1 00:00:01,762 --> 00:00:03,766 Nate Shutes: Hello and welcome to the Bootstrapper's Guide to 2 00:00:03,806 --> 00:00:06,432 Logistics, the podcast highlighting founders doing it 3 00:00:06,451 --> 00:00:08,134 the way that doesn't get a lot of attention. 4 00:00:08,134 --> 00:00:11,067 We're here to change that by sharing their stories and 5 00:00:11,106 --> 00:00:12,570 inspiring others to take the leap. 6 00:00:13,699 --> 00:00:15,666 Casey Winans: It's a roller coaster ride that you might 7 00:00:15,788 --> 00:00:16,510 ultimately fail. 8 00:00:17,100 --> 00:00:19,068 Nate Shutes: That's when I kind of knew I was on to something. 9 00:00:19,782 --> 00:00:20,646 Casey Winans: It was very hard. 10 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,047 Nate Shutes: It truly is building a legacy. 11 00:00:23,047 --> 00:00:27,100 The more life you live, the more wisdom you have, because, 12 00:00:27,161 --> 00:00:30,251 we are where we're supposed to be kind of answering the call. 13 00:00:30,780 --> 00:00:33,189 Don't shoulder entrepreneurship on your own. 14 00:00:33,189 --> 00:00:35,143 I'm your host, nate Schutz. 15 00:00:35,143 --> 00:00:38,171 Let's build something together from the ground up. 16 00:00:38,171 --> 00:00:44,207 Good morning, everybody, or good afternoon, depending on 17 00:00:44,228 --> 00:00:45,250 when you're listening to this. 18 00:00:45,250 --> 00:00:47,244 Welcome back to the Bootstrapper's Guide to 19 00:00:47,284 --> 00:00:47,845 Logistics. 20 00:00:48,427 --> 00:00:51,023 We are doing exactly what we've been doing for years. 21 00:00:51,023 --> 00:00:54,612 There's really no change to the structure or format of Season 3 22 00:00:54,612 --> 00:00:54,612 . 23 00:00:54,612 --> 00:00:58,249 We're just doing the same thing we've always done unpacking the 24 00:00:58,249 --> 00:01:01,003 journeys of founders that are building supply chain and 25 00:01:01,024 --> 00:01:04,010 logistics companies the old-fashioned way, with their 26 00:01:04,150 --> 00:01:06,856 own resources, supply chain and logistics companies the old 27 00:01:06,876 --> 00:01:11,320 fashioned way, with their own resources being scrappy, not 28 00:01:11,340 --> 00:01:11,923 getting a ton of attention. 29 00:01:11,923 --> 00:01:13,608 And I love bringing attention to that myself, because I feel 30 00:01:13,628 --> 00:01:16,394 like it's too easy to get lost in the venture capital world or 31 00:01:16,516 --> 00:01:20,126 the PR, the social media machine that makes it look like 32 00:01:20,286 --> 00:01:25,284 everybody's a unicorn, when the reality is the 99% of businesses 33 00:01:25,284 --> 00:01:29,305 out there are small businesses and they've got small business 34 00:01:29,344 --> 00:01:29,846 challenges. 35 00:01:29,846 --> 00:01:32,052 But it doesn't mean they've got small thinking. 36 00:01:32,052 --> 00:01:34,246 It actually means that they've got really strategic thinking 37 00:01:34,287 --> 00:01:39,707 because they are committed to their own vision, mostly free of 38 00:01:39,707 --> 00:01:44,183 outside influence, and that's maybe one of the most American 39 00:01:44,885 --> 00:01:46,980 dream kind of storylines that's out there. 40 00:01:46,980 --> 00:01:50,487 So I love getting to do this with everybody each week. 41 00:01:50,868 --> 00:01:54,121 Thank you for all of those that have followed us. 42 00:01:54,121 --> 00:01:58,572 We're at the 100 episode mark right around now and if you've 43 00:01:58,611 --> 00:02:00,683 been here from the beginning, I just want to say thank you. 44 00:02:00,683 --> 00:02:04,031 I couldn't do it without you and without our sponsors. 45 00:02:04,031 --> 00:02:05,331 So this week we're going to do the same sponsors. 46 00:02:05,331 --> 00:02:07,825 So this week we're going to do the same thing, but this time 47 00:02:07,844 --> 00:02:10,472 we're going to go deep, with Casey Winans, who's the founder 48 00:02:10,491 --> 00:02:16,050 and CEO of Full Stride, a WMS and tech consulting firm based 49 00:02:16,090 --> 00:02:16,610 in the US. 50 00:02:16,610 --> 00:02:18,093 Casey, good morning. 51 00:02:18,093 --> 00:02:22,687 First, it's great to finally get a chance to go deep on a 52 00:02:22,728 --> 00:02:24,010 subject that I love warehousing. 53 00:02:24,010 --> 00:02:26,722 I know you're an expert, but it's also our first chance 54 00:02:26,762 --> 00:02:29,448 getting to really meet and talk in person. 55 00:02:29,448 --> 00:02:33,062 So, good morning, how are you, and thanks for being here. 56 00:02:33,522 --> 00:02:36,128 Casey Winans: Yeah, great to be here, and yes, I know we've 57 00:02:36,189 --> 00:02:39,145 interacted on LinkedIn for probably a couple years now, so 58 00:02:39,646 --> 00:02:41,131 it's nice to put a face to a name as well. 59 00:02:42,640 --> 00:02:43,723 Nate Shutes: So why don't you start, casey? 60 00:02:43,723 --> 00:02:46,409 Just give us a little bit of overview so our listeners know 61 00:02:47,092 --> 00:02:48,414 who you are, what you've done. 62 00:02:48,414 --> 00:02:52,264 You know kind of career-wise, leading up to what your life has 63 00:02:52,264 --> 00:02:53,388 been like as an entrepreneur. 64 00:02:53,748 --> 00:02:55,561 Casey Winans: Sure, yeah, I mean , I came out of the gate. 65 00:02:55,561 --> 00:03:00,751 I went to school for management information systems at Penn 66 00:03:00,770 --> 00:03:01,051 State. 67 00:03:01,051 --> 00:03:05,389 That morphed into getting an internship at GE up in Erie, 68 00:03:05,430 --> 00:03:07,663 pennsylvania, where they made locomotives. 69 00:03:07,663 --> 00:03:11,132 They may still They've been sold there's a new name on the 70 00:03:12,181 --> 00:03:15,829 outside but effectively that's where I got to really cut my 71 00:03:15,889 --> 00:03:20,046 teeth and I would say, based on that and the next couple of 72 00:03:20,108 --> 00:03:23,562 roles I did, I was more in the software engineering realm of 73 00:03:23,582 --> 00:03:23,864 things. 74 00:03:23,864 --> 00:03:26,310 I built some products after I moved on from GE. 75 00:03:26,310 --> 00:03:30,340 Reverse auctions for procurement that was something 76 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:31,443 that was done in Pennsylvania. 77 00:03:31,443 --> 00:03:36,038 There is like a Commonwealth nonprofit that turned in and 78 00:03:36,058 --> 00:03:38,403 spun out as a startup. 79 00:03:38,585 --> 00:03:43,193 After that I worked for probably about an $80 million company 80 00:03:43,234 --> 00:03:47,704 that was a middleman and bought print cartridges and old cell 81 00:03:47,723 --> 00:03:51,314 phones, refurb them to an extent and then sold them for other 82 00:03:51,836 --> 00:03:56,326 purposes down the line and we built all our systems in-house. 83 00:03:56,326 --> 00:03:59,092 So that was my first taste of warehouse management systems, 84 00:03:59,661 --> 00:04:01,024 parcel manifesting systems. 85 00:04:01,024 --> 00:04:04,831 In fact, my first gig what were my first, I guess, project when 86 00:04:04,831 --> 00:04:10,431 I started was this 200 page printout of the ups spec and 87 00:04:10,472 --> 00:04:14,100 like build a system that we can so we can create our own labels 88 00:04:14,281 --> 00:04:17,869 and do these uh ars labels, authorized, authorized return 89 00:04:17,889 --> 00:04:20,903 service, uh, and I didn't know that was unusual. 90 00:04:20,903 --> 00:04:22,569 So I did that, built those out. 91 00:04:22,569 --> 00:04:23,471 It worked really well. 92 00:04:23,471 --> 00:04:26,682 But after working there for a couple of years they were 93 00:04:26,701 --> 00:04:31,452 realizing that in-house software was kind of rough to maintain 94 00:04:31,620 --> 00:04:34,552 right, you were always making tweaks versus being strategic. 95 00:04:34,552 --> 00:04:38,605 So they started looking at vendors and, totally 96 00:04:38,625 --> 00:04:41,572 coincidental, they were looking at a company called Red Prairie 97 00:04:42,661 --> 00:04:45,420 and I was looking to move to North Carolina with my family 98 00:04:45,502 --> 00:04:48,995 just for other opportunities and I took a job working for Red 99 00:04:49,035 --> 00:04:49,336 Prairie. 100 00:04:49,336 --> 00:04:52,725 I didn't know that at the time, I didn't connect the dots, but 101 00:04:53,166 --> 00:04:56,122 I mean this whole time this is probably the first few years of 102 00:04:56,161 --> 00:04:58,932 my career I had no idea I was in supply chain. 103 00:04:58,932 --> 00:05:02,262 I didn't understand the concept of warehouse management system. 104 00:05:02,262 --> 00:05:03,886 It was just these systems we built. 105 00:05:03,886 --> 00:05:05,488 They were business systems in my mind. 106 00:05:06,411 --> 00:05:10,802 I was a software engineer that's what I do but taking the job at 107 00:05:10,802 --> 00:05:13,451 RepRary turned me into a consultant on the technical side 108 00:05:13,451 --> 00:05:16,310 anyways, the first couple of years and I was working with big 109 00:05:16,310 --> 00:05:19,440 companies rolling out very complex software, lots of 110 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:24,129 customizations, integrations, and that morphed into an 111 00:05:24,189 --> 00:05:27,175 opportunity to lead the Parcel Consulting Group inside of the 112 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:31,189 professional services, because I raised my hand, called out some 113 00:05:31,189 --> 00:05:32,742 things that were happening in the product side. 114 00:05:32,742 --> 00:05:35,790 I had a background in it that I didn't appreciate for it and 115 00:05:35,810 --> 00:05:37,862 that gave me the opportunity to move into management. 116 00:05:37,862 --> 00:05:39,608 So I instantly went in. 117 00:05:39,608 --> 00:05:44,326 I had 15 people reporting to me and I was tasked with fixing 118 00:05:44,387 --> 00:05:46,762 projects across the whole spectrum of different verticals, 119 00:05:46,762 --> 00:05:50,511 because Parcel was seen as getting a tracking number and 120 00:05:50,630 --> 00:05:53,084 all the things that happened behind the scenes in terms of 121 00:05:53,165 --> 00:05:56,173 like the rules out there, interfacing with carriers, 122 00:05:56,519 --> 00:05:57,583 specifications changing. 123 00:05:57,583 --> 00:06:00,490 No one really understood it until they went live and things 124 00:06:00,511 --> 00:06:00,872 didn't work. 125 00:06:00,872 --> 00:06:04,745 So I spent that time teaching my team and getting that all 126 00:06:04,766 --> 00:06:07,990 taken care of and I did that for about a year and a half. 127 00:06:07,990 --> 00:06:11,821 And then I followed a mentor to a 3PL in Canada. 128 00:06:11,821 --> 00:06:14,567 Like there you go, they're going to expand into the US. 129 00:06:14,567 --> 00:06:17,642 I'm going to learn the outside part of the vendor equation 130 00:06:18,223 --> 00:06:19,807 Still lots of clients coming and going. 131 00:06:19,807 --> 00:06:22,380 So there's a good mix and I did that. 132 00:06:22,380 --> 00:06:23,023 I learned a ton. 133 00:06:23,725 --> 00:06:26,160 But right, right about that time about a year and a half into 134 00:06:26,199 --> 00:06:30,548 that so this is probably mid-2013 jda and repair emerged 135 00:06:31,290 --> 00:06:35,747 and the messaging was awful that basically jda came in. 136 00:06:35,747 --> 00:06:38,458 They were used to all these turnkey systems on their side, 137 00:06:38,517 --> 00:06:39,440 more planning up front. 