Matt and Mike Get Therapy With Registered Counselling Art Therapist Gabriella Rizkallah

Gabriella is an art therapist who once refused to read out loud in ninth grade, met a teacher who really saw her, and discovered dyslexia and ADHD were the reasons school never fit. That shift—from “lazy” to “misunderstood”—set her on a path through art school and the classroom to a therapy practice that uses colour, texture, and play to help people find themselves again.

We talk frankly about late ADHD diagnoses, especially for women whose symptoms often fly under the radar. Task paralysis, perfectionism, time blindness, and hyperfocus on the wrong task all make an appearance, alongside a nuanced chat about medication. Gabriella’s take is practical: meds can help, but without self-knowledge and routines, they can backfire. We swap rituals that bring calm—mindfulness, morning exercise, and yes, a very humble steam sauna—and break down why sensory anchors work for fast-moving minds.

Parenting and screens get the spotlight too. Instead of lectures, we model what we want our kids to do: name feelings, set boundaries, and repair after conflict. We explore the double edge of phones and games—dopamine traps that raise anxiety for many kids, but also safe, rule-bound spaces for some anxious or autistic teens. The goal isn’t zero tech; it’s smarter transitions, more creative alternatives within reach, and a home that rewards curiosity over constant scrolling.

Inside the therapy room, Gabriella sees clients rewrite old stories of failure through art prompts tied to emotion and sensation. Anxiety and depression often sit atop ADHD or autism; treating the surface without understanding the base leaves people stuck. We get real about access and legitimacy—why insurance often misses art therapy, how she’s registered for coverage, and the PD she runs to help teachers build neuroaffirming classrooms. We even let AI take a bow for organizing paperwork, so more energy goes to people over forms.

By the end, you’ll hear a throughline: creativity isn’t extra for neurodivergent folks—it’s a first language. Slow down, pick a colour that fits your mood today, and watch what emerges when you give your brain a medium that finally makes sense. If this conversation resonates, follow and share the show, leave a review to help others find it, and tell us: what creative habit helps your mind settle?

Your Dream Home Does Not Have to Be Just A Dream. Today's show is brought to you by Kimia Nejat of Exit Reality Metro. Kimia is the realtor who knows how to get things done. Buying or Selling? Go to afternoonpint.ca/kimia and we will set up an introduction

Does Your Business Need a Boost With Foot traffic? Hosts for An Event? Or Even Actors For A Production? Or the Production itself? Go to https://www.afternoonpint.ca/services and see some of the services that the Afternoon Pint team offers. 

Transcript

Morning Coffee In The Art Studio

SPEAKER_01 0:15

That's my first one. Alright. Okay. One, two, three.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Cheers. Cheers. Welcome to the afternoon pipe, morning coffee edition. I'm Mike Tobin. Hi, Matt Conrad. And who do we have here today?

SPEAKER_04 0:27

I'm Gabriella. Rascella. Do you want my last name? Yeah, sure. Does everybody need to know my identity?

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Um Yes. No, that's right. We need to know if you're susceptible to any diseases.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Um, unfortunately, I gotta get you to move that mic a little bit closer. Yes. There we go.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

Can you hear me good now?

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Yeah, that sounds bad. Okay, amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

Okay, I'm getting over a cold though, so you have to forgive me for any as long as you don't get me sick, we can be friends. Oh no, we're past that. We're just trying to survive the end of it now.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

And I have been on this morning coffee edition, I'm drinking a green tea with no alcohol in it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

I have a non-alcoholic Guinness.

SPEAKER_04 1:02

I'm on the green tea cake as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

It's a sober morning. Tis. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

It's an early morning.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

We're in an art studio. And you're a therapist.

SPEAKER_04 1:11

I'm a therapist. I'm an art therapist.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

And you help people with therapy through art, so you're gonna help me and Matt today.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

I'm gonna let you guys unwind. Cool down.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

We will we want to get your story here too. But before we get your story, so how does this usually start? We got a blank piece of paper.

SPEAKER_04 1:25

You got a blank piece of paper. I like to tape mine down. You don't have to, but when I tape it down, I feel like it's more in place for myself. But I'm gonna give you a prompt because every time somebody comes in here, I give them a prompt.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:36

And I know you didn't sleep well.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:38

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

No, I didn't.

SPEAKER_04 1:40

I don't know if you have any.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Oh yeah, I was alright.

SPEAKER_04 1:42

You're you're good today.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Our cat kept us up all night. It was terrible.

SPEAKER_04 1:45

I want you to think about how you're feeling and then associate those with colors.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

And I want you to create a scene.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 1:54

So it can be an outside scene, it can be a rural scene. It can be. Well, let's see how it can come out of it. You'd be surprised how much you can get done when I give you a little prompt.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

What are these? Alright.

SPEAKER_04 2:05

Those are acrylic paint pens. You there's there's markers here, and there's also these watercolor brushes with these watercolor paints that are oh wow. Oh what these are little watercolor paints.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Oh, there's water in the brush. There's water in the water. How old is that water? Did it come with the brush?

SPEAKER_04 2:25

You know what? It's in undetermined, but it will still do the job. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Okay. Alright. I'm excited about this.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

I'm gonna have to think about what color I am.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Well, you can think about what color and what scene and all that stuff is.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

Yeah, so use colors that kind of associate with how you're feeling, but the scene can be based on I don't know, how are you feeling? If you are you are you out in a serenity area? Is it are you in this hustle-bustle area? Are you in like the apple of New York? Are you in the woods with animals? Like, where where are you right now and why are you in that place?

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 3:02

Does that make sense? I gotta paint this? You don't have to paint it.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

You gotta draw it or paint it or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 3:07

You can draw it, you can use.

The Painting Prompt And Materials

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Alright, so we'll what how we'll start then, you know, now that you can start thinking about that stuff, but why don't we get a little bit of your personal backstory?

SPEAKER_04 3:17

My personal backstory.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Yeah, talk about uh, you know, your your journey into because I know you're the reason well I'll let you explain, but I know the reason why you got into this stuff is that you are also a neurodivergent person.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

Yes. So that's a fun story, actually.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yeah, tell us, tell us.

SPEAKER_04 3:31

I've told it, I've told it a couple times, but I think it's still a very relatable one. So I was one of those kids growing up that I was told that I was lazy, I didn't like do anything. I wasn't really a defiant kid in school. Um I had 11 parents, so no way am I gonna define my my teachers. But at school, I was pretty kind of to myself, but the work was hard for me. And one day in the ninth grade, we'll always I always refer back to Mr. Hickey, the best teacher that has probably changed the directory of my life.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

Okay, he asked me to read it. Shout out to him.

SPEAKER_04 4:07

Shout out to Mr. Hickey. He knows he's been on several podcast episodes with the story, and he's continued on. But he asked me to read out loud in school, and I just absolutely refused. I said, Hard no, and he looked at me because again, I wasn't like a defiant kid at school. I kind of just kept to myself and did my own thing. And he looked at me and he's like, Why? I was like, I'm not. And then he he didn't push it, and I was like, Okay, that was weird. I didn't expect that reaction. But then he told me to stay after class. I was like, I'm in trouble. Like he's gonna yell at me. He didn't. He just said, Is something wrong? And I said, Yeah, I can't read. And he's like, What do you mean? I said, I said, I I like I stutter, I can't read, I can't get the words out.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

So you could actually read read, but it was like one of those- No, so I couldn't actually.

SPEAKER_04 4:49

I couldn't read dyslexic. How old were you when this happened? I was in the ninth grade, so what how old are you in the ninth grade?

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Yeah, like I made it through faking it for a minute.

