1 00:00:33,262 --> 00:00:35,267 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Bootstrapper's Guide to 2 00:00:35,307 --> 00:00:37,932 Logistics, the podcast highlighting founders doing it 3 00:00:37,951 --> 00:00:39,634 the way that doesn't get a lot of attention. 4 00:00:39,634 --> 00:00:42,567 We're here to change that by sharing their stories and 5 00:00:42,606 --> 00:00:44,070 inspiring others to take the leap. 6 00:00:44,070 --> 00:00:48,010 It's a roller coaster ride that you might ultimately fail. 7 00:00:48,010 --> 00:00:50,567 That's when I kind of knew I was on to something. 8 00:00:50,567 --> 00:00:52,126 It was very hard. 9 00:00:52,126 --> 00:00:54,548 It truly is building a legacy. 10 00:00:55,260 --> 00:00:57,789 Speaker 2: The more life you live, the more wisdom you have. 11 00:00:58,340 --> 00:01:00,606 Speaker 1: Because we are where we're supposed to be, kind of 12 00:01:00,748 --> 00:01:01,751 answering the call. 13 00:01:01,751 --> 00:01:04,728 Don't shoulder entrepreneurship on your own. 14 00:01:04,728 --> 00:01:06,634 I'm your host, nate Schutz. 15 00:01:06,634 --> 00:01:09,704 Let's build something together from the ground up. 16 00:01:12,412 --> 00:01:15,200 Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Bootstrapper's Guide 17 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:15,960 to Logistics. 18 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:19,649 We continue sharing stories of founders and supply chain, like 19 00:01:19,688 --> 00:01:22,454 we have going on almost four years now. 20 00:01:22,454 --> 00:01:25,489 Which is absolutely mind-boggling to me that after 21 00:01:25,528 --> 00:01:28,543 four years there's still interest in the stories of the 22 00:01:28,603 --> 00:01:31,968 people that start the companies, more so than just what the 23 00:01:32,009 --> 00:01:33,109 companies themselves do. 24 00:01:33,109 --> 00:01:41,501 And that's what I think the universal appeal is is we love 25 00:01:41,521 --> 00:01:42,963 seeing people accomplish difficult things in the face of 26 00:01:42,983 --> 00:01:44,387 adversity and overcoming odds and sharing their painful 27 00:01:44,427 --> 00:01:46,852 lessons, often with others, so that they don't have to make the 28 00:01:46,852 --> 00:01:47,460 same mistakes. 29 00:01:47,460 --> 00:01:51,688 And it takes a special kind of person to be willing to open up 30 00:01:52,090 --> 00:01:55,846 and share the not so pretty details, because what you see on 31 00:01:55,846 --> 00:01:59,564 social media is usually just the victories, and we intended 32 00:01:59,644 --> 00:02:00,748 to do some of that. 33 00:02:00,808 --> 00:02:04,102 Of course there's a lot of value in that, but there's often more 34 00:02:04,102 --> 00:02:08,352 value in the hardship and the stories that don't see the light 35 00:02:08,352 --> 00:02:11,483 of day, and so I don't know exactly where we're going to end 36 00:02:11,483 --> 00:02:16,069 up on that arc of a story today , but our guest is Mark 37 00:02:16,129 --> 00:02:18,774 Cleveland, who is an executive. 38 00:02:18,774 --> 00:02:21,302 He's been a six-time founder. 39 00:02:21,302 --> 00:02:23,927 He has as an investor. 40 00:02:23,927 --> 00:02:27,620 He now focuses on the M&A space and does a lot of work in the 41 00:02:27,661 --> 00:02:28,562 supply chain arena. 42 00:02:28,562 --> 00:02:33,913 Your resume is too long for me to go any deeper than that, mark 43 00:02:33,913 --> 00:02:33,913 . 44 00:02:33,913 --> 00:02:37,401 Good morning, welcome to the show, and I'm glad we're finally 45 00:02:37,401 --> 00:02:38,424 getting a chance to do this. 46 00:02:39,126 --> 00:02:41,551 Speaker 2: Yeah, we've tried this two or three times. 47 00:02:41,551 --> 00:02:43,241 It's like a third time's the charm. 48 00:02:43,641 --> 00:02:44,022 Speaker 1: It is. 49 00:02:44,022 --> 00:02:49,573 So with a career as rich and storied as yours, can you give 50 00:02:49,652 --> 00:02:53,909 us a fly overview of what you've done in the supply chain 51 00:02:53,949 --> 00:02:57,460 industry first, and then we can shift into your entrepreneurial 52 00:02:57,639 --> 00:02:58,020 pursuits? 53 00:02:59,122 --> 00:03:02,408 Speaker 2: Wow Depends on how far back the helicopter can fly. 54 00:03:02,408 --> 00:03:07,846 I got involved in the transportation industry as a 55 00:03:07,906 --> 00:03:09,790 test, a personal test. 56 00:03:09,790 --> 00:03:15,145 I had started a satellite communications installation and 57 00:03:15,725 --> 00:03:20,401 services business right out of college and a software business. 58 00:03:20,401 --> 00:03:22,526 I ran both of those companies. 59 00:03:22,526 --> 00:03:25,140 An enterprise software development company in the 80s 60 00:03:25,241 --> 00:03:31,068 was kind of avant-garde and satellite TV installations, 61 00:03:32,009 --> 00:03:35,574 satellite master antenna television systems for cable 62 00:03:35,594 --> 00:03:39,480 head ends and, you know, hotels and motels, that kind of thing. 63 00:03:40,122 --> 00:03:48,399 Um, I, I sold both those companies and I decided that, uh 64 00:03:48,399 --> 00:03:51,564 , I'd gotten a lot of feedback as an entrepreneur and an owner 65 00:03:51,705 --> 00:03:56,443 over an eight year period, that, uh, nine years, I, that, I, I, 66 00:03:56,484 --> 00:03:57,868 of course I own the company. 67 00:03:57,868 --> 00:04:00,990 I should be motivated and I should be highly excited about 68 00:04:01,030 --> 00:04:02,766 it and I should be drive, drive, drive. 69 00:04:02,766 --> 00:04:10,123 And you know, maybe I expect too much of other people and I 70 00:04:10,163 --> 00:04:11,848 thought, well, I'm the next. 71 00:04:11,848 --> 00:04:15,574 After I sold my company, I'm going to go to work for the most 72 00:04:15,574 --> 00:04:20,287 boring business I can possibly imagine and test myself and see 73 00:04:20,366 --> 00:04:24,293 if I could be the employee that I always expected everyone else 74 00:04:24,354 --> 00:04:24,595 to be. 75 00:04:24,595 --> 00:04:41,944 And Jubitz Truck Stop in Portland, oregon, which turned 76 00:04:41,985 --> 00:04:43,668 out to be the Disneyland of truck stops, and a family-run 77 00:04:43,688 --> 00:04:47,257 business by Fred and Al Jubitz and Mo Jubitz A spectacular 78 00:04:47,577 --> 00:04:51,944 career opportunity, but now I'm an employee with no stock and 79 00:04:52,764 --> 00:04:56,209 I'm working in the truck stop industry, which, of course, 80 00:04:56,589 --> 00:05:01,435 turned into opportunities to work at DAT with that fabulous 81 00:05:01,495 --> 00:05:07,524 management team and we sold tire and retread manufacturing plant 82 00:05:07,524 --> 00:05:13,711 products that we controlled, provide services and facilitate 83 00:05:14,432 --> 00:05:20,603 over-the-road and regional trucking organizations, plus DAT 84 00:05:20,603 --> 00:05:23,771 , with the nation's largest database of available freight 85 00:05:23,790 --> 00:05:24,533 loads and trucks. 86 00:05:24,533 --> 00:05:28,014 I got a chance to work with Joel McGinley and Mark Cameron 87 00:05:28,033 --> 00:05:30,562 and a whole bunch of spectacular people over the years. 88 00:05:30,562 --> 00:05:35,612 Yeah, it turned out to be a spectacularly interesting 89 00:05:35,673 --> 00:05:36,033 business. 90 00:05:43,884 --> 00:05:45,168 Speaker 1: Yeah, it turned out to be a spectacularly 91 00:05:45,187 --> 00:05:46,752 interesting business and I think I proved that I could be the 92 00:05:46,773 --> 00:05:48,276 employee I always expected everyone to be, and then you got 93 00:05:48,276 --> 00:05:49,379 the itch eventually to move on to another thing. 94 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:56,605 Speaker 2: I know you also spent time doing Trip Pack, which I 95 00:05:56,625 --> 00:05:57,913 assume was adjacent to the truck stop industry, just with what 96 00:05:57,932 --> 00:05:58,214 it actually is. 97 00:05:58,214 --> 00:05:59,199 I got recruited to join truckload management inc. 98 00:05:59,199 --> 00:06:04,108 Which was the brand owner of trip pack, and we had 3 000 drop 99 00:06:04,108 --> 00:06:09,802 boxes and shipping and consigning and fleet uh terminal 100 00:06:09,802 --> 00:06:11,485 locations nationwide. 101 00:06:11,485 --> 00:06:16,913 Uh overnight courier business that we then consolidated and 102 00:06:16,973 --> 00:06:20,903 sorted and distributed with our own courier network fleet 103 00:06:21,024 --> 00:06:25,872 documents, expedited delivery and my mission. 104 00:06:25,872 --> 00:06:30,108 I came in to take the technology that we had been 105 00:06:30,149 --> 00:06:34,339 developing and really scale it because we have the documents 106 00:06:34,500 --> 00:06:35,704 before anybody else does. 107 00:06:35,764 --> 00:06:38,603 This is before truck stop scanning and we were a leader in 108 00:06:38,603 --> 00:06:43,937 that space this is before imaging in the phone and 109 00:06:43,997 --> 00:06:47,826 reliable document movement by apps, and we were of course 110 00:06:48,007 --> 00:06:50,552 pioneering those activities as well. 111 00:06:50,552 --> 00:06:55,670 But we had a football field full of people handling CRST and 112 00:06:55,670 --> 00:06:59,401 Swift and Schneider documents and it was a really fascinating 113 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:04,271 thing to be in a position where for about five years I saw all 114 00:07:04,771 --> 00:07:08,865 of the dispatch data for a vast majority of America's trucking 115 00:07:08,906 --> 00:07:13,600 companies in one place In service to those fleets. 116 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:18,733 I learned an awful lot and we performed very, very well and 117 00:07:18,779 --> 00:07:23,170 eventually the company sold to ACS Affiliated Computer Services 118 00:07:23,170 --> 00:07:26,423 out of Dallas and that gave me my opportunity to work for a 119 00:07:26,463 --> 00:07:28,307 Fortune 500 company for a few years. 