138 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,509 Where you have a problem, turn the lights off at five, come 139 00:06:42,528 --> 00:06:44,583 back in at nine o'clock next morning and deal with it. 140 00:06:44,583 --> 00:06:46,771 Well, on the warehouse, the warehouse management space, it's 141 00:06:46,771 --> 00:06:50,103 24, seven, you're not shipping, you're not making money and 142 00:06:50,163 --> 00:06:50,504 I'll help. 143 00:06:50,504 --> 00:06:51,887 Everything's going to fall apart. 144 00:06:52,550 --> 00:06:56,682 So it was an awesome opportunity for myself and two other guys 145 00:06:56,702 --> 00:07:00,458 that I knew to hang our shingle and start a consulting business. 146 00:07:00,458 --> 00:07:04,790 So my first business and we had no grand plans, it was just 147 00:07:05,050 --> 00:07:05,651 opportunistic. 148 00:07:05,651 --> 00:07:09,728 You know, mercenaries out there for hire until until this new 149 00:07:09,788 --> 00:07:13,122 JDA figured out how to plug the hole and then you know, 150 00:07:13,362 --> 00:07:14,987 basically, you know, eat our lunch. 151 00:07:14,987 --> 00:07:17,391 But I fast forward five years. 152 00:07:17,391 --> 00:07:20,185 We had about 60 people working for us. 153 00:07:20,185 --> 00:07:22,970 We were doing, we were on pace to do about 12 million the year. 154 00:07:22,970 --> 00:07:27,064 That that I pulled away and I it just kept growing, you know 155 00:07:27,084 --> 00:07:30,271 so you you for help me understand this then. 156 00:07:30,290 --> 00:07:32,584 Nate Shutes: So you spend about 10 or 12 years kind of building 157 00:07:32,644 --> 00:07:36,458 the technical knowledge you know both both from a programming 158 00:07:36,497 --> 00:07:38,824 perspective and then you're going out into these various 159 00:07:39,466 --> 00:07:45,408 domains and learning how to apply your technical skills to 160 00:07:45,449 --> 00:07:48,266 different business problems and you fall in love with this one. 161 00:07:48,266 --> 00:07:55,107 But there had to have been a moment where you're leaving the 162 00:07:55,166 --> 00:08:01,074 relative or perceived safety of a corporate job or a W-2 maybe, 163 00:08:02,959 --> 00:08:05,247 and you're like, hey, let's go do this thing on our own. 164 00:08:05,247 --> 00:08:06,331 And it was scary. 165 00:08:06,331 --> 00:08:08,264 Did you guys just like sit around it? 166 00:08:08,264 --> 00:08:10,725 Were you at a bar I'm just picturing you with a cocktail 167 00:08:10,766 --> 00:08:13,365 napkin and you're sketching out a strategy, or was it lunchtime 168 00:08:13,982 --> 00:08:14,603 or how did what? 169 00:08:14,603 --> 00:08:20,170 Was that day like when you and your partner or partners said, 170 00:08:20,339 --> 00:08:21,305 okay, we're going to do this? 171 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:23,524 Casey Winans: It played out like that. 172 00:08:23,524 --> 00:08:26,930 So I guess the backup. 173 00:08:26,930 --> 00:08:30,492 I was looking to move on from the 3PL because there were some 174 00:08:30,713 --> 00:08:32,640 issues where I just wasn't getting the growth I thought I 175 00:08:32,681 --> 00:08:33,744 was promised early on. 176 00:08:33,744 --> 00:08:37,173 And that's why I went and I talked to one of the guys that 177 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:42,035 became my partner, one of my partners, and he's like let's 178 00:08:42,096 --> 00:08:43,660 not do that, let's build something here. 179 00:08:43,660 --> 00:08:46,409 I got this little bit of traction here with one client, 180 00:08:47,222 --> 00:08:48,167 let's figure out what we do. 181 00:08:48,740 --> 00:08:51,466 And I went back to my wife and I'm like I've always wanted to 182 00:08:51,485 --> 00:08:54,388 do this, honey, because I used to read business magazines like 183 00:08:54,427 --> 00:08:54,789 crazy. 184 00:08:54,789 --> 00:08:56,988 It's just one of those like when do I do it? 185 00:08:56,988 --> 00:08:58,003 And I had actually. 186 00:08:58,003 --> 00:09:06,780 So I guess I had a business before this, one client, a 187 00:09:06,801 --> 00:09:07,182 little bit of work. 188 00:09:07,182 --> 00:09:08,485 I made like 10 great 10 grand and it was awesome. 189 00:09:08,485 --> 00:09:09,105 I'm like it felt so liberating. 190 00:09:09,105 --> 00:09:11,572 But then the 3pl I worked for got wind of it and told me 191 00:09:11,631 --> 00:09:15,427 either go full, full time on that one or hang it up. 192 00:09:15,427 --> 00:09:17,732 And I had one client, a little bit of work. 193 00:09:17,732 --> 00:09:20,104 I'm like I can't feed my family , so I put it away. 194 00:09:20,604 --> 00:09:24,552 But that was the catalyst for you know just that, that 195 00:09:24,772 --> 00:09:27,844 building it up Like I wanted to do it and I was feeling kind of 196 00:09:27,884 --> 00:09:30,370 trapped after that in a W2 role. 197 00:09:30,370 --> 00:09:35,727 So, having that lunch, and then from there we went, to excuse 198 00:09:35,768 --> 00:09:39,938 me, a place called McGregor's Draft House in Cary, north 199 00:09:39,958 --> 00:09:41,826 Carolina, and we had lunch there . 200 00:09:41,826 --> 00:09:45,349 Multiple times we were drinking beer literally in the back of a 201 00:09:45,349 --> 00:09:47,847 napkin, like what are we doing here, how do we, how do we get 202 00:09:47,868 --> 00:09:48,450 this going? 203 00:09:48,450 --> 00:09:51,721 And then we spent probably a couple weeks just trying to 204 00:09:51,741 --> 00:09:53,285 figure out what we call ourselves. 205 00:09:53,285 --> 00:09:57,105 That would comprise the three of us, you know, and uh, and 206 00:09:57,505 --> 00:09:59,470 more or less we kind of came back and said, well, what about 207 00:09:59,509 --> 00:10:00,312 mcgregor partners? 208 00:10:00,312 --> 00:10:02,605 There's a story that's the. 209 00:10:02,605 --> 00:10:06,072 You know it's the, it's the cliched, you know, uh, bar back 210 00:10:06,092 --> 00:10:08,408 of a napkin story, and we're partners. 211 00:10:08,587 --> 00:10:10,434 Nate Shutes: So there you go, let's not, it was a brew house 212 00:10:10,996 --> 00:10:12,140 yeah, yeah exactly yeah. 213 00:10:12,701 --> 00:10:14,447 Casey Winans: So lots of guinness and you know whatever 214 00:10:14,506 --> 00:10:14,807 else was. 215 00:10:14,807 --> 00:10:17,441 You know the local stuff as well, but I yeah, that's how it 216 00:10:17,461 --> 00:10:20,083 came to be that's a fantastic that. 217 00:10:20,225 --> 00:10:26,111 Nate Shutes: So there's a storytelling framework that 218 00:10:26,812 --> 00:10:29,216 explains most movies and books that we've all read. 219 00:10:29,216 --> 00:10:33,283 One of my favorite is the Hero's Journey, and that is the 220 00:10:33,322 --> 00:10:34,506 story of the Matrix. 221 00:10:34,506 --> 00:10:37,063 Is Hero's Journey Lord of the Rings? 222 00:10:37,063 --> 00:10:38,629 Is that as well? 223 00:10:38,629 --> 00:10:43,702 And there is a storytelling element inside of those called 224 00:10:43,743 --> 00:10:44,423 the watering hole. 225 00:10:44,423 --> 00:10:45,605 And there's a storytelling element inside of those called 226 00:10:45,625 --> 00:10:47,667 the watering hole and at a certain point in the journey, 227 00:10:47,706 --> 00:10:51,889 before it goes from being an adventure where things are safe 228 00:10:51,951 --> 00:10:54,932 and fun into being a quest where things are kind of life or 229 00:10:54,972 --> 00:10:57,615 death, there's this they call it . 230 00:10:57,615 --> 00:10:58,796 It's a scene in all these movies. 231 00:10:58,796 --> 00:11:07,221 It's called the watering hole and it's that moment where all 232 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:08,442 the friends band together and decide to go off on this quest. 233 00:11:08,461 --> 00:11:11,965 And it's fascinating to me how many entrepreneurs have that 234 00:11:12,024 --> 00:11:14,868 same experience of, okay, we're going to leave the relative 235 00:11:14,908 --> 00:11:18,230 safety of the Shire or RW2 and we're going to go off and try to 236 00:11:18,230 --> 00:11:22,333 slay dragons, and we're in this together and we've come up with 237 00:11:22,333 --> 00:11:30,522 the name for our band of misfits and we raise a couple of 238 00:11:30,522 --> 00:11:31,886 glasses and make a toast and that's maybe the last moment 239 00:11:31,907 --> 00:11:33,472 that things were innocent and fun. 240 00:11:33,472 --> 00:11:37,912 And then it gets real and the danger starts. 241 00:11:37,912 --> 00:11:44,072 So the first month that you and your partners are the safety is 242 00:11:44,072 --> 00:11:44,953 now behind you. 243 00:11:44,953 --> 00:11:48,861 Did you like hit the ground running and things were 244 00:11:48,881 --> 00:11:50,485 happening how you thought they would? 245 00:11:50,485 --> 00:11:53,581 Or was it crickets and you couldn't get a customer to say 246 00:11:53,643 --> 00:11:53,863 yes? 247 00:11:53,863 --> 00:11:56,591 Like what was the really really early stage? 248 00:11:56,591 --> 00:12:00,120 Like when you were fully committed? 249 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:01,000 Casey Winans: Gotcha. 250 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,543 Well, before I dive into that, I want to back up just for a 251 00:12:03,605 --> 00:12:03,945 second. 252 00:12:03,945 --> 00:12:07,708 Sure, there was this conversation I had with my wife 253 00:12:08,791 --> 00:12:11,874 about doing this and leaving the safety of a W-2, or you know, 254 00:12:11,894 --> 00:12:13,716 quote unquote, safety of a W-2. 255 00:12:13,716 --> 00:12:17,576 And her brother was an entrepreneur, basically like 256 00:12:17,677 --> 00:12:18,299 right out of high school. 257 00:12:18,299 --> 00:12:21,149 So I talked to him and he couldn't envision anything else. 258 00:12:21,149 --> 00:12:24,408 So he's like, yeah, bet on yourself, you know the sky's the 259 00:12:24,408 --> 00:12:26,282 limit, envision anything else. 260 00:12:26,282 --> 00:12:27,625 So he's like, yeah, like, bet on yourself, you know the sky's 261 00:12:27,645 --> 00:12:27,866 the limit. 262 00:12:27,866 --> 00:12:29,952 And my wife said the perfect thing to me at that moment in 263 00:12:29,972 --> 00:12:32,961 time was honey, it's just a house, which really implied that 264 00:12:32,961 --> 00:12:35,607 if we lost everything, we still have each other. 265 00:12:35,607 --> 00:12:38,541 We don't care, you know, and that was like freeing, you know. 266 00:12:38,541 --> 00:12:42,427 I teared up, I'm like, okay, I get to get to know, chase my 267 00:12:42,466 --> 00:12:42,927 dream here. 268 00:12:43,489 --> 00:12:47,294 But one of my other partners, literally that month, I actually 269 00:12:47,294 --> 00:12:51,326 you know what, yeah, I had, I had the one partner had a 270 00:12:51,346 --> 00:12:54,243 daughter that was just a couple years old, so, you know, still 271 00:12:54,302 --> 00:12:56,791 on, probably in diapers at that point, if I get the ages right. 