1 00:00:33,262 --> 00:00:35,267 Nate Shutes: Hello and welcome to the Bootstrapper's Guide to 2 00:00:35,307 --> 00:00:37,932 Logistics, the podcast highlighting founders doing it 3 00:00:37,951 --> 00:00:39,634 the way that doesn't get a lot of attention. 4 00:00:39,634 --> 00:00:42,567 We're here to change that by sharing their stories and 5 00:00:42,606 --> 00:00:44,070 inspiring others to take the leap. 6 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,167 Casey Winans: It's a roller coaster ride that you might 7 00:00:47,287 --> 00:00:48,010 ultimately fail. 8 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:50,567 Nate Shutes: That's when I kind of knew I was on to something. 9 00:00:51,281 --> 00:00:52,146 Casey Winans: It was very hard. 10 00:00:52,620 --> 00:00:54,548 Nate Shutes: It truly is building a legacy. 11 00:00:54,548 --> 00:00:58,600 The more life you live, the more wisdom you have, because, 12 00:00:58,661 --> 00:01:01,751 we are where we're supposed to be kind of answering the call. 13 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,688 Don't shoulder entrepreneurship on your own. 14 00:01:04,688 --> 00:01:06,643 I'm your host, nate Schutz. 15 00:01:06,643 --> 00:01:09,671 Let's build something together from the ground up. 16 00:01:09,671 --> 00:01:15,707 Good morning, everybody, or good afternoon, depending on 17 00:01:15,728 --> 00:01:16,751 when you're listening to this. 18 00:01:16,751 --> 00:01:18,745 Welcome back to the Bootstrapper's Guide to 19 00:01:18,784 --> 00:01:19,346 Logistics. 20 00:01:19,927 --> 00:01:22,522 We are doing exactly what we've been doing for years. 21 00:01:22,522 --> 00:01:26,111 There's really no change to the structure or format of Season 3 22 00:01:26,111 --> 00:01:26,111 . 23 00:01:26,111 --> 00:01:29,748 We're just doing the same thing we've always done unpacking the 24 00:01:29,748 --> 00:01:32,503 journeys of founders that are building supply chain and 25 00:01:32,524 --> 00:01:35,510 logistics companies the old-fashioned way, with their 26 00:01:35,650 --> 00:01:38,356 own resources, supply chain and logistics companies the old 27 00:01:38,376 --> 00:01:42,820 fashioned way, with their own resources being scrappy, not 28 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:43,423 getting a ton of attention. 29 00:01:43,423 --> 00:01:45,108 And I love bringing attention to that myself, because I feel 30 00:01:45,128 --> 00:01:47,894 like it's too easy to get lost in the venture capital world or 31 00:01:48,016 --> 00:01:51,626 the PR, the social media machine that makes it look like 32 00:01:51,786 --> 00:01:56,784 everybody's a unicorn, when the reality is the 99% of businesses 33 00:01:56,784 --> 00:02:00,805 out there are small businesses and they've got small business 34 00:02:00,844 --> 00:02:01,346 challenges. 35 00:02:01,346 --> 00:02:03,552 But it doesn't mean they've got small thinking. 36 00:02:03,552 --> 00:02:05,746 It actually means that they've got really strategic thinking 37 00:02:05,787 --> 00:02:11,207 because they are committed to their own vision, mostly free of 38 00:02:11,207 --> 00:02:15,682 outside influence, and that's maybe one of the most American 39 00:02:16,384 --> 00:02:18,480 dream kind of storylines that's out there. 40 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,987 So I love getting to do this with everybody each week. 41 00:02:22,368 --> 00:02:25,622 Thank you for all of those that have followed us. 42 00:02:25,622 --> 00:02:30,072 We're at the 100 episode mark right around now and if you've 43 00:02:30,111 --> 00:02:32,183 been here from the beginning, I just want to say thank you. 44 00:02:32,183 --> 00:02:35,531 I couldn't do it without you and without our sponsors. 45 00:02:35,531 --> 00:02:36,831 So this week we're going to do the same sponsors. 46 00:02:36,831 --> 00:02:39,324 So this week we're going to do the same thing, but this time 47 00:02:39,344 --> 00:02:41,972 we're going to go deep, with Casey Winans, who's the founder 48 00:02:41,991 --> 00:02:47,550 and CEO of Full Stride, a WMS and tech consulting firm based 49 00:02:47,590 --> 00:02:48,110 in the US. 50 00:02:48,110 --> 00:02:49,593 Casey, good morning. 51 00:02:49,593 --> 00:02:54,187 First, it's great to finally get a chance to go deep on a 52 00:02:54,228 --> 00:02:55,510 subject that I love warehousing. 53 00:02:55,510 --> 00:02:58,222 I know you're an expert, but it's also our first chance 54 00:02:58,262 --> 00:03:00,948 getting to really meet and talk in person. 55 00:03:00,948 --> 00:03:04,562 So, good morning, how are you, and thanks for being here. 56 00:03:05,022 --> 00:03:07,628 Casey Winans: Yeah, great to be here, and yes, I know we've 57 00:03:07,689 --> 00:03:10,645 interacted on LinkedIn for probably a couple years now, so 58 00:03:11,146 --> 00:03:12,631 it's nice to put a face to a name as well. 59 00:03:14,140 --> 00:03:15,223 Nate Shutes: So why don't you start, casey? 60 00:03:15,223 --> 00:03:17,909 Just give us a little bit of overview so our listeners know 61 00:03:18,592 --> 00:03:19,914 who you are, what you've done. 62 00:03:19,914 --> 00:03:23,764 You know kind of career-wise, leading up to what your life has 63 00:03:23,764 --> 00:03:24,888 been like as an entrepreneur. 64 00:03:25,248 --> 00:03:27,061 Casey Winans: Sure, yeah, I mean , I came out of the gate. 65 00:03:27,061 --> 00:03:32,251 I went to school for management information systems at Penn 66 00:03:32,270 --> 00:03:32,551 State. 67 00:03:32,551 --> 00:03:36,889 That morphed into getting an internship at GE up in Erie, 68 00:03:36,930 --> 00:03:39,163 pennsylvania, where they made locomotives. 69 00:03:39,163 --> 00:03:42,632 They may still They've been sold there's a new name on the 70 00:03:43,681 --> 00:03:47,329 outside but effectively that's where I got to really cut my 71 00:03:47,389 --> 00:03:51,546 teeth and I would say, based on that and the next couple of 72 00:03:51,608 --> 00:03:55,062 roles I did, I was more in the software engineering realm of 73 00:03:55,082 --> 00:03:55,364 things. 74 00:03:55,364 --> 00:03:57,810 I built some products after I moved on from GE. 75 00:03:57,810 --> 00:04:01,840 Reverse auctions for procurement that was something 76 00:04:01,900 --> 00:04:02,943 that was done in Pennsylvania. 77 00:04:02,943 --> 00:04:07,538 There is like a Commonwealth nonprofit that turned in and 78 00:04:07,558 --> 00:04:09,903 spun out as a startup. 79 00:04:10,085 --> 00:04:14,693 After that I worked for probably about an $80 million company 80 00:04:14,734 --> 00:04:19,204 that was a middleman and bought print cartridges and old cell 81 00:04:19,223 --> 00:04:22,814 phones, refurb them to an extent and then sold them for other 82 00:04:23,336 --> 00:04:27,826 purposes down the line and we built all our systems in-house. 83 00:04:27,826 --> 00:04:30,592 So that was my first taste of warehouse management systems, 84 00:04:31,161 --> 00:04:32,524 parcel manifesting systems. 85 00:04:32,524 --> 00:04:36,331 In fact, my first gig what were my first, I guess, project when 86 00:04:36,331 --> 00:04:41,932 I started was this 200 page printout of the ups spec and 87 00:04:41,971 --> 00:04:45,600 like build a system that we can so we can create our own labels 88 00:04:45,781 --> 00:04:49,369 and do these uh ars labels, authorized, authorized return 89 00:04:49,389 --> 00:04:52,403 service, uh, and I didn't know that was unusual. 90 00:04:52,403 --> 00:04:54,069 So I did that, built those out. 91 00:04:54,069 --> 00:04:54,971 It worked really well. 92 00:04:54,971 --> 00:04:58,182 But after working there for a couple of years they were 93 00:04:58,201 --> 00:05:02,952 realizing that in-house software was kind of rough to maintain 94 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,052 right, you were always making tweaks versus being strategic. 95 00:05:06,052 --> 00:05:10,105 So they started looking at vendors and, totally 96 00:05:10,125 --> 00:05:13,072 coincidental, they were looking at a company called Red Prairie 97 00:05:14,161 --> 00:05:16,920 and I was looking to move to North Carolina with my family 98 00:05:17,002 --> 00:05:20,495 just for other opportunities and I took a job working for Red 99 00:05:20,535 --> 00:05:20,836 Prairie. 100 00:05:20,836 --> 00:05:24,225 I didn't know that at the time, I didn't connect the dots, but 101 00:05:24,666 --> 00:05:27,622 I mean this whole time this is probably the first few years of 102 00:05:27,661 --> 00:05:30,432 my career I had no idea I was in supply chain. 103 00:05:30,432 --> 00:05:33,762 I didn't understand the concept of warehouse management system. 104 00:05:33,762 --> 00:05:35,386 It was just these systems we built. 105 00:05:35,386 --> 00:05:36,988 They were business systems in my mind. 106 00:05:37,911 --> 00:05:42,302 I was a software engineer that's what I do but taking the job at 107 00:05:42,302 --> 00:05:44,951 RepRary turned me into a consultant on the technical side 108 00:05:44,951 --> 00:05:47,810 anyways, the first couple of years and I was working with big 109 00:05:47,810 --> 00:05:50,940 companies rolling out very complex software, lots of 110 00:05:50,980 --> 00:05:55,629 customizations, integrations, and that morphed into an 111 00:05:55,689 --> 00:05:58,675 opportunity to lead the Parcel Consulting Group inside of the 112 00:05:58,740 --> 00:06:02,689 professional services, because I raised my hand, called out some 113 00:06:02,689 --> 00:06:04,242 things that were happening in the product side. 114 00:06:04,242 --> 00:06:07,290 I had a background in it that I didn't appreciate for it and 115 00:06:07,310 --> 00:06:09,362 that gave me the opportunity to move into management. 116 00:06:09,362 --> 00:06:11,108 So I instantly went in. 117 00:06:11,108 --> 00:06:15,826 I had 15 people reporting to me and I was tasked with fixing 118 00:06:15,887 --> 00:06:18,262 projects across the whole spectrum of different verticals, 119 00:06:18,262 --> 00:06:22,011 because Parcel was seen as getting a tracking number and 120 00:06:22,130 --> 00:06:24,584 all the things that happened behind the scenes in terms of 121 00:06:24,665 --> 00:06:27,673 like the rules out there, interfacing with carriers, 122 00:06:28,019 --> 00:06:29,083 specifications changing. 123 00:06:29,083 --> 00:06:31,990 No one really understood it until they went live and things 124 00:06:32,011 --> 00:06:32,372 didn't work. 125 00:06:32,372 --> 00:06:36,245 So I spent that time teaching my team and getting that all 126 00:06:36,266 --> 00:06:39,490 taken care of and I did that for about a year and a half. 127 00:06:39,490 --> 00:06:43,321 And then I followed a mentor to a 3PL in Canada. 128 00:06:43,321 --> 00:06:46,067 Like there you go, they're going to expand into the US. 129 00:06:46,067 --> 00:06:49,142 I'm going to learn the outside part of the vendor equation 130 00:06:49,723 --> 00:06:51,307 Still lots of clients coming and going. 131 00:06:51,307 --> 00:06:53,880 So there's a good mix and I did that. 132 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:54,523 I learned a ton. 133 00:06:55,225 --> 00:06:57,660 But right, right about that time about a year and a half into 134 00:06:57,699 --> 00:07:02,048 that so this is probably mid-2013 jda and repair emerged 135 00:07:02,790 --> 00:07:07,247 and the messaging was awful that basically jda came in. 136 00:07:07,247 --> 00:07:09,958 They were used to all these turnkey systems on their side, 137 00:07:10,017 --> 00:07:10,940 more planning up front. 