120 00:07:29,149 --> 00:07:31,245 Speaker 1: And so you just kept evolving One of the things that 121 00:07:31,326 --> 00:07:32,290 already stands out. 122 00:07:32,290 --> 00:07:35,000 Of course, you and I have had 100 conversations, so I know how 123 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:39,488 your mind works, but for our listeners you hinted at a few 124 00:07:39,550 --> 00:07:39,990 things there. 125 00:07:39,990 --> 00:07:43,562 With TripPack, you saw an opportunity to innovate with 126 00:07:45,605 --> 00:07:50,473 data basically access to data earlier than others With Jubits, 127 00:07:50,473 --> 00:07:53,485 and then on the DAT side, sort of the same idea. 128 00:07:53,485 --> 00:07:57,593 You're pioneering some new insight or some new value that 129 00:07:57,632 --> 00:08:03,391 can be unlocked from an asset that's not being unlocked, and I 130 00:08:03,391 --> 00:08:09,324 think that that's a part of entrepreneurship that doesn't 131 00:08:09,403 --> 00:08:10,985 get enough attention. 132 00:08:11,206 --> 00:08:14,088 We focus a lot on the hustle and grind culture. 133 00:08:14,088 --> 00:08:19,776 We focus a lot on the Silicon Valley guy in a garage startup 134 00:08:19,855 --> 00:08:24,326 narrative, but we often don't talk about being able to see 135 00:08:24,466 --> 00:08:28,713 around the corner when nobody else has done anything yet. 136 00:08:28,713 --> 00:08:32,466 It's easy to follow a business model that somebody else created 137 00:08:32,466 --> 00:08:36,613 , but to be able to see the early signs of change in an 138 00:08:36,752 --> 00:08:42,831 industry or in technology as a whole seems to be one of your 139 00:08:43,814 --> 00:08:47,802 unique abilities that you can find that rare insight inside of 140 00:08:47,802 --> 00:08:53,773 a mass of information and and take out the noise and just find 141 00:08:53,773 --> 00:08:54,274 the signal. 142 00:08:54,274 --> 00:08:56,928 And then you're one of those folks that you just go. 143 00:08:56,928 --> 00:08:58,001 You're a deep ender. 144 00:08:58,001 --> 00:09:02,672 You go off the deep end all the way into that opportunity. 145 00:09:02,672 --> 00:09:07,187 So how do you, or what do you, attribute that skillset to? 146 00:09:08,471 --> 00:09:09,094 Speaker 2: Interesting we. 147 00:09:09,094 --> 00:09:10,277 We can go back. 148 00:09:10,277 --> 00:09:12,466 I spent nine years at Jubits Corporation. 149 00:09:12,466 --> 00:09:13,350 We could go all the way back to that. 150 00:09:13,350 --> 00:09:14,114 I was an entrepreneur before that. 151 00:09:14,114 --> 00:09:14,596 At Jubitz Corporation. 152 00:09:14,596 --> 00:09:15,340 We could go all the way back to that. 153 00:09:15,340 --> 00:09:21,440 I was an entrepreneur before that. 154 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,125 But at Jubitz I had an intentional process to sit down 155 00:09:27,205 --> 00:09:33,480 with a roundtable, a driver's roundtable, truckers and at 156 00:09:33,681 --> 00:09:38,924 least twice a week for nine years and I gained a little 157 00:09:38,945 --> 00:09:44,869 weight doing this I would host truck drivers America's finest 158 00:09:45,089 --> 00:09:51,572 humans in, listen to the conversation and contribute to 159 00:09:51,633 --> 00:09:52,333 it, but lead it. 160 00:09:52,333 --> 00:10:01,450 I guess it feels like now, upon deep reflection. 161 00:10:01,450 --> 00:10:04,240 It feels a little bit like I was a podcast host with eight 162 00:10:04,282 --> 00:10:08,826 guests and eight people in the audience every single week, 163 00:10:09,246 --> 00:10:14,260 consistently looking for and listening for signals and 164 00:10:15,745 --> 00:10:18,191 they're closer to the market and closer to the problem. 165 00:10:18,191 --> 00:10:23,390 And we did essentially product development out of that activity 166 00:10:23,390 --> 00:10:27,802 and you know, if you're a Silicon Valley executive, you 167 00:10:27,842 --> 00:10:32,393 might not consider going to get knee deep and elbow wide with a 168 00:10:32,432 --> 00:10:34,043 trucker in that industry. 169 00:10:34,043 --> 00:10:36,091 I found that I respected them more. 170 00:10:36,091 --> 00:10:40,104 I appreciated their work, I understood what a fleet's 171 00:10:40,164 --> 00:10:44,039 challenges might be to operate and dispatch and you know, as 172 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:49,312 you continue to work through, the great superpower I think is 173 00:10:49,392 --> 00:10:49,793 listening. 174 00:10:52,100 --> 00:10:54,025 Speaker 1: That's where the insights come from, to begin 175 00:10:54,066 --> 00:10:54,206 with. 176 00:10:55,109 --> 00:10:57,095 Speaker 2: That's where the insights come from. 177 00:10:57,095 --> 00:11:00,980 To begin with, I think so, and a good idea might be an entity 178 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:01,261 all by itself. 179 00:11:01,261 --> 00:11:06,609 I like to imagine ideas as spiritual inspirations, little 180 00:11:06,749 --> 00:11:09,732 light bulbs floating around the universe, landing in my head 181 00:11:09,833 --> 00:11:14,486 trying to be born, and then, if I don't give it care, attention 182 00:11:14,527 --> 00:11:17,583 and water, it can never sprout and it leaves my brain and comes 183 00:11:17,583 --> 00:11:20,370 to yours, nate, because you're a fertile ground for making 184 00:11:20,431 --> 00:11:21,011 something happen. 185 00:11:21,011 --> 00:11:24,788 But I feel like ideas. 186 00:11:24,788 --> 00:11:28,655 They present themselves, and then it's about dedication and 187 00:11:28,716 --> 00:11:29,100 execution. 188 00:11:29,100 --> 00:11:35,571 How can you feed that and pull the energy that exists out of 189 00:11:35,591 --> 00:11:39,482 that listening experience and that idea and translate it into 190 00:11:39,743 --> 00:11:40,083 action? 191 00:11:40,083 --> 00:11:42,827 Um, I've done it a lot, I. 192 00:11:42,827 --> 00:11:49,643 I don't know why it's easy for me, um, but it is well, there's 193 00:11:49,703 --> 00:11:51,066 a creative element to it. 194 00:11:51,787 --> 00:11:54,350 Speaker 1: Um, that is unique also. 195 00:11:54,350 --> 00:11:56,033 And I, I play music. 196 00:11:56,033 --> 00:11:58,115 I can't read a lick of it, but I can play by ear. 197 00:11:58,115 --> 00:12:01,948 If somebody, if I hear a melody , I can go over to the piano and 198 00:12:01,948 --> 00:12:02,328 play it. 199 00:12:02,328 --> 00:12:05,163 Or I can grab a guitar and figure it out in a couple of 200 00:12:05,224 --> 00:12:07,070 minutes, and to me that is not difficult. 201 00:12:07,070 --> 00:12:11,715 But, um, to others they're like wow, that's an incredible skill 202 00:12:11,715 --> 00:12:14,640 and it comes so easily to me that I almost take it for 203 00:12:14,660 --> 00:12:14,961 granted. 204 00:12:14,961 --> 00:12:15,841 And I assume you're. 205 00:12:15,841 --> 00:12:20,408 You, you not take it for granted, but you, you're leaning 206 00:12:20,408 --> 00:12:24,775 into your superpowers, which you know. 207 00:12:24,775 --> 00:12:26,278 For you they're not difficult. 208 00:12:26,538 --> 00:12:30,875 Speaker 2: So post, let's, let's move past the kind of your 209 00:12:30,955 --> 00:12:44,955 early logistics ventures Then what was the idea that floated 210 00:12:44,975 --> 00:12:50,960 through the air and also accepting the fact that I don't 211 00:12:51,019 --> 00:12:54,482 know enough to make all the right decisions. 212 00:12:54,482 --> 00:13:00,572 And if you combine those things , I was right. 213 00:13:00,572 --> 00:13:03,394 After I left TripPack, we had a great. 214 00:13:03,394 --> 00:13:07,039 I had a great mergers and acquisitions experience there as 215 00:13:07,039 --> 00:13:14,794 somebody that got bought and, wow, I wanted to learn more 216 00:13:14,835 --> 00:13:16,379 about American manufacturing. 217 00:13:16,379 --> 00:13:19,764 I just spent a long period of time outsourcing jobs. 218 00:13:19,764 --> 00:13:23,533 You know, today the logistics industry is outsourcing jobs to 219 00:13:23,855 --> 00:13:24,395 Columbia. 220 00:13:24,395 --> 00:13:30,335 Or you know it's taking in Pakistan labor arbitrage. 221 00:13:30,335 --> 00:13:32,259 We were doing this in 2000. 222 00:13:32,259 --> 00:13:37,253 But what we were doing was taking Crete Carriers and their 223 00:13:38,195 --> 00:13:41,669 document management, opening mailroom teams. 224 00:13:41,669 --> 00:13:44,426 We were outsourcing their mailroom and imaging systems and 225 00:13:44,426 --> 00:13:46,110 also providing workflow for them. 226 00:13:46,110 --> 00:13:50,326 So I'm in the transportation industry and I see, then we sold 227 00:13:50,326 --> 00:13:52,774 to ACS and next thing, you know , we're in a follow the sun 228 00:13:52,793 --> 00:13:53,095 model. 229 00:13:53,095 --> 00:13:57,471 We've got I have 56 developers working for me all over the 230 00:13:57,513 --> 00:14:01,647 world and follow the sun model means you're distributing your 231 00:14:01,687 --> 00:14:04,193 workforce to where it's the least expensive and you're 232 00:14:04,294 --> 00:14:08,894 networked and the business model really lent itself to being 233 00:14:08,934 --> 00:14:09,876 efficient in that way. 234 00:14:10,806 --> 00:14:15,457 But I became super aware of the cost of job outsourcing. 235 00:14:15,457 --> 00:14:22,527 It made sense when it was from Nebraska to Ohio, but all of a 236 00:14:22,567 --> 00:14:25,976 sudden, I'm seeing it at scale internationally and globally and 237 00:14:25,976 --> 00:14:27,408 working and participating in that. 238 00:14:27,408 --> 00:14:31,147 So what I wanted to do was see if I could create jobs in the 239 00:14:31,187 --> 00:14:33,273 United States and what could I do? 240 00:14:33,273 --> 00:14:38,326 That would be a job creator and eventually, the criteria for 241 00:14:38,447 --> 00:14:39,610 getting into the stock business. 242 00:14:39,610 --> 00:14:42,717 There's four or five things that I wanted to do specifically 243 00:14:42,717 --> 00:14:44,246 into the stock business. 