1 00:00:01,762 --> 00:00:03,766 Nate Shutes: Hello and welcome to the Bootstrapper's Guide to 2 00:00:03,806 --> 00:00:06,432 Logistics, the podcast highlighting founders doing it 3 00:00:06,451 --> 00:00:08,134 the way that doesn't get a lot of attention. 4 00:00:08,134 --> 00:00:11,067 We're here to change that by sharing their stories and 5 00:00:11,106 --> 00:00:12,570 inspiring others to take the leap. 6 00:00:13,699 --> 00:00:15,666 Hisham Khaki: It's a roller coaster ride that you might 7 00:00:15,788 --> 00:00:16,510 ultimately fail. 8 00:00:17,100 --> 00:00:19,068 Nate Shutes: That's when I kind of knew I was on to something. 9 00:00:19,782 --> 00:00:20,646 Hisham Khaki: It was very hard. 10 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,068 Nate Shutes: It truly is building a legacy. 11 00:00:23,740 --> 00:00:26,289 Hisham Khaki: The more life you live, the more wisdom you have. 12 00:00:26,839 --> 00:00:29,007 Nate Shutes: Because we are where we're supposed to be kind 13 00:00:29,047 --> 00:00:30,251 of answering the call. 14 00:00:30,780 --> 00:00:33,209 Don't shoulder entrepreneurship on your own. 15 00:00:33,209 --> 00:00:35,155 I'm your host, nate Shoots. 16 00:00:35,155 --> 00:00:38,201 Let's build something together from the ground up. 17 00:00:38,201 --> 00:00:43,570 Hello everybody, and welcome back to the show. 18 00:00:43,570 --> 00:00:47,115 We are getting started with Season 3 of the Bootstrapper's 19 00:00:47,174 --> 00:00:48,095 Guide to Logistics. 20 00:00:48,095 --> 00:00:51,703 Somebody asked me what's going to be different about Season 3? 21 00:00:51,703 --> 00:00:53,804 And I said absolutely nothing. 22 00:00:53,804 --> 00:00:57,207 We're doing the same thing we've always done, and trying to 23 00:00:57,207 --> 00:00:58,848 shine a light on people building good businesses, and 24 00:00:58,889 --> 00:01:10,225 doing it in a way that is ancient, almost as a simplistic 25 00:01:10,266 --> 00:01:13,373 way of saying it, but bootstrapping is not a new 26 00:01:13,433 --> 00:01:13,974 phenomenon. 27 00:01:13,974 --> 00:01:17,293 It's the way everything used to be started before fundraising 28 00:01:17,334 --> 00:01:18,921 and venture capital and private equity. 29 00:01:18,921 --> 00:01:20,447 Before any of those things were things. 30 00:01:20,447 --> 00:01:24,522 Bootstrapping was a thing, and so I am always excited to get to 31 00:01:24,522 --> 00:01:27,524 share another story, and this week we have my friend, hisham 32 00:01:27,563 --> 00:01:31,974 Khaki, who is the founder and CEO of ShiftSwap in Atlanta. 33 00:01:31,974 --> 00:01:33,884 Hisham, good morning, how are you today? 34 00:01:34,566 --> 00:01:36,230 Hisham Khaki: Good morning, nate , I am doing great. 35 00:01:36,230 --> 00:01:37,965 Thank you so much for having me on the show. 36 00:01:37,965 --> 00:01:41,177 I've loved following your podcast and I know our 37 00:01:41,197 --> 00:01:44,006 relationship goes even before you started the podcast, so I 38 00:01:44,025 --> 00:01:46,492 just feel honored to be on this today. 39 00:01:47,340 --> 00:01:49,186 Nate Shutes: Well, I am grateful to get the chance to unpack 40 00:01:49,225 --> 00:01:52,885 your journey a little bit and maybe we jump right in with. 41 00:01:52,885 --> 00:01:59,215 One of my first questions is you began Happy Gig before Shift 42 00:01:59,215 --> 00:02:03,025 Swap, so this is your second iteration, so why don't we start 43 00:02:03,025 --> 00:02:06,400 with the beginnings of your entrepreneurial journey, when 44 00:02:06,921 --> 00:02:10,329 Happy Gig was the first thing that you were building? 45 00:02:10,329 --> 00:02:13,701 What was it and what was the impetus for starting it in the 46 00:02:13,741 --> 00:02:14,163 first place? 47 00:02:15,485 --> 00:02:16,067 Hisham Khaki: Good question. 48 00:02:16,067 --> 00:02:23,062 So Happy Gig was the first company I think going before 49 00:02:23,143 --> 00:02:27,868 that, just kind of talking about my purpose of helping improve 50 00:02:27,889 --> 00:02:32,675 the lives of warehouse workers, which kind of leads into Happy 51 00:02:32,716 --> 00:02:32,996 Gig. 52 00:02:32,996 --> 00:02:35,759 I think that story is good. 53 00:02:35,759 --> 00:02:42,252 So I began my career working for a large 3PL and actually 54 00:02:42,293 --> 00:02:48,122 started in engineering 3PL and I actually started in engineering 55 00:02:48,122 --> 00:02:49,425 and one of the big things we were doing was rolling out lean 56 00:02:49,445 --> 00:02:50,590 within our distribution centers. 57 00:02:50,590 --> 00:02:53,661 I don't know, did you ever have experience with lean in 58 00:02:53,681 --> 00:02:54,163 warehousing? 59 00:02:54,584 --> 00:02:54,884 Nate Shutes: I do. 60 00:02:54,884 --> 00:02:56,389 I have a black belt myself. 61 00:02:56,389 --> 00:03:00,281 Oh okay, and I'm a process engineer at heart and did some 62 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,209 industrial engineering too, so I think we're cut from the same 63 00:03:03,250 --> 00:03:03,509 cloth. 64 00:03:03,509 --> 00:03:05,375 Did some industrial engineering too. 65 00:03:05,455 --> 00:03:06,979 Hisham Khaki: So I think we're cut from the same cloth. 66 00:03:06,979 --> 00:03:10,960 Exactly so. 67 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,025 We were rolling out lean and, as you all know that understand 68 00:03:13,044 --> 00:03:13,125 lean. 69 00:03:13,125 --> 00:03:14,348 The big piece of lean is employee engagement. 70 00:03:14,348 --> 00:03:16,171 And one of the big things we were doing was rolling out 71 00:03:16,252 --> 00:03:17,052 Kaizen events. 72 00:03:17,052 --> 00:03:22,486 And Kaizen events just to summarize real quick you get 73 00:03:23,229 --> 00:03:27,115 employees that are actually working on the direct processes, 74 00:03:27,115 --> 00:03:28,582 so floor associates. 75 00:03:28,582 --> 00:03:33,397 You take them away from the operation anywhere from one full 76 00:03:33,397 --> 00:03:36,310 day all the way to a week, and they're actually working on 77 00:03:36,349 --> 00:03:37,395 continuous improvement. 78 00:03:37,395 --> 00:03:39,843 So they're not doing any of their day-to-day jobs. 79 00:03:39,843 --> 00:03:42,931 They're literally in a conference room out on the floor 80 00:03:42,931 --> 00:03:45,687 crunching numbers with other engineers and other continuous 81 00:03:45,747 --> 00:03:49,605 improvement people and they're the ones figuring out how to 82 00:03:49,645 --> 00:03:52,573 make their processes better, which obviously makes sense. 83 00:03:54,882 --> 00:03:58,027 And when we'd finish up a Kaizen event, we'd have this kind of 84 00:03:58,068 --> 00:04:03,197 ceremony where we would give the associates that participated 85 00:04:03,758 --> 00:04:04,520 these certificates. 86 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:05,664 And they were so nice. 87 00:04:05,664 --> 00:04:07,300 There are these framed certificates. 88 00:04:07,300 --> 00:04:11,909 They were signed by executive leadership and we'd hand them 89 00:04:12,550 --> 00:04:13,473 out one by one. 90 00:04:13,473 --> 00:04:18,930 And I'll never forget I was doing a Kaizen event in 91 00:04:18,990 --> 00:04:23,668 McDonough, georgia, actually and I'll never forget the 92 00:04:23,687 --> 00:04:24,209 employee's name. 93 00:04:24,209 --> 00:04:29,362 His name was Dennis Gilpin, and when we handed him his 94 00:04:29,422 --> 00:04:34,773 certificate, I looked over after he grabbed it and he literally 95 00:04:34,932 --> 00:04:39,048 had a tear, like I'm not, it wasn't not being like figurative 96 00:04:39,048 --> 00:04:40,651 , he literally had a tear dropping down. 97 00:04:40,651 --> 00:04:43,283 And I went up to him and I was like Dennis, are you all right? 98 00:04:43,283 --> 00:04:48,031 And he just looked at me and he was a bit choked up and he said 99 00:04:48,031 --> 00:04:54,747 , man, I've been working in warehousing for 25 years and my 100 00:04:54,807 --> 00:04:57,331 wife is going to be so proud of me when I go home with this 101 00:04:57,952 --> 00:04:58,553 certificate. 