138 00:07:10,940 --> 00:07:14,009 Where you have a problem, turn the lights off at five, come 139 00:07:14,028 --> 00:07:16,083 back in at nine o'clock next morning and deal with it. 140 00:07:16,083 --> 00:07:18,271 Well, on the warehouse, the warehouse management space, it's 141 00:07:18,271 --> 00:07:21,603 24, seven, you're not shipping, you're not making money and 142 00:07:21,663 --> 00:07:22,004 I'll help. 143 00:07:22,004 --> 00:07:23,387 Everything's going to fall apart. 144 00:07:24,050 --> 00:07:28,182 So it was an awesome opportunity for myself and two other guys 145 00:07:28,202 --> 00:07:31,958 that I knew to hang our shingle and start a consulting business. 146 00:07:31,958 --> 00:07:36,290 So my first business and we had no grand plans, it was just 147 00:07:36,550 --> 00:07:37,151 opportunistic. 148 00:07:37,151 --> 00:07:41,228 You know, mercenaries out there for hire until until this new 149 00:07:41,288 --> 00:07:44,622 JDA figured out how to plug the hole and then you know, 150 00:07:44,862 --> 00:07:46,487 basically, you know, eat our lunch. 151 00:07:46,487 --> 00:07:48,891 But I fast forward five years. 152 00:07:48,891 --> 00:07:51,685 We had about 60 people working for us. 153 00:07:51,685 --> 00:07:54,470 We were doing, we were on pace to do about 12 million the year. 154 00:07:54,470 --> 00:07:58,564 That that I pulled away and I it just kept growing, you know 155 00:07:58,584 --> 00:08:01,771 so you you for help me understand this then. 156 00:08:01,790 --> 00:08:04,084 Nate Shutes: So you spend about 10 or 12 years kind of building 157 00:08:04,144 --> 00:08:07,958 the technical knowledge you know both both from a programming 158 00:08:07,997 --> 00:08:10,324 perspective and then you're going out into these various 159 00:08:10,966 --> 00:08:16,908 domains and learning how to apply your technical skills to 160 00:08:16,949 --> 00:08:19,766 different business problems and you fall in love with this one. 161 00:08:19,766 --> 00:08:26,607 But there had to have been a moment where you're leaving the 162 00:08:26,666 --> 00:08:32,575 relative or perceived safety of a corporate job or a W-2 maybe, 163 00:08:34,460 --> 00:08:36,747 and you're like, hey, let's go do this thing on our own. 164 00:08:36,747 --> 00:08:37,831 And it was scary. 165 00:08:37,831 --> 00:08:39,764 Did you guys just like sit around it? 166 00:08:39,764 --> 00:08:42,225 Were you at a bar I'm just picturing you with a cocktail 167 00:08:42,266 --> 00:08:44,865 napkin and you're sketching out a strategy, or was it lunchtime 168 00:08:45,481 --> 00:08:46,104 or how did what? 169 00:08:46,104 --> 00:08:51,671 Was that day like when you and your partner or partners said, 170 00:08:51,839 --> 00:08:52,805 okay, we're going to do this? 171 00:08:54,060 --> 00:08:55,024 Casey Winans: It played out like that. 172 00:08:55,024 --> 00:08:58,431 So I guess the backup. 173 00:08:58,431 --> 00:09:01,991 I was looking to move on from the 3PL because there were some 174 00:09:02,212 --> 00:09:04,140 issues where I just wasn't getting the growth I thought I 175 00:09:04,181 --> 00:09:05,244 was promised early on. 176 00:09:05,244 --> 00:09:08,673 And that's why I went and I talked to one of the guys that 177 00:09:08,700 --> 00:09:13,535 became my partner, one of my partners, and he's like let's 178 00:09:13,596 --> 00:09:15,160 not do that, let's build something here. 179 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,909 I got this little bit of traction here with one client, 180 00:09:18,722 --> 00:09:19,667 let's figure out what we do. 181 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,966 And I went back to my wife and I'm like I've always wanted to 182 00:09:22,985 --> 00:09:25,888 do this, honey, because I used to read business magazines like 183 00:09:25,927 --> 00:09:26,289 crazy. 184 00:09:26,289 --> 00:09:28,488 It's just one of those like when do I do it? 185 00:09:28,488 --> 00:09:29,503 And I had actually. 186 00:09:29,503 --> 00:09:38,280 So I guess I had a business before this, one client, a 187 00:09:38,301 --> 00:09:38,682 little bit of work. 188 00:09:38,682 --> 00:09:39,985 I made like 10 great 10 grand and it was awesome. 189 00:09:39,985 --> 00:09:40,605 I'm like it felt so liberating. 190 00:09:40,605 --> 00:09:43,072 But then the 3pl I worked for got wind of it and told me 191 00:09:43,131 --> 00:09:46,927 either go full, full time on that one or hang it up. 192 00:09:46,927 --> 00:09:49,232 And I had one client, a little bit of work. 193 00:09:49,232 --> 00:09:51,604 I'm like I can't feed my family , so I put it away. 194 00:09:52,104 --> 00:09:56,052 But that was the catalyst for you know just that, that 195 00:09:56,272 --> 00:09:59,344 building it up Like I wanted to do it and I was feeling kind of 196 00:09:59,384 --> 00:10:01,870 trapped after that in a W2 role. 197 00:10:01,870 --> 00:10:07,227 So, having that lunch, and then from there we went, to excuse 198 00:10:07,268 --> 00:10:11,438 me, a place called McGregor's Draft House in Cary, north 199 00:10:11,458 --> 00:10:13,326 Carolina, and we had lunch there . 200 00:10:13,326 --> 00:10:16,849 Multiple times we were drinking beer literally in the back of a 201 00:10:16,849 --> 00:10:49,788 napkin, like what are we doing here, how do we, how do we get 202 00:10:49,808 --> 00:10:50,390 this going? 203 00:10:50,390 --> 00:10:53,662 And then we spent probably a couple weeks just trying to 204 00:10:53,682 --> 00:10:55,225 figure out what we call ourselves. 205 00:10:55,225 --> 00:10:59,045 That would comprise the three of us, you know, and uh, and 206 00:10:59,446 --> 00:11:01,410 more or less we kind of came back and said, well, what about 207 00:11:01,450 --> 00:11:02,252 mcgregor partners? 208 00:11:02,252 --> 00:11:04,545 There's a story that's the. 209 00:11:04,545 --> 00:11:08,013 You know it's the, it's the cliched, you know, uh, bar back 210 00:11:08,033 --> 00:11:10,348 of a napkin story, and we're partners. 211 00:11:10,528 --> 00:11:12,375 Nate Shutes: So there you go, let's not, it was a brew house 212 00:11:12,937 --> 00:11:14,081 yeah, yeah exactly yeah. 213 00:11:14,642 --> 00:11:16,387 Casey Winans: So lots of guinness and you know whatever 214 00:11:16,447 --> 00:11:16,748 else was. 215 00:11:16,748 --> 00:11:19,381 You know the local stuff as well, but I yeah, that's how it 216 00:11:19,401 --> 00:11:22,024 came to be that's a fantastic that. 217 00:11:22,165 --> 00:11:28,052 Nate Shutes: So there's a storytelling framework that 218 00:11:28,753 --> 00:11:31,156 explains most movies and books that we've all read. 219 00:11:31,156 --> 00:11:35,223 One of my favorite is the Hero's Journey, and that is the 220 00:11:35,263 --> 00:11:36,447 story of the Matrix. 221 00:11:36,447 --> 00:11:39,004 Is Hero's Journey Lord of the Rings? 222 00:11:39,004 --> 00:11:40,569 Is that as well? 223 00:11:40,569 --> 00:11:45,643 And there is a storytelling element inside of those called 224 00:11:45,683 --> 00:11:46,364 the watering hole. 225 00:11:46,364 --> 00:11:47,545 And there's a storytelling element inside of those called 226 00:11:47,565 --> 00:11:49,607 the watering hole and at a certain point in the journey, 227 00:11:49,647 --> 00:11:53,830 before it goes from being an adventure where things are safe 228 00:11:53,891 --> 00:11:56,873 and fun into being a quest where things are kind of life or 229 00:11:56,913 --> 00:11:59,555 death, there's this they call it . 230 00:11:59,555 --> 00:12:00,736 It's a scene in all these movies. 231 00:12:00,736 --> 00:12:09,161 It's called the watering hole and it's that moment where all 232 00:12:09,181 --> 00:12:10,382 the friends band together and decide to go off on this quest. 233 00:12:10,402 --> 00:12:13,905 And it's fascinating to me how many entrepreneurs have that 234 00:12:13,965 --> 00:12:16,808 same experience of, okay, we're going to leave the relative 235 00:12:16,848 --> 00:12:20,171 safety of the Shire or RW2 and we're going to go off and try to 236 00:12:20,171 --> 00:12:24,274 slay dragons, and we're in this together and we've come up with 237 00:12:24,274 --> 00:12:32,462 the name for our band of misfits and we raise a couple of 238 00:12:32,462 --> 00:12:33,826 glasses and make a toast and that's maybe the last moment 239 00:12:33,847 --> 00:12:35,413 that things were innocent and fun. 240 00:12:35,413 --> 00:12:39,852 And then it gets real and the danger starts. 241 00:12:39,852 --> 00:12:46,012 So the first month that you and your partners are the safety is 242 00:12:46,012 --> 00:12:46,894 now behind you. 243 00:12:46,894 --> 00:12:50,802 Did you like hit the ground running and things were 244 00:12:50,822 --> 00:12:52,426 happening how you thought they would? 245 00:12:52,426 --> 00:12:55,522 Or was it crickets and you couldn't get a customer to say 246 00:12:55,583 --> 00:12:55,803 yes? 247 00:12:55,803 --> 00:12:58,531 Like what was the really really early stage? 248 00:12:58,531 --> 00:13:02,060 Like when you were fully committed? 249 00:13:02,581 --> 00:13:02,941 Casey Winans: Gotcha. 250 00:13:02,941 --> 00:13:05,484 Well, before I dive into that, I want to back up just for a 251 00:13:05,545 --> 00:13:05,885 second. 252 00:13:05,885 --> 00:13:09,649 Sure, there was this conversation I had with my wife 253 00:13:10,731 --> 00:13:13,814 about doing this and leaving the safety of a W-2, or you know, 254 00:13:13,834 --> 00:13:15,656 quote unquote, safety of a W-2. 255 00:13:15,656 --> 00:13:19,516 And her brother was an entrepreneur, basically like 256 00:13:19,617 --> 00:13:20,240 right out of high school. 257 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,090 So I talked to him and he couldn't envision anything else. 258 00:13:23,090 --> 00:13:26,349 So he's like, yeah, bet on yourself, you know the sky's the 259 00:13:26,349 --> 00:13:28,222 limit, envision anything else. 260 00:13:28,222 --> 00:13:29,566 So he's like, yeah, like, bet on yourself, you know the sky's 261 00:13:29,586 --> 00:13:29,807 the limit. 262 00:13:29,807 --> 00:13:31,893 And my wife said the perfect thing to me at that moment in 263 00:13:31,913 --> 00:13:34,902 time was honey, it's just a house, which really implied that 264 00:13:34,902 --> 00:13:37,548 if we lost everything, we still have each other. 265 00:13:37,548 --> 00:13:40,481 We don't care, you know, and that was like freeing, you know. 266 00:13:40,481 --> 00:13:44,367 I teared up, I'm like, okay, I get to get to know, chase my 267 00:13:44,407 --> 00:13:44,868 dream here. 268 00:13:45,429 --> 00:13:49,235 But one of my other partners, literally that month, I actually 269 00:13:49,235 --> 00:13:53,267 you know what, yeah, I had, I had the one partner had a 270 00:13:53,287 --> 00:13:56,183 daughter that was just a couple years old, so, you know, still 271 00:13:56,243 --> 00:13:58,731 on, probably in diapers at that point, if I get the ages right. 