244 00:14:44,246 --> 00:14:46,791 There's four or five things that I wanted to do specifically 245 00:14:46,791 --> 00:14:49,134 Be a market leader, create a brand, be green from the start 246 00:14:49,195 --> 00:14:55,009 as a startup, be a technology leader and best in class. 247 00:14:55,009 --> 00:14:59,258 So I was looking at chicken processing plants to buy or 248 00:15:00,547 --> 00:15:05,056 packaging food packaging systems and eventually what happened 249 00:15:05,096 --> 00:15:11,053 was I decided to buy a position in Ellsworth Handcrafted 250 00:15:11,073 --> 00:15:14,931 Bicycles and help my junior high buddy after I left this big 251 00:15:14,971 --> 00:15:16,095 Fortune 500 job. 252 00:15:16,095 --> 00:15:22,414 I'm helping him do US domestic high-end mountain bike 253 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:25,539 manufacturing in the United States. 254 00:15:26,225 --> 00:15:29,174 This is how I dropped some weight from my career. 255 00:15:29,174 --> 00:15:33,874 I said you know, I'm going to have to change the things I pay 256 00:15:33,933 --> 00:15:37,572 my professional attention to in order to drop 60 pounds here. 257 00:15:37,572 --> 00:15:42,701 And I became a bicycle manufacturer and I started 258 00:15:42,741 --> 00:15:45,905 traveling globally and expanding my global supply chain 259 00:15:45,966 --> 00:15:51,116 experience and re-engineering the supply chain in order to 260 00:15:51,157 --> 00:15:53,106 make the world's best mountain bike. 261 00:15:53,106 --> 00:15:56,254 So in order to promote the world's best mountain bike, I 262 00:15:56,315 --> 00:16:01,893 started a event management company that did 12-hour exotic 263 00:16:02,394 --> 00:16:07,285 and long-distance exotic cycling events with world-class 264 00:16:07,346 --> 00:16:07,947 competitors. 265 00:16:07,947 --> 00:16:13,499 So I'm at one of those events and in order to promote the 266 00:16:13,538 --> 00:16:17,596 event, to promote the experience , I went to this sock 267 00:16:17,636 --> 00:16:22,552 manufacturing teeny, tiny little activity and I bought 600 pairs 268 00:16:22,552 --> 00:16:27,207 of socks and I put my logo on them for the event and for 269 00:16:27,248 --> 00:16:30,153 Ellsworth and gave them away. 270 00:16:31,336 --> 00:16:32,539 But this event was unique. 271 00:16:32,539 --> 00:16:33,863 It's like 2006. 272 00:16:33,863 --> 00:16:38,331 It's the first time that female mountain bikes, female mountain 273 00:16:38,331 --> 00:16:42,868 bike professionals, were paid the same as male mountain bike 274 00:16:43,008 --> 00:16:44,374 professionals for a podium. 275 00:16:44,374 --> 00:16:46,890 I just looked at that and said you're kidding me. 276 00:16:46,890 --> 00:16:49,806 The females win 500 bucks and the guys win a thousand. 277 00:16:49,806 --> 00:16:53,354 You know, it's that sort of dichotomy. 278 00:16:53,354 --> 00:16:59,105 And so we had all the professional female racers from 279 00:16:59,206 --> 00:17:01,852 all over the country came out of the woodwork to compete in this 280 00:17:01,852 --> 00:17:05,750 event and support it our first year, and so did all the guys. 281 00:17:05,924 --> 00:17:12,558 So we had this Olympic event and all 600 socks got given away. 282 00:17:12,558 --> 00:17:17,952 And at the end of that day we're drinking beer like you 283 00:17:17,992 --> 00:17:22,358 would at a festival mountain bike race and chatting about how 284 00:17:22,358 --> 00:17:24,811 exciting it was, and people were coming up to me saying, 285 00:17:25,164 --> 00:17:26,508 yeah, this was a great race. 286 00:17:26,508 --> 00:17:29,195 And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, where did you get these 287 00:17:29,275 --> 00:17:30,238 freaking socks? 288 00:17:30,238 --> 00:17:34,592 And if I heard that like 150 times that night. 289 00:17:34,592 --> 00:17:39,526 People had just put that product to an intense market 290 00:17:39,586 --> 00:17:43,453 research project and I didn't know it was happening until I 291 00:17:43,575 --> 00:17:47,469 recognized it and I thought, wow , that's the business I'm going 292 00:17:47,489 --> 00:17:51,865 to get in and it fit all the criteria for best in class high 293 00:17:51,905 --> 00:17:54,030 technology US domestic production. 294 00:17:54,030 --> 00:17:56,356 And that's how SwiftWake was born. 295 00:17:57,444 --> 00:18:02,957 Speaker 1: So again, you are rare in the way that you go 296 00:18:02,997 --> 00:18:04,038 about solving problems. 297 00:18:04,038 --> 00:18:06,689 I can't imagine what it would be like to have been in your 298 00:18:06,749 --> 00:18:11,276 family around this period of time when I'm sure some around 299 00:18:11,415 --> 00:18:13,519 you were like, no, let's not let him leave the house because 300 00:18:13,538 --> 00:18:14,641 he's going to start another company. 301 00:18:14,641 --> 00:18:17,250 Like if he runs into somebody at the hardware store and he 302 00:18:17,289 --> 00:18:19,796 can't find the right hammer, he's going to go try to build it 303 00:18:19,796 --> 00:18:20,958 , make a new hammer company. 304 00:18:20,958 --> 00:18:22,490 Does that ring true? 305 00:18:23,065 --> 00:18:24,372 Speaker 2: It feels exactly like that Even when I swear I'm not 306 00:18:24,323 --> 00:18:24,680 going to go try to build it, make a new hammer company. 307 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:24,801 Does that ring true? 308 00:18:24,801 --> 00:18:26,336 It feels exactly like that Even when I swear I'm not going to 309 00:18:26,376 --> 00:18:27,318 start another company. 310 00:18:27,318 --> 00:18:30,210 I'm right now, like right now, in the middle of starting a new 311 00:18:30,250 --> 00:18:31,053 company, right now. 312 00:18:32,526 --> 00:18:33,710 Speaker 1: Which would be company number? 313 00:18:34,813 --> 00:18:38,261 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I just sold one, which makes it seven 314 00:18:38,383 --> 00:18:40,833 companies that I've started and sold in seven different 315 00:18:40,873 --> 00:18:47,085 industries, and this one will be yet a new industrial activity. 316 00:18:47,085 --> 00:18:48,351 We're going for some patents. 317 00:18:48,351 --> 00:18:52,705 I'll come back and tell you, maybe in a future episode, what 318 00:18:52,726 --> 00:18:53,087 we did. 319 00:18:53,087 --> 00:18:57,131 That blew people's hair off and it's really exciting because 320 00:18:57,171 --> 00:18:58,494 it's a fantastic idea. 321 00:18:58,494 --> 00:19:02,471 And these are the things like when you see a really good idea 322 00:19:02,612 --> 00:19:38,207 and then you go how in the world has this not been done? 323 00:19:38,207 --> 00:19:40,432 And you do a patent search and you look all over the market and 324 00:19:40,432 --> 00:19:43,018 you can't find anything and you're scratching your head. 325 00:19:43,018 --> 00:19:46,609 Well, it's up to your action-oriented, 326 00:19:47,190 --> 00:19:54,500 experience-based decision-making , human creative body to act. 327 00:19:55,767 --> 00:19:58,409 Speaker 1: This is a dangerous question and I'm going to ask 328 00:19:58,450 --> 00:20:00,316 you in advance to not be diplomatic. 329 00:20:00,316 --> 00:20:04,151 Of the companies that you've started, do you have a favorite? 330 00:20:06,616 --> 00:20:10,814 Speaker 2: Yes, swiftwick was the most fun because I lost the 331 00:20:10,854 --> 00:20:11,416 most weight. 332 00:20:11,416 --> 00:20:17,182 I was really, really intentional about building a 333 00:20:17,244 --> 00:20:22,711 company with A players from day one and we recruited salespeople 334 00:20:22,711 --> 00:20:24,536 that would go run 50 miles for lunch. 335 00:20:24,536 --> 00:20:31,182 Some of them qualified for Ironman National Championships 336 00:20:31,244 --> 00:20:31,644 in Kona. 337 00:20:31,644 --> 00:20:38,275 These were incredibly dedicated , physically fit men and women 338 00:20:38,674 --> 00:20:41,920 who you know I got to get my game on. 339 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,151 To hang around, yeah, yeah, to hang around them right and to 340 00:20:46,211 --> 00:20:46,613 lead them. 341 00:20:46,613 --> 00:20:48,491 You know the CEO sets the weather. 342 00:20:51,067 --> 00:20:52,030 Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? 343 00:20:53,125 --> 00:20:56,776 Speaker 2: Well, it's an emotional and a spiritual and a, 344 00:20:56,776 --> 00:20:58,029 I think, a real thing. 345 00:20:58,029 --> 00:21:02,168 Maybe the CEO's most important role and we've talked about this 346 00:21:02,168 --> 00:21:05,759 recently is is, uh, to set the weather in the company. 347 00:21:05,759 --> 00:21:07,965 Um, the weather patterns. 348 00:21:07,965 --> 00:21:11,554 If we come in and it's a rainy, gloomy day, then we set the 349 00:21:11,574 --> 00:21:12,496 weather we're up to. 350 00:21:12,496 --> 00:21:15,446 We're supposed to be creating environments for other people to 351 00:21:15,446 --> 00:21:19,576 be successful, which includes acquiring resources. 352 00:21:19,576 --> 00:21:21,166 It includes making good decisions. 353 00:21:21,166 --> 00:21:25,035 It includes sometimes passing the decisions down to the front 354 00:21:25,075 --> 00:21:29,288 line where they can be made faster, and then occasionally 355 00:21:29,930 --> 00:21:31,994 using those as training opportunities and learning 356 00:21:32,173 --> 00:21:32,735 opportunities. 357 00:21:32,855 --> 00:21:40,016 But you set the weather by your attitude, and I had an 358 00:21:40,076 --> 00:21:43,286 experience there where the people that I hired and the 359 00:21:43,467 --> 00:21:46,177 nature of their chew-through-nails, 360 00:21:46,900 --> 00:21:50,873 goal-oriented attitude and the fact that we were building the 361 00:21:50,913 --> 00:21:53,912 world's best sock that set my weather. 362 00:21:53,912 --> 00:21:59,434 I had to go learn how to take better care of myself and to put 363 00:21:59,434 --> 00:22:04,917 some of my own needs as a leader and a human first, which 364 00:22:04,997 --> 00:22:10,160 included a fitness regimen and a commitment to learning that I 365 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,101 formalized in that window of time. 366 00:22:12,101 --> 00:22:13,942 So I think Swiftwick is my favorite. 