Storm The Ballot Box And Fix Canadian Democracy with Joanne Roberts

Something is off when a government can win a “supermajority” while millions of Canadians stay home. We’re joined by Joanne Roberts, author of *Storm The Ballot Box: An Insider’s Guide to a Voting Revolution*, to dig into what low voter turnout really means for Canadian democracy and why people stop believing their vote counts. We talk candidly about what she learned on the inside as a candidate, how parties use data to chase reliable voters, and why that strategy can quietly shrink democracy to a handful of swing ridings. 

We also break down the mechanics that shape everything: first past the post, the promise and politics of proportional representation, and the uncomfortable reality that many ballots translate into zero representation. Joanne walks us through why local riding connection still matters, how minority governments and coalitions have delivered some of Canada’s biggest social programmes, and why floor-crossing can feel like voters lose their voice overnight. 

Then we go where the incentives live: party funding and money influence. From the end of the federal per-vote subsidy to the way access can track with donations, we connect electoral rules to public cynicism. We finish with a forward-looking idea that sparks real debate: lowering the voting age to 16 with mandatory civics, plus how AI and misinformation may change how young voters call out political nonsense. 

If you want smarter conversations about electoral reform, voter engagement, and how to make every Canadian voice heard, hit play, share the episode, and leave a review. What’s one change that would make you more likely to vote next time?

Your Dream Home Does Not Have to Be Just A Dream. Today's show is brought to you by Kimia Nejat of Exit Reality Metro. Kimia is the realtor who knows how to get things done. Buying or Selling? Go to afternoonpint.ca/kimia and we will set up an introduction

Transcript

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Welcome And Book Reveal

SPEAKER_05 0:14

Cheers! Cheers! Welcome to the Afternoon Point. I'm Mike Tobin. I am Matt Conrad. And who do you have with us today?

SPEAKER_06 0:20

And I'm Joanne Roberts.

SPEAKER_05 0:21

Joanne Roberts. Joanne, you have a book with you. What's that book?

SPEAKER_06 0:25

Yeah, and I just strategically strategically stood it up so you could not forget about it.

SPEAKER_05 0:30

It has come up now. Is that your version of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? It is.

SPEAKER_06 0:36

It's called Storm the Ballot Box. Okay. Like it. But you know what? That's what you're supposed to think about. We don't want to do that. Right. It would be better if we all went and stormed a ballot box, put our vote in.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Love it.

SPEAKER_06 0:49

So it's called An Insider's Guide to a Voting Revolution.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

So yeah, now that we've talked about it.

SPEAKER_06 0:54

I know.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Our uh only female prime minister.

SPEAKER_06 0:57

Got it. Good, good on your history.

SPEAKER_05 0:59

Good catch, Matt. And why'd you write this book? Let's get into it, Joanne. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:03

All right. Well, I was I was a journalist in my previous life. Yeah. And then I became a politician.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:09

And thought I knew a lot about politics. I mean, I'd covered it for 40 years. And then I became a candidate in the 2015 election out in Victoria, BC. Ran for the Green Party, which is interesting when you think Kim Campbell wrote by late. But and I came second. And it was a very disappointing loss, lost by under 2,000 votes.

SPEAKER_04 1:33

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_06 1:34

Had more votes than 151 MPs who did get elected. But what I learned was a lot of things about the inside of politics that I didn't know. And I thought, if I didn't know them, other people didn't know them. Yeah. So it took me 10 years, but I then started looking at it. I ran in other elections, didn't, you know, always a bridesmaid, never a bride. And, you know, but every election taught me something. And so I I became very alarmed that 11 million Canadians don't vote in an federal election. 11 million? 11 million.

SPEAKER_05 2:15

Was that in the last election, guys?

SPEAKER_06 2:17

It was it was been an e that we've actually

Why Millions Of Canadians Don’t Vote

SPEAKER_06 2:19

gone lower than that.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

It's like pathetically low. Pathetically under 40 percent in some l in some elections. Wow.

SPEAKER_06 2:26

Forty percent of the population. And this is the statistic that I I like to drag out, and it's embarrassing as a Nova Scotian, but in our last provincial election, and this was planned by the at the current premier, I do believe, we were under 50%.

SPEAKER_05 2:43

So we had under 50% vote in Nova Scotia last uh last election.

SPEAKER_06 2:47

And the cons you know, the Premier Houston got a supermajority. I'd like to remind him, a supermajority from a minority of people.

unknown 2:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:56

Well less than half of the population, I agree. So so why do you think that is? I mean, people obviously gone out to vote for Tim. Why didn't they get out to vote for anybody else? Why do you why do you think, Joanne?

SPEAKER_06 3:08

Well, my theory is, and and and I've been inside a party, so this is a little bit self-critical as well.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 3:17

But the major political parties for sure know who votes for them. I mean, we've gotten very good at collecting data.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Very much so.

SPEAKER_06 3:23

Smaller parties are getting better at it. And I'm not saying that parties don't want more people to vote, but they only want more people to vote for them.

SPEAKER_05 3:31

That's fair.

SPEAKER_06 3:32

So if they're not sure how you're gonna vote, they just assume you're not vote.

SPEAKER_05 3:35

Yeah. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_06 3:37

Makes sense. I mean, except it's not good for democracy. It's really not good for democracy. If you're not trying to convince people to vote, let me tell you a little bit about Australia, where they have mandatory voting.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yes, you you could find a thousand bucks.

SPEAKER_06 3:51

50 bucks.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Is it 50? I thought it was like a thousand, but okay, I was off by that. But either way, it's a fine.

SPEAKER_06 3:55

It's a fine.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Yeah, that's

Mandatory Voting And The Australia Lesson

SPEAKER_00 3:56

crazy.

SPEAKER_06 3:56

And they would rather you give them an excuse and give them a reason and they don't have to find you. But if you have no reasons, 50 bucks.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:02

It may have gone up to 75. But but in Australia, parties do not spend any time getting out the vote, which is what, you know, in the lingo of a party it is. Everybody's out there with their little clipboard.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Right.

SPEAKER_06 4:16

You know, are you gonna vote on the phone? Get out to vote, your voting station is like we spend a ton of time and money convincing people that we need to get them out to vote. In Australia, they don't have to do that.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:29

So guess what? Political parties spend their time and money talking about the candidate, talking about the issues.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:36

Because they have to convince voters to vote for them. In the way our first pass the post works here in Canada, we have to convince people to actually vote, not just to vote for us.

SPEAKER_05 4:50

And and to voter 101, what is Pass the Post?

SPEAKER_06 4:52

Oh, yeah. Just okay, yes, you're right. I share I lingo, you know.

SPEAKER_05 4:57

Matt knows.

SPEAKER_06 4:58

And you know, I'm sure. But so it means that the person who gets the most votes, even if

First Past The Post Explained

SPEAKER_06 5:04

it's just one extra, takes it all in the writing. Okay, so when you vote, if you get 300 votes and I get 301, I win. And your 300 people, what do they get? I hate to say it. A zippo. But I at least they voted. At least they're they told politicians.

SPEAKER_05 5:24

I I don't mean deflate the conversation, but that's probably where you lose a lot of people right there if they don't feel their vote's gonna make a difference.

SPEAKER_06 5:30

Or it or count at all.

SPEAKER_05 5:32

Or count at all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 5:34

Gee, maybe we could put you in favor of proportional representation.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

So that that's the other system, right? And and and and realistically, that's actually the system that Trudeau promised back in 2015, which was a big part of why he was gonna get voted in, is that he said you're gonna do proportional representation. And so, and do voter reform. Yes. And in that case, your vote would matter because then you collect the amount of votes that you have in the country, and then you know, based on however many X amount of people vote, you get X amount of people in Parliament to represent you. Yeah. Right? And so it's an interesting way. I'm not opposed to exploring it as someone who's politically inclined. Yep. My only issue with it is I don't I think there's a natural distrust of government and natural distrust of parties.

SPEAKER_06 6:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

And I don't know if my worry is that like at least, at least if I vote for the person who is in my riding, at least I know that I can go to their office, I can go to them, I can find them on the street at an event, and I can be like, hey, I've been trying to get a hold of you, or whatever, whatever, whatever. Proportional representation, my worry is that if there's 300 and some odd whatever is 355 or whatever. 348. 338, yeah. Well, it's now up to 345. Yeah. Yeah. So 345 people, and say you win 200 of them, are the 200 closest buddies of the prime minister, the ones who get in there. So that's my only concern about that.

