Inside BrainStim: A Halifax Clinic Using Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation to treat PTSD

A sci fi looking “helmet” that helps veterans sleep, feel calmer, and reconnect with their families sounds too good to be true, so we went to Brainstim Clinic in Halifax, which just celebrated its One year Anniversary to get a better understanding of the technology and ask many questions. 

Richard Pucci, a Canadian veteran and former senior leader in the Canadian Armed Forces Health Services, unpacks what veterans are dealing with after release: stalled access to care, long waits, medication overload, and the grind of PTSD, anxiety, depression, and chronic pain. 

Richard walks us through transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) in plain language, including what “interventional psychiatry” means, why the treatment is non-invasive, and what an accelerated five day protocol looks like in real life. We talk about the motor threshold test, why many patients find sessions more tolerable than expected, and why the time between sessions can matter just as much, when veterans sit together and compare notes in a space built for trust. 

We also zoom out to the Canadian health policy side: why TMS is often user pay for civilians, how Veterans Affairs Canada coverage works for eligible veterans, and what it would take to treat TMS like preventative mental health care instead of a last resort. Richard shares where the clinic is expanding, how new protocols are emerging, and why research and ethics are non-negotiable as Brainstim studies outcomes like PTSD and chronic pain reduction.

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Transcript

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Welcome to Brainstim

SPEAKER_03 0:14

Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. And welcome to the afternoon point. I'm Mike Tobin. I am Matt Conrad. And Matt, what happened? What this isn't a pub. This is not a pub. Where are we today? We're at Brainstem. Maybe our guests could help tell us where we are. What happened?

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Yeah, where are we today and who are we with? My name is Richard Poochie. I'm a veteran. I served uh 32 glorious years in uniform, thoroughly enjoyed my career. I invited you guys to come by today because I think it was a this is a great location, the Brainstem Clinic here in Halifax to hold this podcast. And we opened up about a year ago, and tomorrow's our first anniversary, and I thought it was appropriate to bring you guys here and we can have a brief discussion about what brought me to this stage of my life.

SPEAKER_04 1:00

Yeah. And and yeah, we'll we will take some some video as we walk through here and we'll put up on socials and stuff. But yeah, I'm excited to hear you know a lot about what goes on here. I did a little bit of research myself, but it seems like you're helping a lot of people, so excited to kind of dive in.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

So you spent three decades in the military, is that right? Three decades plus two years. Wow. Yeah, yeah. 32 years. I joined late before I joined the military. Believe it or not, I was a geologist. I was working up in northern northern Canada. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

Where was the pivot?

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Was it uh well the pivot was my my dad had a big influence because he served 35 years in the army as well. He served in the Second World War, served in Korea, and uh he always wanted his his uh youngest son to be in the military. So I I started the process when I was 29 years old. I was living up in northern Canada, about uh 32 miles south of the Arctic Circle. And I filed my application, and a year later I was uh I found myself in uniform.

SPEAKER_05 1:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

And it's been nonstop.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

So those so many years later, because we're gonna talk about brainstem today, I think primarily like did you yourself encounter barriers when seeking mental health? Is that what started this kind of quest? Or did you see friends suffering or or or what what was the what was the drive to go from the Yeah, well, I I was in the health services in the military.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

So we need to start that story first. Yes, yeah, sure. So so I I started off working as what was called a health services officer. That was my career path. And I served at the tactical level, the operational level, and the strategic level uh throughout my career, had several deployments uh during that time frame. So I'm a healthcare executive. And so I ended up my career in 2016 as a deputy commander of the Canadian Armed Forces Health Services, which was a phenomenal job because I was responsible for the day-to-day operations of clinics across Canada, support to

From Geologist To Military Leader

SPEAKER_00 2:54

the Navy, support to the Air Force and operations because you know Afghanistan was still going on at that time. And so when I retired, I wanted to maintain what I was doing from a healthcare perspective about access to care. And that's one of the biggest challenges veterans have is lack of access to care. You talk to any veteran, read, pick up a newspaper, listen to a other podcast, and veterans are complaining that they don't have access to good quality care, whether it's primary care or whether it's mental health care, which is why we're here today. So when I first retired, I got into the cannabis world. Okay, that was even prior to legalization in 2018. I was working for a very small company out of Alberta. And my goal was to, you know, educate veterans on cannabis, the do's and don'ts, because most veterans, when they start the cannabis therapy, they're they're sent a box of uh 30 grams of weed and have a good day, guys. You know, there's you know, there's no instructions. And so that was my mandate was to get out there and educate uh veterans on the the medical cannabis side of the house.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Aaron Powell When did the military come around on using cannabis for like any type of treatment?

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Well, I don't think the military ever came around. Veterans did, right? VAC and VAC came around. Fair enough. Okay. So so I think because I only want to speak to VAC, I don't want to speak about protocols and processes and the CAF. But VAC came around some time ago. You know, like even before 2018, you know, veterans were getting access to cannabis. It was through special request, of course, at the time. Yeah, I remember this. Yeah, but now it's it's it's like uh you know, you know, it's easy access through, you know, you it it's not as hard to get the cannabis approval as it was 15, 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_04 4:38

Yeah, and it's it's just it honestly just kind of felt like that like the veterans really kind of embraced that and were a little bit ahead of the their time, I guess. Right before other doctors who were even really embracing it, like outside of military use.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah, absolutely. Like most veterans nowadays, you know, uh you know, they they look at cannabis as as an active treatment for their PTSD symptoms, their anxiety, their depression. A lot of cannabis is used for for sleep because one of the biggest issues facing veterans is sleep. I can't get any sleep. Like the morning I flew here, I was up all night. I couldn't sleep. You know, I just couldn't get a good night's sleep. So I just got up at two o'clock in the morning, had coffee, made breakfast, and headed out to the airport.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Why do you think that is like when you think veterans just can't get any sleep? Do you think it's all related to PTSD, or do you think it's related to an array of reasons?

SPEAKER_00 5:27

So I think it's it's kind of a holistic approach. Of course, it's the PTSD, the anxiety, the depression, but it could be other factors in their lives that uh are underlying.

SPEAKER_04 5:37

Anything to do with the training? Because I mean, like I spent three years in the Army Reserve and I remember like yeah, like I mean, I was young enough, I was a late teenager, right? Almost like but so it was fine back at that point.

SPEAKER_05 5:50

Right.

SPEAKER_04 5:50

But you know, they they do drills and like training and where you you know you're work they wake you up from two to three to you know do perimeters and all this other stuff. So you're like always on. Like I wonder if that's kind of a sum of it either. Yeah, part of it too.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

You know, I like I look back on my training. My training took place in 1985, believe it or not. And I know I look a lot younger than my my chronological age, but it it was hard. Like it was, you know, the army was the military was different back in the 80s and the 70s and 60s. It's it's a generational thing, right?

SPEAKER_04 6:23

100%.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

And I'm not going to talk about what the army looks like today or the Navy or the Air Force. It's not my partship because I'm I'm no longer serving. But when I reflect back on my career, it it was it was a very, you know, strictly run regimental capability. You know, it's it's you do this, you do that, you go right, and you go left, and you're you're told when you know the old expression in the army is great coats on, great coats off. You know, it's just the way it was. And it was very stressful, you know, and a lot of a lot of candidates there. We were officer cadets at the time, and I I would say the dropout rate was about 20, 20 percent. Yeah. 20 percent. It was demanding, you know, yelling, constantly yelling at you, you know, at times physically you know, not abusive, but you know, it was aggressive, aggressive training. Yeah, aggressive training.