272 00:12:56,791 --> 00:12:59,647 And the other one had his second, his youngest, the 273 00:12:59,687 --> 00:13:02,864 daughter, literally that month, or maybe, maybe July, just 274 00:13:02,903 --> 00:13:03,547 before August. 275 00:13:03,547 --> 00:13:08,527 So like we're all like, like we're in it, but at the same 276 00:13:08,547 --> 00:13:10,393 time, like stakes are high, we're nervous, uh. 277 00:13:10,393 --> 00:13:12,460 But first month it went, it went awesome. 278 00:13:12,460 --> 00:13:15,385 I mean, it was one of those things where, uh, the one 279 00:13:15,426 --> 00:13:19,801 partner had already broke into a 3pl and they were insatiable. 280 00:13:19,801 --> 00:13:24,311 You know, just more projects, more projects, tons of work. 281 00:13:24,311 --> 00:13:25,994 Our rates weren't great but they were. 282 00:13:25,994 --> 00:13:28,125 They were feeding us and we were doing all the work and we 283 00:13:28,166 --> 00:13:29,591 had one contractor at that point . 284 00:13:30,260 --> 00:13:33,481 But then the beauty of where we came out of because we all came 285 00:13:33,523 --> 00:13:37,447 out of Red Prairie, jda, now it's Blue Yonder is we'd worked 286 00:13:37,466 --> 00:13:41,163 with clients for years, so it was reaching out to our personal 287 00:13:41,163 --> 00:13:43,145 networks and we'd get some work here and there. 288 00:13:43,145 --> 00:13:44,989 It didn't have to be big in those days, it was just 289 00:13:45,048 --> 00:13:49,054 something to kind of move the needle, but the it was just. 290 00:13:49,054 --> 00:13:50,927 It was crazy. 291 00:13:50,927 --> 00:13:52,265 We were working 80 hour weeks. 292 00:13:52,265 --> 00:13:53,544 We were killing ourselves. 293 00:13:53,544 --> 00:13:54,467 It was. 294 00:13:54,467 --> 00:13:57,369 It was not fun, but fun at the same time. 295 00:13:57,369 --> 00:13:58,845 I mean, the money was awesome. 296 00:13:58,945 --> 00:14:01,086 Seeing that come in like it just opened my world. 297 00:14:01,086 --> 00:14:01,726 We just opened my world. 298 00:14:01,726 --> 00:14:02,548 We were all making low six figures. 299 00:14:02,548 --> 00:14:05,129 Before you know we had moved up to director roles. 300 00:14:05,129 --> 00:14:10,734 So it was like we're quickly surpassing that, wow, okay, uh, 301 00:14:11,614 --> 00:14:12,955 we're gonna need to hire at some point. 302 00:14:12,955 --> 00:14:15,116 So I mean we can kind of get into that piece there too. 303 00:14:15,116 --> 00:14:17,341 But it was just gangbusters and we started getting other 304 00:14:17,361 --> 00:14:19,147 clients coming in and they wanted something. 305 00:14:19,147 --> 00:14:24,166 But by and large we had dhl where it was excel logistics. 306 00:14:24,225 --> 00:14:25,908 At that point DHL turned into. 307 00:14:25,908 --> 00:14:30,043 I mean, you know, they're massive, so we would work for 308 00:14:30,184 --> 00:14:30,765 one director. 309 00:14:30,765 --> 00:14:33,745 Another director will pull us in more projects, clients coming 310 00:14:33,745 --> 00:14:34,148 and going. 311 00:14:34,148 --> 00:14:38,567 So there was just a whole lot of complexity there and we were 312 00:14:38,606 --> 00:14:41,820 there to pick up the pieces and definitely augment their teams 313 00:14:41,860 --> 00:14:44,570 because we had the depth where a lot of their teams internally 314 00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:49,807 they were closer to operation, they didn't know the systems as 315 00:14:49,826 --> 00:14:51,192 well and we could get in and do just about anything in it, even 316 00:14:51,212 --> 00:14:54,706 the nasty, complex, hairy stuff behind the scenes so you're 317 00:14:54,745 --> 00:14:57,557 doing a combination, then, of kind of consulting, 318 00:14:57,778 --> 00:15:00,364 implementation plus software development, kind of 319 00:15:00,403 --> 00:15:01,105 simultaneously. 320 00:15:01,125 --> 00:15:02,927 Nate Shutes: Very much, yeah, very much yeah. 321 00:15:02,927 --> 00:15:09,383 As a business model, consulting is very conducive to, and that 322 00:15:09,403 --> 00:15:11,682 kind of work is very conducive to bootstrapping, because you 323 00:15:11,721 --> 00:15:15,274 don't have to hire, you're not going to get paid yourself for a 324 00:15:15,274 --> 00:15:18,061 while usually, but you're not having to buy equipment, you're 325 00:15:18,081 --> 00:15:22,149 not having to sign a lease or hire a massive staff. 326 00:15:22,149 --> 00:15:25,970 And so how did you and your partners think about cash flow 327 00:15:26,981 --> 00:15:31,312 and keeping the lights on as the business started to grow? 328 00:15:31,312 --> 00:15:34,089 And okay, now we've got to make a couple of different decisions 329 00:15:34,089 --> 00:15:34,089 . 330 00:15:34,089 --> 00:15:36,788 You're getting paid a little bit, but now we've got to take a 331 00:15:36,788 --> 00:15:36,989 risk. 332 00:15:36,989 --> 00:15:39,543 We've got to hire some outsiders, we've got to maybe 333 00:15:39,582 --> 00:15:43,823 get an office and the expense structure changes, which, for 334 00:15:43,865 --> 00:15:45,700 bootstrappers, can be really, really uncomfortable. 335 00:15:46,581 --> 00:15:49,947 Casey Winans: Yeah, well the beauty of what we were doing. 336 00:15:50,307 --> 00:15:54,400 We traveled all the time so, and all of us lived in the raleigh 337 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,008 area at that point, but we didn't need an office because 338 00:15:57,048 --> 00:15:58,700 there was no no one there to do it. 339 00:15:58,759 --> 00:16:01,508 So we would work from each other's homes, if we had to, to 340 00:16:01,548 --> 00:16:03,802 meet up to figure out something, you know logistically around 341 00:16:03,822 --> 00:16:07,510 the business itself, and just daydream and figure out where 342 00:16:07,530 --> 00:16:10,763 we're going, what's working, what's not working, how do we go 343 00:16:10,763 --> 00:16:11,203 forward. 344 00:16:11,203 --> 00:16:14,432 But some of the things I learned from the 3PL I worked 345 00:16:14,471 --> 00:16:19,495 with since I was one of just a small handful of US employees at 346 00:16:19,495 --> 00:16:22,523 that point is they use something called a PEO, a 347 00:16:22,582 --> 00:16:25,849 professional employer organization, and they take care 348 00:16:25,849 --> 00:16:29,640 of a lot of the HR pieces where we effectively, our employees 349 00:16:29,682 --> 00:16:32,330 of our business, are at least to them or at least back to. 350 00:16:32,330 --> 00:16:35,581 Somehow, I don't know, you can work up PEO, but it was a great 351 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,990 way for us to get benefits very quickly, manage payroll, all 352 00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:39,331 these things. 353 00:16:39,331 --> 00:16:42,789 So we had this stuff set up so we could put the contractors in 354 00:16:42,809 --> 00:16:43,311 there as well. 355 00:16:43,311 --> 00:16:47,101 And suddenly you know we could. 356 00:16:47,101 --> 00:16:49,086 We could out compete with some of the other consulting firms 357 00:16:49,106 --> 00:16:51,743 that were popping up at the same time in our same space because 358 00:16:51,903 --> 00:16:53,226 they didn't know those things. 359 00:16:53,508 --> 00:16:55,942 So yeah, it's going to be something I was exposed to and 360 00:16:56,644 --> 00:16:59,152 you know, wearing my business hat, I'm like that's really 361 00:16:59,212 --> 00:16:59,533 smart. 362 00:16:59,533 --> 00:17:02,461 So instantly we got that going, uh. 363 00:17:02,461 --> 00:17:04,642 So that was, that was one piece that helped. 364 00:17:04,642 --> 00:17:07,484 But, yeah, we avoided most of the overhead. 365 00:17:07,484 --> 00:17:12,709 Really, we agreed at some point for taking smaller salaries, 366 00:17:12,749 --> 00:17:15,770 something smaller than what we had had before, and then we 367 00:17:15,810 --> 00:17:17,632 worked on the concept of distributions. 368 00:17:18,133 --> 00:17:21,174 Now, one other thing that we did have in our back pocket was one 369 00:17:21,174 --> 00:17:21,816 of the partners. 370 00:17:22,336 --> 00:17:25,941 His dad had had a business for years and he knew some 371 00:17:25,961 --> 00:17:27,183 accountants down in our area. 372 00:17:27,183 --> 00:17:30,872 So myself and one of the partners went down and we just 373 00:17:30,892 --> 00:17:33,125 sat with him and he gave us some advice in terms of how to 374 00:17:33,144 --> 00:17:33,926 structure some of this. 375 00:17:33,926 --> 00:17:36,942 So that was helpful for the distribution thing. 376 00:17:36,942 --> 00:17:41,788 And then I also had my father-in-law very much pressing 377 00:17:41,788 --> 00:17:46,275 to get a really good operating agreement in place with buy sell 378 00:17:46,275 --> 00:17:51,534 language in there which we can get to, because that's the other 379 00:17:51,534 --> 00:17:54,644 story, uh, to really make sure that when everything is going 380 00:17:54,684 --> 00:17:57,698 well, you guys can agree on terms, potentially, how things 381 00:17:57,738 --> 00:18:01,167 dissolve all the things that can get hairy later on if there are 382 00:18:01,167 --> 00:18:02,411 disputes or anything like that. 383 00:18:02,411 --> 00:18:04,644 So we have these things in our favor. 384 00:18:04,644 --> 00:18:09,192 I didn't really appreciate them at that moment, but it worked 385 00:18:09,252 --> 00:18:09,594 out great. 386 00:18:09,594 --> 00:18:11,516 And then I think there's probably a lot of companies out 387 00:18:11,536 --> 00:18:13,876 there that don't understand that and to get into it without it 388 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:19,123 and hope everything just works out and when it doesn't, that's 389 00:18:19,182 --> 00:18:20,888 not the time to be trying to hash this stuff out. 390 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,930 Nate Shutes: It is an unfortunate and sometimes ironic 391 00:18:24,930 --> 00:18:29,806 reality that the people that you trust the most, that you 392 00:18:29,826 --> 00:18:32,857 want to go into business with you, haven't been tested 393 00:18:33,019 --> 00:18:34,342 together in battle. 394 00:18:34,342 --> 00:18:37,047 You have great ideas together. 395 00:18:37,047 --> 00:18:41,922 You maybe have been co-workers at a company before, and those 396 00:18:42,061 --> 00:18:45,449 operating agreements and partnership agreements matter 397 00:18:45,469 --> 00:18:49,431 the most when things go really really well and there's lots of 398 00:18:49,530 --> 00:18:54,549 money to be split, or when they go really really bad and things 399 00:18:54,589 --> 00:18:55,112 get dicey. 400 00:18:55,112 --> 00:19:01,027 And for most first-time founders I guess I shouldn't say 401 00:19:01,027 --> 00:19:04,304 most for many first-time founders those are uncomfortable 402 00:19:04,304 --> 00:19:08,393 conversations to have early because everything's going well. 403 00:19:08,393 --> 00:19:12,468 Why would I introduce stuff that might be sensitive or might 404 00:19:12,468 --> 00:19:17,506 cause us to not be as close with one another and 405 00:19:18,489 --> 00:19:24,605 uncomfortable at well said, and the reality is, over a long 406 00:19:24,645 --> 00:19:27,431 enough period of time and enough interactions with human beings, 407 00:19:27,431 --> 00:19:32,832 one of the core driving forces is self-interest, and that means 408 00:19:32,832 --> 00:19:33,960 something different to everybody. 