272 00:13:58,731 --> 00:14:01,587 And the other one had his second, his youngest, the 273 00:14:01,627 --> 00:14:04,804 daughter, literally that month, or maybe, maybe July, just 274 00:14:04,844 --> 00:14:05,487 before August. 275 00:14:05,487 --> 00:14:10,467 So like we're all like, like we're in it, but at the same 276 00:14:10,487 --> 00:14:12,333 time, like stakes are high, we're nervous, uh. 277 00:14:12,333 --> 00:14:14,400 But first month it went, it went awesome. 278 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,326 I mean, it was one of those things where, uh, the one 279 00:14:17,366 --> 00:14:21,741 partner had already broke into a 3pl and they were insatiable. 280 00:14:21,741 --> 00:14:26,251 You know, just more projects, more projects, tons of work. 281 00:14:26,251 --> 00:14:27,934 Our rates weren't great but they were. 282 00:14:27,934 --> 00:14:30,066 They were feeding us and we were doing all the work and we 283 00:14:30,106 --> 00:14:31,531 had one contractor at that point . 284 00:14:32,201 --> 00:14:35,422 But then the beauty of where we came out of because we all came 285 00:14:35,463 --> 00:14:39,387 out of Red Prairie, jda, now it's Blue Yonder is we'd worked 286 00:14:39,407 --> 00:14:43,103 with clients for years, so it was reaching out to our personal 287 00:14:43,103 --> 00:14:45,086 networks and we'd get some work here and there. 288 00:14:45,086 --> 00:14:46,929 It didn't have to be big in those days, it was just 289 00:14:46,989 --> 00:14:50,995 something to kind of move the needle, but the it was just. 290 00:14:50,995 --> 00:14:52,867 It was crazy. 291 00:14:52,867 --> 00:14:54,206 We were working 80 hour weeks. 292 00:14:54,206 --> 00:14:55,485 We were killing ourselves. 293 00:14:55,485 --> 00:14:56,408 It was. 294 00:14:56,408 --> 00:14:59,309 It was not fun, but fun at the same time. 295 00:14:59,309 --> 00:15:00,785 I mean, the money was awesome. 296 00:15:00,885 --> 00:15:03,027 Seeing that come in like it just opened my world. 297 00:15:03,027 --> 00:15:03,667 We just opened my world. 298 00:15:03,667 --> 00:15:04,488 We were all making low six figures. 299 00:15:04,488 --> 00:15:07,070 Before you know we had moved up to director roles. 300 00:15:07,070 --> 00:15:12,674 So it was like we're quickly surpassing that, wow, okay, uh, 301 00:15:13,554 --> 00:15:14,895 we're gonna need to hire at some point. 302 00:15:14,895 --> 00:15:17,057 So I mean we can kind of get into that piece there too. 303 00:15:17,057 --> 00:15:19,282 But it was just gangbusters and we started getting other 304 00:15:19,302 --> 00:15:21,087 clients coming in and they wanted something. 305 00:15:21,087 --> 00:15:26,106 But by and large we had dhl where it was excel logistics. 306 00:15:26,166 --> 00:15:27,849 At that point DHL turned into. 307 00:15:27,849 --> 00:15:31,984 I mean, you know, they're massive, so we would work for 308 00:15:32,125 --> 00:15:32,706 one director. 309 00:15:32,706 --> 00:15:35,686 Another director will pull us in more projects, clients coming 310 00:15:35,686 --> 00:15:36,088 and going. 311 00:15:36,088 --> 00:15:40,507 So there was just a whole lot of complexity there and we were 312 00:15:40,547 --> 00:15:43,760 there to pick up the pieces and definitely augment their teams 313 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,510 because we had the depth where a lot of their teams internally 314 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:51,747 they were closer to operation, they didn't know the systems as 315 00:15:51,767 --> 00:15:53,132 well and we could get in and do just about anything in it, even 316 00:15:53,153 --> 00:15:56,646 the nasty, complex, hairy stuff behind the scenes so you're 317 00:15:56,686 --> 00:15:59,497 doing a combination, then, of kind of consulting, 318 00:15:59,718 --> 00:16:02,304 implementation plus software development, kind of 319 00:16:02,344 --> 00:16:03,045 simultaneously. 320 00:16:03,065 --> 00:16:04,868 Nate Shutes: Very much, yeah, very much yeah. 321 00:16:04,868 --> 00:16:11,323 As a business model, consulting is very conducive to, and that 322 00:16:11,343 --> 00:16:13,622 kind of work is very conducive to bootstrapping, because you 323 00:16:13,662 --> 00:16:17,215 don't have to hire, you're not going to get paid yourself for a 324 00:16:17,215 --> 00:16:20,001 while usually, but you're not having to buy equipment, you're 325 00:16:20,021 --> 00:16:24,090 not having to sign a lease or hire a massive staff. 326 00:16:24,090 --> 00:16:27,910 And so how did you and your partners think about cash flow 327 00:16:28,922 --> 00:16:33,253 and keeping the lights on as the business started to grow? 328 00:16:33,253 --> 00:16:36,029 And okay, now we've got to make a couple of different decisions 329 00:16:36,029 --> 00:16:36,029 . 330 00:16:36,029 --> 00:16:38,728 You're getting paid a little bit, but now we've got to take a 331 00:16:38,728 --> 00:16:38,929 risk. 332 00:16:38,929 --> 00:16:41,483 We've got to hire some outsiders, we've got to maybe 333 00:16:41,523 --> 00:16:45,764 get an office and the expense structure changes, which, for 334 00:16:45,805 --> 00:16:47,640 bootstrappers, can be really, really uncomfortable. 335 00:16:48,522 --> 00:16:51,887 Casey Winans: Yeah, well the beauty of what we were doing. 336 00:16:52,248 --> 00:16:56,341 We traveled all the time so, and all of us lived in the raleigh 337 00:16:56,421 --> 00:16:58,948 area at that point, but we didn't need an office because 338 00:16:58,988 --> 00:17:00,640 there was no no one there to do it. 339 00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:03,448 So we would work from each other's homes, if we had to, to 340 00:17:03,488 --> 00:17:05,741 meet up to figure out something, you know logistically around 341 00:17:05,761 --> 00:17:09,451 the business itself, and just daydream and figure out where 342 00:17:09,471 --> 00:17:12,702 we're going, what's working, what's not working, how do we go 343 00:17:12,702 --> 00:17:13,144 forward. 344 00:17:13,144 --> 00:17:16,372 But some of the things I learned from the 3PL I worked 345 00:17:16,412 --> 00:17:21,434 with since I was one of just a small handful of US employees at 346 00:17:21,434 --> 00:17:24,462 that point is they use something called a PEO, a 347 00:17:24,522 --> 00:17:27,788 professional employer organization, and they take care 348 00:17:27,788 --> 00:17:31,580 of a lot of the HR pieces where we effectively, our employees 349 00:17:31,622 --> 00:17:34,269 of our business, are at least to them or at least back to. 350 00:17:34,269 --> 00:17:37,521 Somehow, I don't know, you can work up PEO, but it was a great 351 00:17:37,541 --> 00:17:40,931 way for us to get benefits very quickly, manage payroll, all 352 00:17:40,971 --> 00:17:41,271 these things. 353 00:17:41,271 --> 00:17:44,730 So we had this stuff set up so we could put the contractors in 354 00:17:44,750 --> 00:17:45,251 there as well. 355 00:17:45,251 --> 00:17:49,041 And suddenly you know we could. 356 00:17:49,041 --> 00:17:51,027 We could out compete with some of the other consulting firms 357 00:17:51,047 --> 00:17:53,682 that were popping up at the same time in our same space because 358 00:17:53,843 --> 00:17:55,166 they didn't know those things. 359 00:17:55,448 --> 00:17:57,882 So yeah, it's going to be something I was exposed to and 360 00:17:58,585 --> 00:18:01,092 you know, wearing my business hat, I'm like that's really 361 00:18:01,153 --> 00:18:01,474 smart. 362 00:18:01,474 --> 00:18:04,401 So instantly we got that going, uh. 363 00:18:04,401 --> 00:18:06,582 So that was, that was one piece that helped. 364 00:18:06,582 --> 00:18:09,424 But, yeah, we avoided most of the overhead. 365 00:18:09,424 --> 00:18:14,649 Really, we agreed at some point for taking smaller salaries, 366 00:18:14,689 --> 00:18:17,711 something smaller than what we had had before, and then we 367 00:18:17,750 --> 00:18:19,572 worked on the concept of distributions. 368 00:18:20,073 --> 00:18:23,115 Now, one other thing that we did have in our back pocket was one 369 00:18:23,115 --> 00:18:23,756 of the partners. 370 00:18:24,276 --> 00:18:27,881 His dad had had a business for years and he knew some 371 00:18:27,901 --> 00:18:29,124 accountants down in our area. 372 00:18:29,124 --> 00:18:32,812 So myself and one of the partners went down and we just 373 00:18:32,832 --> 00:18:35,065 sat with him and he gave us some advice in terms of how to 374 00:18:35,085 --> 00:18:35,866 structure some of this. 375 00:18:35,866 --> 00:18:38,882 So that was helpful for the distribution thing. 376 00:18:38,882 --> 00:18:43,729 And then I also had my father-in-law very much pressing 377 00:18:43,729 --> 00:18:48,215 to get a really good operating agreement in place with buy sell 378 00:18:48,215 --> 00:18:53,474 language in there which we can get to, because that's the other 379 00:18:53,474 --> 00:18:56,585 story, uh, to really make sure that when everything is going 380 00:18:56,625 --> 00:18:59,638 well, you guys can agree on terms, potentially, how things 381 00:18:59,678 --> 00:19:03,107 dissolve all the things that can get hairy later on if there are 382 00:19:03,107 --> 00:19:04,351 disputes or anything like that. 383 00:19:04,351 --> 00:19:06,584 So we have these things in our favor. 384 00:19:06,584 --> 00:19:11,133 I didn't really appreciate them at that moment, but it worked 385 00:19:11,192 --> 00:19:11,534 out great. 386 00:19:11,534 --> 00:19:13,456 And then I think there's probably a lot of companies out 387 00:19:13,476 --> 00:19:15,817 there that don't understand that and to get into it without it 388 00:19:16,020 --> 00:19:21,063 and hope everything just works out and when it doesn't, that's 389 00:19:21,123 --> 00:19:22,828 not the time to be trying to hash this stuff out. 390 00:19:23,660 --> 00:19:26,870 Nate Shutes: It is an unfortunate and sometimes ironic 391 00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:31,746 reality that the people that you trust the most, that you 392 00:19:31,766 --> 00:19:34,798 want to go into business with you, haven't been tested 393 00:19:34,959 --> 00:19:36,282 together in battle. 394 00:19:36,282 --> 00:19:38,987 You have great ideas together. 395 00:19:38,987 --> 00:19:43,862 You maybe have been co-workers at a company before, and those 396 00:19:44,001 --> 00:19:47,389 operating agreements and partnership agreements matter 397 00:19:47,409 --> 00:19:51,371 the most when things go really really well and there's lots of 398 00:19:51,471 --> 00:19:56,490 money to be split, or when they go really really bad and things 399 00:19:56,529 --> 00:19:57,052 get dicey. 400 00:19:57,052 --> 00:20:02,967 And for most first-time founders I guess I shouldn't say 401 00:20:02,967 --> 00:20:06,244 most for many first-time founders those are uncomfortable 402 00:20:06,244 --> 00:20:10,333 conversations to have early because everything's going well. 403 00:20:10,333 --> 00:20:14,408 Why would I introduce stuff that might be sensitive or might 404 00:20:14,408 --> 00:20:19,446 cause us to not be as close with one another and 405 00:20:20,429 --> 00:20:26,546 uncomfortable at well said, and the reality is, over a long 406 00:20:26,586 --> 00:20:29,371 enough period of time and enough interactions with human beings, 407 00:20:29,371 --> 00:20:34,772 one of the core driving forces is self-interest, and that means 408 00:20:34,772 --> 00:20:35,900 something different to everybody. 