102 00:04:58,553 --> 00:05:03,048 And man, like, at that moment it just clicked, like it did 103 00:05:03,129 --> 00:05:07,348 something to me where it was like okay, this is my purpose. 104 00:05:07,348 --> 00:05:12,031 My purpose is to find ways to help improve the lives of the 105 00:05:12,130 --> 00:05:13,052 hourly workforce. 106 00:05:14,420 --> 00:05:18,870 And you know, with the 3PL, I eventually went into operations, 107 00:05:18,870 --> 00:05:22,387 because operations you can impact more people's lives. 108 00:05:22,387 --> 00:05:25,732 And then eventually, at some point, I found I could impact 109 00:05:25,752 --> 00:05:26,235 even more people's lives. 110 00:05:26,235 --> 00:05:27,661 And then eventually, at some point, I found I could impact 111 00:05:27,701 --> 00:05:31,829 even more people's lives by starting up Happy Gig, which, in 112 00:05:31,829 --> 00:05:36,165 essence, that company was one of the pioneers of gig labor 113 00:05:36,524 --> 00:05:38,007 within the warehousing industry. 114 00:05:38,007 --> 00:05:42,442 So the premise is you've got great warehouse workers that are 115 00:05:42,442 --> 00:05:45,528 already working, that may be looking for extra hours, and 116 00:05:45,548 --> 00:05:49,574 you've got employers who need flex labor to help deal with 117 00:05:49,613 --> 00:05:52,345 variability, and there was really nothing out there back at 118 00:05:52,345 --> 00:05:57,247 that time that made that connection so founded Happy Gig. 119 00:05:57,247 --> 00:05:59,788 It had a tremendous amount of success with that. 120 00:05:59,788 --> 00:06:01,322 We began in. 121 00:06:01,322 --> 00:06:06,300 2018 is when we began recognizing revenue and then, of 122 00:06:06,300 --> 00:06:10,130 course, through COVID and all that, we saw a lot of success 123 00:06:11,321 --> 00:06:14,447 and then eventually that kind of morphed into ShiftSwap, which I 124 00:06:14,447 --> 00:06:18,446 know we'll get into a little bit more, but that's kind of the 125 00:06:18,446 --> 00:06:20,190 story of Happy Gig and how that started. 126 00:06:20,759 --> 00:06:23,007 Nate Shutes: Well, right off the bat, we're just leaning into 127 00:06:23,026 --> 00:06:27,021 the people side of things, and I love that because I have a deep 128 00:06:27,021 --> 00:06:28,362 fondness for warehousing. 129 00:06:28,362 --> 00:06:32,466 I've been in it for, I'd say, the last eight years. 130 00:06:32,466 --> 00:06:36,809 I've been responsible for at least one site usually many and 131 00:06:37,089 --> 00:06:39,771 it is not a place where cameras typically go. 132 00:06:39,771 --> 00:06:43,293 There's not a lot of podcasts being done inside of a warehouse 133 00:06:43,293 --> 00:06:47,576 and that workforce is generally not getting a lot of 134 00:06:47,617 --> 00:06:48,177 recognition. 135 00:06:48,177 --> 00:06:53,127 And yet they are the ones that do the work and without them, 136 00:06:53,406 --> 00:06:56,612 anything that's on the store shelf at Target or that shows up 137 00:06:56,612 --> 00:06:59,074 to your front doorstep would not be there. 138 00:06:59,074 --> 00:07:08,834 And I think there is a lack of awareness, maybe more than a 139 00:07:08,894 --> 00:07:09,815 lack of appreciation. 140 00:07:09,899 --> 00:07:13,327 I think if folks had a chance to spend time in more warehouses 141 00:07:13,387 --> 00:07:17,122 and see what it actually takes to do that kind of work I work 142 00:07:17,142 --> 00:07:21,968 in furniture, so you know I get to see folks lifting sofas 20 143 00:07:22,009 --> 00:07:25,665 feet up in the air on a cherry picker, and it's a different 144 00:07:27,069 --> 00:07:27,410 stress. 145 00:07:28,519 --> 00:07:30,971 You know there's a physical component to it that most people 146 00:07:30,971 --> 00:07:32,838 assume is all automated. 147 00:07:32,838 --> 00:07:35,786 Nowadays they get an idea of a conveyor type system in an 148 00:07:35,887 --> 00:07:38,161 Amazon facility and they think that that's what warehousing is. 149 00:07:38,161 --> 00:07:38,983 It's not. 150 00:07:38,983 --> 00:07:42,783 That's some of it, of course, but for the most part it is 151 00:07:42,903 --> 00:07:46,531 hardworking men and women getting up at really early hours 152 00:07:46,531 --> 00:07:52,391 4 am, you know, 3.30 am to get to a shift in the dark and 153 00:07:52,591 --> 00:07:56,103 working a very demanding job for long hours on their feet all 154 00:07:56,144 --> 00:07:56,564 day long. 155 00:07:56,564 --> 00:07:59,651 And so when I come across someone like you that has that 156 00:07:59,732 --> 00:08:03,346 same not just awareness but a deep appreciation for the people 157 00:08:03,346 --> 00:08:07,504 that do the work man, like right off the bat, it reminds me 158 00:08:07,504 --> 00:08:09,148 of why we hit it off when we first met. 159 00:08:09,148 --> 00:08:13,103 So I love the heart that you bring to it, and that is the 160 00:08:13,124 --> 00:08:13,745 heart of Lean. 161 00:08:13,745 --> 00:08:18,019 Also is it's about the people, and those folks generally. 162 00:08:18,019 --> 00:08:23,050 Again, don't get asked, hey, what can we do to make your work 163 00:08:23,050 --> 00:08:24,994 easier, more efficient or safer ? 164 00:08:47,460 --> 00:08:51,059 Hisham Khaki: no-transcript. 165 00:08:51,059 --> 00:08:55,207 My first job was actually in cement manufacturing and I was a 166 00:08:55,207 --> 00:09:01,928 process engineer at a large uh cement uh factory and it was a 167 00:09:02,068 --> 00:09:02,389 union. 168 00:09:02,389 --> 00:09:05,618 You know union operation's all I really knew. 169 00:09:05,618 --> 00:09:09,066 I did that for a little less than two years before I went to 170 00:09:09,386 --> 00:09:14,440 the 3pl world and during my interview, um, I was walking 171 00:09:14,881 --> 00:09:17,551 through the warehouse and it's really the first real warehouse 172 00:09:17,692 --> 00:09:21,101 I've been in and I'm interviewing for a logistics 173 00:09:21,163 --> 00:09:26,033 engineer job where my job, my, my role was to make things more 174 00:09:26,052 --> 00:09:26,453 efficient. 175 00:09:27,841 --> 00:09:32,311 And the VP of ops, one of my mentors, he's walking around 176 00:09:32,331 --> 00:09:35,304 with me, interviewing me, and my eyes are huge because I'm 177 00:09:35,466 --> 00:09:39,698 seeing all these people on these clamp trucks and they're 178 00:09:39,719 --> 00:09:44,669 driving backwards and they're moving, like you know, at a very 179 00:09:44,669 --> 00:09:47,524 high speed, they're honking, I mean it's, it's crazy in the 180 00:09:47,544 --> 00:09:47,907 warehouse. 181 00:09:47,907 --> 00:09:53,932 And he looks at me, the VP of ops, uh, and he, his name was 182 00:09:53,991 --> 00:09:57,325 Ralph Price and he goes yeah, sham, and he had a really raspy 183 00:09:57,345 --> 00:09:58,082 voice, shammy. 184 00:09:58,082 --> 00:10:00,841 Tons of opportunity over here, right, you can probably see it 185 00:10:01,022 --> 00:10:01,503 everywhere. 186 00:10:01,503 --> 00:10:04,629 And in the back of my mind I'm like, oh my God, like where's 187 00:10:04,649 --> 00:10:05,350 the opportunity? 188 00:10:05,350 --> 00:10:06,813 These people are all working. 189 00:10:06,813 --> 00:10:15,067 I came from an environment where, unless the factory was in 190 00:10:15,067 --> 00:10:16,894 shutdown, meltdown mode, you know, operators would have their 191 00:10:16,894 --> 00:10:18,399 feet kicked up, just waiting for something wrong to happen. 192 00:10:18,659 --> 00:10:19,822 Nate Shutes: Totally the opposite environment. 193 00:10:20,566 --> 00:10:23,321 Hisham Khaki: Completely, and you're right, like people don't. 194 00:10:23,321 --> 00:10:27,303 Most people have never really been inside of a warehouse other 195 00:10:27,303 --> 00:10:31,388 than a Costco, but a true warehouse. 