1 00:00:01,762 --> 00:00:03,766 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Bootstrapper's Guide to 2 00:00:03,806 --> 00:00:06,432 Logistics, the podcast highlighting founders doing it 3 00:00:06,451 --> 00:00:08,134 the way that doesn't get a lot of attention. 4 00:00:08,134 --> 00:00:11,067 We're here to change that by sharing their stories and 5 00:00:11,106 --> 00:00:12,570 inspiring others to take the leap. 6 00:00:12,570 --> 00:00:16,510 It's a roller coaster ride that you might ultimately fail. 7 00:00:16,510 --> 00:00:19,068 That's when I kind of knew I was on to something. 8 00:00:19,068 --> 00:00:20,626 It was very hard. 9 00:00:20,626 --> 00:00:23,047 It truly is building a legacy. 10 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,289 Speaker 2: The more life you live, the more wisdom you have. 11 00:00:26,839 --> 00:00:29,106 Speaker 1: Because we are where we're supposed to be, kind of 12 00:00:29,248 --> 00:00:30,251 answering the call. 13 00:00:30,251 --> 00:00:33,228 Don't shoulder entrepreneurship on your own. 14 00:00:33,228 --> 00:00:35,134 I'm your host, nate Schutz. 15 00:00:35,134 --> 00:00:38,204 Let's build something together from the ground up. 16 00:00:40,911 --> 00:00:43,700 Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Bootstrapper's Guide 17 00:00:43,700 --> 00:00:44,460 to Logistics. 18 00:00:44,460 --> 00:00:48,149 We continue sharing stories of founders and supply chain, like 19 00:00:48,189 --> 00:00:50,954 we have going on almost four years now. 20 00:00:50,954 --> 00:00:53,988 Which is absolutely mind-boggling to me that after 21 00:00:54,029 --> 00:00:57,043 four years there's still interest in the stories of the 22 00:00:57,103 --> 00:01:00,469 people that start the companies, more so than just what the 23 00:01:00,509 --> 00:01:01,609 companies themselves do. 24 00:01:01,609 --> 00:01:10,001 And that's what I think the universal appeal is is we love 25 00:01:10,021 --> 00:01:11,463 seeing people accomplish difficult things in the face of 26 00:01:11,483 --> 00:01:12,887 adversity and overcoming odds and sharing their painful 27 00:01:12,927 --> 00:01:15,352 lessons, often with others, so that they don't have to make the 28 00:01:15,352 --> 00:01:15,960 same mistakes. 29 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:20,188 And it takes a special kind of person to be willing to open up 30 00:01:20,590 --> 00:01:24,346 and share the not so pretty details, because what you see on 31 00:01:24,346 --> 00:01:28,064 social media is usually just the victories, and we intended 32 00:01:28,144 --> 00:01:29,248 to do some of that. 33 00:01:29,308 --> 00:01:32,602 Of course there's a lot of value in that, but there's often more 34 00:01:32,602 --> 00:01:36,852 value in the hardship and the stories that don't see the light 35 00:01:36,852 --> 00:01:39,983 of day, and so I don't know exactly where we're going to end 36 00:01:39,983 --> 00:01:44,569 up on that arc of a story today , but our guest is Mark 37 00:01:44,629 --> 00:01:47,274 Cleveland, who is an executive. 38 00:01:47,274 --> 00:01:49,802 He's been a six-time founder. 39 00:01:49,802 --> 00:01:52,427 He has as an investor. 40 00:01:52,427 --> 00:01:56,120 He now focuses on the M&A space and does a lot of work in the 41 00:01:56,161 --> 00:01:57,063 supply chain arena. 42 00:01:57,063 --> 00:02:02,414 Your resume is too long for me to go any deeper than that, mark 43 00:02:02,414 --> 00:02:02,414 . 44 00:02:02,414 --> 00:02:05,900 Good morning, welcome to the show, and I'm glad we're finally 45 00:02:05,900 --> 00:02:06,924 getting a chance to do this. 46 00:02:07,626 --> 00:02:10,051 Speaker 2: Yeah, we've tried this two or three times. 47 00:02:10,051 --> 00:02:11,741 It's like a third time's the charm. 48 00:02:12,141 --> 00:02:12,522 Speaker 1: It is. 49 00:02:12,522 --> 00:02:18,073 So with a career as rich and storied as yours, can you give 50 00:02:18,152 --> 00:02:22,409 us a fly overview of what you've done in the supply chain 51 00:02:22,449 --> 00:02:25,960 industry first, and then we can shift into your entrepreneurial 52 00:02:26,139 --> 00:02:26,520 pursuits? 53 00:02:27,622 --> 00:02:30,908 Speaker 2: Wow Depends on how far back the helicopter can fly. 54 00:02:30,908 --> 00:02:36,346 I got involved in the transportation industry as a 55 00:02:36,406 --> 00:02:38,290 test, a personal test. 56 00:02:38,290 --> 00:02:43,645 I had started a satellite communications installation and 57 00:02:44,225 --> 00:02:48,901 services business right out of college and a software business. 58 00:02:48,901 --> 00:02:51,026 I ran both of those companies. 59 00:02:51,026 --> 00:02:53,640 An enterprise software development company in the 80s 60 00:02:53,741 --> 00:02:59,568 was kind of avant-garde and satellite TV installations, 61 00:03:00,509 --> 00:03:04,074 satellite master antenna television systems for cable 62 00:03:04,094 --> 00:03:07,980 head ends and, you know, hotels and motels, that kind of thing. 63 00:03:08,622 --> 00:03:16,899 Um, I, I sold both those companies and I decided that, uh 64 00:03:16,899 --> 00:03:20,064 , I'd gotten a lot of feedback as an entrepreneur and an owner 65 00:03:20,205 --> 00:03:24,943 over an eight year period, that, uh, nine years, I, that, I, I, 66 00:03:24,984 --> 00:03:26,368 of course I own the company. 67 00:03:26,368 --> 00:03:29,490 I should be motivated and I should be highly excited about 68 00:03:29,530 --> 00:03:31,266 it and I should be drive, drive, drive. 69 00:03:31,266 --> 00:03:38,623 And you know, maybe I expect too much of other people and I 70 00:03:38,663 --> 00:03:40,348 thought, well, I'm the next. 71 00:03:40,348 --> 00:03:44,074 After I sold my company, I'm going to go to work for the most 72 00:03:44,074 --> 00:03:48,787 boring business I can possibly imagine and test myself and see 73 00:03:48,866 --> 00:03:52,794 if I could be the employee that I always expected everyone else 74 00:03:52,854 --> 00:03:53,094 to be. 75 00:03:53,094 --> 00:04:10,444 And Jubitz Truck Stop in Portland, oregon, which turned 76 00:04:10,485 --> 00:04:12,169 out to be the Disneyland of truck stops, and a family-run 77 00:04:12,188 --> 00:04:15,757 business by Fred and Al Jubitz and Mo Jubitz A spectacular 78 00:04:16,077 --> 00:04:20,444 career opportunity, but now I'm an employee with no stock and 79 00:04:21,264 --> 00:04:24,709 I'm working in the truck stop industry, which, of course, 80 00:04:25,089 --> 00:04:29,935 turned into opportunities to work at DAT with that fabulous 81 00:04:29,995 --> 00:04:36,024 management team and we sold tire and retread manufacturing plant 82 00:04:36,024 --> 00:04:42,211 products that we controlled, provide services and facilitate 83 00:04:42,932 --> 00:04:49,103 over-the-road and regional trucking organizations, plus DAT 84 00:04:49,103 --> 00:04:52,271 , with the nation's largest database of available freight 85 00:04:52,290 --> 00:04:53,033 loads and trucks. 86 00:04:53,033 --> 00:04:56,514 I got a chance to work with Joel McGinley and Mark Cameron 87 00:04:56,533 --> 00:04:59,062 and a whole bunch of spectacular people over the years. 88 00:04:59,062 --> 00:05:04,112 Yeah, it turned out to be a spectacularly interesting 89 00:05:04,173 --> 00:05:04,533 business. 90 00:05:12,384 --> 00:05:13,668 Speaker 1: Yeah, it turned out to be a spectacularly 91 00:05:13,687 --> 00:05:15,252 interesting business and I think I proved that I could be the 92 00:05:15,273 --> 00:05:16,776 employee I always expected everyone to be, and then you got 93 00:05:16,776 --> 00:05:17,879 the itch eventually to move on to another thing. 94 00:05:24,060 --> 00:05:25,105 Speaker 2: I know you also spent time doing Trip Pack, which I 95 00:05:25,125 --> 00:05:26,413 assume was adjacent to the truck stop industry, just with what 96 00:05:26,432 --> 00:05:26,714 it actually is. 97 00:05:26,714 --> 00:05:27,699 I got recruited to join truckload management inc. 98 00:05:27,699 --> 00:05:32,608 Which was the brand owner of trip pack, and we had 3 000 drop 99 00:05:32,608 --> 00:05:38,302 boxes and shipping and consigning and fleet uh terminal 100 00:05:38,302 --> 00:05:39,985 locations nationwide. 101 00:05:39,985 --> 00:05:45,413 Uh overnight courier business that we then consolidated and 102 00:05:45,473 --> 00:05:49,403 sorted and distributed with our own courier network fleet 103 00:05:49,524 --> 00:05:54,372 documents, expedited delivery and my mission. 104 00:05:54,372 --> 00:05:58,608 I came in to take the technology that we had been 105 00:05:58,649 --> 00:06:02,839 developing and really scale it because we have the documents 106 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:04,204 before anybody else does. 107 00:06:04,264 --> 00:06:07,103 This is before truck stop scanning and we were a leader in 108 00:06:07,103 --> 00:06:12,437 that space this is before imaging in the phone and 109 00:06:12,497 --> 00:06:16,326 reliable document movement by apps, and we were of course 110 00:06:16,507 --> 00:06:19,052 pioneering those activities as well. 111 00:06:19,052 --> 00:06:24,170 But we had a football field full of people handling CRST and 112 00:06:24,170 --> 00:06:27,901 Swift and Schneider documents and it was a really fascinating 113 00:06:27,940 --> 00:06:32,771 thing to be in a position where for about five years I saw all 114 00:06:33,271 --> 00:06:37,365 of the dispatch data for a vast majority of America's trucking 115 00:06:37,406 --> 00:06:42,100 companies in one place In service to those fleets. 116 00:06:42,100 --> 00:06:47,233 I learned an awful lot and we performed very, very well and 117 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:51,670 eventually the company sold to ACS Affiliated Computer Services 118 00:06:51,670 --> 00:06:54,923 out of Dallas and that gave me my opportunity to work for a 119 00:06:54,963 --> 00:06:56,807 Fortune 500 company for a few years. 