Navigating Grief and loss - Deanne Rhynard

Grief is a journey that many of us face, making us feel alone even though it's a common experience. This week, Deanne shares her deeply personal story of dealing with major losses: the death of her aunt, a miscarriage, her child's hospital stay, and changing jobs, all happening in just 45 days. She opens up about the unique way she found comfort through her podcast, "F'ing Up."

This episode dives into the personal nature of grief and loss, highlighting that everyone handles it differently. We talk about the moments grief catches us off guard, challenging the idea that time heals all wounds. We discuss the importance of letting those around us know how they can support us best, whether we need a good cry or someone to just be there quietly with us.

We acknowledge the deep emotions often kept hidden, the struggle to appear okay for the sake of our kids or socially, and how sharing our stories, while risky, can be freeing.

Takeaways:

• Grief is a Personal Journey: Everyone feels and deals with grief differently. It's a part of life that doesn't just disappear over time.
• Society Struggles with Grief: People often try to offer quick fixes or might avoid talking about grief. It's hard to discuss, but sharing personal stories can help.
• Listening is Key: Being there for someone, just listening, is much more helpful than trying to solve their grief for them.
• Owning Your Grief: It's okay to not be okay. Taking action, like starting a project or asking for help, can be a step towards coping.
• The Importance of Support and Boundaries: While support from friends and family is crucial, it's also necessary to communicate what you need from them.

Deanne Rhynard - Bio

Deanne Rhynard is a seasoned HR executive and startup advisor. She has an appreciation for understanding the human psyche and how that intersects with the career journey. 

Deanne hosts F'ing Up, a podcast dedicated to sharing the realities of the career journey through interviews with successful individuals, focusing on their tripping hazards along the way.

Most recently, Deanne was Chief People Officer at Performio, a fast-growing sales compensation software platform. Previously, Deanne held the role of Chief People Officer at Olo, Inc. Under her leadership, Olo grew its employee base by over 30x, and executed a successful IPO and two acquisitions. Prior to COVID, Deanne operationalized a workforce that was 65% remote, creating a unique value proposition in the tech market.

Deanne holds a Bachelor of Arts in Business from Walla Walla University. She lives in Washington State with her husband and three boys.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/deannerhynard/
https://www.finguppodcast.com/

Transcript

Navigating Grief and Loss Through Purpose

Deanne Rhynard 0:00

I don't know that you ever get over it and in fact you know the saying of time heals all wounds. How cute is that? No, time doesn't heal all wounds. It helps separate you from the wound, right, Like your memory gets foggier, you start to fill the gaping hole with other things, but like I don't know that you ever really heal yourself. You can work on healing, but yeah, I think grief and loss is always there in the background, at least in my experience.

Tim Reitsma 0:37

How do you process grief after loss? For how long is it okay to be grieving? For me, honestly, I'm still trying to figure that out as I continue to grieve some losses over the past year. Some of us cry or seek emotional support, some of us seek solitude or different types of expression, and for many, grief doesn't go away. And that's okay.

Tim Reitsma 1:01

Tim here, and thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Invisible Condition podcast, where we talk about advocacy and unusually normal things the conditions, diseases and illnesses we live with. We will end the stigma of invisible conditions by empowering voices, and today's voice is brought to us by Dianne and a quick content warning that some of the conversation may be triggering to some. Dianne experienced multiple losses within a short time. Listening to this episode will offer you a direct look into how people deal with grief and loss, highlighting the power of a shared personal story for healing. It's impactful and shows us the reality of struggle and the importance of support, making this a very useful listen to anyone facing tough times or trying to understand what others go through. Have a listen, hey Dianne. Welcome to the Invisible Condition podcast. I love that we connected through LinkedIn. Complete strangers had never met and here we are. We've had a few conversations now and we're recording, so I'm just excited to host you on the show.

Deanne Rhynard 2:08

Same. I'm the lucky one I've enjoyed your posts so much. That's what drew me to reach out to you on LinkedIn. Your vulnerability has been inspiring, so I'm humbled to be here, thank you.

Tim Reitsma 2:22

I know you've got your own podcast and I'm not gonna tell the audience about it. I'm gonna let you do that. But before we get into the content today, why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself? Sure, what motivated you to start your podcast?

