Claudia Chender on Building a Nova Scotia We Can Afford to Live In.

We sit down with Nova Scotia NDP leader Claudia Chender for a candid, ground-level conversation about what’s really driving the affordability crisis—and what can actually fix it.

Claudia shares her journey from law to politics, shaped by her work in education and advocacy, and a front-row view of how government decisions impact families. We break down the housing crisis—from rent caps and fixed-term leases to the difference between building more units and building homes people can truly afford. Supply matters, but the type of supply matters more when luxury towers don’t help nurses, teachers, or young professionals find stability.

We also explore the broader affordability puzzle: child care, energy, groceries, and the economic power of investing in people. Claudia explains how unlocking federal funding, strengthening the caring economy, and supporting arts, film, and innovation can help Nova Scotia retain talent and build stronger communities.

From ocean tech and life sciences to energy infrastructure and cultural identity, this episode looks at what it will take to create a province where people don’t just work—but build lasting lives.

If you care about housing, affordability, and the future of Nova Scotia, this is a conversation you don’t want to miss.

Subscribe to the Afternoon Pint Podcast, share with a friend, and let us know: what’s the one change that would make life more affordable for you?

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Transcript

Meet Claudia Chender

SPEAKER_03 0:15

Cheers! Cheers! And welcome to the afternoon fight. I'm Mike Tobin. I'm Matt Conrad.

SPEAKER_05 0:20

And I'm Claudia Chender.

SPEAKER_03 0:21

Claudia Chender. Yeah. Claudia Chender.

SPEAKER_05 0:24

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Right.

SPEAKER_05 0:26

That's me.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Leader of the NDP party here in Nova Scotia. Lawyer?

SPEAKER_05 0:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

Mom?

SPEAKER_05 0:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

What else am I missing?

SPEAKER_05 0:34

I think those are the main, those are the highlights for sure.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

Those are the main things. That's the LinkedIn bio.

SPEAKER_05 0:39

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

So mother of three.

SPEAKER_05 0:42

Mother of three, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

You gone into politics when your kids were pretty small. And the main reason that I read was that you just weren't happy with the cuts to the cool school care system. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_05 0:55

Yeah, I mean I think it went back. So I I am a lawyer, and I think, you know, when you do that kind of training, you sort of think about how you're gonna use it. And I always wanted I always wanted a role in public service, making my community better. I had thought about politics. And you know, life is about timing. And so I had three small kids, and that was when we saw cuts to education, we saw cuts to the arts. I had a husband in the arts, two kids starting school, and another one about two.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

What did your husband do? I'm sorry, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_05 1:30

Well, he he trained as a fine artist and he works in arts administration now and has in various capacities for a long time. But we have lots of friends and neighbors who are, you know, artists and at the time filmmakers and people involved in that. And so that was, of course, when the film tax credit was a very important thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

Probably the first time I ever paid attention to politics growing up when I was younger because of the film tax credit and to see it happening and disappearing in places like Lunenberg. That's right. Smaller communities really messed up some places.

SPEAKER_05 1:59

It really did. And I think it was a really great example of we were talking a little bit about looking at the numbers, and it's when the numbers don't tell the whole story, right? And so we saw the near decimation of an industry and it looked good on paper, but the impact was so exponential. So yeah, so I I had been working and then I had three really small kids, and I was turning 40 and I was thinking about what to do with the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:25

And then my colleague, my now colleague, Susan LeBlanc, got nominated uh to run for the NDP in Dartmouth North. And I ran into her in a coffee shop. It was then called New Scotland Yard, it's now called Morley's on Portland Street in Dartmouth.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Right on, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:38

And I said, What are you doing, Sue? And she said, Well, actually, she said, We're looking for a candidate in Dartmouth South for the NDP.

Why She Chose Politics And NDP

SPEAKER_03 2:44

How many years have you been in politics now?

SPEAKER_05 2:45

Almost 10 years.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Amazing. Yeah, so that that that's incredible. So you you I want to go back a little bit there. Like, what did you do before politics? I know you're a lawyer, but that's a broad term. What kind of cases did you work and what kind of work did you do?

SPEAKER_05 2:58

I you know what, I did a lot of different stuff. So I went to law school in BC, I became a lawyer, I articled with the government there. So I had a good sense of how the provincial governments work. And then when I moved back here, I actually worked for the Bar Society, so the regulator. And I did a lot of legal education. So I really got to know the lawyers and the judges and the landscape. And then I had three kids in 18 months.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Yeah. Oh wow. Holy couple.

SPEAKER_05 3:23

So I had twins, and then I had another one.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Okay, I was like, I was like, I was doing math there.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

And I was like, okay, three is 27.

SPEAKER_05 3:34

Uh shortly before that, I went to work for a nonprofit, like for a nonprofit publisher.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Right on.

SPEAKER_05 3:40

And so I did that for a few years kind of through my babies as a a little bit as a stopgap. I wanted to be, I I needed to be working. I wanted to be doing something that contributed. But I sort of always knew that on the other side of that was time for the next chapter. And so timing is everything.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

Yeah. Now, do you uh you don't have to answer this question, but just for fun, like would you have made more if you just stayed being a lawyer or in law?

SPEAKER_05 4:04

Oh, probably.

SPEAKER_03 4:06

I think so. I thought I knew the answer, but I thought it'd be fun to just ask.

SPEAKER_05 4:10

But I but I but I was never in private practice, and it wasn't actually my intention to go into private practice. Like I saw myself doing public law, you know, working with government or nonprofit or doing human rights work.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:24

Part of why I didn't end up there is because I saw how slow that pace of change was and how kind of abstract it was, how disconnected you are from like human beings who want the change.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 4:35

And there's a lot of that in politics too. But there's also an opportunity to engage with people every day and hear what matters to them, and then go out and try and work on that and fix it. And that's the work I've always wanted to be doing.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

No, that that's very true. I mean, like I uh I ran in a city election in 2020, and that changed uh it's like changed my per perspective on things vastly is going out and talking to people in different neighborhoods and communities and things like that. So I can only imagine that doing it for 10 years multiple times and you know, really almost every day. Yeah, it that it gives you a different perspective on life. That's it.

SPEAKER_05 5:12

It keeps you grounded, yeah. And it's a real privilege. Like it's a huge privilege to be able to look someone in the eye and say, like, what's your life like? What's going on? You know, what's what's working, what's not working, what do you want from your government?

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:24

Um, you know, I feel like we're we're real, we we hold a lot of trust when we uh move into places like the legislature and advocate for things.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

So what it you know, getting into the politics, obviously, what made you, I mean, other than your friend, like what made you really like say, like, okay, uh, the NDP really aligns?

SPEAKER_03 5:43

That was the exact question I had right now. Oh, okay, there you go.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Yeah, what why yeah, why the NDP?

SPEAKER_03 5:48

Yeah, why NDP?

SPEAKER_05 5:49

Well, you know, I wasn't, I'll tell you, I wasn't really involved in the party before I got involved in electoral politics. That's not unusual in any party, I don't think. But for me, at that moment, what I wanted to understand was who was closest to everyday Nova Scotians? Who really understood and was fighting for things like the arts, right? Things like healthcare, right? There were all these healthcare strikes going on at the time as well, those frontline workers. Who was worried about education? Who was really gonna take seriously the education for my kids? And, you know, as I said, like I was kind of a new to electoral politics, but when I looked at who was advocating for what, you know, it was new Democrats who were advocating for the things I cared about.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Right.

SPEAKER_05 6:38

And and if you look across the country and you look historically, I knew Alexa a little bit. And so she had always in my mind been like a role model. And so I think that that set the stage historically for me. Like here's this brave, amazing woman who's just fighting for people in all the best ways, and not in all the most popular ways, right? And so yeah, and so then when push came to shove, it was like, I'm I'm not a Tory, like I was never gonna be a conservative. I know there's lots of things that that I just don't ascribe to around conservative philosophy. Yeah, and so you know, if I looked at the two left parties, yeah, you know, Stephen McNeil's party was well, okay, though right at the center, or maybe to the right of the center, and I think he would say that.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

I would actually argue that Tim's probably more left than Yeah, well, it depends what your metric is, right?