SPEAKER_06 7:06

So your concern is what I would say with the nuts and bolts of proportional representation, and there's lots of versions out there, and I'm not going to go into it because you we would go on too long and we'd lose some listeners. But let me put it this way: you will always, in my opinion, choose a system that allows you to vote for people in your writing. You'll might make in one system you make the riding a bit bigger and you vote for two people, right? And in the end, you make up the difference with a small pool of seats, okay?

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 7:36

Because you do not you never want to get away from having a person that you vote for in your riding. So in many systems, what you would do is rank the people in your riding, but then count the proportion of those. And let's say the liberals won 50%, let's say they got 50% of the votes, and they have, I'm trying to do the math, 170 some seats. And the New Democrats only had 11%, which is where they're sitting in the polls right now. And but they only had 6% of seats that they'd won on their own. You'd make up the difference at 4% from either a list that was presented ahead of time, or by looking at who got the second most votes, or you'd find a system. Because I'm I I think you're absolutely right, Matt. You can't take away, we need to feel a connection to the person in the riding.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 8:32

And so, you know, Ireland, where they do this a lot. There's only three countries in the world that use first past the post. That's the UK, the US, and ourselves. So we got lots of examples of countries that have done that. So we we can pick a system that works for us.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

The other thing is The other countries, so a lot of other countries have a lot more political parties.

SPEAKER_06 8:51

They do.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

So that's I think our biggest problem is that we have an issue of like we basically have three majors at like three A class and well say two B class. Right? Well, probably if you count the Quebec, you have to count them because they're they're just yeah, they're a federal party, but they're not a federal party at the same time because they you can't vote for them outside of Quebec. But yes, I would almost throw them in as a C class in a way, but they often are they have been the official opposition.

SPEAKER_06 9:19

And the balance of power.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

And the balance of power, official opposition, they have, that's true. So yeah.

SPEAKER_06 9:22

Well, you see, we have a system built for two parties, and we have five.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Here's the problem. Yes. Right?

SPEAKER_06 9:30

There's the problem.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 9:31

The first year Elizabeth May was elected, so she's the current leader, but she's stepping down of the Green Party. She is the member for Sanich Gulf Islands. And Greens got a million votes in Canada and one seat.

SPEAKER_05 9:44

Right. She has a million votes in Canada, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 9:47

We had a million votes. So it took a million votes to elect one Green, and it took like th 30,000 to elect one new Democrat. There's something wrong with that. Right. So but as I say in the book, I have a whole chapter on PR because I do not want to get weighted down with that's the only thing that's wrong. It is very wrong, but you gotta move past that because even parties that run on proportional representation, like Mr. Trudeau, when they get in power, they don't want to change the system that brought them in power.

SPEAKER_05 10:20

Would they? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:22

So it's you almost need to yeah, you need someone who's very brave and who doesn't uh doesn't feel quite the same self-preservation. So maybe someone at the end of a term or someone but because it was pretty interesting that, you know, the liberals under Justin Trudeau, you know, came from a third place, fourth place party when they were in that election.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

True.

SPEAKER_06 10:49

And managed to end up with a majority in government. And one of the biggest things that did it was they promised electoral reform and then said, no, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_05 10:58

Yeah. Did they promise so that that's really what happened? They promised electoral reform and backed out of it.

SPEAKER_06 11:03

1200 times that promise was made. We counted them in the Green Party.

SPEAKER_05 11:06

1200 times.

SPEAKER_06 11:07

Now he didn't say what he would replace it with, but he did say electoral reform. So it might have been a ranked ballot.

SPEAKER_05 11:14

Let me ask you this, because I mean this is a hot topic, or it's been a hot topic in the news recently. Like the folks crossing party lines. Like, you know, I don't know how I feel about that. Now the thing is, is I believe that, you know, no matter what my politics are, the people of that riding of that place, they deserve their their vote, right? Like they deserve their if

Party Switching And Who We Elect

SPEAKER_05 11:32

they're on if they voted uh for a conservative, whether I agree with that or not, they should have a right to have that writing. Like, you know, and when they cross over, what what like what really happens there? Like where they're they're kind of losing their own question voice.

SPEAKER_06 11:45

Okay, you know, we've got a Nova Scotian who was elected as a conservative, became a liberal. Sure, yeah. Mr. Dontremont. And but did they vote for Mr. Dontremont?

SPEAKER_00 11:56

I think in his case they did. Sure did they.

SPEAKER_05 11:59

In some cases, yes, in some cases, no. But that's also a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

That guy would win an election under any party, I feel.

SPEAKER_06 12:05

So Chris, Chris is a you know, Chris Dostromont is an example of this. We think we vote for a party. We don't.

SPEAKER_05 12:12

No. We don't. But we also vote for the Prime Minister with that res representation, do we not?

SPEAKER_06 12:19

So we don't actually. The only place where you can vote for Mark Kearney is the riding where he is running.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

In Ottawa, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 12:27

In Ottawa. The only person where you could vote for Pierre Polyev used to be in Ottawa, and now it's out in Alberta.

SPEAKER_05 12:34

So But when I vote for the Liberal or the whoever in my riding, that is a vote towards the that the Prime Minister of that party, is it not?

SPEAKER_06 12:44

Well, it's become that. Legally, it's not. Because okay, so let's say they all decided they couldn't stand Mark Kearney. They you you had 1930.

SPEAKER_05 12:59

Mark, we're not saying that, by the way. We still want you on the show.

SPEAKER_06 13:03

And the the leader of the party that gets the most seats gets to be prime minister. That is our tradition.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 13:11

But if you had a minority situation and the left, the governor general said, I want the conservatives to form the government, and I want to see whether they can get a vote of confidence. And the conservatives didn't have a leader. Let's let's just assume he had a heart attack or something. They didn't have a leader. They would choose a leader, and that person would then become prime minister. So technically, you're not voting for the prime minister.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

In fact, actually, I'll even throw you not that long ago in New Brunswick, they had a Progressive Conservative government at the time, went to an election. Progressive Conservative lost the election. They had not a majority, they had let less votes than the Liberals. But because the Liberals didn't form a majority, they were a minority, the govern the Lieutenant Governor of New Brunswick actually said, You guys used to, you guys were basically that you're the champ. To be the man, you gotta beat the man.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

You didn't beat the man, so the conservatives were actually able to try to negotiate to stay in power as long as the NDP or the Green in that party.

SPEAKER_06 14:43

And the Greens helped them.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

And the Greens could help them. And then they they could actually stay in power. And then, and they did, but then they lost a vote of confidence like six months later or something like that. I don't think a lot of people know this.

SPEAKER_06 14:53

And the same thing happened in British Columbia.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

British Columbia had tons of coalitions.

SPEAKER_06 14:57

Coalitions. And we're not used to coalitions in Canada, and we're not used to having agreements.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

It says they haven't been been productive. That's the problem.

SPEAKER_06 15:07

No. Well, some would say very productive because it was a minority government that gave us our student loan program, gave us our old age pensions, gave us Medicare. All minority governments.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Yeah, modern times. Like back when yeah, obviously we got universal health care, which is a large portion of like the NDP, obviously helped that bring that in. They were never in power, but working with obviously I mean, we could currently say I didn't know that. The NDP brought in universal health care. Yeah, Tommy. And what year was that?

SPEAKER_06 15:37

Oh, okay, 1962.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

I'm gonna blow your mind here. You know who you know who's Tommy Douglas's grandson is? No. Kiefer Sutherland.

SPEAKER_06 15:46

What? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:47

Oh, that's cool.

SPEAKER_06 15:48

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:49

Yeah. So I know he makes a great whiskey, that Kiefer Sutherland with his buddies there. Uh Steele's involved in it too.

SPEAKER_06 15:55

Here's the thing about that. So we're sitting here and I'm I'm gonna just go out in the limb and say we're kind of political nerds, right? Like we love talking about this stuff.

SPEAKER_05 16:04

You two are, yes, I agree.

