SPEAKER_01: Hello, and welcome to the Bootstrapper's Guide to Logistics, the podcast highlighting founders doing it the way that doesn't get a lot of attention.
SPEAKER_01: We're here to change that by sharing their stories and inspiring others to take the lead.
SPEAKER_01: It's a roller coaster ride that you might ultimately build.
SPEAKER_01: That's when I kind of knew I was on to something.
SPEAKER_01: It works very hard.
SPEAKER_01: It truly is building a legacy of the state.
SPEAKER_02: The more life you live, the more wisdom you have.
SPEAKER_02: Because we are where we're supposed to be and answering the call.
SPEAKER_01: Don't shoulder entrepreneurship on your own.
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, H2.
SPEAKER_01: Let's build something together from the ground up.
SPEAKER_01: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Bootstrapper's Guide to Logistics.
SPEAKER_01: Um, like I've been saying recently, we're still doing right now what we've been doing for years now.
SPEAKER_01: Shocking to say that it's been years, but we are telling straightforward, simple stories about not so simple things that freight founders and supply chain entrepreneurs uh have to go through to take their ideas from conception to reality.
SPEAKER_01: And then once you're in the reality, all the highs and lows that go along with that.
SPEAKER_01: And there's nothing flashy about that, it is just actual people doing good work.
SPEAKER_01: And it has been for me one of the great joys of my professional life to just get to feature people that otherwise don't get a ton of attention because they're too busy working to um go out and market their businesses and and do things like that.
SPEAKER_01: And so if you've been listening for all of that time, I want to say thank you.
SPEAKER_01: And if this is the first time you're hearing the show, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01: Um you've missed about 110 great stories.
SPEAKER_01: So you've got a library of um inspiration and education you can uh go back to if you are so inclined and if you're on the fence about maybe taking the leap.
SPEAKER_01: I'm excited today that you're gonna get to hear from somebody who is early in their journey and is maybe gonna be able to give you some insights on what the early stages of starting a company is actually like.
SPEAKER_01: So that's a long intro, longer than usual.
SPEAKER_01: I've had too much coffee this morning, but I would like to welcome our guest today, Ben Shurgey, who is the founder of Science of Sales and the co-founder of Bachaulers.
SPEAKER_01: Ben, good morning.
SPEAKER_01: How are you today?
SPEAKER_02: Good morning.
SPEAKER_02: I am doing well.
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me on, Nate.
SPEAKER_02: I'm really uh really excited to chat with you.
SPEAKER_01: Well, you and I first met, I think at a conference, I'm gonna guess three years ago, and kind of instantly hit it off.
SPEAKER_01: Um, this was kind of in the middle of the COVID um freight boom and also uh a major rise in social media activity, in logistics in particular.
SPEAKER_01: And you stand out in my mind.
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you get asked these kinds of questions all the time, but you stand out to me as one of the key people that seized the moment between those two events happening um and carved out a space for you in a big industry that you're now one of the most, in my opinion, memorable and recognizable people that has done a lot of fun stuff.
SPEAKER_01: Um so can for those who aren't aware, can you explain what that what I what I just what I just said?
SPEAKER_01: What did that all mean?
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's it.
SPEAKER_02: No, it's it's really funny you put it that way.
SPEAKER_02: I and you know, like prior to doing any content or like doing anything on social media, LinkedIn or Twitter or anything, or it was it was Twitter back then, um, you know, like I would log on to LinkedIn every once in a while, and there were people that I would kind of follow, and I was like definitely a LinkedIn lurker and like Charlie at CS recruiting, like was always like, wow, like and she's doing some awesome content, and it was like, you know, it seems like she's killing it, but like there just wasn't like maybe like pre-2020, it seems like there really wasn't content out there, right?
SPEAKER_02: Especially in logistics, like LinkedIn, it just wasn't really a thing.
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then you know, I started to like Steam Logistics started to do a lot of posting, and it was like kind of caught my attention too.
SPEAKER_02: That was maybe like I'm thinking early 2020 is when I remember seeing Steam Logistics stuff all the time.
SPEAKER_02: Um and uh I was kind of like, you know, I really want to.