Deanne Rhynard 2:36

Yeah, I am a mom, I have three boys with me at home and, yes, I have a podcast. I have a history in HR and the podcast is called Effing Up and it's about the career journey and that it's not always up and to the right. It's not an overnight success and it's discussing the real journey of successful individuals and not the 1% of successful individuals that we could only dream of being and get so lucky to achieve. That's not realistic. It's the everyday successful individuals and so asking those guests some hard, probing questions to talk about their journey and be vulnerable and share the pitfalls along the way and setting their success on the shelf, so to speak, to have those conversations and that came out of my own really trying time. Within a span of 45 days, I lost my aunt, who was a sister, mother figure, really a best friend to me. I was pregnant at the time, so really struggled to keep positive, and so I mentioned the 45 days. I ended up losing that baby at 21 weeks pregnant. Exactly a week later, my two-year-old was hospitalized and then I had a career of eight and a half years At a startup.

Deanne Rhynard 4:17

I have a history of being an HR executive that came to a close and it was really a rough road.

Deanne Rhynard 4:27

I had a hard time just being and wanted to give myself an outlet to make sure I got up and got out of bed, because I didn't really know how to make that happen and the one thing I was doing consistently was taking walks, and during those walks I'd be like, okay, what are we doing here, how are you gonna get through life? And coming up with this podcast was, I really think, the thing that saved me. It used my HR judgey background, if you will, in interviewing and gave me an opportunity to connect with people, which is really important to me, and it allows me to have really deep conversations, which, if you know me, you know that I hate small talk. I like to dive right in and get to know someone at their core. So it gave me all those things and it gave me something to check boxes and get to work on. And I mentioned, my job came to a close, so I had a little bit of time. I was fortunate to have that time, so I started building and here we are.

Tim Reitsma 5:43

Well, thanks for sharing. That's a lot to happen in a short period of time, and we're gonna be talking today about grief after loss, and that's a lot of loss, a loss in a short period of time a loss of your mother figure of miscarriage and your child being in the hospital and losing your job. And we all process grief differently, and so you alluded to a few things where you had walks consistently and you had started this project out of that, to kind of give you that purpose. When you hear about navigating grief and loss, what comes to mind?

Deanne Rhynard 6:30

Well, what comes to mind is it's a joke, if I'm completely honest, I think that everyone's looking for it's like feeling even emotional just thinking about it. Like everyone's looking for the silver bullet. How can I be okay, how can I get over it? News flash, like it just doesn't work like that. I mean, everyone's wired differently so some people can balance back super easy. Some people will struggle much longer. And so when I think about it, I just think, well, like, how ridiculous, like getting over it, I don't know that you ever get over it. And in fact, you know the saying of time heals all wounds. How cute is that? No, time doesn't heal all wounds. It helps separate you from the wound right. Like your memory gets foggier, you start to fill the gaping hole with other things, but like I don't know that you ever really heal yourself. You can work on healing, but yeah, I think grief and loss is always there in the background, at least in my experience.

Tim Reitsma 7:41

Well, I completely agree, and my mind automatically goes to all those quote unquote gurus on social media like overcome grief, overcome loss and, you know, sign up to my course for only whatever amount of money. And, yes, I think I don't think it goes away, correct? Yeah, I've talked to a few people now who've experienced loss and profound loss, and it's there, it doesn't go away. However, like you said, the time, that time in between, you know, your memory might get a little foggier, but things might come up and might trigger that emotion.

Deanne Rhynard 8:21

Oh yeah.

Tim Reitsma 8:22

And you started your podcast, and was it a way to cope with what you were going through? Was it a way of like, hey, I'm gonna stick it to the world and I'm gonna show that I've got purpose? I'm curious about it.

Deanne Rhynard 8:38

Yeah, I think it was A lot of things. I think it was I need something to occupy my time. Just frankly, you know, like I don't know what to do with myself and I have this flexibility of time, so how will I fill it? Because I know, if it's idle, like you know, I was getting out of bed but it was just sheer guilt of like what will my husband think? What will? How will my kids, you know, survive without me and what will they think of their mother if I don't show up? So the podcast was like a necessity of time filling.

Deanne Rhynard 9:28

If you will stick it to the world, I don't think it was that.