SPEAKER_06 16:06

Oh, you're not kind of jumping us on that one. Oh, come on.

SPEAKER_05 16:09

I'm I'm one toe in the water. All right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:12

But so here's a couple of things that I think we need to worry about the fact that people aren't voting. Because the parties have decided that the political nerds worry about who they're gonna vote for. And a lot of them have made up their mind, you know. Sure. Especially right now, because well, in the last federal election, the party platforms were pretty far apart. Conservative and liberals, you know, even new Democrats and Greens, we all had something special that we were out there trying to get votes on.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Right.

SPEAKER_06 16:42

And and and so then people got in power and started doing all kinds of things we weren't counting on, we didn't vote for. And I I worry that the turnout reflects the fact that they worked very hard. They looked at the 12 ridings in the country that are what we call swing ridings. If we win those, the ones around Toronto, the ones in DC, we can form government. I'm a big nerd who likes to listen to the pollsters a lot. I'm not very fond of polls, but I listen to them a lot. And they they're talking about this all the time. If that riding swings, if this they get two percentage over here. And it's all it's become based on the data they have, and we're just getting more data, not less.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 17:27

And unless something comes along to change it, our votes are going to be predetermined. And the reason I think we had such a low voter turnout in Nova Scotia in our last provincial election is this. First of all, it was in December. Who goes out and votes in December? We're all worried about getting our Christmas shopping done.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 17:45

But but when you see a premier call in an election that he doesn't have to call, wasn't his fixed election date. You think, oh, that's because he knows he can win. Like we're not stupid. We think, okay, he's going to win.

SPEAKER_05 17:59

I agree with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 18:00

So why bother voting? Right? Like I go, oh, he thinks he's gonna win, so it's not that important that I vote. That's what bothers me. And more and more people, and I mean, I knocked on doors for a long time.

SPEAKER_05 18:13

Well, also, in fairness, there wasn't like I mean it's a issue. And I'll just talk to Nova Scotia, and this is again a guy who's not as deeply entrenched as you guys are into politics, but it deemed didn't seem like the Liberals or the NDP or anybody was super ready for that election.

SPEAKER_06 18:28

Why would that be, Mike?

SPEAKER_05 18:29

Because it popped up all of a sudden out of nowhere. I get it.

SPEAKER_06 18:32

Who gets the advantage when you do that?

SPEAKER_05 18:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

That is that is a huge power.

SPEAKER_05 18:37

But at the same time, it's kind of a little bit on us all to be always ready for shit to hit the fan, is it not?

SPEAKER_06 18:44

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 18:45

Right? So it's all of our responsibilities as parties or as leaders and stuff. And I'm I'm I mean, and I'm not I'm not picking sides here. In any way. But I I mean, you know, the the uh the Nova Scotia Liberal Party, I mean should have been ready. So, right?

SPEAKER_06 18:58

They didn't have a leader, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Yeah, they didn't have a leader. Yeah, I mean they didn't have a leader, I mean they had like, what was it, seven members at the time, and they're down to two now. So I mean like well, three, I guess, because Becky grows, but yeah, the it's one of those things where at that time when the election was called, it's strategic like as a political nerd, strategically, I'm like, smartest move ever, right? I would have I would have said the exact if I was in his war room, I would have been like, yup, let's go. Because makes total sense. At this point, Trudeau had not resigned yet.

SPEAKER_06 19:26

Yet liberals were still struggling federally.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

No matter what. Right. They were struggling federally no matter what, even though I can say this until I'm blue in the face, federal parties and provincial parties are not sharing caucuses, they're not the same. A lot of times they align, but oftentimes they all still don't. Right? I have I have a neighbor who is deeply was we're not anymore, but was very deeply involved in the PC Party of Nova Scotia, but very committed to the Liberal Party federally. Yeah, and because it didn't align with the federal conservatives, because they are different. They do have different things. That's why the PC Party was created, right? No, PC Party was first. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:04

That's yeah, so PC Party came first, and the PC Party did not exist after 2003 federally when they had an like I always thought the PC Party was created because the Conservative Party was too conservative and they needed like a lighter version of that for the case.

SPEAKER_06 20:20

No, there was a lighter version called the Progressive Conservative Party. There was, yes. And then they formed the Conservative. So the PC Alliance. Yeah. PC in provincially here has always been what I would say a progressive conservative party. Yeah. Unlike what has happened federally. But you're absolutely right. The public, however, that is kind of a few steps back from politics. Yeah. Here's conservative, liberal, even New Democrat, Green, and we're all one.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Right. We're all one. Right.

SPEAKER_06 20:51

Although, you know, if you take a look at even right now within the New Democratic Party, you know, you've got provincial parties pulling out, and uh i anyway, it's it's it's more complicated than that. Here's the thing, and it's something to think about. I mean, you know, I don't want to suddenly take such moral high ground that I sound like I'm some kind of a saint because I'm not, but um but the first piece of legislation that Premier Tim Houston introduced when he became Premier first was a fixed election date piece of legislation. We were the only province in the country that didn't have one.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

That's right.

SPEAKER_06 21:29

He picked a horrible date, in my opinion. July was a terrible date. And I went and argued against it in front of him.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Sure.

SPEAKER_06 21:34

But he went ahead with it because he knew conservatives will win in July. But this is what makes people so cynical about politicians when they do things that are absolutely self-serving. And then he broke his own legislation with no pen no penalty, as far as I'm sh concerned. Why would they even call it legislation? It's the good old boy's guidelines, in my opinion, because so many premiers just go, eh, who cares about the fixed date? I'm gonna go when I'm ready, and the other guys aren't. And the reason you bring in fixed date legislation is because you want to appear to be fair.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_06 22:07

Because knowing when the race is gonna start is a huge advantage. Even if you're sort of ready, you know how hard it is to recruit candidates, get them all registered through the proper channels, raise some money. I mean, i even if you're organized, that probably takes you six to eight weeks.

SPEAKER_04 22:28

Sure.

SPEAKER_06 22:29

And if suddenly, you know, your earth that wasn't to the ground and you didn't have a couple of leaks in the Conservative Party, you got flat footed 'cause you didn't think you'd go before Christmas.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Yeah. That that that being said, I will say that there are often leaks. And the they the parties often do know. The only the issue with it is the way our system is designed is that it's just very convenient that the liberals are always ready and the conservatives are always ready. Alright. NDP last they they they seem to do okay here in Nova Scotia federally. Not fair they haven't they haven't really been since Jack Layton passed away, they have not been federally ready for an election, even with fixed dates, even if they knew what was going on. They've never been ready for a long time. And that is gonna be the biggest part about that right now, and it's gonna be a huge struggle because the fact is that like it or not, we're talking about, you know, in this country, we're talking about Alberta independence, but at the same time, we're seeing a 51% approval rating by Mark Carney in Alberta. Yeah. Right. So that Alberta independence thing is probably gonna go by the wayside pretty quick. And at this point, it's like that's only gonna hurt the NDP because at this point we're really looking at like it's it's Kearney versus Pierpolyev. And the unfortunate part is that no one's gonna really look elsewhere.

SPEAKER_06 23:49

No, no, and and out of fear and afraid. I was just gonna say thank you for mentioning fear factor. Yeah, because that's it. There's a fear factor, and we saw the fear factor in the last election. Yes, I mean we saw it. People did totally and you know the best campaign factor that the Liberals had going for them was called Donald Trump.

SPEAKER_05 24:07

I thought it was Mike Myers in the hockey ring personally.

SPEAKER_06 24:09

It was a very good ad.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Great ad. But this what we saw in the last election is essentially what happened back in 2002, 2003.

SPEAKER_06 24:18

And in 2015.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah, in 2015, but I'm I'm mostly retired. Like, so going back to like the the PC party and everything, so there was a thing called Unite the Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

And there were three factions on that were quote unquote on the right. The PC were like center, leaning right, and then you had the Alliance and and what's the other one?

