What is Therapeutic Parenting?

ICYMI - this is our online conversation with our therapeutic parenting trainer, Stella. 

Stella brings a wealth of experience and knowledge about fostering and adoption, and she shares how therapeutic parenting can be a game-changer for children who have endured trauma. You'll learn how recognizing children's behavior as a form of communication rather than a challenge can build stronger, more healing relationships. And Stella should know she is a former foster carer turned adoptive parent herself. 

Through our conversation, we delve into the principles of attachment theory and discuss the profound impact early caregiving experiences have on a child's sense of safety and trust. Stella sheds light on the unique hurdles faced by children in the care system, including the devastating effects of multiple placements and the importance of creating a predictable and supportive environment. We also explore the heartbreaking realities of developmental trauma and how therapeutic parenting can provide the stability these children need to thrive.

Finally, we tackle the complexities of adopting traumatized children, especially for single parents. Stella offers actionable advice on seeking help, building a robust support network, and the critical role of continuous learning and training. By understanding and addressing children's emotional states, therapeutic parenting not only fosters resilience but also enables parents to build lasting connections with their children. Tune in to gain invaluable insights and practical strategies for nurturing children who have experienced significant life disruptions.

Learn more about fostering and adoption with Barnardo’s:
https://www.barnardos.org.uk/get-support/fostering-and-adoption

To learn more about fostering and adoption in NI, visit our Linktr.ee:
https://linktr.ee/barnardosfosteringni

To ask a question, give us some feedback or make a topic request, email us at:
BFANI@barnardos.org.uk

Foster belonging with us!

Chapters

• 0:03 Understanding Therapeutic Parenting Approach
• 12:12 Effects of Attachment and Moving
• 25:20 Teens and Trauma's Impact on Attachment and Development
• 39:39 Challenges of Parenting Traumatised Children
• 48:55 Therapeutic Parenting in Practice
• 55:04 Further Information. Thank you for listening!

Transcript

Ness: 0:03

Welcome to the Barnardo's Fostering and Adoption Northern Ireland podcast. Each episode we will meet families and team members from right across our fostering and adoption services. We're aiming to get behind the scenes so we can learn more about what it's really like to foster or adopt. Welcome to uh this information session where we're going to be talking specifically about therapeutic parenting. And on the call today we have stella from bernardo's fostering and adoption northern ireland, who is a bit of a specialist in this area. She does a lot of training with our foster carers and you know therapeutic parenting is one of those things that you will hear bandied about. But, um, tella, what? What does it actually mean?

Stella: 0:55

Well, that's a good, that's a good question, because it is one of those things that as soon as you come into the, I suppose the foster, the world of fostering and adoption, you, you hear a lot of talk about therapeutic parenting and it's, it's, it's, it's not a, it's not always the most helpful term, but it's really, um, about very heavily nurtured parenting. So parenting that requires a lot of nurturing and support for children and young people. I know, when I started out, I'd never heard of it. I'd never heard of it and, um, and I wish I, you know, looking back now, um, I, I really wish I had it. It was something that would have made a big difference for me from the start. Um, my, my own is in education. I was a teacher and I wish I'd known about it. Then I suppose, just to give you a little bit of context in relation to myself as well, so, although I work for Barnardo's in Northern Ireland, I really am not a social worker. I came to this role really through my own experience as a foster, care and adopter and, as I say, when I started I'd never heard of therapeutic parenting. So it was a bit of a learning curve and I have to say that without you know sort of learning in this area, I don't think I'd be where I am today in relation to not just in relation to my job, but very much in relation to my job but very much into relation to me as a mommy.

Stella: 2:26

I suppose therapeutic parenting is, it's a parenting style that really tries to pay attention to what's going on on the inner world of children. For children, it's really trying to support connections with those children to learn about how they're feeling and to be able to support them to be able to get on better in the world. And it's useful for all children. But it's especially useful for children who've come through the care system because they have experienced, you know they're coming, they're coming into care on the back of things like physical, emotional, sexual abuse, neglect, domestic violence, parental addictions. They have a very different starting point from, from children who are coming from a secure base and the therapeutic approach really tries to recognize that base, to recognize that a different starting point and to to start to in many ways reparent them and giving them those good enough experiences.