196 00:10:31,388 --> 00:10:34,951 They've never seen how efficient it really is and how 197 00:10:35,030 --> 00:10:38,833 hard people are working in there and how much weight they're 198 00:10:38,874 --> 00:10:40,735 lifting and the motions they're going through. 199 00:10:40,735 --> 00:10:48,640 It's a lot going through. 200 00:10:48,660 --> 00:10:48,900 Nate Shutes: It's a lot. 201 00:10:48,900 --> 00:10:50,345 It's a wonderful ecosystem is sort of the way I picture the 202 00:10:50,365 --> 00:10:50,947 four walls of a warehouse. 203 00:10:50,947 --> 00:10:51,567 Every warehouse is different. 204 00:10:51,567 --> 00:10:54,764 It could be the identical product, racking, equipment and 205 00:10:54,923 --> 00:10:58,131 everything, but you just add different people and it becomes 206 00:10:58,172 --> 00:11:03,107 a different organism altogether and it evolves and changes over 207 00:11:03,168 --> 00:11:06,413 time and that you can't understand it unless you 208 00:11:06,452 --> 00:11:07,235 experience it. 209 00:11:07,740 --> 00:11:11,270 And observing will get you some insight. 210 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:13,385 Participating will get you more. 211 00:11:13,620 --> 00:11:16,803 Doing the work will get you the most, and that means being there 212 00:11:16,803 --> 00:11:20,926 for the 6 am stand-up meeting, not just flying in in the 213 00:11:21,006 --> 00:11:23,080 afternoon, and after all, the work is mostly done and 214 00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:24,201 everybody's on their way out. 215 00:11:24,581 --> 00:11:30,371 And again, not a lot of folks have that level of appreciation 216 00:11:30,451 --> 00:11:33,724 for it, and so maybe part of this episode really is going to 217 00:11:33,844 --> 00:11:37,100 just be about highlighting the people, because I know that's a 218 00:11:37,159 --> 00:11:42,333 big reason why you do what you do now is it's obviously you're 219 00:11:42,433 --> 00:11:46,947 in a company to make a profit, but you're also adding elements 220 00:11:47,067 --> 00:11:49,544 to that of I want to do it in a way that's going to have an 221 00:11:49,585 --> 00:11:51,129 impact and be good for others. 222 00:11:51,129 --> 00:11:55,567 So you, beforehand, I asked you a handful of questions and you 223 00:11:55,607 --> 00:11:59,461 shared with me some of your values that you run your 224 00:11:59,481 --> 00:12:03,389 business by and we'll at some point we'll get into what Shift 225 00:12:03,408 --> 00:12:06,575 Swap does too, but this is such fertile ground. 226 00:12:06,575 --> 00:12:09,586 The two that really stood out to me right off the bat were 227 00:12:09,687 --> 00:12:16,307 simplicity and effectiveness, and I'm curious how you landed 228 00:12:16,407 --> 00:12:21,715 on those as two of the values that guide your decision making 229 00:12:29,822 --> 00:12:30,965 that guide your decision making. 230 00:12:30,985 --> 00:12:32,027 Hisham Khaki: Yeah, so simplicity is something I've 231 00:12:32,107 --> 00:12:34,673 always been extremely fond of, because I I've always felt to 232 00:12:34,793 --> 00:12:39,081 actually create something simple is extremely complicated and 233 00:12:39,981 --> 00:12:45,845 you know, no matter what you're looking at in life, whether it's 234 00:12:45,845 --> 00:12:52,288 a person training to be an athlete or someone in the 235 00:12:52,349 --> 00:12:59,352 warehouse trying to pick orders and get it onto a truck, for 236 00:12:59,393 --> 00:13:05,976 whatever reason, lots of people overcomplicate processes and I 237 00:13:05,996 --> 00:13:13,260 still don't understand why a lot of the times, and I just see it 238 00:13:13,260 --> 00:13:13,260 . 239 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:14,605 Once you start seeing it, you can't stop seeing it in so many 240 00:13:14,625 --> 00:13:14,765 things. 241 00:13:14,765 --> 00:13:16,130 So I've always been kind of obsessed with what's the 242 00:13:16,150 --> 00:13:20,062 simplest way to accomplish the goal at hand, and whether that 243 00:13:20,123 --> 00:13:25,313 goal is creating a software that's actually effective or 244 00:13:25,533 --> 00:13:28,320 creating a process that is efficient. 245 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:34,331 If you have kind of that goal of simplicity, a lot of, and it 246 00:13:34,390 --> 00:13:35,092 takes a lot of work. 247 00:13:35,092 --> 00:13:38,743 By the way, like that, when you say, create something simple, 248 00:13:38,883 --> 00:13:44,090 it takes a lot of work to get there, but once you do, the 249 00:13:44,210 --> 00:13:51,442 impact usually is very clear and it's tangible, so that I don't 250 00:13:51,461 --> 00:13:51,562 know. 251 00:13:51,562 --> 00:13:53,769 That's always just been something that's been near and 252 00:13:53,788 --> 00:13:54,390 dear to my heart. 253 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,443 Nate Shutes: You seem to have design instincts at your core, 254 00:13:59,484 --> 00:14:01,447 then is what that is telling me? 255 00:14:01,447 --> 00:14:07,554 From engineering processes to visualizing flow, you are a 256 00:14:07,615 --> 00:14:12,232 process designer seeking the shortest path between a and b, 257 00:14:12,293 --> 00:14:14,200 or the most efficient or the most effective. 258 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,610 Is that something that you discovered about yourself as an 259 00:14:18,690 --> 00:14:19,932 adult, or were you? 260 00:14:19,932 --> 00:14:22,325 When you were younger, you shared? 261 00:14:22,325 --> 00:14:23,768 You know that you're a bit of a troublemaker. 262 00:14:23,768 --> 00:14:27,736 Were you always looking for a creative solution to a problem 263 00:14:27,777 --> 00:14:33,190 that maybe didn't fit within the academic world, or has that 264 00:14:33,210 --> 00:14:34,192 always been a part of your DNA? 265 00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:37,721 Hisham Khaki: Yeah, that's an interesting question. 266 00:14:37,721 --> 00:14:45,614 I almost think it started more when I was younger, just 267 00:14:45,774 --> 00:14:49,841 sometimes feeling dumb, to be honest, right when you hear 268 00:14:50,422 --> 00:14:54,428 complex things being thrown at you and you're not grasping it, 269 00:14:55,671 --> 00:15:02,350 you feel a bit dumb, but I always want to figure it out or 270 00:15:02,390 --> 00:15:03,052 find the truth. 271 00:15:03,052 --> 00:15:07,001 So my mind would always go to okay, this is what I'm being 272 00:15:07,081 --> 00:15:07,624 told. 273 00:15:07,624 --> 00:15:11,580 How can I simplify this to where I understand it and then I 274 00:15:11,580 --> 00:15:15,971 can communicate it to other people and my mind will just 275 00:15:16,091 --> 00:15:20,601 break down complexity and figure it out the simplest way 276 00:15:21,263 --> 00:15:21,783 possible. 277 00:15:21,783 --> 00:15:24,990 And maybe I didn't really understand that. 278 00:15:24,990 --> 00:15:29,085 That's how I operated until my professional career, but looking 279 00:15:29,085 --> 00:15:31,590 back as a child, I think that's what it was. 280 00:15:31,590 --> 00:15:38,631 I almost had a fear of looking dumb, so it made me really peel 281 00:15:38,652 --> 00:15:42,802 the layers back in whatever I was trying to understand or look 282 00:15:42,802 --> 00:15:45,870 at and then be able to explain it in a very simple way. 283 00:15:47,221 --> 00:15:49,549 Nate Shutes: Yeah, I hear curiosity in that then as well, 284 00:15:50,260 --> 00:15:54,610 Not accepting something at face value, but wanting to peel it 285 00:15:54,669 --> 00:15:56,474 back and understand it more. 286 00:15:56,474 --> 00:16:01,688 Once you tap into that, you had a bunch of success in your 287 00:16:01,729 --> 00:16:02,129 career. 288 00:16:02,129 --> 00:16:04,255 You had a bunch of success in your career. 289 00:16:04,255 --> 00:16:07,054 You rise to the executive level of a very large and successful 290 00:16:07,155 --> 00:16:11,046 organization and gained a lot of experience, I'm sure on the 291 00:16:11,106 --> 00:16:17,452 people side as well leadership, strategy, management. 