SPEAKER_06 24:36

Oh, the P PC guy.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Well, there's no I'm talking about like 2003. There was like because the Alliance joined, and I'm trying it um uh the other party that was over there escaped my is escaping my name anyway, but there was the Unite the Right. And they said, okay, because Cretchen for 10 years just powerhoused everybody. Everybody just was like, in my I guess said this on the show, I think he's the goat. Um and just ran the show. And um, I really think that they said, okay, the only way we can beat Cretchan, the only way we can beat the liberals is that if we unite the right, and they all the right joined together in order to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_06 25:13

Peter McKay from Nova Scotia being a big part of that because he was the PC leader at the time and uh you know met with um Stephen Harper, Stockwell Day, Stockwell Day, all that, and they all came together.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Right. And that's so that's the biggest thing. So they united the right, and they didn't win right away. I mean, Paul Martin won, and then turns out Paul Martin was subpar as Prime Minister, and in 2006, Stephen Harper ended up winning. The Unite the Right worked three years later.

SPEAKER_06 25:38

Minority government. Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Minority government, but still he still got the job done.

SPEAKER_06 25:43

And that and and proved that his theory worked. Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

And that's the thing. So and and now we're in a situation where we did we didn't unite the left at this point. What we did was if the collective uh between Donald Trump and lack of trust in Pierre Polyev, we saw people just naturally unite the left. And just go like I mean the the liberal vote was a sovereignty play, I think, oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But I also thought that people who are are center-leaning right saw themselves in Mark Kearney. And and they they they were like, okay, this is a guy who I can roll with who's not, you know, as you know, I can I can see myself under his umbrella. He did what the right would do, which is have the big umbrella.

SPEAKER_05 26:31

So I'm gonna ask you a question, Matt. Like so since you you you've already uh labeled Mr. Kretchenic the goat, so do you think like Kearney's going to be this next era of like hard to beat on the liberal side, or do you think his uh defeat could come faster?

SPEAKER_00 26:46

I don't I don't I don't think he will have ten years of success that Kretchihan and I mean realistically Kretchan could have gone further if Paul Martin didn't stab him in the back essentially.

SPEAKER_06 26:56

So I don't think so, and I'll tell you why. I don't think Mark Carney wants it.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Yeah, fair.

SPEAKER_06 27:01

Mark Carney came in to solve a problem.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 27:04

And I don't agree with a lot of what he's doing right now, but do I think he is a person who cares deeply about Canada? Yeah, I do. And I think he didn't have to become Prime Minister. The man's got every credential under the sun. He could have made a ton of money doing all kinds of other things. And he thought highly enough of our country to say I might be able to save you from Trump. And to be honest, he is the right person to save us from Trump. I and I I'm I am obviously united.

SPEAKER_05 27:32

But it's no, but that I that that's cool that cool to understand. So I mean uniting the world, I feel.

SPEAKER_06 27:37

Yeah, but here's the thing. Unless he gets bitten by the political bug and loves it, and that might happen. Yeah, one more election max.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_06 27:46

He he's just going to say, I need to finish what I started, and then he wants to go off and do his own thing. And I wish him well at that. And and then I think we'll get back to m what I would call more normal politics. I what what worries me is we've now gotten into this very, very divisive but dual system. Yes. We're back to liberal, conservative, liberal, conservative, and liberal conservative. I agree with that. Yes. The NDP is struggling, even with Abby Lewis, who's a very popular person to come into this. And if if Abby can't revive it, the Democrats are there, but they're broke, they don't have much money. Right. Greens are about to change their leader, there may be some rebuilding there. Now internationally, Greens are actually doing quite well, so maybe we'll start to pick up in Canada, but it's a rebuilding process. And under First Pass the Post, back to the winner takes all, it's very hard to build a party. Here's something else that changed that very few people know about or care about, but it mattered and it changed how this happened. Stephen Harper got rid of what's known as the per vote subsidy. Okay. Yes. And that meant that if you voted for the NDP or the Greens or someone who didn't win, your vote was worth $1.40.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 29:03

Okay? That money went to the party. So if you got a million votes like we did, we got $1.4 million.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

But this still exists in the provinces.

SPEAKER_06 29:12

In the provinces, but not in federal.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Yeah, not federal, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 29:15

Which I found is like Which and of course the public right now doesn't want to pay political parties anything. Like trying to bring it back would be difficult.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 29:24

But Cretchim, the GOAT, put it in place when he was reforming the way parties are funded.

SPEAKER_05 29:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:33

And it was a brilliant move. Let's give him credit for that.

SPEAKER_05 29:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:36

It wasn't. And Harper got rid of it.

SPEAKER_05 29:38

But isn't it hard to compete? Like a thousand dollars versus a million dollars, or you know, if you're if parties have have have less or more money.

SPEAKER_06 29:46

But some money matters. Okay. Some money is better than no money. If if you're, you know, if you're in the $200,000 mark and the your next door neighbor owns two or earns two million, right? You're still

Per Vote Subsidy And Party Funding

SPEAKER_06 29:57

living a good life.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like a luxury tax in like in sports. So like the high the high expensive teams, like the Yankees and the Red Sox and the Dodgers can go out and they can spend over the cap. Like you have a cap and you can spend over that, but they're going to essentially kind of tax you. And they take that taxed money and they give it to the smaller market team so that they can still be profitable. And it's kind of like a same kind of idea is that at least if you get votes in there, your war chest is not empty at the end of an election. And you can bounce back and you can still fundraise. But the thing is, if you are in the negative, it's really hard to bounce back. And they the thing is the two major parties have no problem fundraising.

SPEAKER_06 30:39

Oh, they're making money because they they can sell access. Access and they have historically. Yes, they know that they're likely to become government. What do you do if you're a party like the New Democrats or the Greens who aren't likely to become government, at least not right away? Right. What are you selling? You're selling what you believe in, you're selling that your voices matter in the House of Commons. I mean, those are valuable things, but man, it's hard work. So you spend your very little budget on raising money.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

That's right.

SPEAKER_06 31:06

Right? And you don't have the staff, and you don't have, you know, I could go on and on. So at least that per vote subsidy allowed the party to run as a party.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:16

And you had to get, in order to get the subsidy, you had to get over 2%. I mean, there were a lot of rules, but bought so that not every fringe party out there could get it. But you had to get over 2% of the national vote. So you had to prove you could do that. And it allowed parties that were smaller to at least work hard to, in writings where they thought they could win, put some energy. That was a change that really pushed Canada back to the two-party system.

SPEAKER_05 31:44

Yeah. So that means me back to you, Miss Green Party, Miss Political Advisor for the fringe independent parties that might take over. I think it's a noble role, right? I think it's cool. So there was a great thing that Matt had in here about the voting age debate. We talked about this in a pre-interview, and we'll just I'll just spill the beans. You were for the 16. Drop the vote. Why do you think that would help?

SPEAKER_06 32:11

I am very much for it.

SPEAKER_05 32:12

Drop the age limit a little bit.

SPEAKER_06 32:15

The 16-year-olds should be able to vote. Let's be really clear what I believe it. Why is that? Because I can hear everybody out there who's listening, oh no, they don't know what they want. They would screw it all up. There's lots of research now that says, first of all, they wouldn't screw it all up. And secondly, they wouldn't actually change the outcome very much. 16-year-olds are as divided as the rest of us, right? What they would do is train people to vote. Okay, this is so important. The biggest bunch of voters, the people who vote the most, are age 64 to 74. So bottom line is they're getting older. And I'm looking at myself. The group that don't vote, so they voted about 75 to 80 percent. The group that don't vote are 18 to 34. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:03

Right.

SPEAKER_06 33:03

And if you go down to 24, they're under 50 percent.

SPEAKER_05 33:05

So I probably, I mean, I probably missed some elections in my 20s, I'll admit, right? 18, 20s, and then when I was in

Let 16 Year Olds Vote

SPEAKER_05 33:11

my 30s, I started paying more attention.

SPEAKER_06 33:13

You're on you're unusual. Yeah. Because the research says if you don't vote in the first election you're eligible for, you're unlikely to vote in any other election.

SPEAKER_05 33:24

Wow. Really?

SPEAKER_06 33:25

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 33:25

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 33:26

So that's why.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

It's because I met Matt.

SPEAKER_06 33:28

That's that's what did it bump into this guy?

SPEAKER_00 33:30

I couldn't wait to vote. I was 14 years old. I actually said at 14, I said, I'm gonna be a politician someday. I'm gonna run for office someday.