409 00:20:36,923 --> 00:20:39,411 You mentioned your co-founders having young children. 410 00:20:39,411 --> 00:20:43,403 They would have totally different personal circumstances 411 00:20:43,403 --> 00:20:46,487 and needs than somebody who's already independently wealthy 412 00:20:46,507 --> 00:20:49,029 and doesn't have any responsibilities, and so those 413 00:20:49,090 --> 00:20:55,960 kinds of agreements can prevent lots of future conflict and in 414 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,850 some cases they can even decide hey, you know what, after we've 415 00:21:00,090 --> 00:21:02,784 gone through this exercise, maybe this structure isn't the 416 00:21:02,824 --> 00:21:06,491 right thing before we even get started, and those are some of 417 00:21:06,513 --> 00:21:09,721 the things that happen when you're a second time founder. 418 00:21:09,721 --> 00:21:11,923 Now you have all of that knowledge and maybe we can 419 00:21:12,024 --> 00:21:14,746 unpack some of that in the next part here. 420 00:21:14,746 --> 00:21:19,548 But if you are considering starting a business and you've 421 00:21:19,568 --> 00:21:24,051 got a buddy or some coworkers or something that you think, hey, 422 00:21:24,091 --> 00:21:29,056 we'd be a great fit to go out and go do this thing, Get an 423 00:21:29,116 --> 00:21:31,152 agreement written up on paper, Talk through. 424 00:21:31,353 --> 00:21:34,081 What percentage of equity is everybody going to own? 425 00:21:34,081 --> 00:21:37,460 What are your responsibilities going to be versus the other 426 00:21:37,500 --> 00:21:37,861 person? 427 00:21:37,861 --> 00:21:40,638 Who's going to be responsible for being the tiebreaker? 428 00:21:40,638 --> 00:21:45,437 When you don't agree and you add those things up, put them on 429 00:21:45,437 --> 00:21:49,354 paper, and your likelihood of avoiding significant issues down 430 00:21:49,354 --> 00:21:53,101 the road just multiplies a hundredfold. 431 00:21:53,101 --> 00:21:56,881 It sounds like, based on what you shared, that you may have 432 00:21:56,921 --> 00:21:58,386 found some challenges down the road. 433 00:21:58,386 --> 00:21:59,510 So what actually happened? 434 00:22:00,312 --> 00:22:02,576 Casey Winans: So we never envisioned it to get as big as 435 00:22:02,636 --> 00:22:02,917 it did. 436 00:22:02,917 --> 00:22:05,984 In fact we were talking about the equity piece you just 437 00:22:06,024 --> 00:22:06,304 mentioned. 438 00:22:06,304 --> 00:22:09,019 So we had accelerators in there . 439 00:22:09,019 --> 00:22:12,920 So the first month getting started we were all making low 440 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:13,522 six figures. 441 00:22:13,522 --> 00:22:15,835 A lot of us had some kind of savings. 442 00:22:15,835 --> 00:22:19,471 But one of them one of the partners had been doing this for 443 00:22:19,471 --> 00:22:23,067 a little longer had some cash and he was able to give us 444 00:22:23,208 --> 00:22:24,835 short-term loans for the first month. 445 00:22:24,835 --> 00:22:27,987 So that was a cash flow piece to get us through before we 446 00:22:28,007 --> 00:22:30,537 started paying ourselves, and the typical net 30. 447 00:22:30,537 --> 00:22:34,385 You work, then you bill and then you wait because they've 448 00:22:34,426 --> 00:22:37,477 come up with excuses of why the invoice isn't ready yet and all 449 00:22:37,738 --> 00:22:38,420 those fun things. 450 00:22:38,420 --> 00:22:40,036 So that got us through it. 451 00:22:40,036 --> 00:22:42,860 But part of that agreement was there were going to be 452 00:22:43,963 --> 00:22:48,309 accelerators in terms of equity based on that and they seem like 453 00:22:48,309 --> 00:22:49,232 big numbers to us. 454 00:22:49,232 --> 00:22:51,099 You know, a couple million here , a couple million there. 455 00:22:51,099 --> 00:22:54,475 We hit those and then ratchet up and then we're pretty close 456 00:22:54,515 --> 00:22:56,840 to all evenly splitting the pot. 457 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,804 So that happened. 458 00:22:58,804 --> 00:23:00,092 That happened pretty quickly. 459 00:23:00,092 --> 00:23:02,476 So then we revisited the operating agreement to kind of 460 00:23:02,697 --> 00:23:04,660 play with what looks like longer term. 461 00:23:04,660 --> 00:23:06,764 But so we did this for five years. 462 00:23:06,764 --> 00:23:08,735 Tons of clients. 463 00:23:08,735 --> 00:23:11,658 We eventually grew to 60 people . 464 00:23:11,658 --> 00:23:16,440 That first hire was really scary that first year because 465 00:23:16,539 --> 00:23:19,275 you know, suddenly we're on the hook for somebody else's 466 00:23:19,355 --> 00:23:19,856 livelihood. 467 00:23:19,856 --> 00:23:22,815 But that worked out well and then we started hiring, you know 468 00:23:22,815 --> 00:23:25,711 , slowly at first, and then we started doing multiple ones, but 469 00:23:25,711 --> 00:23:27,438 so it ended up being about 60 people. 470 00:23:27,438 --> 00:23:30,115 We were on track to do somewhere close to 12 million 471 00:23:30,135 --> 00:23:31,701 the year 2018. 472 00:23:31,721 --> 00:23:38,480 Wow, but probably that fourth year we really started looking 473 00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:41,708 at what do we want to do and two of the partners wanted to go in 474 00:23:41,708 --> 00:23:45,317 and build software and I liked the idea to an extent being 475 00:23:45,356 --> 00:23:46,380 naive, coming into it. 476 00:23:46,380 --> 00:23:50,855 But at the same time, I was also starting to chase something 477 00:23:50,855 --> 00:23:51,879 called managed services. 478 00:23:51,879 --> 00:23:57,418 So we have SLAs and they're paying us for peace of mind 479 00:23:57,478 --> 00:23:59,657 effectively to jump in when things go sideways. 480 00:23:59,657 --> 00:24:01,414 In a warehouse world. 481 00:24:01,414 --> 00:24:02,700 That's really important. 482 00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:06,273 Vendors can't do it or if they do, it's just to fix defects and 483 00:24:06,273 --> 00:24:08,718 maybe some data, not to understand your operation. 484 00:24:08,718 --> 00:24:11,063 So I got into that. 485 00:24:11,243 --> 00:24:13,735 My first client at that point was Advanced Auto and we learned 486 00:24:13,735 --> 00:24:16,211 a ton in terms of how to structure these deals and they 487 00:24:16,250 --> 00:24:17,997 were massively profitable. 488 00:24:17,997 --> 00:24:21,346 So I'm like that's probably our future. 489 00:24:21,346 --> 00:24:22,109 I like that. 490 00:24:22,109 --> 00:24:25,018 It really kind of plays with the implementation side plus 491 00:24:25,259 --> 00:24:28,397 supporting it long-term, but there's always gaps when you're 492 00:24:28,437 --> 00:24:28,959 doing something. 493 00:24:28,959 --> 00:24:30,102 So that's the software realm. 494 00:24:30,102 --> 00:24:31,511 So we started doing that. 495 00:24:31,511 --> 00:24:34,259 We didn't know how to sell, so we were burning cash on 496 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:35,351 employees and all that. 497 00:24:35,351 --> 00:24:39,019 And we got great insights for early customers who didn't turn 498 00:24:39,059 --> 00:24:39,862 into early customers. 499 00:24:39,862 --> 00:24:43,533 And it was just this dividing piece here where it's like, okay 500 00:24:43,533 --> 00:24:45,314 , five years in, what do we want to do? 501 00:24:45,314 --> 00:24:48,177 I like the idea of stepping back to an extent, maybe trying 502 00:24:48,197 --> 00:24:50,759 something different and, you know, being a sign of partner. 503 00:24:50,759 --> 00:24:53,883 One of my partners liked that for a while, but ultimately, two 504 00:24:53,883 --> 00:24:56,245 of them decided they were going to go double down on software 505 00:24:56,726 --> 00:24:57,506 and I'm nodding, you know. 506 00:25:02,110 --> 00:25:04,237 So middle of 2018, they decided that they were going to buy me 507 00:25:04,257 --> 00:25:04,939 out, and you know it was. 508 00:25:04,939 --> 00:25:05,782 It was bittersweet, you know. 509 00:25:05,782 --> 00:25:07,106 It was one of those things where I knew I wasn't happy, but 510 00:25:07,106 --> 00:25:09,712 at the same time, this is my baby and you know these were my 511 00:25:09,773 --> 00:25:13,950 friends and like this is this is tough, but we had to buy a sale 512 00:25:13,950 --> 00:25:14,331 agreement. 513 00:25:14,331 --> 00:25:16,895 So you know I couldn't stop. 514 00:25:16,895 --> 00:25:31,548 I couldn't stop the sale, but I could negotiate, and one of the 515 00:25:31,548 --> 00:25:32,477 things we had in there that was really good was this concept of 516 00:25:32,477 --> 00:25:33,142 we can each go get our own valuation. 517 00:25:33,142 --> 00:25:34,378 You know, in my mind theirs came back very low, which great 518 00:25:34,291 --> 00:25:34,437 you know, it's. 519 00:25:34,437 --> 00:25:34,846 Just it's the bottom part of it . 520 00:25:34,846 --> 00:25:35,484 They were hoping to get me out quickly, maybe because I'm I'm 521 00:25:35,397 --> 00:25:37,584 pretty past and passive that way , in terms of if it's good for 522 00:25:37,604 --> 00:25:39,410 the business, I would do it typically. 523 00:25:39,410 --> 00:25:44,439 But then I went out and I found a great lawyer on my side who 524 00:25:44,818 --> 00:25:49,153 got me in connection with a great appraiser and this guy 525 00:25:50,257 --> 00:25:50,798 that's all he does. 526 00:25:50,798 --> 00:25:54,919 So he came back with all this other information and it was 527 00:25:55,038 --> 00:25:56,743 like double the valuation. 528 00:25:56,743 --> 00:26:02,282 So it took probably this was the middle of 2018. 529 00:26:02,282 --> 00:26:06,480 We probably didn't finalize the negotiation until sometime in 530 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:07,523 November, december. 531 00:26:08,631 --> 00:26:10,356 So it was frustrating, right? 532 00:26:10,356 --> 00:26:13,738 Sure, I bet you know, am I getting paid? 533 00:26:13,738 --> 00:26:14,480 What's going on? 534 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,802 I can't talk to people inside the company for valid reasons. 535 00:26:18,802 --> 00:26:20,797 I mean, I'm not throwing anybody under the bus, I get it. 536 00:26:20,797 --> 00:26:23,091 But it really sucked because I couldn't tell my story and I 537 00:26:23,111 --> 00:26:23,674 just kind of disappeared. 538 00:26:23,695 --> 00:26:25,125 But it really sucked because I couldn't tell my story and I 539 00:26:25,145 --> 00:26:25,630 just kind of disappeared. 540 00:26:25,630 --> 00:26:29,599 And then actually the same day, I was told that they're like 541 00:26:29,619 --> 00:26:30,802 hey, we want to buy you out. 542 00:26:30,802 --> 00:26:34,960 My mother-in-law had a stroke and then she ended up dying two 543 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:35,422 weeks later. 544 00:26:35,422 --> 00:26:39,375 So it was just awful, right, like we were like Alice falling 545 00:26:39,416 --> 00:26:42,633 down the hole, no power thing, our world just getting ripped 546 00:26:42,673 --> 00:26:42,975 apart. 