Deanne Rhynard 9:35

I do love that perspective though, like I am, like I love attention, but I love controlled attention. So it definitely wasn't stick it to the world, but I do think it was like I need to be doing something, I need to feel satisfied, and it seemed to be the only thing that kept coming to my mind that made me feel like I could handle life, if that makes sense. There was lots of tasks associated with getting it done, like I've never podcasted before, ever. So I had to figure that out right and so that gave me purpose. It was like okay, I have something I need to go out and do, and then I started recording and I had to start finding guests and I had to network and it just, it just kept me busy. It maybe not think about all the other things I mean, I was thinking about the other things, don't get me wrong but it just, I think, helped replace, filled the gaps. I don't even know how to articulate it, but yeah, I would say it was just, it was a time filler really.

Tim Reitsma 10:52

Well, I think you articulated it very well. It's I personally, I haven't experienced a lot of loss in my life and I was thinking, I was reflecting on that where we've, in our family we've lost some grandparents, and so, having not really experienced that, I've and I started thinking loss in a little different context of like, okay, loss of ability, With Crohn's, I've lost my ability to play with my kids, I'd lost my ability to work, and when your identity is wrapped up in that, it's there's a lot of grieving and loss in that, but but it's often invisible. And I know, you know, definitely not comparing, you know, losses. Here we process loss differently because and it's invisible, and I know people are listening to this have experienced loss, whether it is loss of a job, loss of of family, miscarriage, loss of, you know, loss of ability.

Tim Reitsma 12:00

We don't talk about it. It's, as a guest recently said, it's almost like a taboo subject we don't talk about because? Is it? Because we don't know how? And you know, I'm curious from your perspective, should we be talking about it and why don't we talk about it?

Deanne Rhynard 12:18

The short answer is yes, absolutely, we should be talking about it. But to expand further, the problem is that we as humans cannot just listen. So when you start talking about it, people want to solutionize, they want to fix your problems. They just like if you're like I'm really sad today, you know my hamster died, let's just be very basic. You know people are like, oh, but he's in a better place, he's not suffering. You know it's like, okay, but I'm sad and I just want to be sad. I actually don't want to think about whether or not he's in a better place because he might be in hamster. Hell. I mean, we could debate this all day long Like I miss my hamster, right, and we as humans cannot live in silence, cannot just sit there and be like Tim, I'm sorry about your hamster. Tell me more about your hamster, you know. So that that's one thing.

Deanne Rhynard 13:25

Another thing is there is an expiration for how long you can talk about your hamster, and this is. There's not even a pamphlet that tells you what. That expiration of time is right, but as society, we all have our own timeframe and it's just like. So, second nature of like, why is that person still talking about the hamster, like we've talked about the hamster two days, two weeks, two years, whatever it is right. You start to feel like, okay, let's move on, or you've forgotten it because it's not your hamster, so you don't ask, you don't think about it, so you don't know that they're thinking about it, or you I might think, oh yeah, tim's hamster died last week. I wonder how he's doing. I shouldn't ask because then Tim will start thinking about it and I don't want to make him sad. News slash Tim's still thinking about the hamster. Like maybe I shouldn't have used the hamster because this is so ridiculous now. Like you're still thinking about it.

Deanne Rhynard 14:33

For someone like me that had that much loss, I'm thinking about it every day, Like that happened in spring of 22. And I still think about it every day. I come to tears almost every day still. And so for someone to think well, I don't want to bring it up because you know it might make her sad or it might hurt her, I don't know what to say. Like you're protecting your feelings, you're not protecting my feelings and if you care about me, you should ask. And, by the way, I've been horrible about this because I'm part of that same society, right, like I have been conditioned to feel afraid to ask about it as well, and uncomfortable, and the major overlay here is that we're all very uncomfortable.

Deanne Rhynard 15:25

What will I say? How should I respond? You don't need to, you just sit with them. Just sit with what they're saying and be comfort. You know, that's really. We just want to be seen and heard, and I don't think we're capable of this until we actually recognize these things that I've mentioned, that we don't know how to respond, we don't know how to not solutionize. If we do respond, right, like we just need help as a society to figure it out. But I think talking about it would certainly be helpful, because we feel like we can't talk about it. And then you internalize everything and we wonder why we're all unhappy.

Tim Reitsma 16:11

Yeah, it's so true. There's so many thoughts rolling through my mind as you're telling us telling that story and about my fictitious hamster. So if you are listening, if you're like hey what's going on with Tim's hamster?