SPEAKER_02: It's social, I didn't know anything about social media, and I was never really good at it or put much energy into it.
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I'm gonna give it a shot and just start doing crazy stuff.
SPEAKER_02: And I started posting first, it was just text, and then it became eventually somehow snowballed into freight music video parodies.
SPEAKER_02: I don't know how, but yeah, like partially it was like, you know, it was such a wild time era in freight.
SPEAKER_02: Uh everything there were there were good vibes all around.
SPEAKER_02: It was like, hey, why not do a freight music video parody?
SPEAKER_02: And also my bosses at the time didn't care because we were doing so well as a company.
SPEAKER_02: It was like, okay, Ben's over here doing some weird stuff, but like we're doing great, so who cares?
SPEAKER_02: You know.
SPEAKER_01: Um, what uh maybe it doesn't get recognized by others, but I'm but does get recognized by me.
SPEAKER_01: I'm a musician myself.
SPEAKER_01: What you were doing is very fun and irreverent.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was kind of a laughter, uh created a lot of laughter and and positivity in kind of some challenging times.
SPEAKER_01: So that was kind of like the first layer of oh, this is interesting.
SPEAKER_01: Logistics has kind of been boring as an industry for a very long time, and now there's some liveliness to it.
SPEAKER_01: But behind that, there is genuine talent.
SPEAKER_01: You are actually a gifted musician, and the way that you went about um writing this, a lot of these parody songs, is very intelligent.
SPEAKER_01: And I what I love, my one of my favorite comedians is Conan O'Brien, and he goes, My goal is to be at the intersection of really smart and really dumb.
SPEAKER_01: Um he straddles that line perfectly.
SPEAKER_01: And you straddle this line between really intelligent and really approachable at the same time in the content that you created.
SPEAKER_01: And so if you haven't heard that before, I just want to pour that into you that it was it's not just silly goofy stuff.
SPEAKER_01: There is some genuine um talent and craft behind it.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that that means a lot.
SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Nate.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I I put a lot of energy into it for a period of time where I I don't know, it was like just an awesome creative outlet where I was like, wow, I get to do something and then share this with people who get all the inside jokes of logistics.
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, you know, this super fun thing, as opposed to like before, you know, just like creating music or different.
SPEAKER_02: I do like different short film competitions with my wife.
SPEAKER_02: My wife's a filmmaker, so we do lots of creative projects together.
SPEAKER_02: And usually, you know, you do something, you go to a film festival, and there's like five or ten other people sitting around, and it's like, yay, you're all patting each other on the back, and it's great.
SPEAKER_02: But doing something, you know, that there's at least, you know, at the time, and there still isn't enough logistics content out there.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, a lot of there's a lot of podcasts out there, but a lot is kind of a relative term.
SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, there's still not enough for you know the how much um how much business is out there, how much logistics news is out there.
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I don't know, a long way to say.
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
SPEAKER_02: It was really just there was something about that time period of like 2020 to 2023 of just like needing some sort of weird creative outlet with everything going on, and and it was it was fun.
SPEAKER_01: I've also not heard anybody describe it quite that way.
SPEAKER_01: It was an era.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this podcast itself came out of that same era.
SPEAKER_01: Maybe if this industry ever got big enough and mattered um in the same way that they do music documentaries of the 60s or 70s, and then like, and then the mood in the country changed, and suddenly the the music shifted in this direction, and all of a sudden there's drums and you know electronics, and it signaled the end of the folk era.
SPEAKER_01: I think you're onto something there.
SPEAKER_01: There it was such a potent period of time in the world, people stuck at home and hobbies skyrocketed, and obviously the the transportation industry was booming during that period, and that air that era does seem to have changed.
SPEAKER_01: Um there is still tons of room for more content creators.
SPEAKER_01: If I go to LinkedIn, I'm genuine generally seeing the same 20 people every day, and that's right.
SPEAKER_01: Uh because I I think I read a stat that said 99% of people on LinkedIn never create any content of any kind.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like they might post once a year, but they consume the 1% content that is created, and obviously AI has changed and kind of muddied the waters.
SPEAKER_01: A lot of the content is is not as authentic or um original as it used to be.