SPEAKER_04 7:11

I I know like I so I joined in 2001 and I even I then they were talking about how different the military was, you know, just 15, 20 years prior to that. Absolutely. And even then I kind of I think back now when I put my 2026 brain on and I think about some of the things that were said to people, and I was kind of, ooh, yeah, we can get away with that today.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

No, absolutely not. Like, you know, I I could you know huge stories. And at the time they were they were very at times traumatic, but uh I reflect back and it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_04 7:42

You know I love my time in the military. But some people watched Full Metal Jacket a little bit too many times.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Yeah, absolutely. But uh no, if if if you asked me, would I do it again? Of course I'd do it again. Yeah. I'd probably be younger. I'd want to join when I was, you know, when you joined at 18, 19 years old. I was 28, turning 29. Like I was the old man in the platoon, you know. Right.

Cannabis Education And The Sleep Crisis

SPEAKER_00 8:04

And and when I got to my unit, uh, which is was in Calgary, which no longer exists, had one brigade. You know, I was I was kind of the oldest guy in the whole unit, you know, because everybody was so much younger. And that was a challenge too, because I had been, you know, I was a geologist, I'd worked in the field, I'd spent a lot of time in harsh conditions. And here I am in the military now and different training ethos. We were training for war. This is when the Warsaw Pact was still in place. It was prior to the Berlin Wall coming down. Remember that? And you know, I remember I was flown to Europe for a what was called Folex, and it was the time when Gorbachev met with Reagan in Iceland. And and I remember we were flying that day from Calgary into Lar, and and the the talks broke off. And we thought, fuck, we're going to war. We're going to war, guys. Yeah. So there was a lot of tension back then. And uh, you know, when I was a kid, we still had uh we used to sit under uh Heidner desktops from uh Nuclear Fallout, right? This is back in the 60s, the Cuban Missile Crisis, right? Yeah, and that was pretty wild. And you know, uh it was uh it's a generational thing. And you look at what's the what's facing the generation today, there's so many things facing the generations today.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Yeah, I mean uh certainly I mean the military culture has changed a little, but I mean people are still coming back with traumas, that's for sure. I mean I mean, and that's that's something that's not gonna get better probably ever as long as there's war as a is a grim reality.

SPEAKER_04 9:36

Yeah, but that's that that's something that is hard to change about the military. Like what what we can control and what has changed is how the training gets done.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

And still I mean the more so like when they get out is still an issue, right? Which is what we're that's why we're here.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Yeah, that's why you guys are here. And it's it you know, it goes back to that little line I said, access to care. You know, that was what kind of my personal mantra when I retired was access to care. So we started off with cannabis, and then I went into I stood up a company for with psilocybin. We were looking at it was called cannabis 2.0, right? Because we had that big bubble with the cannabis world where you know there were companies out there making trillions of dollars off the sale of cannabis, and then poof, the the the floor fell out. Right. And then everybody kind of transitioned over to psilocybin and and psychedelics. So I I did a paper company with a a colleague, a former colleague who was a psychiatrist, and we put together this, it was more or less a an academic exercise looking at the the impact that psilocybin would have on veterans. And if you pick up the newspaper today, you know, there's a lot of work and a lot of effort going on about various modalities of psychedelic therapy that are very useful for veterans. It's not my area of expertise, I don't want to really give a lot, but there's a lot of veterans out there working

Access To Care After Service

SPEAKER_00 11:21

very hard to get this capability to to veterans. But, you know, we do we do use ketamine here in our clinic here at all our clinics across Canada, which is which is you know still classified according to Health Canada as a psychedelic.

SPEAKER_04 11:36

We We kind of had a we had a guest in our first season, Tim Brody, so obviously you know Tim quite well. But it sounds he told a story in that podcast. People go back and listen to it, but I'll just use a reference. And it sounds like this is what you guys are doing here. He talked about the indigenous folk combing the snakes out of their hair when they came back from like battle. Right. And it sounds like that's really what you're trying to achieve here for people is combing the snakes out of their hair.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Yeah, I I met Tim. You know, Tim, Tim's a great guy. He was one of the first um individuals I met here in Halifax before we even stood up this clinic. I was intro introduced to Tim, and as a matter of fact, he's the one that told me I should get on this show.

SPEAKER_04 12:16

Yes, that's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

That's uh so that you know it's we've come full circle here. And we Tim comes to this clinic with clients. So Tim's a great guy. He's a former I bug him about this a lot. He was a logistics officer. Yeah, yeah, that's okay. But so but Tim, uh, you know, we're we're all put we're all part of that, you know, conglomerate of people that just want to help veterans. Right. That's all we want to do. And and there are so many of us out there that want to help veterans. And in the city of Ottawa, I live in Ottawa, and the city of Ottawa, the mayor's office, has what's called a veterans task force that he oversees. And we have three pillars of care. One is education, one is employment, two is homelessness, and three is health care. Okay. And what we did is, and and it it's it's it's got a large following because you know, we we kind of we the the city does a good job marketing what we do, and they kind of leverage us. And we go to a lot of events on the hill in Ottawa, and we meet a lot of politicians and et cetera, et cetera. But what we did is about uh six months ago, we we had a meeting where we brought in a room full of providers that look after veterans. And we said, well, what do we need to do here as a team? This is a non-com competition. There's no non-compet competition. We just want to help veterans. And so we've come up with this strategy that's still under development right now in Ottawa. And I think it's something that we want to be able to go to any municipality across the country and say, here's the blueprint about how to better care for veterans. Yes. It's as simple as that. I I love I love it.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

I I mean, I really think, you know, uh whether it's psychedelic therapy, I don't know enough about the therapies to speak on them, right? You know, and I mean I understand someone can be controversial when you start talking about drugs into the equation. And just that's just a reality, but that's no different from any drugs we take, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:17

But uh well as long as it's you know it's gotta be controlled under under you know clinical supervision. Right. I think that's the critical phase here. It's got to be under clinical supervision. And and that's why brainstem, you know, because we work under the guidance of Veterans Affairs Canada through their their their pearls of wisdom on treatment. And uh we have to have a psychiatrist in the clinic while there's treatment ongoing. So at the end of the day, we're we're we're a psychiatry-led organization. You know, it's not a bunch of voodoo medicine going on here. You know, we've we've got we've got psychiatrists that come into the office here to the clinic every day. And as long as there's one veteran in the clinic, there has to be a psychiatrist, right? So that's that's we're psychiatry-led, we're interventional psychiatry. You know, we don't deal with first-line psychiatry here, we're interventional. So patients are either referred to us.

SPEAKER_03 15:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yeah, they're they're referred to us. So you can refer it yourself online. A veteran can send me an email, and then we get the we have a navigation team in Vancouver, and they help guide the veteran from start to finish, right? They do the onboarding process, they set up a psychiatric assessment with one of our psychiatrists, and then we go to VAC for approval. And the key here is that a veteran has to present with a VAC disability

What TMS Is And Is Not

SPEAKER_00 15:41

award for PTSD, anxiety, depression, and chronic pain, or all one of the three. And we go to VAC and VAC comes back with the approval process. And we've been extremely successful because we follow their guidelines. Right. So, you know, I I don't think we've had any, you know, no shows or nil returns from VAC.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

From the veteran perspective, like how many people are open to this type of therapy and how many other people like think it's just getting high or just you know, uh too experimental and they're scared of you know going to a going to a machine for assistance? Like what yeah, how do you feel like people feel about that when you when these are I'm just gonna give you my perspective on that?