367 00:22:13,942 --> 00:22:19,591 I still own a tiny piece, sold that business, but I'm 368 00:22:19,631 --> 00:22:22,351 interested in their success and they still make the world's best 369 00:22:22,351 --> 00:22:22,673 sock. 370 00:22:23,445 --> 00:22:26,286 Speaker 1: So you mentioned having a framework for Actually, 371 00:22:26,286 --> 00:22:27,932 I do have a Swiftwick request. 372 00:22:27,932 --> 00:22:31,143 By the way, I'd love to see a golf sock added to the 373 00:22:31,163 --> 00:22:31,384 collection. 374 00:22:32,086 --> 00:22:34,595 Speaker 2: Well, every Swiftwick sock is a golf sock. 375 00:22:34,595 --> 00:22:37,766 Um, and there's a story there too. 376 00:22:38,870 --> 00:22:40,336 Speaker 1: I actually wear them when I golf. 377 00:22:40,336 --> 00:22:42,664 Uh, I just wish there was a version that was a little lower 378 00:22:42,805 --> 00:22:43,026 cut. 379 00:22:43,026 --> 00:22:46,034 But that's a that's a separate show we can do yeah, that, 380 00:22:46,074 --> 00:22:52,892 that's a canoe sock, that's for your wife Uh, come for the 381 00:22:52,932 --> 00:22:54,294 logistics, stay for the humor. 382 00:22:54,294 --> 00:22:55,976 Uh, we, we we. 383 00:22:56,076 --> 00:22:57,577 Speaker 2: We had an opportunity . 384 00:22:57,577 --> 00:22:59,801 Um, we went after golf. 385 00:22:59,801 --> 00:23:02,371 This is a good lesson for any business. 386 00:23:02,371 --> 00:23:07,224 Uh, my partner was an avid golfer, still is I. 387 00:23:07,224 --> 00:23:10,730 I was not so much of an avid golfer but I I could see that 388 00:23:10,892 --> 00:23:14,219 golf market would be great and we went after it. 389 00:23:14,219 --> 00:23:17,886 And we went after it with a vengeance, with a really 390 00:23:17,947 --> 00:23:21,576 talented golf professional to help us with that. 391 00:23:21,576 --> 00:23:27,192 And she just wasn't successful and we withdrew from the market. 392 00:23:27,192 --> 00:23:30,333 But we weren't not interested in it anymore. 393 00:23:30,333 --> 00:23:34,433 We just failed and we kept growing in the cycling and 394 00:23:34,494 --> 00:23:36,167 running and triathlon markets. 395 00:23:36,167 --> 00:23:41,237 But a few years later I hired somebody who was extraordinarily 396 00:23:41,237 --> 00:23:46,573 passionate about golf and he took the product to the caddies 397 00:23:46,913 --> 00:23:49,705 and the caddies all fell in love with the product and the 398 00:23:49,725 --> 00:23:52,356 caddies influenced the pros and the pros all. 399 00:23:52,356 --> 00:23:55,949 Next thing, you know, we've got a 70 market share in the pga 400 00:23:55,989 --> 00:24:00,439 tour, 100 gorilla, 100 successful. 401 00:24:00,439 --> 00:24:05,068 Now we're selling swiftwick socks in most major golf. 402 00:24:05,068 --> 00:24:09,961 Um, you know a lot of of the major golf shops in in great 403 00:24:10,102 --> 00:24:14,854 courses nationwide and the lesson there was it's exactly 404 00:24:14,975 --> 00:24:15,757 the same sock. 405 00:24:15,757 --> 00:24:18,173 It was introduced in a different way. 406 00:24:18,173 --> 00:24:22,395 It got traction because it outperforms any other sock. 407 00:24:23,888 --> 00:24:24,932 But the nugget. 408 00:24:24,932 --> 00:24:28,485 The moment is when Adam Smith won the Masters. 409 00:24:28,485 --> 00:24:33,184 And he's standing on the green and he raises his knee and his 410 00:24:33,245 --> 00:24:36,508 hand's in the air and he's got one leg out and one leg in front 411 00:24:36,508 --> 00:24:36,728 of him. 412 00:24:36,728 --> 00:24:38,570 And he's just on the green and he raises his knee and his hands 413 00:24:38,570 --> 00:24:41,071 in the air and he's got one leg out and one leg in front of him 414 00:24:41,071 --> 00:24:42,773 and he's just going yeah, and you can see it on the cover, and 415 00:24:42,773 --> 00:24:44,955 that lifted his pant leg and exposed the Swiftwick logo. 416 00:24:44,955 --> 00:24:46,596 That was the breakthrough moment. 417 00:24:46,596 --> 00:24:50,538 And the other breakthrough moment for us was with Camila 418 00:24:50,558 --> 00:24:53,882 Villegas, who used to do the spider pose and he'd get down 419 00:24:53,961 --> 00:24:55,003 and read the grass. 420 00:24:55,003 --> 00:25:02,286 Remember that Vaguely. 421 00:25:02,286 --> 00:25:03,548 Camilla is really the pro who introduced Swiftwick because 422 00:25:03,568 --> 00:25:05,994 he's so fitness oriented, one of the early fitness oriented 423 00:25:06,034 --> 00:25:09,548 professionals, a cyclist, and so he discovered us from cycling. 424 00:25:09,548 --> 00:25:14,537 He wore our socks and then everybody who would take a 425 00:25:14,596 --> 00:25:16,766 photograph of him trying to read the green. 426 00:25:16,766 --> 00:25:21,755 There was no way except to see the Swiftwick logo right beneath 427 00:25:21,755 --> 00:25:23,077 his line of sight. 428 00:25:23,077 --> 00:25:23,619 Sternum yeah. 429 00:25:24,345 --> 00:25:31,034 And plus, I think he had the most amazing gallery of females 430 00:25:31,275 --> 00:25:33,277 following him on the whole planet. 431 00:25:33,277 --> 00:25:38,190 So maybe they all bought them for their um, their their gift 432 00:25:38,611 --> 00:25:39,491 items for Christmas. 433 00:25:39,491 --> 00:25:43,365 But we, you know, between Camillo and Adam Scott and a few 434 00:25:43,365 --> 00:25:48,557 people who were and won, uh, we , we got significant traction in 435 00:25:48,557 --> 00:25:49,099 in golf. 436 00:25:49,525 --> 00:25:52,527 Speaker 1: Well, and I swear by them, I, I wear them golfing too 437 00:25:52,527 --> 00:25:52,527 . 438 00:25:52,527 --> 00:25:54,828 This is not turning into a promo episode, but if you're 439 00:25:54,849 --> 00:25:57,671 listening, go check it out, because they are absolutely 440 00:25:57,711 --> 00:25:58,092 legit. 441 00:25:58,092 --> 00:26:00,874 When you first told me about them, I didn't tell you, but I 442 00:26:00,933 --> 00:26:04,176 actually went out and bought a pair within a week and it was 443 00:26:04,217 --> 00:26:06,919 part of my vetting of you. 444 00:26:06,919 --> 00:26:09,801 I was like Mark says these are the best socks in the world and 445 00:26:09,881 --> 00:26:11,682 I'm going to test them out and see if they are. 446 00:26:11,682 --> 00:26:14,385 And if they aren't, then Mark might not be. 447 00:26:14,385 --> 00:26:16,331 You know who he says he is. 448 00:26:16,331 --> 00:26:18,697 And I was like dang, these are really good socks. 449 00:26:19,605 --> 00:26:22,292 Speaker 2: Dang Well, you know, I think it's just a lesson, 450 00:26:22,352 --> 00:26:22,613 right? 451 00:26:22,613 --> 00:26:25,851 So you try things that don't work the first time that doesn't 452 00:26:25,851 --> 00:26:26,934 mean you don't try them again. 453 00:26:26,934 --> 00:26:30,488 And I entered the sock business knowing absolutely nothing 454 00:26:30,807 --> 00:26:35,959 about textiles and became an expert over a seven-year period 455 00:26:36,884 --> 00:26:40,934 and I'm speaking at conferences and I'm the little brand that 456 00:26:40,975 --> 00:26:43,080 could and we can. 457 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,411 And we kept trying things and sometimes we would try them with 458 00:26:47,411 --> 00:26:48,474 different recipe. 459 00:26:48,474 --> 00:26:50,206 It would taste better the next time. 460 00:26:50,206 --> 00:26:52,833 I think that's important in logistics. 461 00:26:52,833 --> 00:26:54,057 It's important in business. 462 00:26:54,057 --> 00:26:57,431 We don't have to be experts in the business. 463 00:26:57,431 --> 00:27:04,808 Sometimes our absolute naivete is a competitive weapon because 464 00:27:04,889 --> 00:27:07,135 we don't know what we can't do. 465 00:27:07,135 --> 00:27:12,650 So we don't enter any of these decision-making situations with 466 00:27:13,030 --> 00:27:16,206 preconceived notions based on 30 years of working in the 467 00:27:16,246 --> 00:27:17,728 industry about what doesn't work . 468 00:27:18,129 --> 00:27:24,580 Speaker 1: Yes, you also seem to have a very candid and 469 00:27:24,705 --> 00:27:26,451 straightforward way of talking about failure. 470 00:27:26,451 --> 00:27:30,787 Most of the time, failure is something to be rejected or 471 00:27:31,028 --> 00:27:36,722 masked or not talked about, and yet you simply you said we tried 472 00:27:36,722 --> 00:27:40,772 and we failed, and there was no , it wasn't loaded. 473 00:27:40,772 --> 00:27:43,597 You just owned it and then moved on to the next thing. 474 00:27:43,597 --> 00:27:48,835 I've learned that lesson, and I think there is something to be 475 00:27:48,914 --> 00:27:50,076 said for that of. 476 00:27:50,076 --> 00:27:51,866 Sometimes it's just time to let it go. 477 00:27:51,866 --> 00:27:52,649 It's not. 478 00:27:53,853 --> 00:27:58,490 Not every idea needs to be a lifetime commitment, Not every 479 00:27:58,571 --> 00:27:59,072 business. 480 00:27:59,072 --> 00:28:02,198 Sometimes businesses are for seasons. 481 00:28:02,198 --> 00:28:05,952 They they work for two years or they work for eight years, and 482 00:28:05,972 --> 00:28:09,129 then it's time to move on to the next thing, Not because it is 483 00:28:09,190 --> 00:28:12,076 or isn't financially successful, but because it's not the right 484 00:28:12,116 --> 00:28:13,647 thing for you anymore. 485 00:28:13,647 --> 00:28:16,171 So do you have your own framework then? 486 00:28:16,171 --> 00:28:19,236 For because you could have you have a hundred ideas a week, but 487 00:28:19,236 --> 00:28:20,979 you've only got 24 hours a day. 488 00:28:20,979 --> 00:28:28,036 So how do you filter in and filter out beyond just the 489 00:28:28,538 --> 00:28:30,787 financial viability of a business and beyond? 490 00:28:30,787 --> 00:28:33,855 I like how you framed up Swiftwick. 