547 00:26:42,975 --> 00:26:44,740 And so we got through that. 548 00:26:44,740 --> 00:26:48,057 We got through the year and this is something that no one 549 00:26:48,096 --> 00:26:49,340 knows, my partners included. 550 00:26:49,340 --> 00:26:54,778 We ended up getting life insurance that kept us afloat, 551 00:26:54,899 --> 00:26:57,304 so I couldn't negotiate for it and have to take a smaller deal. 552 00:26:57,304 --> 00:27:00,015 So it was a blessing, huge blessing. 553 00:27:00,015 --> 00:27:04,490 But at the end of it I had to sign a non-compete for two years 554 00:27:04,490 --> 00:27:08,620 and I got a chunk paid up front and then I got a chunk paid 555 00:27:08,660 --> 00:27:13,134 every year for several years and that kind of got me through 556 00:27:13,756 --> 00:27:15,980 well, pretty much going into COVID, because COVID kind of 557 00:27:16,020 --> 00:27:17,724 really rocked a year later. 558 00:27:17,724 --> 00:27:19,756 But what do you want me to? 559 00:27:19,796 --> 00:27:20,337 Nate Shutes: unpack there. 560 00:27:20,337 --> 00:27:26,322 Well, I mean, first, what I'm picking up on is just how human 561 00:27:26,422 --> 00:27:26,984 all of that is. 562 00:27:26,984 --> 00:27:30,049 That has nothing to do specifically with logistics, it 563 00:27:30,110 --> 00:27:35,623 has nothing to do specifically with finance. 564 00:27:35,623 --> 00:27:42,343 It is just a very intense lived experience of somebody who and 565 00:27:42,383 --> 00:27:44,968 I'm sure if we asked your partners that were there, they 566 00:27:44,988 --> 00:27:46,853 would have a slightly different version of the story and they 567 00:27:46,873 --> 00:27:49,420 would say some of the same things of like yeah, it was 568 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:50,591 really hard for us too. 569 00:27:51,173 --> 00:27:56,022 But I think we glamorize entrepreneurship I know I do, 570 00:27:56,142 --> 00:28:02,317 I'm guilty of it at times and the realities are it's very hard 571 00:28:02,317 --> 00:28:04,019 , it's very emotional, emotional . 572 00:28:04,019 --> 00:28:08,105 It is a different kind of sleepless night when you're 573 00:28:08,170 --> 00:28:14,921 dealing with equity and distributions and maybe a an 574 00:28:15,061 --> 00:28:17,725 ending, a partnership that's ending that. 575 00:28:17,725 --> 00:28:21,860 There's not a lot of people that can understand that kind of 576 00:28:21,860 --> 00:28:22,782 pressure and stress. 577 00:28:22,782 --> 00:28:28,711 I'm sure your wife vividly remembers every week of that and 578 00:28:28,711 --> 00:28:33,480 if she probably flashed back to when you were all starry-eyed 579 00:28:33,500 --> 00:28:35,493 and like, hey, let's go do this thing, and she said it's just a 580 00:28:35,533 --> 00:28:39,517 house, you know, to get to that full circle moment on the other 581 00:28:39,576 --> 00:28:39,999 end of it. 582 00:28:39,999 --> 00:28:41,891 That is. 583 00:28:41,891 --> 00:28:42,916 I mean I'm not going to spend too much time on the 584 00:28:42,936 --> 00:28:44,101 storytelling part of our narrative and how that all works 585 00:28:44,101 --> 00:28:44,101 . 586 00:28:44,101 --> 00:28:44,323 Uh, that is. 587 00:28:44,323 --> 00:28:45,428 I mean, I'm not going to spend too much time on the 588 00:28:45,448 --> 00:28:48,620 storytelling part of of our narrative and how that all works 589 00:28:48,620 --> 00:28:48,620 . 590 00:28:48,620 --> 00:28:52,493 But yeah, these are quote life and death and from a financial 591 00:28:52,533 --> 00:28:59,054 standpoint, uh, stakes they're not um fun, they are terrifying. 592 00:28:59,496 --> 00:29:02,030 Casey Winans: Oh yeah, yeah, it's, and it's the typical thing 593 00:29:02,030 --> 00:29:04,692 when you've had a business for a few years lifestyle creep. 594 00:29:04,692 --> 00:29:06,955 Yeah, I bought a new, bigger home. 595 00:29:06,955 --> 00:29:08,457 I had a daughter in college. 596 00:29:08,457 --> 00:29:12,460 I had, at that point, I think, I had my two younger kids. 597 00:29:12,460 --> 00:29:15,482 They had been homeschooled for a while for other reasons 598 00:29:16,264 --> 00:29:19,447 medical for one of them, but I think they were in private 599 00:29:19,467 --> 00:29:27,573 school at that point, right, so I was doing all these things 600 00:29:27,613 --> 00:29:29,038 that were valuable to my kids, really pouring into them, that 601 00:29:29,077 --> 00:29:30,282 required a sizable income, and then suddenly the rugs pulled 602 00:29:30,302 --> 00:29:31,586 out and what do you do and what's going on? 603 00:29:31,586 --> 00:29:33,593 And I had a lot of guilt actually too. 604 00:29:33,593 --> 00:29:35,477 I mean, here's the other human person. 605 00:29:35,577 --> 00:29:39,033 Part of it is for those five years and then years before it I 606 00:29:39,033 --> 00:29:39,875 traveled like crazy. 607 00:29:39,875 --> 00:29:43,571 So it was constantly like I'm seeing my kids grow up through, 608 00:29:43,770 --> 00:29:46,941 you know, facetime, talking to my wife, you know, and odds and 609 00:29:46,980 --> 00:29:47,081 ends. 610 00:29:47,081 --> 00:29:50,599 And there was one project I did where I felt like I lived in 611 00:29:50,659 --> 00:29:54,075 Memphis for two and a half years , I mean every week, four days, 612 00:29:54,336 --> 00:29:56,020 four days a week there, constantly. 613 00:29:56,020 --> 00:29:57,852 So there was that coming out of it. 614 00:29:57,852 --> 00:29:59,975 So it was relief on one end, you know. 615 00:29:59,975 --> 00:30:03,119 But you know friendships are kind of getting pulled and 616 00:30:03,159 --> 00:30:06,403 pulled apart, ending, you know, uncertainty about what's coming 617 00:30:06,462 --> 00:30:06,984 next to me. 618 00:30:06,984 --> 00:30:07,884 So there's, there's all those. 619 00:30:07,884 --> 00:30:11,836 It's all that human drama that was in there at the end of it 620 00:30:11,856 --> 00:30:15,064 2019, you know, like the very beginning of the year. 621 00:30:15,410 --> 00:30:18,237 So I think it was, I think it was December 31st. 622 00:30:18,237 --> 00:30:22,530 We signed the papers and I was no longer an owner, got a chunk 623 00:30:22,572 --> 00:30:25,780 of money, got the promissory note for X number of payments 624 00:30:26,670 --> 00:30:30,359 and you know, I that was kind of cut out from everything I'd 625 00:30:30,399 --> 00:30:31,382 done for for years. 626 00:30:31,382 --> 00:30:32,431 So what do you do next? 627 00:30:32,431 --> 00:30:33,953 And you have to reinvent yourself. 628 00:30:33,953 --> 00:30:39,251 Or, uh, and and honestly, I did sensationalize entrepreneurship 629 00:30:39,251 --> 00:30:39,251 . 630 00:30:39,251 --> 00:30:42,699 There was a lot of relearning, unlearning at that point, cause 631 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,755 I thought my stuff didn't stink. 632 00:30:45,755 --> 00:30:49,658 I realized that there was a whole bunch of things around 633 00:30:49,698 --> 00:30:53,919 business that I didn't know, that it was just the perfect 634 00:30:53,959 --> 00:30:58,513 storm of being in a space where there was a lot of demand and I 635 00:30:58,533 --> 00:31:00,799 just happened to be able to build and capitalize on a 636 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,614 network when I didn't have it anymore. 637 00:31:02,614 --> 00:31:05,321 You're starting from scratch so much harder. 638 00:31:07,250 --> 00:31:09,094 Nate Shutes: There's also a loss of status. 639 00:31:09,094 --> 00:31:09,996 That happens. 640 00:31:09,996 --> 00:31:13,103 You're used to being in a room and having influence or 641 00:31:13,671 --> 00:31:16,317 authority and the network. 642 00:31:16,317 --> 00:31:20,869 You get customers, you've got suppliers, you've got clout of a 643 00:31:20,869 --> 00:31:25,201 kind, and then one day you realize it was all situational 644 00:31:25,844 --> 00:31:27,269 yeah, I mean true, there's. 645 00:31:27,288 --> 00:31:29,256 Casey Winans: There's folks I haven't talked to since I left 646 00:31:29,355 --> 00:31:32,870 mcgregor, just because you know we there was that six month 647 00:31:32,950 --> 00:31:37,039 period where separation and even before then, like moving into 648 00:31:37,059 --> 00:31:38,690 different roles, where I didn't talk to as much. 649 00:31:38,690 --> 00:31:43,076 So if they listen to this, this is probably their first, uh 650 00:31:43,857 --> 00:31:46,883 guess, perspective of, or at least my perspective of, what 651 00:31:46,942 --> 00:31:48,365 happened and why it happened. 652 00:31:48,365 --> 00:31:50,934 And so I'm I'm pretty private that way. 653 00:31:50,934 --> 00:31:54,033 I overshare sometimes in other spaces, but I've been quiet in 654 00:31:54,053 --> 00:31:56,019 this in terms of detail, but I think. 655 00:31:56,038 --> 00:31:59,076 Nate Shutes: Thank you for for trusting me and our audience 656 00:31:59,176 --> 00:32:01,902 with a very vulnerable insights. 657 00:32:01,942 --> 00:32:07,283 I mean, this is part of why I do what I do is I? 658 00:32:07,283 --> 00:32:13,195 Lots of folks out there are owners themselves, or are about 659 00:32:13,235 --> 00:32:16,869 to be, or have been dreaming about it for years, and I want 660 00:32:16,990 --> 00:32:20,490 to help prepare them, in some cases just tactically. 661 00:32:20,490 --> 00:32:22,756 Hey, you're going to need to get really good at accounting. 662 00:32:22,756 --> 00:32:25,789 You're going to have to understand what a GL code is and 663 00:32:25,789 --> 00:32:30,717 how a balance sheet and the income statement work together 664 00:32:30,817 --> 00:32:33,026 or don't at times and statements of cash Well, you're going to 665 00:32:33,046 --> 00:32:33,988 learn all that kind of stuff. 666 00:32:33,988 --> 00:32:38,038 Plus, you got to be a part-time lawyer, part-time HR generalist 667 00:32:38,038 --> 00:32:42,211 and you're going to miss a lot of your kids' sporting events 668 00:32:42,692 --> 00:32:47,008 and and and and so to help prepare them for those kind of 669 00:32:47,068 --> 00:32:51,018 rough seas that might come, stories like yours, I believe, 670 00:32:51,466 --> 00:32:53,354 add significant value. 671 00:32:54,118 --> 00:32:56,888 Now you can tell somebody else hey, don't make the same 672 00:32:56,908 --> 00:32:57,529 mistakes I did. 673 00:32:57,529 --> 00:32:59,826 And oftentimes people are like no, I think I want to burn my 674 00:32:59,866 --> 00:33:03,519 hand on the stove myself before I listen to what you say. 675 00:33:03,519 --> 00:33:08,029 But now you've gone through it yourself and then you had to sit 676 00:33:08,029 --> 00:33:12,738 out for a couple of years and now you're doing full stride. 677 00:33:12,738 --> 00:33:14,141 So let's shift then. 678 00:33:14,141 --> 00:33:20,173 Second time founder, new organization well, for new name? 679 00:33:20,173 --> 00:33:21,616 Where did full stride come from ? 680 00:33:21,616 --> 00:33:28,158 What does it do and what are you doing differently now in 681 00:33:28,178 --> 00:33:29,740 your next venture, gotcha? 682 00:33:30,001 --> 00:33:34,219 Casey Winans: so in between starting full stride and exiting 683 00:33:34,219 --> 00:33:38,009 McGregor Partners, I had a two-year COVID the ugly part. 684 00:33:38,009 --> 00:33:39,814 I actually took a job. 685 00:33:39,814 --> 00:33:42,986 I was recruited by somebody a peer that used to be a 686 00:33:43,046 --> 00:33:45,113 competitor and I worked there for about a year and a half 687 00:33:45,273 --> 00:33:46,176 heading up advisory. 