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that has also heralded some of the end of that era.
SPEAKER_01: Would you agree?
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it feels different now for sure.
SPEAKER_02: And and algorithm changes, like there was a time there where it was just really exploding, and and like it just felt like wow, I'm discovering all these people.
SPEAKER_02: Like, I discovered you, uh your podcast.
SPEAKER_02: I was like, wow.
SPEAKER_02: And learning about all of these other, it's like, wow, I didn't realize how many people go out and start their own logistics companies.
SPEAKER_02: Even like the rise of, I think of some of the like agent influencers and like learning about the agency model.
SPEAKER_02: Whereas like when I was a W-2 rep, like for the first, I don't know, like five years, I didn't really know what an agency was or that that model existed.
SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot of W-2 brokerages try to like keep that under wraps, right?
SPEAKER_02: Like, don't don't know too, don't don't learn about that stuff.
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, you know, there was that explosion that's I think still out there of like, yeah, like these agency recruiter influencers too, which is which is fun.
SPEAKER_01: I also think that period opened up the possibility to actually be yourself and be professional at the same time.
SPEAKER_01: Before that, LinkedIn was very curated and it was more about um just job seeking, basically, and trying to present in such a way as to be attractive to recruiters or uh a potential employer.
SPEAKER_01: And those lines didn't get blurred, they totally broke open where it was no, we actually hire people, we don't hire positions.
SPEAKER_01: And there there became it became less formal.
SPEAKER_01: And maybe it's gone too far sometimes.
SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean now I'm seeing content that I'm like, that is that is not this is not the right medium for the content that I just saw.
SPEAKER_01: Um but again, that's part of the I think that era has has maybe ended.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, as I I hadn't really had some of these thoughts as conscious thoughts until this conversation, but I think you are you're definitely on to something.
SPEAKER_01: Um and then mirroring that to your own journey, you still are creating content and you're still doing all of those um creative outlets, but now you've added your own layer of the business side to it, um, not as a W-2.
SPEAKER_01: And so you have now started two companies um early in both.
SPEAKER_01: Can you I don't know how many minutes we're 10 minutes in now?
SPEAKER_02: Can you tell people what you do?
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, but honestly, that that is a fun deep dive.
SPEAKER_02: I've I mean, content LinkedIn, especially LinkedIn logistics, deep dive is is awesome.
SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, what do I do?
SPEAKER_02: That's a great question.
SPEAKER_02: I so I uh I go by the uh the mad sales scientists.
SPEAKER_02: I love, I've always loved, for whatever reason, I don't know why, I love cold outreach sales.
SPEAKER_02: Like outbound sales for me is just there's something about that.
SPEAKER_02: I find the same way I find doing freight music video parodies fun.
SPEAKER_02: I find cold outreach so fun.
SPEAKER_02: And it's like this creative, like uh this uh sort of like creative outlet.
SPEAKER_02: Um, and and it and actually, even recently, there's been an explosion of and sort of a new era of cold outreach.
SPEAKER_02: Um, so so yeah, again, back to your question, what do I do?
SPEAKER_02: I I help companies with cold outreach and get get companies leads, um, warm qualified leads.
SPEAKER_02: And it we're in this really interesting era and time where, like with AI and technology, similar to content creation, you can achieve outreach at scale, personalized outreach that looks really thoughtful, intentional, and really it's just an AI bot that's sending you an email or LinkedIn connection request, or uh, you know, or you're being called by somebody on a parallel or power dialer who's calling eight numbers at the same time.
SPEAKER_02: And it's it's it's such an interesting era of like, what do we do with this technology to go back to like to me, what I love about cold outreach and helping companies with cold outreach is focusing on the human connection aspect and how we build start that meaningful relationship.
SPEAKER_02: Yes, leveraging technology, but like also using that in a way that's behind the scenes, and that prospect doesn't feel that automation and that that they're just a number.
SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's sort of what I do in a nutshell is help people get qualified leads and do it in what I think are smart, but sometimes also a bit silly ways.
SPEAKER_01: So that's the science of sales side.
SPEAKER_01: And then you also have a new freight brokerage.