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Yeah. Yeah. So so from a clinical perspective, you know, that's when you go through the onboarding process with our team, the psychiatrist sits down with a veteran and they go through all of those questions because every veteran has a thousand questions. Because one thing about veterans, they're very well informed when it comes to their own health care, right? They they they want to make sure that if they're if if they're going to see provider A or B that they're getting the the real meal deal here, right? So but the the the outcomes are are quite amazing because what I do in Ottawa, because I, you know, there's a clinic in Ottawa, I meet with the veterans on the first day of the program, and then I drop by on the fifth day, which is the final day of the program. And the changes are just amazing. But before that, to answer the question, because I was gonna go down another path here, is that TMS has been around for 40 years. Like it's not something that was invented six months ago or two years ago. And and to people that don't know what TMS is, what's that acronym? TMS stands for transcranial magnetic stimulation. Right. And there are two types. There's the big scary word. Yeah, it is a yeah, it's it's it's a mouthful. Yeah. You know, transcranial magnetic stimulation. And people get a little bit freaky about that. Well, you saw the machine. Yes. Yeah. So, you know, when I show you the coil and it looks like something out of sci-fi. Yeah, exactly. Right.

SPEAKER_03 17:47

So it stays on uh before the uh clinician can do their work. Yeah, it's it's quite intimidating looking.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

It is intimidating, but at the end of the day, you know, you'll find that a lot of veterans, when they're going through the protocol, they fall asleep while the the uh the TMS is running.

SPEAKER_05 18:00

Oh yeah, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

So we'll talk about that in a second. But but I I think if you look at the data out there, the data is very impressive about outcomes, wellness outcomes. And one of the most what makes me happy a as a veteran in the healthcare space is that I find that if you talk to a veteran on the fifth day, they'll say, I feel happy. Something's changed in my life. Okay, and I don't know, they can't explain it. But they say, talk to my wife and she'll explain it to you because there's a lot of anecdotal evidence out there, and there's I got I could give you sit here for an hour and talk about testimonials, but you guys don't want to hear that. What I want to tell you is that the testimonials will what they say is that I feel better, my PTSD is down, I'm sleeping, I'm happier, my wife loves me, my husband loves me, and I feel more comfortable in my life. And that's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_04 18:59

Is this something that like would h like in your experience there? Like, have you seen it that like it's something that needs to be ongoing? Is it like you know, every six months that someone needs to kind of like check in to kind of like do you see permanent effects or do you see something where it's like, yeah, you need a bit of a check-in once in a while?

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah, that that's a great question. It's all about sustainability, right? Yeah. And so what it is is that it's a five-day accelerated program where you come in on a Monday morning, and of course you're seen by the psychiatrist, and that's mandatory. So so what happens is you get five to six treatments over the course of the six hours you're here at the clinic. So you come in, you get set up, you meet, you met Ilian, he's our senior TMS transcranial magnetic stimulation technician, real smart guy, and he's got a neuroscience background. Most of our technicians all have neurobiology or neurosciences behind their names. So these are these are really big brain people and they know a lot about the brain and how it works. So you you come in, you get a briefing from the team, and the first session you go in, you get the cap put on. It take takes about 20 minutes to get everything situated. And then the the treatment lasts 9.9 minutes and 30 seconds. Oh, wow. Short. Okay. Yeah. So you you go in there, you sit down. Like it looks intimidating in there, but it's really not. It's quite relaxing.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Does it feel like 35 years to the patient or something weird?

SPEAKER_00 20:20

No, because some guys, some guys and gals fall asleep, right? Okay, yeah. Yeah, they'll doze off. And some people listen, we we play music in the background, like kind of zen music, and uh it's very, you know, very zen environment, which makes it relaxes the individual. So after nine and nine minutes and thirty-some seconds, you go back out into you remember I showed you the group room, well, veterans will go gather there. And that's where a lot of the healing is done because veterans talk to each other, right? Right. So they kind of have that exchange of of, you know, where did you serve? When did you go to Afghanistan? Where were you when were you in Kosovo or Haiti or something like that? And it and it builds bridges and bonds between veterans.

SPEAKER_03 20:59

Aaron Powell, so when I'm getting this helmet put on my head, and I mean I'm not expecting you to explain to me on a high scientific level every single thing that's happening, but what's happening, I guess, on a high level? What were these magnets like how are they how are they changing my patterns of thought or creating pathways or whatever they're doing?

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Yeah, it's uh well, that's that that that's a good question. I know it's a tough question. It's a tough question for me because I don't I don't want to give you any diff disinformation, sure. But I can give you the the non-sci the non-clinician perspective. Yeah, thank you is that it it targets aspects of the brain that impact the aspects of the brain that influence PTSD, anxiety, depression. Okay. So it's a matter of rewiring the brain in a non-invasive manner. Okay. Non-invasive. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:45

There's there's nothing like digging into someone's brain, kind of exactly.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

And that's a critical piece, and there's no drugs involved, there's

The Five Day Accelerated Protocol

SPEAKER_00 21:51

no medication, right? So it is what it is. Nine nine minutes, thirty seconds, you finish that off, and then you go have a 60-minute break. Gives the chance for the brain to resettle. And and then what happens is that you go have coffee, you meet with the other veterans, you're bullshitting the way bull you know, veterans do, and then you're called back in again.

SPEAKER_04 22:14

The so like is it and you may and you can tell me your if you can answer this or not, but like is it where they're actually like it going into like the amygdala? Because I because amygula is the thing that you know your fight and flight part of your brain.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Oh, so scot, because the amygdala is deep. Yeah, it's deep. That way. Okay. Okay. It doesn't go in there. No, it it once it gets into that level, then it starts to stimulate the stimulus that impacts the brain. Interesting. Yeah. So that's that non-invasive perspective. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 23:00

Because this is something that we see a lot in the military, is like that macho kind of like I'm fine type of thing. And you're you're kind of programmed to just be tough, right? And is this like do you really feel like you're trying to like give people also an opportunity to just like it's okay to not be tough?

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Yeah. Okay. I I really do. Yeah. Like I've never met any like in Ottawa, I see a lot of softcom guys, special forces guys that have been through a lot of things. And you know, these are these are great guys. I really love these guys because, you know, they're like you and me sitting down, you know, we're having this discussion. And I I don't see that at all. No. Like, you know, they they just want to get well. Yeah, they just want to go home tonight, see their family, and and have a great night, enjoy their life. And that's that's what we want. That's what we expect out of our, you know, that's what we should be promoting as a veteran retires. Is when once you're retired, have a good life. If you're not well, come see, go go get help.

SPEAKER_04 24:06

Yeah, I mean, we're sending uh many of these folks into horrible conditions, you know, to do things that are not ideal, obviously. Like they can be quite quite traumatizing. So yeah, we we should obviously want to do everything we can to help them. Back to the helmets, because I'm still kind of caught up in the helmet.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Let's talk about lunch. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

But like so, so I I think when I put put this on, like, how does this I mean I and I I am understanding what you're saying about how how this changes kind of patterns in the brain or isolates patterns in the brain and and and and really stops them or starts them to some respect. Is that but you know, how is that different from just taking a medication?

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Wow. That's uh that's a good question for a clinician. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

No, and I guess I guess why I'm asking is like, you know, is one better or one, you know, one like you know, it's so challenging to me to kind of understand why, you know, is it would I mean there's anti-ax anti-anxiety medications, there's anti-depression medications, and I mean let me ask this in a non-clinical perspective that's safe. I mean, because we none of us want to get sued today. So, so but like I I guess a safe way to ask this is like if I was trying other things and they weren't working for me personally from a from a depression state or an anxiety state or something, is this something that other people have explored that if if they have found a guiding light through this type of therapy? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Yeah. Yeah. You'll you'll find that most veterans want to get off medications. Okay. Like not a few, all.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

And why do they want to get off medications?