120 00:06:57,649 --> 00:06:59,745 Speaker 1: And so you just kept evolving One of the things that 121 00:06:59,826 --> 00:07:00,790 already stands out. 122 00:07:00,790 --> 00:07:03,500 Of course, you and I have had 100 conversations, so I know how 123 00:07:03,500 --> 00:07:07,988 your mind works, but for our listeners you hinted at a few 124 00:07:08,050 --> 00:07:08,490 things there. 125 00:07:08,490 --> 00:07:12,062 With TripPack, you saw an opportunity to innovate with 126 00:07:14,105 --> 00:07:18,973 data basically access to data earlier than others With Jubits, 127 00:07:18,973 --> 00:07:21,985 and then on the DAT side, sort of the same idea. 128 00:07:21,985 --> 00:07:26,093 You're pioneering some new insight or some new value that 129 00:07:26,132 --> 00:07:31,891 can be unlocked from an asset that's not being unlocked, and I 130 00:07:31,891 --> 00:07:37,824 think that that's a part of entrepreneurship that doesn't 131 00:07:37,903 --> 00:07:39,485 get enough attention. 132 00:07:39,706 --> 00:07:42,588 We focus a lot on the hustle and grind culture. 133 00:07:42,588 --> 00:07:48,276 We focus a lot on the Silicon Valley guy in a garage startup 134 00:07:48,355 --> 00:07:52,826 narrative, but we often don't talk about being able to see 135 00:07:52,966 --> 00:07:57,213 around the corner when nobody else has done anything yet. 136 00:07:57,213 --> 00:08:00,966 It's easy to follow a business model that somebody else created 137 00:08:00,966 --> 00:08:05,112 , but to be able to see the early signs of change in an 138 00:08:05,252 --> 00:08:11,331 industry or in technology as a whole seems to be one of your 139 00:08:12,314 --> 00:08:16,302 unique abilities that you can find that rare insight inside of 140 00:08:16,302 --> 00:08:22,273 a mass of information and and take out the noise and just find 141 00:08:22,273 --> 00:08:22,774 the signal. 142 00:08:22,774 --> 00:08:25,428 And then you're one of those folks that you just go. 143 00:08:25,428 --> 00:08:26,502 You're a deep ender. 144 00:08:26,502 --> 00:08:31,172 You go off the deep end all the way into that opportunity. 145 00:08:31,172 --> 00:08:35,687 So how do you, or what do you, attribute that skillset to? 146 00:08:36,971 --> 00:08:37,594 Speaker 2: Interesting we. 147 00:08:37,594 --> 00:08:38,777 We can go back. 148 00:08:38,777 --> 00:08:40,966 I spent nine years at Jubits Corporation. 149 00:08:40,966 --> 00:08:41,850 We could go all the way back to that. 150 00:08:41,850 --> 00:08:42,614 I was an entrepreneur before that. 151 00:08:42,614 --> 00:08:43,096 At Jubitz Corporation. 152 00:08:43,096 --> 00:08:43,840 We could go all the way back to that. 153 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:49,940 I was an entrepreneur before that. 154 00:08:53,460 --> 00:08:55,625 But at Jubitz I had an intentional process to sit down 155 00:08:55,705 --> 00:09:01,980 with a roundtable, a driver's roundtable, truckers and at 156 00:09:02,181 --> 00:09:07,424 least twice a week for nine years and I gained a little 157 00:09:07,445 --> 00:09:13,369 weight doing this I would host truck drivers America's finest 158 00:09:13,589 --> 00:09:20,072 humans in, listen to the conversation and contribute to 159 00:09:20,133 --> 00:09:20,833 it, but lead it. 160 00:09:20,833 --> 00:09:29,950 I guess it feels like now, upon deep reflection. 161 00:09:29,950 --> 00:09:32,740 It feels a little bit like I was a podcast host with eight 162 00:09:32,782 --> 00:09:37,326 guests and eight people in the audience every single week, 163 00:09:37,746 --> 00:09:42,760 consistently looking for and listening for signals and 164 00:09:44,245 --> 00:09:46,691 they're closer to the market and closer to the problem. 165 00:09:46,691 --> 00:09:51,890 And we did essentially product development out of that activity 166 00:09:51,890 --> 00:09:56,302 and you know, if you're a Silicon Valley executive, you 167 00:09:56,342 --> 00:10:00,893 might not consider going to get knee deep and elbow wide with a 168 00:10:00,932 --> 00:10:02,543 trucker in that industry. 169 00:10:02,543 --> 00:10:04,591 I found that I respected them more. 170 00:10:04,591 --> 00:10:08,604 I appreciated their work, I understood what a fleet's 171 00:10:08,664 --> 00:10:12,539 challenges might be to operate and dispatch and you know, as 172 00:10:12,580 --> 00:10:17,812 you continue to work through, the great superpower I think is 173 00:10:17,892 --> 00:10:18,293 listening. 174 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,525 Speaker 1: That's where the insights come from, to begin 175 00:10:22,566 --> 00:10:22,706 with. 176 00:10:23,609 --> 00:10:25,595 Speaker 2: That's where the insights come from. 177 00:10:25,595 --> 00:10:29,480 To begin with, I think so, and a good idea might be an entity 178 00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:29,761 all by itself. 179 00:10:29,761 --> 00:10:35,109 I like to imagine ideas as spiritual inspirations, little 180 00:10:35,249 --> 00:10:38,232 light bulbs floating around the universe, landing in my head 181 00:10:38,333 --> 00:10:42,986 trying to be born, and then, if I don't give it care, attention 182 00:10:43,027 --> 00:10:46,083 and water, it can never sprout and it leaves my brain and comes 183 00:10:46,083 --> 00:10:48,870 to yours, nate, because you're a fertile ground for making 184 00:10:48,931 --> 00:10:49,511 something happen. 185 00:10:49,511 --> 00:10:53,288 But I feel like ideas. 186 00:10:53,288 --> 00:10:57,155 They present themselves, and then it's about dedication and 187 00:10:57,216 --> 00:10:57,600 execution. 188 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:04,071 How can you feed that and pull the energy that exists out of 189 00:11:04,091 --> 00:11:07,982 that listening experience and that idea and translate it into 190 00:11:08,243 --> 00:11:08,583 action? 191 00:11:08,583 --> 00:11:11,327 Um, I've done it a lot, I. 192 00:11:11,327 --> 00:11:18,143 I don't know why it's easy for me, um, but it is well, there's 193 00:11:18,203 --> 00:11:19,566 a creative element to it. 194 00:11:20,287 --> 00:11:22,850 Speaker 1: Um, that is unique also. 195 00:11:22,850 --> 00:11:24,533 And I, I play music. 196 00:11:24,533 --> 00:11:26,615 I can't read a lick of it, but I can play by ear. 197 00:11:26,615 --> 00:11:30,448 If somebody, if I hear a melody , I can go over to the piano and 198 00:11:30,448 --> 00:11:30,828 play it. 199 00:11:30,828 --> 00:11:33,663 Or I can grab a guitar and figure it out in a couple of 200 00:11:33,724 --> 00:11:35,570 minutes, and to me that is not difficult. 201 00:11:35,570 --> 00:11:40,215 But, um, to others they're like wow, that's an incredible skill 202 00:11:40,215 --> 00:11:43,140 and it comes so easily to me that I almost take it for 203 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:43,461 granted. 204 00:11:43,461 --> 00:11:44,341 And I assume you're. 205 00:11:44,341 --> 00:11:48,908 You, you not take it for granted, but you, you're leaning 206 00:11:48,908 --> 00:11:53,275 into your superpowers, which you know. 207 00:11:53,275 --> 00:11:54,778 For you they're not difficult. 208 00:11:55,038 --> 00:11:59,375 Speaker 2: So post, let's, let's move past the kind of your 209 00:11:59,455 --> 00:12:13,455 early logistics ventures Then what was the idea that floated 210 00:12:13,475 --> 00:12:19,460 through the air and also accepting the fact that I don't 211 00:12:19,519 --> 00:12:22,982 know enough to make all the right decisions. 212 00:12:22,982 --> 00:12:29,072 And if you combine those things , I was right. 213 00:12:29,072 --> 00:12:31,894 After I left TripPack, we had a great. 214 00:12:31,894 --> 00:12:35,539 I had a great mergers and acquisitions experience there as 215 00:12:35,539 --> 00:12:43,294 somebody that got bought and, wow, I wanted to learn more 216 00:12:43,335 --> 00:12:44,879 about American manufacturing. 217 00:12:44,879 --> 00:12:48,264 I just spent a long period of time outsourcing jobs. 218 00:12:48,264 --> 00:12:52,033 You know, today the logistics industry is outsourcing jobs to 219 00:12:52,355 --> 00:12:52,895 Columbia. 220 00:12:52,895 --> 00:12:58,835 Or you know it's taking in Pakistan labor arbitrage. 221 00:12:58,835 --> 00:13:00,759 We were doing this in 2000. 222 00:13:00,759 --> 00:13:05,753 But what we were doing was taking Crete Carriers and their 223 00:13:06,695 --> 00:13:10,169 document management, opening mailroom teams. 224 00:13:10,169 --> 00:13:12,926 We were outsourcing their mailroom and imaging systems and 225 00:13:12,926 --> 00:13:14,610 also providing workflow for them. 226 00:13:14,610 --> 00:13:18,826 So I'm in the transportation industry and I see, then we sold 227 00:13:18,826 --> 00:13:21,274 to ACS and next thing, you know , we're in a follow the sun 228 00:13:21,293 --> 00:13:21,595 model. 229 00:13:21,595 --> 00:13:25,971 We've got I have 56 developers working for me all over the 230 00:13:26,013 --> 00:13:30,147 world and follow the sun model means you're distributing your 231 00:13:30,187 --> 00:13:32,693 workforce to where it's the least expensive and you're 232 00:13:32,794 --> 00:13:37,394 networked and the business model really lent itself to being 233 00:13:37,434 --> 00:13:38,376 efficient in that way. 234 00:13:39,306 --> 00:13:43,957 But I became super aware of the cost of job outsourcing. 235 00:13:43,957 --> 00:13:51,027 It made sense when it was from Nebraska to Ohio, but all of a 236 00:13:51,067 --> 00:13:54,476 sudden, I'm seeing it at scale internationally and globally and 237 00:13:54,476 --> 00:13:55,908 working and participating in that. 238 00:13:55,908 --> 00:13:59,647 So what I wanted to do was see if I could create jobs in the 239 00:13:59,687 --> 00:14:01,773 United States and what could I do? 240 00:14:01,773 --> 00:14:06,826 That would be a job creator and eventually, the criteria for 241 00:14:06,947 --> 00:14:08,110 getting into the stock business. 242 00:14:08,110 --> 00:14:11,217 There's four or five things that I wanted to do specifically 243 00:14:11,217 --> 00:14:12,746 into the stock business. 