SPEAKER_01: Tell us about that.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02: Uh so uh so at the I also started a a freight brokerage called Backhaulers.
SPEAKER_02: Um, and the idea behind that is really, you know, similarly, we're also entering a new era in logistics with AI and technology where, you know, there's things like Happy Robot or um all these different this different technology that can let you do more with less, right?
SPEAKER_02: And that's always the idea of I think logistics is how do we achieve scale um and with the lowest head count we possibly can.
SPEAKER_02: Um and I think a lot of brokerages for a while, it was like, okay, we're gonna hire reps right out of college, get them some basic training and throw them in there.
SPEAKER_02: Um, and you can scale that.
SPEAKER_02: And then it sort of shifted in my mind, at least, to like, okay, we're gonna do this without sourcing and hire labor overseas and help achieve that scale mostly on the operation side.
SPEAKER_02: So, okay, you can run pretty skinny on the operation side.
SPEAKER_02: And now we're sort of entering this era of like, oh, you can do that now with technology and you can really have a low head count with technology.
SPEAKER_02: But what I think is really cool, I think a lot of companies are kind of pairing the college rep model or the outsource model with technology.
SPEAKER_02: And what I think is really a cool opportunity is okay, what if we got uh, and and this is how we founded Bachaulers, like what if the four of us um who all have experience in freight brokerage and have been doing logistics for a long time were equipped with this technology?
SPEAKER_02: Like, how many shippers could we serve with the AI bot army helping us out?
SPEAKER_02: And what's been really cool to see over the last six months is like we can really, really service customers and shippers way better than somebody who's right out of college or somebody overseas, you know, with that technology behind us.
SPEAKER_02: And so that's that's sort of the idea behind it is is how far can we go?
SPEAKER_02: How how much can can we scale with that technology and and the experience that we have?
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's a cool juxtaposition juxtaposition of the name back callers referencing the early days of freight brokerage and deregulation and now this ultra modern tech stack.
SPEAKER_01: Um the advantages that you have now not having legacy technology.
SPEAKER_01: Somebody who started a freight brokerage 10 years ago maybe had to make a decision of do I want to do this on the cloud or is this an on-prem uh tech stack?
SPEAKER_01: On-prem is gone completely.
SPEAKER_01: People most people don't even know what that means anymore.
SPEAKER_01: And now you have the ability to uh multiply people um across all of the endless tasks and workflows that happen in transportation.
SPEAKER_01: Um but how do you the the the downside risks are some of that tech is still so new that we don't know how durable it is or how resilient it will be when something breaks.
SPEAKER_01: And so how do you as an innovator also still build something that you know is gonna stand up to um some shocks when something goes bump in the night?
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a that's a great question.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, and and I think um, you know, some of it is talking to people in the industry, testing on a small scale, seeing what works.
SPEAKER_02: And there's there's things like highway that it's like, okay, we know this works.
SPEAKER_02: This is this is a great process.
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, and there's there's things like, okay, you know what?
SPEAKER_02: This one's gonna be a bit of a we're we're we're testing this one out, you know, we're we might be a bit of a guinea pig for them.
SPEAKER_02: And you know, we understand that we're gonna try it out for a little bit, see how it goes.
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes some of those for us, at least on the first uh six months or so, have worked out, some haven't.
SPEAKER_02: Um, but usually our approach is test on a really small scale, see how it goes.
SPEAKER_02: What works, great, multiply, amplify that, do more of that.
SPEAKER_02: What doesn't work, okay.
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, uh we stop doing, but you part of that, it like sounds great in theory, right?
SPEAKER_02: But like, okay, but like you really have to give it your best shot.
SPEAKER_02: You really and what does that test, true test, look like to make sure that you're really testing the waters?
SPEAKER_02: Because sometimes, you know, you try something, and if you don't really give it your best shot, or you don't really try to implement it the right way, it might not work, and you're kind of, you know, you're not really giving it a fair chance.
SPEAKER_01: So now that you're you're under a year in on both businesses, what has surprised you so far about the journey?
SPEAKER_01: Whew.
SPEAKER_02: Harder than I thought it would be.
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's the short answer, right?