409 00:19:34,982 --> 00:19:37,471 You mentioned your co-founders having young children. 410 00:19:37,471 --> 00:19:41,463 They would have totally different personal circumstances 411 00:19:41,463 --> 00:19:44,547 and needs than somebody who's already independently wealthy 412 00:19:44,567 --> 00:19:47,089 and doesn't have any responsibilities, and so those 413 00:19:47,150 --> 00:19:54,019 kinds of agreements can prevent lots of future conflict and in 414 00:19:54,059 --> 00:19:57,910 some cases they can even decide hey, you know what, after we've 415 00:19:58,150 --> 00:20:00,844 gone through this exercise, maybe this structure isn't the 416 00:20:00,884 --> 00:20:04,551 right thing before we even get started, and those are some of 417 00:20:04,573 --> 00:20:07,781 the things that happen when you're a second time founder. 418 00:20:07,781 --> 00:20:09,983 Now you have all of that knowledge and maybe we can 419 00:20:10,084 --> 00:20:12,806 unpack some of that in the next part here. 420 00:20:12,806 --> 00:20:17,608 But if you are considering starting a business and you've 421 00:20:17,628 --> 00:20:22,111 got a buddy or some coworkers or something that you think, hey, 422 00:20:22,151 --> 00:20:27,115 we'd be a great fit to go out and go do this thing, Get an 423 00:20:27,176 --> 00:20:29,211 agreement written up on paper, Talk through. 424 00:20:29,413 --> 00:20:32,141 What percentage of equity is everybody going to own? 425 00:20:32,141 --> 00:20:35,519 What are your responsibilities going to be versus the other 426 00:20:35,559 --> 00:20:35,921 person? 427 00:20:35,921 --> 00:20:38,698 Who's going to be responsible for being the tiebreaker? 428 00:20:38,698 --> 00:20:43,497 When you don't agree and you add those things up, put them on 429 00:20:43,497 --> 00:20:47,413 paper, and your likelihood of avoiding significant issues down 430 00:20:47,413 --> 00:20:51,161 the road just multiplies a hundredfold. 431 00:20:51,161 --> 00:20:54,941 It sounds like, based on what you shared, that you may have 432 00:20:54,980 --> 00:20:56,446 found some challenges down the road. 433 00:20:56,446 --> 00:20:57,570 So what actually happened? 434 00:20:58,372 --> 00:21:00,636 Casey Winans: So we never envisioned it to get as big as 435 00:21:00,696 --> 00:21:00,977 it did. 436 00:21:00,977 --> 00:21:04,044 In fact we were talking about the equity piece you just 437 00:21:04,084 --> 00:21:04,364 mentioned. 438 00:21:04,364 --> 00:21:07,078 So we had accelerators in there . 439 00:21:07,078 --> 00:21:10,980 So the first month getting started we were all making low 440 00:21:11,019 --> 00:21:11,582 six figures. 441 00:21:11,582 --> 00:21:13,894 A lot of us had some kind of savings. 442 00:21:13,894 --> 00:21:17,531 But one of them one of the partners had been doing this for 443 00:21:17,531 --> 00:21:21,127 a little longer had some cash and he was able to give us 444 00:21:21,268 --> 00:21:22,894 short-term loans for the first month. 445 00:21:22,894 --> 00:21:26,047 So that was a cash flow piece to get us through before we 446 00:21:26,067 --> 00:21:28,596 started paying ourselves, and the typical net 30. 447 00:21:28,596 --> 00:21:32,445 You work, then you bill and then you wait because they've 448 00:21:32,486 --> 00:21:35,537 come up with excuses of why the invoice isn't ready yet and all 449 00:21:35,798 --> 00:21:36,480 those fun things. 450 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,096 So that got us through it. 451 00:21:38,096 --> 00:21:40,920 But part of that agreement was there were going to be 452 00:21:42,023 --> 00:21:46,369 accelerators in terms of equity based on that and they seem like 453 00:21:46,369 --> 00:21:47,292 big numbers to us. 454 00:21:47,292 --> 00:21:49,159 You know, a couple million here , a couple million there. 455 00:21:49,159 --> 00:21:52,535 We hit those and then ratchet up and then we're pretty close 456 00:21:52,575 --> 00:21:54,900 to all evenly splitting the pot. 457 00:21:54,900 --> 00:21:56,864 So that happened. 458 00:21:56,864 --> 00:21:58,152 That happened pretty quickly. 459 00:21:58,152 --> 00:22:00,536 So then we revisited the operating agreement to kind of 460 00:22:00,757 --> 00:22:02,720 play with what looks like longer term. 461 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,824 But so we did this for five years. 462 00:22:04,824 --> 00:22:06,795 Tons of clients. 463 00:22:06,795 --> 00:22:09,718 We eventually grew to 60 people . 464 00:22:09,718 --> 00:22:14,500 That first hire was really scary that first year because 465 00:22:14,599 --> 00:22:17,335 you know, suddenly we're on the hook for somebody else's 466 00:22:17,414 --> 00:22:17,916 livelihood. 467 00:22:17,916 --> 00:22:20,875 But that worked out well and then we started hiring, you know 468 00:22:20,875 --> 00:22:23,771 , slowly at first, and then we started doing multiple ones, but 469 00:22:23,771 --> 00:22:25,498 so it ended up being about 60 people. 470 00:22:25,498 --> 00:22:28,175 We were on track to do somewhere close to 12 million 471 00:22:28,195 --> 00:22:29,760 the year 2018. 472 00:22:29,780 --> 00:22:36,540 Wow, but probably that fourth year we really started looking 473 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,768 at what do we want to do and two of the partners wanted to go in 474 00:22:39,768 --> 00:22:43,376 and build software and I liked the idea to an extent being 475 00:22:43,416 --> 00:22:44,440 naive, coming into it. 476 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,915 But at the same time, I was also starting to chase something 477 00:22:48,915 --> 00:22:49,939 called managed services. 478 00:22:49,939 --> 00:22:55,478 So we have SLAs and they're paying us for peace of mind 479 00:22:55,538 --> 00:22:57,717 effectively to jump in when things go sideways. 480 00:22:57,717 --> 00:22:59,474 In a warehouse world. 481 00:22:59,474 --> 00:23:00,759 That's really important. 482 00:23:00,759 --> 00:23:04,333 Vendors can't do it or if they do, it's just to fix defects and 483 00:23:04,333 --> 00:23:06,778 maybe some data, not to understand your operation. 484 00:23:06,778 --> 00:23:09,123 So I got into that. 485 00:23:09,303 --> 00:23:11,795 My first client at that point was Advanced Auto and we learned 486 00:23:11,795 --> 00:23:14,270 a ton in terms of how to structure these deals and they 487 00:23:14,310 --> 00:23:16,057 were massively profitable. 488 00:23:16,057 --> 00:23:19,406 So I'm like that's probably our future. 489 00:23:19,406 --> 00:23:20,169 I like that. 490 00:23:20,169 --> 00:23:23,077 It really kind of plays with the implementation side plus 491 00:23:23,318 --> 00:23:26,457 supporting it long-term, but there's always gaps when you're 492 00:23:26,497 --> 00:23:27,019 doing something. 493 00:23:27,019 --> 00:23:28,162 So that's the software realm. 494 00:23:28,162 --> 00:23:29,571 So we started doing that. 495 00:23:29,571 --> 00:23:32,319 We didn't know how to sell, so we were burning cash on 496 00:23:32,380 --> 00:23:33,411 employees and all that. 497 00:23:33,411 --> 00:23:37,079 And we got great insights for early customers who didn't turn 498 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:37,922 into early customers. 499 00:23:37,922 --> 00:23:41,593 And it was just this dividing piece here where it's like, okay 500 00:23:41,593 --> 00:23:43,374 , five years in, what do we want to do? 501 00:23:43,374 --> 00:23:46,237 I like the idea of stepping back to an extent, maybe trying 502 00:23:46,257 --> 00:23:48,819 something different and, you know, being a sign of partner. 503 00:23:48,819 --> 00:23:51,942 One of my partners liked that for a while, but ultimately, two 504 00:23:51,942 --> 00:23:54,305 of them decided they were going to go double down on software 505 00:23:54,786 --> 00:23:55,566 and I'm nodding, you know. 506 00:24:00,170 --> 00:24:02,297 So middle of 2018, they decided that they were going to buy me 507 00:24:02,317 --> 00:24:02,999 out, and you know it was. 508 00:24:02,999 --> 00:24:03,842 It was bittersweet, you know. 509 00:24:03,842 --> 00:24:05,166 It was one of those things where I knew I wasn't happy, but 510 00:24:05,166 --> 00:24:07,772 at the same time, this is my baby and you know these were my 511 00:24:07,833 --> 00:24:12,009 friends and like this is this is tough, but we had to buy a sale 512 00:24:12,009 --> 00:24:12,391 agreement. 513 00:24:12,391 --> 00:24:14,955 So you know I couldn't stop. 514 00:24:14,955 --> 00:24:29,608 I couldn't stop the sale, but I could negotiate, and one of the 515 00:24:29,608 --> 00:24:30,537 things we had in there that was really good was this concept of 516 00:24:30,537 --> 00:24:31,201 we can each go get our own valuation. 517 00:24:31,201 --> 00:24:32,438 You know, in my mind theirs came back very low, which great 518 00:24:32,351 --> 00:24:32,497 you know, it's. 519 00:24:32,497 --> 00:24:32,906 Just it's the bottom part of it . 520 00:24:32,906 --> 00:24:33,544 They were hoping to get me out quickly, maybe because I'm I'm 521 00:24:33,457 --> 00:24:35,644 pretty past and passive that way , in terms of if it's good for 522 00:24:35,663 --> 00:24:37,470 the business, I would do it typically. 523 00:24:37,470 --> 00:24:42,499 But then I went out and I found a great lawyer on my side who 524 00:24:42,878 --> 00:24:47,212 got me in connection with a great appraiser and this guy 525 00:24:48,317 --> 00:24:48,858 that's all he does. 526 00:24:48,858 --> 00:24:52,979 So he came back with all this other information and it was 527 00:24:53,098 --> 00:24:54,803 like double the valuation. 528 00:24:54,803 --> 00:25:00,342 So it took probably this was the middle of 2018. 529 00:25:00,342 --> 00:25:04,539 We probably didn't finalize the negotiation until sometime in 530 00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:05,583 November, december. 531 00:25:06,691 --> 00:25:08,416 So it was frustrating, right? 532 00:25:08,416 --> 00:25:11,798 Sure, I bet you know, am I getting paid? 533 00:25:11,798 --> 00:25:12,539 What's going on? 534 00:25:12,539 --> 00:25:16,862 I can't talk to people inside the company for valid reasons. 535 00:25:16,862 --> 00:25:18,856 I mean, I'm not throwing anybody under the bus, I get it. 536 00:25:18,856 --> 00:25:21,151 But it really sucked because I couldn't tell my story and I 537 00:25:21,171 --> 00:25:21,734 just kind of disappeared. 538 00:25:21,755 --> 00:25:23,185 But it really sucked because I couldn't tell my story and I 539 00:25:23,205 --> 00:25:23,690 just kind of disappeared. 540 00:25:23,690 --> 00:25:27,659 And then actually the same day, I was told that they're like 541 00:25:27,679 --> 00:25:28,862 hey, we want to buy you out. 542 00:25:28,862 --> 00:25:33,019 My mother-in-law had a stroke and then she ended up dying two 543 00:25:33,059 --> 00:25:33,481 weeks later. 544 00:25:33,481 --> 00:25:37,435 So it was just awful, right, like we were like Alice falling 545 00:25:37,476 --> 00:25:40,692 down the hole, no power thing, our world just getting ripped 546 00:25:40,733 --> 00:25:41,035 apart. 