244 00:14:12,746 --> 00:14:15,291 There's four or five things that I wanted to do specifically 245 00:14:15,291 --> 00:14:17,634 Be a market leader, create a brand, be green from the start 246 00:14:17,695 --> 00:14:23,509 as a startup, be a technology leader and best in class. 247 00:14:23,509 --> 00:14:27,758 So I was looking at chicken processing plants to buy or 248 00:14:29,047 --> 00:14:33,556 packaging food packaging systems and eventually what happened 249 00:14:33,596 --> 00:14:39,553 was I decided to buy a position in Ellsworth Handcrafted 250 00:14:39,573 --> 00:14:43,431 Bicycles and help my junior high buddy after I left this big 251 00:14:43,471 --> 00:14:44,595 Fortune 500 job. 252 00:14:44,595 --> 00:14:50,914 I'm helping him do US domestic high-end mountain bike 253 00:14:52,096 --> 00:14:54,039 manufacturing in the United States. 254 00:14:54,725 --> 00:14:57,674 This is how I dropped some weight from my career. 255 00:14:57,674 --> 00:15:02,374 I said you know, I'm going to have to change the things I pay 256 00:15:02,433 --> 00:15:06,072 my professional attention to in order to drop 60 pounds here. 257 00:15:06,072 --> 00:15:11,201 And I became a bicycle manufacturer and I started 258 00:15:11,241 --> 00:15:14,405 traveling globally and expanding my global supply chain 259 00:15:14,466 --> 00:15:19,616 experience and re-engineering the supply chain in order to 260 00:15:19,657 --> 00:15:21,606 make the world's best mountain bike. 261 00:15:21,606 --> 00:15:24,754 So in order to promote the world's best mountain bike, I 262 00:15:24,815 --> 00:15:30,393 started a event management company that did 12-hour exotic 263 00:15:30,894 --> 00:15:35,785 and long-distance exotic cycling events with world-class 264 00:15:35,846 --> 00:15:36,447 competitors. 265 00:15:36,447 --> 00:15:41,999 So I'm at one of those events and in order to promote the 266 00:15:42,038 --> 00:15:46,096 event, to promote the experience , I went to this sock 267 00:15:46,136 --> 00:15:51,052 manufacturing teeny, tiny little activity and I bought 600 pairs 268 00:15:51,052 --> 00:15:55,707 of socks and I put my logo on them for the event and for 269 00:15:55,748 --> 00:15:58,653 Ellsworth and gave them away. 270 00:15:59,836 --> 00:16:01,039 But this event was unique. 271 00:16:01,039 --> 00:16:02,363 It's like 2006. 272 00:16:02,363 --> 00:16:06,831 It's the first time that female mountain bikes, female mountain 273 00:16:06,831 --> 00:16:11,368 bike professionals, were paid the same as male mountain bike 274 00:16:11,508 --> 00:16:12,874 professionals for a podium. 275 00:16:12,874 --> 00:16:15,390 I just looked at that and said you're kidding me. 276 00:16:15,390 --> 00:16:18,306 The females win 500 bucks and the guys win a thousand. 277 00:16:18,306 --> 00:16:21,854 You know, it's that sort of dichotomy. 278 00:16:21,854 --> 00:16:27,605 And so we had all the professional female racers from 279 00:16:27,706 --> 00:16:30,352 all over the country came out of the woodwork to compete in this 280 00:16:30,352 --> 00:16:34,250 event and support it our first year, and so did all the guys. 281 00:16:34,424 --> 00:16:41,058 So we had this Olympic event and all 600 socks got given away. 282 00:16:41,058 --> 00:16:46,452 And at the end of that day we're drinking beer like you 283 00:16:46,493 --> 00:16:50,859 would at a festival mountain bike race and chatting about how 284 00:16:50,859 --> 00:16:53,312 exciting it was, and people were coming up to me saying, 285 00:16:53,664 --> 00:16:55,008 yeah, this was a great race. 286 00:16:55,008 --> 00:16:57,695 And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, where did you get these 287 00:16:57,774 --> 00:16:58,738 freaking socks? 288 00:16:58,738 --> 00:17:03,091 And if I heard that like 150 times that night. 289 00:17:03,091 --> 00:17:08,026 People had just put that product to an intense market 290 00:17:08,086 --> 00:17:11,953 research project and I didn't know it was happening until I 291 00:17:12,075 --> 00:17:15,969 recognized it and I thought, wow , that's the business I'm going 292 00:17:15,989 --> 00:17:20,365 to get in and it fit all the criteria for best in class high 293 00:17:20,405 --> 00:17:22,530 technology US domestic production. 294 00:17:22,530 --> 00:17:24,856 And that's how SwiftWake was born. 295 00:17:25,944 --> 00:17:31,457 Speaker 1: So again, you are rare in the way that you go 296 00:17:31,497 --> 00:17:32,538 about solving problems. 297 00:17:32,538 --> 00:17:35,189 I can't imagine what it would be like to have been in your 298 00:17:35,249 --> 00:17:39,776 family around this period of time when I'm sure some around 299 00:17:39,915 --> 00:17:42,019 you were like, no, let's not let him leave the house because 300 00:17:42,038 --> 00:17:43,141 he's going to start another company. 301 00:17:43,141 --> 00:17:45,750 Like if he runs into somebody at the hardware store and he 302 00:17:45,789 --> 00:17:48,296 can't find the right hammer, he's going to go try to build it 303 00:17:48,296 --> 00:17:49,458 , make a new hammer company. 304 00:17:49,458 --> 00:17:50,990 Does that ring true? 305 00:17:51,565 --> 00:17:52,872 Speaker 2: It feels exactly like that Even when I swear I'm not 306 00:17:52,823 --> 00:17:53,180 going to go try to build it, make a new hammer company. 307 00:17:53,180 --> 00:17:53,301 Does that ring true? 308 00:17:53,301 --> 00:17:54,836 It feels exactly like that Even when I swear I'm not going to 309 00:17:54,876 --> 00:17:55,818 start another company. 310 00:17:55,818 --> 00:17:58,710 I'm right now, like right now, in the middle of starting a new 311 00:17:58,750 --> 00:17:59,553 company, right now. 312 00:18:01,026 --> 00:18:02,210 Speaker 1: Which would be company number? 313 00:18:03,313 --> 00:18:06,761 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I just sold one, which makes it seven 314 00:18:06,883 --> 00:18:09,333 companies that I've started and sold in seven different 315 00:18:09,373 --> 00:18:15,585 industries, and this one will be yet a new industrial activity. 316 00:18:15,585 --> 00:18:16,851 We're going for some patents. 317 00:18:16,851 --> 00:18:21,205 I'll come back and tell you, maybe in a future episode, what 318 00:18:21,226 --> 00:18:21,587 we did. 319 00:18:21,587 --> 00:18:25,631 That blew people's hair off and it's really exciting because 320 00:18:25,671 --> 00:18:26,994 it's a fantastic idea. 321 00:18:26,994 --> 00:18:30,971 And these are the things like when you see a really good idea 322 00:18:31,112 --> 00:18:36,267 and then you go how in the world has this not been done? 323 00:18:36,267 --> 00:18:38,491 And you do a patent search and you look all over the market and 324 00:18:38,491 --> 00:18:41,077 you can't find anything and you're scratching your head. 325 00:18:41,077 --> 00:18:44,669 Well, it's up to your action-oriented, 326 00:18:45,250 --> 00:18:52,560 experience-based decision-making , human creative body to act. 327 00:18:53,826 --> 00:18:56,469 Speaker 1: This is a dangerous question and I'm going to ask 328 00:18:56,509 --> 00:18:58,375 you in advance to not be diplomatic. 329 00:18:58,375 --> 00:19:02,211 Of the companies that you've started, do you have a favorite? 330 00:19:04,676 --> 00:19:08,874 Speaker 2: Yes, swiftwick was the most fun because I lost the 331 00:19:08,913 --> 00:19:09,476 most weight. 332 00:19:09,476 --> 00:19:15,242 I was really, really intentional about building a 333 00:19:15,304 --> 00:19:20,770 company with A players from day one and we recruited salespeople 334 00:19:20,770 --> 00:19:22,596 that would go run 50 miles for lunch. 335 00:19:22,596 --> 00:19:29,242 Some of them qualified for Ironman National Championships 336 00:19:29,304 --> 00:19:29,704 in Kona. 337 00:19:29,704 --> 00:19:36,335 These were incredibly dedicated , physically fit men and women 338 00:19:36,734 --> 00:19:39,980 who you know I got to get my game on. 339 00:19:39,980 --> 00:19:44,211 To hang around, yeah, yeah, to hang around them right and to 340 00:19:44,270 --> 00:19:44,673 lead them. 341 00:19:44,673 --> 00:19:46,551 You know the CEO sets the weather. 342 00:19:49,126 --> 00:19:50,090 Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? 343 00:19:51,185 --> 00:19:54,836 Speaker 2: Well, it's an emotional and a spiritual and a, 344 00:19:54,836 --> 00:19:56,089 I think, a real thing. 345 00:19:56,089 --> 00:20:00,228 Maybe the CEO's most important role and we've talked about this 346 00:20:00,228 --> 00:20:03,818 recently is is, uh, to set the weather in the company. 347 00:20:03,818 --> 00:20:06,025 Um, the weather patterns. 348 00:20:06,025 --> 00:20:09,614 If we come in and it's a rainy, gloomy day, then we set the 349 00:20:09,634 --> 00:20:10,556 weather we're up to. 350 00:20:10,556 --> 00:20:13,506 We're supposed to be creating environments for other people to 351 00:20:13,506 --> 00:20:17,635 be successful, which includes acquiring resources. 352 00:20:17,635 --> 00:20:19,226 It includes making good decisions. 353 00:20:19,226 --> 00:20:23,095 It includes sometimes passing the decisions down to the front 354 00:20:23,134 --> 00:20:27,348 line where they can be made faster, and then occasionally 355 00:20:27,990 --> 00:20:30,054 using those as training opportunities and learning 356 00:20:30,233 --> 00:20:30,795 opportunities. 357 00:20:30,914 --> 00:20:38,076 But you set the weather by your attitude, and I had an 358 00:20:38,135 --> 00:20:41,346 experience there where the people that I hired and the 359 00:20:41,527 --> 00:20:44,237 nature of their chew-through-nails, 360 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,932 goal-oriented attitude and the fact that we were building the 361 00:20:48,972 --> 00:20:51,971 world's best sock that set my weather. 362 00:20:51,971 --> 00:20:57,494 I had to go learn how to take better care of myself and to put 363 00:20:57,494 --> 00:21:02,977 some of my own needs as a leader and a human first, which 364 00:21:03,057 --> 00:21:08,220 included a fitness regimen and a commitment to learning that I 365 00:21:08,259 --> 00:21:10,161 formalized in that window of time. 366 00:21:10,161 --> 00:21:12,001 So I think Swiftwick is my favorite. 