Stella: 3:29

I suppose when you think of therapeutic parent, when you hear therapeutic parenting, you you could be forgiven to think is that a parent, that's who's a therapist. What's this therapy part? It's not about being a therapist, and I think that's really important to make that distinction. You're not expected to be about being a therapist, and I think that's really important to to um to make that distinction. You're not expected to be a parent, a therapist. Therapists maybe have children or or you know whoever they work with for an hour or so at a time maximum. You couldn't do that as a parent.

Stella: 3:58

Therapeutic parenting is day in, day out and it's really about it all comes down to relationships and the power of relationships and the therapy. The therapeutic part, is really about healing and, uh, nurture, and I suppose that's that's. That's um gives you a little bit of a snapshot about what therapeutic parenting is all about, and it's really, I suppose it's recognizing that behavior. Children's behavior is language that tells us something about what's going on for those children. It's communicating something, so it's starting to pay attention to behavior. In relation to what is the child communicating as to, as opposed to, well, their behavior is just there to give me a hard time, you know. So, um, yeah, so that's the starting point anyway, nes, I think that's a great starting point.

Ness: 4:48

There's a couple of things I just want to bring up there. Yes, it's not about being a therapist as a parent, but some other terminology terminology has come from therapy. So when we talk about the Secure Base, which is a concept from from psychoanalyst John Bowlby, let me just push my glasses up. The secure base is the idea that when we are children, we learn about the world and we are brave within the world if we know we have safety to come back to. So the more that we feel safe within our base, our family, the more we feel confident about facing a world that is uncertain and can be challenging. And so there is something about children who have attachment trauma.

Ness: 5:37

So any child who's been removed from a family or has not felt safe within a family and had to be removed, they have not had that secure base initially. So suddenly adventures, being exploratory about life, all those things can feel slightly more threatening and frightening. So our way of managing and containing a child who may not be able to put into words that very basic and primal fear is going to be a little bit different, and I like the way that you talk about, stella. We are looking at what the behavior presents rather than what the behavior specifically is. You now, I've sat in on some of your training before now and one of the things I was interested in having watched years and years of that nanny program on Channel 4, is you give a very good example of how timeouts might be read very, very differently by a child who has whose care experience, as opposed to a birth child. So a child who was born to parents, and I'm wondering if you would say something about that.

Stella: 6:45

Yeah, yeah, so I also watched. It's not Nanny McPhee, super Nanny, super Nanny yeah, do you remember those Super Nannies? And you know some of those more traditional parenting methods. They will work. They may work quite well for lots of children who, as Ness says, has have that sort of secure base and have had good enough um strategy.

Stella: 7:11

You know parenting strategies growing up, but because our, because our children haven't had that, it can present very, very differently and I think this is often a challenge for people maybe coming to foster and adoption who already have reared children you know, maybe reared their own birth children and then the foster and adoptive child comes along and what works for the, for the children that were born to them, maybe doesn't work for the foster and adoption child, adopted child and it's you know, if we think of it, why some of those parenting and more traditional parenting methods are challenging things like the time, like that idea of you know you've done something wrong, so I'm going to put you over there to think about what you're doing. That can feel for a child who's maybe had a history of being excluded, maybe had a history of rejection or, you know, being ignored or whatever. That can be actually really, really hurtful for them, really triggering. So we have to learn, I suppose, what's going to work for individual children. You know timeouts might work for some children, but what therapeutic parenting approach would advocate is more of a time in spending time with the child, trying to reconnect with them. You know there's all sorts of different parenting methodologies right there, from the sort of intense, quite controlling helicopter parenting things right through to the sort of free rangers, you know go out there and you know look after yourself, sort of thing.

Stella: 8:43

And I suppose, as I say, the therapeutic parenting approach is you know, I feel it is. You know it's not just for fostered and adopted children. I think it's a good approach. I mean, I am an advocate of it and I wasn't reared that way. I was reared in a more traditional parenting approach. Nobody ever sat down with me if I, if I did something wrong and say I wonder how you're feeling. You know that wasn't what happened. So it doesn't always come naturally to me and I have to try and um, try and always keep it in the forefront of my mind is thinking well, my child's starting point was is very different to the starting point that I had, for example, so I have to put, bring it always, be bringing it back down to how do I make the child feel safe and how do I can connect with this child that they can start to feel, um, you know, and learn how to be in relationship, uh, with me and then subsequently with other people as well? Um, I think it's.