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Because they're horrible. Yeah. They they just they just you know, do they feel like they're sucking the light out of you?

Veteran Bonding Between Sessions

SPEAKER_00 25:41

They suck everything out of you. Yes. They they they suck everything. You know, some of these veterans are on 10, 12 medications a day, and you go, wow.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

Well, yeah. Yeah, and I mean that's the thing. As you get older, I mean these medications start to stack. So you need one to get you up in the morning, you need one to put you down. In the morning, you need one in between. And all of a sudden you're you're basically living.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

You're a zombie pills. Yeah. You're a zombie, you have no life. I've been there, you know, I've been through that stage of my life many years ago. Okay. And when I talk to veterans, you know, they go, I just want to get off the medications. You know, I'm on so many medications per day. Right. And and the this this is a path through TMS, through Brainstem, where we help, you know, kind of wean patients. It's their choice, right? It's their own. You know, if I'm a veteran, come here. You don't freaking tell me I can't do this or do that.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

So people are coming to your doorstep at times because they've had enough.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

But there's no other course of action. They they look at this as kind of like the last resort. You know, I've tried this, doc. This is them talking to her psychiatrist, doc. I've tried this, I've tried that. I've been on X amount of medications, I've done this, I've done psychotherapy, I've stood on my head in the the the cold. I've done the cold plunge. Yeah, yeah. Like you talk to veterans, they'll do anything to feel well because it's not only the um the the psychological and the mental health, it's your physical well-being. You just don't feel well. And and veterans that are listening, they know what I'm talking about. You just don't feel well. You feel like you've, you know, I f I felt for years I had a chronic flu. You know, you know, I was just, you know, I just felt ill all the time.

SPEAKER_04 27:14

It was i i it's funny. I actually saw a clip. There's a popular online doctor, Dr. Mike, in from the US. Uh, he's everywhere right now. And I actually really, you know, I really appreciate the stuff that he says. But he was talking to he was on someone's podcast, and the guy was really pushing a question that I think is an interesting, good question to ask and explore, and that is when people are really looking for answers for whatever illness it may be, you know, why is there such resistance to letting people try things that are experimental, even though they may not have even been fully tested? But if they're willing to sign off and say, like, yeah, I want to try this. I just want to try something that it's a huge question that we have in our society.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

It it's an ethical decision, right? It's all it it boils down to ethics and and it's risk adverse. You know, a lot of people are risk-adverse. They they just and this is why a lot of veterans, when they first come to Brain Stim, they have those questions like why the why why should I go to BrainStim? Or any other TMS provider. Right. It doesn't have to be Brainstem, it could be there's other people. Wherever they can get help. Wherever they can get help. And and and this is why, like I'm the senior veteran on the team. And my goal is to make sure whatever happens in the clinic reflects in what the veterans find out about. Right. So that when a veteran veterans trust veterans, right? So I'm on the team. So what I try to do, what not what I try, what I do is I write to all the veterans that I know that are being on board and just to introduce myself, say I'm a veteran, served 32 years. If you have any questions, you know, DM me.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

Have you been through the therapy yourself?

SPEAKER_00 28:57

No, because by the way, when I joined the team, that's a great question. I've I've tried the therapy because, but at the end of the day, VAC would never approve me because I'm no longer acute. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So if my file went to VAC, they'd say, you know, I wouldn't even make it past their psychiatrist. Oh, right. Because he'd say, no, you you you're you're not a good candidate for TMS. Yeah. But I've gone through the process. I've done the training. Okay. I did the uh the the training, which was uh phenomenal, gave me a lot of background knowledge on you know the you know what what neuroplasticity is all about, learned about interventional psychiatry, and but I just don't want to I don't want to touch patients. No, no, that's you know, I just it's not part of me. That's why I never went to medical.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

Do you have any like kind of close contacts that have been through this? Absolutely. And and and like how how are they how are they doing years later or months later? I mean, what's your what's your kind of insights? Uh if somebody that you keep regular tabs on?

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Yeah, well, I I keep in touch with a lot of the veterans that have been through the program. It's nothing but positive feedback from them. Yeah. But you know, some have been challenged. Let's let's be honest. You know, I'm sure I don't expect it to work for everybody all the time. It doesn't work like any other medical procedure, right? It doesn't work for everybody. But I would say, you know, 95% plus are coming back with positive returns. And this and the sustainability, like you know, uh VAC will approve up to 90 sessions per calendar year for a veteran. That's a lot of sessions. So for our protocol, which is approved by VAC and Health Canada, for an accelerated program, we do 30 in-house on the first week. Okay, and then we keep 28 for what's called maintenance. And they come back every two to three weeks for a day here in the clinic where they go through the process and then they go home. And then even after even after that is done, VAC will automatically you know regenerate the 90 sessions for the next calendar year.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

Is it addictive in any sense?

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Like what I feel like I need, like I mean, if you if you want to feel good, it is. Well, well, well, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:57

Well, I mean, we all want a sense of euphoria, right? So I mean that that would be a concern too.

Medications Fatigue And Last Resort Options

SPEAKER_03 31:01

If I was kind of coming back to kind of get that first hit of relief that I may have not felt in years of myself, I'd be fearful that like like heroin or something that just feels transcending. I'd want to go back and try it again.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Well, you you met Dr. Vene, our our our um CEO. Brilliant man. Yeah. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 31:18

Oh, every time he talked about something, he was like, oh, and I also did that. And I also have a degree in this.

SPEAKER_03 31:22

And it's like, holy he set off about 85 light bulbs in my mind in six minutes. A very smart man. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Like I felt like throwing in the towel and telling him to come here to the podcast. Like I felt almost embarrassing.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

Hugely impressed by what he's trying to do. Yeah. But he's very humble. He's a very humble man. And and I mean, you look a man in the eye often tell what their passions are, and it was it was a hundred percent there. Well, well, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

We we I had a vet come in this morning. Yeah, he's a veteran. He I won't discuss his name because he didn't give me permission to mention his name. Yeah. And he's been a bit of a naysayer, you know, because he comes an old school guy. Yeah, yeah. Old school. And so, you know, Mr. X came in and we we sat him down in the in the chair. We gave him one session just to know what it's like. And and so we said, Well, how do I know if this is working? And etc. etc. And so Vinay said, It's like, you know, when you go to the gym, you get pumped, right? And people are saying, Wow, I want to stay pumped. And so it's the same analogy for the TMS. I feel healthy, so I'm gonna go back and have another hit in three weeks, and I'm still gonna feel pumped. Nice. Yeah, that's the nice thing about it. And it goes back to you know, you can drive here in the morning for the TMS, and you can go home at 2 30. You you you don't need somebody to come pick you up, you know. Yeah, that's true. You know, there's there's no side effects. Okay, you some guys, you know, and you look it up in the literature, it's right in the literature. Some guys might get a mild headache, you know, but you know, take two two tile and I'll go home. Yeah, right. But that's about it. You know, it's really not.

