NessHost
I'm sitting here with Gillian and Megan, two of our foster carers, and what we're going to be talking about is coming into fostering via other family members or friends who also were already fostering. We have quite a few people in our service who've ended up coming into fostering because they already know somebody who is doing it Before I start, and I know Gillian, sort of in transit, hopefully we'll be able to hear you, Gillian. So who came into fostering first?
GillianGuest
Well, I would say we adopted our fourth child, so he's kind of classed as fostered. So maybe I would say we'll start with that, which was maybe about seven years ago.
NessHost
So you started fostering about seven years ago.
GillianGuest
Yes, so I would say he was the first in our family unit. He was placed in our family.
NessHost
OK, and how was it when you first talked about fostering, in your wider family, what was the reaction to that?
GillianGuest
For me personally, everyone was a bit shocked because we already had birth children. They maybe didn't really understand why we wanted to do it or why we wanted to have more children. So maybe there was a wee bit of that. You know they were very supportive, but with maybe a wee bit of why, why, why, why would you do this?
NessHost
I can imagine that's quite a common response, and I'm wondering how you explain fostering to family members who perhaps haven't thought about it before.
GillianGuest
So for fostering after we had adopted, then we decided that we were going to foster and we just, by that point in time, we had peer friendships for people who also fostered and adopted and we knew there was a great need for fostering. So we just explained to our wider family circle that we felt this is something that we could do. And by that point we had adopted a boy and everybody was on board, everybody knew kind of what it was about and everybody by that point was OK. So it wasn't such a big stretch to go from adopting to fostering.
NessHost
And Megan, when did you come into fostering, if you probably should explain what your relationship is with Gillian, actually?
MeganGuest
Yes, so I'm Gillian's sister-in-law. My husband is Gillian's brother. So for me we started our process just after Gillian had her first placement placed with them. We'd kind of chatted about it for about two years, probably the same sort of time they were coming in fostering, following their adoption. It was the assessment that we were delaying doing, if I'm really honest, it's obviously very intrusive and very personal and it was that that my husband didn't want to do.
So it was during Gillian and Anders adoption and then again during their fostering assessment. I referenced for them both times as a family reference, so we were able to see up close what that looked like. I think, for us we knew what to expect. We knew how great the need for new foster carers was, and still is, and we knew what trauma can look like. So the reality of parenting a different child, parenting a looked after child with trauma compared to parenting our birth children, was. We obviously seen the support that they were getting off Barnardo's at the time and we knew. But really we knew from the second we applied that this was for us because we had spent so long considering it and we were able to see then how accepting our family was and the support that we would have. So we knew from the get go that we were going ahead.
NessHost
When Gillian was, when Gillian and Anders were adopting, what was your feelings when you first heard about that?
MeganGuest
When Gillian and others were adopting. I won't say that I was ever surprised. Her children were all very little, their children are very little and were one year apart all three of them. So I think it was the timing rather than the situation that we were surprised at. I was pregnant with our last birth child, so obviously the timing for us, it was just at the back of our mind. It always was. I personally was raised by my mum and my mum's mum, my granny, and my granny was in foster care as a child. She was actually in foster care with Barnardo's and she was moved from Northern Ireland to England into a foster home. And my granny passed away a couple of years ago when she was 98 and she only ever had nice things to say and was very grateful for her experiences with Barnardo's. It was always in our minds that we would foster, just when.
NessHost
I was interested to hear because we've talked before, Megan, haven't we, about the assessment process, and actually we just did a podcast with Ben about the assessment process, because it's so difficult to understand it from the outside, what was it about the process? You said it was quite invasive, which is understandable because we're obviously doing a lot of safeguarding when we're looking at applicants, but what was it that reassured you enough to feel that the pair of you could carry on and come into fostering?
MeganGuest
I think it was never reassurance, it was just knowing the need that was there and knowing that it was something we wanted to do. So at the time when we initially applied, we had said you know, this is for us and this is our commitment. It's now or never and we'll take it one week at a time, which really are sort of our opinion coming in. Our assessment definitely was not as bad as we had built it up to be in our mind. We had a great relationship with our social worker who had done our assessment. It is intrusive, it is invasive, it's every aspect of your life from as far back as you can remember, but it kind of feels like you're chatting to a friend by the time you get to that point, instead of being in an interview, I suppose.
NessHost
Yeah, yeah, I can see that. So one of the things that you mentioned earlier, Megan, and I want both of you to sort of respond to is you say you understood what trauma looks like in children, children who have dealt with attachment issues, who've been through incredible difficulties and I often wonder how parenting a child who is not your child, who has experienced trauma, how that might look different to parenting your own child, and I was wondering about how important it must be to have people in your family who understand that.
GillianGuest
Can I just add a wee bit to start on your subjects before there? Before we talk about that. I remember very specifically a time where Matthew, my brother, looked at my son who was being adopted and said we could do this. Now, Megan absolutely knew she has that personality. She could do that in a heartbeat. Wouldn't it have been a question in her mind 'would she be able to do it?' but I think for Matthew seeing it play out now.