Stella: 9:44

I suppose it's remembering that children generally learn how they, how, who they are, and they learn how to be in the world through how their caregiving adults are with them. We learn who we are through how other people are with us. If you're, uh, if you, if people experience you as you know, experience you with joy, if they experience you, somebody who's lovable and to be loved, that's how you start to feel about yourself. But if you are, you know, um, experienced as a child who you know is excluded, or a child who is getting hurt or hit, that's you know, you start to feel I'm not good enough, it's my fault, and this is some of the challenges of for children who have, you know, they've been brought into care because the parenting hasn't been good enough, for whatever reason, in order to keep them safe, and so, you know, and you could have a child.

Stella: 10:44

You know a much older child. You know a child who could be older, who's had all these sort of negative experiences. So there might be, you know, let's say, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, but maybe they haven't had. They haven't had the same nurturing experiences that a very young child has had. So some of them might require a much younger nurturing approach. So, providing parenting that you might do for a younger child as well, while at the same time parenting their chronological age as well, you're also paying attention to the very basic needs that young children have as well, and it's really trying to make children start to feel safe, start to feel connected and start to be able to trust as well. And it's really trying to make children start to feel safe, start to feel connected and start to be able to trust as well.

Ness: 11:29

You know absolutely, it's about keeping that connection and that dialogue going in a way that the is appropriate for the child's development age and level of experience as well. And it's probably worth pointing out, isn't it, that it's not uncommon for children who've been brought into care, who've experienced a lot of trauma, to present as younger than their age group.

Stella: 11:55

Yeah, emotionally younger oftenness, you know, in many ways sometimes you will get many children who maybe practically they are maybe taking care of themselves or taking care of siblings and things like that, but maybe emotionally they're not able to regulate themselves. So if you think about when you have a little small baby and a human baby is really vulnerable, they take forever to reach any sort of level of independence, take forever to reach any sort of level of independence. And a little human baby, when it's very small like that, it is entirely reliant on its adult caregiver for all its to meet all its survival needs and it knows it. And when a little baby has a need and it doesn't even know initially itself what the need is, it just knows something doesn't feel right and I need help. And in order to get that help, oh baby, what does it do? It cries, you know. It cries to attract the attention of his caregiver.

Stella: 12:54

In a good enough situation, a good enough parent, good enough parent comes along, has a bit of a sniff, tries the, you know, checks the nappy, you know, tries the bottle. Or the hungry, or the thirsty, or the tired. Did they just need a wee cuddle or a wee chat? Or the cold? Whatever it is, a good enough parent works that out for the child and over and does this again and again and again and again. And over time, the child learns to expect that the adult is going to help it out with those things. So it learns. So if you think of a wee newborn baby, well, it's crying. You know, do you ever know that sort of urgency that the wee newborn baby cries? It's really quite frantic, it's. It is like as if it's crying for its life and that that's the sort of feeling it has. Doesn't know, oh, I'm tired or hungry or thirsty, it'll. It learns that who, through how they're good enough adult, works that out for them. And in a good enough situation, the child learns you know, it's going to be okay. My adult, my parent, my caregiver, whoever it is, is gonna work those things out. I deserve that and I feel connected to them and I feel safe. And oh, that uncomfortable feeling in my tummy that was fixed by the bottle or the food or whatever it was. Oh, that uncomfortable feeling back there down the line. They'll know that means I need to go to the toilet, whatever it is. So they learn about their own body through how the adult has worked it out for them and they learn about what to expect in the world. They learn about themselves, their own sort of sense of who they are, and they learn how to be with people through how their adult has worked it out for them, helped them through that.

Stella: 14:34

Unfortunately, for children who haven't had those good enough parenting experiences, they often get a very different experience. So maybe maybe when they've cried, when they've had their basic needs not met, maybe, um, somebody shouted at them or maybe somebody hurt them or hit them or ignored them. Maybe there was nobody there, maybe sometimes it happened and maybe sometimes it didn't. Maybe there was, you know, another sibling or something doing, doing it for them and they weren't quite right with it. You know, maybe it wasn't. You know whoever was looking after them. Or you know another sibling or something doing it for them and they weren't quite right with it. You know, maybe it wasn't. You know whoever was looking after them. Or you know they survived so they got this far, but maybe there wasn't. You know that good enough parenting experience and they have.