547 00:25:41,035 --> 00:25:42,799 And so we got through that. 548 00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:46,116 We got through the year and this is something that no one 549 00:25:46,156 --> 00:25:47,400 knows, my partners included. 550 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:52,837 We ended up getting life insurance that kept us afloat, 551 00:25:52,959 --> 00:25:55,364 so I couldn't negotiate for it and have to take a smaller deal. 552 00:25:55,364 --> 00:25:58,075 So it was a blessing, huge blessing. 553 00:25:58,075 --> 00:26:02,550 But at the end of it I had to sign a non-compete for two years 554 00:26:02,550 --> 00:26:06,680 and I got a chunk paid up front and then I got a chunk paid 555 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:11,194 every year for several years and that kind of got me through 556 00:26:11,816 --> 00:26:14,039 well, pretty much going into COVID, because COVID kind of 557 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:15,784 really rocked a year later. 558 00:26:15,784 --> 00:26:17,816 But what do you want me to? 559 00:26:17,855 --> 00:26:18,397 Nate Shutes: unpack there. 560 00:26:18,397 --> 00:26:24,382 Well, I mean, first, what I'm picking up on is just how human 561 00:26:24,481 --> 00:26:25,044 all of that is. 562 00:26:25,044 --> 00:26:28,109 That has nothing to do specifically with logistics, it 563 00:26:28,170 --> 00:26:33,682 has nothing to do specifically with finance. 564 00:26:33,682 --> 00:26:40,403 It is just a very intense lived experience of somebody who and 565 00:26:40,442 --> 00:26:43,028 I'm sure if we asked your partners that were there, they 566 00:26:43,048 --> 00:26:44,913 would have a slightly different version of the story and they 567 00:26:44,932 --> 00:26:47,480 would say some of the same things of like yeah, it was 568 00:26:47,500 --> 00:26:48,651 really hard for us too. 569 00:26:49,232 --> 00:26:54,082 But I think we glamorize entrepreneurship I know I do, 570 00:26:54,201 --> 00:27:00,377 I'm guilty of it at times and the realities are it's very hard 571 00:27:00,377 --> 00:27:02,079 , it's very emotional, emotional . 572 00:27:02,079 --> 00:27:06,165 It is a different kind of sleepless night when you're 573 00:27:06,230 --> 00:27:12,980 dealing with equity and distributions and maybe a an 574 00:27:13,121 --> 00:27:15,785 ending, a partnership that's ending that. 575 00:27:15,785 --> 00:27:19,920 There's not a lot of people that can understand that kind of 576 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:20,842 pressure and stress. 577 00:27:20,842 --> 00:27:26,770 I'm sure your wife vividly remembers every week of that and 578 00:27:26,770 --> 00:27:31,540 if she probably flashed back to when you were all starry-eyed 579 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,553 and like, hey, let's go do this thing, and she said it's just a 580 00:27:33,593 --> 00:27:37,576 house, you know, to get to that full circle moment on the other 581 00:27:37,636 --> 00:27:38,058 end of it. 582 00:27:38,058 --> 00:27:39,951 That is. 583 00:27:39,951 --> 00:27:40,976 I mean I'm not going to spend too much time on the 584 00:27:40,996 --> 00:27:42,161 storytelling part of our narrative and how that all works 585 00:27:42,161 --> 00:27:42,161 . 586 00:27:42,161 --> 00:27:42,383 Uh, that is. 587 00:27:42,383 --> 00:27:43,488 I mean, I'm not going to spend too much time on the 588 00:27:43,508 --> 00:27:46,680 storytelling part of of our narrative and how that all works 589 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:46,680 . 590 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,553 But yeah, these are quote life and death and from a financial 591 00:27:50,593 --> 00:27:57,114 standpoint, uh, stakes they're not um fun, they are terrifying. 592 00:27:57,556 --> 00:28:00,090 Casey Winans: Oh yeah, yeah, it's, and it's the typical thing 593 00:28:00,090 --> 00:28:02,752 when you've had a business for a few years lifestyle creep. 594 00:28:02,752 --> 00:28:05,015 Yeah, I bought a new, bigger home. 595 00:28:05,015 --> 00:28:06,517 I had a daughter in college. 596 00:28:06,517 --> 00:28:10,519 I had, at that point, I think, I had my two younger kids. 597 00:28:10,519 --> 00:28:13,542 They had been homeschooled for a while for other reasons 598 00:28:14,324 --> 00:28:17,507 medical for one of them, but I think they were in private 599 00:28:17,527 --> 00:28:25,633 school at that point, right, so I was doing all these things 600 00:28:25,673 --> 00:28:27,097 that were valuable to my kids, really pouring into them, that 601 00:28:27,137 --> 00:28:28,342 required a sizable income, and then suddenly the rugs pulled 602 00:28:28,362 --> 00:28:29,646 out and what do you do and what's going on? 603 00:28:29,646 --> 00:28:31,653 And I had a lot of guilt actually too. 604 00:28:31,653 --> 00:28:33,537 I mean, here's the other human person. 605 00:28:33,637 --> 00:28:37,093 Part of it is for those five years and then years before it I 606 00:28:37,093 --> 00:28:37,934 traveled like crazy. 607 00:28:37,934 --> 00:28:41,631 So it was constantly like I'm seeing my kids grow up through, 608 00:28:41,830 --> 00:28:45,000 you know, facetime, talking to my wife, you know, and odds and 609 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:45,141 ends. 610 00:28:45,141 --> 00:28:48,659 And there was one project I did where I felt like I lived in 611 00:28:48,719 --> 00:28:52,134 Memphis for two and a half years , I mean every week, four days, 612 00:28:52,395 --> 00:28:54,080 four days a week there, constantly. 613 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:55,912 So there was that coming out of it. 614 00:28:55,912 --> 00:28:58,035 So it was relief on one end, you know. 615 00:28:58,035 --> 00:29:01,179 But you know friendships are kind of getting pulled and 616 00:29:01,219 --> 00:29:04,462 pulled apart, ending, you know, uncertainty about what's coming 617 00:29:04,522 --> 00:29:05,044 next to me. 618 00:29:05,044 --> 00:29:05,944 So there's, there's all those. 619 00:29:05,944 --> 00:29:09,896 It's all that human drama that was in there at the end of it 620 00:29:09,916 --> 00:29:13,124 2019, you know, like the very beginning of the year. 621 00:29:13,470 --> 00:29:16,297 So I think it was, I think it was December 31st. 622 00:29:16,297 --> 00:29:20,590 We signed the papers and I was no longer an owner, got a chunk 623 00:29:20,632 --> 00:29:23,840 of money, got the promissory note for X number of payments 624 00:29:24,730 --> 00:29:28,419 and you know, I that was kind of cut out from everything I'd 625 00:29:28,459 --> 00:29:29,442 done for for years. 626 00:29:29,442 --> 00:29:30,490 So what do you do next? 627 00:29:30,490 --> 00:29:32,013 And you have to reinvent yourself. 628 00:29:32,013 --> 00:29:37,311 Or, uh, and and honestly, I did sensationalize entrepreneurship 629 00:29:37,311 --> 00:29:37,311 . 630 00:29:37,311 --> 00:29:40,759 There was a lot of relearning, unlearning at that point, cause 631 00:29:41,580 --> 00:29:43,815 I thought my stuff didn't stink. 632 00:29:43,815 --> 00:29:47,718 I realized that there was a whole bunch of things around 633 00:29:47,758 --> 00:29:51,979 business that I didn't know, that it was just the perfect 634 00:29:52,019 --> 00:29:56,573 storm of being in a space where there was a lot of demand and I 635 00:29:56,593 --> 00:29:58,859 just happened to be able to build and capitalize on a 636 00:29:58,980 --> 00:30:00,673 network when I didn't have it anymore. 637 00:30:00,673 --> 00:30:03,381 You're starting from scratch so much harder. 638 00:30:05,309 --> 00:30:07,153 Nate Shutes: There's also a loss of status. 639 00:30:07,153 --> 00:30:08,056 That happens. 640 00:30:08,056 --> 00:30:11,163 You're used to being in a room and having influence or 641 00:30:11,730 --> 00:30:14,377 authority and the network. 642 00:30:14,377 --> 00:30:18,929 You get customers, you've got suppliers, you've got clout of a 643 00:30:18,929 --> 00:30:23,261 kind, and then one day you realize it was all situational 644 00:30:23,903 --> 00:30:25,328 yeah, I mean true, there's. 645 00:30:25,348 --> 00:30:27,316 Casey Winans: There's folks I haven't talked to since I left 646 00:30:27,415 --> 00:30:30,930 mcgregor, just because you know we there was that six month 647 00:30:31,009 --> 00:30:35,099 period where separation and even before then, like moving into 648 00:30:35,119 --> 00:30:36,750 different roles, where I didn't talk to as much. 649 00:30:36,750 --> 00:30:41,136 So if they listen to this, this is probably their first, uh 650 00:30:41,917 --> 00:30:44,942 guess, perspective of, or at least my perspective of, what 651 00:30:45,002 --> 00:30:46,424 happened and why it happened. 652 00:30:46,424 --> 00:30:48,994 And so I'm I'm pretty private that way. 653 00:30:48,994 --> 00:30:52,093 I overshare sometimes in other spaces, but I've been quiet in 654 00:30:52,113 --> 00:30:54,078 this in terms of detail, but I think. 655 00:30:54,098 --> 00:30:57,135 Nate Shutes: Thank you for for trusting me and our audience 656 00:30:57,236 --> 00:30:59,961 with a very vulnerable insights. 657 00:31:00,002 --> 00:31:05,343 I mean, this is part of why I do what I do is I? 658 00:31:05,343 --> 00:31:11,255 Lots of folks out there are owners themselves, or are about 659 00:31:11,295 --> 00:31:14,929 to be, or have been dreaming about it for years, and I want 660 00:31:15,049 --> 00:31:18,549 to help prepare them, in some cases just tactically. 661 00:31:18,549 --> 00:31:20,816 Hey, you're going to need to get really good at accounting. 662 00:31:20,816 --> 00:31:23,849 You're going to have to understand what a GL code is and 663 00:31:23,849 --> 00:31:28,777 how a balance sheet and the income statement work together 664 00:31:28,877 --> 00:31:31,086 or don't at times and statements of cash Well, you're going to 665 00:31:31,105 --> 00:31:32,048 learn all that kind of stuff. 666 00:31:32,048 --> 00:31:36,097 Plus, you got to be a part-time lawyer, part-time HR generalist 667 00:31:36,097 --> 00:31:40,271 and you're going to miss a lot of your kids' sporting events 668 00:31:40,752 --> 00:31:45,067 and and and and so to help prepare them for those kind of 669 00:31:45,128 --> 00:31:49,077 rough seas that might come, stories like yours, I believe, 670 00:31:49,526 --> 00:31:51,413 add significant value. 671 00:31:52,178 --> 00:31:54,948 Now you can tell somebody else hey, don't make the same 672 00:31:54,968 --> 00:31:55,589 mistakes I did. 673 00:31:55,589 --> 00:31:57,886 And oftentimes people are like no, I think I want to burn my 674 00:31:57,926 --> 00:32:01,578 hand on the stove myself before I listen to what you say. 675 00:32:01,578 --> 00:32:06,089 But now you've gone through it yourself and then you had to sit 676 00:32:06,089 --> 00:32:10,798 out for a couple of years and now you're doing full stride. 677 00:32:10,798 --> 00:32:12,201 So let's shift then. 678 00:32:12,201 --> 00:32:18,232 Second time founder, new organization well, for new name? 679 00:32:18,232 --> 00:32:19,676 Where did full stride come from ? 680 00:32:19,676 --> 00:32:26,218 What does it do and what are you doing differently now in 681 00:32:26,238 --> 00:32:27,800 your next venture, gotcha? 