292 00:16:17,452 --> 00:16:21,985 And then one day you decide, okay, I'm going to go out on my 293 00:16:22,166 --> 00:16:27,480 own and give up the golden handcuffs, the seeming security 294 00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:31,109 and structure of a large organization, and try to build 295 00:16:31,168 --> 00:16:32,091 something from scratch. 296 00:16:32,171 --> 00:16:36,927 So you must have had aside from wanting to have an impact, you 297 00:16:36,966 --> 00:16:41,100 must have had a very high level of conviction that there was a 298 00:16:41,181 --> 00:16:43,602 need and that you were the right person to solve it. 299 00:16:43,602 --> 00:16:45,884 There was a need and that you were the right person to solve 300 00:16:45,904 --> 00:16:45,945 it. 301 00:16:45,945 --> 00:16:51,450 Then, as happy, gig started to morph into shift swap, you know 302 00:16:52,150 --> 00:16:56,840 and some learning happened in between there that caused you to 303 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:58,903 choose a slightly different direction. 304 00:16:58,903 --> 00:17:03,195 Can you help me understand what that learning process was of? 305 00:17:03,195 --> 00:17:06,318 Okay, we're going to go this direction slightly different now 306 00:17:06,318 --> 00:17:09,442 and I see a new opportunity that I have equal conviction in, 307 00:17:09,442 --> 00:17:13,596 yeah, and maybe you can explain what shift swap is too. 308 00:17:13,596 --> 00:17:16,999 We're 20 minutes in and I haven't even asked you that. 309 00:17:16,999 --> 00:17:17,480 My bad. 310 00:17:18,849 --> 00:17:21,491 Hisham Khaki: So and I'll get into it a little bit more. 311 00:17:21,491 --> 00:17:24,315 But happy gig is external labor . 312 00:17:24,315 --> 00:17:28,057 So imagine you've got a warehouse, you need some flex 313 00:17:28,097 --> 00:17:33,061 labor and you're basically going to the outside to bring labor 314 00:17:33,202 --> 00:17:33,323 in. 315 00:17:33,323 --> 00:17:37,866 Shift swap creates almost that gig economy or flexibility 316 00:17:37,926 --> 00:17:39,451 within your own operation. 317 00:17:39,451 --> 00:17:43,960 So and we'll we'll get more into exactly what that means. 318 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:49,553 But you know how it morphed from HappyGig Flex and HappyGig 319 00:17:49,573 --> 00:17:53,416 Flex is still around, by the way but how that really morphed 320 00:17:53,457 --> 00:17:55,878 more into ShiftSwap is. 321 00:17:58,201 --> 00:18:02,346 Iteration is the key to any startup, any business. 322 00:18:02,346 --> 00:18:04,817 I believe the key is always iteration. 323 00:18:04,817 --> 00:18:08,536 Things change so quickly, needs change very quickly. 324 00:18:08,536 --> 00:18:11,813 You've got to be able to iterate in a very smooth, 325 00:18:11,833 --> 00:18:12,374 controlled way. 326 00:18:12,374 --> 00:18:15,277 Um, in a very smooth, controlled way. 327 00:18:15,277 --> 00:18:20,762 So what we started finding was that a lot of like after COVID. 328 00:18:21,183 --> 00:18:23,586 After COVID, after things started stabilizing a little bit 329 00:18:23,586 --> 00:18:30,292 , a lot of our customers started saying this is great, we love 330 00:18:30,313 --> 00:18:31,596 being able to tap into your workforce, but honestly, we need 331 00:18:31,596 --> 00:18:32,941 something for our own workforce . 332 00:18:32,941 --> 00:18:36,273 We're struggling with retaining our workforce and we're 333 00:18:36,295 --> 00:18:39,340 starting to believe that the key really is to figure out how to 334 00:18:39,382 --> 00:18:45,279 retain them, and we're hearing from them that they need a 335 00:18:45,299 --> 00:18:46,683 little bit more flexibility. 336 00:18:46,683 --> 00:18:49,978 So I started listening to that and hearing more and more 337 00:18:50,038 --> 00:18:51,060 customers say that. 338 00:18:51,060 --> 00:18:56,255 And then what happened was one of my largest customers came to 339 00:18:56,316 --> 00:19:03,025 me and said hey, we love Happy Gig, but we have a corporate 340 00:19:03,045 --> 00:19:03,526 initiative. 341 00:19:03,526 --> 00:19:04,734 This is a billion-dollar company. 342 00:19:04,734 --> 00:19:08,573 We have a corporate initiative to create flexibility within our 343 00:19:08,573 --> 00:19:13,376 workforce and we want to explore the opportunity of you 344 00:19:13,518 --> 00:19:17,121 actually building it, your team building it for us, because 345 00:19:17,260 --> 00:19:20,242 everyone loves the user experience of of happy gig. 346 00:19:20,242 --> 00:19:24,727 So we said yes to that and we built it. 347 00:19:25,791 --> 00:19:30,039 And, uh, we built like an MVP rather quickly within a couple 348 00:19:30,079 --> 00:19:33,432 of months, started rolling it out to pilot sites, started 349 00:19:33,451 --> 00:19:37,097 taking feedback and then we just started seeing it work. 350 00:19:37,097 --> 00:19:38,760 Site after site was loving it. 351 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,404 They were immediately seeing improvements in their metrics 352 00:19:42,530 --> 00:19:44,035 and then it just started taking off from there. 353 00:19:44,035 --> 00:19:48,794 And my North Star has always been how can I impact the most 354 00:19:48,855 --> 00:19:49,256 lives? 355 00:19:49,256 --> 00:19:52,510 So whenever I'm thinking about where to pivot to next whether 356 00:19:52,530 --> 00:19:55,940 it was engineering into operations, operations to Happy 357 00:19:55,980 --> 00:20:03,472 Gig, happy Gig to ChefSwap it's always how can I impact more 358 00:20:03,492 --> 00:20:03,772 people's lives? 359 00:20:03,772 --> 00:20:05,256 And I quickly realized ChefSwap can, has the potential to 360 00:20:05,276 --> 00:20:09,651 impact the lives of many more people than Happy Gig Flex, and 361 00:20:09,671 --> 00:20:12,299 that's why it's become our number one focus right now. 362 00:20:12,869 --> 00:20:15,740 Nate Shutes: And can you explain what the primary use of it is? 363 00:20:18,369 --> 00:20:19,873 Hisham Khaki: focus right now and can you explain what the 364 00:20:19,913 --> 00:20:20,374 primary use of it is? 365 00:20:20,374 --> 00:20:20,674 Absolutely so. 366 00:20:20,674 --> 00:20:22,558 It actually it'll work for any hourly workforce and there are 367 00:20:22,578 --> 00:20:24,702 really three, three big values to it. 368 00:20:24,702 --> 00:20:30,983 The first one is um, let's say I'm an associate somewhere and 369 00:20:32,366 --> 00:20:35,857 let's say I don't have childcare this coming Monday morning. 370 00:20:35,857 --> 00:20:40,733 Typically what would happen is I'd wait until Monday morning 371 00:20:41,275 --> 00:20:43,180 and I'd call out sick, like that's. 372 00:20:43,180 --> 00:20:46,837 That's the way it works, especially in warehousing, and 373 00:20:46,959 --> 00:20:50,190 I'll take you know the hits I'll take from an HR perspective. 374 00:20:50,190 --> 00:20:54,738 I'll get you know another point and I get one step closer to 375 00:20:54,778 --> 00:20:55,480 being terminated. 376 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,472 But it's the way I get a little bit of flexibility for myself 377 00:21:00,957 --> 00:21:03,282 and what ends up happening is I'll eventually get terminated. 378 00:21:03,282 --> 00:21:04,813 That's what happens in warehousing. 379 00:21:04,813 --> 00:21:09,864 With shift swap, I would actually be able to post that 380 00:21:09,930 --> 00:21:13,596 portion of my shift and then someone else from another shift 381 00:21:14,136 --> 00:21:17,561 if I have a multi-shift operation can grab that shift 382 00:21:18,163 --> 00:21:22,115 and cover it for me and that feature you've seen a tremendous 383 00:21:22,115 --> 00:21:23,942 amount of reduction in turnover . 384 00:21:25,112 --> 00:21:28,280 The second big value is all of your dynamic shifts. 