SPEAKER_04 4:58

Oh, yeah, so that whole like slipping through the cracks thing, like I was that like a poster child. Wow. Um, and they're like, what is going on? So they gave me a they they requested an assessment, which again is not typical for for females back in the day. Like our generation, a lot of girls went undiagnosed because there's an internalized process, and like females tend to externalize it. You like you see them moving a lot, you see them like kind of not focusing and whatnot. So I got that far just adapting with my own learning style. So then when I got my assessment, it was it didn't specifically say ADHD, but it's that's what it is now that to like to like summarize it, but it's called what's called severe learning disability.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:40

So that's what they coined me as that seems meaner. Right! Like you should read the assessment. It's actually it's pretty it's it's not nice. Like, I also know like as a neurodivergent person that when you do an assessment, you're trying to figure out what that other person needs from you. Like you're like, okay, what do you what what is the answer here? Because that's how I lived my life is trying to figure out what the answer was based on what other people needed. And I had the comprehension of like a grade two and the reading on comprehension of a grade one or something along those lines, and they they just kind of looked at my mom and because she she advocated for me, but again, back in the day, people are like, no, no, she's fine, she's just lazy, no no, she's fine. Yeah, and she's like, see? And they're like stunned because like how did I make it to the ninth grade and nobody noticed this about me?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Right, yeah.

Misdiagnosed Childhood To Dyslexia Discovery

SPEAKER_04 6:25

So it was, I don't know, it was a journey, but from there, then I realized, okay, like I'm not dumb, I just people just didn't know how to teach me. Like the school, when we were in school, it was very much linguistics, like reading, writing. But now they're trying to focus it more on like hands-on learning and like catering it towards the needs of the student.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Do these brushes, are they just one color? I don't even understand. No, you touch you touch the different colors.

SPEAKER_04 6:48

So you want to wipe it off. So let me get you a paper towel. Okay, you can squeeze it out.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

This is I feel like I'm being a sus right now.

SPEAKER_04 6:55

Yeah, you are this is the problem. This is the this is when spicies get together. We're just like, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Oh, yeah, that's right. That's one of the things she said when I tried to like when I was saying, Hey, come on, everything, hey, by the way, I mean she's like, Yeah, no, I I clocked that spicy brain.

SPEAKER_04 7:08

I was like, spicy brains in a second.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:11

A lot of people in this industry are very uh creative and they like to do multiple things and they think outside of the box. There's like people will say, like, it's a superpower, but like it really like to like not to be, I don't know, generic about it. It is. Like you you just see things differently than maybe an the other person would.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:31

Anyways, but that's kind of like how I I actually was a teacher before I did this. Oh, you're a teacher, aren't you? I was a teacher. My background, I have a bachelor of well, I went to art school, but I have a bachelor of education, and I have a master's of education, but my master's focused in the art therapy. But the idea was to do to go be a teacher to do to do what Mr. Hickey did, essentially. To be that that teacher, to save the children. But then I got into the schools, I was like, I don't like this as much.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

So do you have a lot of grown-ass people doing this, like painting and talking about it? All the time. Yeah, so I have a kids, eh?

SPEAKER_04 8:03

No, I work with a lot of kids because I do have the teaching background, so it's it's it's uh it's a good population to work with because of that knowledge base. Okay. Um, but I also have a lot of late-diagnosed females. Because again, back back when we were kids, uh, ADHD for females weren't wasn't as recognized or known because again, that internalized process. You don't see you can if you can't see it, nothing's wrong, right? Right, right. And that was like the big part of it. And then as you get into your adulthood, or if you have children, because a lot of my late diagnosed either have children or the kind of they're in the stage of their life of like what's going on, like why have I never realized this about myself? Right. It it gets amplified with more tasks in your life.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

I don't know. I mean, I'm I'm sure I think you know this. I was also diagnosed with ADHD.

SPEAKER_04 8:49

When were you diagnosed?

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Last year.

SPEAKER_04 8:50

Okay, so you were late diagnosed as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Oh yeah, like six months before I was. Because I was just last year as well.

SPEAKER_04 8:56

So what prompted you to get diagnosed?

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Honestly, the comedian James Mullins.

SPEAKER_04 9:00

Oh, shout out!

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Shout out, we had an episode on this show, and I always thought I had it, but when he talked about the real stuff behind it, I was like, holy crap.

SPEAKER_04 9:09

So what so when you say the real stuff behind it, what is the thing that like the struggles that I just thought everybody had. Oh, like the normal this is normal.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Yeah, like getting somewhere, doing something, test paralysis, time management. Maybe this is a therapy thing. Like, I love drawing and I love art, but right now, this is the part where I don't like what I haven't started and I want to rip it up and start over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:33

I would challenge you to continue through that feeling because those are those things that we kind of, in a metaphor sense, like that's the thing we struggle with day-to-day as like neurodivergent people, is like we second guess everything we do.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

So if I was a kid, I'd have like a stack of papers with like a thousand different drawings with like an eyeball and a nose on it, trying to make a person, but I'd never finish the face. Because I would not be happy because there'd have to be some sort of perverse absolute perfection before I could move on.

SPEAKER_04 9:56

Yeah, because well, you because you probably perceive things as it's supposed to be, and you're like, this is incorrect, and it's never gonna be correct.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Yeah. He's like that with his show, too.

SPEAKER_04 10:05

Wait, you and you're so when you're a kid, did you like did like anybody ever Something's going on here?

SPEAKER_01 10:13

No, no, I mean, I you know, I mean, you know, we talked about Lebanese parents. I would I would say I had Newfoundland parents.

SPEAKER_04 10:19

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

And respectfully, you know what? They're the same. That's what I said blood like pushing kids.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

I've had this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Not in my fucking house and those types of things. Like my parents were you didn't mess around, right? No, you didn't.

SPEAKER_04 10:34

And it's not like we can we're faulting them in any way because like they they knew what they knew.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Oh, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_04 10:38

But like I've had this conversation with several of my friends, and I say, like, Newfoundland people and Lebanese people, they're like one and the same in so many aspects.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

A lot of it ties back to the religious religion in the households, close family, right?

SPEAKER_04 10:50

Those big families, the door open kind of concept.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Yeah, and I mean Matt's family, not much different. I mean, they're a Herring Cole family, they're Irish Catholics, right?

SPEAKER_04 11:00

Herring coal families as well. I've had like that's why I'm in the co. I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

We were Irish Catholic too, much family. So it uh yeah, I think that's kind of uh kind of part of it.

SPEAKER_04 11:09

Yeah, yeah, it's just like it wasn't there wasn't. You just fought through it, right? Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

I mean, I remember like I don't want to put my parents down in any ways. I remember like I was struggling in school and the teachers used to be like, PR. Like, you know what I mean? He's not gonna pay attention or do whatever the fuck he wants to do.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

Yeah, but that's what they did.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

They just kind of just like not even like I not even get mad, like you know, or not even like I would just smile and say I do whatever you like and just continue to do it. I'd be like, oh yeah, yeah, I'll do that.

From Art School To Teaching To Therapy

SPEAKER_03 11:38

Yeah, and I just that's I'm still like that too. I was gonna say something different. I know, but I did, but that's how you adapted, and that's that's sitting in the driveway wondering does Mike want to come this morning?

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Because if he doesn't, he might not be here. It is a Sunday and he doesn't he he likes his routine.

SPEAKER_04 11:55

I know, I even said last night I was like, are you sad you're gonna miss the hockey game?

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Yeah, yeah, we didn't know that was gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

But I watched I watched the first period. We're just so people know, we're recording this in the during the second period of the hockey game. So we'll we'll miss the second period only, really.

SPEAKER_04 12:11

So yeah, hopefully there's not gonna be anything too dramatic happening.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Yeah, I hope I turn it on and it's 4-1 Canada. I've already stopped my painting because I hate it.

SPEAKER_04 12:20

Don't keep going, push. I'm getting you more colors.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

We gotta make sure that we keep the conversation going here too, and I don't just quietly paint for the next hour.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

So, yeah, so what uh you want to be the same thing, so you wanted to be the the Mr. uh hickey of you know that you know and pass on that stuff. So, what made you realize this is what you wanted to do? Okay, not just like get into therapy, but also like, hey, I have a different route to go.

SPEAKER_04 12:42

So, because of how I am and because I've always adapted through my life, I was essentially told like I wasn't gonna do anything, and I was like, I'll show you. Yeah, I'll I'll teach you. Love that. Um, and I and moving forward, I was like, okay, so I will I will figure out what's best for me. And I always loved art in high school. Art was like my safe space. Yeah, it's oh my gosh. It's our own it's an outlet.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

I would have a report card with like z like 60s and then digital art be like 100. What are you doing in that class that you're not doing any of the other things?