688 00:33:46,176 --> 00:33:49,854 So I got to learn a lot of the stuff that happens before they 689 00:33:49,874 --> 00:33:52,910 select a vendor and get an implementation, which meant are 690 00:33:52,950 --> 00:33:54,053 we building business cases? 691 00:33:54,053 --> 00:33:54,975 Does it make sense? 692 00:33:54,975 --> 00:33:58,772 Here's different vendors, where are they better, worse for you, 693 00:33:58,772 --> 00:34:00,596 based on what you're trying to achieve. 694 00:34:00,596 --> 00:34:04,511 And then just structuring all that and I did a lot of that 695 00:34:04,593 --> 00:34:05,945 with fixed fee arrangements. 696 00:34:05,945 --> 00:34:09,885 So no longer per hour, you know where this, this, this messy 697 00:34:09,925 --> 00:34:12,228 part of we want more, they want less. 698 00:34:12,228 --> 00:34:14,833 You know, and then we're fighting over inputs and outputs 699 00:34:14,833 --> 00:34:16,615 versus like, what are we achieving? 700 00:34:16,615 --> 00:34:18,498 So I did that for a year and a half. 701 00:34:18,498 --> 00:34:19,159 He retired. 702 00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:24,260 I didn't really mesh well with the rest of the executive team, 703 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:24,664 so part of the ways. 704 00:34:24,664 --> 00:34:29,615 But taking all the things that I learned there, I wanted to put 705 00:34:29,615 --> 00:34:30,518 into full stride. 706 00:34:30,518 --> 00:34:33,512 And full stride really is like you start slower and you ramp up 707 00:34:33,512 --> 00:34:35,257 and then you're running right. 708 00:34:35,257 --> 00:34:36,771 So that image in your head. 709 00:34:37,648 --> 00:34:40,907 I wanted to work with the mid-sized businesses that 710 00:34:41,528 --> 00:34:44,847 weren't well served by Blue Yonder, the ones that I had seen 711 00:34:44,847 --> 00:34:48,807 buy them, always choked and they struggled long-term if they 712 00:34:48,807 --> 00:34:50,713 didn't just abandon ship at some point. 713 00:34:50,713 --> 00:34:53,891 So I'm like there needs to be somebody there advocating for 714 00:34:53,911 --> 00:34:54,111 them. 715 00:34:54,111 --> 00:34:56,937 And one of the things that didn't go well with my first 716 00:34:56,977 --> 00:34:59,990 business and the one I was working with afterwards is when 717 00:35:00,010 --> 00:35:04,128 your time and materials and your project-based the ones that get 718 00:35:04,128 --> 00:35:07,596 you going early on to feed you eventually are the ones that you 719 00:35:07,596 --> 00:35:10,028 get the scraps or don't even get any attention because you're 720 00:35:10,028 --> 00:35:11,570 chasing ever bigger paydays. 721 00:35:11,570 --> 00:35:14,976 So with McGregor we were going high, six-figure, low, 722 00:35:15,017 --> 00:35:19,353 seven-figure implementations versus the five and six-figure 723 00:35:19,393 --> 00:35:20,095 we did at the beginning. 724 00:35:20,095 --> 00:35:22,072 Same thing with the other company I worked with. 725 00:35:22,072 --> 00:35:26,014 So these other ones, these clients, were getting the scraps 726 00:35:26,014 --> 00:35:27,027 , the ones coming. 727 00:35:27,027 --> 00:35:31,490 They were coming and looking for, say, blue Yonder and you 728 00:35:31,530 --> 00:35:35,027 can potentially pay the subscription fee, maybe pay for 729 00:35:35,086 --> 00:35:37,954 a small implementation, but you're always going to struggle 730 00:35:37,994 --> 00:35:38,275 with this. 731 00:35:38,275 --> 00:35:40,371 They're going to eat you alive because there's all these 732 00:35:40,432 --> 00:35:43,005 assumptions behind the scenes in terms of how it's structured 733 00:35:43,646 --> 00:35:45,594 for large business, not midsize. 734 00:35:45,594 --> 00:35:48,302 So we started looking at that company. 735 00:35:48,322 --> 00:35:50,708 In between, I started looking at other vendors that were maybe a 736 00:35:50,708 --> 00:35:52,771 tier lower, didn't have the partner. 737 00:35:52,771 --> 00:35:56,517 Ecosystems really wanted to grow, wanted some outside 738 00:35:56,717 --> 00:35:58,099 influence partnerships to go. 739 00:35:58,099 --> 00:36:01,331 So I took those agreements and I literally one of them. 740 00:36:01,331 --> 00:36:02,134 I wrote an email. 741 00:36:02,134 --> 00:36:03,706 My wife was like how did that work? 742 00:36:03,706 --> 00:36:06,793 It was maybe six, seven lines. 743 00:36:06,793 --> 00:36:10,586 After I talked to the CEO of one of those vendors and I said, 744 00:36:10,586 --> 00:36:12,492 hey, I made the case, you want partnerships. 745 00:36:12,492 --> 00:36:14,396 You felt like you missed the boat on that one. 746 00:36:14,396 --> 00:36:18,229 What if I build a business that didn't outgrow you and we can 747 00:36:18,249 --> 00:36:18,450 talk? 748 00:36:18,450 --> 00:36:20,590 And he's like, let's do it so instantly. 749 00:36:20,590 --> 00:36:21,012 There you go. 750 00:36:21,012 --> 00:36:22,135 I had my first partnership. 751 00:36:22,135 --> 00:36:25,094 Then I went out and I started the LLC and all that. 752 00:36:25,094 --> 00:36:27,367 But she was kind of dumbfounded Like, how did that work? 753 00:36:27,367 --> 00:36:29,289 I spoke his language. 754 00:36:29,970 --> 00:36:31,952 Nate Shutes: You know if I can deliver great. 755 00:36:31,952 --> 00:36:33,434 So you closed the deal in one email. 756 00:36:33,434 --> 00:36:34,054 Is what you're saying. 757 00:36:34,235 --> 00:36:35,916 Casey Winans: Yeah, more or less that's really what it looked 758 00:36:35,956 --> 00:36:36,137 like. 759 00:36:36,137 --> 00:36:38,199 You know, there was a conversation before that and 760 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,867 some back channel things with some some some folks that I knew 761 00:36:42,867 --> 00:36:44,833 in the industry, but that was how my first partnership started 762 00:36:44,833 --> 00:36:47,931 with a vendor and I went in and I started working. 763 00:36:47,931 --> 00:36:50,766 As you know, I went back to being the guy who was turning 764 00:36:50,786 --> 00:36:52,967 the wrenches and configuration and talking to clients. 765 00:36:52,967 --> 00:36:56,708 So that was that was that was me, my, my deal. 766 00:36:56,708 --> 00:36:58,530 I was going to be an implementation partner for 767 00:36:58,829 --> 00:37:02,231 midsize businesses, midsize vendors, right Connecting the 768 00:37:02,271 --> 00:37:03,412 dots there doing? 769 00:37:03,432 --> 00:37:04,313 Nate Shutes: what does midsize mean? 770 00:37:04,313 --> 00:37:05,592 By the way, can you define that ? 771 00:37:05,592 --> 00:37:08,255 Yeah, so going back. 772 00:37:08,275 --> 00:37:09,934 Casey Winans: I mean anyone that's probably doing. 773 00:37:09,934 --> 00:37:14,097 I guess it's more, so much that I'm trying to get back to that 774 00:37:14,237 --> 00:37:16,097 original thesis because it was a little fuzzy. 775 00:37:16,097 --> 00:37:21,201 But anybody who's looking for WMS at that point, so maybe 776 00:37:21,260 --> 00:37:25,322 outgrowing an ERP or even in the sense of a 3PL, that's the 777 00:37:25,342 --> 00:37:25,862 first system. 778 00:37:25,862 --> 00:37:34,505 You need A big thing to run your operation but they're not 779 00:37:34,525 --> 00:37:36,108 big enough for the big names in the new half, the vendors out 780 00:37:36,128 --> 00:37:36,691 there that want to grow in. 781 00:37:36,691 --> 00:37:38,575 A mid-sized business is great for them. 782 00:37:38,575 --> 00:37:40,259 It's a quicker implementation. 783 00:37:40,259 --> 00:37:41,246 It's the first one. 784 00:37:41,246 --> 00:37:42,710 Land and expand as they grow. 785 00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:45,255 If you do well, it's virtuous. 786 00:37:45,255 --> 00:37:47,811 And then I'm in the middle of figuring okay, well, how do I do 787 00:37:47,811 --> 00:37:50,644 this profitably where I build a team and I don't outgrow 788 00:37:50,704 --> 00:37:51,025 anybody? 789 00:37:51,025 --> 00:37:54,496 They outgrow me and I celebrate it Like that's not something 790 00:37:54,517 --> 00:37:56,041 you see in a typical consulting firm. 791 00:37:56,041 --> 00:37:56,403 That's just. 792 00:37:56,403 --> 00:37:59,030 That's just the business model that doesn't exist. 793 00:37:59,590 --> 00:38:02,317 You know, like my first one, we just kept growing and then 794 00:38:03,007 --> 00:38:05,251 people fell off the bus as we got bigger and bigger, 795 00:38:05,894 --> 00:38:07,077 unfortunately inadvertently. 796 00:38:07,077 --> 00:38:09,766 So I started doing that. 797 00:38:09,766 --> 00:38:14,670 I did that for several months and then I hired my first 798 00:38:14,730 --> 00:38:18,271 employee, paul Hinman, and we were working together and we 799 00:38:18,291 --> 00:38:20,813 were a great middle where you could see, it was sold to 800 00:38:20,833 --> 00:38:34,686 somebody who wasn't ready. 801 00:38:34,686 --> 00:38:39,336 They were typically first-time buyers and we were the ones that 802 00:38:39,336 --> 00:38:41,030 were level setting after the fact. 803 00:38:41,030 --> 00:38:43,378 The vendors kind of liked it, but they didn't like it. 804 00:38:43,378 --> 00:38:47,972 The clients appreciated it, but didn't like it because we were 805 00:38:47,992 --> 00:38:48,876 delivering bad news. 806 00:38:48,876 --> 00:38:52,385 And then we were always the ones getting the black eye and, 807 00:38:52,405 --> 00:38:53,547 regardless of us being there or not, we could see the ones 808 00:38:53,567 --> 00:38:54,708 getting the black eye and, regardless of us being there or 809 00:38:54,728 --> 00:38:56,771 not, we could see the other projects going on with some of 810 00:38:56,791 --> 00:38:59,134 these vendors and they never, really ever, transitioned to 811 00:38:59,775 --> 00:39:01,217 fully supported live. 812 00:39:01,217 --> 00:39:08,445 They were tethered and there was no real leadership on that 813 00:39:08,465 --> 00:39:08,746 side of things. 814 00:39:08,766 --> 00:39:10,729 So it was coming in and you're asking the customer what they 815 00:39:10,789 --> 00:39:15,635 want versus leading them with some type of process, and so at 816 00:39:15,655 --> 00:39:19,980 the at the very end of 2023, I pulled back. 817 00:39:19,980 --> 00:39:22,447 I'm like this is this is enough , it's, it's, it's a lot of 818 00:39:22,487 --> 00:39:23,250 money, it's great money. 819 00:39:23,250 --> 00:39:26,731 I can probably keep hiring this way, but I hate my life again, 820 00:39:27,215 --> 00:39:29,224 like I don't want to build another body shop and that's the 821 00:39:29,224 --> 00:39:32,373 effectively what you know where I'd worked outside of vendors. 822 00:39:32,373 --> 00:39:33,885 I'm like I don't want to do that. 823 00:39:33,885 --> 00:39:34,970 I want this to be meaningful. 824 00:39:34,970 --> 00:39:39,204 I love helping people and I want to help American businesses 825 00:39:39,204 --> 00:39:40,909 effectively. 826 00:39:40,909 --> 00:39:43,695 The mid-sized mama pops getting bigger, maybe getting into 827 00:39:43,735 --> 00:39:47,375 private equity, but I want to have a meaningful impact there. 