385 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:37,009 So any kind of overtime, any kind of voluntary time off, time 386 00:21:37,009 --> 00:21:37,671 off If you have part-time workers. 387 00:21:37,671 --> 00:21:39,855 Traditionally the way we do in warehousing is an ops manager or 388 00:21:39,855 --> 00:21:43,803 a supervisor walks the floor, collects volunteers, or they'll 389 00:21:43,824 --> 00:21:46,855 put a break room sign up sheet or they'll just call mandatory 390 00:21:46,977 --> 00:21:51,633 overtime or mandatory cut to hours, and none of that is good. 391 00:21:51,633 --> 00:21:56,481 That creates problems, lots of problems With ShiftSwap. 392 00:21:56,481 --> 00:21:57,723 All that becomes automated. 393 00:21:57,723 --> 00:22:01,056 I'm an operations manager, I need six people to stay a couple 394 00:22:01,056 --> 00:22:05,436 hours longer, I post that I need six people and it all 395 00:22:05,477 --> 00:22:08,284 happens in a seamless way where everyone gets the notification, 396 00:22:08,730 --> 00:22:09,816 they can grab the shift. 397 00:22:09,816 --> 00:22:11,736 It goes back to leadership for approval. 398 00:22:11,736 --> 00:22:12,960 Good to go. 399 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,059 And the third big value is just messaging. 400 00:22:16,059 --> 00:22:18,671 Messaging so a way to keep in communication with your 401 00:22:18,711 --> 00:22:21,661 workforce, whether it's departments, skill sets, 402 00:22:21,801 --> 00:22:25,755 individuals, the entire team, you know, just a simple way to 403 00:22:25,795 --> 00:22:29,689 communicate with your workforce what's interesting is the 404 00:22:29,749 --> 00:22:33,116 difference between white collar work and blue collar work in the 405 00:22:33,116 --> 00:22:34,721 white collar world generally speaking. 406 00:22:34,781 --> 00:22:37,652 Nate Shutes: Hey, I've got a, my kid has an event at their 407 00:22:37,692 --> 00:22:37,932 school. 408 00:22:37,932 --> 00:22:40,282 I'm going to be a couple of hours late and it's sort of uh, 409 00:22:41,428 --> 00:22:43,173 as long as you get the work done , totally cool. 410 00:22:43,173 --> 00:22:44,174 You have the flexibility. 411 00:22:44,174 --> 00:22:46,440 You know we're not clock watchers, yeah. 412 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,012 And yet the blue collar workforce that's paid hourly 413 00:22:50,633 --> 00:22:54,117 doesn't receive that same flexibility. 414 00:22:54,117 --> 00:22:58,623 And you hit the nail on the head as soon as an hourly 415 00:22:59,003 --> 00:23:03,376 associate gets on the point radar hey, you were 20 minutes 416 00:23:03,457 --> 00:23:06,244 late or something happened. 417 00:23:06,244 --> 00:23:09,973 The relationship changes to one . 418 00:23:09,973 --> 00:23:11,276 It almost feels punitive. 419 00:23:11,276 --> 00:23:14,702 Where they just had something in life happen, it wasn't. 420 00:23:16,214 --> 00:23:17,037 I live in Minnesota. 421 00:23:17,037 --> 00:23:18,711 We have blizzards, you know. 422 00:23:18,711 --> 00:23:21,140 Some people can have a snowblower, some people don't. 423 00:23:21,140 --> 00:23:24,671 That might mean you're shoveling for an extra hour and 424 00:23:24,750 --> 00:23:28,641 of course you'll make acts of God type exceptions for 425 00:23:28,681 --> 00:23:29,403 attendance issues. 426 00:23:29,403 --> 00:23:33,941 But that kind of impact is felt much more severely by hourly 427 00:23:33,961 --> 00:23:37,248 workers and they generally unless it's a unionized 428 00:23:37,288 --> 00:23:39,913 workforce they don't have as much of a voice typically to 429 00:23:41,958 --> 00:23:46,413 stay off of that radar or build processes and policies that are 430 00:23:46,472 --> 00:23:47,195 more accommodating. 431 00:23:47,195 --> 00:23:51,769 So if your goal is so, this is me riffing and just learning as 432 00:23:51,789 --> 00:23:54,015 we're talking here, because this is helpful for me. 433 00:23:54,015 --> 00:23:59,731 I still run a facility today and this is good reminders for 434 00:23:59,771 --> 00:23:59,873 me. 435 00:23:59,873 --> 00:24:03,319 If your goal, oh, go ahead. 436 00:24:03,941 --> 00:24:05,423 Hisham Khaki: No, I mean it, just it. 437 00:24:05,423 --> 00:24:11,056 The white collar workforce had the flexibility even before 438 00:24:11,096 --> 00:24:12,378 COVID to a certain degree. 439 00:24:12,378 --> 00:24:16,625 But after COVID, I mean white collar workforce went through 440 00:24:16,644 --> 00:24:19,796 revolution where the amount of flexibility now is unbelievable. 441 00:24:19,796 --> 00:24:25,153 Right, like most, you know, most companies allow a lot of 442 00:24:25,194 --> 00:24:30,584 flexibility for the white collar workforce and still zero for 443 00:24:30,604 --> 00:24:31,592 the hourly workforce. 444 00:24:31,592 --> 00:24:35,960 I remember being in operations where there were train tracks, 445 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,272 you know, right next to the facility, and if you got caught 446 00:24:40,313 --> 00:24:43,519 behind a train and you were 10 minutes late, you still got. 447 00:24:43,519 --> 00:24:44,803 The points Didn't matter. 448 00:24:44,803 --> 00:24:50,897 So imagine like you're going into your job, nate, and you 449 00:24:50,958 --> 00:24:54,202 have to worry about not getting stuck behind a train to 450 00:24:54,222 --> 00:24:55,444 potentially lose your job. 451 00:24:55,444 --> 00:24:59,275 Like how are you able to focus on anything else other than that 452 00:24:59,275 --> 00:24:59,275 ? 453 00:25:00,038 --> 00:25:01,691 Nate Shutes: And then how do you not feel that that's somehow 454 00:25:01,830 --> 00:25:03,534 unfair and again punitive? 455 00:25:03,574 --> 00:25:08,324 I recall in the beginnings of COVID the very, very early days 456 00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:12,318 where all of a sudden everything started shutting down and we 457 00:25:12,338 --> 00:25:15,431 have hindsight now to know kind of the severity of what COVID 458 00:25:15,471 --> 00:25:16,151 turned out to be. 459 00:25:16,672 --> 00:25:21,755 But in the moment nobody knew, everybody was afraid and a bunch 460 00:25:21,755 --> 00:25:24,877 of folks generally were like I'm not going into the office, 461 00:25:25,278 --> 00:25:27,199 I'm staying home, I don't have a choice, you can't do 462 00:25:27,219 --> 00:25:39,772 warehousing remotely, and so there was a big disparity in how 463 00:25:39,772 --> 00:25:43,982 risk was absorbed in the population. 464 00:25:45,366 --> 00:25:47,393 And again, I'm going specifically to that period 465 00:25:47,413 --> 00:25:48,838 where none of us knew what was happening. 466 00:25:48,838 --> 00:25:52,853 And I recall being in a facility at the end of the day 467 00:25:52,993 --> 00:25:56,019 and we had bleach and all of these cleaning supplies and we 468 00:25:56,039 --> 00:25:59,969 had not full gear on but we were like disinfecting the soda pop 469 00:26:00,009 --> 00:26:03,999 machine and wiping down sinks and all the pack stations and 470 00:26:04,019 --> 00:26:09,440 the mouses at the ship station and we didn't know if we were 471 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,429 gonna, you know, get really, really sick and have to go to 472 00:26:12,449 --> 00:26:12,910 the hospital. 473 00:26:12,910 --> 00:26:16,034 Meanwhile a whole other group of people was just tucked away 474 00:26:16,074 --> 00:26:16,835 safely at home. 475 00:26:16,835 --> 00:26:24,924 And it really does highlight the differences of why one rule 476 00:26:24,984 --> 00:26:27,515 can't apply effectively to everybody, and then how you do 477 00:26:27,555 --> 00:26:31,512 need to adapt to, in this case, who your customers are and who 478 00:26:31,532 --> 00:26:34,000 the people are that you're trying to impact their lives. 479 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,250 How do you measure how much impact you're having? 480 00:26:40,472 --> 00:26:41,414 Hisham Khaki: Yeah, great question. 