SPEAKER_05 7:28

But but the Liberal Party of the day wasn't particularly liberal, yeah. And so it was a it was a natural home for me.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

Yeah, okay. Like it's so politics in Nova Scotia can be a little funny because it does happen everywhere, but as I kind of said, like I kind of feel like the current Houston government is more left than what we had with McNeil's. And even the NDP have not been like, you know, in the last 15 years, you've had leaders that have had different kind of focal points, like with Dexter a little bit more centered kind of thing, than you know, the kind of center left kind of thing, right? So I but I find Nova Scotia like there is a little bit of hopping over each other a little bit sometimes.

SPEAKER_05 8:08

The spectrum is narrow, right? Yes, and so you've had a lot of people who have said, talked, and written about that. Yeah. Yeah. Nova Scotians are reasonable people who want someone to represent them who's listening to them and paying attention to what they want and working with integrity to deliver it. And so I think when they go to vote, that's who they're voting for, and that's that's our project. That's what that's what we're doing. That's a great answer.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

I think that's probably why we have a bit of a reputation for voting people out as opposed to voting people in sometimes, though, is because we are narrow, like you said, in our kind of political spectrum. You can't go too far either way, and we're kind of like, whoa, it's different, right? That's right. But when we just know that when we're not happy.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

And then it's like, okay, let's give someone else a go at this and see if you know they can make us happy.

SPEAKER_03 8:56

Yeah. I don't know. That's just kind of how I kind of look at it. But yeah. You know, back to you there, like, what in your mind was the biggest transition? So you all of a sudden you became a politician, right? So what surprised you most when you became a politician?

From Law To Public Service

SPEAKER_05 9:10

You know, it was really I was pretty clear from the beginning that I I I strive to do everything with integrity, and I do it for my kids, I do it for other people. And I had three really small children at the time. I think at the time my kids were four and five or three and four, I have twins. And so I just live my life, right? I think the reason that I was able to be elected is because I knew so many people in the community. A lot of that was through my kids and my involvement in my kids' schools. So I just kept doing what I was doing, right? So I I would show up at events with my kids and I would knock on doors and I would go to all the festivals, and I worked hard in the legislature. But you know, I I often say, like, I one of when people would ask me in the early days, like, why did you run? I would say, because I was tired of yelling at the radio. And and and so I just got to instead of yelling at the radio, I got to like make real speeches. But it was basically the same thing, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:08

Like instead of yelling at the clouds or yelling at the government. That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_05 10:13

But I had the operat like I had all that in me, right? Like I I knew what I wanted to say, I knew what I thought looked better, but then suddenly I I had a space to put that into.

SPEAKER_03 10:23

So becoming a leader must have massively shifted your day to day, though. Like, how how is a day in the life now? I know that's hard to say but or explain, but like, how do you feel like now like your key focuses or your key changes from that person 10 years ago or or or longer?

SPEAKER_05 10:42

I mean, I don't think I've changed that much, but the unit of measure has changed, right? So obviously, when you're an opposition critic, you have your areas that you're looking at, but a lot of my focus was Dartmouth and Dartmouth South. And and that remains where I live and where I'm focused as an advocate. But I spend a lot of time going across the province, and again, like what an amazing opportunity that is, right? I like I I get to see pockets of the province and talk to people that that no one gets to, and it's really a privilege for me. So I think that's the biggest change. And you know, and I would say that my reflection on that in terms of what's really important is we're not that different. So I think we've had a lot of political dialogue in the last few years that's pretty divisive. It's it's quietly divisive, but it's divisive. There's a real rural urban thing happening, and it's not that that's not real, like life in Halifax is really different than life in you know, then on the North Shore of Cape Breton or wherever else you want to be. But the concerns aren't that different, and we're not that different. People are worried about affordability, people prices are worried about taking the words out of my mouth. People are worried about housing. Yeah, they're less worried about traffic on the North Shore of Cape Breton than they are in Halifax for sure. But but you know, I think in general, people people work hard, right? Like people are like, look, we're Nova Scotians, we work hard, we take care of each other, and we don't have huge expectations, but but we want those promises kept, and and so those are the conversations we're having.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

How do we unite that? Like, because uh right now, as you said, there's a lot of issues to tackle, and the last thing we really need is like Nova Scotians to be like and I see it online all the time, like not everywhere is Halifax, right? How do we how do we get someone to kind of bring everyone together for that, right? And I think that could be a key to success for a political party.

SPEAKER_05 13:01

I think it's leadership. Yeah, I really think it comes down to leadership, and so I think we need the reality is is Nova Scotia is an amazing place because of every small community in our province, and the economic engine of the province is Halifax. Yeah, and we need to value both equally. Like it doesn't make one more important than the other. We need more economic opportunity in in rural parts of the province without question, but we also can't ignore what's going on in Halifax, and we need to be able to address that. And a lot of that is just about language, about making sure people feel included in what the government is doing, making sure people see themselves in those choices. And I think we've seen a lot of missed opportunities, frankly, from this government. Like we've seen a lot of, you know, well, Halifax always gets this, so we're gonna make sure that so-and-so gets this. We don't have to talk about it that way. Like we can just talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

The talent country thing. Do you feel that like kind of goes all around everywhere, like all around the world is kind of not or in at least North America, they they they struggle with these things. Sure.

SPEAKER_05 14:05

I mean, you know, it happens everywhere. Yeah. Uh but but I think leaders and particularly politicians at every level can either make it worse or they can make it better. They might not be able to fix it all the way, but they can they really can break it. And I think especially now, like if we kind of expand out nationally, globally, like this is a difficult moment. And Nova Scotia is a really, I really believe that we are poised. I always think this about Nova Scotia. Like, this is an amazing place. And and the same thing that makes us be like, we don't like anything too different or radical, like that's also our our our magic because that's what keeps us together. We take care of each other, we we've been doing it a long time, we know how to do it, we're resilient. Um, but we need to focus on that coming together, on on bringing folks together because because that's how we're gonna weather all the storms that are coming.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

So even even and like that's the thing. So even taking away the divide of like city and country, but we also have some really great communities, like kind of the these like sub-Nova Scotian cultures that exist through it here, right? That that have all different interests and pockets. I mean, we have African Nova Scotians, we have the indigenous, we have the French, we have the Gaelic communities and all this creat, you know, these cool cultures that can how do you how do you kind of like bring that all together and like kind of make sure everyone's heard and make sure everyone wins?

Campaign Values And Community Work

SPEAKER_05 15:31

We celebrate it. I mean we celebrate it. We acknowledge that our strength lies in our diversity, and then we tell that story, and we are not there, right? I mean, we've been trying to get an environment the environmental racism panel to release their report for years now, right? Like we know we have a we have a pretty tricky legacy.

SPEAKER_03 15:55

I feel like we're on a decline, if anything, and and same as the US and the partial road. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 16:00

And so, but but we don't have to be, right? We have the tools. Like I was just at uh an event yesterday at IKEA celebrating Africville. Cool so IKEA Canada and and the Africville Heritage Trust partnered, and there's an exhibit of the Africville houses in IKEA.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

It's like Did they set that up just yesterday? Because I was in IKEA like later.

SPEAKER_05 16:21

Yeah, it's up near where the food is. You were there January 31st. No, no, they just set it up. They just set it up for African Heritage Month for February. But Juanita Peters, who runs the Africville Heritage Museum, you know, she said, look, we are a beacon. We're a UNESCO Heritage site at Ike at Africville. Yeah. And, you know, we have all these amazing things happening. But you know what they don't have? Sewage, transportation, right, funding from the city, funding from the province. Right. Like so we expect a lot, we want to tell that story, we say that we honor that diversity, but we don't. And Acadians have faced those challenges, and and Gaelic Nova Scotians have faced those challenges.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

And the indigenous as well.

SPEAKER_05 17:01

And well, indigenous Nova Scotians, I would argue, are facing those challenges right now. I mean, this comes back to the rhetoric and the way that we have conversations with people. And so I think we really need to pay attention to lifting everyone up and bringing people together, right? And this is why we're always this is like a very it's a good way to look at that.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

You have to kind of lift everyone up to bring people together. Rising tides. That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_05 17:24

And and talk to folks, yeah, right? Like engage with folks. People roll their eyes when politicians talk about engagement.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:31

But engagement brings us together, right? And so we need to be able to bring these communities together.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

It's some of the most important things that you guys actually do, and I think I've said this most times when a politician's on here is people think that you know you being in the ledge is like the the work, but it's like 10% of the work. Like really. I mean, I know you guys can have long nights and stuff like that sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

But I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think 90% of the work is not done in there.