SPEAKER_02: Like, I I think uh, you know, maybe going into it, maybe I had a bit of an ego that I was like, I'm gonna conquer the world.
SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm so smart, you know, I have I've got all this knowledge, I'm so good.
SPEAKER_02: And what I've found like on the science of sales side, I've totally reworked the process.
SPEAKER_02: And I've started from scratch several times and like thrown out what I've done in the past, what I thought I believed was the best way, and and rebuilt like several times.
SPEAKER_02: The cool thing about bootstrapping and doing this a hundred percent myself and owning a hundred percent of science of sales is I can do that.
SPEAKER_02: And I don't have to answer to an investor saying, Hey, like I know what I sold you on a month ago, but like let me tell you, half of what I told you a month ago is just wrong.
SPEAKER_02: And I I'm pivoting into this other direction.
SPEAKER_02: And uh that's what I really like is is is just experimenting, uh, seeing what works, what doesn't, and then iterating from there.
SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, what's what's been surprising is how hard it is.
SPEAKER_02: Um and how how much how much harder it's it's been, how how fierce the competition is out there.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's so easy to for companies to spin up a business nowadays.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, creating websites, you can do a web, a pretty good website in like two minutes.
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you can lots of things, you can plug and play different SaaS uh vendors.
SPEAKER_02: Um, like I, you know, I do a lot of cold email and cold email five years ago.
SPEAKER_02: If you were great at setting up mailboxes and domains, like wow, you could do anything.
SPEAKER_02: And and if you could hit the inbox, great.
SPEAKER_02: Now there's 20 different vendors that can give you a billion Microsoft, Google, or third-party SMTP mailboxes uh in overnight.
SPEAKER_02: So it's you know, it's just changed the game of how you have to approach things.
SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, it's harder.
SPEAKER_02: And and with back haulers, I think I what I've what I've been surprised by is like doing my own bootstrapping thing while it's been really fun, it's really lonely a lot of the time.
SPEAKER_02: You know, I have nobody to share in those wins or or losses with me.
SPEAKER_02: It's just me against against the world, and that's fun, but it's also really lonely.
SPEAKER_02: Uh, the back hauler side has been way more fun than I thought it would be.
SPEAKER_02: I kind of went into it going, I've been doing logistics and brokerage a while.
SPEAKER_02: I kind of want to get out, but I find myself more and more being like, I really love logistics.
SPEAKER_02: There's something about this industry that's just so, so freaking fun.
SPEAKER_00: How did you choose your co-founders?
SPEAKER_02: So we all are friends.
SPEAKER_02: We've been friends and known each other um from Cowan days back in the day.
SPEAKER_02: Uh and you know, we uh luckily, luckily we all get along super well, know each other's strengths and weaknesses.
SPEAKER_02: We, you know, get into disagreements all the time on different directions or different, you know, ways we should go, but we all have a mutual respect for each other, and that's been really cool.
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, it's just been a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_02: And and and going backwards in time, like if I hadn't known how bad the freight market would be this year, I would have been like, you don't know what you're getting into.
SPEAKER_02: This is gonna be way harder than you think.
SPEAKER_02: I know you think you're gonna dominate, but but it's been so that's made our success this year with Bachaulers been so much sweeter because of how hard the freight market is.
SPEAKER_02: And we know like we're gonna we're gonna just knock it out of the park once the once the market rebounds in, you know, 2030 or 2035, whenever, whenever that is, you know.
SPEAKER_01: So when I think about co-founding teams, uh and you kind of hinted at this complementary skills and strengths, that's the fun part of it.
SPEAKER_01: Like, hey, I'm good at sales, you're good at ops, and you're good at finance.
SPEAKER_01: Cool, we've got this all figured out.
SPEAKER_01: Um then the other part you hinted at, though, is conflict because they're you're gonna disagree about strategy at times, or somebody's gonna feel like I'm doing more than the other person, I'm putting more time in, and my effort is worth more.
SPEAKER_01: And the the downside of having co-founders is your vision might not always align, or sometimes it can impact the relationship.
SPEAKER_01: You can start as friends, and after working together for 10 years, you're like, you know what, we're not friends anymore.
