kind of keep this on theme with the show. I can do that. We asked uh, what didn't we ask steve mcneil? Which which zoo animal he, what animal, he would like to be? Yeah, which which animal he would like to be in another life if he was reincarnated? Yeah, and what did he pick?
Speaker 3:remember giraffe I called it. I called it on the drive. Yeah, on the drive, yeah, so anyways these are dumb questions.
Speaker 1:These are. These are for just for fun. All right, so you're gonna go first, I'll so you're going to go first.
Speaker 3:I'll put you on the spot. I'm going to go first, all right. Okay, you pick a victim. You know what? Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to do a hybrid question. So, okay, four Atlantic provinces are your guys' focus. If you had to assign each province, who would be the best? So you've got hockey, football, baseball and basketball who do you think would be the leader?
Speaker 2:So Nova Scotia by far in hockey. You've got Nathan McKinnon, you've got Sidney, there's no issue there. I think baseball would be New Brunswick If you had Bill the Spaceman or Lee and you had Matt Stairs and others. So I'd say New Brunswick is baseball. Pei Curling, I'm not sure, don't they have Gooshu? Where's Gooshu?
Speaker 4:from. That's a good question. I'd say curling, and then, Newfoundland music.
Speaker 1:Rugby, oh cricket, okay, right on. So, don, I'm going to make the second one for you. This is going to get a little more philosophical.
Speaker 4:That's why I brought up my album. Okay, cool. What is the purpose of suffering? The purpose of suffering, what's the purpose of it? Or isn't there any purpose of it Suffering?
Speaker 2:I guess probably I have an answer when he's done.
Speaker 4:Probably focuses you on what's important. Great answer.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You go ahead, dave. It's the only thing that defines life, the only thing that defines life Other than that you're a rock If there's no suffering you're a rock Okay.
Speaker 1:See how philosophical we are. Matt you can pick one of the ten questions or you can pick up another one if you want to have more fun. Whatever you want to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So let's see, you know what. I have a question that could go either one. I've been someone who's always said, because people think they have this mentality of Nova Scotia like the poor mentality of what we can have here, this will be a true or false question. I think there's more money in Nova Scotia than people really realize. True or false?
Speaker 4:True, true, there's a lot of money.
Speaker 1:Alright, if you had, say, five minutes with Premier Houston tomorrow, what would you say to him to kind of encourage him, say whatever?
Speaker 2:you want. So the interesting thing there is we've actually, either directly or back channel, have been providing him information. So I would tell him to stay the course on natural resources development. Make sure you bring indigenous First Nations across, but stay the course.
Speaker 1:Steve Murphy's here. Guys. He's interviewing you guys tonight, Is that?
Speaker 3:right, he sure is.
Speaker 1:He was our guest of honor for season three.
Speaker 2:You guys are the warm-up act.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're the exact.
Speaker 2:We get started with you and then we go to Steve.
Speaker 1:He was a great guest as well. My gosh.
Speaker 3:So my next question is, as we all know, immigration focus. Hey Steve, there you go. Immigration focus has been on building and medical. If we could open up the gates for immigration to a third, what would it be? So right now, Tim Houston's focused on immigration of medical and the trades. What's a third one that we should be focused on?
Speaker 2:I don't know, maybe tech workers Again. If you lose some of them, it's fine, but if they stay, that's great.
Speaker 3:Come on in Steve. Come on in Steve.
Speaker 1:Yeah, join Dave on the mic. Yeah say hello, you guys know where to drink yeah, is it one?
Speaker 2:pint, don and Dave, is it only one? These guys, these?
Speaker 1:guys are a little sensible. Yeah, they're only one pint tonight yeah see you in a few minutes. Thanks, alright, question over to you okay, yeah, so, um, alright, sorry guys, all right, question over to you. Okay, yeah, so all right, sorry guys.
Speaker 2:One sec If you don't.
Speaker 3:I got one.
Speaker 1:Okay, no, I just got to keep going here. I got you a quote right there. Are you broke? Okay, this is a good question for you. What gives you the most hope right now for the future of Atlanta, Canada? What gives you the most hope? What makes you feel the best for the future of Atlanta, Canada? It gives you the most hope.
Speaker 4:What makes you feel the best Right now? I guess the fact that we just got our ass kicked by Trump and it's going to force us to look at things completely different than we have in the past. Then it was about time, because we are two lakhsaisical about what was going on, and it's time that we face reality in this region. I think it's going to be really good for us cool, great answer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you all right.
Speaker 3:So the question I had is is shifting a little bit, but in the economics of our uh, you know, of our region, where do you think the arts and that type of culture fit?
Speaker 1:Thank you for asking this question Because I was thinking about this earlier and then.
Speaker 2:I totally forgot about it.
Speaker 1:Thanks, man, no worries, dude, great question.
Speaker 2:Well, of course, the arts and culture sector. It provides texture, it tells our stories, it creates creative content, it drives a lot of innovation, and so there's a lot to be said about culture, although it's not all good If you think of some of the stories coming up. David Adams Richards in New Brunswick, very well-known writer, but his stories are pretty raw about Miramichi, for example and if you think about some of the stories out of Newfoundland.