SPEAKER_05 17:58

Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, no. We um the we should be in there a lot more.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:04

We'll just take that opportunity to say that we sit the least number of days of any legislature in the country. We have no calendar, we have no appropriation, so we have a government that spends, you know, billions of dollars over the budgeted amount. So we have a democracy issue in Nova Scotia. But that being said, yeah, that's absolutely a piece of what we do, right? We engage with folks, we come up with proposals, you know, on the government side and the opposition side. Yeah. So yeah, there's a lot more than that, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

Yeah, it's a lot of work. A lot of a lot of work.

unknown 18:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Yeah, I just I just like it. Yeah, I think I that's the only thing I always try to make sure that people see it, like kind of thing. Like when people sit there and think like, oh, they they only sit this many days. It's like a criticism on politicians, which is, oh, we pay them these big salaries and they only work this amount. It's like they're working many days.

SPEAKER_05 18:56

Everybody's working. Everybody is, you know, should be working on behalf of Nova Scotians. But, you know, I think Nova Scotians are right to demand that they that you know they see their legislators debating legislation more. That's not a good idea. That they have more of an opportunity to engage in those conversations. I mean, right now we can go from introducing a bill to the bill being passed or voted down within a week. That's not very like we often will have a 300-page bill land on our desk and then they'll say, like, what do you want to say about it 10 hours later?

SPEAKER_03 19:33

Right. Yeah. Thank God for ChatGDP. You can just scan it and high and low points in a few minutes. That's what I'd do.

SPEAKER_05 19:40

Yeah, anyway, so it's it's it's challenging, it's and it's not it's not the best use of our resources the way things are running there right now, I would say. But we do our best. Yeah to persevere.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

No, that's fair. I mean, so let's get into some of the issues. I mean, you know, I I I I I understand that you're you're big on the issues. You drove a campaign on healthcare, home affordability. I mean, you know, home affordability is a big one now. And I I mean I even see it like we own our home. We were lucky to get in before the bubble started to go. And uh, but you know, it's still running a home now is more expensive than it ever has been.

SPEAKER_04 20:13

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

And even if you're quote unquote making middle class or higher end of middle class, you're probably still struggling to some capacity. Yeah. Right? So it's not just low income anymore, it's uh it's a much bigger breath that are having trouble getting through. So let's start with home home affordability. Uh because I think that's such a huge one. So, like, you know, what does affordable even realistically mean in 2026?

Rural Urban Divide And Leadership

SPEAKER_05 20:41

Well, I mean, I think if you would ask most, like, people have their own idea of that, and and I'll say that what we hear from Nova Scotians is like you said, I got in before the bubble, right? Yeah, up until the last five years, it was like if you got a job and you worked hard, you could figure out a way to provide a life for yourself and then if you want to get married for your family. Like that was a thing, you just could do that. Yeah, and I think we're still experiencing this first generation of folks who are like, oh wait, I can do all the things I'm supposed to do, and I actually can't ever see a world where I can afford a home. That's really scary. That's really hard. So I think affordable, I mean, you know, CMHC has a metric, right? 30%. Yep. They that's the mortgage stress test. It's like what you can afford, 30% of your take-home pay.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

30% of your take home pay. Yeah, right. That's what they say is affordable, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:35

So so that's affordable.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

And even like with this new, and I'll sorry to skip over you, but even with this new 5% down plan, I mean 5 to 2, 2, 2% now. It went from 5 to 2%. 2%, thanks. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's still a big old chunk of change, or it's a lot of well, this is the thing, it's a lot of money.

SPEAKER_05 21:52

So 2% sure it'll help people, but it's also gonna put people in more debt.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:57

And they don't have that choice. And so what we've said for a long time is we we need to make different choices around housing. So we've seen for the last four or five years, back to our conversation before we came here, yes, like this conversation about well, if we just expedite private sector development, then housing's gonna become more affordable. And that depends on a lot of decisions that people are making that presume that they're gonna make those decisions on behalf of people and not on behalf of profit.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Yeah, and we have to be a decision we had before we started recording. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 22:28

And we haven't really seen that. So we have seen more supply, we've seen the price coming down at the top, but for most families, just like working families, like you're out of university a couple. Years you want to think about saving for a house, it still feels impossible. And so affordable for those folks is whatever's gonna get them in a home, but we need that path, and that has not been the focus.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

Like I mean, my gosh, the rents are so high. I look at what me and my friend paid to rent a place in Halifax 15 years ago. It was a joke. Totally. Compared to that.

SPEAKER_05 23:00

I live my first one of my first apartments with my husband was on Pizza Corner. No joke. We were on Blower Street.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

We were there questions about that.

SPEAKER_05 23:09

Yeah, so there was a glowing crown on Blower Street for a while, you may remember. It was like a king of Doner. Yes. Not on that corner, but down on Blower Street. So I we called ourselves the Prince and Princess of Donair because we were just above the glowing crown.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_05 23:23

But we paid 400 bucks, right? 400 bucks a month. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Right downtown. Me and my buddy, 350.

SPEAKER_05 23:29

But we got to work okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Listen, I I yeah, I bet. Yeah. Like that's the thing. I I so I bought my house roughly 10 years ago. So their last apartment we lived in was roughly 10 years ago. And I remember I had a two-bedroom with a den, two-bathroom, two-level apartment. So I had two stories, and that was a thousand dollars a month. Amazing. Huge. Like it was actually the reason, like it was a big part of why we took so long to actually find the right house because we lived in such a big apartment. Well, renting was actually a sensible option.

SPEAKER_05 23:58

It totally was a sensible option. Well, and so so here's the thing, guys, like this is a great example of choices. So we've said to the government for years, you need to either close that fixed-term lease loophole and or institute some form of rent control like they have across the rest of the country so that people can stay in a place they can afford. And the government refuses to do it and they say, no, no, nobody's abusing this fixed-term lease loophole. But in fact, everybody is abusing it. Otherwise, rents wouldn't be going up so high. We have a five percent rent cap.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Well, that's yeah, that's why actually I'd like to explore that a little bit more. I mean, because we have a form of rent control in the sense that we have a rent capital. We have a cap. We have a cap, yeah. So explain the difference between cap and control. That would be great happily.

SPEAKER_05 24:45

Yeah, and I'll keep it real simple, which is a rent cap is a blunt instrument. If you have a long-term lease, you can't your rent can't be raised more than five percent. So what do landlords do? Well, they say, in many cases, honestly, that we're underwater with five percent, right? Like we can't afford the renovations, we're worried about our long-term investment. The you know, the excuses go from good to questionable, but but whatever. Like people have got lots of reasons that that five percent hurts. Yeah, and so they look for a way around it.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Right.

SPEAKER_05 25:18

Any business does that, and the way around it is you just sign fixed-term leases. And so if you go and look for an apartment in Nova Scotia right now, that you're only gonna find apartments that are year to year. Pretty much. I mean, 70%, I'd say.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Wow, really that much?

SPEAKER_05 25:32

Yeah, because I mean I just don't know because I'm not sure. Because landlords know that that gives the and it doesn't mean like, and some of those will turn over at the same price or at a little bit more, yeah, but it gives the landlords the flexibility to raise the rent if they need to. Now, what rent control does, which again, many, many jurisdictions right across this province, it's not like a leftist conspiracy. It's a thing that happens all over the place. So, so what that means is just that you have an increase every year, usually tied to CPI, so it's not a political number, tied to an external metric that makes sense. How much is the cost of living going up? Okay, rent should go up that high. But then you have like if landlords are like, well, I gotta replace the heating system or I gotta replace the roof, they go to the tenancy board and they apply. And they say, Well, I gotta raise the rent more than that because I have all these expenses. Here, where's your receipts? Okay, great. Bob's your uncle, go ahead and do it. So it just makes sense because the cap doesn't work, it's toothless. And and we have a government that's frozen, they won't do anything about it. And so, as you guys said, no path to home ownership. Yeah, incredibly expensive, rents going up thousands of dollars a month. And so, what's happening? Well, I don't know about you, but what's happening with people I'm talking to is they're leaving.