Stella: 15:23

So they cannot learn to trust that things are going to be okay. In fact, in many situations they learn to expect the worst, they learn to think and it's my fault, I'm not good enough, I can't trust my caregivers because sometimes they might even hurt me. And if I know that, if I think that the person who I need the most for my very survival is actually quite scary, you're in this untenable situation where I really need you for help, but actually I'm too terrified to go there. And the children's situation. So in the first scenario, where things were okay enough, the child learns sort of I'm okay, they're okay, the world is okay. But in the other scenario, when the parenting experience is not good enough, the situation is okay. But in the other scenario, when, when the parenting experience is not good enough, the situation is I'm not okay, they're not okay, the world is a scary place to be in.

Stella: 16:13

And so you, you know, you could have two children in front of you who've had very different starts in life, who they may look similar on the outside, but their internal working models of how they experience themselves, how they experience other people and how they get on the outside.

Stella: 16:24

But their internal working models of how they experience themselves, how they experience other people and how they get on the world is entirely different, and that's the challenge, you know. So you may see a seven-year-old, two seven-year-old boys in front of you or whatever it is, but actually they they're very different starting points and over time they're learning behaviors to help them cope in the world. You know, and if you don't feel safe, it's a very different experience. So, um, I suppose this to get back to you know, that's sort of attachment 101, but it's it's. It's really to think about. The therapeutic parenting approach is paying attention to the inner world of the child, recognizing that our children may not have this internal sense of feeling okay and that we have to. It's harder to do it the older they get and we have to do it again and again and again. It's building predictability for children so they can start to learn to trust us.

Ness: 17:24

You know, and that takes, that can take time, you know, um yeah, that's a really great explanation of, uh, a very early attachment anxieties that may exist in a very, very small child. But I just also want to bring in here that sometimes, through no fault of their own, the children that we see in the care system are moved around once or twice, but several times, and I'm just wondering if we should just paint a little bit of a picture of why that can happen. So would you like to do that?

Stella: 18:02

So part of my role as a Barnardo's is I would take in the referrals of the children who need, need, need homes, need places and and so. So, yeah, I mean and it it is heartbreaking on a daily basis as to you know that first of all, there's not enough carers out there, there's not enough foster carers, and and so for all sorts of reasons, children might have to move. So, first of all, um, and any move, any move is going to be a challenge. So I I would say to people in training I'd say, imagine if I was to tell you now you're not going to stay at home tonight, that you're going to come and live with me. I have a nice wee place. Do you know, I'm not a bad cook. Up to recently I was still a foster carer and I was health and safety checked within an inch of my life. I, you know, I'm not a bad cook. We've got sea glimpses. I live near the sea. Sea glimpses don't get much of a CV, but and but you don't know me, you know. But imagine you as the big adult that you are having to come and stay with me tonight, leaving where you are, and come to stay with me tonight, no matter how nice I am, one night we'll get a takeaway and a bottle of wine will be grand Two nights, three nights, six nights, six months Doesn't matter how nice I am am, you're losing your normal. And even if your normal isn't perfect and you know the reality is for the children it's not perfect it's still a big loss. You're still coming into this whole new situation. So this idea of this sort of separation and and the loss of what whatever their normal is is, is enormously stressful. So, even recognizing that this and one of the they say one of the most stressful things you can do as an adult is move house.

Stella: 19:56

But, as Ness says, some of the children coming through the care system have moved multiple times and I, I think in a previous uh role, I worked with a young man. He was 16 at this stage but he had had over 40 moves in his life. Now can you imagine what that might feel like? And I was working with him, I was doing education stuff and I remember asking him about oh, how far did you get in this course, or something. He just laughed at me. He couldn't have told you the names of his teachers. He couldn't have told you the names of the schools he attended about. Oh, how far did you get in this course, or something. He just laughed at me. He couldn't have told you the names of his teachers, he couldn't have told you the names of the schools he attended.

Stella: 20:38

He'd had so many moves over the years and it just it really brought it up short to me thinking, you know, I've moved house twice in my life and I remember thinking God so distraught, you know, and I've lived overseas once and I remember thinking God so distraught, you know, and I've lived overseas once and I remember what that did to me and I was an adult at the time. You know, and I, you know, I had a case there recently of a little boy who was brought into care. And you know, when he came into care you get a little bit of an information on what has happened to those children and we unfortunately didn't have anywhere to put him at the time and he was referred on somewhere else and then about maybe about three or four months later, I saw his referral come back into me again and I could see that in that time he'd had six moves. Do you know six? Can I, can you so, if that child didn't have problems at the start he did by the time he had been moved again and again. How can you possibly start to trust people if you're just? You never get a chance to to feel connected, you never get a chance to feel anchored. And so you're absolutely right, miss, the care system is not good enough for children. Uh, there's not enough cares. There's a big need to for for stability.