SPEAKER_01: Now we're just business partners, and that's okay.
SPEAKER_01: Uh and in the worst of situations, they there's a falling out.
SPEAKER_01: Um, did you all talk about the risks of working with friends?
SPEAKER_02: You know, I think we were too dumb and naive when we started not to really think about it.
SPEAKER_02: We were just like, yeah, let's go.
SPEAKER_02: Let's go.
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, that's I mean, that's a great point.
SPEAKER_02: It changes.
SPEAKER_02: The relationship does change and it's it's different.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's helpful because we've I guess we've known each other in a work setting.
SPEAKER_02: So we know it's not like we're going into it just as friends, yeah.
SPEAKER_02: You know, in that sense, but but it also does change when you're co-founders together.
SPEAKER_02: You know, that dynamic is different because it's like, okay, this person's not my boss or my coworker.
SPEAKER_02: No, they're my they're in it with me.
SPEAKER_02: And there's always that, you know, in the back of your mind, it's like, am I working harder than other people?
SPEAKER_02: Am I working not as hard as other people?
SPEAKER_02: Am I adding more value or less value?
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know.
SPEAKER_02: I try to just constantly recheck my ego and also recheck like my own, like, it's it's all about the business and being a team player.
SPEAKER_02: And just it's not the and the cool thing is kind of when I feel like okay, ah, I would do things a little bit differently with backhaulers.
SPEAKER_02: I would go in this direction.
SPEAKER_02: I can kind of put that energy into science of sales and be like, yeah, well, science of sales is is all 100% my vision.
SPEAKER_02: It's sort of like my, you know, solo project versus my my uh albums with the band, you know.
SPEAKER_02: I like that.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but the albums with the band are usually the best albums, you know, and it's like every because you see those other the strengths are more highlighted and the weaknesses are are kind of hid, right?
SPEAKER_02: And and that's what's been fun about batholors, I think.
SPEAKER_01: What is your typical day like then?
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so my day is I my my only rule really for my business has been I don't set an alarm anymore.
SPEAKER_02: And I just sort of start my day when I start it.
SPEAKER_02: So I don't start any, I don't have any morning meetings um uh and everything sort of starts for me, like starts for me in the afternoon, but I sort of get into the day and just go where I need to go.
SPEAKER_02: And I sort of prioritize things and then I don't know, the days sort of blend together.
SPEAKER_02: I just I don't necessarily have you know that like nine to five Monday through Friday week anymore, but every day is fun, every day is different, and I just try to stay fo hyper focused on a specific task, and then I move to the next task and hyper focus on that test.
SPEAKER_02: So it, you know, some days it's like 99% backhaulers work, some days it's you know, it's more balanced, but it's uh it's I I don't have a great answer for that, other than every day's a blur and I'm I'm figuring it out.
SPEAKER_01: I think that is a great answer.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, for this, again, the stage that you're in, it could look fundamentally different in six months.
SPEAKER_01: That's why I think the the period that you're in is so fascinating to me, because you you start with an idea and a ton of desire and then the world pushes back.
SPEAKER_01: And then it's like not so fast.
SPEAKER_01: Uh here's a problem, here's an obstacle, here's a competitor, and you have to keep overcoming that year after year after year to build something valuable and something that's meaningful.
SPEAKER_01: So when you think about uh and you're also kind of crafting a life, a lifestyle that is less nine to five and commute and prescribe what you do is prescribed for you, and you have a lot more autonomy and independence.
SPEAKER_01: That can come with a lack of discipline for some folks, but it sounds like you've managed to find a way to um time block and do other things to make that uh to still be productive in that setting.
SPEAKER_01: But when you start to think about uh more than just making a paycheck and um you know providing for your needs and such, is there any other bigger why behind some of what you do that as you quietly dream what is this gonna look like in five, ten, fifteen years that keeps you going?
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, for me, I you know, I was always dreaming about being an entrepreneur when I didn't know any better and when I was just in brokerage.
SPEAKER_02: I would listen to the Mixergy uh podcast, uh, you know, the the I forget what that one's even called.
SPEAKER_02: It's like the startup guide or something like that.