367 00:21:12,001 --> 00:21:17,651 I still own a tiny piece, sold that business, but I'm 368 00:21:17,691 --> 00:21:20,411 interested in their success and they still make the world's best 369 00:21:20,411 --> 00:21:20,732 sock. 370 00:21:21,505 --> 00:21:24,346 Speaker 1: So you mentioned having a framework for Actually, 371 00:21:24,346 --> 00:21:25,991 I do have a Swiftwick request. 372 00:21:25,991 --> 00:21:29,202 By the way, I'd love to see a golf sock added to the 373 00:21:29,222 --> 00:21:29,444 collection. 374 00:21:30,146 --> 00:21:32,654 Speaker 2: Well, every Swiftwick sock is a golf sock. 375 00:21:32,654 --> 00:21:35,826 Um, and there's a story there too. 376 00:21:36,930 --> 00:21:38,395 Speaker 1: I actually wear them when I golf. 377 00:21:38,395 --> 00:21:40,724 Uh, I just wish there was a version that was a little lower 378 00:21:40,865 --> 00:21:41,086 cut. 379 00:21:41,086 --> 00:21:44,094 But that's a that's a separate show we can do yeah, that, 380 00:21:44,134 --> 00:21:50,951 that's a canoe sock, that's for your wife Uh, come for the 381 00:21:50,991 --> 00:21:52,354 logistics, stay for the humor. 382 00:21:52,354 --> 00:21:54,036 Uh, we, we we. 383 00:21:54,135 --> 00:21:55,637 Speaker 2: We had an opportunity . 384 00:21:55,637 --> 00:21:57,861 Um, we went after golf. 385 00:21:57,861 --> 00:22:00,431 This is a good lesson for any business. 386 00:22:00,431 --> 00:22:05,284 Uh, my partner was an avid golfer, still is I. 387 00:22:05,284 --> 00:22:08,790 I was not so much of an avid golfer but I I could see that 388 00:22:08,951 --> 00:22:12,278 golf market would be great and we went after it. 389 00:22:12,278 --> 00:22:15,946 And we went after it with a vengeance, with a really 390 00:22:16,007 --> 00:22:19,636 talented golf professional to help us with that. 391 00:22:19,636 --> 00:22:25,252 And she just wasn't successful and we withdrew from the market. 392 00:22:25,252 --> 00:22:28,393 But we weren't not interested in it anymore. 393 00:22:28,393 --> 00:22:32,493 We just failed and we kept growing in the cycling and 394 00:22:32,554 --> 00:22:34,227 running and triathlon markets. 395 00:22:34,227 --> 00:22:39,297 But a few years later I hired somebody who was extraordinarily 396 00:22:39,297 --> 00:22:44,633 passionate about golf and he took the product to the caddies 397 00:22:44,973 --> 00:22:47,765 and the caddies all fell in love with the product and the 398 00:22:47,785 --> 00:22:50,416 caddies influenced the pros and the pros all. 399 00:22:50,416 --> 00:22:54,009 Next thing, you know, we've got a 70 market share in the pga 400 00:22:54,048 --> 00:22:58,499 tour, 100 gorilla, 100 successful. 401 00:22:58,499 --> 00:23:03,128 Now we're selling swiftwick socks in most major golf. 402 00:23:03,128 --> 00:23:08,021 Um, you know a lot of of the major golf shops in in great 403 00:23:08,162 --> 00:23:12,913 courses nationwide and the lesson there was it's exactly 404 00:23:13,035 --> 00:23:13,817 the same sock. 405 00:23:13,817 --> 00:23:16,232 It was introduced in a different way. 406 00:23:16,232 --> 00:23:20,455 It got traction because it outperforms any other sock. 407 00:23:21,948 --> 00:23:22,991 But the nugget. 408 00:23:22,991 --> 00:23:26,545 The moment is when Adam Smith won the Masters. 409 00:23:26,545 --> 00:23:31,244 And he's standing on the green and he raises his knee and his 410 00:23:31,305 --> 00:23:34,567 hand's in the air and he's got one leg out and one leg in front 411 00:23:34,567 --> 00:23:34,788 of him. 412 00:23:34,788 --> 00:23:36,630 And he's just on the green and he raises his knee and his hands 413 00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:39,131 in the air and he's got one leg out and one leg in front of him 414 00:23:39,131 --> 00:23:40,833 and he's just going yeah, and you can see it on the cover, and 415 00:23:40,833 --> 00:23:43,015 that lifted his pant leg and exposed the Swiftwick logo. 416 00:23:43,015 --> 00:23:44,655 That was the breakthrough moment. 417 00:23:44,655 --> 00:23:48,598 And the other breakthrough moment for us was with Camila 418 00:23:48,618 --> 00:23:51,942 Villegas, who used to do the spider pose and he'd get down 419 00:23:52,021 --> 00:23:53,063 and read the grass. 420 00:23:53,063 --> 00:24:00,346 Remember that Vaguely. 421 00:24:00,346 --> 00:24:01,608 Camilla is really the pro who introduced Swiftwick because 422 00:24:01,628 --> 00:24:04,054 he's so fitness oriented, one of the early fitness oriented 423 00:24:04,094 --> 00:24:07,607 professionals, a cyclist, and so he discovered us from cycling. 424 00:24:07,607 --> 00:24:12,596 He wore our socks and then everybody who would take a 425 00:24:12,656 --> 00:24:14,826 photograph of him trying to read the green. 426 00:24:14,826 --> 00:24:19,815 There was no way except to see the Swiftwick logo right beneath 427 00:24:19,815 --> 00:24:21,137 his line of sight. 428 00:24:21,137 --> 00:24:21,679 Sternum yeah. 429 00:24:22,404 --> 00:24:29,094 And plus, I think he had the most amazing gallery of females 430 00:24:29,335 --> 00:24:31,336 following him on the whole planet. 431 00:24:31,336 --> 00:24:36,250 So maybe they all bought them for their um, their their gift 432 00:24:36,671 --> 00:24:37,551 items for Christmas. 433 00:24:37,551 --> 00:24:41,425 But we, you know, between Camillo and Adam Scott and a few 434 00:24:41,425 --> 00:24:46,616 people who were and won, uh, we , we got significant traction in 435 00:24:46,616 --> 00:24:47,159 in golf. 436 00:24:47,585 --> 00:24:50,586 Speaker 1: Well, and I swear by them, I, I wear them golfing too 437 00:24:50,586 --> 00:24:50,586 . 438 00:24:50,586 --> 00:24:52,888 This is not turning into a promo episode, but if you're 439 00:24:52,909 --> 00:24:55,730 listening, go check it out, because they are absolutely 440 00:24:55,770 --> 00:24:56,152 legit. 441 00:24:56,152 --> 00:24:58,933 When you first told me about them, I didn't tell you, but I 442 00:24:58,993 --> 00:25:02,236 actually went out and bought a pair within a week and it was 443 00:25:02,277 --> 00:25:04,979 part of my vetting of you. 444 00:25:04,979 --> 00:25:07,861 I was like Mark says these are the best socks in the world and 445 00:25:07,941 --> 00:25:09,741 I'm going to test them out and see if they are. 446 00:25:09,741 --> 00:25:12,445 And if they aren't, then Mark might not be. 447 00:25:12,445 --> 00:25:14,391 You know who he says he is. 448 00:25:14,391 --> 00:25:16,757 And I was like dang, these are really good socks. 449 00:25:17,664 --> 00:25:20,352 Speaker 2: Dang Well, you know, I think it's just a lesson, 450 00:25:20,412 --> 00:25:20,673 right? 451 00:25:20,673 --> 00:25:23,911 So you try things that don't work the first time that doesn't 452 00:25:23,911 --> 00:25:24,994 mean you don't try them again. 453 00:25:24,994 --> 00:25:28,548 And I entered the sock business knowing absolutely nothing 454 00:25:28,867 --> 00:25:34,019 about textiles and became an expert over a seven-year period 455 00:25:34,944 --> 00:25:38,994 and I'm speaking at conferences and I'm the little brand that 456 00:25:39,035 --> 00:25:41,140 could and we can. 457 00:25:41,140 --> 00:25:45,471 And we kept trying things and sometimes we would try them with 458 00:25:45,471 --> 00:25:46,534 different recipe. 459 00:25:46,534 --> 00:25:48,266 It would taste better the next time. 460 00:25:48,266 --> 00:25:50,893 I think that's important in logistics. 461 00:25:50,893 --> 00:25:52,116 It's important in business. 462 00:25:52,116 --> 00:25:55,490 We don't have to be experts in the business. 463 00:25:55,490 --> 00:26:02,868 Sometimes our absolute naivete is a competitive weapon because 464 00:26:02,949 --> 00:26:05,195 we don't know what we can't do. 465 00:26:05,195 --> 00:26:10,710 So we don't enter any of these decision-making situations with 466 00:26:11,090 --> 00:26:14,266 preconceived notions based on 30 years of working in the 467 00:26:14,306 --> 00:26:15,788 industry about what doesn't work . 468 00:26:16,189 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 1: Yes, you also seem to have a very candid and 469 00:26:22,765 --> 00:26:24,511 straightforward way of talking about failure. 470 00:26:24,511 --> 00:26:28,846 Most of the time, failure is something to be rejected or 471 00:26:29,087 --> 00:26:34,782 masked or not talked about, and yet you simply you said we tried 472 00:26:34,782 --> 00:26:38,832 and we failed, and there was no , it wasn't loaded. 473 00:26:38,832 --> 00:26:41,657 You just owned it and then moved on to the next thing. 474 00:26:41,657 --> 00:26:46,894 I've learned that lesson, and I think there is something to be 475 00:26:46,974 --> 00:26:48,136 said for that of. 476 00:26:48,136 --> 00:26:49,926 Sometimes it's just time to let it go. 477 00:26:49,926 --> 00:26:50,709 It's not. 478 00:26:51,913 --> 00:26:56,550 Not every idea needs to be a lifetime commitment, Not every 479 00:26:56,631 --> 00:26:57,132 business. 480 00:26:57,132 --> 00:27:00,258 Sometimes businesses are for seasons. 481 00:27:00,258 --> 00:27:04,012 They they work for two years or they work for eight years, and 482 00:27:04,032 --> 00:27:07,189 then it's time to move on to the next thing, Not because it is 483 00:27:07,250 --> 00:27:10,136 or isn't financially successful, but because it's not the right 484 00:27:10,176 --> 00:27:11,707 thing for you anymore. 485 00:27:11,707 --> 00:27:14,230 So do you have your own framework then? 486 00:27:14,230 --> 00:27:17,296 For because you could have you have a hundred ideas a week, but 487 00:27:17,296 --> 00:27:19,038 you've only got 24 hours a day. 488 00:27:19,038 --> 00:27:26,096 So how do you filter in and filter out beyond just the 489 00:27:26,597 --> 00:27:28,846 financial viability of a business and beyond? 490 00:27:28,846 --> 00:27:31,915 I like how you framed up Swiftwick. 