Tim Reitsma 16:24

I don't have a hamster, but if I did, you know I've had pets and more than the loss of those pets We've lost. We've had significant loss in our family due to fire and we still mourn that. We've lost family members and friends and we mourn that. That's right. There's things that trigger and it's like there's no time limit. You could be walking down the street and a smell or a sight can trigger that grief. And so when we first met, when we first connected to kind of talk about an episode we talked about you mentioned, I just wanted someone to listen. And that's such a reoccurring theme. Where we are humans and I'm generalizing here are we here a problem and we want to fix it. My background is operations, management, process improvement, so I want to fix it. I want to get to the root of the problem.

Tim Reitsma 17:21

I want to solve that root problem and fix it and just like we're going to move on and I was thinking about that yesterday of, yeah, it's impossible. So if we go into that with that mindset of I'm going to listen to Dianne, I'm going to listen to Tim, I'm going to listen to my friend, and they're going to tell us their story, maybe of grief, and my mind is already jumping ahead to how I can fix that. You're not actually listening, you're, you're solutioning. And this concept of active listening is, you know, there's one theory of like multiple levels of active listening and like getting to that, like hearing the words and that's all that's permeating your brain is just those words. I don't know how to get there. I'm stuck in this. I'm guilty of this myself. And so when you say there's no time limit to grieve, and yet we feel that people say, okay, it's time to move on, how do we handle that conversation? How do we navigate that, aside from just internalizing it?

Deanne Rhynard 18:32

I mean, I think it depends on who you're talking to, right, in my own experience, I'm a very direct individual. Those that know me, I'm not afraid to share my feelings. So you know, like with my husband, we've had very honest conversations about like I'm struggling today, I'm not doing well, it seems like you're not struggling at all, what's going on. And then, you know, we dissect that and talk about, just like, how grief is different and how, like with the loss of our baby, was very physical for me, right, like I carried the baby, I gained the weight, like I had the things that happened after the loss that, you know, my partner didn't experience because he was not physically carrying the baby. So the reminders are a lot more present for me. And, you know, I'm lucky to have someone that will meet me where I'm at and that I can have those very hard conversations with.

Deanne Rhynard 19:39

In society we're afraid to say things sometimes because we're afraid we're gonna lose that person, right, and if I have these conversations with my husband and he doesn't wanna have those conversations and he wants to walk away, then I guess he wasn't that great for me. Anyway, it's like easier said than done, right, but I think if you need help. If you want support, you have to be willing to ask. I am not good at this outside of my husband, like I don't do well with this with my friends, I don't do well with this with other family members and unfortunately, because of that, I think my friends don't know how to support me. In fact, I've been told like well, you're the rock, dianne, so when something happens to you, like, what do we do? And it's like whoa, that's not really fair right, a little bit of pressure.

Deanne Rhynard 20:40

Right. So I think, in the same way that I'm willing to talk to my husband, I have to be willing to talk to others. I've gotten better at this because I've been forced, like I've forced myself, and so the few that I trust I'll open up to and share, and if I don't get the response I need, then I guess they weren't really the friend for me and that's really. It's like spiraling grief, right, it's tough, but I think you have to ask for help in the way that you need help, and if you don't know, then just say it Like I don't feel good and I need you to know that and I don't even know what to say beyond this, and hopefully your person that you're talking to will meet you where you're at and you can work it out together, hopefully.

Tim Reitsma 21:37

Yeah, my wife and I we've been married 13 years and we'll start a conversation with this. I just need you to listen, or this is a listening conversation that's productive, I know. In my mind I'm like, okay, I better keep my mouth closed and just be quiet and listen, and I could have, in my opinion, the 13 of the best solutions, but that's not what she needs. She needs me to listen and that is, I think, sound advice for the strangers on social media who want to jump to a solution without understanding what we're going through, or the friends in our circle of hey, I'm grieving, I've experienced something. I just need someone to listen. I don't need solutions. I don't need 13 self-help book recommendations, because I'm not gonna read them. I don't need inspirational quotes, I've got enough.

Tim Reitsma 22:37

I just need people. I just want someone to listen.

Deanne Rhynard 22:40

Yeah.

Tim Reitsma 22:41

And it's yeah.

Deanne Rhynard 22:42

And one big solution that people love to offer or push, however you want to look at it is are you talking to someone? You should really be talking to someone and no, I'm not talking to someone because I'm not ready to talk to someone. And, by the way, this is gonna probably be polarizing to people that listen to this and I'm aware of that and okay with it, but I don't want to talk to someone. I'm very self-aware.