682 00:32:28,061 --> 00:32:32,278 Casey Winans: so in between starting full stride and exiting 683 00:32:32,278 --> 00:32:36,069 McGregor Partners, I had a two-year COVID the ugly part. 684 00:32:36,069 --> 00:32:37,874 I actually took a job. 685 00:32:37,874 --> 00:32:41,046 I was recruited by somebody a peer that used to be a 686 00:32:41,105 --> 00:32:43,173 competitor and I worked there for about a year and a half 687 00:32:43,333 --> 00:32:44,236 heading up advisory. 688 00:32:44,236 --> 00:32:47,913 So I got to learn a lot of the stuff that happens before they 689 00:32:47,933 --> 00:32:50,970 select a vendor and get an implementation, which meant are 690 00:32:51,009 --> 00:32:52,113 we building business cases? 691 00:32:52,113 --> 00:32:53,035 Does it make sense? 692 00:32:53,035 --> 00:32:56,832 Here's different vendors, where are they better, worse for you, 693 00:32:56,832 --> 00:32:58,656 based on what you're trying to achieve. 694 00:32:58,656 --> 00:33:02,571 And then just structuring all that and I did a lot of that 695 00:33:02,653 --> 00:33:04,005 with fixed fee arrangements. 696 00:33:04,005 --> 00:33:07,945 So no longer per hour, you know where this, this, this messy 697 00:33:07,986 --> 00:33:10,288 part of we want more, they want less. 698 00:33:10,288 --> 00:33:12,893 You know, and then we're fighting over inputs and outputs 699 00:33:12,893 --> 00:33:14,675 versus like, what are we achieving? 700 00:33:14,675 --> 00:33:16,557 So I did that for a year and a half. 701 00:33:16,557 --> 00:33:17,219 He retired. 702 00:33:17,219 --> 00:33:22,320 I didn't really mesh well with the rest of the executive team, 703 00:33:22,340 --> 00:33:22,724 so part of the ways. 704 00:33:22,724 --> 00:33:27,675 But taking all the things that I learned there, I wanted to put 705 00:33:27,675 --> 00:33:28,577 into full stride. 706 00:33:28,577 --> 00:33:31,573 And full stride really is like you start slower and you ramp up 707 00:33:31,573 --> 00:33:33,317 and then you're running right. 708 00:33:33,317 --> 00:33:34,832 So that image in your head. 709 00:33:35,708 --> 00:33:38,967 I wanted to work with the mid-sized businesses that 710 00:33:39,588 --> 00:33:42,907 weren't well served by Blue Yonder, the ones that I had seen 711 00:33:42,907 --> 00:33:46,866 buy them, always choked and they struggled long-term if they 712 00:33:46,866 --> 00:33:48,773 didn't just abandon ship at some point. 713 00:33:48,773 --> 00:33:51,951 So I'm like there needs to be somebody there advocating for 714 00:33:51,971 --> 00:33:52,171 them. 715 00:33:52,171 --> 00:33:54,997 And one of the things that didn't go well with my first 716 00:33:55,037 --> 00:33:58,050 business and the one I was working with afterwards is when 717 00:33:58,070 --> 00:34:02,188 your time and materials and your project-based the ones that get 718 00:34:02,188 --> 00:34:05,655 you going early on to feed you eventually are the ones that you 719 00:34:05,655 --> 00:34:08,088 get the scraps or don't even get any attention because you're 720 00:34:08,088 --> 00:34:09,630 chasing ever bigger paydays. 721 00:34:09,630 --> 00:34:13,036 So with McGregor we were going high, six-figure, low, 722 00:34:13,077 --> 00:34:17,413 seven-figure implementations versus the five and six-figure 723 00:34:17,452 --> 00:34:18,155 we did at the beginning. 724 00:34:18,155 --> 00:34:20,132 Same thing with the other company I worked with. 725 00:34:20,132 --> 00:34:24,074 So these other ones, these clients, were getting the scraps 726 00:34:24,074 --> 00:34:25,086 , the ones coming. 727 00:34:25,086 --> 00:34:29,550 They were coming and looking for, say, blue Yonder and you 728 00:34:29,590 --> 00:34:33,086 can potentially pay the subscription fee, maybe pay for 729 00:34:33,146 --> 00:34:36,014 a small implementation, but you're always going to struggle 730 00:34:36,054 --> 00:34:36,335 with this. 731 00:34:36,335 --> 00:34:38,431 They're going to eat you alive because there's all these 732 00:34:38,492 --> 00:34:41,065 assumptions behind the scenes in terms of how it's structured 733 00:34:41,706 --> 00:34:43,653 for large business, not midsize. 734 00:34:43,653 --> 00:34:46,362 So we started looking at that company. 735 00:34:46,382 --> 00:34:48,768 In between, I started looking at other vendors that were maybe a 736 00:34:48,768 --> 00:34:50,831 tier lower, didn't have the partner. 737 00:34:50,831 --> 00:34:54,577 Ecosystems really wanted to grow, wanted some outside 738 00:34:54,777 --> 00:34:56,159 influence partnerships to go. 739 00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:59,391 So I took those agreements and I literally one of them. 740 00:34:59,391 --> 00:35:00,193 I wrote an email. 741 00:35:00,193 --> 00:35:01,766 My wife was like how did that work? 742 00:35:01,766 --> 00:35:04,853 It was maybe six, seven lines. 743 00:35:04,853 --> 00:35:08,646 After I talked to the CEO of one of those vendors and I said, 744 00:35:08,646 --> 00:35:10,552 hey, I made the case, you want partnerships. 745 00:35:10,552 --> 00:35:12,456 You felt like you missed the boat on that one. 746 00:35:12,456 --> 00:35:16,289 What if I build a business that didn't outgrow you and we can 747 00:35:16,309 --> 00:35:16,510 talk? 748 00:35:16,510 --> 00:35:18,650 And he's like, let's do it so instantly. 749 00:35:18,650 --> 00:35:19,072 There you go. 750 00:35:19,072 --> 00:35:20,195 I had my first partnership. 751 00:35:20,195 --> 00:35:23,153 Then I went out and I started the LLC and all that. 752 00:35:23,153 --> 00:35:25,427 But she was kind of dumbfounded Like, how did that work? 753 00:35:25,427 --> 00:35:27,349 I spoke his language. 754 00:35:28,030 --> 00:35:30,012 Nate Shutes: You know if I can deliver great. 755 00:35:30,012 --> 00:35:31,494 So you closed the deal in one email. 756 00:35:31,494 --> 00:35:32,114 Is what you're saying. 757 00:35:32,295 --> 00:35:33,976 Casey Winans: Yeah, more or less that's really what it looked 758 00:35:34,016 --> 00:35:34,197 like. 759 00:35:34,197 --> 00:35:36,259 You know, there was a conversation before that and 760 00:35:36,298 --> 00:35:40,927 some back channel things with some some some folks that I knew 761 00:35:40,927 --> 00:35:42,893 in the industry, but that was how my first partnership started 762 00:35:42,893 --> 00:35:45,990 with a vendor and I went in and I started working. 763 00:35:45,990 --> 00:35:48,826 As you know, I went back to being the guy who was turning 764 00:35:48,846 --> 00:35:51,027 the wrenches and configuration and talking to clients. 765 00:35:51,027 --> 00:35:54,768 So that was that was that was me, my, my deal. 766 00:35:54,768 --> 00:35:56,590 I was going to be an implementation partner for 767 00:35:56,889 --> 00:36:00,291 midsize businesses, midsize vendors, right Connecting the 768 00:36:00,331 --> 00:36:01,472 dots there doing? 769 00:36:01,492 --> 00:36:02,373 Nate Shutes: what does midsize mean? 770 00:36:02,373 --> 00:36:03,652 By the way, can you define that ? 771 00:36:03,652 --> 00:36:06,315 Yeah, so going back. 772 00:36:06,335 --> 00:36:07,994 Casey Winans: I mean anyone that's probably doing. 773 00:36:07,994 --> 00:36:12,157 I guess it's more, so much that I'm trying to get back to that 774 00:36:12,297 --> 00:36:14,157 original thesis because it was a little fuzzy. 775 00:36:14,157 --> 00:36:19,260 But anybody who's looking for WMS at that point, so maybe 776 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,382 outgrowing an ERP or even in the sense of a 3PL, that's the 777 00:36:23,402 --> 00:36:23,922 first system. 778 00:36:23,922 --> 00:36:32,565 You need A big thing to run your operation but they're not 779 00:36:32,585 --> 00:36:34,168 big enough for the big names in the new half, the vendors out 780 00:36:34,188 --> 00:36:34,751 there that want to grow in. 781 00:36:34,751 --> 00:36:36,635 A mid-sized business is great for them. 782 00:36:36,635 --> 00:36:38,318 It's a quicker implementation. 783 00:36:38,318 --> 00:36:39,306 It's the first one. 784 00:36:39,306 --> 00:36:40,769 Land and expand as they grow. 785 00:36:40,769 --> 00:36:43,315 If you do well, it's virtuous. 786 00:36:43,315 --> 00:36:45,871 And then I'm in the middle of figuring okay, well, how do I do 787 00:36:45,871 --> 00:36:48,704 this profitably where I build a team and I don't outgrow 788 00:36:48,764 --> 00:36:49,085 anybody? 789 00:36:49,085 --> 00:36:52,556 They outgrow me and I celebrate it Like that's not something 790 00:36:52,577 --> 00:36:54,101 you see in a typical consulting firm. 791 00:36:54,101 --> 00:36:54,463 That's just. 792 00:36:54,463 --> 00:36:57,090 That's just the business model that doesn't exist. 793 00:36:57,650 --> 00:37:00,376 You know, like my first one, we just kept growing and then 794 00:37:01,067 --> 00:37:03,311 people fell off the bus as we got bigger and bigger, 795 00:37:03,954 --> 00:37:05,137 unfortunately inadvertently. 796 00:37:05,137 --> 00:37:07,826 So I started doing that. 797 00:37:07,826 --> 00:37:12,730 I did that for several months and then I hired my first 798 00:37:12,789 --> 00:37:16,331 employee, paul Hinman, and we were working together and we 799 00:37:16,351 --> 00:37:18,873 were a great middle where you could see, it was sold to 800 00:37:18,893 --> 00:37:32,746 somebody who wasn't ready. 801 00:37:32,746 --> 00:37:37,396 They were typically first-time buyers and we were the ones that 802 00:37:37,396 --> 00:37:39,090 were level setting after the fact. 803 00:37:39,090 --> 00:37:41,438 The vendors kind of liked it, but they didn't like it. 804 00:37:41,438 --> 00:37:46,032 The clients appreciated it, but didn't like it because we were 805 00:37:46,052 --> 00:37:46,936 delivering bad news. 806 00:37:46,936 --> 00:37:50,445 And then we were always the ones getting the black eye and, 807 00:37:50,465 --> 00:37:51,606 regardless of us being there or not, we could see the ones 808 00:37:51,626 --> 00:37:52,768 getting the black eye and, regardless of us being there or 809 00:37:52,788 --> 00:37:54,831 not, we could see the other projects going on with some of 810 00:37:54,851 --> 00:37:57,193 these vendors and they never, really ever, transitioned to 811 00:37:57,835 --> 00:37:59,277 fully supported live. 812 00:37:59,277 --> 00:38:06,505 They were tethered and there was no real leadership on that 813 00:38:06,525 --> 00:38:06,806 side of things. 814 00:38:06,826 --> 00:38:08,789 So it was coming in and you're asking the customer what they 815 00:38:08,849 --> 00:38:13,695 want versus leading them with some type of process, and so at 816 00:38:13,715 --> 00:38:18,039 the at the very end of 2023, I pulled back. 817 00:38:18,039 --> 00:38:20,507 I'm like this is this is enough , it's, it's, it's a lot of 818 00:38:20,547 --> 00:38:21,309 money, it's great money. 819 00:38:21,309 --> 00:38:24,791 I can probably keep hiring this way, but I hate my life again, 820 00:38:25,275 --> 00:38:27,284 like I don't want to build another body shop and that's the 821 00:38:27,284 --> 00:38:30,432 effectively what you know where I'd worked outside of vendors. 822 00:38:30,432 --> 00:38:31,945 I'm like I don't want to do that. 823 00:38:31,945 --> 00:38:33,030 I want this to be meaningful. 824 00:38:33,030 --> 00:38:37,264 I love helping people and I want to help American businesses 825 00:38:37,264 --> 00:38:38,969 effectively. 