Speaker 2:So sometimes culture can actually shine a negative light on your region. But in general I'm a big fan. I do a lot of work, volunteer work, with the arts and culture sector and you know I mean there's a lot of debate about the economic contribution because it is quite subsidized across the country.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's one of the most subsidized sectors because we see value in it across the country. Yes, it's one of the most subsidized sectors because we see value in it, but no, it's great. I think it helps people put down roots right If they get to know their artists and the stories that their artists are telling. So I have nothing bad to say about arts and culture.
Speaker 4:Could I just add really quickly If we want to have a complete life, we need arts and culture. I was asked to participate in the art gallery campaign. That kind of got derailed and I said to him. I said I don't know anything about art, but I do know that if we want to attract people to this city, we have to have everything to offer them, and that includes art, even though I'm not a connoisseur.
Speaker 3:I appreciate that Nailed it. I love it because I'm also a big fan of like we want to attract doctors here. They need something to do while they're not doing doctor stuff.
Speaker 1:Correct, he wants a stadium here really bad, he's going to go.
Speaker 3:Oh, that was leading up to my next question. It's your turn, so get ready.
Speaker 1:You ask your question and then we're just going to do the wrap-up. Should we build a stadium In Atlanta, Canada, or in Halifax, right here? What do you think I?
Speaker 3:mean we have an economist and we have the guy who's literally asked everybody A real stadium.
Speaker 1:Is this good or is this a bad?
Speaker 2:idea private sector right.
Speaker 4:Almost all of them are subsidized, so what?
Speaker 2:do you say Don? Should we do it? Government money.
Speaker 4:Big new stadium. Halifax is the last major city that doesn't have a stadium. Every other city has got a stadium, with federal money basically, and then usually around a big event like the Olympics or the Commonwealth Games. We had our chance with the Commonwealth Games and we failed. So the only way we're going to get a stadium is with federal money.
Speaker 4:It's not going to happen otherwise and people need to realize that and we maybe need a big event to make it happen. But I'm in favor of a stadium, by the way, but I'm not realistic in terms of how that's actually going to happen.
Speaker 3:I love it. I I think a stadium will attract more people to want to be here. There's no I also.
Speaker 1:I'm in favor of a cfl team, just so you know, oh yeah, there you go as an economist, what do you think?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think halifax is an interesting city. It's, it's, it's, it's large enough to be interesting, but it's small compared to the big cities. So I I think it needs to position itself as the main urban hub in Atlantic Canada and it probably needs this kind of infrastructure, and maybe someday even a hockey team would be great.
Speaker 3:Two for stadium. We could do better than Arizona did. I think we could actually.
Speaker 4:But the economics wouldn't work for an NHL team until we got to two million people Fair enough, fair enough.
Speaker 3:All right, you want to wrap it up with the last question.
Speaker 1:So this is the last question we had. Every one of our guests has the same last question and it's one for both of you, so it's just what's one piece of advice that you were handed down that you'd like to share with our listeners. This could be from family, from a friend, recent or from far, far past, but just a piece of advice that stuck with you all these years and you want to share with us today.
Speaker 4:Well, you know, a lot of the advice that I've got and held in my life came from my parents and they stressed the hard work ethic. It served me well. I'd like to stress that. I stress that with my kids. I think they have a good work ethic and I think they're building a good work ethic into their kids and it's something that everybody needs to think about because it's getting weaker.
Speaker 2:So, for better or worse, mine's similar. It's make yourself irreplaceable in your company, in your organization, in your school, and be deliberate about it. And I tell my kids this, and it's not necessarily easy with this generation, but if you are irreplaceable, you're golden. So look around your company, your organization.
Speaker 1:It's a less stressful life too.
Speaker 2:Who in the corporation is doing very, very well. What are they doing? Right and emulate them, but make yourself irreplaceable in your organization. It's hard work. Well, gentlemen, those are great answers. You passed, cheers.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining us and please check out the book Towards Prosperity. It's unavailable on Amazon as of this day, because I tried to buy it.
Speaker 2:two days ago you sold out the book.
Speaker 1:Is that true?
Speaker 2:No, no, they buy in small batches. Oh, okay, yes, technically, but Bookmark just down the street has it and so does Atlantic News and do you have it on Kindle for the digital folks?
Speaker 1:No, Okay, and I guess last question we're all doing audio and I'm an audiobook nerd. Are you going to do an audiobook of this?
Speaker 2:So Nimbus doesn't have audio recording studios? Well, you guys got like a studio don't you, he's got the voice.
Speaker 4:I was going to say you have the radio voice.
Speaker 1:I think you should. Well, you should do it together, yeah yeah. I mean it would be great. It's worth thinking about. How do you handle the charts, though?
Speaker 2:There's a lot of charts. How do you handle the charts? A lot of data.
Speaker 1:Oh, charts, yeah, I mean, I'm listening to an audio book right now, honestly, with charts in it and he describes them.
Speaker 2:He describes them, it gives me enough.
Speaker 1:I mean it gives me enough. He talks through the charts and I mean I get the gist of it right a lot of charts in your book though isn't there a lot? Yeah, yeah, I heard that. Yeah, yeah, we like data. Yeah, yeah, but cool, but it guys awesome hanging out with you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, I appreciate having us on.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much.