SPEAKER_03 26:44

Yeah. They're leaving, they're leaving, they're stuck in like broken homes. Like, it's cost the same. You break up with somebody, you can't afford to leave them. That's right. Think about your city, that's another conversation.

SPEAKER_05 26:55

That we can talk about. But this is so we know that it's as expensive to live and commute in Halifax as it is to live and commute in Toronto or Montreal.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Right.

SPEAKER_05 27:04

And if you're 21 and you come from a small town in Nova Scotia and you've moved to Halifax to like get a taste of the city and do something cool, and you figure out that you can do the same thing for cheaper in Montreal or Toronto.

SPEAKER_03 27:17

Well, it happened to me 15 years ago. I went to Calgary because I saw so much opportunity to make a lot more money, do a lot more. Right. You know, it was it was a no-brainer decision, right?

unknown 27:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:30

I mean, I love Atlanta Canada, I love Halifax, and that's what brought me home eventually, but it was it was the love, not the money.

SPEAKER_05 27:36

And you could but you could come home, right? And so that's so so everyone's gonna do what they do, but we have to create that. And and this is what makes me so frustrated because our big we talk a lot about resources lately.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:48

Our biggest resource is our people.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:51

My biggest resource is my kids. And and the idea that my kids might not be able to see a future for themselves in this province really worries me. And I think that that housing conversation, like that's what that comes back to. Who can afford to live here? And and you know, we need to prioritize that in a way that we can.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

We have to control something because if that's inflated and the groceries are inflated and everything costs so much, I mean, this January personal journey, I was sober October, but we were also eating extremely healthy in our home. And I and don't don't tell me how cheap Gateway is before but but but like I'm a Gateway fan.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

I know Gateway. I love it.

Diversity, Inclusion, And Trust

SPEAKER_03 28:32

I go to Kingswood Market. It's on the Kingswood market. But I was just teasing you. But uh, you know, I found like as we try to eat super healthy in our home for the month of January, we did our budget. I was like, wow. Right? Those frozen pizzas really save a few bucks in a pinch. Sure, they do, right? But imagine if you can only eat frozen pizzas or uh other other items from your freezer, the like freezer items, and it's just not it's it's very tough to eat a very healthy, practical diet and in Atlanta, Canada with good produce.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

I I I actually like I agree but slightly disagree. The problem, what I think, is it's it's possible to eat healthy in a in a cheap form, but only if you have the means to buy in bulk.

SPEAKER_05 29:16

And if you have time.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

And if you have time, that's true too. Yeah, most people don't have the means to buy in bulk.

SPEAKER_05 29:23

No, that's right. And and so and and there's been lots of talk about that, like not even Costco or anything like that. Like, I I have the means and the need that I buy a lot of stuff at Costco because I have to, right? I try to do like Costco and the market. Like that's what I try to buy the bulk of my stuff. Uh but you're right. Like a lot of people, it's like, oh great, if I buy three, it's cheaper, but I can't afford three. Right. I can only buy one.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

Oh, I don't need three. Like, how many cucumbers can a man eat? Well, exactly. That's fair too. That's fair too.

SPEAKER_05 29:50

Yeah, and we see that we see that it's harder for single people. We see that it's harder for seniors. Yes, right? People who I mean, if we wanted to talk about taxes, right? Like snack size things are taxed in the grocery store.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Oh, right?

SPEAKER_05 30:03

Single stars.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

How many times have I told you about stop buying snacks? They're so expensive. Oh, yeah. They inflate your grocery bills insane.

SPEAKER_05 30:10

They do, but but if you live by yourself and you're older and you don't have much of an appetite, it's like to your point, like how much are you gonna eat, right? That might just be what's available to you.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Very valid points, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:19

So, yeah, but affordability is a really big issue. And so, as you guys will know, this is where we spend a lot of our time is trying to bring those the stories about people who need to make those choices. And look, like I look my husband and I live a really comfortable life, right? I everyone I know looks at grocery prices now.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 30:40

Like, I you know, I go to the grocery store to buy butter, and a few years ago I would have picked the butter I want and put it in the cart, and now I'm like ten dollars for butter?

SPEAKER_03 30:49

Right.

SPEAKER_05 30:49

You know, I like stand there with my mouth open looking, yes, and then try to make the calculation we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

We make cookies around the holidays. My gosh, those cookies are like they're like I mean, I could have got a diamond ring for the cookies.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

My mother used to like no joke bake for an entire community, and now she's just kind of like she's like, you can't do that. Everybody gets rice crispy squares this year. That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_05 31:13

No, but and it's really hard to make those choices. Yeah. You know, food, food is a love language, right? Like that's how we take care of each other, that's how we take care of ourselves. And so we really need to see more attention on housing, on food, on those basic things that make like we're gonna talk about power too.

SPEAKER_03 31:30

So, like, we got we know housing, we know food, we know rate hikes might be on their way with our with NSP after what was a pretty interesting year. So, like, before we get into any of the other spots, I mean, where do you think that the break could most likely be? Because that's the problem. Like, I don't really see an immediate solution for food pricing getting. I was thinking the same thing. Like, how do we have to do that?

SPEAKER_05 31:53

Well, this is this is why our core focus has been on housing.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Housing.

SPEAKER_05 31:57

Because I think that housing is the biggest driver of affordability.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

It is the biggest bill.

SPEAKER_05 32:02

And it's the biggest bill.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:03

And so I think if we could bring housing under control, there's lots of ways to do that, right? We talked about rent control. We could actually, you know, I think if this government was serious about housing supply, they talk about housing supply a lot, they would be incentivizing a lot more affordable housing supply. We have great nonprofits across this province who are building housing that people can actually afford.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

I want to ask a question about housing and landlords because, and and this is like it's not in offense of a landlord, I mean, but I might aspire to be one one day and have a building that I can rent out to others, right? And just just from a standpoint, are the small landlords gonna suffer the like suffering the most, or is it more of the larger landlords, or is there like I mean, is it like I I I just don't really understand how that mechanism works.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

I I feel somewhat bad for the person who owns the house.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

That's it, and they rent that out.

SPEAKER_03 32:56

That could have been his retirement or her retirement.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

Either way, whatever it is, but like it's like you know, they they have to rent out this house now for$2,500 or$3,000, and everyone's like, that's you're you know, you're you're a terrible human being for doing that. But it's like, but my mortgage is$2,500, kind of thing, right?

SPEAKER_05 33:11

There's a couple things I'll say about that. So one, I mean, yeah, affordability is hitting everybody, right? It's hitting landlords, it's hitting students, it's hitting seniors, it's hitting business, like everybody feels it. This is what I like, I feel it when I look at the butter. But lucky me, right? Like it should be so bad for everyone. But but but I think there's a couple things there. So one is I believe that actually if we had a functional system of rent control and residential tenancy enforcement, another promise that the government made that they then went back on, that it would be.

SPEAKER_03 33:45

Sorry, so what happened that the government went back on?

SPEAKER_05 33:47

Well, we said you should have tenancy enforcement. Like because they're because we have such an unequitable relationship right now, people have have a hard time finding place to live, we get a lot of stories about bad living situations. Yeah, but there's no proactive enforcement, right? So if we could reform the whole system, then I think it would be better for everyone. So again, if landlords had costs, they could recover them. Like I do think it would be more fair and better for everybody. But the other thing is if people want to invest in housing, right? So these are real estate investors, whether you're you have one apartment or you have 500 apartments, like not every investment yields a positive return every year.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

Right. No, that's no that's true.

Legislature, Accountability, And Process

SPEAKER_05 34:33

And so I think there is this expectation that like like it's like you have to you have to make that decision. Like if you're in the fortunate position to become a housing provider, then you have to like look at it and buckle down and like be in for the long ride. I mean, there are a lot of people who say housing shouldn't be an investment, but you know, I think if there are a lot of people who like that's how they're getting ready for their retirement, right? We know that. Like they're gonna or their kids leave and they're like, okay, I'll make a basement suite and I'll rent that out or whatever it is. Like that's we do what we gotta do around here, right? Yeah, but but we got we want to make it fair. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Right.

SPEAKER_05 35:07

And and so, you know, I I'm not a person who's gonna go and say, like, all landlords are evil, like no, no, no, no, you know, it's like we wouldn't say we we all have friends who who do who have apartments or people we know who own a building or something like that, and and they're trying really hard, but we need a system that's fair for everyone. Yeah, and at the end of the day, in my role, like my primary concern is that folks can afford to live here.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

So, what can we do to make things more affordable as opposed to just prevent things from getting worse? Because I think those are two very different things.