828 00:39:47,375 --> 00:39:50,726 I don't want to get them after they've gone corporate because 829 00:39:50,907 --> 00:39:53,313 then I'm just talking to a middle manager who doesn't have 830 00:39:53,354 --> 00:39:54,056 real say. 831 00:39:54,056 --> 00:39:55,811 I'm like I want to talk to the leaders. 832 00:39:56,684 --> 00:40:00,672 So we stepped back and the big question I had in my mind was 833 00:40:01,293 --> 00:40:03,016 what does across my career? 834 00:40:03,016 --> 00:40:05,460 I've been doing this for 20 years what's the commonality? 835 00:40:05,460 --> 00:40:09,974 And my thought process then was no one's ever really ready when 836 00:40:09,974 --> 00:40:10,356 they buy. 837 00:40:10,356 --> 00:40:12,541 Was no one's ever really ready when they buy. 838 00:40:12,541 --> 00:40:13,854 No one really talks about all the stuff at the business level 839 00:40:13,874 --> 00:40:14,518 that should be done. 840 00:40:14,518 --> 00:40:18,367 That would help influence who you're working with but also 841 00:40:19,210 --> 00:40:20,815 impact all the things that come along. 842 00:40:20,815 --> 00:40:23,985 You know, when you get into configuration and design there's 843 00:40:23,985 --> 00:40:27,284 I can't tell you the number of times I've gone into a meeting 844 00:40:27,746 --> 00:40:30,150 and I've asked a simple question at least I assumed it was 845 00:40:30,170 --> 00:40:37,778 simple and you get multiple answers and people look at each 846 00:40:37,722 --> 00:40:39,063 other kind of shocked like oh, you're not thinking the same way 847 00:40:39,063 --> 00:40:40,344 I am and instantly like guess what that derails the project? 848 00:40:40,344 --> 00:40:41,402 We're going to spend more time in design than anyone 849 00:40:41,402 --> 00:40:45,072 anticipated, and unless you get more budget, something's going 850 00:40:45,092 --> 00:40:47,588 to have to give, which is training, testing, go live, 851 00:40:47,608 --> 00:40:51,036 support, all the things down the road that are like forever away 852 00:40:51,036 --> 00:40:53,786 , and I'm like that's, that's the part we need to fix. 853 00:40:54,586 --> 00:40:56,391 So we started brainstorming. 854 00:40:56,391 --> 00:40:58,356 I'm like what have I done that's been successful? 855 00:40:58,356 --> 00:41:01,711 And that's when we started carving up and coming up with 856 00:41:01,731 --> 00:41:02,512 something called Clarity. 857 00:41:02,512 --> 00:41:05,066 First, and it's a framework. 858 00:41:05,066 --> 00:41:07,653 I have three big questions, with questions inside of that, 859 00:41:08,414 --> 00:41:11,389 all geared towards letting people know should you invest 860 00:41:11,429 --> 00:41:13,094 now and most of the time? 861 00:41:13,094 --> 00:41:15,487 If it's not, yes, it's not yet, because if you're growing, 862 00:41:15,708 --> 00:41:16,733 eventually you're going to need one. 863 00:41:16,733 --> 00:41:20,454 And then there's things behind it that are objective. 864 00:41:20,454 --> 00:41:24,632 Another one is where aren't you ready, which is a hard pill for 865 00:41:24,632 --> 00:41:25,374 people to swallow. 866 00:41:25,374 --> 00:41:31,034 So we get into that Unpacking that around teams, process data, 867 00:41:31,034 --> 00:41:34,887 all the things that an ERP doesn't necessarily need or will 868 00:41:34,887 --> 00:41:35,530 probably should. 869 00:41:35,530 --> 00:41:40,204 But you can get away with it because there's another aspect 870 00:41:40,284 --> 00:41:41,490 to the whole operation that way. 871 00:41:41,490 --> 00:41:44,891 But so we started doing that and that's where we went full 872 00:41:44,931 --> 00:41:48,153 into it, and I've walked away from a lot of revenue to get 873 00:41:48,173 --> 00:41:48,315 there. 874 00:41:49,586 --> 00:41:53,883 It was pretty painful and then eventually, since we weren't 875 00:41:53,903 --> 00:41:57,192 getting traction until just after uh, I had to. 876 00:41:57,192 --> 00:41:58,054 I had to let that guy go. 877 00:41:58,054 --> 00:42:00,748 You know which was like losing your right arm. 878 00:42:00,748 --> 00:42:01,791 It really sucked. 879 00:42:01,791 --> 00:42:03,755 And it was at that perfect time though, too. 880 00:42:03,755 --> 00:42:06,431 He was getting married, he was buying a house. 881 00:42:06,431 --> 00:42:07,833 They want to start a family. 882 00:42:07,833 --> 00:42:09,865 He needed stability that I couldn't give him. 883 00:42:09,865 --> 00:42:13,717 Where, where I'm I'm second time I can do this. 884 00:42:13,717 --> 00:42:15,893 My wife works, so there's some cushion there too. 885 00:42:15,893 --> 00:42:21,471 Two of my kids are out of the house at this point, so it's 886 00:42:21,490 --> 00:42:22,273 just different all around. 887 00:42:22,273 --> 00:42:23,630 They weren't then, but they are now. 888 00:42:25,485 --> 00:42:28,192 So I bit the bullet and said, well, I'm going to go double 889 00:42:28,233 --> 00:42:32,094 down on the mission-based piece of this, and so I had to start 890 00:42:32,135 --> 00:42:32,637 from scratch. 891 00:42:32,637 --> 00:42:35,028 I had to get my message out there, figure out how to talk to 892 00:42:35,028 --> 00:42:38,456 people, figure out how do I get in front of an audience. 893 00:42:38,456 --> 00:42:41,331 Podcasts became part of that plan Right on. 894 00:42:41,331 --> 00:42:43,925 Little by little, towards the middle of the year, I started 895 00:42:43,947 --> 00:42:48,221 getting more leads coming in, and so I didn't have to do any 896 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:49,806 weird consulting gigs anymore. 897 00:42:49,806 --> 00:42:53,335 That kind of kept the lights on , but, you know, divided your 898 00:42:53,375 --> 00:42:56,923 attention Didn't really, didn't really help my mission, and I've 899 00:42:56,923 --> 00:42:57,985 been doing it ever since. 900 00:42:58,206 --> 00:43:00,432 It's not it's not something where I'm getting enough 901 00:43:00,492 --> 00:43:02,157 traction yet to hire a team. 902 00:43:02,157 --> 00:43:05,192 It's like feast and famine I'll get a couple, then there's a, 903 00:43:05,311 --> 00:43:14,947 there's a, there's a you know dry spot, and then I get more. 904 00:43:14,947 --> 00:43:15,909 So it's it's like start and stop jerky. 905 00:43:15,909 --> 00:43:17,052 So I'm in survival mode still at this point, you know. 906 00:43:17,052 --> 00:43:18,255 And then I've been looking for what's in my. 907 00:43:18,255 --> 00:43:22,166 Am I pulling too much versus, or am I pushing too much versus 908 00:43:22,226 --> 00:43:23,849 pulling where clients are coming to me? 909 00:43:23,849 --> 00:43:24,851 And this is a problem. 910 00:43:24,851 --> 00:43:26,394 So I have the. 911 00:43:26,394 --> 00:43:30,454 I guess I'm blessed enough to know that I have, if I can be, 912 00:43:30,695 --> 00:43:34,567 I'm finding the fit and I'm going to have something that I 913 00:43:34,606 --> 00:43:37,575 enjoy doing long-term, that I can build a team around and I 914 00:43:37,615 --> 00:43:41,070 can choose to either sell it or keep going and maybe run it 915 00:43:41,110 --> 00:43:44,017 forever and sponsor other businesses, cause that's how my 916 00:43:44,057 --> 00:43:44,498 brain works. 917 00:43:44,784 --> 00:43:46,672 Nate Shutes: I always see other opportunities, but you got to 918 00:43:46,711 --> 00:43:51,007 pick one and go with it, and well, Casey, I love your honesty 919 00:43:51,007 --> 00:43:54,871 , just the way you talk about the realities of, because 920 00:43:54,891 --> 00:43:59,735 there's a temptation to over-represent size, like for a 921 00:43:59,775 --> 00:44:00,335 lot of startups. 922 00:44:00,335 --> 00:44:03,258 They, oh, we're a global company because one of their 923 00:44:03,318 --> 00:44:06,441 founders, you know, was born in Canada. 924 00:44:06,441 --> 00:44:08,762 You know, no, you're not global . 925 00:44:08,762 --> 00:44:12,713 Somebody's address is another thing, yeah, and sort of like 926 00:44:12,753 --> 00:44:16,226 puff up and try to appear as something that you're not, and 927 00:44:16,487 --> 00:44:21,931 it sounds like your approach is the opposite and it might take 928 00:44:22,012 --> 00:44:25,278 longer as a result, to get, maybe, where you want to get. 929 00:44:25,278 --> 00:44:30,215 But it sounds like you have a much deeper sense of clarity 930 00:44:30,255 --> 00:44:33,842 about how you want to run a business, this time around very 931 00:44:33,862 --> 00:44:38,391 much, and you're zooming out and looking at the whole family 932 00:44:38,451 --> 00:44:43,927 experience and the financial side of it and the the impact on 933 00:44:43,927 --> 00:44:44,708 your employees. 934 00:44:44,708 --> 00:44:48,356 You mentioned the one that had to leave um to start a family 935 00:44:49,057 --> 00:44:52,626 and those are the kinds of learnings that you can't read 936 00:44:52,686 --> 00:44:52,987 about. 937 00:44:52,987 --> 00:44:54,389 I wish we could. 938 00:44:54,389 --> 00:44:59,072 I wish somebody else could just download all of the learnings 939 00:44:59,112 --> 00:45:02,434 and then apply them immediately and increase their odds of 940 00:45:02,494 --> 00:45:02,914 success. 941 00:45:02,914 --> 00:45:08,818 Two or three X, but that's just not human nature when folks are 942 00:45:08,818 --> 00:45:12,882 willing to talk about these things in such a candid and 943 00:45:12,922 --> 00:45:13,403 frank way. 944 00:45:13,403 --> 00:45:19,787 And I don't know what happens next for you, of course, but I 945 00:45:19,887 --> 00:45:25,231 love that you are putting yourself out there, because I'm 946 00:45:25,851 --> 00:45:29,467 convinced that when you show up that way, there are some people 947 00:45:29,628 --> 00:45:32,735 out there that are absolutely attracted to that way of doing 948 00:45:32,797 --> 00:45:35,653 things, and we just try to connect them. 949 00:45:36,105 --> 00:45:39,554 So when we grow awareness for smaller businesses, you don't 950 00:45:39,575 --> 00:45:40,237 have it all figured out. 951 00:45:40,237 --> 00:45:43,971 You're not a $50 million a year thing, you're very early in the 952 00:45:43,971 --> 00:45:48,155 process and we want to offer that support to you. 953 00:45:48,155 --> 00:45:51,887 I also just love talking warehousing and WMS and all that 954 00:45:51,887 --> 00:45:52,809 stuff myself too. 955 00:45:52,809 --> 00:45:56,711 So selfishly we could record for a couple more hours because 956 00:45:56,771 --> 00:45:58,873 I want to know what those three questions are that you ask. 957 00:45:58,932 --> 00:46:01,315 I've implemented a WMS myself. 958 00:46:01,315 --> 00:46:06,378 I've opened new facilities under an existing ERP that had a 959 00:46:06,378 --> 00:46:09,802 WMS module inside of it and I couldn't change anything because 960 00:46:09,802 --> 00:46:13,605 it was a copy paste of all the other distribution centers and 961 00:46:13,644 --> 00:46:16,849 it didn't quite work for the way I wanted to do it, and so I 962 00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:24,326 feel the pain of having been the user of the WMS, and so maybe 963 00:46:24,367 --> 00:46:28,295 you and I we need to have our own McGregor brew house 964 00:46:28,896 --> 00:46:32,106 conversation sometime, and I want to pick your brain on all 965 00:46:32,126 --> 00:46:35,972 the ways to do it more expertly in the future. 