Stella: 21:50

Often children might have to move.

Stella: 21:53

And this is not.

Stella: 21:54

It's in fact, it's it's. You know, it's often what's going on for the adults. So, for example, maybe there isn't enough places and somebody says, oh, I'll be, I can take him for a week, but then we're going away on holiday or something, or people get sick, or you know, often, sometimes you get, you know, the match isn't right and in those situations, absolutely, if his match isn't right, it's. It's not good to force people to stay together. So it makes sense to move them on.

Stella: 22:21

But each time it's a loss, it's a loss and it's a loss. It's a loss and it's a loss. And you know, often children are maybe coming first time. Whenever children are considered at risk In the first instance, the trusts or the health authorities will in the first instance see if there's friends and family who can look after children. So that's often the first protocol and maybe, you know, it's not uncommon for children to maybe be around a few friends and family and then maybe that breaks down and then they're coming into what used to be called stranger care or non-kinship care. But they're effectively strangers to the children coming in there and maybe there's, you know, here, you are here, you know I can think of so many reasons children might have to move, you know know there's a number of things isn't there, it's.

Ness: 23:11

It could be that the child needs to be in a certain location for school. Yes, that needs to be close to birth family because, although they can't look after the children, you know they have a strong connection with siblings or their parents or grandparents. There may be a reason that the child has to move out of an area, because it's not safe to be near their family.

Ness: 23:30

It may be because there wasn't a foster carer to take them when they first become known to social services and the foster care that can take them can take them right now, but they live miles and miles away and then suddenly they're being moved to another foster carer who can take them on a short-term basis where the social services work out what the care plan might be, because children might not be known to social services and they have a duty of care always to. We know that children always do best with their family if their family are safe. So there's going to be processes that the, the trusts, are going to be working through and all this time these children are looking for or needing a space and we can't stress enough. There just simply aren't enough resources out there. By resources we do mean foster families from all walks of life, in all areas who might take, take these children.

Ness: 24:25

And I'm wondering, Stella, if you have anything to say about how therapeutic parenting might evolve or adapt depending on the age of the child, because of course we know that children have stages of development and as they get into the teenage years of pre-teens, they are, you know, they're coming into puberty. They're starting already to feel it, feeling their own embarrassment and need to separate and become independent. They may be wanting to rebel a little bit more. They're starting to find their own feet and maybe they're also learning. As they become older, then, maybe understanding a little bit more about what's happened to them, and I'm just wondering how a therapeutic parent might manage that yeah, yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

Stella: 25:15

I mean teenage years, or adolescence, or puberty, or even pre-teens. Now too it it. It's a challenge for all parents, I think because and part of the reason is the challenge is because the purpose of teenage years is the transition between being a child and being an adult, and so part of the purpose of teenage years is to detach from your parents and become this adult who's a capable adult in a way. The trouble is for children who come through the care system is that they often, with their foster cares, they maybe not still don't have those strong attachments, and so, and with even birth, family or whatever, the strong attachments might not be there. So you have this sort of detaching when I was never really properly attached, and so children can feel children and people can feel really at sea. At this time it's who's who's and what's what and whose family am I in? And I mean, in the teenage years you really are trying to start to find your place in the world. You know, becoming a specialist in the world, you know. So you're becoming a specialist and the things you're good at you start to give up the things you're really not interested in, which is all very well and good, but if you haven't really found those things, it can feel very, very, a very unstable time, um, and and aside from that, their brains are going through all sorts of stuff peers become a really important part of the relationship. The peer relationships start to overtake the adult child relationships and that's great if you're surrounded by good peers, you know peers who feel you're safe and connected. But that can be more challenging if, if you know, there's maybe people around you who are maybe more or less takers and things like that. Also for children, young people who do have attachment and trauma histories and sometimes they are other areas of their development may have been impacted. So, for example, it's not uncommon for children who have experienced trauma through their early development we talk about developmental trauma, so just in. So there's a lot more conversation these days about the impact of trauma on people generally and on adults and things like that. And it's a lot more out there in sort of general conversations and things like that.