491 00:27:31,915 --> 00:27:37,127 It met these five criteria of what I wanted to do next, but 492 00:27:37,167 --> 00:27:40,692 there has to be something else to it. 493 00:27:40,692 --> 00:27:46,566 Also, you got two brilliant ideas that are equal. 494 00:27:46,566 --> 00:27:47,467 How do you choose? 495 00:27:49,931 --> 00:27:52,335 Speaker 2: I think the first thing is to approach that 496 00:27:52,435 --> 00:27:55,140 question with the attitude of a parent. 497 00:27:55,140 --> 00:28:03,442 I have two brilliant daughters I do not have to choose and one 498 00:28:03,481 --> 00:28:06,471 of them became a global supply chain's logistics expert and 499 00:28:06,511 --> 00:28:09,624 grew up in some of my businesses and is a superstar, and the 500 00:28:09,664 --> 00:28:12,555 other one became a doctor and they'd make their own choices. 501 00:28:12,555 --> 00:28:18,107 Businesses grow up, just like kids do, and we have to change 502 00:28:18,147 --> 00:28:23,337 our management style from the baby to the toddler to the first 503 00:28:23,337 --> 00:28:24,930 grader Terrible twos, right. 504 00:28:24,930 --> 00:28:30,153 It's constantly challenging us as parents to manage ourselves 505 00:28:30,894 --> 00:28:33,017 and set the environment for success. 506 00:28:33,017 --> 00:28:38,234 So that's my first secret is that I love all my companies, 507 00:28:38,615 --> 00:28:39,878 just like I love my children. 508 00:28:39,878 --> 00:28:43,367 Some of them have greater opportunities than others or 509 00:28:43,407 --> 00:28:47,237 maybe more natural skill sets that can be expressed, and some 510 00:28:47,257 --> 00:28:47,865 of them have. 511 00:28:47,865 --> 00:28:52,932 I think we all as parents, we see this kid has a lot of 512 00:28:52,972 --> 00:28:55,876 potential and is just not interested in achieving it for 513 00:28:55,916 --> 00:28:56,417 some reason. 514 00:28:56,518 --> 00:28:57,278 I don't know what that is. 515 00:28:57,278 --> 00:28:58,260 Maybe that's a season. 516 00:28:58,260 --> 00:29:02,813 Sometimes, you know, you add on the dynamics of marketplaces 517 00:29:03,153 --> 00:29:06,441 and markets give you signals about what's working, what's not 518 00:29:06,441 --> 00:29:06,781 working. 519 00:29:06,781 --> 00:29:12,055 Okay, I have a flaw related to failure, and that is I don't 520 00:29:12,115 --> 00:29:12,576 want to fail. 521 00:29:12,576 --> 00:29:18,336 I may be afraid of failure, and so it drives me harder. 522 00:29:18,336 --> 00:29:25,548 But failure is so informative and so important and in fact, in 523 00:29:25,548 --> 00:29:30,209 my view, failure we are failing all the time, like 100% of the 524 00:29:30,269 --> 00:29:33,836 time everything that I'm doing is a failure compared to 525 00:29:33,896 --> 00:29:34,258 something. 526 00:29:34,258 --> 00:29:40,233 So I just stopped comparing and start to enjoy whatever 527 00:29:40,295 --> 00:29:45,330 progress we made as a success, even if it felt like a failure 528 00:29:45,411 --> 00:29:59,567 because my expectations were too high, I think. 529 00:29:59,567 --> 00:30:02,882 Thirdly, I tried not in my more advanced age I try to settle 530 00:30:02,902 --> 00:30:03,404 expectations down. 531 00:30:03,404 --> 00:30:09,210 I think you know if a company has goals the team's not bought 532 00:30:09,390 --> 00:30:13,958 into, then the vision, values and culture and why we're doing 533 00:30:13,998 --> 00:30:17,452 what we're doing, then it doesn't matter how good 534 00:30:17,773 --> 00:30:21,685 executive leadership is, you're not going to achieve the way you 535 00:30:21,685 --> 00:30:22,287 expect to. 536 00:30:22,287 --> 00:30:30,618 So expectations are premeditated resentment and it's 537 00:30:30,618 --> 00:30:34,153 important to start every meeting with a little victory. 538 00:30:34,153 --> 00:30:36,744 All right, everybody, let's talk about our little victories. 539 00:30:36,744 --> 00:30:39,753 Like you can't come to one of my meetings without having a 540 00:30:39,794 --> 00:30:42,789 little victory, and I don't care what it is, but everybody 541 00:30:42,871 --> 00:30:46,609 starts reporting out some random whatever they consider to be a 542 00:30:46,650 --> 00:30:47,132 little victory. 543 00:30:47,132 --> 00:30:52,053 And you can't have progress without some setbacks, because 544 00:30:52,073 --> 00:30:56,009 you learn in that time what to do and sometimes you learn what 545 00:30:56,049 --> 00:30:56,471 not to do. 546 00:30:57,644 --> 00:31:00,068 And my grandfather taught me. 547 00:31:00,068 --> 00:31:04,616 He said, mark, if you want to be successful, you got to learn 548 00:31:04,696 --> 00:31:06,240 from the mistakes of the other guy. 549 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:11,411 They're the least expensive kind and I just have had that 550 00:31:11,991 --> 00:31:13,576 drilled into my head all my life . 551 00:31:13,576 --> 00:31:18,573 You know, I observe and listen and watch for what's a mistake. 552 00:31:18,573 --> 00:31:21,807 Now does that mean that that move by that business was the 553 00:31:21,866 --> 00:31:23,614 right move or the wrong move at that time? 554 00:31:23,614 --> 00:31:24,689 Was it really a mistake? 555 00:31:24,689 --> 00:31:28,372 Or what can I learn from that and relatively adjust my 556 00:31:28,432 --> 00:31:29,976 approach to problem solving? 557 00:31:31,346 --> 00:31:34,213 And failure is just such a charged word. 558 00:31:34,213 --> 00:31:38,172 I had a hat literally I have a baseball hat with the word 559 00:31:38,313 --> 00:31:44,490 failure across the top and it made me uncomfortable wearing it 560 00:31:44,490 --> 00:31:44,490 . 561 00:31:44,490 --> 00:31:48,137 Test yourself, do something like that. 562 00:31:48,137 --> 00:31:50,528 You know how can you embrace failure? 563 00:31:50,528 --> 00:31:55,936 Because we're all some flawed example of humanity running 564 00:31:55,977 --> 00:31:57,740 around looking for a place to be loved. 565 00:31:57,740 --> 00:32:00,428 You know that's all a company is doing, that's all customers 566 00:32:00,488 --> 00:32:02,233 are doing, that's all we're doing. 567 00:32:02,233 --> 00:32:06,130 So let's set the weather right, let's set the environment. 568 00:32:06,130 --> 00:32:11,432 As leaders, let's be creative and try new things and see if we 569 00:32:11,432 --> 00:32:15,740 can hatch a new idea and give it some legs, and just listen. 570 00:32:17,286 --> 00:32:20,694 Speaker 1: Have you thought about codifying your philosophy 571 00:32:20,775 --> 00:32:21,537 on a lot of these things? 572 00:32:21,537 --> 00:32:22,951 You've had mentors in your life . 573 00:32:22,951 --> 00:32:27,873 You've had business partners, friends, advisors that have, I'm 574 00:32:27,873 --> 00:32:33,383 sure, shaped much of your view on things and your ability to 575 00:32:33,563 --> 00:32:38,550 clearly articulate and communicate. 576 00:32:38,550 --> 00:32:41,055 That vision is contagious. 577 00:32:41,055 --> 00:32:44,546 It's part of why, you know, when you and I first met, I got 578 00:32:44,566 --> 00:32:45,730 to spend more time with this guy . 579 00:32:45,730 --> 00:32:50,686 You've got high energy, you've got really clear perspectives on 580 00:32:50,686 --> 00:32:54,656 what you know, think and believe and you follow through. 581 00:32:54,656 --> 00:32:57,169 Have you ever thought about writing a book? 582 00:32:59,194 --> 00:33:02,593 Speaker 2: Yeah, when I was at Swiftwick, I started writing a 583 00:33:02,653 --> 00:33:07,509 book called Do what Moves you, and I interviewed Bill Walton 584 00:33:07,589 --> 00:33:13,359 and Justin Wilson, the Indy 500 race car driver. 585 00:33:13,359 --> 00:33:16,213 Unfortunately, both of them have passed since then. 586 00:33:16,213 --> 00:33:18,931 I interviewed Camila Villegas. 587 00:33:18,931 --> 00:33:22,834 I had a plan, I started writing that book and then I got 588 00:33:22,973 --> 00:33:23,675 fearful of it. 589 00:33:23,675 --> 00:33:27,433 So I think that's once you go back to failure. 590 00:33:27,433 --> 00:33:31,872 It touches fear somewhere, and courage feels a lot like fear 591 00:33:32,153 --> 00:33:32,855 when you're in it. 592 00:33:32,855 --> 00:33:39,508 Fear somewhere and courage feels a lot like fear when 593 00:33:39,528 --> 00:33:39,768 you're in it. 594 00:33:39,768 --> 00:33:40,951 And I talked myself out of writing that book because I 595 00:33:40,971 --> 00:33:42,233 thought who wants to hear my story? 596 00:33:42,233 --> 00:33:43,877 Or who? 597 00:33:43,877 --> 00:33:45,801 How ego would I be? 598 00:33:45,801 --> 00:33:48,509 What kind of ego is driving me to write a book? 599 00:33:48,509 --> 00:33:50,412 And these are self-talk. 600 00:33:50,412 --> 00:33:53,096 This is self-talk that I have tried to learn to manage. 601 00:33:54,157 --> 00:33:59,012 So in 2024, january of 2024, I set a goal I want to do one 602 00:33:59,053 --> 00:34:03,852 thing every day that scares me, and I started looking for things 603 00:34:03,852 --> 00:34:05,336 that I was uncomfortable with. 604 00:34:05,336 --> 00:34:11,172 And when you're uncomfortable, you are at the edge of your 605 00:34:11,313 --> 00:34:13,797 known universe or you wouldn't be uncomfortable. 606 00:34:13,797 --> 00:34:18,693 These are signals that are saying I'm exploring, I'm not 607 00:34:18,753 --> 00:34:20,077 prepared for this, or am I? 608 00:34:20,077 --> 00:34:21,371 I'm scared, I have a fear. 609 00:34:21,371 --> 00:34:26,688 All these signals teach me where my boundaries are, so I'm 610 00:34:26,909 --> 00:34:28,454 comfortable right behind. 611 00:34:28,454 --> 00:34:30,753 I can get there to the edge of my boundary really easy 612 00:34:31,485 --> 00:34:31,907 Landscape. 