491 00:28:33,855 --> 00:28:39,067 It met these five criteria of what I wanted to do next, but 492 00:28:39,107 --> 00:28:42,633 there has to be something else to it. 493 00:28:42,633 --> 00:28:48,506 Also, you got two brilliant ideas that are equal. 494 00:28:48,506 --> 00:28:49,407 How do you choose? 495 00:28:51,871 --> 00:28:54,275 Speaker 2: I think the first thing is to approach that 496 00:28:54,375 --> 00:28:57,080 question with the attitude of a parent. 497 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:05,382 I have two brilliant daughters I do not have to choose and one 498 00:29:05,422 --> 00:29:08,412 of them became a global supply chain's logistics expert and 499 00:29:08,451 --> 00:29:11,564 grew up in some of my businesses and is a superstar, and the 500 00:29:11,605 --> 00:29:14,495 other one became a doctor and they'd make their own choices. 501 00:29:14,495 --> 00:29:20,048 Businesses grow up, just like kids do, and we have to change 502 00:29:20,087 --> 00:29:25,278 our management style from the baby to the toddler to the first 503 00:29:25,278 --> 00:29:26,870 grader Terrible twos, right. 504 00:29:26,870 --> 00:29:32,093 It's constantly challenging us as parents to manage ourselves 505 00:29:32,834 --> 00:29:34,957 and set the environment for success. 506 00:29:34,957 --> 00:29:40,174 So that's my first secret is that I love all my companies, 507 00:29:40,556 --> 00:29:41,818 just like I love my children. 508 00:29:41,818 --> 00:29:45,307 Some of them have greater opportunities than others or 509 00:29:45,347 --> 00:29:49,177 maybe more natural skill sets that can be expressed, and some 510 00:29:49,197 --> 00:29:49,806 of them have. 511 00:29:49,806 --> 00:29:54,873 I think we all as parents, we see this kid has a lot of 512 00:29:54,913 --> 00:29:57,817 potential and is just not interested in achieving it for 513 00:29:57,856 --> 00:29:58,357 some reason. 514 00:29:58,458 --> 00:29:59,219 I don't know what that is. 515 00:29:59,219 --> 00:30:00,201 Maybe that's a season. 516 00:30:00,201 --> 00:30:04,753 Sometimes, you know, you add on the dynamics of marketplaces 517 00:30:05,094 --> 00:30:08,381 and markets give you signals about what's working, what's not 518 00:30:08,381 --> 00:30:08,721 working. 519 00:30:08,721 --> 00:30:13,995 Okay, I have a flaw related to failure, and that is I don't 520 00:30:14,055 --> 00:30:14,517 want to fail. 521 00:30:14,517 --> 00:30:20,277 I may be afraid of failure, and so it drives me harder. 522 00:30:20,277 --> 00:30:27,488 But failure is so informative and so important and in fact, in 523 00:30:27,488 --> 00:30:32,149 my view, failure we are failing all the time, like 100% of the 524 00:30:32,209 --> 00:30:35,777 time everything that I'm doing is a failure compared to 525 00:30:35,836 --> 00:30:36,198 something. 526 00:30:36,198 --> 00:30:42,173 So I just stopped comparing and start to enjoy whatever 527 00:30:42,235 --> 00:30:47,270 progress we made as a success, even if it felt like a failure 528 00:30:47,351 --> 00:31:01,507 because my expectations were too high, I think. 529 00:31:01,507 --> 00:31:04,822 Thirdly, I tried not in my more advanced age I try to settle 530 00:31:04,842 --> 00:31:05,345 expectations down. 531 00:31:05,345 --> 00:31:11,150 I think you know if a company has goals the team's not bought 532 00:31:11,330 --> 00:31:15,898 into, then the vision, values and culture and why we're doing 533 00:31:15,938 --> 00:31:19,393 what we're doing, then it doesn't matter how good 534 00:31:19,713 --> 00:31:23,625 executive leadership is, you're not going to achieve the way you 535 00:31:23,625 --> 00:31:24,227 expect to. 536 00:31:24,227 --> 00:31:32,558 So expectations are premeditated resentment and it's 537 00:31:32,558 --> 00:31:36,094 important to start every meeting with a little victory. 538 00:31:36,094 --> 00:31:38,684 All right, everybody, let's talk about our little victories. 539 00:31:38,684 --> 00:31:41,693 Like you can't come to one of my meetings without having a 540 00:31:41,734 --> 00:31:44,730 little victory, and I don't care what it is, but everybody 541 00:31:44,811 --> 00:31:48,549 starts reporting out some random whatever they consider to be a 542 00:31:48,590 --> 00:31:49,072 little victory. 543 00:31:49,072 --> 00:31:53,993 And you can't have progress without some setbacks, because 544 00:31:54,013 --> 00:31:57,950 you learn in that time what to do and sometimes you learn what 545 00:31:57,990 --> 00:31:58,412 not to do. 546 00:31:59,585 --> 00:32:02,009 And my grandfather taught me. 547 00:32:02,009 --> 00:32:06,557 He said, mark, if you want to be successful, you got to learn 548 00:32:06,636 --> 00:32:08,180 from the mistakes of the other guy. 549 00:32:08,180 --> 00:32:13,351 They're the least expensive kind and I just have had that 550 00:32:13,932 --> 00:32:15,517 drilled into my head all my life . 551 00:32:15,517 --> 00:32:20,513 You know, I observe and listen and watch for what's a mistake. 552 00:32:20,513 --> 00:32:23,747 Now does that mean that that move by that business was the 553 00:32:23,807 --> 00:32:25,554 right move or the wrong move at that time? 554 00:32:25,554 --> 00:32:26,629 Was it really a mistake? 555 00:32:26,629 --> 00:32:30,312 Or what can I learn from that and relatively adjust my 556 00:32:30,372 --> 00:32:31,916 approach to problem solving? 557 00:32:33,286 --> 00:32:36,153 And failure is just such a charged word. 558 00:32:36,153 --> 00:32:40,112 I had a hat literally I have a baseball hat with the word 559 00:32:40,253 --> 00:32:46,431 failure across the top and it made me uncomfortable wearing it 560 00:32:46,431 --> 00:32:46,431 . 561 00:32:46,431 --> 00:32:50,077 Test yourself, do something like that. 562 00:32:50,077 --> 00:32:52,468 You know how can you embrace failure? 563 00:32:52,468 --> 00:32:57,876 Because we're all some flawed example of humanity running 564 00:32:57,917 --> 00:32:59,680 around looking for a place to be loved. 565 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,368 You know that's all a company is doing, that's all customers 566 00:33:02,428 --> 00:33:04,173 are doing, that's all we're doing. 567 00:33:04,173 --> 00:33:08,070 So let's set the weather right, let's set the environment. 568 00:33:08,070 --> 00:33:13,372 As leaders, let's be creative and try new things and see if we 569 00:33:13,372 --> 00:33:17,680 can hatch a new idea and give it some legs, and just listen. 570 00:33:19,226 --> 00:33:22,634 Speaker 1: Have you thought about codifying your philosophy 571 00:33:22,715 --> 00:33:23,477 on a lot of these things? 572 00:33:23,477 --> 00:33:24,891 You've had mentors in your life . 573 00:33:24,891 --> 00:33:29,813 You've had business partners, friends, advisors that have, I'm 574 00:33:29,813 --> 00:33:35,323 sure, shaped much of your view on things and your ability to 575 00:33:35,503 --> 00:33:40,490 clearly articulate and communicate. 576 00:33:40,490 --> 00:33:42,995 That vision is contagious. 577 00:33:42,995 --> 00:33:46,486 It's part of why, you know, when you and I first met, I got 578 00:33:46,506 --> 00:33:47,671 to spend more time with this guy . 579 00:33:47,671 --> 00:33:52,626 You've got high energy, you've got really clear perspectives on 580 00:33:52,626 --> 00:33:56,596 what you know, think and believe and you follow through. 581 00:33:56,596 --> 00:33:59,109 Have you ever thought about writing a book? 582 00:34:01,134 --> 00:34:04,533 Speaker 2: Yeah, when I was at Swiftwick, I started writing a 583 00:34:04,593 --> 00:34:09,449 book called Do what Moves you, and I interviewed Bill Walton 584 00:34:09,529 --> 00:34:15,299 and Justin Wilson, the Indy 500 race car driver. 585 00:34:15,299 --> 00:34:18,153 Unfortunately, both of them have passed since then. 586 00:34:18,153 --> 00:34:20,871 I interviewed Camila Villegas. 587 00:34:20,871 --> 00:34:24,773 I had a plan, I started writing that book and then I got 588 00:34:24,913 --> 00:34:25,615 fearful of it. 589 00:34:25,615 --> 00:34:29,373 So I think that's once you go back to failure. 590 00:34:29,373 --> 00:34:33,811 It touches fear somewhere, and courage feels a lot like fear 591 00:34:34,092 --> 00:34:34,795 when you're in it. 592 00:34:34,795 --> 00:34:41,447 Fear somewhere and courage feels a lot like fear when 593 00:34:41,468 --> 00:34:41,708 you're in it. 594 00:34:41,708 --> 00:34:42,891 And I talked myself out of writing that book because I 595 00:34:42,911 --> 00:34:44,173 thought who wants to hear my story? 596 00:34:44,173 --> 00:34:45,817 Or who? 597 00:34:45,817 --> 00:34:47,741 How ego would I be? 598 00:34:47,741 --> 00:34:50,449 What kind of ego is driving me to write a book? 599 00:34:50,449 --> 00:34:52,352 And these are self-talk. 600 00:34:52,352 --> 00:34:55,036 This is self-talk that I have tried to learn to manage. 601 00:34:56,097 --> 00:35:00,952 So in 2024, january of 2024, I set a goal I want to do one 602 00:35:00,992 --> 00:35:05,791 thing every day that scares me, and I started looking for things 603 00:35:05,791 --> 00:35:07,277 that I was uncomfortable with. 604 00:35:07,277 --> 00:35:13,112 And when you're uncomfortable, you are at the edge of your 605 00:35:13,253 --> 00:35:15,737 known universe or you wouldn't be uncomfortable. 606 00:35:15,737 --> 00:35:20,633 These are signals that are saying I'm exploring, I'm not 607 00:35:20,693 --> 00:35:22,017 prepared for this, or am I? 608 00:35:22,017 --> 00:35:23,311 I'm scared, I have a fear. 609 00:35:23,311 --> 00:35:28,628 All these signals teach me where my boundaries are, so I'm 610 00:35:28,849 --> 00:35:30,394 comfortable right behind. 611 00:35:30,394 --> 00:35:32,693 I can get there to the edge of my boundary really easy 612 00:35:33,425 --> 00:35:33,847 Landscape. 