826 00:38:38,969 --> 00:38:41,755 The mid-sized mama pops getting bigger, maybe getting into 827 00:38:41,795 --> 00:38:45,434 private equity, but I want to have a meaningful impact there. 828 00:38:45,434 --> 00:38:48,786 I don't want to get them after they've gone corporate because 829 00:38:48,967 --> 00:38:51,373 then I'm just talking to a middle manager who doesn't have 830 00:38:51,414 --> 00:38:52,115 real say. 831 00:38:52,115 --> 00:38:53,871 I'm like I want to talk to the leaders. 832 00:38:54,744 --> 00:38:58,731 So we stepped back and the big question I had in my mind was 833 00:38:59,353 --> 00:39:01,076 what does across my career? 834 00:39:01,076 --> 00:39:03,519 I've been doing this for 20 years what's the commonality? 835 00:39:03,519 --> 00:39:08,034 And my thought process then was no one's ever really ready when 836 00:39:08,034 --> 00:39:08,416 they buy. 837 00:39:08,416 --> 00:39:10,601 Was no one's ever really ready when they buy. 838 00:39:10,601 --> 00:39:11,914 No one really talks about all the stuff at the business level 839 00:39:11,934 --> 00:39:12,577 that should be done. 840 00:39:12,577 --> 00:39:16,427 That would help influence who you're working with but also 841 00:39:17,269 --> 00:39:18,875 impact all the things that come along. 842 00:39:18,875 --> 00:39:22,045 You know, when you get into configuration and design there's 843 00:39:22,045 --> 00:39:25,344 I can't tell you the number of times I've gone into a meeting 844 00:39:25,806 --> 00:39:28,210 and I've asked a simple question at least I assumed it was 845 00:39:28,230 --> 00:39:35,838 simple and you get multiple answers and people look at each 846 00:39:35,782 --> 00:39:37,123 other kind of shocked like oh, you're not thinking the same way 847 00:39:37,123 --> 00:39:38,403 I am and instantly like guess what that derails the project? 848 00:39:38,403 --> 00:39:39,461 We're going to spend more time in design than anyone 849 00:39:39,461 --> 00:39:43,132 anticipated, and unless you get more budget, something's going 850 00:39:43,152 --> 00:39:45,648 to have to give, which is training, testing, go live, 851 00:39:45,668 --> 00:39:49,096 support, all the things down the road that are like forever away 852 00:39:49,096 --> 00:39:51,846 , and I'm like that's, that's the part we need to fix. 853 00:39:52,646 --> 00:39:54,451 So we started brainstorming. 854 00:39:54,451 --> 00:39:56,416 I'm like what have I done that's been successful? 855 00:39:56,416 --> 00:39:59,771 And that's when we started carving up and coming up with 856 00:39:59,791 --> 00:40:00,572 something called Clarity. 857 00:40:00,572 --> 00:40:03,126 First, and it's a framework. 858 00:40:03,126 --> 00:40:05,713 I have three big questions, with questions inside of that, 859 00:40:06,474 --> 00:40:09,449 all geared towards letting people know should you invest 860 00:40:09,489 --> 00:40:11,153 now and most of the time? 861 00:40:11,153 --> 00:40:13,547 If it's not, yes, it's not yet, because if you're growing, 862 00:40:13,768 --> 00:40:14,793 eventually you're going to need one. 863 00:40:14,793 --> 00:40:18,514 And then there's things behind it that are objective. 864 00:40:18,514 --> 00:40:22,692 Another one is where aren't you ready, which is a hard pill for 865 00:40:22,692 --> 00:40:23,434 people to swallow. 866 00:40:23,434 --> 00:40:29,094 So we get into that Unpacking that around teams, process data, 867 00:40:29,094 --> 00:40:32,947 all the things that an ERP doesn't necessarily need or will 868 00:40:32,947 --> 00:40:33,590 probably should. 869 00:40:33,590 --> 00:40:38,264 But you can get away with it because there's another aspect 870 00:40:38,344 --> 00:40:39,550 to the whole operation that way. 871 00:40:39,550 --> 00:40:42,951 But so we started doing that and that's where we went full 872 00:40:42,990 --> 00:40:46,213 into it, and I've walked away from a lot of revenue to get 873 00:40:46,233 --> 00:40:46,375 there. 874 00:40:47,646 --> 00:40:51,943 It was pretty painful and then eventually, since we weren't 875 00:40:51,963 --> 00:40:55,251 getting traction until just after uh, I had to. 876 00:40:55,251 --> 00:40:56,114 I had to let that guy go. 877 00:40:56,114 --> 00:40:58,807 You know which was like losing your right arm. 878 00:40:58,807 --> 00:40:59,851 It really sucked. 879 00:40:59,851 --> 00:41:01,815 And it was at that perfect time though, too. 880 00:41:01,815 --> 00:41:04,490 He was getting married, he was buying a house. 881 00:41:04,490 --> 00:41:05,893 They want to start a family. 882 00:41:05,893 --> 00:41:07,925 He needed stability that I couldn't give him. 883 00:41:07,925 --> 00:41:11,777 Where, where I'm I'm second time I can do this. 884 00:41:11,777 --> 00:41:13,952 My wife works, so there's some cushion there too. 885 00:41:13,952 --> 00:41:19,530 Two of my kids are out of the house at this point, so it's 886 00:41:19,550 --> 00:41:20,333 just different all around. 887 00:41:20,333 --> 00:41:21,690 They weren't then, but they are now. 888 00:41:23,545 --> 00:41:26,251 So I bit the bullet and said, well, I'm going to go double 889 00:41:26,293 --> 00:41:30,153 down on the mission-based piece of this, and so I had to start 890 00:41:30,195 --> 00:41:30,697 from scratch. 891 00:41:30,697 --> 00:41:33,088 I had to get my message out there, figure out how to talk to 892 00:41:33,088 --> 00:41:36,516 people, figure out how do I get in front of an audience. 893 00:41:36,516 --> 00:41:39,391 Podcasts became part of that plan Right on. 894 00:41:39,391 --> 00:41:41,985 Little by little, towards the middle of the year, I started 895 00:41:42,007 --> 00:41:46,280 getting more leads coming in, and so I didn't have to do any 896 00:41:46,340 --> 00:41:47,865 weird consulting gigs anymore. 897 00:41:47,865 --> 00:41:51,394 That kind of kept the lights on , but, you know, divided your 898 00:41:51,434 --> 00:41:54,983 attention Didn't really, didn't really help my mission, and I've 899 00:41:54,983 --> 00:41:56,045 been doing it ever since. 900 00:41:56,266 --> 00:41:58,492 It's not it's not something where I'm getting enough 901 00:41:58,552 --> 00:42:00,217 traction yet to hire a team. 902 00:42:00,217 --> 00:42:03,251 It's like feast and famine I'll get a couple, then there's a, 903 00:42:03,371 --> 00:42:13,007 there's a, there's a you know dry spot, and then I get more. 904 00:42:13,007 --> 00:42:13,969 So it's it's like start and stop jerky. 905 00:42:13,969 --> 00:42:15,112 So I'm in survival mode still at this point, you know. 906 00:42:15,112 --> 00:42:16,315 And then I've been looking for what's in my. 907 00:42:16,315 --> 00:42:20,226 Am I pulling too much versus, or am I pushing too much versus 908 00:42:20,286 --> 00:42:21,909 pulling where clients are coming to me? 909 00:42:21,909 --> 00:42:22,911 And this is a problem. 910 00:42:22,911 --> 00:42:24,454 So I have the. 911 00:42:24,454 --> 00:42:28,514 I guess I'm blessed enough to know that I have, if I can be, 912 00:42:28,755 --> 00:42:32,626 I'm finding the fit and I'm going to have something that I 913 00:42:32,666 --> 00:42:35,635 enjoy doing long-term, that I can build a team around and I 914 00:42:35,675 --> 00:42:39,130 can choose to either sell it or keep going and maybe run it 915 00:42:39,170 --> 00:42:42,077 forever and sponsor other businesses, cause that's how my 916 00:42:42,117 --> 00:42:42,557 brain works. 917 00:42:42,844 --> 00:42:44,731 Nate Shutes: I always see other opportunities, but you got to 918 00:42:44,771 --> 00:42:49,067 pick one and go with it, and well, Casey, I love your honesty 919 00:42:49,067 --> 00:42:52,931 , just the way you talk about the realities of, because 920 00:42:52,951 --> 00:42:57,795 there's a temptation to over-represent size, like for a 921 00:42:57,835 --> 00:42:58,394 lot of startups. 922 00:42:58,394 --> 00:43:01,318 They, oh, we're a global company because one of their 923 00:43:01,378 --> 00:43:04,501 founders, you know, was born in Canada. 924 00:43:04,501 --> 00:43:06,822 You know, no, you're not global . 925 00:43:06,822 --> 00:43:10,773 Somebody's address is another thing, yeah, and sort of like 926 00:43:10,813 --> 00:43:14,286 puff up and try to appear as something that you're not, and 927 00:43:14,547 --> 00:43:19,990 it sounds like your approach is the opposite and it might take 928 00:43:20,072 --> 00:43:23,338 longer as a result, to get, maybe, where you want to get. 929 00:43:23,338 --> 00:43:28,275 But it sounds like you have a much deeper sense of clarity 930 00:43:28,315 --> 00:43:31,902 about how you want to run a business, this time around very 931 00:43:31,922 --> 00:43:36,451 much, and you're zooming out and looking at the whole family 932 00:43:36,510 --> 00:43:41,987 experience and the financial side of it and the the impact on 933 00:43:41,987 --> 00:43:42,768 your employees. 934 00:43:42,768 --> 00:43:46,416 You mentioned the one that had to leave um to start a family 935 00:43:47,117 --> 00:43:50,686 and those are the kinds of learnings that you can't read 936 00:43:50,746 --> 00:43:51,047 about. 937 00:43:51,047 --> 00:43:52,449 I wish we could. 938 00:43:52,449 --> 00:43:57,132 I wish somebody else could just download all of the learnings 939 00:43:57,172 --> 00:44:00,494 and then apply them immediately and increase their odds of 940 00:44:00,554 --> 00:44:00,974 success. 941 00:44:00,974 --> 00:44:06,878 Two or three X, but that's just not human nature when folks are 942 00:44:06,878 --> 00:44:10,942 willing to talk about these things in such a candid and 943 00:44:10,981 --> 00:44:11,463 frank way. 944 00:44:11,463 --> 00:44:17,847 And I don't know what happens next for you, of course, but I 945 00:44:17,947 --> 00:44:23,291 love that you are putting yourself out there, because I'm 946 00:44:23,911 --> 00:44:27,527 convinced that when you show up that way, there are some people 947 00:44:27,688 --> 00:44:30,795 out there that are absolutely attracted to that way of doing 948 00:44:30,856 --> 00:44:33,713 things, and we just try to connect them. 949 00:44:34,164 --> 00:44:37,614 So when we grow awareness for smaller businesses, you don't 950 00:44:37,635 --> 00:44:38,297 have it all figured out. 951 00:44:38,297 --> 00:44:42,030 You're not a $50 million a year thing, you're very early in the 952 00:44:42,030 --> 00:44:46,215 process and we want to offer that support to you. 953 00:44:46,215 --> 00:44:49,947 I also just love talking warehousing and WMS and all that 954 00:44:49,947 --> 00:44:50,869 stuff myself too. 955 00:44:50,869 --> 00:44:54,771 So selfishly we could record for a couple more hours because 956 00:44:54,831 --> 00:44:56,932 I want to know what those three questions are that you ask. 957 00:44:56,992 --> 00:44:59,375 I've implemented a WMS myself. 958 00:44:59,375 --> 00:45:04,438 I've opened new facilities under an existing ERP that had a 959 00:45:04,438 --> 00:45:07,862 WMS module inside of it and I couldn't change anything because 960 00:45:07,862 --> 00:45:11,664 it was a copy paste of all the other distribution centers and 961 00:45:11,704 --> 00:45:14,909 it didn't quite work for the way I wanted to do it, and so I 962 00:45:15,010 --> 00:45:22,385 feel the pain of having been the user of the WMS, and so maybe 963 00:45:22,427 --> 00:45:26,355 you and I we need to have our own McGregor brew house 964 00:45:26,956 --> 00:45:30,166 conversation sometime, and I want to pick your brain on all 965 00:45:30,186 --> 00:45:34,032 the ways to do it more expertly in the future. 