613 00:34:31,907 --> 00:34:33,592 I know I'm gonna to go right up to the edge. 614 00:34:33,592 --> 00:34:38,990 Well, I'm starting to test all my boundaries and one of those 615 00:34:39,050 --> 00:34:42,831 things was I stopped writing a book that I've been encouraged 616 00:34:42,871 --> 00:34:45,007 to write, that I have. 617 00:34:45,007 --> 00:34:50,452 It would be a gift to do it and a challenge at the same time, 618 00:34:50,545 --> 00:34:53,525 and I've never written a book successfully or released it, so 619 00:34:53,545 --> 00:34:54,628 I'm uncomfortable with that. 620 00:34:54,628 --> 00:34:57,596 Well then, gosh, darn it, I'm going to do it. 621 00:34:57,795 --> 00:35:01,494 You know, I'm in the about halfway through writing a book 622 00:35:01,534 --> 00:35:02,518 called um. 623 00:35:02,518 --> 00:35:05,831 It's basically about parallel entrepreneurship, about the art 624 00:35:05,911 --> 00:35:09,083 of paralleling and what are the superpowers that you can 625 00:35:09,123 --> 00:35:10,086 leverage and what? 626 00:35:10,086 --> 00:35:13,956 How do you find synergies across businesses, across 627 00:35:14,036 --> 00:35:15,806 organizations, across markets? 628 00:35:15,806 --> 00:35:18,411 Why do I not own 10 companies? 629 00:35:18,411 --> 00:35:20,153 Why shouldn't I? 630 00:35:20,153 --> 00:35:24,934 There's a lot of public speak and self-talk about why people 631 00:35:24,994 --> 00:35:27,405 shouldn't be doing those things and, as a matter of fact, most 632 00:35:27,465 --> 00:35:31,255 of the business books out there will tell your listener focus, 633 00:35:31,275 --> 00:35:31,996 focus, focus. 634 00:35:31,996 --> 00:35:36,592 You know, and that's great for an employee, that might not be 635 00:35:36,632 --> 00:35:37,757 great for the entrepreneur. 636 00:35:37,757 --> 00:35:41,869 That might not be enough creativity and enough insight 637 00:35:41,949 --> 00:35:44,795 that they can pull from multiple different places. 638 00:35:44,795 --> 00:35:46,559 So, yes, I'm writing a book. 639 00:35:46,559 --> 00:35:56,255 I'm anxious to see how well I draw the stories of people who 640 00:35:56,355 --> 00:35:59,699 are parallel entrepreneurs and whom I admire and who have 641 00:35:59,739 --> 00:36:01,320 coached me and taught me along the way. 642 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:06,693 I'm eager to find out how well I can tell their stories and 643 00:36:07,114 --> 00:36:09,298 weave that in with my own lived experience. 644 00:36:10,445 --> 00:36:12,672 Speaker 1: Let's unpack the term parallel entrepreneur for just 645 00:36:12,713 --> 00:36:15,447 a second too, because it's different than a serial 646 00:36:15,487 --> 00:36:16,329 entrepreneur, isn't it? 647 00:36:17,972 --> 00:36:21,985 Speaker 2: I think that as we study this issue, there's been 648 00:36:22,025 --> 00:36:26,791 some studies about multi-preneurship or it's called 649 00:36:26,791 --> 00:36:30,876 different things, including including portfolio entrepreneur 650 00:36:30,876 --> 00:36:30,876 . 651 00:36:30,876 --> 00:36:35,181 It looks like a private equity model. 652 00:36:35,181 --> 00:36:40,170 It is, in fact, typically and one of my you asked me a 653 00:36:40,210 --> 00:36:41,891 question how do I decide to move forward? 654 00:36:41,891 --> 00:36:45,487 Well, I want to know if I can build an organization around 655 00:36:45,527 --> 00:36:45,990 this idea. 656 00:36:45,990 --> 00:36:47,465 Can I build an organization? 657 00:36:47,465 --> 00:36:49,452 Because if I can, I can get that going. 658 00:36:49,452 --> 00:36:50,295 Then it can grow. 659 00:36:50,295 --> 00:36:54,867 It's like the seed that creates the child, that creates the 660 00:36:55,068 --> 00:36:57,916 adolescent, that creates the adult business. 661 00:36:57,916 --> 00:37:01,956 Can you create an organization around this concept? 662 00:37:01,956 --> 00:37:03,190 What does the market look like? 663 00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:10,025 And if you do that once, why can't you do it twice? 664 00:37:10,025 --> 00:37:11,490 So a lot of people will do it once. 665 00:37:11,490 --> 00:37:14,574 They'll pour all their energy into it, they'll invest their 666 00:37:14,655 --> 00:37:17,324 identity in it to the point where they can't even separate 667 00:37:17,445 --> 00:37:20,331 their identity from the business and it becomes more difficult 668 00:37:20,371 --> 00:37:21,112 to be objective. 669 00:37:22,615 --> 00:37:26,130 And if you start a second one, you've got another company at a 670 00:37:26,190 --> 00:37:27,893 different state of being. 671 00:37:27,893 --> 00:37:29,717 It's your, you know. 672 00:37:29,717 --> 00:37:32,472 You got a four-year-old child and a brand new baby, a 673 00:37:32,594 --> 00:37:33,295 different state. 674 00:37:33,295 --> 00:37:38,728 So it forces you to be better at all those things and it's 675 00:37:38,748 --> 00:37:39,452 also joyful. 676 00:37:39,452 --> 00:37:45,476 So parallel entrepreneurship to me is first aligning who you 677 00:37:45,657 --> 00:37:45,757 are. 678 00:37:45,757 --> 00:37:48,753 If you're an accountant, and you're a good accountant and it 679 00:37:48,793 --> 00:37:52,309 makes you happy, then be an accountant and track numbers and 680 00:37:52,309 --> 00:37:53,572 do things really well, like that. 681 00:37:53,572 --> 00:37:56,978 If you're an entrepreneur, go start something, create 682 00:37:57,018 --> 00:38:01,989 something, build something and then when you sell that company 683 00:38:02,010 --> 00:38:03,856 you'll start at another one because you're good at it. 684 00:38:03,856 --> 00:38:06,172 Now you're a serial entrepreneur and that's pretty 685 00:38:06,273 --> 00:38:07,277 obvious and for me. 686 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,288 I know most of my friends call themselves serial entrepreneurs 687 00:38:11,648 --> 00:38:15,775 but when you dig deeper, no, they're actually parallel 688 00:38:15,896 --> 00:38:16,476 entrepreneurs. 689 00:38:16,476 --> 00:38:22,909 They're paralleling, and paralleling is living and being 690 00:38:23,469 --> 00:38:28,675 your aligned self, who you are, and matching up what you do 691 00:38:28,936 --> 00:38:33,882 outside yourself, in your world, with alignment. 692 00:38:33,882 --> 00:38:38,449 And I can run three companies that are aligned with my 693 00:38:38,811 --> 00:38:42,510 identity and with my skill sets and then I can go hire the who, 694 00:38:43,373 --> 00:38:43,914 not the how. 695 00:38:43,914 --> 00:38:46,469 I can hire the who, that can go , do all the things that those 696 00:38:46,510 --> 00:38:48,831 businesses require that make them unique and special. 697 00:38:48,831 --> 00:38:54,956 And I can parachute in and contribute in my superpowers in 698 00:38:55,016 --> 00:38:58,909 business A and then withdraw, which is a signal of trust. 699 00:38:58,909 --> 00:39:04,585 And I can go pay attention to business B and deal with its 700 00:39:04,925 --> 00:39:07,592 unique moments, with my superpowers, whatever they are, 701 00:39:08,313 --> 00:39:10,925 and encourage other people to do the same. 702 00:39:11,547 --> 00:39:14,775 And I think parallel entrepreneurship the younger you 703 00:39:14,775 --> 00:39:17,974 are, the more likely you are to be a parallel entrepreneur. 704 00:39:17,974 --> 00:39:25,744 The reality is, I'm executing a market research project, an 705 00:39:25,846 --> 00:39:29,362 actual academic research project , to take some old research on 706 00:39:29,382 --> 00:39:33,117 this topic that might have left some unanswered questions, to 707 00:39:33,137 --> 00:39:37,489 try to extend and figure out what does that look like in 2025 708 00:39:37,489 --> 00:39:38,030 now? 709 00:39:38,030 --> 00:39:42,907 And to try to characterize and and document for the purposes of 710 00:39:42,907 --> 00:39:48,880 the book um and some formal research about how is parallel 711 00:39:49,041 --> 00:39:53,835 entrepreneurship actually better than or at least correct for me 712 00:39:53,835 --> 00:39:53,835 ? 713 00:39:53,835 --> 00:39:59,710 But it's an identity that is not well understood and yet it 714 00:39:59,831 --> 00:40:01,554 exists everywhere you look. 715 00:40:02,795 --> 00:40:04,298 Speaker 1: I can't find a flaw in that. 716 00:40:04,298 --> 00:40:08,552 I also want to add to it as a business model. 717 00:40:08,552 --> 00:40:11,378 It exists under different names already too. 718 00:40:11,378 --> 00:40:13,231 We might call it vertical integration. 719 00:40:13,231 --> 00:40:22,166 There might be a conglomerate of we make tires, so we need to 720 00:40:22,188 --> 00:40:23,530 have a rubber tree plant or a rubber plant farm. 721 00:40:23,530 --> 00:40:24,771 I'm sorry and okay now that we've got the farm. 722 00:40:24,771 --> 00:40:29,206 Now we need transportation and fertilizer. 723 00:40:29,206 --> 00:40:31,789 So let's start a private fleet company and let's start a 724 00:40:31,829 --> 00:40:32,710 fertilizer company. 725 00:40:32,710 --> 00:40:36,237 And when an entity does that, we just call it vertical 726 00:40:36,257 --> 00:40:37,438 integration or something else. 727 00:40:37,438 --> 00:40:37,820 And fertilizer. 728 00:40:37,820 --> 00:40:38,981 So let's start a private fleet company and let's start a 729 00:40:39,001 --> 00:40:40,262 fertilizer company, and when an entity does that, we just call 730 00:40:40,282 --> 00:40:41,204 it vertical integration or something else. 731 00:40:45,864 --> 00:40:46,606 I think the term is kiruetsu. 732 00:40:46,606 --> 00:40:47,869 It's a Japanese term where roughly the same idea. 733 00:40:47,869 --> 00:40:49,052 The Sumitomo company is a good example of this. 734 00:40:49,052 --> 00:40:52,358 The Sumitomo family, hundreds and hundreds of years ago, 735 00:40:52,628 --> 00:40:55,268 started all these adjacent businesses to support their 736 00:40:55,349 --> 00:40:58,596 other business and then eventually the Japanese 737 00:40:58,637 --> 00:41:01,090 government had to intervene because there was like six 738 00:41:01,130 --> 00:41:03,215 families running every industry in the country. 