613 00:35:33,847 --> 00:35:35,532 I know I'm gonna to go right up to the edge. 614 00:35:35,532 --> 00:35:40,931 Well, I'm starting to test all my boundaries and one of those 615 00:35:40,990 --> 00:35:44,771 things was I stopped writing a book that I've been encouraged 616 00:35:44,811 --> 00:35:46,947 to write, that I have. 617 00:35:46,947 --> 00:35:52,393 It would be a gift to do it and a challenge at the same time, 618 00:35:52,485 --> 00:35:55,465 and I've never written a book successfully or released it, so 619 00:35:55,485 --> 00:35:56,568 I'm uncomfortable with that. 620 00:35:56,568 --> 00:35:59,536 Well then, gosh, darn it, I'm going to do it. 621 00:35:59,735 --> 00:36:03,434 You know, I'm in the about halfway through writing a book 622 00:36:03,474 --> 00:36:04,458 called um. 623 00:36:04,458 --> 00:36:07,771 It's basically about parallel entrepreneurship, about the art 624 00:36:07,851 --> 00:36:11,023 of paralleling and what are the superpowers that you can 625 00:36:11,063 --> 00:36:12,027 leverage and what? 626 00:36:12,027 --> 00:36:15,896 How do you find synergies across businesses, across 627 00:36:15,976 --> 00:36:17,746 organizations, across markets? 628 00:36:17,746 --> 00:36:20,351 Why do I not own 10 companies? 629 00:36:20,351 --> 00:36:22,094 Why shouldn't I? 630 00:36:22,094 --> 00:36:26,874 There's a lot of public speak and self-talk about why people 631 00:36:26,934 --> 00:36:29,346 shouldn't be doing those things and, as a matter of fact, most 632 00:36:29,405 --> 00:36:33,195 of the business books out there will tell your listener focus, 633 00:36:33,215 --> 00:36:33,936 focus, focus. 634 00:36:33,936 --> 00:36:38,532 You know, and that's great for an employee, that might not be 635 00:36:38,572 --> 00:36:39,697 great for the entrepreneur. 636 00:36:39,697 --> 00:36:43,809 That might not be enough creativity and enough insight 637 00:36:43,889 --> 00:36:46,735 that they can pull from multiple different places. 638 00:36:46,735 --> 00:36:48,499 So, yes, I'm writing a book. 639 00:36:48,499 --> 00:36:58,195 I'm anxious to see how well I draw the stories of people who 640 00:36:58,295 --> 00:37:01,639 are parallel entrepreneurs and whom I admire and who have 641 00:37:01,679 --> 00:37:03,260 coached me and taught me along the way. 642 00:37:03,260 --> 00:37:08,634 I'm eager to find out how well I can tell their stories and 643 00:37:09,054 --> 00:37:11,239 weave that in with my own lived experience. 644 00:37:12,385 --> 00:37:14,612 Speaker 1: Let's unpack the term parallel entrepreneur for just 645 00:37:14,653 --> 00:37:17,387 a second too, because it's different than a serial 646 00:37:17,427 --> 00:37:18,269 entrepreneur, isn't it? 647 00:37:19,913 --> 00:37:23,925 Speaker 2: I think that as we study this issue, there's been 648 00:37:23,965 --> 00:37:28,731 some studies about multi-preneurship or it's called 649 00:37:28,731 --> 00:37:32,816 different things, including including portfolio entrepreneur 650 00:37:32,816 --> 00:37:32,816 . 651 00:37:32,816 --> 00:37:37,121 It looks like a private equity model. 652 00:37:37,121 --> 00:37:42,110 It is, in fact, typically and one of my you asked me a 653 00:37:42,150 --> 00:37:43,831 question how do I decide to move forward? 654 00:37:43,831 --> 00:37:47,427 Well, I want to know if I can build an organization around 655 00:37:47,467 --> 00:37:47,931 this idea. 656 00:37:47,931 --> 00:37:49,405 Can I build an organization? 657 00:37:49,405 --> 00:37:51,392 Because if I can, I can get that going. 658 00:37:51,392 --> 00:37:52,235 Then it can grow. 659 00:37:52,235 --> 00:37:56,807 It's like the seed that creates the child, that creates the 660 00:37:57,008 --> 00:37:59,856 adolescent, that creates the adult business. 661 00:37:59,856 --> 00:38:03,896 Can you create an organization around this concept? 662 00:38:03,896 --> 00:38:05,130 What does the market look like? 663 00:38:05,130 --> 00:38:11,965 And if you do that once, why can't you do it twice? 664 00:38:11,965 --> 00:38:13,431 So a lot of people will do it once. 665 00:38:13,431 --> 00:38:16,514 They'll pour all their energy into it, they'll invest their 666 00:38:16,595 --> 00:38:19,264 identity in it to the point where they can't even separate 667 00:38:19,385 --> 00:38:22,271 their identity from the business and it becomes more difficult 668 00:38:22,311 --> 00:38:23,052 to be objective. 669 00:38:24,556 --> 00:38:28,070 And if you start a second one, you've got another company at a 670 00:38:28,130 --> 00:38:29,833 different state of being. 671 00:38:29,833 --> 00:38:31,657 It's your, you know. 672 00:38:31,657 --> 00:38:34,413 You got a four-year-old child and a brand new baby, a 673 00:38:34,534 --> 00:38:35,235 different state. 674 00:38:35,235 --> 00:38:40,668 So it forces you to be better at all those things and it's 675 00:38:40,688 --> 00:38:41,392 also joyful. 676 00:38:41,392 --> 00:38:47,416 So parallel entrepreneurship to me is first aligning who you 677 00:38:47,597 --> 00:38:47,697 are. 678 00:38:47,697 --> 00:38:50,693 If you're an accountant, and you're a good accountant and it 679 00:38:50,733 --> 00:38:54,249 makes you happy, then be an accountant and track numbers and 680 00:38:54,249 --> 00:38:55,512 do things really well, like that. 681 00:38:55,512 --> 00:38:58,918 If you're an entrepreneur, go start something, create 682 00:38:58,958 --> 00:39:03,929 something, build something and then when you sell that company 683 00:39:03,950 --> 00:39:05,796 you'll start at another one because you're good at it. 684 00:39:05,796 --> 00:39:08,112 Now you're a serial entrepreneur and that's pretty 685 00:39:08,213 --> 00:39:09,217 obvious and for me. 686 00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:13,228 I know most of my friends call themselves serial entrepreneurs 687 00:39:13,588 --> 00:39:17,715 but when you dig deeper, no, they're actually parallel 688 00:39:17,836 --> 00:39:18,416 entrepreneurs. 689 00:39:18,416 --> 00:39:24,849 They're paralleling, and paralleling is living and being 690 00:39:25,409 --> 00:39:30,615 your aligned self, who you are, and matching up what you do 691 00:39:30,876 --> 00:39:35,822 outside yourself, in your world, with alignment. 692 00:39:35,822 --> 00:39:40,389 And I can run three companies that are aligned with my 693 00:39:40,751 --> 00:39:44,450 identity and with my skill sets and then I can go hire the who, 694 00:39:45,313 --> 00:39:45,855 not the how. 695 00:39:45,855 --> 00:39:48,409 I can hire the who, that can go , do all the things that those 696 00:39:48,451 --> 00:39:50,771 businesses require that make them unique and special. 697 00:39:50,771 --> 00:39:56,896 And I can parachute in and contribute in my superpowers in 698 00:39:56,956 --> 00:40:00,849 business A and then withdraw, which is a signal of trust. 699 00:40:00,849 --> 00:40:06,525 And I can go pay attention to business B and deal with its 700 00:40:06,865 --> 00:40:09,532 unique moments, with my superpowers, whatever they are, 701 00:40:10,253 --> 00:40:12,865 and encourage other people to do the same. 702 00:40:13,487 --> 00:40:16,715 And I think parallel entrepreneurship the younger you 703 00:40:16,715 --> 00:40:19,914 are, the more likely you are to be a parallel entrepreneur. 704 00:40:19,914 --> 00:40:27,684 The reality is, I'm executing a market research project, an 705 00:40:27,786 --> 00:40:31,302 actual academic research project , to take some old research on 706 00:40:31,322 --> 00:40:35,057 this topic that might have left some unanswered questions, to 707 00:40:35,077 --> 00:40:39,429 try to extend and figure out what does that look like in 2025 708 00:40:39,429 --> 00:40:39,971 now? 709 00:40:39,971 --> 00:40:44,847 And to try to characterize and and document for the purposes of 710 00:40:44,847 --> 00:40:50,820 the book um and some formal research about how is parallel 711 00:40:50,981 --> 00:40:55,775 entrepreneurship actually better than or at least correct for me 712 00:40:55,775 --> 00:40:55,775 ? 713 00:40:55,775 --> 00:41:01,650 But it's an identity that is not well understood and yet it 714 00:41:01,771 --> 00:41:03,494 exists everywhere you look. 715 00:41:04,735 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: I can't find a flaw in that. 716 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,492 I also want to add to it as a business model. 717 00:41:10,492 --> 00:41:13,318 It exists under different names already too. 718 00:41:13,318 --> 00:41:15,171 We might call it vertical integration. 719 00:41:15,171 --> 00:41:24,106 There might be a conglomerate of we make tires, so we need to 720 00:41:24,128 --> 00:41:25,470 have a rubber tree plant or a rubber plant farm. 721 00:41:25,470 --> 00:41:26,711 I'm sorry and okay now that we've got the farm. 722 00:41:26,711 --> 00:41:31,146 Now we need transportation and fertilizer. 723 00:41:31,146 --> 00:41:33,730 So let's start a private fleet company and let's start a 724 00:41:33,769 --> 00:41:34,650 fertilizer company. 725 00:41:34,650 --> 00:41:38,177 And when an entity does that, we just call it vertical 726 00:41:38,197 --> 00:41:39,378 integration or something else. 727 00:41:39,378 --> 00:41:39,760 And fertilizer. 728 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:40,921 So let's start a private fleet company and let's start a 729 00:41:40,941 --> 00:41:42,202 fertilizer company, and when an entity does that, we just call 730 00:41:42,222 --> 00:41:43,144 it vertical integration or something else. 731 00:41:47,804 --> 00:41:48,547 I think the term is kiruetsu. 732 00:41:48,547 --> 00:41:49,809 It's a Japanese term where roughly the same idea. 733 00:41:49,809 --> 00:41:50,992 The Sumitomo company is a good example of this. 734 00:41:50,992 --> 00:41:54,298 The Sumitomo family, hundreds and hundreds of years ago, 735 00:41:54,568 --> 00:41:57,208 started all these adjacent businesses to support their 736 00:41:57,289 --> 00:42:00,536 other business and then eventually the Japanese 737 00:42:00,577 --> 00:42:03,030 government had to intervene because there was like six 738 00:42:03,070 --> 00:42:05,155 families running every industry in the country. 