SPEAKER_05 35:39

So, one of the things we can do is that we can create affordable housing.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 35:45

So we can and and we see examples of that all over the city. So Adsim has built, the Sunflower, the Affordable Housing Association of Nova Scotia. Adsim's awesome. Yeah, they're amazing. Has True North Crescent and Dartmouth, where there's a bunch of beautiful apartments, and there's really cool building techniques. So, like in Trenton, the old railworks now, they have a like panelized construction factory where they can put housing together cheaply, more cheaply because they build them inside and transport the panels to site. Like there's all kinds of innovations like that. We can invest in those innovations as a gov that you know, the government can invest more in those innovations. So I think we can st again, I think if this government is serious about housing supply, like they this is this is the premier's line, right? That the answer is supply. But what kind of supply? Because if you look around where we are today in downtown Halifax, there's a bunch of supply, and no one I know can afford it.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 36:35

And I go to communities across this province and I hear the same thing, which is oh yeah, they're building a apartment building down the road. I mean, I don't know who's gonna afford to live there, but it's good that they're building it.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:47

And trickle down, right? Like maybe in 15 years, yeah, someone can afford it. But I want people to be able to afford to have a house like in this lifetime.

SPEAKER_02 36:57

Is there something that we can do to like encourage private, like private developers to want to build like cheaper housing or like like truly affordable housing?

SPEAKER_05 37:11

Yeah, and I think there are some examples of that. So there are programs that will kind of backstop those kind of developments in exchange for some metric of affordability. It's not usually that rank geared to income, but it'll be like 80% of market or you know, something a reduced cost. Those have some success. I know that there are some giant developers. Like if you look at Clayton Developments, who's building a lot of the residential housing around. You know, in in my district, in Mount Hope and Dartmouth, like they are building, they've partnered with the YWCA, first of all. So they have some deeply affordable units there that really cool partnership with them and the YWCA. And a lot of that that housing there, they're trying to build at a price point that like a working family could think about getting into those homes. But they can only do that because of their scale, right?

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:59

Like they like like I don't think they're making money on those units. I think they're doing it because they can afford to live in it. So, but but I really think the future of incentivizing that kind of construction is with non-market builders. So because because if you talk like when I talk to developers, most of them will say, like, our job, like it doesn't make sense for us to build affordable housing. Like we can't afford to build it, we don't make any money on it.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

That's what I would think too.

SPEAKER_05 38:26

It's not that they don't want to in a bad way, but they're just like it doesn't fit with our market.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

They don't see the business sense by that. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 38:31

There's it it's there's not a business case for it. It's a market failure.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

Yeah, is uh that's why and that's kind of what I was just thinking, because I don't I don't know anything else. I'm talking out of my ass right now. But they like is there is there a way that we could almost basically like say, like, hey, you're gonna get like tax breaks if you just build houses for us.

SPEAKER_05 38:47

Yeah, but again, there are folks out there who are doing that. So like Rooted, which is a nonprofit housing builder, they're doing amazing stuff. Like they're building stuff all over the city. Some of it's mixed use, yeah, some of it is like a mix of like full rent, some of it's very reduced, and I think that's a really cool model when it's not just like a super low income building, but you can have all different kinds of people.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

I think that's awesome because you're not ghettoizing people, right? Right.

SPEAKER_05 39:12

And in the last few years, that sector, like we didn't have very many people doing that in Nova Scotia because housing was cheap.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Yes.

Defining Affordable Housing Today

SPEAKER_05 39:18

And then suddenly it got expensive, and and a lot of people who were a little bit in that world were like, oh, we better get really serious about this. But now there are people so rooted in the Y and ADSOM and the Affordable Housing Association who can actually build that kind of stuff at scale. Yeah. And so I think if we're serious about creating housing that people can afford, those are the folks that we should.

SPEAKER_03 39:39

It sounds like they're adopting strategies from around the world that work. They are, right?

SPEAKER_05 39:43

Absolutely, absolutely. There's really great examples, and I think we can do a lot of that here, but we have to get serious about doing it, and we have to stop saying that the solution is supply. Okay, because it depends on what kind of supply. If you're building a giant glass tower on the Halifax Harbor, like that's great, it's beautiful. I really like seeing residential building happen where the in spaces that are serviced, that are on transit, like all that is important.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:10

But I also know that only six percent of Nova Scotians are gonna be able to afford to buy it.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

So when you see those giant buildings that are going up and it's like$3,000 rent, do you you do you like so do you reject the idea that if it sits empty, that eventually rents would have to come down because they're just sitting out there.

SPEAKER_05 40:27

Well, I think they they do, and I think they are.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Yeah?

SPEAKER_05 40:30

Okay, but I think if you look at a$4,000 apartment suddenly renting for$3,600 with one free month, yeah. It's like that's not addressing the problem that I'm pointing to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I so I I understand supply and demand. Yeah. I believe it. Yeah, but I'm just saying as we build supply, I don't think we can be like just like agnostic about supply. Okay. I think we need to be incentivizing supply in all parts of the market.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:57

And you know, it might be that those towers, like, look at the office towers in Nova Scotia. Like a lot of the Class A office buildings that were built in the 80s are real cheap now. But it took 45 years.

SPEAKER_02 41:07

Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_05 41:08

We don't I don't think we have that long to wait.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

So speaking of that, do you see a difference in commercial rentals versus like residential rentals because of like the people were because COVID kind of did the opposite to each of those. Like it drove housing costs up because people were staying home and people were coming here and buying cheaper homes and things like that. But then people stopped going to the office, so then all of a sudden people were kind of like, well, I don't need an office anymore.

SPEAKER_05 41:32

I think that trend is reversing. I actually think commercial rents are pretty strong in Halifax right now. We're a bit of an outlier that way, but I think you know, all the orders of government are now ordering people. I mean, we can talk about that, but are ordering people back to work. And I think a lot of offices are moving away from that kind of fully remote model. I think it's also why we're losing some folks in Nova Scotia.

SPEAKER_03 42:11

Yeah, well, actually, so I want to move us along a little bit. Yeah, if you that's a perfect segue, workers and economy. Yeah, right. So this has been something you've been leading with recently, too. Like do you feel or do you have any idea where the next middle class job engine would be here in Nova Scotia? Like what I mean, do you have any kind of thoughts of uh from your end on what that could be?

SPEAKER_05 42:35

I mean, I you know, during COVID, there was a lot of conversation about the caring economy. And there's like one economist who would talk a lot about how really our good middle class jobs now are that caring economy. It's pr it's a pretty female-dominated workforce. So it's nursing, it's child care.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Yeah, his spouse is a nurse. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:01

Well, but but you know, like those are the good jobs. Those are like you go to work, you work hard, sometimes it's great, sometimes it's hard, sometimes it's shift work. Yeah, but you you get a paycheck that that can mostly cover cover your essentials, right? I think that's where we see it. I mean, Nova Scotia loves the next big thing. We have a premier who's you know throwing spaghetti at the wall in every direction around resource extraction.

SPEAKER_03 43:24

Which is good and bad. At parts I won't get into that, but I mean I we'll get into that in a minute. I wanna I I I appreciate the fact that he is trying and and and and I I love spaghetti at wall. But I'm all we're both diagnosed ADHD, so of course we do. We throw spaghetti walls. That's pretty much all we do, is throw spaghetti at walls.

SPEAKER_05 43:45

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 43:47

But but no, no, I I know what you're saying. Sorry to interrupt, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:50

Oh, just I was just gonna say, I think, you know, if we look at what's in front of us in Nova Scotia again, I think our greatest resources are people.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 43:57

I think we have people who, you know, who like to work hard, who value honest work, and I think where those jobs are, and those jobs exist right now, right? Are in healthcare, on the front lines of healthcare, teaching, right? We need teachers. It's like those professions that kind of help us, for lack of a better word. And so I I think right now that's where it is. That's where those jobs are. I think we need to continue to convince our young folks that that those are jobs worthy of having.