739 00:41:03,215 --> 00:41:07,052 And so when we think of it from the industry lens, everybody 740 00:41:07,112 --> 00:41:08,945 can get on board with it and say that's cool. 741 00:41:08,945 --> 00:41:11,570 It makes a ton of financial sense's good for the customer, 742 00:41:11,630 --> 00:41:15,476 it's good for the entity, but then when a person tries to do 743 00:41:15,536 --> 00:41:37,277 that and build their own entity or entities around, themselves 744 00:41:37,318 --> 00:41:41,860 it's somehow frowned upon, but the individual's pursuit of 745 00:41:41,942 --> 00:41:46,967 parallel entrepreneurship, it is countercultural. 746 00:41:47,007 --> 00:41:47,648 Yeah, for sure. 747 00:41:48,150 --> 00:41:49,211 Speaker 2: I think so, and we also. 748 00:41:49,211 --> 00:41:53,880 I've done a hundred interviews of parallel entrepreneurs and 749 00:41:54,706 --> 00:42:00,556 pushed through to discover how many of them are diagnosed with 750 00:42:00,795 --> 00:42:04,025 ADD or ADHD whatever the term might be today. 751 00:42:04,025 --> 00:42:04,827 That's appropriate. 752 00:42:04,827 --> 00:42:09,096 But, yeah, self-diagnosed sort of. 753 00:42:09,096 --> 00:42:13,641 Maybe I've got ADD, but some of them absolutely do have. 754 00:42:13,641 --> 00:42:14,784 We're going to look into that. 755 00:42:14,784 --> 00:42:18,931 We're also going to look into whether you see dyslexia and 756 00:42:19,193 --> 00:42:26,311 other types of what society might suggest contributes to you 757 00:42:26,311 --> 00:42:28,576 being unemployable for some reason. 758 00:42:28,576 --> 00:42:31,309 So therefore, you become an entrepreneur, which is another 759 00:42:31,369 --> 00:42:31,670 myth. 760 00:42:40,344 --> 00:42:44,711 But I think there is some truth to overcoming challenges as a 761 00:42:44,731 --> 00:42:48,717 natural way of being, that an entrepreneur just is and it's 762 00:42:48,777 --> 00:42:50,260 expressing itself in business. 763 00:42:50,260 --> 00:42:55,394 And I'm concerned about this ADD thing because I was 764 00:42:55,434 --> 00:42:56,358 defensive about that. 765 00:42:56,358 --> 00:42:59,429 I had three, four companies at the same time and people, how do 766 00:42:59,429 --> 00:42:59,911 you do that? 767 00:42:59,911 --> 00:43:03,885 You must have ADD, and I'd be like, well, what would happen if 768 00:43:03,885 --> 00:43:07,347 I was just enjoying myself and I don't have to have a medical 769 00:43:07,387 --> 00:43:07,847 condition? 770 00:43:07,847 --> 00:43:17,811 So I think businesses are biologies and there are examples 771 00:43:17,811 --> 00:43:23,432 in nature of everything that a business is and should be Born, 772 00:43:24,213 --> 00:43:33,556 growing, maturing, spinning off spring, aging and dying and 773 00:43:33,617 --> 00:43:36,038 being consumed by the forest. 774 00:43:36,038 --> 00:43:43,300 Companies have to be healthy and it's okay to be a small fish 775 00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:49,342 and swim in a school, and it's okay to be a large fish. 776 00:43:49,342 --> 00:43:57,648 And wherever your company finally gets, and however your 777 00:43:57,668 --> 00:44:00,838 management style allows you to be successful, you're either a 778 00:44:00,878 --> 00:44:03,965 big fish or a little fish, or a giant fish, or you're the whale 779 00:44:04,025 --> 00:44:04,346 hunter. 780 00:44:04,346 --> 00:44:10,217 You know Every business has its place in a biological 781 00:44:10,297 --> 00:44:14,476 comparison and biologies out here are very complex ecosystems 782 00:44:14,476 --> 00:44:14,476 . 783 00:44:15,365 --> 00:44:19,648 The only thing that I have a problem with these days is, you 784 00:44:19,688 --> 00:44:22,590 know your listeners will remember when a monopoly was a 785 00:44:22,630 --> 00:44:28,472 bad thing and there was monopoly busters and your example in 786 00:44:28,492 --> 00:44:33,307 Japan, our example of Standard Oil and AT&T, the bell companies 787 00:44:33,307 --> 00:44:34,132 here in the United States. 788 00:44:34,885 --> 00:44:40,476 There's a point where dominance by one humanity is that example. 789 00:44:40,536 --> 00:44:43,889 We're dominating the planet so much that we kill competition 790 00:44:43,929 --> 00:44:48,545 and kill out ecosystems and we are mishandling the gift of this 791 00:44:48,545 --> 00:44:53,114 earth that we were given to have some form of management 792 00:44:53,195 --> 00:44:54,378 responsibility for. 793 00:44:54,378 --> 00:45:00,652 Perhaps and there is a the modern problem is a duopoly and 794 00:45:01,054 --> 00:45:05,646 duopolies, or maybe triopolies, where they all have some form of 795 00:45:05,646 --> 00:45:08,713 mutual interest in killing off innovation. 796 00:45:08,713 --> 00:45:17,164 They are the modern monopoly innovation. 797 00:45:17,164 --> 00:45:18,487 They are the modern monopoly, and I think it's up to the 798 00:45:18,507 --> 00:45:19,951 entrepreneur and to political leaders and to coaches and 799 00:45:19,971 --> 00:45:23,396 people out there trying to help each other, be successful, to 800 00:45:23,518 --> 00:45:27,530 just stay the course and be competitive and take a little 801 00:45:27,570 --> 00:45:32,186 chunk out of that beast every time you can and build companies 802 00:45:32,186 --> 00:45:35,427 that sport, car around those big brands and take little parts 803 00:45:35,427 --> 00:45:37,954 out of their flesh because you can, because they're not paying 804 00:45:37,974 --> 00:45:41,411 attention and that's yeah, I'm a piranha. 805 00:45:41,411 --> 00:45:44,217 I'm going to go out there and take a chunk out of Nike's 806 00:45:44,626 --> 00:45:47,612 manufacturing or I'm going to take a chunk out of some big 807 00:45:47,672 --> 00:45:53,391 logistics company's business and start some form of a freight 808 00:45:53,831 --> 00:45:57,599 company and be successful and have fun doing it. 809 00:45:59,201 --> 00:46:03,103 Speaker 1: What a pleasant way to go through your day and to go 810 00:46:03,103 --> 00:46:03,744 through your life. 811 00:46:03,744 --> 00:46:06,865 You've also got the advantage of age. 812 00:46:06,865 --> 00:46:09,947 You have actually seen a lot of time around a lot of people. 813 00:46:09,947 --> 00:46:25,161 You see how humans behave in large numbers and you can begin 814 00:46:25,202 --> 00:46:28,891 to predict what might happen next or what's most likely to 815 00:46:28,931 --> 00:46:34,668 happen next, and I wish that I could fast forward my own 816 00:46:34,728 --> 00:46:39,514 learnings and accumulation of knowledge to reach that point, 817 00:46:39,659 --> 00:46:42,202 and so instead, the best thing I have is to just call you and 818 00:46:42,222 --> 00:46:43,905 say hey, mark, what do you think about this? 819 00:46:43,905 --> 00:46:46,469 Because I don't want to. 820 00:46:46,469 --> 00:46:50,333 My dad would say if I made a bad mistake, he'd say well, you 821 00:46:50,353 --> 00:46:52,275 just paid a tuition fee in the school of life. 822 00:46:52,275 --> 00:47:02,635 Yeah, mistakes and um, and from their wisdom, from those who've 823 00:47:02,635 --> 00:47:05,802 gone before, and so that's part of what you've done today is 824 00:47:05,842 --> 00:47:11,219 you've shared for a lot of our listeners, um, some of those 825 00:47:11,259 --> 00:47:13,563 mistakes, but also, just like, the freedom to be yourself. 826 00:47:14,646 --> 00:47:14,786 Speaker 2: I. 827 00:47:14,786 --> 00:47:16,811 I appreciate that and I would. 828 00:47:16,811 --> 00:47:22,905 I would say yes, and I've learned that again, with pushing 829 00:47:22,905 --> 00:47:28,570 edges and out of your comfort zone, a way to stay young in 830 00:47:28,610 --> 00:47:29,592 your perspective. 831 00:47:29,592 --> 00:47:33,635 I can't control my body but I can hack it as best I can and 832 00:47:33,675 --> 00:47:37,646 try to respect myself, but along the way, a way to stay mentally 833 00:47:37,646 --> 00:47:41,173 young and agile is reverse mentorship. 834 00:47:41,173 --> 00:47:47,188 You find crazy smart young people and they're teaching me 835 00:47:48,179 --> 00:47:53,766 and the old model of a mentor helping somebody who's younger 836 00:47:53,806 --> 00:47:57,405 than them navigate through the politics of a Fortune 500 837 00:47:57,445 --> 00:47:58,389 company and all that. 838 00:47:58,389 --> 00:48:03,481 The reality is reverse mentorship is more valuable and 839 00:48:04,163 --> 00:48:08,123 it keeps me sharp so that when I get a chance to contribute to 840 00:48:08,182 --> 00:48:12,992 somebody's learning experience or maybe they're not listening 841 00:48:13,032 --> 00:48:15,686 and I just get to watch them make the same mistake and now I 842 00:48:15,726 --> 00:48:18,362 got to circle back around with them and talk about integrating 843 00:48:18,463 --> 00:48:19,105 with the lessons. 844 00:48:19,105 --> 00:48:22,822 I wouldn't be able to have that conversation with most young 845 00:48:22,862 --> 00:48:26,586 people if I wasn't listening to them first and trying to pay 846 00:48:26,626 --> 00:48:29,432 attention to they have a perspective about what's hot and 847 00:48:29,432 --> 00:48:33,369 what's emerging and what's not, and what is old and stodgy and 848 00:48:33,389 --> 00:48:34,411 needs to be killed off. 849 00:48:36,501 --> 00:48:41,030 I really believe that younger entrepreneurs are spectacular 850 00:48:41,329 --> 00:48:43,534 resources by themselves. 851 00:48:43,534 --> 00:48:47,389 They need to ask more questions and they need to find great 852 00:48:47,429 --> 00:48:47,931 advisors. 853 00:48:47,931 --> 00:48:49,443 And my dad taught me. 854 00:48:49,443 --> 00:48:52,190 He said if I, you know another one of those. 855 00:48:52,190 --> 00:48:56,552 If you want to be successful, pick your advisors carefully. 856 00:48:56,552 --> 00:48:59,786 And then, mark, listen to them. 857 00:48:59,786 --> 00:49:03,405 Right, because I could pick my advisors. 858 00:49:03,405 --> 00:49:04,228 And now that's great. 859 00:49:04,228 --> 00:49:07,309 You just validated something, because humans want validation. 860 00:49:07,309 --> 00:49:08,900 I'd like to be challenged. 