SPEAKER_03 32:56

It's so cutting edge. I mean, a lot of people are probably listening to this for the first time and just wondering if it you could help them, probably, right? And it's so it's it's it's uh it's interesting to me. These new technologies that I mean, I know it's it's like you said it was four years old, but to me it's still like a relatively uncovered resource that people aren't noticing.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Yeah, well, you remember I showed you the there's two helmets that we have at those helmets are very pricey, as you can imagine. So I could only imagine the blue one is for what we use on veterans for for anxiety depression in that. Yeah. And then the the green one was for smoking cessation. Yeah. But every year the company Brainsway that produces the this equipment, they're coming out with new protocols. ADHD. Yeah, yeah. Parkinson. Interesting you say that.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

I mean, ADHD is such a finite or such a hard thing to measure, I think, because we all ADHD, I think there's so many even variations of it itself and how how it shows in various forms, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Like various spectrums. But it's a different helmet. Yeah. Okay. The coils, you know, that the coils I showed you, they'd be different. Yeah. You know, the the protocol's different because it hits different parts of the brain, right? So PDSDs on this side with uh depression.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

And when he says coils, it looks like something like straight out of a science fiction movie, almost a sprainy, uh big computer chair, Tron or something.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

Yeah, Tron. That's I like the tron. Yeah, yeah. Perfect. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:12

So it and and yeah, and you it's so yeah, we obviously that would help with addiction type of stuff. And and you you may not be able to even comment on this, but you m may know some of it. But because leading up to this, I was reading a little bit about the TMS. And they're starting to use it for people in comas as well, which I thought

Maintenance Sessions And Safety Concerns

SPEAKER_04 34:31

was pretty interesting because you know you might be able to like really kind of get into people's brains when they're in a coma.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Did you know that uh there are clinics in Toronto that offer TMS for people with early stages of dementia?

SPEAKER_04 34:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Yeah. So so say say you have an aging parent that's you know starting to show signs of dementia or or Alzheimer's, you can send them to this clinic and they they use a different style of coil, yeah, different protocol for helping elderly. And I think that's that's pretty uh could be amazing.

SPEAKER_03 35:05

Yeah. Right? Wouldn't you love to see the people got the few extra years that just their own?

SPEAKER_04 35:11

Well, there was there was that uh there was like I I can't remember what study that came out just like a week or two ago, but they uh they gave what was it? Uh I don't know if it was LSD or psilocybin or whatever. They gave something. No, it was mushroom, yeah, it was mushrooms. They gave psilocylocybin to like an elderly person with Alzheimer's, and for an entire day or 20 hours showed no signs of Alzheimer's. Wow. Yeah. Like they were like back to like reconnected a few wires at least for momentarily. Momentarily, yeah, yeah. Which is uh mind-blowing that stuff like this.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

Well, I think there's so much out there within the healthcare community where you know we're leading the charge, right? Yeah. And that's you know, we want to make a difference. We want we want to make a difference, and that's that's uh that's why I'm here.

SPEAKER_04 35:57

Do you guys see like I know your obviously your role is to to help veterans and and I would imagine probably like even law enforcement, there's probably some of the things that we've got to do.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

RCMP, yeah, RCMP veterans. Yeah, we see a lot of them as well.

SPEAKER_04 36:09

And but is there any like real look uh kind of hope to expand even well beyond that to offer things like addiction maybe services or anything like that?

SPEAKER_00 36:19

Well the the the the it's coverage, right? Yeah like it cut it's it's not cheap. Going through a TMS program is is is costly. But there are people that spend $80,000, $100,000 to go to to these uh these addiction treatment centers for 30 days or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03 36:37

But that's that'd be a great question that I'd love to throw in to you too. What about addiction?

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Like what about chronic alcohol addiction or chronic drug addiction to help people with that's what yeah, that's kind of there is a protocol, yeah, but we we don't use it because it's not covered under VAC, but for for for uh addiction, right? Yeah. So some clinics offer it. We we currently don't offer that, but we can provide uh advice on that. But but right now, if you're you know getting back on the veteran slope here, if if you're a veteran, you know, you would be sent to a one of the uh you know addiction centers. But but addictions is one that there's a lot of, you know, like I said, every month there's a new protocol coming out for something. But for me, I think the one it's that exciting is the the uh Parkinson and the and the early signs of dementia in the aging brain. And yeah, I think that would be that'd be a good milestone. Can you imagine that? Oh amazing.

SPEAKER_03 37:34

And do you guys treat actively for OCD here? No, we don't. No. No, no, but that's another capability of this as well. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

You know, we we're we're just focusing right now on uh on on kind of the trauma side of the house, you know, for PTSD, anxiety, depression. But if you're a like we treat non-veterans here as well. Yeah, just not veterans. Like if you want to come in here, you know, your blogging's off the street and you've got a you've had uh you were in a traffic accident, you have terrible trauma, you can come through our program. We do we see a lot of that and a lot of uh you know requests about ketamine therapy, which we run here. We're about to launch that. We're making that announcement uh tomorrow. And so that's an exciting phase. So we've started with the TMS, we're gonna launch the ketamine as next, and then we're also launching EMDR, which is another, you know, you met Dr. Vinay and his technology and his big brain over there. Yeah. I hope he's not listening, but uh and uh you know, so he wants to launch other modalities of uh of uh therapy to support not only veterans, but you know, anyway.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

Oh, that I think yeah, I mean it would be interesting to see it for anyone that would want to be able to see if they could just help themselves in a different way, right? It's pretty cool. We get a lot of queries, yeah. It's amazing. Could it make me a better basketball player?

SPEAKER_00 38:54

You think uh would it make me taller? No. No, okay. Oh well.

SPEAKER_04 38:59

Uh true it is like one thing I I guess I I forgot to really ask is like do you when you're in there, you have the helm your magneto helmet on there. Yeah, yeah, that's what it looked like. But you does do you feel anything? And are there different settings? Like, is there like oh we gotta go a little higher, or is it all just one setting?

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Well, it depends upon when you when you first go in there, they do a motor threshold test on you, which sets the standard. Motor threshold that sounds aggressive. Yeah, yeah. All it is, it's uh it's a reflex reaction. Okay. So so they stimulate that part of the brain. Okay. And then when you when you see your hand go like this, see you see how my hand's going? Yeah, yeah. It goes like that, you've you've reached the motor threshold. Right. And then the technician, Ilian, the other smart guy in the building, he's gonna set the the settings based on that.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Yeah, interesting. So they find that and then they dial it to what what the So they can see the okay Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:56

Yeah, okay. That's cool. That is, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

I thought it was skull thickness, and then you'd be in trouble, Matt, right? It's not getting through. That is a big brain. They're like, we keep turning it up, we're getting nothing. It's not a big brain, it's just a thick skull.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Yeah, but but you know, once they get that, you you're set for the five days. Wow. Yeah. So so they they they they study it there.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

And what like do you find it like if they had to go like through a second round of treatment, everything, like do they find that that changes at all? Like once you have treatment, I think it's it's it's it just stays that way. Yeah, that's your body.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

That is that is what it is. It is your threshold is your threshold.

SPEAKER_04 40:30

Your settings, yeah. Yeah, I wasn't sure if like you know, the getting the treatment may change that at all.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

And it's saved in the database, it's saved in your electronic health record. Okay. So that when you go in, so you come back, you know, for your maintenance phase, you know, we just type in your name and then everything comes up. You know, all the data points come up showing that you know, this is where we're at after day five. Here was the setting, here was the motor threshold, yeah, and so on. And we've put through 40 veterans in the last couple months, and of those 40, everybody has shown major decreases in their PTSD uh rating scale.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

I wanted us to kind of move to talk a little bit about cost and access, Matt. Yeah, because I mean for me, I mean, I like one I I like for people to have their own options. I think people should be take their own agency on this. I don't want to be advocating for anything. Yeah, it's like if you if you weigh out the pros and cons. It's like our Canadian healthcare system. Is this virtual like I mean, outside from from the veteran program that you're trying to run, it's it sounds like it'd be private pretty well. Like you'd have to invest in this yourself and it would be very expensive.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

You know, it's it's covered all provinces less UConn do not cover TMS as as a frontline treatment.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

Right. So it's it's gonna be user pay. Right. Right? That's that's the bottom line. If you're a veteran and you have a PTSD award from Veterans Affairs, it's fully covered. Yes. Okay. Yeah. There's no upfront cost.