SPEAKER_04 13:13

Because that's how your brain operates visually. But it's visual, yeah. It's something you can connect with, and there's an expression involved.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:20

So I I actually initially, so I have three degrees. Oh wow. I lost one of them. How ironic, right? You lost one. I lost my master's degree. I don't know where I put the frame, it's gone. I physically lost it.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Like, no, you can't earn this.

SPEAKER_04 13:36

No, you're not allowed.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Your arts denied.

SPEAKER_04 13:39

No, but like that's so like indicative of like an ADHD brain, like losing your absolute like that piece of paper that cost you how much money to get.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 13:47

So I went to NASCAD. So I went to art school and I was like, oh, this is fun. Like I can do this. Like there was a lot of hands-on things, and it was way the way I learned. I was like, okay, so this I'm not the problem, how I'm taught is the problem. So then when I'm like, okay, what am I gonna do after after I'm done NASCAD? Like, I can't just be a starving artist on the side of the road. I mean, I could, I could try, but I feel like I needed to do more because I knew art was so impactful to me that I wanted to just I didn't want to just do it for myself. So then I went to education school and I became an art teacher, and my my other teachable was social studies, but we don't have to talk about that because who wants to do history? Not me. So I ended up being an art teacher, and the absolute thing that I loved about being an art teacher was the interactions with the students.

SPEAKER_03 14:30

Right.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

And what art did with them. And I was the class that the kids that didn't want to go to class came to. Do you know what I mean? So I was like, okay, so there's this connection here. But then I didn't like as a neurodivergent brain, wouldn't, the rules, the structure. I didn't like that I had to teach them how to draw and how to shade and how there was limitations on creating. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah, yeah, no, I'm just gonna do it.

SPEAKER_04 14:52

Um so which is which is uh interesting because at NASCAR you learn formally how to do art. And I was like, okay. But again, I wasn't very formal when it came to my painting over there.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

You got like a lot of colours going. Are you doing some abstract stuff?

SPEAKER_04 15:05

Is that what not specifically yet? I don't really know where it's gonna end up, but we'll see.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

I'm doing Canada.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Oh, I thought it was a castle.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

It is well, there's a Chateau Frontenac, the C and Towers.

SPEAKER_04 15:16

Yeah, is the French compound?

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:20

Where was I? I don't remember. Oh.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

You were oh you didn't like the formal uh No, I didn't like the formal.

SPEAKER_04 15:25

And because of that, I was like, I need to do more. And I actually just got out of like a breakup at the end of my education career. I was like, maybe I should just do a change. Like, why are we still in the why am I in Nova Scotia? Like, I have no ties to being a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Did you leave you because you're all over the place?

Late ADHD Diagnoses And Real Struggles

SPEAKER_04 15:40

Probably. Um well no, it was just you know, you just you that you know when you have your relationships in your 20s and you kind of learn these things about yourselves and what you want, and sometimes there's relationships for convenience, like, oh, you went to school together, but like what do you have in common beyond like school kind of thing? Just growing apart, and like the the different kind of perceptions of things and values, and from that, I mean it was a blessing in disguise because then I was like, well, now I can like you know, you're like and graduate your second degree, you're like, oh now I gotta have kids and get married. I'm like, no, I'm gonna go do something, I'm gonna go figure out more of what I want to do. And I actually moved to Ontario. Ontario. Sorry if anyone. I've been all over the province. I've lived in Yarmouth, I've lived in Antiganish, I lived in New Glasgow, I've been everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Which is a little bit crazy because your family is like a staple of Helix.

SPEAKER_04 17:00

I know, but that's the thing. If you fight that's the thing, if you're all over Nova Scotia, people are still gonna know who uh Rudy is.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

That's true, yeah. So yeah, so Rudy, like her dad is Rudy, like as in Rudy's like, yeah, Rudy's catering in the hold on. So yeah, obviously, like legend in these parts. What was it, 43 years in business?

SPEAKER_03 17:19

Uh but yeah, I think we're gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

He's a hell of a nice guy.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Super nice guy. Yeah, the whole I mean, whole family's great, right?

SPEAKER_04 17:25

But yeah, it's uh But but that hold on, I'm probably not that by the microphone, it's just one second.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Yeah, no worries.

SPEAKER_04 17:32

We need some water. I'm running low over.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

It's gonna be a weird episode.

SPEAKER_04 17:35

It's gonna be all over the place. Well, put three ADHD people in a room.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Let the freak flag fly.

SPEAKER_04 17:42

I mean, it's not typical that a Lebanese, like especially female, is allowed to kind of branch out as I did. But my my family's as we got older, they got kind of more easy-going and open-minded towards these ideas because my dad's an immigrant, so he came here, and you kind of have this idea of how your family's supposed to be, but you you have to kind of change with the with the environment that you're in. Yeah, right. Like everybody else is able to branch out, like, why are we confined in this area? And that goes back to these things of like, I don't follow rules. So even if they didn't want me to, I'm gonna do it anyways. So I moved to Ontario and my I have family in Michigan, so if they felt better about it, because there was family close by, I was like, I'll teach, I'll figure out what I want to do. But then I found this program in Detroit, and it was an art therapy program, so it was a master's in education, but it's specifically focused in art therapy, and I was like, Oh, what is this? And then I found like my two passions, art and like working with people, and combined it together. Okay, and then and thus we are here.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

That's awesome. So now if they go to you, can they get their uh can can you get this covered by medical if I come over and yeah?

SPEAKER_04 18:50

So that's one of the bigger things I wanted to make sure I was. So our therapy specifically isn't typically covered by your insurance because it's one of those creative processes. I I don't that's a conversation that is a bigger thing for me.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

But just tell me a little bit more about it. So why is it covered or why is it not covered?

SPEAKER_04 19:07

So our therapy specifically is not covered. Okay, and that's again, that's the whole insurance situation. So like that's a whole bigger bigger conversation of like why why wouldn't it be covered? It covers the same processes. What's the case? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that's but I am registered as a counselor here because again, we so you could still use the counselor. Yes, so the counselor. Yes. So that's why I say like my modality is art therapy. So like how I practice is with art. But like I am a counselor first. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 19:34

What's the outcome from most of the folks that come visit you? Like what what what are you trying to achieve with the same people and talking to them over art?

SPEAKER_04 19:42

A lot of it is a lot of it is people like kind of trying to rediscover themselves because I advocate a lot for like the neurodivergent brain and how how you're not nothing's wrong with you, you just think differently, maybe than the next person, and you're in that kind of again, that internalized process and how you second guess everything and how the confidence a lot of things come in, a lot of people come in because they second guess themselves. They don't have this confidence, they feel like they've been told they were wrong for so many things in their life, right? Which is common. I mean, if you if you live your life trying to figure out what other people want and need, then how are you ever gonna find who you are as a person?

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Well, that's really true.

SPEAKER_04 20:18

And I have I work a lot with ADHD autism, not just ADHD. And again, those brains are so unique and I feel like they're so misunderstood. And I guess again, like I was so misunderstood that that's why I wanted to focus more on that population.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

The the now I did see on your website though that like it's you do focus on that, but also with like anxiety and things like that. So it's do you also work with people who aren't those but also just have anxiety as well?

SPEAKER_04 20:47

Yeah, so that's the thing, is like a lot of people were diagnosed with general anxiety or like social anxiety and depression, but those are like the con the comorbidities of like the top of the pyramid. I always say, like, you're uh have ADHD, and then with ADHD comes these other yes, because you're an you're you're you have an anxious kind of anxious. Yeah, yeah. And then and then you're like, wait a minute, this still doesn't make sense. Like, why am I still what like why maybe is it and the process is kind of shitty too.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Yeah you know, you wait and you get diagnosed, yeah, and then you just get like prescribed the medication.

SPEAKER_04 21:21

Right, yeah, and you get sent on your way. And that's it, here we go, figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

I guess I'm just on drugs now, and it sucks because you don't really like so I started taking Ritalin.

SPEAKER_03 21:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

The Ritalin would help me with laser focus, but laser focus wasn't my issue. What was your issue? My issue was not focusing on the right thing.