861 00:49:08,900 --> 00:49:15,280 I'd like to sort of grab that bread and knead that dough and 862 00:49:15,481 --> 00:49:19,822 make something like a souffle out of it, but I want to do it 863 00:49:19,902 --> 00:49:23,391 with other people and then enjoy the meal. 864 00:49:25,061 --> 00:49:26,423 Speaker 1: That's a great metaphor. 865 00:49:26,443 --> 00:49:29,793 Speaker 2: It makes me hungry Last question. 866 00:49:31,001 --> 00:49:31,844 Speaker 1: It is breakfast time. 867 00:49:31,844 --> 00:49:36,123 Last question, because you spend so much time around other 868 00:49:36,184 --> 00:49:38,827 entrepreneurs and you know, obviously, what I do with the 869 00:49:38,887 --> 00:49:42,514 podcast here, but also with Ballast, this group of supply 870 00:49:42,534 --> 00:49:44,681 chain entrepreneurs that get together and help each other 871 00:49:44,782 --> 00:49:48,751 every month, and this network of folks that want to see each 872 00:49:48,811 --> 00:49:49,233 other win. 873 00:49:49,233 --> 00:49:55,009 As somebody who's gone through multiple startups and exits, 874 00:49:56,231 --> 00:50:00,463 what is a piece of advice that somebody, a founder who wants to 875 00:50:00,463 --> 00:50:04,532 sell their business in two to five years, for example? 876 00:50:04,532 --> 00:50:08,885 What should they be thinking about that they're not as they 877 00:50:11,108 --> 00:50:16,036 begin to plan for optimizing for their own exit? 878 00:50:19,420 --> 00:50:23,126 Speaker 2: I think that the first rule should be pay 879 00:50:23,166 --> 00:50:27,253 attention to your finances and know your books and actually 880 00:50:27,333 --> 00:50:27,894 know your numbers. 881 00:50:27,894 --> 00:50:31,329 That's the heartbeat of, and the blood supply of the business 882 00:50:31,329 --> 00:50:36,371 , so be financially aware. 883 00:50:36,371 --> 00:50:42,367 Second, get on accrual accounting and be an actual 884 00:50:42,407 --> 00:50:45,213 accrual accounting company, no matter what, every single time 885 00:50:45,253 --> 00:50:48,085 you do, because if you don't, when you sell your company 886 00:50:48,106 --> 00:50:50,371 you're going to be transitioning to accrual. 887 00:50:50,371 --> 00:50:55,989 You might as well get busy with it and be accrual, particularly 888 00:50:55,989 --> 00:50:57,873 if you have meaningful revenues . 889 00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:02,402 Speaker 1: And that takes a couple of years to set a 890 00:51:02,442 --> 00:51:03,003 baseline for. 891 00:51:03,003 --> 00:51:07,427 If you're doing cash accounting now, mid-2025, you're going to 892 00:51:07,467 --> 00:51:12,434 want to have all of 2026 under accrual and all of 2027 so you 893 00:51:12,454 --> 00:51:14,737 can show a year-over-year comp using the same method. 894 00:51:14,737 --> 00:51:19,329 That's part of why I asked the question of years in advance. 895 00:51:19,871 --> 00:51:23,628 Speaker 2: Yeah, because otherwise it's a lot of research 896 00:51:23,628 --> 00:51:27,451 and in the M&A process, which I spend most of my time in today, 897 00:51:27,451 --> 00:51:31,891 it's a part of due diligence where deals go to die. 898 00:51:31,891 --> 00:51:38,525 So I think the second piece of advice I actually heard this on 899 00:51:39,065 --> 00:51:41,452 yesterday's Parallel Entrepreneur Network meeting. 900 00:51:41,452 --> 00:51:49,206 One of the members chose a growth strategy A and B and one 901 00:51:49,266 --> 00:51:54,032 of them was got an M&A advisor and we're actively looking for 902 00:51:54,634 --> 00:51:58,268 what is it that we're creating that is valuable to an acquirer? 903 00:51:58,268 --> 00:52:03,802 What is it that we're creating that we could lean into and 904 00:52:04,043 --> 00:52:06,431 shape our message and shape our company? 905 00:52:06,431 --> 00:52:12,568 And that market's a different market that will teach you 906 00:52:12,648 --> 00:52:14,452 something specific about your business. 907 00:52:14,452 --> 00:52:19,331 And then, separately, they pivoted from enterprise to SMBs. 908 00:52:19,331 --> 00:52:22,902 They started at SMB, they went up to enterprise Enterprise 909 00:52:22,942 --> 00:52:26,726 market's tough right now and to maintain their organization 910 00:52:26,746 --> 00:52:29,311 they're going to pivot back down to SMBs where they now have 911 00:52:29,380 --> 00:52:32,329 much more muscle and much more skill than they had last time. 912 00:52:32,329 --> 00:52:33,271 So they're going to crush it. 913 00:52:33,271 --> 00:52:37,108 Well, that SMB market's going to give you different feedback 914 00:52:37,128 --> 00:52:38,311 than the enterprise market did. 915 00:52:39,221 --> 00:52:41,728 I'm expecting both those strategies will be successful, 916 00:52:42,291 --> 00:52:47,543 but I don't think very many entrepreneurs actually build a 917 00:52:47,603 --> 00:52:53,112 three to five year plan with the correct advice and actually 918 00:52:53,253 --> 00:52:58,447 begin to pursue an exit long, long, long long before they get 919 00:52:58,487 --> 00:52:59,710 frustrated with the business. 920 00:52:59,710 --> 00:53:03,547 They're can't find a father founder transition, kind of an 921 00:53:03,628 --> 00:53:04,731 internal family thing. 922 00:53:04,731 --> 00:53:07,268 They're afraid their kids are going to wreck the business, 923 00:53:07,380 --> 00:53:08,045 whatever it is. 924 00:53:08,045 --> 00:53:12,507 Usually that decision to sell comes when the market's pivoted 925 00:53:12,599 --> 00:53:15,820 and you now got to get out, or you don't have enough resources 926 00:53:16,021 --> 00:53:17,005 to go to the next level. 927 00:53:17,005 --> 00:53:20,121 Well, you should know you don't have enough resources to go to 928 00:53:20,141 --> 00:53:22,802 the next level three years before you're actually in that 929 00:53:22,842 --> 00:53:23,443 situation. 930 00:53:23,443 --> 00:53:26,367 So plan for it Brilliant, mark. 931 00:53:26,708 --> 00:53:29,393 Speaker 1: thank you for the wide ranging conversation. 932 00:53:29,393 --> 00:53:32,123 I wish we had more time, because we could do this for a 933 00:53:32,204 --> 00:53:33,027 whole other hour. 934 00:53:33,027 --> 00:53:35,132 We can't, unfortunately, but. 935 00:53:35,561 --> 00:53:36,661 Speaker 2: I enjoyed every second. 936 00:53:37,322 --> 00:53:39,286 Speaker 1: If folks want to connect with you, where can they 937 00:53:39,286 --> 00:53:39,686 find you? 938 00:53:39,686 --> 00:53:40,788 Connect with you where can they find you? 939 00:53:40,809 --> 00:53:43,893 Speaker 2: I'm available at theparallelentrepreneurcom, 940 00:53:55,141 --> 00:53:57,085 markaclevelandcom and I guess LinkedIn is the place where I 941 00:53:57,105 --> 00:54:00,771 spend my most energy communicating and maintaining 942 00:54:00,791 --> 00:54:01,092 conversations. 943 00:54:01,092 --> 00:54:03,757 But I got to tell you before you let me off the hook here. 944 00:54:03,757 --> 00:54:06,387 I want to tell you that one of the greatest experiences I've 945 00:54:06,427 --> 00:54:09,974 had over the last year is being a part of Ballast and watching 946 00:54:10,036 --> 00:54:17,202 and observing mid to small, new and old logistics players, from 947 00:54:17,262 --> 00:54:22,907 software to broker to trucking operations like dig in, roll up 948 00:54:22,947 --> 00:54:26,326 their sleeves and help each other, and it's a completely 949 00:54:26,385 --> 00:54:29,393 astonishing thing to watch at scale like that. 950 00:54:29,393 --> 00:54:32,161 So hats off to you for pulling that off, nate. 951 00:54:32,784 --> 00:54:33,125 Speaker 1: Thank you. 952 00:54:33,125 --> 00:54:37,195 That's my superpower is bringing people together and um 953 00:54:38,298 --> 00:54:40,664 you created the environment disarming them, getting getting 954 00:54:40,704 --> 00:54:42,349 folks to be honest and open up. 955 00:54:42,389 --> 00:54:45,103 And that's part of why I learned that doing this podcast, that 956 00:54:45,125 --> 00:54:46,728 that was one of my superpowers. 957 00:54:46,728 --> 00:54:49,273 When people would say to me afterwards I can't believe, I 958 00:54:49,313 --> 00:54:52,527 told you that I didn't mean to share that and I did. 959 00:54:52,527 --> 00:54:57,666 And that was when I realized I have built a trust vault of 960 00:54:59,789 --> 00:55:03,672 relationship management and doing what I say I was going to 961 00:55:03,713 --> 00:55:03,873 do. 962 00:55:03,873 --> 00:55:08,204 And, yes, sometimes that costs opportunities, but I sleep 963 00:55:08,264 --> 00:55:10,230 really well at night and I get to have lots of friends 964 00:55:10,309 --> 00:55:14,407 everywhere I go and by that definition, I'm very, very 965 00:55:14,467 --> 00:55:15,769 successful and I'm very happy. 966 00:55:15,769 --> 00:55:17,994 So on that note, Mark. 967 00:55:19,023 --> 00:55:20,467 Speaker 2: It shows your higher self. 968 00:55:20,467 --> 00:55:21,771 Looks good on you, nate. 969 00:55:22,219 --> 00:55:25,027 Speaker 1: Ooh, well said, I'm going to put that on a hat. 970 00:55:25,027 --> 00:55:28,983 Thank you, mark, and of course we're always rooting for you. 971 00:55:28,983 --> 00:55:30,427 I appreciate that. 972 00:55:30,427 --> 00:55:32,271 Take care, my friend, you too. 973 00:55:32,271 --> 00:55:36,728 Thanks for listening to another episode of the Bootstrapper's 974 00:55:36,789 --> 00:55:39,360 Guide to Logistics, and a special thank you to our 975 00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,385 sponsors and the team behind the scenes who make it all possible 976 00:55:42,385 --> 00:55:42,385 . 977 00:55:42,385 --> 00:55:45,867 Be sure to like, follow or subscribe to the podcast to get 978 00:55:45,887 --> 00:55:46,668 the latest updates. 979 00:55:46,668 --> 00:55:49,733 To learn more about the show and connect with the growing 980 00:55:49,773 --> 00:55:52,856 community of entrepreneurs, visit logisticsfounderscom. 981 00:55:52,856 --> 00:56:01,365 And, of course, thank you to all the founders who trust us to 982 00:56:01,365 --> 00:56:01,766 share their stories.