SPEAKER_03 41:56

It makes sense that you're leading into that demographic specifically.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Yeah, I just wanted to state that because I

Cost Coverage And Canadian Health Policy

SPEAKER_00 42:01

get a lot of questions from veterans saying, Well, how much is it going to cost? How much, how much am I gonna have to pay you? You don't pay me anything, man. Yeah, you just come for the treatment and we bill VAC or we bill Medaville Blue Cross, right? Yeah, yeah. So that's the bottom line. But if you're a civilian, or even if you're a veteran without a disability award, okay, we see a lot of those that don't have a disability award or or are civilian, you can come into the clinic and and you you pay as you go. Like some parts of the treatment can be covered by the MSI. Okay, okay, and that's usually the the psych assessment would be covered, but some of the treatment parts would be covered by if you have a third-party insurance, yeah. They would cover some of that, and the rest would be out of pocket.

SPEAKER_05 42:46

Okay, right.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

And um, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:49

Our benefits are pretty good there, Mike. Are you gonna you know give it a roll? Oh, geez, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

I got a slot next. You're in next, Mike.

SPEAKER_03 42:57

Coming up next in the afternoon playing. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Mike reprograms himself. Yeah. No, no, I I mean, you know, the the the real thought for me here is like, I mean, if this works and if I mean if you could only help people that were suffering from addiction and stuff, I mean, there's just there's just a lot of hardship out there. And if you could give people a way out, I mean it would be it would be interesting to see if in the future there could be pathways to, I mean, a lot of people that are addicted to uh hard drugs or alcohol or even cigarettes, as you said, tobacco, right? You know, they don't want to be addicted. Like, you know, they do not want to do this anymore, right? I used to smoke and I I wasn't proud I smoked a day after I was 30 years old, right? When as soon as it started the moment it started affecting my health, I was like, I want off this. And you know, I I don't smoke anymore. I have smoked in years, but still, it it's a hard thing to quit. Right? It is hard for it.

SPEAKER_04 43:47

It seems like they're like it almost seems like the if we had some like if we incorporate it into the provincial healthcare system that it could act as a preventative type of health care, uh, you know, if we have people who are addicted to hard drugs, well it's hard for them to work. But if they weren't, maybe they become contrasting.

SPEAKER_03 44:06

It sounds like a Stanley Kubrick film, you know, like you know, it's like the guy's not doing so well, you put them in the uh in the seat and and and reprogram them. But but yeah, like sort of i i if if you had a if they could have agency over themselves to participate in a program to to maybe potentially get themselves out of this rut. Because you know, it's a cycle, right? Like crime or uh uh addictions or poverty, you know, it's sometimes so many people go out and then they just come right back in, sort of speak, right? They're stuck in these ruts their entire lives, and it must suck.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Yeah. If you go downtown Vancouver. You can see you can see it's a very good idea.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

So sad requirements I've watched so many videos of what's going on there right now. And I mean Halifax, we have we have that happening here as well. I mean, uh symptoms of it, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 44:50

Yeah. That's what I'm thinking, is like, you know, really it I feel like someone should be lobbying the government, whether it be federal or provincial, to like look at this as preventative health care.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

I mean, obviously reactive too, but like it should be, you know, if you talk to, you know, I'm not gonna you know mention names here because of that, but uh a lot of people feel it should be a first-line treatment option for people, right? So you go into your uh your your GP, you get a referral, you see a psychiatrist, and then they refer you into a program, you know, such as this. Yeah. Don't put somebody on 20 medications, you know, just let them get the treatment they need.

SPEAKER_04 45:28

Yeah, I think that's what I'm kind of like getting at. It's like, you know, we're gonna we're gonna pay for all the medications, like through MSI, I mean some whatever coverages and whatever. But I mean, you know, we're gonna pay for a lot of these things, these other treatments, and that's uh kind of goes back to my other question where I asked way before where it was like if people are willing to try something, like why don't we let people just try things and pay for it?

SPEAKER_00 45:50

I I think from my fixes them. Yeah, from my perspective, I think it's a cost analysis baby problem. Like it's very costly, as you can see. There's a lot of equipment in here. Yeah, there's a lot of you know high-end equipment. High-end equipment, it requires a I mean a neurosurgeon basically to to operate. Right, right. And then you've got psychiatry, you've got I gotta pay, I gotta keep the lights on. Okay. Yeah. I gotta pay the front staff, I gotta pay the nurse that's gonna do the ketamine. Right. You know, you gotta you look at all of these things, people say, Oh, yeah, you guys are making tons of money. Well, no, my my our overhead's pretty high. Yeah. You know, this this nice room, these these chairs. Yeah. These chairs were bought for patient comfort. You know, yeah, I didn't get them. I think you said those machines were a few hundred thousand dollars apiece for the phone. That's right, right? Yeah. Like, my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 46:34

But that's no different than a hospital. But but an MRI machine costs?

SPEAKER_00 46:38

I think there was a study done in British Columbia where they kind of looked at what would it cost to get these things as frontline, first line treatment, and and the cost was way too high.

SPEAKER_04 46:48

Yeah. But it doesn't even have to like I don't know. I'm guessing I guess it have to be first line, but I mean, you know, once someone's been through rehab three times, why don't we give it a go? You know what I mean? Like yeah, I yeah, I'd rather have that person.

SPEAKER_03 46:59

I do agree with you, Matt. Like I there is a certain value or price tag on human life that you know if it it can make that person human again.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

But but from the healthcare perspective, you know, our our ERs are over overloaded, you know, 24 hours, 36 hour wait to see an emergency room die. So we take money away from that to go to this, then it's just a f it's it's another gap in the system. So there's only you know, healthcare's expensive. It's really expensive to provide, you know, yes, the the the standard that Canadians want. And it's gonna cost money.

SPEAKER_04 47:32

I and and you know, and I'm not I'm not like I think we're on the same page here, so I'm not being argumentative. Oh no, I like be the devil's advocate. Yeah, but here's the other thing is you know why the the I I not that long, you know, I played football, so I was spent many times in the in the ER because of broken limbs, and obviously broken limbs get looked at last because you're not an emergency.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Right.

SPEAKER_04 47:52

And how many people I when I'm sitting around in those rooms for ten hours, I'm looking around, how many people probably have an addiction problem? That's probably the big part of the reason why they're there. Yeah. So I mean, yeah, we have long waits, but maybe we could you know shorten those if we had uh problems for those people. Or sorry, solutions for those people.

SPEAKER_03 48:10

I would hope that you could rehabilitate criminals to some extent, too, so they could get back in a modern society, right? I mean, probably. You know, because I mean uh think of the PSTD in jails, right? I mean, people might go in there for a mine or a fence and come out, you know, now they can't work anymore. Right. Now they can't you know what I mean? It's a political decision. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

You know, this is it really is. Yeah, it's uh it's all about politics. And where where are we gonna you know, where's the fire today? Where are we gonna throw money at? And that's the biggest thing is is that and this this is privately funded. You know, there's no government money in here.