SPEAKER_06 33:37

I know your mother. You were raised as a voter.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

The funny thing is, though, is like mom really looks at me a lot right now, but I know uh it when it comes to like And you probably don't agree on a ton of stuff, yeah. Some things we agree with and some things we don't, right? But I mean for the most part, I think you know, we do. I think we agree, like there's details we don't agree with, but in the end, I think we do agree with like the kindness of people and things like that and how government should operate in that way. But like I I my grandfather was very political, right? In the sense that he he had a lot to say, and I'm like that too.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

But it it I that's a big thing to me is like I I re I can remember my grandmother and grandfather talking about Pierre Elliott Trudeau, right? And I mean and John Buchanan. And I mean I the a big talk of John Buchanan, and John became a good friend of mine who like who would have known, like later on in my life. I I met John when I was in my teens and became a little bit of a political mentor. You know, he liked to tell lots of stories, we'd sit and chat. I mean, John was very special to me in terms of that. And I mean, think whatever you want of his politics. You know, I know he was a progressive conservative.

SPEAKER_06 34:44

He was a good man.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

He was a good man, uh, and I mean, you know, his progressive he was he was a true progressive conservative. I'd even sometimes I'd even tease him sometimes and say, like, you're not that conservative, John. You built more schools and hospitals than anybody, right? Like, it was one of those things.

SPEAKER_06 34:59

You know what my mother, who also knew John Buchanan and Mavis quite well and went to school with John. In our household, he was known as Hunk Buchanan.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Oh, okay, there you go.

SPEAKER_06 35:09

Okay, now this was before, you know, like who knows? I I thought that was actually his name when I was a little girl. Oh my gosh. Hunk Buchanan. Who calls him?

SPEAKER_00 35:17

My grandmother had a crush on Pierre Ellie Trudeau. Well, I'll tell you.

SPEAKER_06 35:23

But here's the thing, here's the thing. You know, and I think it is important, and I again, chapter in the book, on raising a voter. Yes. Like, raising a voter is having these conversations, introducing your kids to politicians. Taking them out, taking them with you to the polling station. I took my 93-year-old mother with me to vote in the last election, and she said to me on the way to the polls, I've never ever missed an election I was eligible for for since the time I was born. I said, Why is that, Mom? She says, Because I knew men who died for the right to vote.

SPEAKER_05 35:57

There you go.

SPEAKER_06 35:58

And we have lost that generation, right?

SPEAKER_05 36:00

Big time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:01

The kids today didn't die, or don't know anyone who did. But 16-year-olds are in school. Here's my big argument for this. They're in school, so if you're gonna let them vote, you gotta give civics is mandatory.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:14

Mandatory. You have to learn what does your vote do? Who what do they control as federal politicians, blah, blah, blah. And then if you've taught them that, they have a reason to want to go vote.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Right.

SPEAKER_06 36:28

And they're still young enough that they're not going. You know, when you're 18, you're probably out of the house, or at least out of school, and maybe you're off at university, and ah, your friends aren't going to vote, and there's a party tonight, and oh, is there an election going on? I'm not even sure who I should vote. There's a lot of things that keep you away from voting. But when you're 16, your parents can say you still have to vote. Your teacher can say you still have to vote. Bottom line is you have more control over making them vote.

SPEAKER_05 36:54

I'm with you on this. And and but just to play a polite uh adversary. I mean, I I feel now, I mean, yeah, we talk about politics in our home all the time. And we talk about different parties and transparently, and we try not to hate, we try to just talk the value of it. And when we and the the big thing I I I probably hate the most about politics now is there's so much mud slang back and forth. And it's just like, what are people actually saying? What do they stand for? What are their belief systems? What are the structures like? And then you can make an informed decision, which is really hard to do in today's climate, whether it's Canada or the US or anywhere, right? Especially what you see in the US, because our kids, they all see more of the US than they do Canada Canada, right? So they see the the the weird political dystopian that that's America right now, and they're they're wondering, you know, they're kind of reflecting that back to Canada. But the other thing the kids are is they're now in a world of adoptive AI, right? And they're also in a world by your face, you're not gonna like the second part of this question. So so but but they're also in a world of adoptive AI. Yeah. And they are quickly realizing that a computer, and and be it but it may, can come with a pretty sensible and logical solution for most things. So if they can't figure out something in their own minds, they consult chat GPT or chat whatever. Yeah. And I've seen my own kid doing it. I mean, I do it myself getting this thing, but to get the values to get that, but not only that, I mean, they're now diagnosing the pro they could diagnose the problems themselves. They might come up with better answers than the political p platforms. So I guess my question to you is, is a political party's gonna go by the wayside due to AI, do you think, or is it going to change the dynamic when these kids could vote and actually have all this information at their fingertips and they could actually say, no, Mr. Whatever party, you're bullshit, and I'll tell you why.

SPEAKER_06 38:49

Wouldn't that be the best thing in the world? I I would actually like that.

SPEAKER_05 38:53

You

AI, Misinformation, And Youth Politics

SPEAKER_05 38:53

like that?

SPEAKER_06 38:53

I like that. I had you're the first person to ask me that. And I hadn't thought about it. Would AI replace politicians? No. But could AI affect an election? It's already doing it. So absolutely. But you know what? I I won't you said I could swear on this show, right?

SPEAKER_05 39:11

Oh, please do.

SPEAKER_06 39:12

The bullshit meter is really good in 16-year-olds. Like they see it better than we do.

SPEAKER_05 39:19

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 39:19

Like, I mean, you know, they're calling it. I actually think that would be a good thing.

SPEAKER_05 39:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:24

Because here's the thing if if they can vote, they can also run for office.

SPEAKER_03 39:31

Right. Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_06 39:33

Hadn't thought of that, but but it's true. Yeah. And they have done it. You know what I mean? But here, let me let me get one thing dealt with because I get this question all the time when I say I want 16-year-olds to vote. People go, no, no, no, their brains aren't ready for it.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Yep. Oh, give me a break.

SPEAKER_06 39:51

Yeah, exactly. Because they've done now all kinds of studies in countries where 16-year-olds vote and they're allowing them in the UK now.

SPEAKER_05 39:57

I challenge my 14-year-olds ready for it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 40:00

And in fact, I think I was probably better at 16 than I was at 26, you know?

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 40:05

But because they've studied their brains, and the brains of a 16-year-old are as strong on making informed decisions as the brains of a 24-year-old. That was the comparison they did. And I've knocked on a ton of doors. I can tell you there are lots of people that are older than 18 who probably shouldn't be voting.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

It's almost like you need a line.

SPEAKER_06 40:29

And and I think, you know what? If they suddenly were able to vote, first of all, it would scare the shit out of politicians.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

That's the truth.

SPEAKER_06 40:38

Right? They'd have to suddenly care about 16-year-olds, which right now they don't. No. They don't care about anything a 16-year-old cares about. And they'd have to figure out how those 16-year-olds are going to vote.

SPEAKER_03 40:49

See Tim Houston dancing, doing weird dances on TikTok.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

That'd be actually the best thing that would come out of all of it.

SPEAKER_03 40:59

Let me teach you the Tim Houston. The floss.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

I can't even do it. Oh my gosh, that would be so funny. So I I agree with 16-year-olds voting. Start a campaign. I would disagree with them running.

SPEAKER_06 41:13

I do think that would be. But you know what? They'd have to get elected. And I'm not sure they would. But they if I don't think they would. If they worked hard enough, though, but just think what they'd learn if they ran.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

I think they should be involved in campaigns. I just I struggle with the the they have issues that are important to them. Yes. And they have to consider, and this is why I agree with it, because they have issues that are important to them and they have to consider about their future. Politicians today are making decisions on literal their literal future. That being said, I would not trust a 16 or 17-year-old to make decisions on me as a homeowner, as a taxpaying tax, whatever, right? Like those decisions, they don't know what it's like to run a house. They don't know what it's like to pay taxes on like a property tax to maintain those things.