481 00:26:41,414 --> 00:26:49,525 So the beauty of ShiftSwap is that it's literally improving 482 00:26:49,806 --> 00:26:53,875 the lives of the workers that are registered with ShiftSwap 483 00:26:53,915 --> 00:26:58,083 and are using it and at the same time, it's helping the 484 00:26:58,143 --> 00:26:59,325 employer's bottom line. 485 00:26:59,325 --> 00:27:01,035 It's like it's a win-win. 486 00:27:01,035 --> 00:27:05,846 So, you know, if you pitch something to a traditional 487 00:27:05,885 --> 00:27:09,215 warehousing company and it's just pitched as hey, this is 488 00:27:09,256 --> 00:27:13,393 going to make your employees' lives better, their first 489 00:27:13,432 --> 00:27:14,517 question is going to be well, what's? 490 00:27:14,517 --> 00:27:16,413 You know, is this going to cost me more? 491 00:27:16,413 --> 00:27:19,359 You know, is it going to inflate the cost per unit? 492 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:20,101 What's going to happen? 493 00:27:20,101 --> 00:27:24,357 So when you find something that really helps employees and, at 494 00:27:24,397 --> 00:27:27,211 the same time, helps the company's bottom line, that's 495 00:27:27,310 --> 00:27:28,692 when you've really got something . 496 00:27:29,313 --> 00:27:36,260 And the way, the way we measure our impact for employers is 497 00:27:36,681 --> 00:27:40,385 simple it's reduction in turnover, reduction in 498 00:27:40,526 --> 00:27:43,497 absenteeism and reduction in cost per unit. 499 00:27:43,497 --> 00:27:46,789 So those three things are used from the employer's perspective 500 00:27:47,090 --> 00:27:47,913 to justify it. 501 00:27:47,913 --> 00:27:51,119 And then the associate's perspective. 502 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,432 I mean, of course, for me it's number of users. 503 00:27:54,432 --> 00:27:59,541 Our goal in the next few years is to literally impact the lives 504 00:27:59,541 --> 00:28:01,664 of a million hourly associates. 505 00:28:01,664 --> 00:28:02,934 That's where we want to get to. 506 00:28:02,934 --> 00:28:07,520 So that's, that's our high level number metric of how many 507 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:08,482 lives we're impacting. 508 00:28:08,482 --> 00:28:12,277 But then from there, you just see how many, how many hours 509 00:28:12,356 --> 00:28:16,030 people are able to take off without getting pointed, how 510 00:28:16,070 --> 00:28:19,159 many times people are able to give up a portion of their shift 511 00:28:19,159 --> 00:28:20,642 to take care of something at home. 512 00:28:20,642 --> 00:28:25,038 How many times am I able to grab overtime or a little bit of 513 00:28:25,038 --> 00:28:26,903 extra money to support my family? 514 00:28:26,903 --> 00:28:29,498 So there's many, many different things. 515 00:28:30,611 --> 00:28:32,075 Nate Shutes: When you think of a million people. 516 00:28:32,075 --> 00:28:38,369 It's too big of a number to actually comprehend A million 517 00:28:38,391 --> 00:28:39,212 people in one place at one time. 518 00:28:39,212 --> 00:28:40,335 There are a handful of concerts . 519 00:28:40,335 --> 00:28:43,021 I think Garth Brooks in New York in the 90s. 520 00:28:43,021 --> 00:28:45,076 They said that he had a million people at his concert, or 521 00:28:45,116 --> 00:28:45,759 something like that. 522 00:28:45,759 --> 00:28:50,240 And so we like those really big numbers, but even smaller 523 00:28:50,299 --> 00:28:50,621 numbers. 524 00:28:50,621 --> 00:28:55,657 If you make a post on LinkedIn, for example, and it gets 500 525 00:28:55,877 --> 00:28:58,363 impressions, somebody would be like, oh, it's only 500. 526 00:28:58,363 --> 00:28:59,265 It's not that big of a deal. 527 00:28:59,265 --> 00:29:01,877 You know how many people 500 people is. 528 00:29:01,877 --> 00:29:06,320 It would fill up your local high school gym that you go to a 529 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:06,942 basketball game. 530 00:29:06,942 --> 00:29:10,116 Every single seat would be completely full, packed to the 531 00:29:10,217 --> 00:29:10,657 gills. 532 00:29:10,657 --> 00:29:13,063 And that's 500 people. 533 00:29:13,063 --> 00:29:17,612 And it's hard to imagine large numbers. 534 00:29:17,612 --> 00:29:21,433 So when you say something like hey, if you've got 1000 users, 535 00:29:21,513 --> 00:29:25,656 or you've got five or 10,000 users and you putivities or 536 00:29:25,676 --> 00:29:28,919 something, and every single one of them was a user of yours, do 537 00:29:29,439 --> 00:29:30,519 you ever just imagine? 538 00:29:30,519 --> 00:29:48,997 Because it's just a number on a screen sometimes, but it's not, 539 00:29:48,997 --> 00:29:50,058 that's an actual person. 540 00:29:51,603 --> 00:29:54,710 Hisham Khaki: Yeah, I always think that way actually, and 541 00:29:54,730 --> 00:29:57,074 it's funny you refer to that, because I was reading something 542 00:29:57,515 --> 00:30:00,779 last night and I can't remember where I was reading or what it 543 00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:03,805 was, but it and I don't even know if it's true, so it may not 544 00:30:03,805 --> 00:30:20,036 be true to ever play since 18, whatever, they won't even fill 545 00:30:20,056 --> 00:30:20,336 up one stadium. 546 00:30:20,336 --> 00:30:21,481 And I again, I don't know if that's true, but uh, it was. 547 00:30:21,481 --> 00:30:22,405 You know, it was giving all the numbers. 548 00:30:22,405 --> 00:30:26,215 It said something like if you took every player since 1887 or 549 00:30:26,236 --> 00:30:29,423 whenever major league baseball started, it would account. 550 00:30:29,423 --> 00:30:33,939 It would be like, you know, 40,000 people that wouldn't even 551 00:30:33,939 --> 00:30:35,281 fit in one stadium. 552 00:30:35,281 --> 00:30:37,226 That's generally packed. 553 00:30:37,226 --> 00:30:41,835 So, yeah, whenever I think about any numbers and you know 554 00:30:42,336 --> 00:30:46,804 impressions or users, you always start thinking of, like, you 555 00:30:46,869 --> 00:30:50,377 know, I'm, I'm in this room right now and it feels packed 556 00:30:50,438 --> 00:30:52,321 and there's only 300 people in here. 557 00:30:52,321 --> 00:30:55,713 So imagine what 3 000 people in here feel like. 558 00:30:57,036 --> 00:30:59,199 Nate Shutes: So if you work your way towards a million I mean, 559 00:30:59,239 --> 00:31:10,910 that is such a theoretical number how do you, as an 560 00:31:10,930 --> 00:31:12,093 entrepreneur, stay focused on what you can do today to make 561 00:31:12,113 --> 00:31:13,797 the number bigger, while having this really ambitious goal way 562 00:31:13,877 --> 00:31:14,578 off in the future? 563 00:31:14,578 --> 00:31:20,070 That's going to take a thousand , while having this really 564 00:31:20,090 --> 00:31:21,334 ambitious goal way off in the future, that's going to take a 565 00:31:21,354 --> 00:31:22,297 thousand small decisions over and over and over. 566 00:31:22,297 --> 00:31:24,101 How do you stay motivated in the long-term nature of what it 567 00:31:24,161 --> 00:31:24,843 is that you're building? 568 00:31:28,750 --> 00:31:32,638 Hisham Khaki: Yeah, I think what always keeps me motivated is 569 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,263 the crazy big goal. 570 00:31:35,263 --> 00:31:41,894 To be motivated is the crazy big goal, and then you have to 571 00:31:41,913 --> 00:31:43,618 have that, just so you know what you're working towards and that 572 00:31:43,618 --> 00:31:44,902 you really can make a gigantic impact. 573 00:31:44,902 --> 00:31:49,153 But then if you don't, if you're a founder or you're 574 00:31:49,173 --> 00:31:52,282 leading a big business and you're not able to break that 575 00:31:52,383 --> 00:31:57,488 down into realistic short-term goals, then you're you're never. 576 00:31:57,488 --> 00:31:59,916 I mean you're just going to burn yourself out and feel like 577 00:31:59,936 --> 00:32:00,880 you're never doing enough. 