SPEAKER_03 44:25

I want to yeah, add to that. And I support everything you're saying, and throw back to your your your partner at the beginning of this episode, the arts community.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:33

I mean, man, like I I it's something to me that has been undervalued for far too long. Credit, small credit to Mr. Tim Houston. He did kind of recognize it and he did help with the film industry. Totally. It changed the perspective on a lot of people's politics when he did that. Yeah, right? Yep, no, I think. And I mean, yeah, there's ups and downs, but uh, but uh yeah, like you know, if you Really supercharge your your your the value of arts in your community, the value of everything from theater to acting to painting to everything. All of a sudden you create an entirely new environment that brings more tourism, that brings better paying jobs and more value into that type of work.

SPEAKER_05 45:15

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 45:16

And I think it just shouldn't be ignored. I think it's something that it's something that Halifax wants because you always see these bubbles and these like things that come up and they seem to just get almost just there where we become so dumb and then they fizzle.

SPEAKER_05 45:29

And we have amazing artistic traditions, right? We have amazing musicians, we have amazing crafts. We're talking about the Acadian community. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:38

It's a it's one of our best resources.

SPEAKER_02 45:41

I think it's something that talking about keeping people, having a viable entertainment like industry keeps people.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

Because people are like, well, I can just go to Toronto and I can see everything, right? I can experience everything. I can go to a Leafs game, let them let me down, or I can uh you know go to like some crazy concert, Taylor Swift five nights in a row, or things like that, right? And we could do that. And I was actually talking to someone this week who is he was from here, went away, came back, and he's like, Nova Scotia, Halifax particularly, has the opportunity to be the Nashville of Canada.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

And we don't I love that concept. Totally. He's like, we don't push it enough.

SPEAKER_05 46:18

Yeah, and we and and we have to incentivize that, and we have to remember the role that that plays, right? So the story that you're telling is such, and and I think that's what the liberals missed when they cut the film tax credit, was like having young, creative people in your city, and this has been proven by study after study, makes a difference in your economy, makes a difference in whether people want to live there, and and gives people opportunities.

SPEAKER_03 46:41

It gives people an outlet, makes a more peaceful, harmonious place to live, right? It's less drab and depressing.

SPEAKER_05 46:47

I I'm living in Joel Plaskett's world on the Dharma side, right? Well, I mean And you see what what artists like Joel have done for the province have done for my community for sure.

SPEAKER_03 46:58

If you can get him on this show, I I'm not sure if I had a line out to him recently, but we've certainly emailed him before. He hasn't showed up yet, but we'd love to have him on.

SPEAKER_05 47:05

Yeah, but the other thing I'll say on the economy is, you know, I also think we can't ignore the sectors that really make a difference in Nova Scotia right now, which are, you know, and our universities play a huge role in that. Right. So innovation and technology and ocean technology, we have huge investments in security and defense coming down the line. And how do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_03 47:27

Security and defense investments, good, bad?

SPEAKER_05 47:29

I think it's really important for our economy. I think the reality is that we are, you know, we have a strong military presence in our province. We have a lot of amazing innovation that happens adjacent to that. So we've got we're the headquarters of NATO Diana, which a lot of people don't know here in downtown Halifax. And there's a bunch of civilian tech that comes out of all of that that we are poised to actually take advantage of and to monetize and to work with in ways that provide economic boosts, but also jobs. Right? Like I'm on the same page with you. We're on the list for a sub-servicing station. Awesome. We know how important that is for us right now. So all I think there's lots of opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 48:09

And we and we've had people on this show who've talked about some of the tech that they're building, and they're right here in Halifax. It's amazing, it's it's mind-blowing sometimes, right? Yeah, we have Volta, which is a great incubator. And then I had an American.

Rent Cap Vs Rent Control Explained

SPEAKER_03 48:20

William Burt introduced it to a guy in Halifax that we never knew would have existed. And uh we sat down with him and he was building these like miraculous AI models, yeah. Already had a few ventures successful under his belt. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

Yeah, we have it's it took a guy from Colorado to like let us know that this guy existed here.

SPEAKER_05 48:40

Yeah, right? Kind of thing, right? A lot of that stuff happens, and so it's about as I say, I think we um I get frustrated because I hear the government talking about a lot of like in the future we could do this or the next big thing, right? We really have a little bit of next big thing it is, I think, in our province. Okay, and and and there's lots of examples through history of that. And it's great, we need to be chasing economic opportunity, absolutely, but we can't forget what we have. Uh and I think we have to spend a little bit more time nurturing and supporting that too.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

Yeah, I I I think so. I think the the biggest question, I I'm sure you get this, I'm confident you get this, is the most probably the most common question people ask NDP. How do we pay for it all? How do we pay for all the things that we want? Like because I mean nursing, that's great, but that's obviously comes from the public. My wife's a teacher. Yeah, obviously, very hard job. Yeah, also comes from public and things like that. So, how do we make sure that we invest in both of those things, education and healthcare, and pay for it?

SPEAKER_05 49:42

Yeah, I need a more specific question. I mean, I I feel like you know, it's so interesting. So, so the first election I ran in, we projected a deficit in our election platform. And so that was the question. The NDP wants to spend, how are they gonna pay for it all? The first election after Tim Houston was elected, he stood on the floor of the legislature and said, I'm gonna spend$13.6 billion this year. I'm gonna spend more than any government's ever spent. I'm gonna spend as long as I have to to deliver every single thing everyone wants. And everyone applauded. And no one asked, How are you gonna pay for it?

SPEAKER_02 50:15

That's fair.

SPEAKER_05 50:16

And so, you know, I think it's about making choices. Yeah, and I think it's about having the things that people need and want and the things that are gonna make people productive and stay here and work hard. Yeah, you know, it's about investment, right? And so, you know, one of my frustrations is we leave a lot of federal dollars on the table.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Okay, right?

SPEAKER_05 50:34

We signed a federal child care deal for$10 a day. Five other provinces who signed that deal have$10 a day childcare.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

It's not$10 yet, it's$20 right now.

SPEAKER_05 50:42

Not here, but it is in other places.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

Oh, it's$20 here. Yeah. Yeah, but it's not$10 yet. Yeah, it's a good one. Well, and it's not gonna be$10. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:49

Brenda McGuire said it's not gonna be$10.

SPEAKER_02 50:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:51

Well, why not? Why didn't we leverage that federal investment properly? One dollar invested in childcare uh yields seven dollars in economic benefit at the provincial level. Women can go back to work. Yep, you know, children have a better start in life. There's all kinds of so we need to be looking longer term. You know, we we a number of other provinces signed the birth control deal that the NDP brought federally. We didn't. We left that money on the table. We didn't take it. If there are the same stats about investments in reproductive health for women and the economic dividends that pays.

SPEAKER_03 51:26

Right.

SPEAKER_05 51:27

Right? I mean, there's all I love this stuff, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 51:29

So so but but to the question of smart choices, right?

SPEAKER_05 51:33

Yeah, dental care, things like that. So we need to make sure that we're, you know, right now, we haven't talked about traffic, but like everybody else is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:41

Most of the time when I come to a meeting downtown Hellfire, I just want to go home halfway. I don't even want to go to the meeting. I mean, I get so mad trying to find a place to go.

SPEAKER_05 51:46

I pushed I pushed the premier in the election debate to talk about transit, and he wouldn't. He wouldn't talk about buses. Well, guess what? We have an old city and it has a certain number of roads, and they fit a certain number of roads. Five arteries.

SPEAKER_02 52:03

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_05 52:04

And so at some point, we're gonna have to get serious about having public transit, and it's expensive, but guess what? There's federal money on the table for that. So part of it is getting really smart about how we leverage funds from other orders of government, and part of it is really smart about actually making the investments we need so that we have them when we need them. If the McNeil government had built the hospital when they said that they would, we would have saved tens of billions of dollars, it looks like now. Yeah, but we keep passing the buck. And so now we're gonna continue to have this VG with legionnaires in the pipes and kind of like the forum situation right now. Exactly like the forum situation, exactly like the ferry situation. We keep rethinking it every few years and the price tag keeps going up. But if we bite the bullet and we invest in things when we can and we have the fiscal capacity, that pays dividends down the road.

SPEAKER_02 52:55

So good answer. Thanks. I don't know that was the answer. But but hold on to think about these things. I do I do have actually you asked for a more specific question because there's a B to this, but I I don't disagree with anything that you said. So I think it was a good answer. But if say there's an election and all of a sudden Claudia is now premier.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

What what do you what ideas do you have that we could do to try to start getting international money outside of like federal like government money back into our province so that we can start taking private money and invest in our people and invest in Nova Scotia?