966 00:46:35,972 --> 00:46:42,226 When you think now, wrapping up , who is the type of business or 967 00:46:42,226 --> 00:46:46,416 somebody that you would be a great fit for, that should reach 968 00:46:46,416 --> 00:46:46,818 out to you. 969 00:46:47,985 --> 00:46:49,768 Casey Winans: It's funny you say that because we were talking 970 00:46:49,788 --> 00:46:52,512 about the geeking out on the business side. 971 00:46:52,512 --> 00:46:57,979 So one thing I've discovered recently is I had a referral 972 00:46:58,019 --> 00:46:59,320 from another podcast I was on. 973 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:00,570 This was a small 3PO. 974 00:47:00,570 --> 00:47:05,005 They were morphing from FBA prep into a full-blown 3PO and 975 00:47:05,327 --> 00:47:06,653 they realized they need some help. 976 00:47:06,653 --> 00:47:09,374 They had tried WMS themselves a year before. 977 00:47:09,374 --> 00:47:12,354 It didn't go well for all the reasons of why I do what I do. 978 00:47:12,354 --> 00:47:17,097 So pulled me in and while I was working with them, they were 979 00:47:17,338 --> 00:47:21,230 captivated by the quick wins that I offer, which I just do as 980 00:47:21,230 --> 00:47:23,596 a you know like hey, this kind of helps offset my fees. 981 00:47:23,596 --> 00:47:27,559 Well, they, they drank it up and they were so approachable 982 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:29,086 and you know they're a small business. 983 00:47:29,086 --> 00:47:31,711 So there's, you know there's not a big budget for consulting. 984 00:47:31,711 --> 00:47:34,637 I'm probably the first one they've worked with, or maybe in 985 00:47:34,637 --> 00:47:36,249 a long time, because they had a bad taste in their mouth. 986 00:47:36,249 --> 00:47:37,413 That's what I'm up against. 987 00:47:37,413 --> 00:47:42,213 But so I'm really thinking about doubling down in that 988 00:47:42,273 --> 00:47:46,171 space of upstart 3PLs, because they need, they need the WMS 989 00:47:46,191 --> 00:47:47,434 right off, right out of the gate . 990 00:47:47,786 --> 00:47:49,673 I've been working with distributors too, but there's 991 00:47:49,693 --> 00:47:55,688 that, that, that milestone of we've finally outgrown the erp 992 00:47:55,708 --> 00:47:58,137 with the module, wms module and everyone is in alignment with 993 00:47:58,177 --> 00:48:00,546 that, or they're at least asking the question where I can come 994 00:48:00,567 --> 00:48:02,311 in and help paint the picture of yes or no. 995 00:48:02,311 --> 00:48:04,056 You should do this, 3pls. 996 00:48:04,056 --> 00:48:08,072 It's much earlier, uh, the organization's more flat so we 997 00:48:08,092 --> 00:48:09,275 can have the conversations. 998 00:48:09,275 --> 00:48:10,925 They enjoy this, this content. 999 00:48:10,925 --> 00:48:11,668 That's where they found me. 1000 00:48:11,668 --> 00:48:15,396 I can be real, super real and polished, or corporate, yep, you 1001 00:48:15,396 --> 00:48:18,525 know all the things that I, I value, I might, this, I get to 1002 00:48:18,545 --> 00:48:19,429 be more, uh it's. 1003 00:48:19,550 --> 00:48:22,402 It's a combination of the warehouse management guy but 1004 00:48:22,461 --> 00:48:25,171 also the business consultant guy , because I come in and ask like 1005 00:48:25,171 --> 00:48:27,905 are you capturing all the revenue you should be capturing? 1006 00:48:27,905 --> 00:48:31,173 Because I know in a 3po world, you know labor is massively 1007 00:48:31,213 --> 00:48:34,331 expensive, the margins are low and what I'm seeing you do here, 1008 00:48:34,331 --> 00:48:35,313 do you capture that? 1009 00:48:35,313 --> 00:48:38,614 Because if you're not doing it consistently, you're giving 1010 00:48:38,653 --> 00:48:42,072 people free rides and that's killing you on the back end here 1011 00:48:42,072 --> 00:48:42,934 , whether you see it or not. 1012 00:48:42,934 --> 00:48:46,391 So I love that part and that's really kind of opened my eyes. 1013 00:48:46,391 --> 00:48:48,371 How do I get in front of more of those folks? 1014 00:48:54,304 --> 00:48:55,528 And I've met so many other entrepreneurs that have networks 1015 00:48:55,528 --> 00:48:56,894 in that realm, either like matchmakers or other some other 1016 00:48:56,934 --> 00:48:59,101 offshoots of that, that are like oh yeah, we bump into these 1017 00:48:59,164 --> 00:48:59,787 folks all the time. 1018 00:48:59,787 --> 00:49:02,052 We we don't have any way to help them Like, well, yeah, 1019 00:49:02,914 --> 00:49:05,990 perfect client for me, let's, let's, let's help them make them 1020 00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:06,271 bigger. 1021 00:49:06,271 --> 00:49:15,005 They're good for you, I help them, you help me, so everybody 1022 00:49:15,025 --> 00:49:15,126 wins. 1023 00:49:15,126 --> 00:49:16,510 So that's where I think I'm really going on that side of 1024 00:49:16,550 --> 00:49:16,711 things. 1025 00:49:16,711 --> 00:49:18,014 It's it's the smaller upside upstarts, and that might not 1026 00:49:18,034 --> 00:49:18,735 just be 3pls, I don't know. 1027 00:49:18,896 --> 00:49:22,070 I've bumped into some brands on the e-com side that really want 1028 00:49:22,090 --> 00:49:24,097 to get in and do their own fulfillment and they have the 1029 00:49:24,125 --> 00:49:26,796 same challenges of yeah, what do we do early on? 1030 00:49:26,796 --> 00:49:27,478 What do we do? 1031 00:49:27,478 --> 00:49:30,829 We're kind of figuring out and making it work, but is it dumb? 1032 00:49:30,829 --> 00:49:33,476 Like you know, are we doing things the hard way, versus like 1033 00:49:33,476 --> 00:49:36,543 you come in and tell us to make a change and suddenly you know 1034 00:49:36,563 --> 00:49:37,987 we're three times more productive. 1035 00:49:37,987 --> 00:49:40,512 So that's the kind of stuff I like now. 1036 00:49:40,512 --> 00:49:43,047 My big challenge now is how do I make that profitable for me 1037 00:49:43,126 --> 00:49:45,793 long term, where I can build, sure, and not just be limited to 1038 00:49:45,793 --> 00:49:46,414 me? 1039 00:49:47,195 --> 00:49:48,298 Nate Shutes: so well. 1040 00:49:48,298 --> 00:49:53,411 It's a another puzzle to solve and that's what you've made your 1041 00:49:53,411 --> 00:49:59,239 career on is connecting the dots, moving the Rubik's Cube 1042 00:49:59,278 --> 00:50:02,163 around digitally to support the physical world that needs to be 1043 00:50:02,202 --> 00:50:08,414 moved around, and the four-wall ecosystem of a warehouse is so 1044 00:50:08,615 --> 00:50:11,780 underestimated and misunderstood . 1045 00:50:11,780 --> 00:50:20,155 The complexity inside of it is astounding and also just a lot 1046 00:50:20,175 --> 00:50:20,476 of fun. 1047 00:50:20,476 --> 00:50:24,186 It's where the real work gets done. 1048 00:50:24,186 --> 00:50:27,894 Tons of hardworking people that get up in the middle of the 1049 00:50:27,974 --> 00:50:30,077 night, three o'clock in the morning, four o'clock in the 1050 00:50:30,137 --> 00:50:42,128 morning, show up at a distribution center an hour 1051 00:50:42,148 --> 00:50:43,612 later and get to work and lifting heavy things and walking 1052 00:50:43,612 --> 00:50:44,936 long distances and driving heavy and sometimes dangerous 1053 00:50:44,976 --> 00:50:45,999 equipment, and they're interacting alongside 1054 00:50:46,059 --> 00:50:51,412 technologists and finance professionals and customer teams 1055 00:50:51,412 --> 00:50:54,539 , and I always like to tip my hat to them. 1056 00:50:55,266 --> 00:50:57,532 I'm responsible for a distribution center right now, 1057 00:50:57,831 --> 00:51:03,030 you know, with around 30 or 40 people, and I always love to 1058 00:51:03,130 --> 00:51:06,597 honor them because they do the work that doesn't get seen and 1059 00:51:06,697 --> 00:51:12,653 if we, you know leadership and technologists and vendors do our 1060 00:51:12,653 --> 00:51:14,999 jobs really, really well, they also benefit. 1061 00:51:15,644 --> 00:51:19,795 It's a safer work environment, it's more ergonomic, it is less 1062 00:51:19,855 --> 00:51:21,365 taxing, it's more intelligent. 1063 00:51:21,365 --> 00:51:26,016 How it's done and engaging those folks in that kind of work 1064 00:51:26,016 --> 00:51:32,269 is a blast, yeah, and so, yeah, it keeps lighting the fire for 1065 00:51:32,309 --> 00:51:37,235 me talking to you, casey, because I it's easy to get lost 1066 00:51:37,315 --> 00:51:41,320 in the business of business sometimes and need to zoom out 1067 00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:42,421 and say, why are we doing this? 1068 00:51:42,421 --> 00:51:43,101 Oh, that's right. 1069 00:51:43,101 --> 00:51:46,373 Mostly do everything that we do for people, our families, our 1070 00:51:46,413 --> 00:51:51,133 teams, our customers, and so thanks for bringing that full 1071 00:51:51,173 --> 00:51:54,954 circle today and we wish you nothing but the best. 1072 00:51:54,954 --> 00:51:59,175 Again, I always end by saying we're all rooting for you. 1073 00:51:59,175 --> 00:52:03,894 We really are, and I can't wait until you get up to full stride 1074 00:52:03,894 --> 00:52:08,432 yourself, and then we can come back and do an update in a year 1075 00:52:08,693 --> 00:52:10,677 and say, hey, where are they now , casey, what's up? 1076 00:52:10,677 --> 00:52:12,490 And we can hear from you. 1077 00:52:12,490 --> 00:52:13,951 But thanks again for being here today. 1078 00:52:14,271 --> 00:52:14,914 Casey Winans: Yeah, my pleasure. 1079 00:52:14,914 --> 00:52:15,739 Thank you for having me. 1080 00:52:15,739 --> 00:52:17,485 This was therapeutic for me. 1081 00:52:17,485 --> 00:52:21,215 Just, you know it's in your head, so getting it out there in 1082 00:52:21,215 --> 00:52:22,037 intelligible ways. 1083 00:52:23,326 --> 00:52:23,686 Nate Shutes: Well you did. 1084 00:52:23,686 --> 00:52:25,854 You did a great job, and I know there's going to be tons of 1085 00:52:25,874 --> 00:52:28,369 folks that learn a lot from the journey that you've shared so 1086 00:52:28,429 --> 00:52:30,817 far and that will be rooting for you too. 1087 00:52:30,817 --> 00:52:34,025 Thanks, casey. 1088 00:52:34,025 --> 00:52:34,365 Awesome Hope. 1089 00:52:34,365 --> 00:52:36,007 So, all right, take care. 1090 00:52:36,007 --> 00:52:38,688 Thanks for listening to another episode of the Bootstrapper's 1091 00:52:38,729 --> 00:52:41,309 Guide to Logistics, and a special thank you to our 1092 00:52:41,349 --> 00:52:44,311 sponsors and the team behind the scenes who make it all possible 1093 00:52:44,311 --> 00:52:44,311 . 1094 00:52:44,311 --> 00:52:47,815 Be sure to like, follow or subscribe to the podcast to get 1095 00:52:47,835 --> 00:52:48,615 the latest updates. 1096 00:52:48,615 --> 00:52:51,677 To learn more about the show and connect with the growing 1097 00:52:51,717 --> 00:52:55,119 community of entrepreneurs, visit logisticsfounderscom. 1098 00:52:55,119 --> 00:52:58,942 And, of course, thank you to all the founders who trust us to 1099 00:52:58,942 --> 00:52:59,682 share their stories.