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
SPEAKER_02: Um, and uh I would always be like, oh man, I could totally do this, I could totally do this.
SPEAKER_02: But it's I I never had that confidence.
SPEAKER_02: I think for me, what it took for me to go like, okay, I need to just go out and do this and and stop thinking about it and stop dreaming about it and just do it was, you know, sort of around the times.
SPEAKER_02: I I talk about the freight music video parody stuff as like in a very positive light a lot.
SPEAKER_02: I think of like, yeah, it was this awesome creative outlet.
SPEAKER_02: But also for me, you know, I really struggled with the corporate politics and corporate structure of working at a company.
SPEAKER_02: And I found it just really like weighing on me and really it wasn't good for my soul.
SPEAKER_02: Like I knew that and I could feel that in my bones.
SPEAKER_02: And my body started to really like like was telling me some, hey, something's not right here.
SPEAKER_02: Like, you need to do something different.
SPEAKER_02: And so for me, I think as hard as this year has been, like, way harder than I thought it was gonna be, way more work than I thought it was gonna be.
SPEAKER_02: It's been so much fun and feels so much more fulfilling.
SPEAKER_02: And there's something about taking on problems or helping people and genuinely just figuring it out and building that airplane while it's you know in the air, that's just way, way too exciting not to do.
SPEAKER_02: And so I think I just I'm now kind of focused on building and creating and doing so that I can like sustain.
SPEAKER_02: This lifestyle of like just being an entrepreneur because I don't want to go.
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to go back.
SPEAKER_01: We're a non-video podcast, so listener, you can't see this, but Ben's eyes and face have been lighting up for the last 90 seconds as he's described this new environment that he is in.
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome to have found a climate almost that is better suited to you.
SPEAKER_01: Nobody can outwork you in that climate.
SPEAKER_01: Because you're not you're not competing with anybody else.
SPEAKER_01: There are no rules.
SPEAKER_01: It's whatever you get to set.
SPEAKER_01: And when you find the kind of work that is challenging and stimulating, but that you've got competency in, and you get to do it in a way that's true to who you are as a human being and with your own values.
SPEAKER_01: You say you don't work a ton in the morning, but I bet you work pretty late into the evening and you sometimes don't even know what time it is because you're so in it.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02: I I so I don't set an alarm, but sometimes, you know, sometimes I'll wake up like I woke up the other day at 2 a.m.
SPEAKER_02: and I was like, oh, I've I've got an idea.
SPEAKER_02: I got to start working.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: And it's like you just get up and you start going.
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, yeah, it's it's just this idea of I think maybe a lot of what used to weigh on me, I think, in the past in the in a corporate role was like this idea of like somebody is always watching you and looking over your shoulder.
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, are you on task?
SPEAKER_02: Are you doing what you're supposed to be doing?
SPEAKER_02: Are you at your computer when I want you to be at your computer?
SPEAKER_02: And it's, you know, when you have investors, you have clients, there is an element of that, but it is different.
SPEAKER_02: And I'm trying to structure science of sales and it's even my pricing models with clients in a way where I really take that pressure and put it all back on me and science of sales to perform.
SPEAKER_02: And I love betting on myself and taking chances with clients and doing free work or doing, hey, I'm gonna do pay per for performance because I'd rather that kind of pressure than the pressure of, hey, here's you're you're paying me this fee, and you know, I promise that I'm gonna perform for you.
SPEAKER_02: So it's been experimenting with a bit of of pricing models too, to figure out like how I can get that kind of kind of uh workflow and energy.
SPEAKER_01: But congratulations on taking the leap.
SPEAKER_01: That is usually the hardest part.
SPEAKER_01: A whole bunch of hard comes after you've taken the leap and you're finding all that stuff out now, too.
SPEAKER_01: But the the conviction and courage to leave the relative or perceived safety of the corporate nest and go off and build something.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is the most kind of American dream slash um you know rugged individualism and self-reliance, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps kind of mentality that has driven progress here for centuries.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is that's why these to me, these stories are still your story, is still inspiring to me.
SPEAKER_01: It's not so much about logistics, although I love supply chain, I love the industry.