SPEAKER_06 42:00

Yeah, but you have people running the country who have billions of dollars. They don't know what it's like either. No, I know. I totally agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

And you know what? I I used to be more like I was definitely more right-wing and I was definitely more um uh capitalistic thinking. And now I've really come around to the fact that like, you know, I kind of don't feel like billionaires should exist. And uh it's actually uh there's a question later on that I'll ask you, but but it yeah, I like I don't think billionaires should exist. I I wouldn't exist, but they should pay for it. I think they should be taxed at 90%. If if you're if your net worth is is over a billion dollars, you should pay a 90% tax.

SPEAKER_06 42:36

That used to be the case in the United States. Under FDR, that was the case. That's right, yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

If you were over a billion pay. If your net worth is over a billion pay, 90% in tax. Wow. Because here's the thing if you're making even if you're making $10 million a year, you're still gonna make a million dollars a year on top of your thousand other millions. Yeah. Like get over yourself.

SPEAKER_06 42:57

But here's the thing, too. I mean, I I don't wish them poorly. But I don't wish them poorly. But but the bottom line is they're not contributing their fair share. I saw a very good quote the other day, so I'm not gonna take credit for it, but it was a government shouldn't be run like a business because the business of a business is to make profit for shareholders. A government sh business should be for what is best for its citizens. Right. And that is not profit for shareholders. So you should run it responsibly.

Tax Fairness And Billionaire Power

SPEAKER_06 43:25

Yeah. You don't run it into the dirt, you know. But but we've lost that. I mean, I'm gonna blame Stephen Harper for this because he did it, but he changed us from citizens, which is what I believe we all are, to taxpayers.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

Right.

SPEAKER_06 43:40

He never used the word citizens, he always called us taxpayers. Why was that? Because he only wanted us to react to lowering taxes. Nothing wrong with lowering taxes.

SPEAKER_04 43:50

Yeah, but the psychology behind the word our taxpayers need more.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

Here's the thing, we should lower taxes. I was actually reading something last week and said if we properly taxed the 1%, even and just the billionaires, but we could. Is this in Canada? You're talking in Canada? Yeah. I was if we properly taxed the 1%, we could not tax everyone who made under $200,000 a year as a household.

SPEAKER_04 44:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Not tax them.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

Yeah. Push that button.

SPEAKER_05 44:20

Where are we on the brink of a sound effect button? There we go. We haven't broken a sound effect button in maybe a hundred episodes. So there you go.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

Could you imagine if like the what we how many people we could lift, uh, not just out of poverty, but also lift people like you and me who are We're not hurting, but we're like, you know, it's one of those things where it's like you could really reinvest in retirement and have people properly retire if no one under uh under a household, if you paid no tax under your first and and this is equal to everybody, your first $200,000 that you make, you pay no taxes. That applies to billionaires too.

SPEAKER_05 44:59

First we're gonna have to chat console with chat GPT so that actually makes sense. But if we do, this should be something that the Green Party should run on. We should. You know, like you guys should totally run on that. We can play the episode back. You don't have to write it down.

SPEAKER_06 45:14

But here's the thing we haven't reformed, reformed, like totally overhaul our tax system since 1967. Right. Okay, we keep running in the Green Party. The the tax system is. And let's go back.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

What was what was going on with the taxes in 1967? Well, 67 was a a change in our uh our system because we had uh uh like the formation, legal formation of Canada really kind of happened.

SPEAKER_06 45:39

And and you know, look, we we had uh tax I'm not against taxes, okay? I'm not against taxes. I bel I love my health care. I love having my garbage picked up, I want a military, I'm I'm okay with those things which are paid for by taxes.

SPEAKER_05 45:52

I want all those things too.

SPEAKER_06 45:53

I do too. So I'm not opposed to taxes. Yeah. But right now, taxes feel very unfair in this country. Unfair. Like if you're super, super below the poverty line, you probably don't pay too much. And that's about the only good thing about our tax system. If you're stuck in the middle, you're paying through the nose. And if you're way, way up here, you're not paying, you found you've paid someone to make sure you don't have to pay. 100%. And so that's not a fair system. And Canadians know that.

SPEAKER_05 46:25

Right.

SPEAKER_06 46:25

They know that. I don't think we're opposed to paying those.

SPEAKER_05 46:28

We also don't see, like, and this kind of goes back to the beginning of the theme of your book. This goes back to everything. This goes back to we don't think our singular vote makes a difference. I mean, you know, when we look at what the NDP's platform is, we're not seeing that solution there. No, we're not seeing that solution, no offense to the Green Party that you represent. We're not seeing it with the Liberal Party, we're not seeing it with the Conservative Party. So what's the freaking sense?

SPEAKER_06 46:50

Well, here's the thing. Okay, I was talking to someone who's a very active Green the other day, and they said to me, a 1% tax on billionaires, just a 1%, not even like taking 90% like you want. We could have free transit across the country. Now, free transit to most of us who own a car is not a big deal. But if you're someone who takes transit, do you know what? Like a student, yeah, uh you know, a senior, whatnot, free transit would suddenly get a lot more people on buses for us.

SPEAKER_05 47:20

Yes, it would get more people on buses than it would be. Okay, maybe I'll take the buses great. A greener, better solution. And why don't we want that? Why don't we do those things? If I had the opportunity right now where I live for a bus to pay me on my doorstep and get me quickly downtown, you'd take it. Why would I park?

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Right? Yeah, yeah, there's no place to park. But I I I have a question because I mean, yeah, you've obviously like I gained a lot of experience running in one election that I lost. Yes. You've been involved in many elections, and I mean also you, you know, you have a uh journalistic past.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

So you've had a lot of opportunity to talk to people of different colors and backgrounds and all that stuff. One thing that I have not been able to figure out is the people who make, we'll say under the 200,000 or whatever, right? I mean, I'm like it's like there's that I'm gonna go back to that 200,000 mark just because like that's a household. That's a household thing. And that's and that's what this that's what this study suggested. Yes. So I'm gonna go with that. So there's there's uh the 200,000 household, but yet there are people who live within that bracket that are basically like cucks to millionaires, and they will stand up for their right to exist. And yet, if we said, hey, we're gonna tax them and we're you're gonna be able to keep all of your money, they'd still be like, but they'd still be like, no, no, no, no, like they don't tax them left over over from. Like, what's that mentality from?

SPEAKER_06 48:47

We bought we bought into what has been proven not to work for anybody. Trickle-down economics.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

Reconomics?

SPEAKER_06 48:55

Regonomics. That if you were a millionaire, you must have been smarter, more charismatic, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You should keep your money because whatever you do will be good for me and it'll come down to me. We know that is friggin' not true anymore.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Well, more than ever, it's hoarding.

SPEAKER_06 49:12

More than ever. Like they're not spending their money on us. Right. They're uh there's a wonderful interview on the CBC. They the show ideas did a whole thing on billionaires, and they interviewed the granddaughter of Roy Disney. She's a Disney, and she gave away her millions. She kept a certain amount, and she said, not and she if you get a chance to listen to just that part of it, she talks about how it wouldn't even change their lives to be taxed.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

No.

SPEAKER_06 49:44

She said, they just have now gotten into a competition with who's got the most.

SPEAKER_05 49:48

Right. It's a l it's a status.

SPEAKER_06 49:50

It's a status thing.

SPEAKER_05 49:51

Kind of like when my partner collects sea glass down at the beach, right? You know, you know, she wants the blue sea glass.

SPEAKER_06 49:56

And she wants the most.

SPEAKER_05 49:57

Yeah, she wants the most.

SPEAKER_06 49:59

It's her nature. Yeah. And and and we need that's what government's there for, to say, well, that's not good for everybody. It might be good for you, but it's not good for everybody. So we as a government used to be.

SPEAKER_05 50:11

It's like you teach your kid to share their toys, especially if they have more than the next kid.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

You know, we've had a lot of politicians on here, and I've asked every single one of them of all different stripes, to say, like, you know, what can government really do to help people today?

SPEAKER_02 50:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

And the the biggest thing is is because I I'm I'm a firm believer that like there's nothing that a government can do to help your grocery bill. Because that is controlled independently. I mean all there's little tweaks they can do.

SPEAKER_06 50:37

I got my 50 bucks back. Did you get your 50 bucks? I didn't get 50 bucks back for the bread. I got mine.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Oh, that's yes, I did get that. Yes, sorry, yes, sorry.