Matthew has a connection to my son in that he was one of his best friend's nephews. So we were, we had booked to go to Florida. It was just after we booked to go to Florida and it was my son's first time going holiday and the magnitude of seeing my son living a happy life made him realise that that is something he could do. So he had his birth children and he obviously loved them.
And then seeing that play out in reality for him, I think, added to his working it out all in his head, if that makes sense, I think for the actual assessment process for most men, opening up and talking about their feelings and their past and how their upbringing impacts their day-to-day life and all that kind of stuff. They aren't really going to want to do that. So that is one of the biggest hurdles and it's not nothing changes your mind of that, because it's so hard when you're committing to do that and trying to not talk your partner into it but and nearly playing it down that it won't be a big deal and you have to just grin and bear it, it's worth it in the end, all those things. But then when you get into the habit of it, it works out that it's okay. But I don't know what. What do you think about that, Megan? Do you remember that situation at all?
MeganGuest
I don't remember him saying it, but I do know that he spent a lot of years, like a long period of time, saying I just don't think I could ever love another child the same way I love my own birth children and it's not fair to bring another child to our house and not love them like I love my birth children. So we spoke about that during our assessment and really our social worker chatted about don't have to. You're not expected to. You're offering them a safe home. You're still offering them your love. You're not expected to feel the same. You will always feel differently, whether or not, no matter what the difference is. But I think very quickly we could see that Gillian and Anders didn't feel different when their son joined them and within six months of him living there, they loved him just like he had been there forever, and we all did. We all loved him as our nephew, just like our other nieces and nephews that had already been there.
We come from a very large family. On Matthew and Gillian's side there is over 20 grandchildren, so it's not just me and Gillian that have large families. There has always been a lot of children in our family. So to see that nobody in our family felt any differently towards him. He did have trauma. He didn't want touched, he didn't really want to be around people for a period of a couple of months when he first joined. So it obviously took time to know. They took their own time to settle him into their family before our family is full on. And it is massive and it and it is a lot for a lot of people. So it does and it's the same for us. You know, when we have new children living with us we have to take a period of time of it being just us, regardless of what that time is.
NessHost
I think that's very important because for children who have experienced early trauma and who've had difficulties in their birth family, it's not only that they're coming in with perhaps hyperarousal or hypervigilance, they're also having to confront loss. And if they're coming into a family who are big and loud and happy and you know, it might be wonderful to be a part of that, but there's also probably going to be feelings of frustration and disappointment and anger and bitterness that actually they didn't have that initially. They're going to have to deal with complicated feelings about where they fit into that and why they didn't have that in the first place and might not even know that that is something they're responding to. I'm just wanting to come back to that whole thing about how trauma sometimes presents in families and how important it is for families to be sensitive to presenting behaviours that might seem surprising or be read differently.
GillianGuest
So some of the children in our family have food issues, like my son cannot do a buffet. He overeats, he overthinks it, it stresses him out, he can't do it. So we've had other children through Megan's house who have the same types of trauma symptoms. Like Megan had said, my son didn't want to be touched for a period of time and still might struggle with that type of thing as well. So I think, depending on the child's trauma as to how we respond to each individual child, because they're all also different, my foster daughter at the minute has no attachment trauma. She is treated typically, as it were, not to say that will derise in the future when she gets into her teenage years, but for right now that's what it is. So I think with the trauma and foster and trauma and attachment trauma, it's very easy for us to be in each other's company with our children because we get it.
MeganGuest
I will tell you a funny story we have. We stay in Gillian's house once a month. We have a bedroom and our children have a bedroom that they share, and we stayed over when we had a little girl who was placed with us in the past and we were in the living room watching TV just adults and she got out of bed and ate half a packet of biscuits out of Gillian's cupboard Now she was a toddler, like she was not very old, but in somebody else's company you might feel like you need to explain that, or there might be a guilt around your child doing that, or they may say it as a bad behaviour, but at that time it was Gillian who had heard somebody in the kitchen, got up, thought it was one of her children and had seen her and diverted her to me and that's the end of it. You know, there's no stigma. There's no nothing following that. And it's the same, for we have a sibling group with us at the minute who are both age four and under and they often speak about their birth mum and Gillian will say about her foster daughter 'her other mummy bought her that', or 'her mummy bought that', or, and they will happily say 'I'm going to see my mummy' and it's just, it's not hidden and it's open. It's an understanding throughout all of our children. Between our two families we have 10 children, so there is a lot of us and even the teenagers will understand if they're saying 'my mummy bought that' and will show an excitement on their level of them being excited to show it.
GillianGuest
Yeah, just that understanding between the children of many other birth parents involved in the situation you know, 'I'm going to see my birth mum' or 'birth dad bought that' or there's an understanding between the children, between the parents. It just makes things much easier. Like once there was a little girl who was placed with Matthew and Megan, and it was right at the start of the placement and she was kind of referring to everybody as mummy. You know, and that if you were a regular aunt or your uncle, that's lovely.