578 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,059 So you've got to set realistic goals, whether they're, you know 579 00:32:05,059 --> 00:32:06,222 , monthly or quarterly. 580 00:32:06,222 --> 00:32:08,674 You know you at least need quarterly. 581 00:32:08,674 --> 00:32:09,817 I think that's the minimum. 582 00:32:10,619 --> 00:32:13,233 Um, you've got to have quarterly goals that are that you can 583 00:32:13,355 --> 00:32:17,532 truly believe in right, that you can actually see it and you can 584 00:32:17,532 --> 00:32:18,798 create a plan to get there. 585 00:32:18,798 --> 00:32:22,030 You know, if I said, hey, we're going to get to a million users 586 00:32:22,030 --> 00:32:23,454 by the end of this year, that's there's. 587 00:32:23,454 --> 00:32:25,318 No, I don't believe that. 588 00:32:25,318 --> 00:32:30,433 I don't believe it yet, but I do believe we can get to our 589 00:32:30,473 --> 00:32:35,161 current goal that we're aimed at at, and just that belief will 590 00:32:35,201 --> 00:32:40,234 get me there and then that'll unlock more belief and I think 591 00:32:40,295 --> 00:32:42,420 that's that's kind of like the process. 592 00:32:42,420 --> 00:32:44,503 You've got to truly believe it. 593 00:32:44,503 --> 00:32:47,175 You get there and you have to understand that once you get 594 00:32:47,257 --> 00:32:49,702 somewhere, it'll unlock further beliefs. 595 00:32:51,130 --> 00:32:51,571 Nate Shutes: I dig that. 596 00:32:51,571 --> 00:32:53,317 What are you most excited about right now? 597 00:32:53,317 --> 00:32:54,731 What are you most? 598 00:32:57,555 --> 00:32:58,415 Hisham Khaki: excited about right now. 599 00:32:58,415 --> 00:33:05,163 Um, I just I love, I love the simplicity of shift swap. 600 00:33:05,163 --> 00:33:08,647 I love, I'm super excited that we were able to kind of pivot 601 00:33:08,667 --> 00:33:09,189 towards it. 602 00:33:09,189 --> 00:33:14,859 We've literally had zero attrition from customers 603 00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:17,755 starting it to leaving it Like it just doesn't happen. 604 00:33:17,755 --> 00:33:21,540 So the impact is there, people love it. 605 00:33:21,540 --> 00:33:22,734 The experience is great. 606 00:33:22,734 --> 00:33:28,361 So it's just really exciting to see something that works and is 607 00:33:28,361 --> 00:33:29,482 truly having an impact. 608 00:33:30,210 --> 00:33:35,436 With Happy Gig Flex, that was tough, that was trying to 609 00:33:35,517 --> 00:33:42,224 implement a different thought process for a lot of employers 610 00:33:42,326 --> 00:33:46,776 out there and what we'd see a lot is that we were losing 611 00:33:46,836 --> 00:33:51,132 almost as many clients as we were gaining every year, and 612 00:33:51,192 --> 00:33:51,955 it's demoralizing. 613 00:33:51,955 --> 00:33:56,441 It wasn't for lack of performance on our end, it was 614 00:33:56,500 --> 00:34:00,844 just companies were using us as a band-aid because they had a 615 00:34:00,884 --> 00:34:04,875 shortage of labor and once they were able to get staffed up, you 616 00:34:04,875 --> 00:34:06,417 know they would stop using us. 617 00:34:06,417 --> 00:34:09,630 So whenever year you're looking back, you're like oh, you know, 618 00:34:09,630 --> 00:34:14,659 we got 25 new customers this past year but we lost 20 619 00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:16,442 demoralizing, right. 620 00:34:16,442 --> 00:34:19,733 But having a platform that really is sticky and is 621 00:34:19,853 --> 00:34:23,643 constantly improving value, learning curve, change curve is 622 00:34:23,722 --> 00:34:23,882 low. 623 00:34:23,882 --> 00:34:25,594 I think that's what I'm most excited about. 624 00:34:26,759 --> 00:34:33,376 Nate Shutes: I'm also imagining the warehouse manager that has 625 00:34:33,657 --> 00:34:34,798 the experience of. 626 00:34:34,858 --> 00:34:37,422 They have to go around and ask for volunteers for a Saturday 627 00:34:37,463 --> 00:34:41,418 shift and they've got to do the attendance write-up and all of 628 00:34:41,478 --> 00:34:43,670 that and that's just kind of part of their normal. 629 00:34:44,612 --> 00:34:49,021 And then you have somebody who's on your platform and that low 630 00:34:49,081 --> 00:34:53,400 level friction is all gone and they're spending their time on 631 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,672 more strategy or more kaizen events or people development, 632 00:34:57,751 --> 00:34:58,233 etc. 633 00:34:58,233 --> 00:35:02,007 So I I don't I'm not surprised at all to hear you say you have 634 00:35:02,067 --> 00:35:06,094 zero percent attrition, because the, the people that are stuck 635 00:35:06,376 --> 00:35:11,405 in the old way can't imagine that there's a solution for the 636 00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:11,831 new way. 637 00:35:11,831 --> 00:35:14,277 And then, once they get there that they are probably saying to 638 00:35:14,277 --> 00:35:16,101 themselves man, why didn't we do this years ago? 639 00:35:16,101 --> 00:35:18,599 I didn't know that there could be a solution to this. 640 00:35:18,599 --> 00:35:26,693 And, going back to this idea of simplicity and lean, you have 641 00:35:26,974 --> 00:35:31,639 redesigned an entire process and removed all the waste from it. 642 00:35:31,639 --> 00:35:36,967 That waste used to be walking and talking and documentation on 643 00:35:36,967 --> 00:35:41,034 attendance, and now it is streamlined, it's efficient. 644 00:35:41,034 --> 00:35:49,996 Do you find joy in that Of knowing you've applied all of 645 00:35:50,036 --> 00:35:52,940 your engineering thinking and your care for people into 646 00:35:52,981 --> 00:36:02,891 something that, if it's going, really really well, nobody even 647 00:36:02,911 --> 00:36:03,112 notices. 648 00:36:03,132 --> 00:36:03,672 Hisham Khaki: It makes me so happy. 649 00:36:03,672 --> 00:36:04,193 It makes me so happy. 650 00:36:04,193 --> 00:36:05,757 I had a customer tell me, um, this is probably about a year 651 00:36:05,797 --> 00:36:11,012 ago, and this was a three PL customer, and they were telling 652 00:36:11,052 --> 00:36:15,538 me that they were on a phone call with their customer, which 653 00:36:15,597 --> 00:36:20,565 their customer huge, you know, fortune, probably 100 company 654 00:36:21,632 --> 00:36:25,938 and this Fortune 100 company is on a call with all of their 655 00:36:26,018 --> 00:36:29,644 three PLs managing all their distribution centers across the 656 00:36:29,684 --> 00:36:33,619 country and they were having some sort of an emergency. 657 00:36:33,619 --> 00:36:39,233 And they were having some sort of an emergency and they're 658 00:36:39,253 --> 00:36:41,137 telling all their three pls hey, you know, you've, you have got 659 00:36:41,157 --> 00:36:43,862 to get so-and-so product out the door, you know, by tomorrow 660 00:36:43,943 --> 00:36:44,951 evening or whatever it was. 661 00:36:44,951 --> 00:36:50,561 And we strongly recommend you get an extra 20 people to work 662 00:36:50,581 --> 00:36:51,143 overtime. 663 00:36:51,143 --> 00:36:53,132 I'm making up numbers, but it's something like that. 664 00:36:53,132 --> 00:36:55,135 You know, you get an extra number of people, um, to work 665 00:36:55,155 --> 00:36:55,356 overtime. 666 00:36:55,356 --> 00:36:57,039 I'm making up numbers, but it was something like that. 667 00:36:57,039 --> 00:36:58,222 You know, you get an extra number of people to work in 668 00:36:58,242 --> 00:36:58,922 order to make this happen. 669 00:36:58,943 --> 00:37:02,853 And our customer, of course, the general manager, right away he 670 00:37:02,873 --> 00:37:07,262 gets on shift swap and he posts the shifts and within minutes, 671 00:37:08,672 --> 00:37:11,237 if they're all filled, and he speaks up. 672 00:37:11,237 --> 00:37:14,893 Right, I can't remember what happened, but on this call with 673 00:37:15,054 --> 00:37:19,161 this huge company, it gets out that, hey, we've already filled 674 00:37:19,202 --> 00:37:19,824 all the shifts. 