SPEAKER_01: The stories and the uh of people risking everything and betting on themselves, um, in some cases against all logic.
SPEAKER_01: Um, it doesn't make any sense on paper, and yet you still do it.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, how can you not root for somebody going through that?
SPEAKER_01: It is so cool to me.
SPEAKER_01: So, my question to you then is I I'm inspired by your story, I'm inspired by all these stories.
SPEAKER_01: Who inspires you?
SPEAKER_01: Last question.
SPEAKER_02: That's a good one.
SPEAKER_02: You know, I think that's a great question.
SPEAKER_02: You stumped me.
SPEAKER_02: Um you know, I I'm inspired by people who genuinely do good in the world and help others, I think, and who are like very mission-driven.
SPEAKER_02: Um and when I talk to those kind of people, that really gets me excited because it's I think it's very easy to especially, you know, I do cold outreach for for different companies and and different people.
SPEAKER_02: And there's there's some companies that are are more fun to sell for uh that than others.
SPEAKER_02: And there's and and there's there's something about aligning with companies that you really believe in that is really, really fun, and leaders and people that you really believe in.
SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, what who who really inspires me?
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, people that that do good, I think people that are really honest.
SPEAKER_02: I think that was what struck me when we first had our first conversation, you know, in uh wherever it was at a conference a couple years ago, was like, wow, I can tell Nate's got this level of honesty that's really interesting.
SPEAKER_02: And I always like connecting with people that, yeah, you know, there's this level of transparency, and you kind of get beneath the BS that's that's uh that you can kind of have real conversations with, and that's that's really cool.
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01: I felt the same way.
SPEAKER_01: That that's that's part of why um we've stayed in touch all these years, is we had one small interaction, I think it was in Tennessee, in like 2021.
SPEAKER_01: And four years later, here we are, and I'm getting to share your story.
SPEAKER_01: Um because I feel the same way.
SPEAKER_01: I I too am inspired by people that um are trying to do something bigger than just make a buck.
SPEAKER_01: You have to make a buck.
SPEAKER_01: A business cannot sustain itself unless it operates at a high level of financial efficiency and adds value to its customers.
SPEAKER_01: But if that's all that it's about, then it's just soulless um chasing of money.
SPEAKER_01: And that is not appealing.
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's because when the money dries up, so will your motivation.
SPEAKER_01: And if you're gonna be in this for the long haul, you gotta love it whether you make money or not, because there are going to be periods where you don't.
SPEAKER_01: And to be able to do that in a way that's true to your values and and good for other people at the same time is a higher calling.
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm I'm glad to hear you unpack some of that.
SPEAKER_01: Um it explains part of who I knew you already were, um, but more clearly.
SPEAKER_02: There's so many interesting paradoxes of owning your own business and being an entrepreneur, like it's harder and both easier or more fun at the same time, you know?
SPEAKER_02: And it's more lonely, but also less lonely at the same time.
SPEAKER_02: And you know, all of these things that are both true and false.
SPEAKER_01: And that is going to end up being somehow the title of this episode.
SPEAKER_01: Um because, like I said, it's it's irreverent and it's intelligent.
SPEAKER_01: You've got ultra modern on one hand and uh a throwback name of backhaulers on the other, and massive technology wave that we're in, and you're choosing to focus on one-on-one relationships and you're you're finding your way.
SPEAKER_01: There's no chance that we're not going to keep rooting for you.
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm so thrilled for where you are at on your journey.
SPEAKER_01: I can't wait to find out a year from now if it if the vision is still the same or if it if there's been 14 pivots in between.
SPEAKER_01: Um, I hope you get some more sleep.
SPEAKER_01: Um I wish you tons of success, and thanks for sharing your story.
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Dave.
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening to another episode of the Bootstrapper's Guide to Logistics.
SPEAKER_01: And a special thank you to our sponsors and the team behind the scenes who make it all possible.
SPEAKER_01: Be sure to like, follow, or subscribe to the podcast to get the latest updates.
SPEAKER_01: To learn more about the show and connect with the growing community of entrepreneurs, visit logisticsfounders.com.
SPEAKER_01: And of course, thank you to all the founders who trust us to share their stories.