SPEAKER_03 48:41

We do see other countries that are leading us in are leading in other like do you see this type of uh uh therapy uh uh like in Sweden or Norway? I'm just throwing out a few countries there. It's very popular in the Middle East.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

Yes. Yeah, because there's a lot of money. Yeah, Middle East is very big. Yeah. Yeah. Vinay in there. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:59

Where whereabouts in the Middle East is the same. Dubai. Dubai.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

Okay, so that's not the wealthier nations. Yeah, the wealthier nations. Yeah. India, there's a lot of demand in India right now for these. Well, like my kid didn't do good on his uh math test and the uh send them off to TMS.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

The new grounding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. No computer time to do it. No more fighting after school, Mike.

SPEAKER_04 49:20

Yeah. So I I that's I yeah, I mean, I I can see by the Middle East, though. I mean, obviously, because there's it seems like there's pretty much constantly war there, so there's probably a lot of like drama going on.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

In the US, it's very popular. There's a lot of TMS clinics in the U.S. It's very popular. Right. So Canada's a bit behind, you think? I don't want to say. I don't want to know which way I lean politically. Sure, yeah, yeah. But I'm leaning my head the uh this uh to the right.

SPEAKER_04 49:47

Yeah, well, but I mean, even still, it's like I think even with that, I don't I don't think this should be a political thing because it's uh I don't think it should be politicized at all.

SPEAKER_03 49:58

I mean I'm but healthcare is. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

Unfortunately, it is so at the end of the day, like I said, you know, it it's it boils down to funding, which boils down to you know the division where are we going to spend our money this year from the annual budget that the federal government gave us. And you know, do I spend it on this or security? Do I spend it on new infrastructure or do we spend it on healthcare? Yeah. You know, those are political decisions on how the money's spent.

SPEAKER_04 50:23

I think all governments don't because so this is like a shot at all of them, because it's like I don't think all I think so far I've not seen really a government take as serious preventative health care as much as it should be and don't value in what it can be. I know it gets scary spending, you know, ten doll today, but if it spending ten dollars today saves you 40 down the road, I I and I know that's like it is, it's down the road. You don't see it, but fifty years from now we could have a sus be a society that's a lot more functioning.

SPEAKER_03 50:56

When we make capital investments, that's exactly what they ask of us. They say, you know, trust the future that'll be more prosperous if we invest in A, B, C, right? And uh but yeah, we very much need to see. I agree. Like I think we're all in agreement here. So we're almost just kind of saying the same thing around a circle.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

I I I think if you look back 20, 30 years, can Canada was perceived as the best healthcare system in the world. Yes. And we remember those days. We've dropped. Yeah, we've dropped in you know, I don't know where we are in the ranking scale, but uh we were envied by the world for this very you know you know progressive healthcare system.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

You do have people from the Middle East coming here and they're shocked. Because I mean, well, what? You don't have doctors like everywhere? Like it's not easy to get health care. What do you mean? And uh, you know, so there's such a strain on the system now. Yeah. For the absolute basics, my partner's a nurse. So I mean the calls she receives, she's with 811, so it's a telehealth position. So the call she receives every day, you know. I mean, people really need help. Yeah, they do. Right? So yeah, so I guess moving on. So we have to get to our fun questions around. These are our fun and philosophical questions. Before we do, you know, just a plug for brainstem, how can they check it out if they're interested here in Halifax? I I really appreciated your time, Richard. Here we go. We have seven locations across the country.

SPEAKER_00 52:11

Well, soon to be eight. Soon to be eight. Soon to be eight. Yeah, so we've got uh we have two on the West Coast, Vancouver. We opened in Calgary, we got one in Edmonton, Kingston, Perth, Ontario, Ottawa, and here in Halifax. Cool. And we're opening up in I can't disclose the places yet, you know, it hasn't been announced, but two other locations coming up.

SPEAKER_04 52:29

Amazing. I bet you I could guess. Think about where there's a large military presence.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

Yeah, that's you the man.

SPEAKER_03 52:36

You're the you're the man.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Goes where the money is or where the just one one thing before we we we go on to the next phase. We we also do a lot of research. Yeah, and research is extremely important. Yeah. And the Royal Canadian Legion, BC UConn Command Headquarters, that's a big mouthful, gave us a generous donation to do a PTSD chronic pain study off the West Coast in our Syria location. And we just launched it a couple weeks ago. And already, you know, we've you know, we we we put cohorts through the program of five veterans, five veterans, five veterans, and already we're seeing reduced chronic pain issues in our veterans after the five-day protocol. Can you imagine that? You know, one of the biggest issues facing veterans is chronic pain. And we're gonna present our data, you know, scientific data to big forums this fall. One of them

Research On PTSD And Chronic Pain

SPEAKER_00 53:31

will be here in Halifax, and we're very excited about that. And we've got some other ideas about operator syndrome and other things like that that we want to, you know, cost money. It costs a lot of money to do a research program because you have to hire an ethics board, you got to hire scientists. It's not cheap. It's it's it's hundreds of thousands of dollars to run a very good quality, you know, ethically driven research study. So I just wanted to throw that in. Thanks.

SPEAKER_03 53:56

No, thank you. Yeah, and uh yeah, so uh brainstem, brainstem, S T I stimulation.

SPEAKER_05 54:02

Thank you. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:05

If you want to know more about the organization, just go online. Brain STEM is pretty easy to find, actually. It's right at the top of uh the web searches when I when I was doing my research. So, Matt, let's jump in. So we got we got six fun questions, and then you know, a last call question we ask all of our guests. So, Matt, go ahead, question one, bud.

SPEAKER_04 54:23

All right, so do you think that it would be a good idea for Canada to follow other NATO members such as Denmark and Sweden in conscription to the Army? So we're coming. These are deep heavy questions.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

Well, these I wasn't expecting this, man. Like you didn't tell me this. You did not tell me this when we started. My coffee's cold now. I gotta go get another cup. Yes. Yeah, yeah? Yeah, okay. Yeah, I I do think so.

SPEAKER_05 54:49

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:49

And I'm not saying this because I'm old now, but I do agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're out of it now. Yeah. I I I put my three years in, I'm good. I could still probably be young enough to get into it. I think I might have a couple years or two left, but not yet. Yeah. So I'm almost ready for this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:03

Okay. So that that that's a good great question. Yeah. And that that's a good question. Why do you think that? I I think that boy, this is really putting pressure on me here now to give us uh give us something. I I think we need to bring people in, these young kids, and show them some discipline, some organization in their lives. Teamwork. Teamwork. Yeah. Understanding what our country's about. You know, nobody knows what our country's about. You walk out there, ask somebody where where's Alberta? And they're gonna say, I don't what are you talking about? Where's the capital of Canada?

SPEAKER_05 55:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

Halifax?

Fun Questions And Perseverance

SPEAKER_00 55:41

Yeah. I don't you know what I mean. So I think if we brought them in, we'd give them a period of professional development well beyond what they're learning in school. I don't know what they're learning in school anymore. You know, I you know, my kids are you know in their 30s now, so I I think it would be good from that. It's a generational issue.

SPEAKER_03 55:56

And I think that's and to be clear to people listening, it's not this is not send people to war. This just means have a have a military establishment for for everyone that you serve. Absolutely. You learn about your country, you you understand what being a citizen is about.

SPEAKER_04 56:09

Could be a reservist, right? Right. Could simply just be a reservist.