SPEAKER_04 21:44

Yeah, you hyperfixate on certain things.

Task Paralysis, Perfectionism, And Finishing

SPEAKER_01 21:46

So now I was just hyperfixating on fucking more minusful things. Like late at night, Andrew's like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I just need to finish this. Right? And that's the way that's kind of the problem I had. So I found like the the medications that I took, quite honestly, accelerated some of the problems I was having. Now, there was a perfect storm where sometimes they would work. So on a good day, I remember like I impressed everyone at work one week because I had like basically done all the spreadsheets for all the countries and all the things, and it was like best thing for my brain that day. I just wanted to do it. And you know, to ask me to do that again probably never happened, but it was just you know, the the stars aligned that day, and I was motivated to to do something uh different, but more w yeah. I find that that moods can change day to day, absolutely, and that totally affects how or what I want.

SPEAKER_04 22:40

Yeah, and I also say that like medication is always coupled with. So like if you're taking medication, like there's this I'm not a for or against. It's like what works for you.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:49

But if you're not understanding how your your brain is working, then that medication is not gonna serve you as well.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:55

So if you don't realize that you are maybe a person that like has task paralysis, if there's like maybe this pile of work piling up and you're like, hard no, like I'm gonna go do this other thing that makes no sense with what I'm supposed to be doing. And like it's sometimes such bullshit.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

I get that. But it's like task paralysis is a thing. It's such a thing. It's so hard to believe that there's an actual diagnosis for my ability to avoid things that I know need to be done.

SPEAKER_04 23:19

And that's where the whole lazy concept comes in. It's like you're not lazy, you're just literally paralyzed by the idea of having to finish this task.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

No, and and and I'm definitely not lazy. In fact, like I don't ever stop.

SPEAKER_04 23:29

Yeah, that's the I know I do lots of things.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

How can people coin this? So it's like I'm the one in my household. That's usually the last one to sit or the last one to relax. And I don't do that until usually after 9 p.m. Yeah. Like, you know, that's when I'll have my my time or whatever in front of the on the on the couch on the couch. Yeah. But usually before then, I'm never sitting down. I have a hard time.

SPEAKER_04 23:53

Because your brain's like, I gotta do this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and it just keeps going. And it and people don't realize it doesn't stop throughout the day. Like, is there's never you're sometimes people will say, like, this person's in the cloud, like they're not focused, but like it's because their brain has never stopped moving. Like it just keeps going over there.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

I wish I could spend a day in your head, and I'm like, No, you don't.

SPEAKER_04 24:12

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

I mean, it's fun, but like it's like a carnival that doesn't close. Right. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 24:17

Like people jump in the card everywhere, start wheels everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Yeah, it's just like, no, it's exhausting. Like, I don't want to always be here. Sometimes, so I've been doing a lot of meditation this year. That's been helping.

SPEAKER_04 24:26

Meditation? Yeah, yeah. Okay, this is the same kind of concept though.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

So, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:30

This mindfulness and this kind of like taking ourselves out of our brain and putting it somewhere else, or like distracting. Distracting.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

We made a cool investment this year where we bought an indoor sauna. Oh now, it's not it's not a fancy one. So it doesn't matter. We have a hot tub, but I didn't like going outside in the winter and all the things associated with going outdoors and all that. I mean, you know, it's a bit of a job to go outside to get in the hot tub to get out. Then you gotta dry yourself and all this other thing.

SPEAKER_04 24:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

So, so this is not this was just like a cheap thing. So we felt it was at Costco, right?

SPEAKER_04 25:05

Oh, is it the the one that blows up or something?

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Yeah, it's well it's uh yeah, kind of just like a tent. Yeah, yeah. It's a steam sauna.

SPEAKER_04 25:11

Yeah, yeah, I see.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

And it has uh red therapy lights in it. Oh so I go in that every morning. That's probably why my trees really do.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

Oh, the project.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Is this because that's the only I didn't know how the markers weren't?

SPEAKER_04 25:23

I just figured it out on my way.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

I just hold it. But but but yeah, like it's it's really cool. And then I'll put a meditation thing on my uh home Google Mini and listen to that while I'm in the sauna.

SPEAKER_04 25:36

So why do you feel like that helps you though? Why do you feel like the sauna is like a safe space for you?

SPEAKER_01 25:40

It forces myself to not think for a minute. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

And because you're so damn hot and you're just sweating your ass and you're like, man, this is hot.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

You can't think. They're telling you to breathe, so you listen, right? Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_04 25:51

So you're telling me to breathe, so I listen.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Just breathe.

SPEAKER_04 25:54

You're like, okay, just count and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Okay, I'll count. And then, but I know it sounds silly, but it really does help. Uh and you I have to constantly pull myself back into that guy to meditation. She'll be talking or he'll be talking or whoever, and I'll cover I'll go and come back. Yeah. But what's nice is that I come back.

SPEAKER_04 26:12

This is that takes a lot of discipline though. Yeah. For your for your type of brain, like this meditation process.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Oh, it does.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

I've done it every single morning this year. Yeah. And I coupled that with exercise every single morning this year.

SPEAKER_04 26:24

When you started it, was it easy to do, or do you find it like you had to really put the effort into focus on what you're doing?

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Off and on.

SPEAKER_04 26:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

I find myself changing people sometimes. Like so, like there was a voice I was listening to, and she's actually she's fantastic. Her name's Joe, and she does a pre-meditation on Spotify.

Culture, Family Expectations, And Autonomy

SPEAKER_04 26:39

Is it how she articulates things? Is it her voice? What is it that like?

SPEAKER_01 26:42

It's just yeah, real calm, true voice, and you know, you know, but still, sometimes I'm like, okay, I need somebody else today.

SPEAKER_04 26:48

Right, yeah. No, Joe's not working for me. But that's that's you're adapting to it.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

So there's nothing bad against Joe, but uh we'll we'll hang out again. One day. But like it's um, but yeah, no, it's it's really interesting, and I I I had to put a challenge in place because I knew I was getting gaining a lot of weight.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

And I was like, man, I want to like not, you know, not I want to make sure I'm being healthy as I get older in my 40s. Right. So I I made a thing, I've exercised every single morning this year. Well, January 1st onwards, and then I do the meditation after. So it's a whole thing. Yeah, it takes an hour of my day.

SPEAKER_04 27:23

But I mean that's but that's huge to have that put in place.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

So it's making me late for everything else in the morning.

SPEAKER_04 27:28

Well, no, at least it's calming your brain that morning. So, like, you're starting off in a good space, headspace. Like that's in a way better space.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

So that's like leaving this morning. I got up early because I had to come here, and I'm like, all right, I'll friggin' get my thing done because you gotta do I gotta get up at you know 7 a.m. if I want to be here for 10. Right. Yeah, yeah. I'm talking more than you here. Like here. This is a full-on therapy session.

SPEAKER_04 27:49

This feels like a therapy session, yeah, exactly. It's a space for it. Yeah, but that's what I mean. Like those those types of things is that when you say medication, and when you say like, well, I don't see how it works at like at every point in my life, it's because you figured out ways to adapt for yourself, but you've done that for your whole life. Yeah. And that's kind of how you've managed your life. And then we have the conversation now for younger children as like, yeah, medication is helpful, but also like what are we doing to help them understand who they are? And what are we helping them to like move forward so they know that like they are gonna have a hard time doing tasks, they are gonna have a hard time focusing, and that's and they're not wrong about it. There's nothing wrong with them.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

I love that like uh what you just said there, helping people understand who they are. How do you frame that to an adolescent? Because that's something we try to teach our kid, and that's like the hardest thing in the world. Like, where our home is very much, you know, express yourself, be yourself. We want you to be the best version of yourself. Yeah, we have we're really good in that way. That's something we're good at. But I think going beyond that and getting her to push herself to express herself and find her path is tough sometimes. Because there's a lot of resistance there.

SPEAKER_04 28:55

Of course, I mean there's a lot of resistance in teen you're you have a teenager? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you have like the double whammy. So, like when you have a teenager, not only do you have kind of the idea of like going through pre-bescent years and the years, like uh there is like a biological part of ourselves that like our we don't want to listen to our parents. Like we need to leave the nest and like figure it out on our own. So you're fighting against that. That's false. That's very true.