Stella: 28:00

And I'll give you an example. So I don't know if you've ever watched Bear Grylls the Island? So you've ever watched Bear Grylls the island? So you know Bear Grylls, the outdoor pursuit fella do you know him? So he has this TV programme and he puts these people on an island. He's not there, by the way. He's off in a hotel somewhere.

Stella: 28:19

But he puts these people on an island and they're supposed to survive by their wits and, you know, survive, catching their food and building their shelters and things. And there was a few series ago, there was this woman who'd come on and she had been, she'd been a soldier in afghanistan or something like that, and she'd lost the lower part of her leg on in a landmine and had this awful, um, you know, ptsd, post-traumatic stress disorder and things like that. But she'd had the best um, um, uh, support and recovery. And she, she'd, you know, she now was landing on this island with the new prosthetic leg and she was great on it. And she, she, she said, look, I've been through all the therapy and stuff and here I am, I've survived, and she was great and you know you'd want her on your team, she could build the shelters and do all those things.

Stella: 29:07

And here she was, the strong, powerful woman, until the night of a storm and there was this big electrical storm, thunder and lightning, and this strong, capable, survivor woman went from this to a quivering wreck on the floor, crying out in pain for a leg that wasn't there, and I remember watching that going oh, my goodness, if that's what trauma does to your body. If you're, you know. You know, first of all, you're an adult. She's trained and chosen. Yes, she had to go to war and the bad thing happened, but she also had the best support that the army and all could provide and thought she'd healed. But and she was able to say I know that's just a storm, but my body's experiencing the impact of, of the original trauma. Because what trauma does to you? It sets your whole body to expect to be ready for what's coming next. And she could tell logically I know that is, but I can't stop the feeling. And so therapeutic parenting is all about recognizing what's going on in the feelings. Yes, the bad stuff has happened in the past. I can't stop the feeling. And so therapeutic parenting is all about recognizing what's going on in the feelings. Yes, the bad stuff has happened in the past. We can't change that. But we can start to pay attention to how is the child feeling right now. And I remember watching that woman and thinking if that's what that does to an adult woman, what does trauma do to our little children who've experienced all the bad stuff, and not just once, not just one-offs? I mean, yes, there's maybe been one-offs, but there's also been. It has been throughout their development. So because it's been throughout their development, is impacting their brain connections. It's impacting how their brains have developed.

Stella: 30:43

Children are often a lot of. Our children are often wired to expect the worst. It was described to me once and I thought this was useful, is it's lot of. Our children are often wired to expect the worst. It was described to me once and I thought this was useful.

Stella: 30:50

Is it's as if our children have been raised in a shark tank.

Stella: 30:55

And if you're raised in a shark tank, you, you respond as if there's sharks in the water.

Stella: 31:01

You're raised in the shark tank, you're good at avoiding the sharks.

Stella: 31:05

But the thing is with fostering, you then take the child out of the shark tank and you put them in a lovely in our lovely safe swimming pools. You know, as a foster care and a doctor, you're helping. You know all the checks have gone through, you've been assessed, you've been proven to be good enough to be able to parent these children and you get this child, comes into your lovely safe swimming pool, but the children are still acting and reacting as if they're expecting sharks. You know, and that's that as a therapeutic parent or as any parent, that's. That's hard. If your child doesn't trust you, it's very hard to to parent them. Sometimes we sort of assume trust with children but the a lot of these children don't automatically trust you. We have to go a long way and create a very predictable you know, a predictable, even boring home sometimes, to enable children to start to feel safe and connected and to learn that it's not you know, that we're not the sharks that were there to help them to, you know.

Ness: 32:07

Yes, I think that's a very good tool. That we have learned, isn't it? Is that you know, a stable, consistent timetable can be very containing. It can allow a child to feel safe because they know what to expect and, if you can still see me, the sun's coming through it looks like you have a divine glow around the experience, isn't it?

Stella: 32:31

yeah, some sort of angel has come through, not?

Ness: 32:33

being not being pulled up by aliens or anything, it's just the sun coming through the other side. Um, so yes, I think there is something isn't there about, about that, that connection, and I and I just wanted to come back to, um, you know, being hardwired, we, we often talk about the, you know frontal executive functioning, which happens at the, the, you know the brain, which we know hasn't fully developed, or 25 anyway, or around then.