MeganGuest
So the child that we had that was calling everybody mummy, that was on the school run in the shopping centre. My family, Matt's family, her own family, male, female, it was everybody. And for that to be maybe your birth niece, you would think, oh, she sees me like a mummy, whereas Gillian would have, if she came running and said 'mummy', diverted her. You're repeatedly replacing your own name so they learn different people by different names.
NessHost
So what Gillian was doing was distracting the child, and you were all reminding the child of your name.
MeganGuest
Yes, yes, So all of my children call Gillian Auntie GG. So if she was maybe saying 'mummy, mummy, mummy I need', she'll say 'Auntie GG, okay', do you know, it's not a big deal, just replacing the name and continuing to do what she wants, and within a period of a couple of months she was able to call them and recognise them by their name, and that Gillian and Anders play a major role in all of our children's lives, as do we and their children's. We are in each other's company, we holiday together, we. She's the first person I phone if I need help, and I know that for other people that might be their mum, but I know for Gillian it is the same and it is the understanding you know.
NessHost
People who don't understand might be very dismissive of or disapproving of of how we respond, but actually in your world you have two big families who are hanging out together and actually not only do you all understand that these presenting behaviours have underlying reasons for them, but the children also have very normalised experiences of other children who have birth mothers and foster mothers and adopted parents, and there seems to be a really good dynamic between all of the family members.
MeganGuest
They definitely do. It is definitely on an age appropriate basis
NessHost
Yes, let's go back to Gillian. Gillian, we lost you for a second. The only thing that I wouldn't mind, just following up what you were saying there about working with Megan's foster daughter, who was calling you mummy, and Megan was just explaining that your divert her attention, but also remind her what your name was.
GillianGuest
Thanks to the first week, we established their attachment as a primary attachment not to be to us, because we're in their lives a lot, making sure that the attachment was strongest with them. It was lovely, it's lovely them to do that, but also the most important thing is recognising that they need to be attached to Matthew and Megan primarily and to keep that diversion.
I remember when our son first came to us he would have held he was only like a baby in your arms and he would have held his arms out to literally anybody, like the cashier at the till and just discarding that and hugging him in or moving him onto the other hips. So it's that over-friendlyness that some children can have and it's diverting that so that you're making the secure attachment with the right people.
Initially I'm just doing that with ease, it's not talked about, it's not thought about, it's just something that we both recognise and it goes unsaid. I think the more training we have as well, their nights at Megan's been at the training and it's been specifically about one of my children's, or there's been ADHD training nights that I've been to specifically for one of her children. So I think we support each other in that way as well. But we do surround ourselves like I have friends who have adopted and just have a new placement and we build each other up and understand each other in a way that other people don't. On the surface. It's great to have such a supportive family. You know that really do mean that.
But when you have somebody else in your family who fosters and who fosters that they have they just get things that don't even need to be said, you know, and we can vent at each other. I know there are weeks that they'll have to see each other, maybe every weekend as parents, because that's our thing and our sanity is 'I've had a hard week. This is the behaviour we're dealing with'. It's not even always for advice it's just to say it out loud, you know, just somebody else who really, truly understands, with no judgement attached.
MeganGuest
The only thing that I didn't chat about is that you had mentioned a question about do you usually lean on each other, and we'd obviously talked about that a little bit. But Gillian and Anders have offered, they've done respite for us. They have, like last week they babysat for us at the drop of a hat and we were at the NI Fostoring Awards, myself and Matt and vice versa. Their child that they foster is medically complex and she's spent long since in hospital and I have been able to stay with her overnight and offer them one night together where you know, she was in hospital for a period of three months straight without being out. So there definitely is practical support as well as a lot of emotional support.
But it offers my looked-after children the same experiences as my birth children, so they can be babysat with the same people, they can have a sleepover at their auntie's house instead of going to respite. Does that make sense? That makes absolute sense. They get the same experiences and the same, not treated differently and not just not known. Do you know what I mean? We would never say 'we need respite'. It would be 'we're going out tonight and Auntie Gillian is babysitting' rather than and we have used other respite we have before, but in the short term and with our children being so little, that's obviously not ideal. So it is nice to have vice versa, even if that is a two-hour cinema trip, do you know?
NessHost
Yeah, so you know, imagine if we were using the word respite with our own family members, with our birth children. You know it's a very difficult clinical term.
MeganGuest
It's hard.
NessHost
And it doesn't help a child, I imagine, feel (at home)
MeganGuest
I definitely don't, and I think Gillian and Anders are the only people that I would leave my birth children with, so I know that they have experience in that one of their own children has ASD and has a genetic condition. Their birth children. They have experience in trauma, they have experience in and I know that's reciprocated in the terms that we have babysat for them while they have went to a wedding abroad and we have. So it's nice to feel like you're not a burden on somebody else. You know you don't feel bad for wanting to do it. Right.
NessHost
well, look, I want to thank you so much for talking to me this morning. It was nice chatting to you. Thank you so much, Megan. I really appreciate it. I'll give you a touch. Thank you, speak to you later. Thank you.