SPEAKER_03 29:20

Is this water?

SPEAKER_04 29:21

That's water, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Were you dipping it in there? I was looking for water, and I was like, I don't know, it may just use a little splash pad over here.

SPEAKER_04 29:32

When you go back to that kind of conversation, like how do we articulate it to our children? It's not like so much articulating things to them, it's modeling it. Okay. So if you expect your child to express themselves, you should also do the same. Do you know what I mean? If they're like, what's wrong, or like what's going on, or if you're angry and you don't really let them know what's going on or what why you feel this way, then how are they gonna model it themselves? Um and it's not that you're doing anything right or wrong in those aspects, it's just like you can you can say what you need to say till the cows come home. Like, you know what's saying? Like, but it doesn't it doesn't matter if you're not modeling it yourself because practice what you preach kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

How do you keep your own kids away from screens and stuff?

Insurance, Credentials, And Art Therapy Access

SPEAKER_04 30:12

I have three kids. So I have a two-year-old, a four-year-old, and a six-year-old. Okay, there's a lot of kids. Yeah, there's a lot of kids in there. So screens are it's interesting for me. So one of my kids has a really hard time getting away from the screens. The two-year-old's not too bad. It's my middle child. Yeah, and my oldest is also not too bad. So we've had because I've implemented art throughout their lifetime, like I'll be like, oh, go draw or go color. But my because my oldest child is definitely spicy spicy, he can go from tas to task and he can go hyper focus on something that he's interested in. So if you have something nearby to focus him on, he's okay. My middle child, it's not that he needs screens, it's that he doesn't like the break when you like say when you suddenly turn something off, his brain can't switch off to like I was focused on this, and now he that goes into meltdown mode.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 31:22

So it's not so much that screens are the issue, it's that we have to navigate like how to present the screens. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:29

So that's kind of been it was it was harder when I had the newborn, like the third child and the newborn, because like I was in survival mode. I'm not gonna lie, like take whatever you want. Yeah, watch whatever you need, just leave me alone for one second, kind of thing. Um, but now that she's older and she's you're able to, she's she articulates things very well as well for a two-year-old. Oh, exactly. And the communication between the three of them, like they play all play together, which is really great. Screens haven't been as much in the frower font as it was kind of when I had little babies around. But I know in teenage years, because I've had this with my own clients, that that can be more of an issue.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

It's huge right now. Yeah, it is a huge one. I'm not in that stage yet. All kids in their teens, like you know, uh, and I mean, you know, it sucks because it's like this thing where one kid, you can't be the one kid in the class watching the phone.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

Yeah, you feel left out.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Feels kind of trapped into allowing them. But I mean, these devices we know now more than anything. Like uh there's a great book that's out right now. I was just listening to an interview of the author. Basically, it's called The Anxious Generation.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

Yeah, Jonathan Hague. My neighbor told me about this, actually. Okay, yeah, it's Jonathan Haig or something like that. I follow him online a lot. Cool.

SPEAKER_04 32:41

She she adored it.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Yeah. So so yeah, so I mean, it it's basically, you know, these because it's click happy. Everything's like immediate, like such a dopamine addictions, and worse than that, it's it's the fact that it's like such an addictive tool. What?

SPEAKER_04 32:59

It is it's because of the dopamine cake. It's like just like it's constant. It's so our so I guess to go back to my kids and how it affects screens, like when it comes to commercials of any sort, pauses. Like we had to wait three minutes for the next thing to come on. Oh, 100%. There's no sort of form of patience.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

And this addiction's worse than cigarettes for kids. And the way that they they they're not letting people, you know, there's they're you know, they should be parents should be suing these companies for you know perarming their children.

SPEAKER_03 33:28

Imagine how rich we would be at this age.

Goals Of Therapy For Neurodivergent Clients

SPEAKER_02 33:30

They well they the thing is is that we now know that the way that TikTok and and all those things and all that well the algorithms, but we know that it it's no different than VLTs. No, it isn't. They're essentially VLTs, right? Yeah, yeah. It's it's so it's it's that imaging and everything that kind of gets people. Yeah. So though it it actually creates an addiction. So I mean you may end up be creating, you know, more you know, even gambling addict like addicts further and everything.

SPEAKER_04 33:57

I'm pretty sure that gaming and stuff is now in the DSM 5. If I I could be wrong, I should double check that. Gaming like yeah, gaming addictions.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

I don't I don't know if it's specifically in it yet, but I know there's like see gaming's the one the one thing to me that helps with my ADHD design because it calms me down or makes me think about a task instead of just beandering about stuff.

SPEAKER_04 34:16

But as an adult, you can recognize these behaviors about yourself. As a teenager, their brains are yeah, they're yeah, as teenagers, their brains aren't in the sage that they can understand like this distinguishing between the differences and they get they get a like a rush from it or a or like a focus on it, or they're they're like get in this there's also so there's a there's a back and the force too, because with neurodivergent brains, screens can be very beneficial in certain ways. It can if you're an anxious child, something like games can offer a place of safety in solitude. Right. That can put you in a reality that you don't have to be in, then you're constantly anxious. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 34:51

That's such a good way to put it. I know. So like it totally makes sense, actually. But it's like sometimes it's actually good for in an anxious moment for my teen to have some part of them. Yeah. It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

Just gotta go on TikTok and it's this weird balance because moderation. Well, yeah, because I mean that that that doctor, that Jonathan guy, this is some of the stuff we've been following since you know, we've I've had a four-year-old and everything. So he uh he talks about how studies now, now that we have them, because we you know, 15 years ago we didn't know. We didn't have smartphones. We are the studies. Yeah, we are exactly, yeah, seriously. So it's like we basically what he said was that every hour daily average that a and it's mostly studies in kids, right? So it's developmental minds. Yeah, that every hour that the that a kid gets on the daily average actually increases anxiety and depression by seven percent. Yeah. And the North American average is greater than five hours per day. Yeah. Which when people say like, why do kids like you know, why do th like kids in grade three have anxiety? And this is this is why, right? It's like I used to say But I would argue that point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:03

Did kids do kids in grade three have anxiety, or did kids in grade three always have anxiety and we didn't recognize it?

SPEAKER_02 36:09

It could be either one, I don't know, but I mean i if if the technology probably is impacting it negatively in some way.

SPEAKER_04 36:16

Yeah, and there's always relevance when it comes to that stuff and like kind of like factual or things that you have to think of exterior factors, yeah. Everything is relevant. Yeah, but anxieties is heightened, but I I can vaguely rem I mean I not vaguely, I can specifically remember as a child like how anxious I was to be in like public spaces too, or like in in group settings or in like those types of things. And I was a kid, I didn't know what anxiety was. So there's I'm there's definitely additions to the anxieties that kids are facing, but I also think that the conversation of anxiety for kids wasn't as prominent as it is now.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:53

Because kids are kids don't if if an adult can feel anxious, how do you think an underdeveloped mind can feel not knowing what's going on that can rationalize and articulate and be logical in a in a space? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 37:07

Yeah, which you know, if by any chance any kid ever listens to this, I'm like, listen, you are shout out Sagey, Reese, and Ziggy. Well, but it's like you you gotta like you know, I hope they hear this message. You don't pay taxes yet. This is the best time of your life. You know, enjoy it.

SPEAKER_03 37:25

That's easier said than done. It is, I know, I know, I know it is, I know.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

But that's what I was always thinking, it's like, you know what? It's like, you know, you get to go to school and hang out with your friends and you know, not have to do what we do.

Medication, Mindfulness, And Saunas

SPEAKER_04 37:36

So yeah, it's I mean that's true, but it is easier said than done. That's easier because my six-year-old is probably one of the most anxious people I've ever met, and he he's anxious because he receives information so much more deeply than maybe the average person. Like he can see body language and people, how they respond and how they act. Right. And they he takes it in, he's like, I don't want to get in trouble or act like that, or people receive me like that, and he's just an anxious kid.