SPEAKER_05 53:29

Well, I think we have to make better choices. So one of the things that the Tim Houston government did was they dissolved all the crown corporations. Right? So this is the this is a government that doesn't really seem to like to listen to good advice.

SPEAKER_03 53:44

What does that mean in layman's transit person?

SPEAKER_05 53:46

So the example I'm gonna give is we had a crown corporation called Invest Nova Scotia. Okay. And it had a board of directors that reported to a CEO that was arm's length from government, so not held hostage to government's particular priorities of the moment, that made decisions about where we invest public dollars to leverage private dollars, right?

SPEAKER_02 54:04

Kind of like the for people listening, like the ECOA or the Halifax partnerships. Like we were yesterday when we were.

SPEAKER_05 54:09

Exactly, exactly. But we don't have that anymore. The minister's in charge of it. We don't have any independent arm's length organizations. And so I think it's like we as what government can do, so if I'm the premier, I'm looking at how do we leverage public resources in the most effective way to attract that private capital. And and in lots of cases, that means getting people who are really smart to do that. Now, I don't believe in privatizing our core services. I don't believe in privatizing healthcare. Um so you know, there's some things that are off limits, but but but as I said, I think one of our greatest economic opportunities is in technology, in ocean tech, yeah, in life sciences. Like we have amazing people doing amazing things there. They need to attract capital. Let's get out, like, I don't think holding our biggest research university hostage and you know, and not supporting them fully is a good path to that, which I think is what this government is doing.

SPEAKER_03 55:07

And how are they doing that? And I was only asking because I don't know.

Landlords, Tenancy, And Fairness

SPEAKER_05 55:10

Well, you know, this government brought in a really controversial bill in the last session that really gave them a huge amount of control over academic institutions in the province. You know, on some level, it's good to have some control. We have a lot of public dollars in those institutions, but those have they have to be independent, right? For a university to be well respected, to do world-class work that can't run off the side of a premier's desk or a minister, like that that's a different project. They have a big deficit. We haven't seen a lot of kind of funding and assistance forthcoming for that. Again, it's investment, but we have researchers like you know, folks making world-class batteries that are coming out of Dow, right? We have world-class research leveraging private dollars. We want to make sure we keep that flow going. We have the Vershuren Center at CBU is really similar. We have Neptune here in Dartmouth. So we have a lot of tech, and I think we need to find ways that we can leverage public dollars to bring in that private investment that's gonna bring those amazing things to market. And and then we have the opportunity to say, those came from Nova Scotia.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

Right.

SPEAKER_05 56:15

Why don't you come down too?

SPEAKER_02 56:16

How do you feel about the deal just signed with Massachusetts?

SPEAKER_05 56:19

It's not a deal.

SPEAKER_02 56:20

Well, yeah, I guess it's not a deal yet, but it's a yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:23

I mean, I I really do believe that this government loves a phone a lot.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

Make sure everyone listen knows what the deal is. Oh, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_05 56:30

So tell us what the deal is.

SPEAKER_02 56:32

Well, tell us what the deal is. They sign it's it's so funny because like I I I don't I don't hate like I don't hate the idea. I love the idea of us like investing in renewable energy. Yeah. And then if we can if, I'll emphasize if we can come through with everything. Because I mean I do think we should use our wind, we should use our our tidal wind energy deal. Wind energy deal. If we can get like kind of really re get those renewable energy to the level they say they can.

SPEAKER_05 56:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:59

We they're saying like we can supply as like something like 25% of Canada with power. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:04

So wind west, yeah. It's a great idea. I love the window. We all want I love the idea. Everyone loves the idea. Yeah, it's just an idea.

SPEAKER_01 57:12

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 57:12

So we don't actually have any of the capacity, like we don't even have the capacity to like take those windmills into our ports, right? It's a long road.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:22

We have no propo private sector proponents. We have it, it it's a brochure and a video.

SPEAKER_01 57:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:29

Great brochure, great video. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:31

It'll take decades.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 57:33

That's fine. I like long-term investments.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 57:36

So then the premier goes to Massachusetts and and they announce that someday, if Wend Wet Wind West gets built, we'll cooperate with Massachusetts on helping with their energy needs.

SPEAKER_03 57:46

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:47

To me, that feels like And America hasn't been shaky at all lately.

SPEAKER_03 57:50

I mean trust in this.

SPEAKER_05 57:51

Well, and next week, and next week Tim's gonna be in New York making some other similar announcement. And at some point, I think Nova Scotians are gonna have to ask, like, what about what's going on here in Nova Scotia today?

SPEAKER_01 58:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:04

So yes, we need to work on long-term opportunity, but you know, he's the minister of energy. So why don't you spend less time talking about what might happen in 20 years and photo ops? We had a similar photo op with uh Stephen Lecce from Ontario not long ago about nuclear energy. Again, doesn't exist, not a thing, not real, but there's a great photo and there's a great story. Yeah like let's spend less time on that and more time figuring out our own domestic energy mix. Like he's the energy minister. What's going on with Nova Show?

SPEAKER_03 58:31

So domestic energy, would you mean like solar panels? Like what would you like to do?

SPEAKER_05 58:34

I'm like figuring out a way for people to afford their bills and keep their lights on, figuring out a way to have a utility that is responsible to Nova Scotians, legislating that utility properly. Like it's a mess. We all know that, right? Uh that that is something I think government needs to be paying attention to.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

This is kind of like the, I don't know, the capitalistic leftist in me, uh, if that's a thing.

SPEAKER_05 58:54

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 58:55

I would love to see us get to the point where we could produce that amount of energy and sell it to the rest of Canada and give free energy to Nova Scotians.

SPEAKER_05 59:03

Yeah, but do you know what that would be awesome? In this all of this conversation about Wind West, like we don't even have a transmission system that could take any of that. Like that's not even anticipated as part of the project.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 59:14

That should make people scratch their heads, right? At the end of the day, we want a government that's working for us and that's making choices that benefit Nova Scotians first. And so, yeah, I love that. That would be amazing.

SPEAKER_03 59:30

You don't believe. Is that true?

SPEAKER_05 59:31

Listen, I think, listen, renewable energy is the future. Yes, wind in particular is the cheapest form. Yeah, it just is. I mean, it's you know, we have a fossil fuels are sexy again, but like it's not gonna last. It's I believe it's a passing fad. But you know, we need that for base load and things like that. But the reality is, is it's like wind is the cheapest, it's gonna be that's the future. The more the Americans kind of and the Albertans for that matter don't want to get on that train, the better it is for us. Let's build wind, let's use it, that's fine. But we need to pay attention to like what everyday people's lives are like, and we need to see a government making choices that puts that front of mind. And when we see Tim traveling around the country making all these announcements that aren't gonna have an impact on those people's lives, I think people are asking some questions about that.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:19

This has been a fascinating conversation so far. I just want to, out of respect for your time, uh how much time did you have to be somewhere at a particular time? I just didn't want to.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:26

I think we said an hour.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:27

We did say an hour, but we're gonna have to do that. Yeah. Okay. So I'm gonna I got uh the 52-minute mark on this thing, Matt. Okay. Uh and then probably we have to jump into our 10 fun questions just uh just to close out the uh show. Agreed. This is just a like really quick about leadership and personal philosophy. And sorry, we've had so much more we wanted to discuss, but you're welcome to come back for a round two anytime. Yeah, right? We can do part two. Uh we I had lots of stuff for you. But you know, actually, you've kind of answered a lot of these. I would say you've answered the what decision has kept you up at night kind of question with some of some of the things you've already said. And I I believe the other question we had about staying human in partisan politics, I think you've you've done already a really good example of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:10

And I I I have a question though that kind of talks about like personal philosophy slash leadership and everything. Is I think people, as much as it is your it is literally your job to hold the government accountable and and kind of you know scrutinize and criticize the decisions and everything. But I'm gonna ask you a question that sometimes it can be hard for people to act to answer. What do you think that the current government has done that you're like, yeah, I like this. This is something that they nailed. I love that question.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:36

Uh well I think you guys gave a great example of it, the film industry. Okay. I think I think that you know that Tim uh and his colleagues saw early on that the Houston government was making a big mistake. I'm not sh I'm not sure if that was a political calculation or a calculation based on anything else. But but I do think, you know, there were a lot of promises made in that campaign. They were gonna bring back school boards. We didn't see that happen. You know, there were a lot of conversations around accountability that never they were gonna give order-making powers to the information and privacy commissioners so they could hold them to account. We've definitely seen the opposite of that. But they promised that they would bring the back the film industry, and they did it. Uh, and I think that was the right thing to do.