739 00:42:05,155 --> 00:42:08,992 And so when we think of it from the industry lens, everybody 740 00:42:09,052 --> 00:42:10,885 can get on board with it and say that's cool. 741 00:42:10,885 --> 00:42:13,510 It makes a ton of financial sense's good for the customer, 742 00:42:13,570 --> 00:42:17,416 it's good for the entity, but then when a person tries to do 743 00:42:17,476 --> 00:42:39,217 that and build their own entity or entities around, themselves 744 00:42:39,258 --> 00:42:43,800 it's somehow frowned upon, but the individual's pursuit of 745 00:42:43,882 --> 00:42:48,907 parallel entrepreneurship, it is countercultural. 746 00:42:48,947 --> 00:42:49,588 Yeah, for sure. 747 00:42:50,090 --> 00:42:51,152 Speaker 2: I think so, and we also. 748 00:42:51,152 --> 00:42:55,820 I've done a hundred interviews of parallel entrepreneurs and 749 00:42:56,646 --> 00:43:02,496 pushed through to discover how many of them are diagnosed with 750 00:43:02,735 --> 00:43:05,965 ADD or ADHD whatever the term might be today. 751 00:43:05,965 --> 00:43:06,768 That's appropriate. 752 00:43:06,768 --> 00:43:11,036 But, yeah, self-diagnosed sort of. 753 00:43:11,036 --> 00:43:15,581 Maybe I've got ADD, but some of them absolutely do have. 754 00:43:15,581 --> 00:43:16,724 We're going to look into that. 755 00:43:16,724 --> 00:43:20,871 We're also going to look into whether you see dyslexia and 756 00:43:21,133 --> 00:43:28,251 other types of what society might suggest contributes to you 757 00:43:28,251 --> 00:43:30,516 being unemployable for some reason. 758 00:43:30,516 --> 00:43:33,249 So therefore, you become an entrepreneur, which is another 759 00:43:33,309 --> 00:43:33,610 myth. 760 00:43:42,284 --> 00:43:46,652 But I think there is some truth to overcoming challenges as a 761 00:43:46,672 --> 00:43:50,657 natural way of being, that an entrepreneur just is and it's 762 00:43:50,717 --> 00:43:52,200 expressing itself in business. 763 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:57,335 And I'm concerned about this ADD thing because I was 764 00:43:57,375 --> 00:43:58,298 defensive about that. 765 00:43:58,298 --> 00:44:01,369 I had three, four companies at the same time and people, how do 766 00:44:01,369 --> 00:44:01,851 you do that? 767 00:44:01,851 --> 00:44:05,826 You must have ADD, and I'd be like, well, what would happen if 768 00:44:05,826 --> 00:44:09,287 I was just enjoying myself and I don't have to have a medical 769 00:44:09,327 --> 00:44:09,787 condition? 770 00:44:09,787 --> 00:44:19,751 So I think businesses are biologies and there are examples 771 00:44:19,751 --> 00:44:25,373 in nature of everything that a business is and should be Born, 772 00:44:26,153 --> 00:44:35,496 growing, maturing, spinning off spring, aging and dying and 773 00:44:35,557 --> 00:44:37,978 being consumed by the forest. 774 00:44:37,978 --> 00:44:45,240 Companies have to be healthy and it's okay to be a small fish 775 00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:51,282 and swim in a school, and it's okay to be a large fish. 776 00:44:51,282 --> 00:44:59,588 And wherever your company finally gets, and however your 777 00:44:59,608 --> 00:45:02,778 management style allows you to be successful, you're either a 778 00:45:02,818 --> 00:45:05,905 big fish or a little fish, or a giant fish, or you're the whale 779 00:45:05,965 --> 00:45:06,286 hunter. 780 00:45:06,286 --> 00:45:12,157 You know Every business has its place in a biological 781 00:45:12,237 --> 00:45:16,416 comparison and biologies out here are very complex ecosystems 782 00:45:16,416 --> 00:45:16,416 . 783 00:45:17,306 --> 00:45:21,588 The only thing that I have a problem with these days is, you 784 00:45:21,628 --> 00:45:24,530 know your listeners will remember when a monopoly was a 785 00:45:24,570 --> 00:45:30,413 bad thing and there was monopoly busters and your example in 786 00:45:30,432 --> 00:45:35,248 Japan, our example of Standard Oil and AT&T, the bell companies 787 00:45:35,248 --> 00:45:36,072 here in the United States. 788 00:45:36,826 --> 00:45:42,416 There's a point where dominance by one humanity is that example. 789 00:45:42,476 --> 00:45:45,829 We're dominating the planet so much that we kill competition 790 00:45:45,869 --> 00:45:50,485 and kill out ecosystems and we are mishandling the gift of this 791 00:45:50,485 --> 00:45:55,054 earth that we were given to have some form of management 792 00:45:55,135 --> 00:45:56,318 responsibility for. 793 00:45:56,318 --> 00:46:02,592 Perhaps and there is a the modern problem is a duopoly and 794 00:46:02,994 --> 00:46:07,586 duopolies, or maybe triopolies, where they all have some form of 795 00:46:07,586 --> 00:46:10,653 mutual interest in killing off innovation. 796 00:46:10,653 --> 00:46:19,105 They are the modern monopoly innovation. 797 00:46:19,105 --> 00:46:20,427 They are the modern monopoly, and I think it's up to the 798 00:46:20,447 --> 00:46:21,891 entrepreneur and to political leaders and to coaches and 799 00:46:21,911 --> 00:46:25,336 people out there trying to help each other, be successful, to 800 00:46:25,458 --> 00:46:29,471 just stay the course and be competitive and take a little 801 00:46:29,510 --> 00:46:34,126 chunk out of that beast every time you can and build companies 802 00:46:34,126 --> 00:46:37,367 that sport, car around those big brands and take little parts 803 00:46:37,367 --> 00:46:39,894 out of their flesh because you can, because they're not paying 804 00:46:39,914 --> 00:46:43,351 attention and that's yeah, I'm a piranha. 805 00:46:43,351 --> 00:46:46,157 I'm going to go out there and take a chunk out of Nike's 806 00:46:46,566 --> 00:46:49,552 manufacturing or I'm going to take a chunk out of some big 807 00:46:49,612 --> 00:46:55,331 logistics company's business and start some form of a freight 808 00:46:55,771 --> 00:46:59,539 company and be successful and have fun doing it. 809 00:47:01,141 --> 00:47:05,043 Speaker 1: What a pleasant way to go through your day and to go 810 00:47:05,043 --> 00:47:05,684 through your life. 811 00:47:05,684 --> 00:47:08,806 You've also got the advantage of age. 812 00:47:08,806 --> 00:47:11,887 You have actually seen a lot of time around a lot of people. 813 00:47:11,887 --> 00:47:27,101 You see how humans behave in large numbers and you can begin 814 00:47:27,142 --> 00:47:30,831 to predict what might happen next or what's most likely to 815 00:47:30,871 --> 00:47:36,608 happen next, and I wish that I could fast forward my own 816 00:47:36,668 --> 00:47:41,454 learnings and accumulation of knowledge to reach that point, 817 00:47:41,599 --> 00:47:44,143 and so instead, the best thing I have is to just call you and 818 00:47:44,163 --> 00:47:45,845 say hey, mark, what do you think about this? 819 00:47:45,845 --> 00:47:48,409 Because I don't want to. 820 00:47:48,409 --> 00:47:52,273 My dad would say if I made a bad mistake, he'd say well, you 821 00:47:52,293 --> 00:47:54,215 just paid a tuition fee in the school of life. 822 00:47:54,215 --> 00:48:04,576 Yeah, mistakes and um, and from their wisdom, from those who've 823 00:48:04,576 --> 00:48:07,742 gone before, and so that's part of what you've done today is 824 00:48:07,782 --> 00:48:13,159 you've shared for a lot of our listeners, um, some of those 825 00:48:13,199 --> 00:48:15,503 mistakes, but also, just like, the freedom to be yourself. 826 00:48:16,586 --> 00:48:16,726 Speaker 2: I. 827 00:48:16,726 --> 00:48:18,751 I appreciate that and I would. 828 00:48:18,751 --> 00:48:24,845 I would say yes, and I've learned that again, with pushing 829 00:48:24,845 --> 00:48:30,510 edges and out of your comfort zone, a way to stay young in 830 00:48:30,550 --> 00:48:31,532 your perspective. 831 00:48:31,532 --> 00:48:35,576 I can't control my body but I can hack it as best I can and 832 00:48:35,615 --> 00:48:39,586 try to respect myself, but along the way, a way to stay mentally 833 00:48:39,586 --> 00:48:43,114 young and agile is reverse mentorship. 834 00:48:43,114 --> 00:48:49,128 You find crazy smart young people and they're teaching me 835 00:48:50,119 --> 00:48:55,706 and the old model of a mentor helping somebody who's younger 836 00:48:55,746 --> 00:48:59,345 than them navigate through the politics of a Fortune 500 837 00:48:59,385 --> 00:49:00,329 company and all that. 838 00:49:00,329 --> 00:49:05,421 The reality is reverse mentorship is more valuable and 839 00:49:06,103 --> 00:49:10,063 it keeps me sharp so that when I get a chance to contribute to 840 00:49:10,123 --> 00:49:14,932 somebody's learning experience or maybe they're not listening 841 00:49:14,972 --> 00:49:17,626 and I just get to watch them make the same mistake and now I 842 00:49:17,666 --> 00:49:20,302 got to circle back around with them and talk about integrating 843 00:49:20,403 --> 00:49:21,045 with the lessons. 844 00:49:21,045 --> 00:49:24,762 I wouldn't be able to have that conversation with most young 845 00:49:24,802 --> 00:49:28,527 people if I wasn't listening to them first and trying to pay 846 00:49:28,567 --> 00:49:31,373 attention to they have a perspective about what's hot and 847 00:49:31,373 --> 00:49:35,309 what's emerging and what's not, and what is old and stodgy and 848 00:49:35,329 --> 00:49:36,351 needs to be killed off. 849 00:49:38,441 --> 00:49:42,970 I really believe that younger entrepreneurs are spectacular 850 00:49:43,269 --> 00:49:45,474 resources by themselves. 851 00:49:45,474 --> 00:49:49,329 They need to ask more questions and they need to find great 852 00:49:49,369 --> 00:49:49,871 advisors. 853 00:49:49,871 --> 00:49:51,383 And my dad taught me. 854 00:49:51,383 --> 00:49:54,130 He said if I, you know another one of those. 855 00:49:54,130 --> 00:49:58,492 If you want to be successful, pick your advisors carefully. 856 00:49:58,492 --> 00:50:01,726 And then, mark, listen to them. 857 00:50:01,726 --> 00:50:05,345 Right, because I could pick my advisors. 858 00:50:05,345 --> 00:50:06,168 And now that's great. 859 00:50:06,168 --> 00:50:09,250 You just validated something, because humans want validation. 860 00:50:09,250 --> 00:50:10,840 I'd like to be challenged. 