SPEAKER_06 50:45

Said that was wrong.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

That's true, and I agree with that. But I mean, 50 bucks is not not putting anyone out of poverty, right? No, it's not. But my thing is, is like, you know, everything is going up in price. Yeah. And that's just the nature of things, right? The governments can't, unless government's gonna get into being the mandated, like, we're gonna get rid of competition, and the government is gonna be a not-for-profit grocery chain, we're gonna operate across the country, and we don't care about making money, we're just gonna sell you products as cost. Period. That's the only way that they could do it. Now, I don't think that'll happen, it won't fly with a lot of ways. But this the prop but proper taxation, I believe, is the only way governments can help people.

SPEAKER_06 51:21

It's their best tool.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

It's their best tool. Because in the end, like you you can't force a company to give me, you know, I I can't be forced to get a 20% raise. Yep. You can't do that to companies, right? The the only way you can do it is like we're gonna tax people the right way, the people who are earning it, the people who are have more than enough they could ever spend in their life, and we're gonna make it so that you don't pay.

SPEAKER_06 51:42

So only why don't they do it? I totally agree with you, but I'm gonna throw it back at you. Why don't they do it?

SPEAKER_00 51:48

Yeah, what do you think? Oh, I can tell you exactly why I think it's a good idea. I've been I've like I'm a political geek, but I've been getting more and more cynical about this stuff, which is not really like me, but still I have. And I've come to realize with some of the issues that have really mattered to me over the last year that I've been trying to bring forward, and I'll be the first one to say it. If you're not a if you're not a if you're not a popular voting, like voter topic, we can see that that can move things. Houston backed off some of the cuts because they rallied, right, with the with the people with special needs and everything. They rallied and he was like, ooh, election issue, back off.

SPEAKER_06 52:26

I'll look bad.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

If if you have the voting power, you can get things done.

SPEAKER_06 52:31

Who has the voting power?

SPEAKER_00 52:32

But the other thing that exists in our system that people don't talk about is the money power. And that the and I've said this. If I I have an issue that matters to me right now and I'm having a hard time getting it hurt.

SPEAKER_02 52:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

And I guarantee you, if I donated $20,000 to the PC party every year, on the I bet you if I called anyone, I'd probably have Tim's cell phone number, or I'd have someone else somewhere around and be like, hey, I want a meeting. And I've been asking for a meeting for a long time, two months now. And I was vocally loud and supportive of the PC government. Yeah. And I'm still not getting it, right? Because my issue is not a voting thing, and I don't donate a bunch of money. And so I I was in support of Tim because I liked a lot of the things he did in his first term.

SPEAKER_06 53:19

I did too.

SPEAKER_00 53:19

He he he did some great things, like like my wife being able to go to a pharmacist and get her strep throat, and like that was it.

SPEAKER_06 53:28

Expanding scope of practice. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

All those things, like he's done some great things, and he has some good ideas. I like wind, the wind energy investments. I like all these things. I and those things I don't want to lose away. But the fact is that I have another issue that's not popular or fit in that issue. And we did a podcast on it, and I've been trying to get heard for a while, and I haven't. So

Money Influence And Voter Cynicism

SPEAKER_00 53:48

I'm I'm getting a little cynical, and I I know Sorry, what was the question? I law like that.

SPEAKER_06 53:53

But the question is the reason that no government doesn't say okay, let's change the tax system, we'll tax the very rich, and we'll save people under 150,000. Let's say we're not even going to go as high as 200, that they pay no taxes. Yes, right. And why don't they do it? Because I mean that would put money instantly into our economy, right?

SPEAKER_02 54:12

Right.

SPEAKER_06 54:13

They don't do it because those who have the most influence now in government are those with over government, are those with money. Because they're the argument would be, well, they're the people who create jobs, they're the people who, if they take all their money and run to another country, like you know, it happened in New Brunswick when the earrings were challenged, they took their money and went to Bermuda, right?

SPEAKER_00 54:35

I'm I'm gonna paint a picture for you here, too. Like you were talking about taxing people who make it you know millions of dollars, things like that. All they have to do is be like, hey, you know what? I'm gonna donate to X Party $100,000 a year. That they'll they yeah, they give up $100,000.

SPEAKER_06 54:49

Yeah, which means nothing.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

Which which can in turn be nothing because they would make more, but they keep the the the they have like the power of saying, like, do you want that $100,000? Well, that don't don't tax me another million though. Right. And on top of that, they donated it to a federal party, which means they get a tax write-off for it anyway.

SPEAKER_06 55:10

Well, they can only give so much, but they found a way.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

But they've found ways around it.

SPEAKER_06 55:14

And that's why I come back to, and it's hard for smaller parties to fight that because they're more likely to fight it. Yeah, because they don't have a per tax per vote subsidy. And so follow the money is always my argument in this. Yeah if you find it.

SPEAKER_04 55:29

I hear that more more times than on follow the money.

SPEAKER_06 55:31

And it used to be that everyone who was in government was uh rich. I hate to say it, but it was the it was the wealthier class that was elected as MPs.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Of course.

SPEAKER_06 55:43

So they didn't need the money very much.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 55:46

And they were doing this as a public service.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

Or status.

SPEAKER_06 55:49

Or status. A status, very important part of it.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 55:52

That has changed. We have a and the way our government's run, we don't have time today to get into that. We're way over time now.

SPEAKER_05 55:57

You're gonna have to come back in the fall. Because I I got we've got more to ask you, but we do have to get you together. We have to get you out of here.

SPEAKER_06 56:03

And and I I think that part of the problem here is that we've forgotten why those who get elected are elected. They're elected for the public good, not just and because governments, you know, MPs have very little say. The cabinet has very little say. Things are run from the top down now. And I think, you know, we watched Stephen Gibo walk away.

SPEAKER_02 56:29

Right.

SPEAKER_06 56:29

That was very unusual, but also a very brave thing to do. If your government is no longer supporting the one thing you ran on, on the environment.

SPEAKER_05 56:37

Yeah, yeah, it's um left car.

SPEAKER_06 56:41

He left the cabinet, and that would cost him money. That cost him status, cost him a lot of things. People think, oh, well, you know, how big a deal is that? It was a big deal.

SPEAKER_05 56:48

It is, yeah. Because you start seeing those dollar signs too, like you were talking about earlier. He's now in a wealth system like everybody else, and you don't want to leave a wealth system once you get in there.

SPEAKER_06 56:58

You know, we gotta stay long enough to get our pension. How many times have I heard that?

SPEAKER_02 57:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:03

And so I'm I I actually love the fact that regular people get into the House of Commons, but uh I I worry that they can no longer talk about the general good that they take.

SPEAKER_00 57:15

It is tough. I mean, I I I firmly believe that like Jack Leighton is probably the last time that you know people who we would never see get elected got elected.

SPEAKER_02 57:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

And you know, like they had that that young 19-year-old woman who won because they just literally there was an orange crush going through in 2008. She was down in Las Vegas, and like she she yeah, she was in Vegas like they they they threw her name on a ballot in like in Quebec and she won. Now, kudos to her. She actually won an election after that. She worked very hard. She worked very hard and everything, but I mean, we're just not seeing that anymore. We're seeing people who are being handpicked a lot of times, and it's like, you know, I don't know. It it this is kind of we're sounding cynical.

SPEAKER_06 57:53

Let's let's end on a very positive note. We can make changes, and we have more power as voters than we think.

SPEAKER_00 58:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 58:01

Never give that up. The minute you give up the choice, uh the the right to vote, you let someone else choose for you. Don't let anybody else choose for you. We saw it.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

We saw it this year where people protested about a cut and it got reversed. We do have the power, and I will say this that we need to push harder. We do need to push harder on things.

SPEAKER_05 58:20

We need to push harder and rally on things, and I'm But we need to know what we want, we need to agree on things better.

SPEAKER_00 58:24

But you know, Maritimers. Maritimers historically, like I met my wife 16 years ago, and Quebecers love to protest. I actually think they like to protest a little too much. But we are on the other side of that where we don't do it enough. We just are complacent, right? And I really feel that we need to be more of that. We can make change and we can demand it. And that I think is the positive thing of all this, is that we as much as people like to throw around dictator nonsense all around, I hate that because we don't live in a dictatorship. We've never had a dictator in any leader in any capacity whatsoever. You're just

Taking Back Power As Voters

SPEAKER_00 59:02

ruining the word when you say it. But we do have people that obviously have agendas, but you know what? We can force them into things. We can. The minute they are afraid of a losing election, if they are afraid of Owl's head.