SPEAKER_00 37:59

Right.

SPEAKER_04 37:59

But like I wouldn't I wouldn't attribute to any screams in that aspect. He was an anxious child, but you're right, there is a level of anxiety that comes with these screams.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

Yeah. And I I I think uh so I'm I'm a bit of a a a different case because when I went through and got my assessment, my psychiatrist, I think.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

Psychology. Is it psychiatrist? Who the psychiatrist is prescribed? Yes, that's the one psychologist.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

So psychiatrist, the one who actually like diagnosed me and then prescribed medication.

SPEAKER_04 38:28

Uh psych okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

So yeah. So she did say that I was a bit of a rare case because most times when you are neurodivergent, you have something else. You generally have anxiety or things like that or whatever. I don't. So I don't.

SPEAKER_04 38:44

You don't feel an anxious in the in any aspects of your life?

SPEAKER_02 38:47

I am the I have anti-anxiety.

SPEAKER_04 38:50

I have anti-anxiety. You are a rare case.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

So she yeah, she she when we when we talked through and she asked me a bunch of questions about stuff, uh she said like uh she actually said she's like, oh, what's that blessing like?

SPEAKER_04 39:03

Because like like you didn't have to think about that.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Well, and also I I just like so I mean we my kind of journey, I guess, in this is like my wife's a teacher, yeah, um, and she strongly believes in like you know, leaving no child behind. So she's taken a lot of uh extracurricular courses and stuff like that to learn about neurodivergent, like it's particularly autism and ADHD. And so she tries to come up with strategies.

SPEAKER_04 39:26

That's not that's not as prominent as you would think in in the Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

She she really tries, right? She's grade three, okay. Yeah, so yeah, so she she did say to me, it was probably I don't know, it was like an eight, nine years ago or something like that. She said to me, She's like, I'm not an expert and I can't diagnose you, obviously. But she's like, based on what I know, you are probably ADHD.

SPEAKER_03 39:48

Based on my interpretation, and I was like, You think so?

SPEAKER_02 39:52

And she was like, Yeah, yeah, probably.

SPEAKER_04 39:56

Is she herself?

SPEAKER_02 39:57

No, okay, no, no. But she was just like, Yeah, I think this is the it. So I was like, okay, so I started doing a little bit of reading, kind of trying to be a little more self-aware and everything, right? Right. And the further I looked into it, uh, and the further I I I found myself actually really identifying, even though I probably show lots of external characteristics, characteristics of it, but I do see a lot of the internal stuff where I was kind of like, oh yeah, yeah, I do kind of think like that. Yeah, my mind does work like that way and everything. And so yeah, I but I kind of just shelved it and was just kind of like, yeah, well, I said to her, I was like, should I go and get like, should I go and get medication and whatever? And she was just kind of like, well, I mean, you made it this far.

SPEAKER_04 40:42

Like that's kind of like you know, but that's how I why it's so so hard to get diagnosed as an adult. Yeah. Because they're like, well, you made it this far.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

Well, that's it, right? But then I was kind of like, well, you know what? She was like, You've done well in your life and everything. I was like, Yeah, but maybe I could like take over the world if I uh was more focused. Yeah. So yeah, I was anyway, that that's pretty like so. I let it sit a little bit and and just kind of was like kind of just being self-aware and reading more about it.

SPEAKER_04 41:12

Yeah, question for you then, because I know you have a child. Yeah. Do you see any tendencies in him that you see in yourself?

SPEAKER_02 41:20

Yeah. Yeah, a little bit, but I mean I'm also kind of like, well, he's four. So yeah, he's young, right? So it's like so I don't know necessarily, like, you know, is it or isn't he or whatever, right? So maybe there's definitely some things he has a lot of similar interests that that I have. So we'll see.

SPEAKER_04 41:41

More so in the fact of like, do you see anything that's like someone didn't notice it's you with you as a child that you see in your child, you're like, oh, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Like there's a lot of interests. So it's like the only difference is is that again, like I have that anti-anxiety. So I I would like I'll try anything. I don't like I'm just kind of like, well, alright, I'll just try it, I'll just do it. And and in fact, actually, when someone says, like, hey, would you like to try this or would you like to do this, or like, you know, podcasting or whatever it is, right? Yeah, if uh someone says, Hey, you know, we should try this, I will sit, think about it, and then you know, and it's something I've never thought about before, but then I if I sit and think with it for a minute, and if I my brain decides, like, yes, I want to do that, it's like I really want to do that, and I've wanted to do this my entire life.

SPEAKER_03 42:35

Don't steal my dr don't steal my dream from it. Don't take my thunder away.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

Yeah, that's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

So it but real uh honestly, I think a big part of me wanting to actually finally get diagnosed is actually Mike getting diagnosed. Like he was just kind of like, man, I'm just gonna do it. And I was like, Yeah, screw it, I should just do it too.

SPEAKER_04 42:52

You just wanted the confirmation because I also have clients that like, I don't need the confirmation, or they're like, I really need the confirmation, or I feel like an imposter kind of thing.

Parenting Teens, Modelling Expression

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Yeah, 100%. I I well I didn't want to have, I mean, I you know, one of our if you're diagnosed is you always feel you have imposter syndrome everywhere you go. Yeah, essentially. Everywhere you go. So it's like I just would like to feel like I had one club I belong to. I'm with you guys. And honestly, the best story about getting in that club was the first time I went to pick up my medication. Yeah. So I'm at Sharper's drug marrow, right? Again, the lineup to get the drugs. And anyways, so you know, they're supposed to be ready, they're not ready. Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

You know, shout out to Sharper's always crimson street work.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

Um, anyways, I'm like, they're like, you're gonna have to wait 30 minutes, right? Uh or whatever. And I'm like, fine, I'll wait. Yeah, I'll just wait around. And uh so I'm like going to wait away and walk around. And then there's this dude in the back, he's like, wait, he's like first time diagnosed. No, he did it, no, he did it. And he's like, he's like, I have ADHD too. I was diagnosed in that all too. I was like, cool, bro. And we started talking. And they got me like my medication, like five minutes, and I felt like a champ. I was like, oh, that guy's a man. What amazing. That's amazing. It's like the secret handshake. It was like I finally felt like, oh, I'm in a club now. This is awesome.

SPEAKER_04 44:10

I actually posted something on my story the other day about small talk and like how like I would um refuse, I like anything to get out of small talk, but like something like this, like these conversations of like just let me know everything about you, stranger. Like, I want to know everything. And it's like people, that's when I said like I smelt it. Like I sp you said I I knew because of how you kind of inter you interact with people.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:30

It's like you you just want to know this person. It's you don't want to know like what they're they had for dinner or what they're what they feel about the weather. You want to know who they are.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

There was no short conversation with me. That's it.

SPEAKER_04 44:41

Yeah, never, never.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

And I think the other thing is what what people don't really realize, and like you know, you kind of get labeled like, oh man, they just talk so much. And it's like, no, you don't understand. I can't tell you the two-minute story without all of the context in behind.

SPEAKER_04 44:54

You need the details.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

Yes, I I need to make sure you fully understand. understand the two minute story so I have to give you the 20 minute story.

unknown 45:01

I know.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

And it's it's impulsive. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 45:04

It is. And it but it's also like it's such a beautiful thing with these people. It's like you have this you get to know people and they you feel like no judgment. Because you're like they don't care. Like you can you can tell them your weirdest thing that happened that morning or like what happened with I don't know something in your life and they're like yeah same.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

But it's like it kind of going back a little bit to like the the like the anti-anxiety thing which was weird because that's one thing that like because you when you were talking about it I was kind of like I don't feel that like even even like my wife she I remember randomly she brought up one time and was just like do you ever get let's see I can't even remember the word right now do you ever get intrusive thoughts?