861 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:17,221 I'd like to sort of grab that bread and knead that dough and 862 00:50:17,421 --> 00:50:21,762 make something like a souffle out of it, but I want to do it 863 00:50:21,842 --> 00:50:25,331 with other people and then enjoy the meal. 864 00:50:27,001 --> 00:50:28,364 Speaker 1: That's a great metaphor. 865 00:50:28,384 --> 00:50:31,733 Speaker 2: It makes me hungry Last question. 866 00:50:32,942 --> 00:50:33,784 Speaker 1: It is breakfast time. 867 00:50:33,784 --> 00:50:38,063 Last question, because you spend so much time around other 868 00:50:38,124 --> 00:50:40,768 entrepreneurs and you know, obviously, what I do with the 869 00:50:40,827 --> 00:50:44,454 podcast here, but also with Ballast, this group of supply 870 00:50:44,474 --> 00:50:46,621 chain entrepreneurs that get together and help each other 871 00:50:46,722 --> 00:50:50,692 every month, and this network of folks that want to see each 872 00:50:50,751 --> 00:50:51,173 other win. 873 00:50:51,173 --> 00:50:56,949 As somebody who's gone through multiple startups and exits, 874 00:50:58,171 --> 00:51:02,403 what is a piece of advice that somebody, a founder who wants to 875 00:51:02,403 --> 00:51:06,472 sell their business in two to five years, for example? 876 00:51:06,472 --> 00:51:10,826 What should they be thinking about that they're not as they 877 00:51:13,048 --> 00:51:17,976 begin to plan for optimizing for their own exit? 878 00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:25,067 Speaker 2: I think that the first rule should be pay 879 00:51:25,106 --> 00:51:29,193 attention to your finances and know your books and actually 880 00:51:29,273 --> 00:51:29,835 know your numbers. 881 00:51:29,835 --> 00:51:33,269 That's the heartbeat of, and the blood supply of the business 882 00:51:33,269 --> 00:51:38,311 , so be financially aware. 883 00:51:38,311 --> 00:51:44,307 Second, get on accrual accounting and be an actual 884 00:51:44,347 --> 00:51:47,153 accrual accounting company, no matter what, every single time 885 00:51:47,193 --> 00:51:50,025 you do, because if you don't, when you sell your company 886 00:51:50,046 --> 00:51:52,311 you're going to be transitioning to accrual. 887 00:51:52,311 --> 00:51:57,929 You might as well get busy with it and be accrual, particularly 888 00:51:57,929 --> 00:51:59,813 if you have meaningful revenues . 889 00:52:02,659 --> 00:52:04,342 Speaker 1: And that takes a couple of years to set a 890 00:52:04,382 --> 00:52:04,943 baseline for. 891 00:52:04,943 --> 00:52:09,367 If you're doing cash accounting now, mid-2025, you're going to 892 00:52:09,407 --> 00:52:14,374 want to have all of 2026 under accrual and all of 2027 so you 893 00:52:14,394 --> 00:52:16,677 can show a year-over-year comp using the same method. 894 00:52:16,677 --> 00:52:21,269 That's part of why I asked the question of years in advance. 895 00:52:21,811 --> 00:52:25,568 Speaker 2: Yeah, because otherwise it's a lot of research 896 00:52:25,568 --> 00:52:29,391 and in the M&A process, which I spend most of my time in today, 897 00:52:29,391 --> 00:52:33,831 it's a part of due diligence where deals go to die. 898 00:52:33,831 --> 00:52:40,465 So I think the second piece of advice I actually heard this on 899 00:52:41,005 --> 00:52:43,392 yesterday's Parallel Entrepreneur Network meeting. 900 00:52:43,392 --> 00:52:51,146 One of the members chose a growth strategy A and B and one 901 00:52:51,206 --> 00:52:55,972 of them was got an M&A advisor and we're actively looking for 902 00:52:56,574 --> 00:53:00,208 what is it that we're creating that is valuable to an acquirer? 903 00:53:00,208 --> 00:53:05,742 What is it that we're creating that we could lean into and 904 00:53:05,983 --> 00:53:08,371 shape our message and shape our company? 905 00:53:08,371 --> 00:53:14,509 And that market's a different market that will teach you 906 00:53:14,588 --> 00:53:16,393 something specific about your business. 907 00:53:16,393 --> 00:53:21,271 And then, separately, they pivoted from enterprise to SMBs. 908 00:53:21,271 --> 00:53:24,842 They started at SMB, they went up to enterprise Enterprise 909 00:53:24,882 --> 00:53:28,666 market's tough right now and to maintain their organization 910 00:53:28,686 --> 00:53:31,251 they're going to pivot back down to SMBs where they now have 911 00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,269 much more muscle and much more skill than they had last time. 912 00:53:34,269 --> 00:53:35,211 So they're going to crush it. 913 00:53:35,211 --> 00:53:39,048 Well, that SMB market's going to give you different feedback 914 00:53:39,068 --> 00:53:40,251 than the enterprise market did. 915 00:53:41,161 --> 00:53:43,668 I'm expecting both those strategies will be successful, 916 00:53:44,231 --> 00:53:49,483 but I don't think very many entrepreneurs actually build a 917 00:53:49,543 --> 00:53:55,052 three to five year plan with the correct advice and actually 918 00:53:55,193 --> 00:54:00,387 begin to pursue an exit long, long, long long before they get 919 00:54:00,427 --> 00:54:01,650 frustrated with the business. 920 00:54:01,650 --> 00:54:05,487 They're can't find a father founder transition, kind of an 921 00:54:05,568 --> 00:54:06,671 internal family thing. 922 00:54:06,671 --> 00:54:09,208 They're afraid their kids are going to wreck the business, 923 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:09,985 whatever it is. 924 00:54:09,985 --> 00:54:14,447 Usually that decision to sell comes when the market's pivoted 925 00:54:14,539 --> 00:54:17,760 and you now got to get out, or you don't have enough resources 926 00:54:17,961 --> 00:54:18,945 to go to the next level. 927 00:54:18,945 --> 00:54:22,061 Well, you should know you don't have enough resources to go to 928 00:54:22,081 --> 00:54:24,742 the next level three years before you're actually in that 929 00:54:24,782 --> 00:54:25,383 situation. 930 00:54:25,383 --> 00:54:28,307 So plan for it Brilliant, mark. 931 00:54:28,648 --> 00:54:31,333 Speaker 1: thank you for the wide ranging conversation. 932 00:54:31,333 --> 00:54:34,063 I wish we had more time, because we could do this for a 933 00:54:34,144 --> 00:54:34,967 whole other hour. 934 00:54:34,967 --> 00:54:37,072 We can't, unfortunately, but. 935 00:54:37,501 --> 00:54:38,601 Speaker 2: I enjoyed every second. 936 00:54:39,262 --> 00:54:41,226 Speaker 1: If folks want to connect with you, where can they 937 00:54:41,226 --> 00:54:41,626 find you? 938 00:54:41,626 --> 00:54:42,728 Connect with you where can they find you? 939 00:54:42,749 --> 00:54:45,833 Speaker 2: I'm available at theparallelentrepreneurcom, 940 00:54:57,081 --> 00:54:59,025 markaclevelandcom and I guess LinkedIn is the place where I 941 00:54:59,045 --> 00:55:02,711 spend my most energy communicating and maintaining 942 00:55:02,731 --> 00:55:03,032 conversations. 943 00:55:03,032 --> 00:55:05,697 But I got to tell you before you let me off the hook here. 944 00:55:05,697 --> 00:55:08,327 I want to tell you that one of the greatest experiences I've 945 00:55:08,367 --> 00:55:11,914 had over the last year is being a part of Ballast and watching 946 00:55:11,976 --> 00:55:19,142 and observing mid to small, new and old logistics players, from 947 00:55:19,202 --> 00:55:24,847 software to broker to trucking operations like dig in, roll up 948 00:55:24,887 --> 00:55:28,266 their sleeves and help each other, and it's a completely 949 00:55:28,326 --> 00:55:31,333 astonishing thing to watch at scale like that. 950 00:55:31,333 --> 00:55:34,101 So hats off to you for pulling that off, nate. 951 00:55:34,724 --> 00:55:35,065 Speaker 1: Thank you. 952 00:55:35,065 --> 00:55:39,135 That's my superpower is bringing people together and um 953 00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:42,605 you created the environment disarming them, getting getting 954 00:55:42,644 --> 00:55:44,289 folks to be honest and open up. 955 00:55:44,329 --> 00:55:47,043 And that's part of why I learned that doing this podcast, that 956 00:55:47,065 --> 00:55:48,668 that was one of my superpowers. 957 00:55:48,668 --> 00:55:51,213 When people would say to me afterwards I can't believe, I 958 00:55:51,253 --> 00:55:54,467 told you that I didn't mean to share that and I did. 959 00:55:54,467 --> 00:55:59,606 And that was when I realized I have built a trust vault of 960 00:56:01,729 --> 00:56:05,612 relationship management and doing what I say I was going to 961 00:56:05,653 --> 00:56:05,813 do. 962 00:56:05,813 --> 00:56:10,144 And, yes, sometimes that costs opportunities, but I sleep 963 00:56:10,204 --> 00:56:12,170 really well at night and I get to have lots of friends 964 00:56:12,250 --> 00:56:16,347 everywhere I go and by that definition, I'm very, very 965 00:56:16,407 --> 00:56:17,710 successful and I'm very happy. 966 00:56:17,710 --> 00:56:19,934 So on that note, Mark. 967 00:56:20,963 --> 00:56:22,407 Speaker 2: It shows your higher self. 968 00:56:22,407 --> 00:56:23,711 Looks good on you, nate. 969 00:56:24,159 --> 00:56:26,967 Speaker 1: Ooh, well said, I'm going to put that on a hat. 970 00:56:26,967 --> 00:56:30,923 Thank you, mark, and of course we're always rooting for you. 971 00:56:30,923 --> 00:56:32,367 I appreciate that. 972 00:56:32,367 --> 00:56:34,211 Take care, my friend, you too. 973 00:56:34,211 --> 00:56:38,668 Thanks for listening to another episode of the Bootstrapper's 974 00:56:38,729 --> 00:56:41,300 Guide to Logistics, and a special thank you to our 975 00:56:41,340 --> 00:56:44,325 sponsors and the team behind the scenes who make it all possible 976 00:56:44,325 --> 00:56:44,325 . 977 00:56:44,325 --> 00:56:47,807 Be sure to like, follow or subscribe to the podcast to get 978 00:56:47,827 --> 00:56:48,608 the latest updates. 979 00:56:48,608 --> 00:56:51,673 To learn more about the show and connect with the growing 980 00:56:51,713 --> 00:56:54,796 community of entrepreneurs, visit logisticsfounderscom. 981 00:56:54,796 --> 00:57:03,306 And, of course, thank you to all the founders who trust us to 982 00:57:03,306 --> 00:57:03,706 share their stories.