SPEAKER_03 56:11

Absolutely. Two years. Yeah. Two years conscription and off they go. And it and and that way, if stuff goes down, you have a lot of people that are ready to go. Yeah. Right. And that's like you hope it never happens, but if it does, right, you know, better than the best place to be thrown in there on day one with uh with a helmet put on your head and not knowing how to hold a gun. Right. Yeah. You know, so the world is a dangerous place. Absolutely. Like it's yeah, it's out of control.

SPEAKER_00 56:35

Okay, that was easy. Let's go on to number two. Okay, give me give me number two.

SPEAKER_03 56:39

So so so we wrote these, so you get a tough one and a buffer. Right. Okay, give me a buffer one. Take a breath. So uh what's your number one go-to for relaxation? So when you're when Rich is just cooling out, TMS, no.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

I don't do it again. You academic.

SPEAKER_00 56:56

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

Well, that's uh I I train a lot. Okay, yeah, I do a lot of physical fitness. Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:03

You look fit. Do you mind asking how I'm 70.

SPEAKER_00 57:05

70? Yeah, thank you for helping with that. Could you tell the audience how young I look? No, no, it's a 69. No, I'm just joking. No, I'm just joking.

SPEAKER_03 57:13

No, you you're very healthy looking. No, I'm just joking. And uh uh uh no, you look you look very young and spry. I would, you know, not Peggy was a 70-year-old. How old do I look? I was gonna say 42. Oh, you're right on the mic. Nailed it! Nailed it. Yeah, yeah. Wow. He was doing his research on me probably. He's like, I didn't even know what this is.

SPEAKER_04 57:32

He leaned into some of his Intel buddies.

SPEAKER_03 57:34

That's right. Tell me all everything about this clan. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:37

Yeah. Okay, cool. All right, so question number three. Another tough one. So am I getting all the tough ones that I read to him? I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Okay, let's go. All right, in the movie The Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, the main character Joel learns that his ex-girlfriend, Clementine, undergoes an experimental medical procedure to erase all memories of him. So he goes and does the same surgery to himself. Do you think that some memories are too or so painful that it is best to just remove them?

SPEAKER_00 58:10

That's deep. Isn't that deep?

SPEAKER_03 58:12

Yeah, that's deep. It's a beautiful movie. Have you ever seen it? If you ever get a chance, eternal sunshine of the spotless mile with Jim Ferry. It's it's it's his best performance, one of the best movies I've ever seen. If you ever get a chance to watch it. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

Yeah. I'll look for it. Yes, I'll I'll tell my wife we've got to watch that movie. Yeah, yeah. But no, I think memories are there forever. Yeah. That's my answer. So leave them in there. Leave them in there. You don't want them erased. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Even if painful and terrible and terrifying. Yeah. It's part of being alive, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 58:39

Yes. That that is a very part of being a human being.

SPEAKER_00 58:42

Yeah. Absolutely. Separates us from amoebas. Just them. Just them. Great answer.

SPEAKER_03 58:49

Like I said, these are the fun philosophical questions. This one's an easy one. Number four to you, yeah. Yeah, super soft again. Yeah. Which cartoon character as a child today or present day? What was one of your favorite cartoon characters in one? Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

Like I grew up in the 50s and the 60s, right? So it was Bugs Bunny. Okay. The Bugs Bunny uh and uh the Roadrunner series. Oh, yeah. Every Saturday morning, man, like a bowl of Cheerios sitting in front of the cathode TV, you know, 55, you know, 55 pound little box on my mom and dad's in the living room. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Awesome. All right. That's a good memory. I would never want to erase that memory. Yes. Exactly. Okay. So that goes back to the memory question, right? Yeah. You don't want to erase those memories.

SPEAKER_04 59:34

Yeah.

unknown 59:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:35

Highs and lows, man.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

Yeah. That's what life's about.

SPEAKER_04 59:38

The lows make you appreciate the highs. So there you go. Question number five. This one's not so hard. Okay. What is who is one who is one of the most inspirational figures in history that you can think of? So in your opinion, most inspirational figure.

SPEAKER_00 59:54

Wow. It sounds like a trivial pursuit question. Remember that? Did you guys play Canadian? That's a Canadian main. Yeah, I know. That's what I mean. Played it uh when I was in my last year at university. Wow, I I have many characters or many you know historical figures I look to, but you know, I love history. History is such an important part of my life as well. Kind of I do that for a lot of relaxation as well. I would have to say I'm tossing up between a f a few here, but uh I'd say my dad.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:28

Oh, okay. That's nice. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

Yeah, I would say he was a he was a great soldier. Amazing. Yeah. So yeah, he said fought in two wars. Two pretty significant wars, so yeah. So I would say he had great influence, and I respect everything he did.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:41

That's amazing. Yeah. Awesome, good job.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:43

It's a good thing. Like if my favorite author would be Ernest Hemingway. Okay, yeah. Okay, well, yeah. I love love reading Hemingway. Like he was, you know, at the time a man's man. You know that statement, he's a man's man. You couldn't say that nowadays. Right. You know, you'd get slapped in the face. But uh yeah, Hemingway.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:59

Okay. All right. Well, there you go. There's a there's a personal one and a uh famous one. All right. Another softball, okay?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:06

We don't have any more hard, real hard questions. Uh so we eat the hard ones are over. So yeah, this one is is uh we always have a few silly ones. So okay. We want you to walk us through your idea of a perfect sandwich. Like you made a sandwich, what do you want on it? Like as a perfect sandwich.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:21

What sourdough? Sourdough bread. Yeah, sourdough bread. Yeah. For sure. No butter. Don't don't eat butter because it's part of that health regime I have. I would probably put in, you know, tomatoes, lettuce, probably some black olives.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

And then depending upon my mood, I would make it either a vegetarian or I'd probably want some really finely sliced prosciutto Italian ham. There you go. With some nice cheese and cut my wife is uh tremendous at this. Cut it in half, serve it on a nice plate, and enjoy it. That sounds beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:00

I'm hungry now. Italian sandwich. Yeah, Italian sandwich, there you go. All right, what what wait though? What what kind of cheese though?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:07

I I like cheddar. Old cheddar. Oh, yeah, like a five-year-old. Oh, 12? I'm gonna say like five, even like 12. He's going past the Baldur now. Oh, it is. Yeah, yeah, the Baldursen chest. We've ever been to their uh production center down in it's outside of Perth. Oh, really? Yeah, Balderson, yeah, it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:24

That's a it's great, yeah. It's great cheese.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

You shouldn't eat the orange cheese because it's got a kind of a dye. You should eat the white cheddar.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:30

Oh, 100%. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:31

Like cool. That's another story.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:33

Crystals in your cheddar. That's right. You want your cheddar so old they can order a scotch?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:40

Well, we're getting to the last one. This is another little bit of a philosophical question. We asked this to every guest in the last almost 100 episodes, Matt. Go ahead, bud.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:48

Oh, Mokyah that's right.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:49

So our last call is what advice were you given in your life that you would like to share with us? And our listeners.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

Yeah. Yeah. What advice? Perseverance. I think that's yeah, the advice that was given to me as a young, young kid was to persevere at everything you do.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:07

No matter how many times you get knocked down, you persevere. And that's kind of that's that's a great uh I tell them you get knocked down, you get back up, and you keep going. Chumbawumba, tum thumping. Remember that song? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:19

I get knocked down, but I get up. I can't sing very well.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:22

You're never going to keep me down, right? That's right. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:26

So remember looking that up in a dictionary after my dad said perseverance. Yeah. I looked it up and went. There it is. Now here I am 70 years later, still doing it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:36

Awesome. Well, thank you, Richard. I think this was a great conversation. And uh yeah, I hope uh hope we get to meet again. This has been fantastic. Absolutely. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

Cheers.