SPEAKER_04 45:47

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

And I was like what's intrusive thoughts? You don't know what an intrusive thought like literally eight years ago how does it feel me there. Yeah she was like she was like you don't know an intrusive thought is like no what's that she was like you know like you know you're driving over a bridge and you like see it collapse or like you envision it collapsing and or like someone breaks into your home and you kind of like come up with an escape route and what you're gonna do and something like I had an intrusive thought the moment I lied down last night for bad I thought my car exploded does that make sense okay see this the thing and I mean and I mean honest to God like I I have the battery charger as you know my car yeah yeah the battery died in the NASDAQ so I had it plugged in one of those overnight chargers to get done.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

I heard like a click outside I'm like fucking let's go fine we're all gonna die did you stay in the bed get the pets yeah I got up eventually to kind of look around but I didn't even actually look where the problem would have been I checked around the house to make sure everything was good.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

So that's the so the like that I would not have that type of stuff right so like I the only thing like the the intrusive thoughts that I get are honestly like nice ones. Like I get out of here I know I get like I get moments of like wouldn't it be cool if I could like we know work in the south of France and like you know every summer while my you know because my wife is a teacher so it's like she could take like this do we take the summer and I could just continue working in there.

SPEAKER_04 47:11

Like I envision that sometimes and so I think you ever get intrusive okay but when you had a child did you get intrusive thoughts like I feel like I wasn't a very anxious person. I was like socially in certain ways but like when I had children like everything made me anxious.

Screens, Dopamine, And Anxiety Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_02 47:25

Children yeah no no no no fear no fear my my my my uh when like when LP was like I don't know I think he was not quite two yeah he kicked off that was brushing his teeth or whatever like you know whatever he had in there and he kicked off the bed and rolled and he hit his head off of the nightstand and he split his head like like right there big goose egg and and started bleeding. And I was just like and I just and my wife who is anxious I was just like I looked at her I was like oh we should probably go to the hospital and she was like what I was like well I mean you know you know he hit his head it split open you know you know you want to make sure he doesn't have a concussion and whatever it's like that's swelling there quite a bit and like that's how that's how my mind that's normal though that's normal for ADHD.

SPEAKER_04 48:11

Boom boom boom like this is what we need to do anything that's really high pressure like like a sorry so you see yeah so it's like I don't worry about that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Now what I've learned though is like I still this is a again sidestep side story ADHD side story I I'm not on the medication yet because what what is a little bit frustrating is that they give you I had to take in like an EKG thing right yes they do they have to give you this thing this is not something that should be left for me to do because I have this sheet in my car and it's been in my car for quite some time for about whatever however many months now right oh yeah and I'm sitting schedule it for me. Well yeah yeah it's almost kind of like can you just schedule it for me because right now it's like you have to call and do that and I'm like I don't think about this during the day. Anyway so I'm still not on medication but what I have been doing for the last 12 weeks is I have been getting like group therapy sessions. Oh really and one of the a couple weeks ago they went over something where they talked about defense mechanisms and they got us to like kind of analyze that and like analyze ourselves and everything. And I think the reason why I don't get anxiety this is one of the things I kind of discovered about myself is why I don't get that is that one of the superpowers I have for defet defense mechanism is compart compartmentalization. I'm like really good at that yeah okay like things don't blend and I can just put it away and I can put it away okay so you shut it off yeah so yeah yeah it's but I will say that the task paralysis thing like I I will say superpower like you know AI and and ADHD I think is a superpower because that combination because I will sit there and go like I don't want to start this I don't want to start this is really awesome for me too oh but like if you can get it kicked off for writing and stuff for me oh my god writing pronoun yeah to build out the bones so you can flesh out because you know because your brain knows everything you just can't articulate it on the right and if you can get it to even do the first 30% I then automatically jump in and I'm like I can do this like this is oh it's already like started I and then I get excited about it because I'm seeing something already.

SPEAKER_04 50:19

Yeah I know it's amazing yeah I mean I mean obviously there's the downfalls with with AI and like that's a whole other conversation but when it comes to like someone who's like dyslexic and I'm like I can't even string a sentence together without having to read it 17 times like can you just edit the sentence for me? Can you just make sure the structure makes sense or or like use a better word for me.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

So in your counselor opinion you think Matt's a psychopath?

SPEAKER_02 50:40

Uh probably yeah awesome yeah there you go I really do that checks out that checks out it's like no anxiety what do you mean yeah it's like terrible nothing I'm fine but you know what the the negative side to that is my lack of anxiety can sometimes be interpreted as lack of empathy.

SPEAKER_04 51:00

Yes okay yeah I mean that's yeah that's fair that that's that's a that's a negative side to that yeah and it's not and it's not that you don't have empathy it's just like people maybe not don't don't think maybe in that moment you should have more empathy in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Yeah a lot of people with ADHD do they do they have troubles with empathy sometimes I would say they're probably highly empathetic.

SPEAKER_04 51:20

Like they're like there's like yeah like but in a way that like is still rational in a sense like you can be like you you can feel for this person but you can also find the solution. Like look at something like okay like you feel this is a shitty situation and but let's let's work to it work on it together. Let's make you feel better. Let's better help yeah yeah like they they problem solve.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

Yes yeah that's a big one isn't that's a hundred percent my like mentality if someone comes to me and says like hey I'm sad or depressed because of blank right my mind immediately goes to like I'll fix it. Yeah yeah let me fix it or hey you don't want to feel like that though right so like let's just figure out a way to move on.

SPEAKER_04 51:57

Yeah or how can I make you feel better in this moment kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

Yeah and people will be like no no no like sometimes you know they you'll hear people say like you gotta sit in your emotions and I'm just kind of like no that's a terrible thing. Why would I want to sit in that emotion?

SPEAKER_04 52:09

Well you do you do because then you learn to process those emotions you're feeling but also you you have to go to the next step of like having to a solution to make yourself feel better from those emotions.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:20

But like all emotions are valid. Like you aren't a robot that's the biggest thing though is like when people would say like don't cry like don't what do you mean? Like that's part of one of my feelings like you're yeah we have these feelings in our body I don't react well with crying at that I mean it can make you feel uncomfy but it's still like positive to allow yourself to cry because it's a release.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Yeah crying there's a there's a reason you're you're crying you're crying weird times I cried when I watched Joe Dirt that is a weird time to cry what so I remember being hungover one time and Joe Dirt was on. Okay they were chucking very emotional movie they were chucking stuff at him at the cover on my porch I'm like that guy who he's a he does he doesn't deserve all the things did you did you was it an internalized thing? Was it like what you believed at any point in your life I find hangovers I can be more emotionally attached to movies after well do because alcohol is a depressant and it makes you sad.

SPEAKER_04 53:19

So that's both science so I I have a I have a question about uh because with you having dyslexia yeah ADHD yeah which is a common yeah yeah but now also being in a point where you're trying to help people through that there's obviously challenges that you have to overcome yeah how do you do that well I mean I it's it's interesting because like I have such I have learned experience and I have ex like personal experience so like as therapist I work with people who I can relate with like these are people like I was you I see this like I understand it so the more the my challenges are really with paperwork like that that's fair that's so true that's my challenge but when it comes to like the interactions with my clients like I feel like that's where my superpower lies is because I can understand it so well and I can like see the things that you've been struggling with and that you talk so down to yourself about that it's not no you're nothing's wrong there. Like I was there. You're nothing's wrong you just were taught that you were wrong and how you are so does that make sense like societal societal norms versus like who you are as a person.

Gaming, Safety, And Moderation For Kids

SPEAKER_02 54:28

So but I mean that that also kind of like is the a bit of that twofold question. It's like you struggle with paperwork so it's like yeah so I mean it makes sense though because if you're dyslexic obviously paperwork is something that is hard to do.

SPEAKER_04 54:40

My demise my absolute demise and you know what is that where AI helped like could that yeah it definitely helps when it comes to like navigating my thoughts like if I put notes down or anything like that and I have it to make it like sound professional in any ways like yeah and there are there's like approved AI things now for for therapists. Like they're integrating with everything now. So it's like I don't want to fight against something that is inevitable especially when if I had AI when I was like in high school or in university hours I would not spend writing papers oh my god the amount of life hours I've wasted on papers is criminal. Yes. So it's it's that's that's kind of the biggest benefit for me because otherwise I've adapted so well with so many other things in my life that I feel like the my biggest downfall is anything that is structured. Structured paperwork but give me an idea I'll figure it out I'll run with it.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

Yeah and so the other thing too is like you you have this this you know your art studio here but you do go into the schools and work with the schools or do you not?