Building Truly Affordable Supply

SPEAKER_02 1:02:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so too. Yeah. Film industry, like, we're seeing so much now, right? And I think it does boost tourism. Because, like, you know, look at Windsor. Windsor's like seems to be on fire now.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:33

Well, because no one also because no one can afford to live in Halifax.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:35

Fair enough.

unknown 1:02:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:36

I guess that's kind of I mean it's a beautiful place. Like we have a place down here, Digby, like my that's where my husband's family's from. And for years we would drive through Windsor, like in the you know, 20 years ago, and say, like, why don't more people live here? It's so beautiful. It's a gateway to the valley. Yep. But I think we're finally pushing out, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:54

Friends that just moved out that way. I love Windsor. It's awesome. It's so beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:57

So great coffee shops. It's time for fun questions. Bedarf bakery. Yes. Oh my god. Every time I'm on the road, we like m like the folks with me know. They're like, let's see if Bedar's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

And and and just down the street, the uh Garish Bay.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:10

Garage Bray. Yeah, it's a great town.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:12

Best anyone listening, yeah, best chocolate chip cookie in the world.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:16

Yeah. Whoa.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:17

It's worth more chocolate than it is cooking.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:20

Yeah, listen, both of those places are really worth the trip.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:23

That's quite the endorsement.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:24

Yeah, no, it's pretty, we have to stop.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:26

My wife is like, yes, speaking of endorsements, we never even said thank you to the old triangle. Yes, that's true. So thank you, old triangle, for let us back. We've talked to political leaders of all parties, I think, at this location. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:37

This is the historic watering spot for politicians.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:40

It is very bad. It's just down the street from the ledge. Makes sense. Yeah, yeah. Easy, easy, easier government to slide into. Yeah. So let's move into 10 questions. Ten questions, but I got one real fun question that I didn't include here. I thought about it today. I thought it was funny, so I'm going to ask you. All right. NDP. Is it orange or yellow, the color?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:57

Orange.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:59

It's orange. Could just be my eyes. I'm like, man, I don't know if that's orange orange.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

Don't you remember when like when uh Jack Leighton was called the orange crush?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:08

The orange, yeah. The orange crush?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:10

Okay, Jack Leighton.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:10

I remember Jack Layton very. That guy was awesome. Yeah, he was pretty awesome indeed. I agree. All right, 10-point questions. I'll kick them off. All right. Okay, so these questions are a little dumber, okay?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

So I'll get dumb.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:22

Answer them. Name a favorite Nova Scotia hidden gem food spot.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:28

Bedard bakery.

unknown 1:04:30

Windsor.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:30

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:31

That was easy. Gave that one to you.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:33

Okay, great.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:34

French bakery. Yeah. Question number two. So if not politics and law, what's another version of Claudia doing in an alternate dimension?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:45

Mom and quilt maker.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:48

Quiltmaker. Quiltmaker, okay. Sounds like a movie title. That'd be kind of a cool time. All right. What's one policy or idea from another country or city that you'd love to import instantly home?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:02

Housing first. Housing first. Make sure that everywhere everyone has a place to live first and work out the rest after.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:09

That makes a lot of sense to me. Question number four. So do you prefer salty or sweet?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:15

Oh, I like salty sweet things.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:17

Salty sweet things, okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:18

Chocolate chip cookies, a little salt on top. Really good.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:22

There you go. Okay, so a book or a podcast besides afternoon pint. What's something like a book or a show, whatever you want to say that you recommend everyone listens to or checks out?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:38

A book that everyone checks out.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:42

If not a book, it could be a show or whatever you want. Just your personal recommendation.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:47

Listen, you know what? I have a 13-year-old son and recently watched Ted Lasso with him because we decided he was old enough.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:53

So good.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:54

And there's something about that show that is it's about sports, it's about community, it's about humanity, and I just think it makes you happy.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:02

His energy is amazing, and I showed him it's an infection show.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:05

And it doesn't move away from tough subjects, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:07

Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, great answer.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

Question number six, is it? Yes. You're killing these. Thanks. So imagine that you're a superhero. Okay. And a villain has put in a you know a dilemma here.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:20

Sorry about this question.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:22

You can only save an adult man or labradoodles. Which one are you choosing? So one of them dies.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:31

Adult man or labradoodles. I mean, do I get to pick the adult man? Like I think I'd pick my husband. That's fair. If I have a choice.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:37

No, you're only gonna save one. This is just a random adult man or a random labradoodle. You got a choice.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:42

One man or one labradoodle.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:45

Yeah.

unknown 1:06:45

Pass.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:46

Pass. That's fine. Take a drink. You know, you can take a drink for that. Because uh we we did ask Tim Houston something and he refused. He just took a drink and he just passed.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:56

So that's fine.

unknown 1:06:56

Great.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:58

Question number seven.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:59

I have a cockapoo, so. Oh, yeah, we got a labradoodle stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:02

I I choose the man. What's one thing everyone can do with their with very little effort that would help make the world a better place? Did I say that right?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:13

Yeah. Reach out to someone and have a conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:17

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:18

I like that. Great answer. Yeah. So what is if you had the power to do this, this is your lawyer. What yeah. What is one law you would just delete?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:30

Wow, one law that I would delete. Well, there's a restrictive covenant law that you know makes it illegal. Grocery stores use this a lot, Sobies uses it. So they sell a building and they say you can buy our building, but it can't sell food for 20 years.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:47

Oh, yeah, because of the kilometer thing between the grocery stores. I heard about that. That's right. That's a bad law.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:51

Charlie Waugh told us that. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:55

There you go. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:58

Everybody deserves food in their communities.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:00

You might have already answered this earlier on, but number nine, Matt. Oh, yeah. That's you. Oh, is it me? Okay. Favorite Atlanta Canadian musician.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:08

I mean, shout out to Joel. All right.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:12

Yeah. Okay. I will say just quick, just a quick shout back to the law question. Yeah. Because he uh Mike and I were pretty vocal about this last year. One law we do think that should be added, or at least maybe get rid of is the NDA situation.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:27

So I was just going to say we've done a lot of work on that. And the non-disclosure agreements, and I know you guys talk to Liz, and we've been very involved with Can't Buy My Silence. So non-disclosure agreements in the case of you know sexual impropriety or assault, a hundred percent. And we have introduced legislation. Well that shouldn't be a political issue.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:47

That should just be we should protect each other, other humans, 100%. Right? Like you know, when when the decisions like that are that easy, why not? I mean, it makes sense to have those laws for protecting intellectual property and only that.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:01

But as we see in the world right now, yeah, heavily.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:04

We just have the grossest execution.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:06

People like to protect each other.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:07

Unfolding. That's right. Right before our eyes. You're right. Yeah. So question number 10. Yeah. So if you had to teach one class in school, what subject would it be?

SPEAKER_05 1:09:17

I would teach civics. I would teach politics. I think, you know, we people need to be engaged. People need to know that like not making a choice, not voting, is making a choice about what happens to your life and your future. And so I love and take every opportunity I can empowering young folks to see themselves in the political process and to get engaged.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:41

Awesome, awesome. Answers. Alright, so this is our last call. Nine out of ten. She did nine out of ten. Great.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:47

She did nine out of ten. Yeah, I'm sorry. So we have a we have a last call question. So you can take this away. Oh, sure, yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:54

So if Nova Scotians remember one thing about you, Claudia Chender, that you were trying to build, what is it?

SPEAKER_05 1:10:05

A better province for everyone. A place where their kids can grow up and come back.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:11

Very cool answer. Claudia, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Absolutely. Cheers to you. No, it's all right. No, that's okay. I take big gulfs. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:19

Uh, we'd love to have you back for a round two anytime. Uh this was good. I had we had so many things we didn't get to, which is crazy. But uh this was this was really valuable to us. Thank you so much. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks, guys, for listening. Take care.