Deanne Rhynard 23:14

I know the problems I'm dealing with and right now, still almost two years later, I feel like if I go and get therapy by the way, I have gotten therapy and seen therapists, I am a huge advocate of that and it has benefited me so much in the past but right now, where I'm at, if I feel, if I go and do that, it feels like I'm trying to fix the grief and I'm trying to get rid of the feelings that I'm having and I'm not ready and I don't want to, and I wish people would stop telling me to go do it Because they think that they know what's best. How about you come and live in my body and deal with what I'm dealing with? Then you can go and take yourself to counseling. But like I don't want that right now. That's not. That's my procket right.

Tim Reitsma 24:10

I've also felt that at times it's like I don't want to hear it, like I just want to go through what I'm going through and having that force of like hey, you should talk to someone, you should talk to this person or that person or this thing or whatever. As someone who has supported others going through grief and loss and have coached and mentored youth as well as adults. It's how can I meet someone where they're at, not meet someone where I'm at? Because if I'm feeling great, then that's going to influence how I show up and be like oh well, I'm feeling good, so now you're going to meet me where I'm at, versus I'm going to meet you where you're at.

Tim Reitsma 25:00

And I think that's something I'm working on and I'm not good at, but we need to keep that in our minds Because we all process things differently. If you search how does grief show up? It shows up. You'll get a list. You'll get a long list. It could be anger, depression. It could show up as insomnia. It can show up as depression. It could show up as it's not even affecting you externally, but it could be ripping you apart internally.

Tim Reitsma 25:31

And that's the invisible nature of grief, as it shows up so so differently, and you experienced a lot, and not just yourself physically, but also emotionally and with those around you. How did it show up for you? If you don't mind us going there, and, yeah, I'm curious, how did grief show up for you?

Deanne Rhynard 26:00

I mean in every way possible. I don't even know where to begin. When I learned about my aunt, it was unexpected and it was a call at almost 11 o'clock at night and I had already gone to bed at night, got the news and immediately went to the bathroom and started dry heaving and you know just like it felt like the world disbelief. I still with the topic of my aunt, it's still disbelief, like almost like she's coming back. It's a very weird thing and that brings on a lot of tears. I'm angry, very angry, like I pretty much cuss her out every day, like you know, whatever explicit word you want to insert here Like why did you leave?

Deanne Rhynard 26:59

Like why now you don't know my son? I like sense the loss of at 21 weeks. We've since had a child which I'm so grateful for, and she doesn't know him. And that's so angry. And I know it's not her fault, like I know you know she didn't commit suicide, so it's definitely not her fault, but I'm angry that she's not here. I needed her longer. So there's a lot of tears and a lot of emotion and a lot of hiding that I still feel that way because two years later, who wants to talk about it? Right, like even just saying I lost my aunt. People are like cool your aunt, like are you that close to your aunt? Yeah, I was like so close to my aunt, face timed multiple times a day, every single day, and she would come. I lived in Seattle at the time. She lived in Portland. That's a three hour drive. I mean she'd be at her house staying with us every six weeks, easy.

Navigating Grief and Support

Deanne Rhynard 28:14

Then move on to the loss of my son. I find myself actually asking the question of which one do I grieve more? And my husband's like? I don't think you really need to like answer that question. That one was more physical right, like I had gained weight because I was pregnant. I then lost him. This is graphic, but I had to deliver him at home, in my bathroom. Then your body responds.

Deanne Rhynard 28:52

When you have a loss, where you start like, your body interprets it as you delivered a baby, right, so milk production, and then months later, hair falling out, and so there were constant reminders. So it's like when my hair started falling out, it was like utter shock and like shook me to my core because it was like, are you kidding me? And so it's like anger, frustration, crying, just feeling just so over it, right. And then you're getting emails like your baby's probably arrived, or, like you know, mailers in the physical from USPS. It's like just so triggering. And so how does it manifest? For me it's just like physical, mental, emotional.

Deanne Rhynard 29:50

And then there's the strain of like I got to pull it together because my kids can't see me like this, because there was a period of time. Mommy, are you crying again? What are you crying about? It's like, oh, like not that I can't be emotional, and from my kids because I can, but I also don't want them to remember this period of life where I was like just completely depressed, right, like they don't get it and I shouldn't expect them to get it. I want them to be okay with crying and tears, but I also want them to have an enjoyable childhood. So, like, get it together, deanne, like you can cry when they go to bed or go to the bathroom, get it all out and then like when you need to go do school pickup and see all the other parents and you can't look like you were in tears, like it's just. It manifests in every way, deanne, like a very drawn out response there.