675 00:37:19,824 --> 00:37:22,469 And they were like, what, how did you do that? 676 00:37:22,469 --> 00:37:26,159 Did you already send your supervisors to walk the floor? 677 00:37:26,159 --> 00:37:28,918 You already put a break room sign up sheet? 678 00:37:28,918 --> 00:37:29,438 What did you do? 679 00:37:29,438 --> 00:37:32,527 And he's like, oh, we've got the system that does it 680 00:37:32,547 --> 00:37:32,969 automatically. 681 00:37:32,969 --> 00:37:34,490 And he's like, oh, we've got the system that does it 682 00:37:34,550 --> 00:37:34,811 automatically. 683 00:37:34,811 --> 00:37:38,092 And it was like, when I heard that story, it's just like the 684 00:37:38,152 --> 00:37:39,932 values of mine you were talking about earlier. 685 00:37:39,932 --> 00:37:41,994 That makes me so happy. 686 00:37:43,394 --> 00:37:46,755 Nate Shutes: Just being effective and efficient at 687 00:37:49,016 --> 00:37:49,757 physical work. 688 00:37:50,938 --> 00:37:56,880 Yeah, it is simple stuff, but you hit the nail on the head so 689 00:37:56,981 --> 00:37:58,601 well that we overcomplicate it. 690 00:37:58,601 --> 00:38:03,163 That is our nature is to overcomplicate it, and so this 691 00:38:03,242 --> 00:38:08,485 struggle towards a simpler solution that is both cost 692 00:38:08,525 --> 00:38:12,447 effective and good for the bottom line and good for the 693 00:38:12,487 --> 00:38:14,728 people, no wonder you're having fun. 694 00:38:14,728 --> 00:38:22,851 No wonder you're having fun, no wonder you're having success. 695 00:38:22,851 --> 00:38:24,177 Um, I can keep talking to you about this for hours. 696 00:38:24,177 --> 00:38:25,000 Now I just want to do my own. 697 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:25,159 Let's. 698 00:38:25,159 --> 00:38:26,746 Let's blueprint out some workflows, and I need to get 699 00:38:26,766 --> 00:38:30,255 back in and redo some racking in a facility now, because that's 700 00:38:30,577 --> 00:38:36,592 I love that part of fulfillment myself, and so it's always good 701 00:38:36,632 --> 00:38:40,498 to be able to talk shop with somebody who is clearly a pro at 702 00:38:40,498 --> 00:38:44,565 it and has that same level of love for the subject matter. 703 00:38:47,835 --> 00:38:51,894 Hisham Khaki: Yeah, I love it, but what makes it really work is 704 00:38:51,894 --> 00:38:54,581 our developers, our development team. 705 00:38:54,581 --> 00:38:57,760 I have no clue how to code anything. 706 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,438 I don't know anything about computer science. 707 00:39:00,438 --> 00:39:03,670 I struggled in college with the couple classes I took and that 708 00:39:03,690 --> 00:39:06,757 was actually one of my biggest fears starting up a technology 709 00:39:06,797 --> 00:39:07,038 company. 710 00:39:07,038 --> 00:39:07,980 It was like what? 711 00:39:08,942 --> 00:39:09,483 Nate Shutes: Understandable. 712 00:39:10,510 --> 00:39:11,996 Hisham Khaki: I don't know how I'm going to do this, but I've 713 00:39:12,016 --> 00:39:12,599 got the idea. 714 00:39:12,599 --> 00:39:16,391 But our development team, they're incredible and you just 715 00:39:16,471 --> 00:39:22,099 give them the vision and they create the most streamlined 716 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,050 experience ever since the Happy Gig Flex days and they've just 717 00:39:27,070 --> 00:39:29,753 gotten better and better and stronger in making that vision a 718 00:39:29,753 --> 00:39:30,253 reality. 719 00:39:30,253 --> 00:39:36,159 So I love it and I love how I get to watch these incredible 720 00:39:36,980 --> 00:39:41,905 computer science engineers develop this stuff and be 721 00:39:41,965 --> 00:39:43,326 experts in their subject matter. 722 00:39:43,326 --> 00:39:48,277 Yeah, yeah, they love seeing how many people they're 723 00:39:48,338 --> 00:39:48,878 impacting. 724 00:39:48,878 --> 00:39:51,003 It's fun all around. 725 00:39:56,269 --> 00:39:56,530 Nate Shutes: Well, I dig it. 726 00:39:56,530 --> 00:39:57,172 I shared this with you before. 727 00:39:57,172 --> 00:39:58,456 But I never know where we're going to go in a conversation, 728 00:39:58,476 --> 00:40:01,503 because I am fascinated by everyone's journeys and the 729 00:40:02,306 --> 00:40:05,253 turns that they take and the things that motivate them and 730 00:40:05,293 --> 00:40:08,442 the deep why behind what they're building. 731 00:40:08,442 --> 00:40:12,840 And it's been seven and a half-ish years for you on this 732 00:40:12,940 --> 00:40:13,141 run. 733 00:40:13,141 --> 00:40:15,617 I can't wait to see what the next stretch of the road looks 734 00:40:15,657 --> 00:40:16,260 like for you. 735 00:40:16,260 --> 00:40:18,695 I have no doubt you're going to continue to grow and be 736 00:40:18,755 --> 00:40:19,358 successful. 737 00:40:19,358 --> 00:40:20,400 We have to stay in touch. 738 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,079 I want to hear an update from you in a year on the latest 739 00:40:24,119 --> 00:40:27,032 goings on with ShiftSwap and in the meantime, just know that 740 00:40:27,052 --> 00:40:29,340 we're all rooting for you, thank you, Nate. 741 00:40:29,911 --> 00:40:33,260 Hisham Khaki: Yeah, you've been a huge supporter ever since we 742 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:33,541 met. 743 00:40:33,541 --> 00:40:37,672 You've been a huge supporter ever since we met. 744 00:40:37,692 --> 00:40:37,853 When was? 745 00:40:37,853 --> 00:40:38,815 I think we met three, four years ago, probably. 746 00:40:38,815 --> 00:40:40,998 Yeah, I love, I've loved watching your journey as well. 747 00:40:40,998 --> 00:40:45,275 Just, I mean, you do so much from you know, even last time we 748 00:40:45,275 --> 00:40:48,963 were talking, you noticed that the furniture in my office came 749 00:40:49,030 --> 00:40:51,153 from your facility, right. 750 00:40:51,153 --> 00:40:56,043 So you make all that happen and you do this really, really cool 751 00:40:56,043 --> 00:40:59,918 thing where you're getting the stories of founders out there 752 00:41:00,059 --> 00:41:02,447 for other people to hear, because it's daunting, like 753 00:41:02,467 --> 00:41:05,856 being a founder, especially bootstrap, I mean, everything is 754 00:41:05,856 --> 00:41:08,050 challenging, right, even if you raise a bunch of money, that 755 00:41:08,090 --> 00:41:12,422 has its own problems, but you focused on bootstrappers. 756 00:41:12,422 --> 00:41:15,614 Uh, it's really cool that you're getting people's story 757 00:41:15,695 --> 00:41:17,353 out there and I applaud you for doing it. 758 00:41:17,994 --> 00:41:20,059 Nate Shutes: Thank you, I appreciate that and I receive it 759 00:41:20,059 --> 00:41:21,371 in the spirit in which you shared it. 760 00:41:21,371 --> 00:41:25,059 So thank you again for sharing your story today and we will 761 00:41:25,079 --> 00:41:25,981 catch up soon, my friend. 762 00:41:26,990 --> 00:41:27,393 Hisham Khaki: All right, buddy. 763 00:41:27,393 --> 00:41:28,297 Thank you so much Nate. 764 00:41:31,090 --> 00:41:33,016 Nate Shutes: Thanks for listening to another episode of 765 00:41:33,036 --> 00:41:35,952 the Bootstrappers Guide to Logistics, and a special thank 766 00:41:35,992 --> 00:41:38,760 you to our sponsors and the team behind the scenes who make it 767 00:41:38,820 --> 00:41:39,362 all possible. 768 00:41:39,362 --> 00:41:42,878 Be sure to like, follow or subscribe to the podcast to get 769 00:41:42,898 --> 00:41:43,681 the latest updates. 770 00:41:43,681 --> 00:41:46,737 To learn more about the show and connect with the growing 771 00:41:46,777 --> 00:41:49,835 community of entrepreneurs, visit logisticsfounderscom. 772 00:41:49,835 --> 00:41:53,980 And, of course, thank you to all the founders who trust us to 773 00:41:53,980 --> 00:41:54,722 share their stories.