966 00:45:34,032 --> 00:45:40,286 When you think now, wrapping up , who is the type of business or 967 00:45:40,286 --> 00:45:44,476 somebody that you would be a great fit for, that should reach 968 00:45:44,476 --> 00:45:44,878 out to you. 969 00:45:46,045 --> 00:45:47,827 Casey Winans: It's funny you say that because we were talking 970 00:45:47,847 --> 00:45:50,572 about the geeking out on the business side. 971 00:45:50,572 --> 00:45:56,039 So one thing I've discovered recently is I had a referral 972 00:45:56,079 --> 00:45:57,380 from another podcast I was on. 973 00:45:57,380 --> 00:45:58,630 This was a small 3PO. 974 00:45:58,630 --> 00:46:03,065 They were morphing from FBA prep into a full-blown 3PO and 975 00:46:03,387 --> 00:46:04,713 they realized they need some help. 976 00:46:04,713 --> 00:46:07,434 They had tried WMS themselves a year before. 977 00:46:07,434 --> 00:46:10,414 It didn't go well for all the reasons of why I do what I do. 978 00:46:10,414 --> 00:46:15,157 So pulled me in and while I was working with them, they were 979 00:46:15,398 --> 00:46:19,289 captivated by the quick wins that I offer, which I just do as 980 00:46:19,289 --> 00:46:21,655 a you know like hey, this kind of helps offset my fees. 981 00:46:21,655 --> 00:46:25,619 Well, they, they drank it up and they were so approachable 982 00:46:25,900 --> 00:46:27,146 and you know they're a small business. 983 00:46:27,146 --> 00:46:29,771 So there's, you know there's not a big budget for consulting. 984 00:46:29,771 --> 00:46:32,697 I'm probably the first one they've worked with, or maybe in 985 00:46:32,697 --> 00:46:34,309 a long time, because they had a bad taste in their mouth. 986 00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:35,472 That's what I'm up against. 987 00:46:35,472 --> 00:46:40,273 But so I'm really thinking about doubling down in that 988 00:46:40,333 --> 00:46:44,231 space of upstart 3PLs, because they need, they need the WMS 989 00:46:44,251 --> 00:46:45,494 right off, right out of the gate . 990 00:46:45,846 --> 00:46:47,733 I've been working with distributors too, but there's 991 00:46:47,753 --> 00:46:53,748 that, that, that milestone of we've finally outgrown the erp 992 00:46:53,768 --> 00:46:56,197 with the module, wms module and everyone is in alignment with 993 00:46:56,237 --> 00:46:58,606 that, or they're at least asking the question where I can come 994 00:46:58,626 --> 00:47:00,371 in and help paint the picture of yes or no. 995 00:47:00,371 --> 00:47:02,115 You should do this, 3pls. 996 00:47:02,115 --> 00:47:06,132 It's much earlier, uh, the organization's more flat so we 997 00:47:06,152 --> 00:47:07,335 can have the conversations. 998 00:47:07,335 --> 00:47:08,985 They enjoy this, this content. 999 00:47:08,985 --> 00:47:09,728 That's where they found me. 1000 00:47:09,728 --> 00:47:13,456 I can be real, super real and polished, or corporate, yep, you 1001 00:47:13,456 --> 00:47:16,585 know all the things that I, I value, I might, this, I get to 1002 00:47:16,605 --> 00:47:17,489 be more, uh it's. 1003 00:47:17,610 --> 00:47:20,461 It's a combination of the warehouse management guy but 1004 00:47:20,521 --> 00:47:23,231 also the business consultant guy , because I come in and ask like 1005 00:47:23,231 --> 00:47:25,965 are you capturing all the revenue you should be capturing? 1006 00:47:25,965 --> 00:47:29,233 Because I know in a 3po world, you know labor is massively 1007 00:47:29,273 --> 00:47:32,391 expensive, the margins are low and what I'm seeing you do here, 1008 00:47:32,391 --> 00:47:33,373 do you capture that? 1009 00:47:33,373 --> 00:47:36,673 Because if you're not doing it consistently, you're giving 1010 00:47:36,713 --> 00:47:40,132 people free rides and that's killing you on the back end here 1011 00:47:40,132 --> 00:47:40,994 , whether you see it or not. 1012 00:47:40,994 --> 00:47:44,451 So I love that part and that's really kind of opened my eyes. 1013 00:47:44,451 --> 00:47:46,431 How do I get in front of more of those folks? 1014 00:47:52,364 --> 00:47:53,588 And I've met so many other entrepreneurs that have networks 1015 00:47:53,588 --> 00:47:54,954 in that realm, either like matchmakers or other some other 1016 00:47:54,994 --> 00:47:57,161 offshoots of that, that are like oh yeah, we bump into these 1017 00:47:57,224 --> 00:47:57,847 folks all the time. 1018 00:47:57,847 --> 00:48:00,112 We we don't have any way to help them Like, well, yeah, 1019 00:48:00,974 --> 00:48:04,050 perfect client for me, let's, let's, let's help them make them 1020 00:48:04,050 --> 00:48:04,331 bigger. 1021 00:48:04,331 --> 00:48:13,065 They're good for you, I help them, you help me, so everybody 1022 00:48:13,085 --> 00:48:13,186 wins. 1023 00:48:13,186 --> 00:48:14,570 So that's where I think I'm really going on that side of 1024 00:48:14,610 --> 00:48:14,771 things. 1025 00:48:14,771 --> 00:48:16,074 It's it's the smaller upside upstarts, and that might not 1026 00:48:16,094 --> 00:48:16,795 just be 3pls, I don't know. 1027 00:48:16,956 --> 00:48:20,130 I've bumped into some brands on the e-com side that really want 1028 00:48:20,150 --> 00:48:22,157 to get in and do their own fulfillment and they have the 1029 00:48:22,184 --> 00:48:24,856 same challenges of yeah, what do we do early on? 1030 00:48:24,856 --> 00:48:25,538 What do we do? 1031 00:48:25,538 --> 00:48:28,889 We're kind of figuring out and making it work, but is it dumb? 1032 00:48:28,889 --> 00:48:31,536 Like you know, are we doing things the hard way, versus like 1033 00:48:31,536 --> 00:48:34,603 you come in and tell us to make a change and suddenly you know 1034 00:48:34,623 --> 00:48:36,047 we're three times more productive. 1035 00:48:36,047 --> 00:48:38,572 So that's the kind of stuff I like now. 1036 00:48:38,572 --> 00:48:41,106 My big challenge now is how do I make that profitable for me 1037 00:48:41,186 --> 00:48:43,853 long term, where I can build, sure, and not just be limited to 1038 00:48:43,853 --> 00:48:44,474 me? 1039 00:48:45,255 --> 00:48:46,358 Nate Shutes: so well. 1040 00:48:46,358 --> 00:48:51,471 It's a another puzzle to solve and that's what you've made your 1041 00:48:51,471 --> 00:48:57,298 career on is connecting the dots, moving the Rubik's Cube 1042 00:48:57,338 --> 00:49:00,222 around digitally to support the physical world that needs to be 1043 00:49:00,262 --> 00:49:06,474 moved around, and the four-wall ecosystem of a warehouse is so 1044 00:49:06,675 --> 00:49:09,840 underestimated and misunderstood . 1045 00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:18,215 The complexity inside of it is astounding and also just a lot 1046 00:49:18,235 --> 00:49:18,536 of fun. 1047 00:49:18,536 --> 00:49:22,246 It's where the real work gets done. 1048 00:49:22,246 --> 00:49:25,954 Tons of hardworking people that get up in the middle of the 1049 00:49:26,034 --> 00:49:28,137 night, three o'clock in the morning, four o'clock in the 1050 00:49:28,197 --> 00:49:40,188 morning, show up at a distribution center an hour 1051 00:49:40,208 --> 00:49:41,672 later and get to work and lifting heavy things and walking 1052 00:49:41,672 --> 00:49:42,996 long distances and driving heavy and sometimes dangerous 1053 00:49:43,036 --> 00:49:44,059 equipment, and they're interacting alongside 1054 00:49:44,119 --> 00:49:49,472 technologists and finance professionals and customer teams 1055 00:49:49,472 --> 00:49:52,599 , and I always like to tip my hat to them. 1056 00:49:53,326 --> 00:49:55,592 I'm responsible for a distribution center right now, 1057 00:49:55,891 --> 00:50:01,090 you know, with around 30 or 40 people, and I always love to 1058 00:50:01,190 --> 00:50:04,657 honor them because they do the work that doesn't get seen and 1059 00:50:04,757 --> 00:50:10,713 if we, you know leadership and technologists and vendors do our 1060 00:50:10,713 --> 00:50:13,059 jobs really, really well, they also benefit. 1061 00:50:13,704 --> 00:50:17,855 It's a safer work environment, it's more ergonomic, it is less 1062 00:50:17,914 --> 00:50:19,425 taxing, it's more intelligent. 1063 00:50:19,425 --> 00:50:24,076 How it's done and engaging those folks in that kind of work 1064 00:50:24,076 --> 00:50:30,329 is a blast, yeah, and so, yeah, it keeps lighting the fire for 1065 00:50:30,369 --> 00:50:35,295 me talking to you, casey, because I it's easy to get lost 1066 00:50:35,375 --> 00:50:39,380 in the business of business sometimes and need to zoom out 1067 00:50:39,420 --> 00:50:40,481 and say, why are we doing this? 1068 00:50:40,481 --> 00:50:41,161 Oh, that's right. 1069 00:50:41,161 --> 00:50:44,432 Mostly do everything that we do for people, our families, our 1070 00:50:44,472 --> 00:50:49,193 teams, our customers, and so thanks for bringing that full 1071 00:50:49,233 --> 00:50:53,014 circle today and we wish you nothing but the best. 1072 00:50:53,014 --> 00:50:57,235 Again, I always end by saying we're all rooting for you. 1073 00:50:57,235 --> 00:51:01,954 We really are, and I can't wait until you get up to full stride 1074 00:51:01,954 --> 00:51:06,492 yourself, and then we can come back and do an update in a year 1075 00:51:06,753 --> 00:51:08,737 and say, hey, where are they now , casey, what's up? 1076 00:51:08,737 --> 00:51:10,550 And we can hear from you. 1077 00:51:10,550 --> 00:51:12,010 But thanks again for being here today. 1078 00:51:12,331 --> 00:51:12,974 Casey Winans: Yeah, my pleasure. 1079 00:51:12,974 --> 00:51:13,798 Thank you for having me. 1080 00:51:13,798 --> 00:51:15,545 This was therapeutic for me. 1081 00:51:15,545 --> 00:51:19,275 Just, you know it's in your head, so getting it out there in 1082 00:51:19,275 --> 00:51:20,097 intelligible ways. 1083 00:51:21,385 --> 00:51:21,746 Nate Shutes: Well you did. 1084 00:51:21,746 --> 00:51:23,914 You did a great job, and I know there's going to be tons of 1085 00:51:23,934 --> 00:51:26,429 folks that learn a lot from the journey that you've shared so 1086 00:51:26,489 --> 00:51:28,876 far and that will be rooting for you too. 1087 00:51:28,876 --> 00:51:32,085 Thanks, casey. 1088 00:51:32,085 --> 00:51:32,425 Awesome Hope. 1089 00:51:32,425 --> 00:51:34,067 So, all right, take care. 1090 00:51:34,067 --> 00:51:36,748 Thanks for listening to another episode of the Bootstrapper's 1091 00:51:36,789 --> 00:51:39,369 Guide to Logistics, and a special thank you to our 1092 00:51:39,409 --> 00:51:42,371 sponsors and the team behind the scenes who make it all possible 1093 00:51:42,371 --> 00:51:42,371 . 1094 00:51:42,371 --> 00:51:45,875 Be sure to like, follow or subscribe to the podcast to get 1095 00:51:45,894 --> 00:51:46,675 the latest updates. 1096 00:51:46,675 --> 00:51:49,737 To learn more about the show and connect with the growing 1097 00:51:49,777 --> 00:51:53,179 community of entrepreneurs, visit logisticsfounderscom. 1098 00:51:53,179 --> 00:51:57,001 And, of course, thank you to all the founders who trust us to 1099 00:51:57,001 --> 00:51:57,742 share their stories.