Stella: 33:01

Yeah, so so with them the way in which our I suppose what this is one of the things we look at a little bit more in training is looking at how our brains work, how our brains and our bodies work and how those are connected, and really the back part of your brain this is really and please, if there's any brain experts out there, don't pull me up on this but the back part of your brain is is really about survival. It's, it's, that's, it's all the stuff that keeps you going your, your heart and your lungs and your breathing. It all happens automatically, you don't even have to think about it. You know um, and it's also associated with what's called your fight flight freeze responses. So if you know a big um, if the fire alarm goes off or something, it's the thing that stops you listening to me and makes you run out the door. Yeah, so you, you know, or, or if, or if you touch something hot and uh, it's a message goes from your fingertips up your arm, through your what's called your brain, stem back here and your, your survival brain, sends a message to say that was hot, but your hands already contracted. It keeps you safe. Yeah, and that's sort of survival. Those survival impulses. They just happen like that and and for us, so for many of our children they've got really good survival impulses. They've made it through, you know, and they've come to this point, so they're still alive. They've survived that and often their survival responses are really quite fast because they're expecting danger, they're expecting to have to keep themselves safe. They're expecting to have to keep themselves safe and I suppose the, the the downside of that is that the the last.

Stella: 34:53

So then you have what's called your midbrain, which is your emotional brain. It's really connected to a lot of your hormones and your um, the chemical messengers which regulate, uh, all the different bodily functions you have, and that's very much associated with your feel-good hormones and things like that, as well as your stress hormones and things like that. And then this front part of your brain, here, this frontal lobe, is associated with really your brain's management system. They talk about executive function, but it's your ability to um, to control your impulses, it's your, it's your working memory, it's your planning, organizing, it's your um, all those things that enable us to sort of put things in order and get and get stuff done. And, as ness says, this part of your brain doesn't mature until you're in your 20s anyway.

Stella: 35:51

But it's not uncommon for children with developmental trauma to really struggle with some of this stuff, because if you think much of their early brain development has been really paying attention to survival stuff, this stuff may have been somehow compromised and it's not. It's not dissimilar. In some situations, some of the things you will notice with children with developmental trauma often look like other things as well. So this part of the brain is also associated, is also connected to you know, associated. It's also connected to you know, um things like adhd and autism and um fetal alcohol. It often can impact this part of the brain too, and so sometimes children with developmental trauma may look like they have those things. Now, I'm and I'm no clinician, but what I'm saying is it there's an overlap because it all impacts this side, this part of our brain. So, but what I'm saying is it there's an overlap because it all impacts this side, this part of our brain. So, but what you will find with?

Stella: 36:53

I suppose one of the good things about healing of developmental trauma is a lot of this stuff can, with the right environment, with that sort of therapeutic parenting approach which is a ongoing, day-to-day approach, I suppose you know people sometimes think, oh, just send them to a therapist. A therapist once a week for the rest of their lives is not going to dramatically change their overall brain structure. However, day-to-day parenting can, day-to-day good enough parenting can. And, as nes says, that predictability if you can sort of introduce predictability into a child's day, into a child's not not just into the structure of their day, but into your response to things. So it's not just about having timetables and routines, it's about having predictability in the response, so children can know what to expect. So if they do something, this is what happens, you know. So those sort of boundaries, um, having predictable days is useful, but also having being predictable in response and I suppose this is one of the.

Stella: 37:58

The key things about therapeutic parenting approaches is that the, because it relies so much in relationship, it needs both parties, you know, involvement, and in order to be in good relationship with our children and young people, we have to be okay. We have to be okay. So a big stress with you know, with Bernardos, with our foster carers and adopters, is how important you are in the whole scenario. We need you to be okay because. So we pay a big focus on looking after our foster carers and adopters so that they can look after the children, because the whoever's spending the most time with those children are going to have the most influence on those children and they need to be okay. So recognizing, um, that I have a wee thing up.

Stella: 38:56

Um, you hear all these sort of things about self-care and how important self-care is, but it's also self-responsibility, it's recognizing the children need you to be at your best. So in order to get the best of you not what's left of you you've got to look after you, and often that's easier said than done, because we're always very good at doing things for other people and we think, oh, we'll have to, you know, put the children first. But unless you're okay, you can't actually do it, you know. So you have to be looking after yourself, knowing what your boundaries are, knowing when to say no, actually, that's not something I can do. Whatever, that's okay, you know.