SPEAKER_04 55:50

I do PD days a lot. Okay. So I work with teachers.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

Okay you work with teachers okay um yeah because my my wife knew who like knew the name of the business when I said we were coming yeah wow that's exciting yeah I did the big conference they have a big conference every year and I was one of the presenters and I've done it in the past.

SPEAKER_04 56:05

The reason that it's harder to work with like students specifically because there's like a lot of approval processes when it comes to working in the school although I used to work in the school there's still like those kind of like red tape things but there are definitely more people reaching out in regards to teaching their teachers.

SPEAKER_03 56:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 56:20

And letting teachers realize like neuroaffergi affirming like care and how to like work with students that maybe they feel like it are defiant. When they're not defiant it's like it's like their anxiety's coming out and they don't know how to articulate what's going on or they like their the space is not conducive to their learning. So like teaching people how to teach others too or how to work with others like us. Exactly yeah so Matt George 10 questions I'd love a a very interesting episode of after yeah at least you see our art I don't know if you're gonna see it on the Spotify but you guys actually went with like art I just decided to like draw Canada.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

Oh you know what that's subjective art is subjective so that's beautiful style Matt I like mod looks what about yours is very pretty it's a a sunset over a little ocean see that's that's that's very relaxing and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 57:19

Like the when you look at that that's more of like a yeah it does look you interpret it as relaxing that's interesting. Yeah like I it looks like the ocean in the sunset I see a comet about to destroy civilization he's the psychopath he's the psychopath so I don't know yeah maybe that's true I guess that's true yeah you got you get you the beautiful yeah you're great man that's good thank you got this little tree layers look at this tree yeah okay what's your questions oh yeah okay let's so all right ten questions here we go do do you want to start?

Diagnosis Journeys, Group Therapy, AI Help

SPEAKER_04 57:50

Go ahead all right I'll start so question number one yes if animals could talk which one would be the rudest oh my goodness a raccoon raccoon absolutely okay what do you mean all they do is eat your trash trash pandas trash pandas we are raccoons though as I love raccoons we are yeah humans are raccoons they would be rude because they would they wouldn't be I guess rude they'd be direct yes question number two question two if your life had a theme song what would it be I have the tiger I have the tiger popped in my head tried to survive these children that's like the start of it is all I could hear. The kids are like dolphung so question number three so what's the weirdest you know Rudy's right you know so food so what's the weirdest food combination you actually enjoy the weirdest food combination I actually enjoy for ADHD beautiful man oh well I was I've been pregnant three times so like there's been some weird weird intakes I mean I I I mean pickles aren't weird but like I would have to have a whole jar of pickles like it just that was with my second child only but pickles and what came with the pickles sour candy sour candy and pickles okay I don't know why but like on the day to day like I I'm a raccoon monster like I just like to eat every little thing around you know what it's funny because that kid loves savory things only savory things he he doesn't like he likes no he likes like salts yeah salts in he likes he likes sausages chips he doesn't he could care less about a piece of cake interesting it's my fault there we go all right question number four over to you what's the best food item at Rudy's uh which Rudy's there's yeah you can you can answer that that's open to interpretation okay well the Rudy's downtown definitely the breakfast sandwich that's a that's a 10 out of 10 yeah and then at the AYC oh man you were there you got some food yes I don't know the dinner menu has some good ribs some I'll tell you those those not ribs sorry what was it the lamb the lamb the lamb was delicious it was really good and I will say that uh as much as I'm not a hardcore dessert guy I will say that that creme brulee the pistachio creme brulee is the best creme brulee I've ever had oh Richard would be so pleased to hear that yeah it was so good it's so good but yeah so yeah so the lamb yeah the lamb was so tender yeah the lamb's delicious all right question number five so what's something that you believed way too long as a kid oh my goodness this is a great story so my dad's name is Rudolph when we were a kid he used to tell us his nose lit up at Christmas oh no way we never ever ever saw it and we I don't know why we believed it for so long but we did and I was like wait a minute show us that he's like I can't I was like but you said you're Rudolph so like I I don't remember the crushing moment when it didn't when we didn't but I've specifically I've been telling my kids that too like it's gone down to my children now but nice yeah we believed that for way too long this time so you thought that song was written for your dad we thought he was legitimately his nose turned red yeah question number six over to you there Mike if you had to live inside a movie for a year which movie would you choose a year that's too much of a commitment for me that's that's a long time my sister will know this when I tell her when I say this a freaky Friday okay the original Freaky Friday or Princess Diaries Princess Diaries Those are two staples that I watched as a child over and over you know how we hyperfixate on something?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:35

Yep those were wine that's fair yeah so question number seven so what's one book or movie that you've enjoyed in the past year?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:43

Books I don't read books.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:44

That's fair that makes sense too dyslexic for books.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:47

Yep I listen to things could be audiobook though. Yeah I listen to things I mean in the last year it's hard it's hard as a parent and this is my downfall is that I don't take time for myself when it comes to those things. Fair because most of the things I have to listen to are Paw Patrol podcasts or Netflix originals or sleep time toy or sleep time stories.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:07

Is there a Paw Patrol podcast really?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:09

Not a paw it's like stories. It's just stories. Gotcha but most of it has unfortunately been children's books to avoid the screens that's no that's fair we we got we got a YOTO for my son. I got yeah I got the Tony box. Yeah it's awesome all right so paw patrol uh we're just gonna throw that as paw patrol question number eight over to you if you could rate Mike and that on a scale of one to ten of ADHDHD do we have on a scale of one to ten more who is more I think you're equally tens in your own ways until that in the government ADHD isn't is in a isn't a textbook it's a fingerprint so everything's a spectrum right you just look at his picture here like this no exactly yeah question number nine what cartoon character do that you most identify with oh boy cartoon character do I most identify as bringing me back to cartoon characters remember rugrats of course that was great remember that girl with the the the the the the teenager I think she was Angelica oh Angelica she was like the the one that like ruled the roost yes I feel like I was Angelica and I feel like I still now as a parent and an adult as now Angelica Good core at the end of the movie I think she embodied the older sibling like it was like you you you could you could be mean to your younger siblings but no other one else could be mean to them.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:47

Nobody will believe this but like I was great about parents yeah there's the parents in that show if you watch a little bit older you get a whole new perspective on that show I know it was a well done show it is and I don't know why it's no no longer that I mean it's because 90s cartoons are the best oh my god unreal yeah but it was almost like it was half made for adults it was I mean a lot of there was a lot of humor slid in there for sure yeah question number 10 over to you Mike all right if you could instantly become an expert in something totally random like a competitive hot dog eating or medieval sword fighting what would you pick? An instant expert in something but random though done painting I can probably look at you now I'm so focused on this thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:31

That's okay do you see how well you talk during doing the entire podcast that's how we do it. Something weird I don't even know where I'd go it probably is some some some art craft I mean I st I just got stained glass like I just I don't know how to do it but I'm like this is my new hyperfixation so if I can be an expert in how to make stained glass that's a great answer.

Empathy, Problem Solving, And Emotions

SPEAKER_02 1:04:53

There's a butt painted over there oh there sure is yeah oh yes that is definitely a butt pin it is booty booty I like to paint figures cool yeah yeah all right there you go I had a kid I had a kid come in here once so they're like is that a bum and I was like in the mom was standing right there I was like how do I how do I process I said yes it is all bodies are beautiful all right so we have our last call this we're done with 10 questions last call do we want to I mean I think we know the theme of the year was how we you know how we help people I think we know that one so why don't we go but back to last year's question and ask her that last year's so last year's question was I I forget now I'm having an ADHD moment you were given in your lifetime yeah advice thank you some advice you're given in your lifetime that you like to share with our listeners today yeah some advice I was giving in my lifetime slow down slow down good advice down and that's something I still struggle with but yeah tell me about it given the topic yeah no that's good well cheers to you cheers thank you so much yes great amazing yes this has been really cool yeah where can people find you yeah uh my website uh www.nsarttherapy.com and then ns artherapy across all socials amazing well thank you so much this is thank you thank you it's been wonderful have a great day cheers