Tim Reitsma 30:50

That's a very real response and I know people listening will resonate with that, with what you're talking about, and they also resonate with the aspect of okay, I'm grieving in silence and now I need to put myself together to go out into the world and put on that smile and, you know, grab my coffee and look like, oh, I've got it all together where you don't. And I remember once, or at this, this gathering, and someone had asked you know, oh, how are you doing? And my wife said not good. And this person was shocked. It was like, oh, I just engaged in a conversation, I don't want to run, yeah.

Tim Reitsma 31:34

And so they were like, oh, and they walked away. I'm like, oh, that was, you know, awkward. And another, this elderly lady, was like oh hi, tim and Tanya, how are you doing? And Tanya said, well, not good. I can't remember the exact thing that was going on. And Tanya, my wife, just explained that you know going through a really hard time and was very open and honest. And this little old lady just put her arm around Tanya and said tell me more, and just was like let it out. And we didn't. I remember that that was like 10 years ago and we didn't have to hide.

Tim Reitsma 32:13

And in order to end the stigma around visible conditions and grief is one of those we can't hide we have to stop hiding, we have to embrace that of yeah, today is crappy, today is not a good day and tomorrow might be a better day. But I'm not going to convince myself today that it needs to be better, because then I feel guilty about that. And then the NFS and two. You kind of go down that spiral when I say that I'm curious what comes up for you about, just like owning it, because I'm terrible at it. I just don't. I don't want help, I'm terrible at asking for help or support. I'm just yet. I want others to say how they're feeling, because I want to not help them, but to support them.

Deanne Rhynard 33:06

Yeah, I mean I'm a realist more pessimistic I guess and so I want the change. But do I really believe the change is coming? I'm just being honest with you, right, like I think what it looks like for me is speaking more, sharing more in an environment where I feel safe, right, a friend just came over earlier this week and she'd kind of learned all this about me we're newer friends and she said, wow, like, with all you've been through, like it looks like you're doing really well. You know, like, how are you doing? I'm like you're not well like survival, right.

Deanne Rhynard 33:52

Like I have my good days and my bad days. I mean, overall, like I have so much to be grateful for. I have a very rich life and I will never take that for granted. However, I'm just like one foot in front of the other, right, and she was like oh, wow, like that makes sense. You know, like, thank you for sharing, I think, where I feel safe, where it's like, to your point, the lady that gave a hug and would listen, like I have a decent read on people, so I'm just going to read the person and go.

Deanne Rhynard 34:31

Will they be able to handle it, or am I willing to like give them a little shock value and then just give them something to think about. Right Like, not well, feel like shit, thanks, just leave them with that little nugget for them to process later. So I guess it depends. Like, I want to be part of the solution but I also want to protect myself, and that's the daily struggle that we have to deal with. Right Like, are we willing to put ourselves out there? What risk does that come with? And I'm not perfect at it, I'm could be a lot better.

Tim Reitsma 35:12

It's interesting that you say what risk comes with it, because I've heard that from so many people who want to tell their story of living with an invisible condition and they're weighing that risk. Is it worth the risk? And I booked six months in advance, so I think there's people saying yeah, it's worth the risk.

Tim Reitsma 35:35

But I also hear from people saying it's not worth the risk. And what I say to people is it's your story, we're going to honor your story and if you choose to share your story in some way or another, that's great. If you choose not to, that's fine. You know there's. We can't just change society and say we're going to now force everyone to disclose their trauma, their grief, their conditions on their resume and their applications and in order to create more inclusion. That's not going to work, especially when you've gone through a lot of loss. And again, we all process things differently. I'm sure even in your household, your husband processed different than you and other family members processed different than you, and that's okay. And there's no expiration. I love that there's no expiration date on whatever we've gone through in the past, absolutely.

Tim Reitsma 36:41

And so you know you've shared vulnerably, just about you know, that physical change with loss, and you've then lost your aunt and your son was in the hospital. And you know, I know people who would have just said, tap out, I'm just going to run away, find a cabin in the woods and just be on my own. And yet you're here sharing openly and honestly, and I really appreciate you for that. It's a lot going through my mind right now as well, and so you know, I think, as we kind of wrap up the conversation around grief and loss, what are what's coming to mind around? If somebody's going through something, what do you want to say to them, and what do you want to say to that person, but also those friends that are there to support them?