SPEAKER_06 59:14

Think of that.

SPEAKER_00 59:15

Owl's head, all these things.

SPEAKER_06 59:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:17

Right?

SPEAKER_06 59:18

People this man wants to end this.

SPEAKER_05 59:20

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_06 59:21

I just but he knows we're out of time.

SPEAKER_05 59:23

No, I I just do want to get to our ten questions, Matt. So I just want to read this quick note by David Suzuki about your book. I think it's pretty cool. David Suzuki gave you a review. Storing the Ballot Box offers important insights into how we can fix our broken electoral structure so every Canadian's voice is heard. That sounds lovely. Check this out. Joe and Robert, store in the ballot box, an insider's guide to a voting revolution. So we're going to get into our 10 questions now.

SPEAKER_03 59:47

Oh, oh, right. This is a silly part of our show. Yes, I love this.

SPEAKER_05 59:51

No, the questions did not come to me for whatever reason, but you you you go ahead. Uh I might jump in and I'll give make up some questions as I go, maybe. You you do the first one and I'll jump in with a few.

SPEAKER_00 59:59

All right. Uh all right. I'll I'll since I will we'll stick with something funny here, but uh, you know what? I'll go with the philosophical question I said I'd ask you. So we were talking about money and taxes. Is money even real?

SPEAKER_06 1:00:15

No. No, it really isn't. We have made it real. But when I ask you what makes you happy, I bet you're not gonna name something that costs money.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:25

Fair. Okay, my question, you ready? Is a hot dog a sandwich?

SPEAKER_06 1:00:29

No. Definitely not?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:31

You sure about that? You're confident. Very confident. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:36

Why? Well, because a hot dog, the actual dog itself, can be cut up and put in mac and cheese. Okay, okay, I'm not gonna fight this one in.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

I wave the flag on that one. Moving on. That's fine. Uh so okay. Is a zombie still responsible

Ten Questions And Final Advice

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

for paying taxes?

SPEAKER_06 1:00:59

Death taxes. Death taxes. I think a zombie has to pay death taxes. Okay. Okay. Yeah, no, not really. I I think, you know, once you become a zombie, you shouldn't have to pay taxes. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:11

As long as they make less than $200,000.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:12

$2,000 a year. And they paid their death taxes when they went to the city. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:18

If you had to have lunch with a current political leader right now, tomorrow, which one would you choose and why? Good question.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:25

Oh, good question. You know what? I'd kind of like to have lunch with Mark Kearney.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:32

Because I I can have lunch with Elizabeth May anytime. So quite honestly, I couldn't stomach anything if I was eating with Pierre Polyev. So I actually, Mark Kearney and I, I I think he's an interesting guy. I'd like to talk to him about hockey, which I like to talk about. And, you know, yeah, Mark, kind of.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:51

That being said, though, I would have a good job. If Elizabeth is ever in Halifax, tell her. I'll get tell her. We'd love to sit down with her.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:57

Okay, she's so much fun. She's actually funny. Yeah. She goes on 22 minutes all the time. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:03

Okay. If you could pause time, a moment in time, and you could actually like live that moment again. What moment in time would you like to experience more?

SPEAKER_06 1:02:16

I can't rewrite it though. I have to actually live the moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:19

This is more about re experiencing a moment and really like kind of living in it, basking in it again.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:28

I have four kids, so I can't say the birth of one of them.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:31

That's fair.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:32

Okay, but I've only got one husband. So the day I laid eyes on that man. Okay. I want to relive that. Because that was like, who are you? And I am going to make you mine.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:42

Oh my god. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:43

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:45

That's a great answer.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:46

Awesome answer. 10 out of 10. 10 out of 10. I'm going to make up another one. And this is not not nothing to do with your political views at all. This is a fun philosophical question. Socialism, your take. What's the good and the bad of it on a high level? One good thing and one bad thing about socialism.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:03

Socialism for me is that we make sure that those who don't have have. And what's wrong with it is we turned it into, we made socialism in North America equate communism almost. That it became a bad word. But I think there's a lot to be said for socialism.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:23

Great answer. You're good at this.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:25

Yeah, I'm trying to throw a curveball and she's just if nobody sees an embarrassing moment, is it still embarrassing?

SPEAKER_06 1:03:32

No. No, it's not embarrassing. If I put my nose on the highway and you don't see me, that was not embarrassing. You know? I managed to throw the pants in the talk about the green party. Yeah. If I throw my pants in the washing machine after a leak, you know, you never knew. Okay, no.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:52

Okay. Book, TV, show, or movie, you can give us just something you've seen or reviewed or read. It can be from any walk of life, by the entertainment purposes or just something you found super interesting you think other people should check out. Just something you've enjoyed.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:05

Have you seen Little Lorraine? Like if you haven't, that is the most amazing movie. Yeah. Okay, it's a song by Adam Baldwin. The Lighthouse at Little Lorraine. And I loved the song.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:16

No, we did the AFC film with Red Record last year. I love that movie. That was before it actually got super big. Right?

SPEAKER_06 1:04:25

It was uh Okay, so like that's my choice.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:28

Amazing answer. Yeah. That's great. And a great picture. A great picture.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:31

And if you haven't seen it, I insist everyone go see it.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:33

And Adam Baldwin's pretty fun to watch live as well.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:36

Oh my gosh. He is so outrageous. Anyway, I sat with his mother once, and I don't even know his mother. I was down at the Seahorse, and he was performing or the marquee, you know. Yeah. And and I went to see someone else. I think Adam was there playing. It was during the Juno's. Right on. And uh I was sitting next to this woman. I was like, this guy's amazing. Who is he? You know? And she goes, I'm his mother.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:01

That's crazy. Alright, so two more questions, one each. So I got the last one. So I'm gonna so if Earth got a report card from the universe, what grade do you think we'd get?

SPEAKER_06 1:05:13

Okay, I think we'd get a D minus. What in the heck are you guys doing using every resource I've given you? Like, honest to goodness, you're supposed to save some for a rainy day, and we haven't, but we haven't quite failed yet.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:24

Great job on scooters, though. They're a lot of fun to ride.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:29

And I like hot dogs.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:31

And the hot dogs are genius, guys. Yeah. Other than that, you guys. Yeah, you came up with that one. Do you get intent? Question number 10, man. Okay, question number 10. I like this what uh Matt Matt has here. Uh if the Green Party could choose a theme song, what do you think it would be? Oh god. Theme song for the Green Party.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:50

Green party. Uh uh. Green party theme song. It would have to be by Taylor Swift.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:04

Oh. You're gonna lose my vote.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:07

Uh but I don't know enough song of her song, so it can't be by her because I'm another generation.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:11

Well, who wrote Let It Be?

SPEAKER_06 1:06:12

Well, no, you know what it would be? What? It would be Jackson Brown.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:16

Jackson Brown. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:18

Running on empty.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:19

Oh. Oh, there you go.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:20

That's what we would do.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:21

Right on.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:22

Take it, take me to the highway, show me the sun.

unknown 1:06:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:27

Love it. Great answers all around. Thank you so much for playing our little game there.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:30

So we're gonna do last call. You want me to do it? Go ahead. Okay, so last call is uh we asked the same question to everybody, and that is what is one piece of advice that you were given in your lifetime that you'd like to share with us?

SPEAKER_06 1:06:49

You have to treat other people the way you want them to treat you. The golden rule. The golden rule. I mean, I I was raised to believe it, and I to this day, if I see somebody I'm about to walk by, I think if that was you, would you walk by?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:04

Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful answer. So cheers to you around.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:08

This has been an awesome episode of the conversation. Yeah, we we there's lots we left on the table, but we can do this again.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:14

I think you should come back for a point number two. Uh I mean, you know, you'd be a great person to have on right before or right around election time. I think you're gonna be back for that. A really good election guest. Yeah, we'll chew them all up. Election time guest because you're you're very transparent. I appreciate that. So cheers to you. Cheers. Thank you so much. Have a nice one.