Deanne Rhynard 37:47

I'd say stop trying to feel like you need to have the perfect thing to say or a way to exist for that individual, that there is no perfect thing and that just being there, even if silent, is really valuable. Showing up over and over again is really important, because the thing that I noticed is that people will show up and then it fades, and the immediate is what we tend to respond to. Right, but in my experience, I needed more later, when everyone forgot about what had happened for me not forgot, but you know, like life moves on. They didn't have lost right and so continuing to show up and check in and I've had a couple of people that have done that in varying ways and that's been meaningful. But stop thinking that you need to have some script or some one liner that's going to solve everything, because it's just not possible.

Deanne Rhynard 39:04

And then for the person grieving, just block out what isn't helpful and bring in more of what is. And if someone did something that was particularly helpful, said something, showed up in some way, really make it known how meaningful that was and know that that's a person that you can go to for help and it's okay to ask for help. I'm saying this like again. I don't do well at that. I also haven't done well to be a friend, you know, to others that have experienced loss and grief and I'm learning to learn. That's what's coming to mind, tim. It's hard, so take it easy, give yourself some grace and just show up.

Tim Reitsma 40:08

It is hard, and if somebody is trying to sell you a five step program, that's nonsense.

Deanne Rhynard 40:14

Don't do it. I shouldn't say don't do it, but choose wisely, I guess, yes, choose wisely that sound insight and wisdom there.

Tim Reitsma 40:25

And I know I was vulnerable on LinkedIn, primarily LinkedIn, because there's so much superficial stuff on LinkedIn and here's five steps on how to build your team. This is the magic bullet for this. If there was a magic bullet, we wouldn't need to talk about leadership and communication, and new managers and all this stuff.

Tim Reitsma 40:48

If there was a magic bullet and all these experts had the right answers, we wouldn't need that platform anymore. We wouldn't all be selling. We wouldn't all be selling, and so my stance on LinkedIn now is less selling and just more like, hey, this is what's top of mind. I've lost followers. It's fine. I'm not out to be a top voice and be 30,000 people. That's not my goal. It's how to be more vulnerable, and you took that step. You sent me a message that touched my heart and it was like, hey, I'm here for you.

Tim Reitsma 41:24

And it wasn't like, hey, here's this book, or hey, try this app, or hey, because I received a lot of those. It was like, hey, I'm here, I hear you, thank you for being vulnerable. And here we are, and I'm sure this is not the last conversation we're going to have. This is the start of many conversations, and so, as we wrap up, I just want to say thank you so much for your openness. It's a raw story, it's a vulnerable moment for you and I really appreciate it because I think this is going to resonate with people. And again, there's no like. Here's five takeaways out of this episode on things you need to do. Yeah, if anything, the central theme is, if you're listening to someone or you know someone who's going through grief and loss, just pause what you're going to say, put your arm around them, either virtually or physically, and say tell me more, I'm here for you, I care about you, just listen.

Deanne Rhynard 42:24

Yeah, exactly, I care about you.

Tim Reitsma 42:27

I'm going through something and you don't know where to turn to. If you don't have close friends, please reach out. You can head to InvisibleConditioncom. Send me a note there on Instagram, wherever you're listening to this or finding this, because I might not. I don't have the answers, but I'm good at listening, and so if you are struggling today, we'll put some resources in the show notes as well, and at the end of, somebody wants to get a hold of you and their story resonates with them and they're interested about your podcast. Where can people find you?

Deanne Rhynard 43:09

I have a website and you can link it in the show notes at vnuppodcastcom. I'm on Instagram, on LinkedIn, and my email address is podcastfnup at gmailcom. Perfect.

Tim Reitsma 43:30

And, yes, we'll link all that in the show notes and so, with that, thanks again for coming on and for those who are listening. I always appreciate your messages of support and, if you have the means, we've got a donate button up on the website. These shows are only possible because of you and your generosity as well. As consider leaving us a rating Ratings, help get the podcast out there and really support just telling others that this is a show worth listening to. And so with that, deanne, I hope you have a great day, and, for those who are listening, I hope you have an amazing one too.

Deanne Rhynard 44:07

Thanks, tim, thank you.