Stella: 39:39

And, and I suppose I, I, I come at this from a place of having I don't want to say made that mistake, but let's say having learned from that mistake, in that I, you know, I'm a, I'm a single, single person and, uh, you know, I know, going through the assessment process and then finally getting child I was to finally adopt. I wanted to show that I could do it. All you know. I wanted to prove I don't need help, I can do it. I, you know, and I'm you know, I have a good support network and all those sorts of things, but to the point that I was afraid to ask for help in many ways and over and I suppose the thing about parenting a child who's a trauma history is they're bringing the impact of that trauma into your house and and if you know, and it's very easy for that to pass over to you and I think, because I was afraid to ask for help and stuff, I was.

Stella: 40:43

You know, I was struggling, I was struggling and I hung in there and I, you know, I read all the books and I that's how I got to do this stuff, because I was trying to find ways to cope with stuff. But I got to a place that wasn't very good and it was really when I started to recognize that asking for help is actually a strength. Asking for help was a strength, and seeking support and going to training and learning and all those things, that was what brought me back and I suppose you know that recovery from that helped me to look back and and say you know, look after yourselves through this whole, right from right, from through the assessment, right from the very start. You need to look after yourself, because the children need you to be okay. They don't need you. That's the you know. It's not that they don't need you, but they they.

Stella: 41:43

One of the things, the things I sort of say, is we need when our children are dysregulated, when our children are, you know, having a really hard time, they need us to share our calm, not join in their chaos. I'm really good at joining in the chaos and that didn't help. That just made things go from, you know, heightened and heightened, and heightened, and you know, and then my child was left feeling really bad. I was left feeling even worse and what I need to be able to do is I need to regulate myself first, and that, I suppose that's what therapeutic parenting does. It really pays attention to the needs of the adult as well as the needs of the child and it's recognizing that often children's um, often children um, they will bring because they're expecting the worst. It often can make you feel like the worst, you know, but often those feelings are not about you. They're about something that has happened previously, and it's being able to distance yourself from that too. Does that make?

Ness: 42:51

sense, that's great. I want to bring up a comment that's in our chat about but when you ask for help, social services, record this as you, not as a black mark that can be used back at you. And I kind of want to talk a little bit about that, because a really part of the assessment process is a reflection on our inquirers not just strengths but areas of vulnerability, because we have to be pragmatic. We want everyone who inquires to end up being a successful foster carer, but we also know that it takes a level of emotional resilience to be a foster carer, however much we want to help children. So a lot of the sort of the initial processes are about reflecting on strengths, where your support networks are, where you'd want help, because we want you to succeed.

Ness: 43:44

We also don't expect anyone to be perfect. We keep using the term good enough because we are imperfect by definition of being human, so we need to be able to be good enough definition of being human, so we need to be able to be good enough. And being good enough is also point is also being aware of where we might need a bit of support, and sometimes people come in and they don't have as strong a support network as we would like, and we might be able to team them up with someone else, with another foster family, and that has happened in the past and that's succeeded very well in the past. Do you have anything to add to that, stella on the back of?

Stella: 44:17

that what I, what I know, I know what you're saying, and what I would guess, too, is that it depends what you're asking for, because if and look, we said at the start the system isn't good enough, there's not enough resources out there. There's no great pool of respite carers waiting to, you know, give you lots of weekends off or anything like that. You know that. You know, when it comes to those sorts of resources, those are limited. What, what I would say, though, is, if you're asking for help in relation to learning more, finding out more and attending more training and things like that, you know, I really want to learn about that, being open, and don't get me wrong, I don't mean that's not good to ask for those sorts of solid, sort of tangible supports in relation to respite, but, realistically, I know they're not there as much as they could be, you know, but if so, I think, if they don't have it, if they don't have it, they'll struggle to provide that to you, but it should never be a black mark against you. I mean, isn't that ridiculous? You know, if people are doing fostering adoption, they should be getting as much support as they possibly get, and so so you know, it does make me sad that that it does feel like that.

Stella: 45:40

And I know I know when I was going through assessment and then when I finally got the, the child I was, you know, even my friends and family were like, well, you're not happy now, do you know, surely you got what you wanted, sort of thing. You know, just get on with it. But actually, you know, I'd been a teacher, I'd been an okay teacher, I've been a brilliant auntie. But when my wee fella came through the door he did not let me be the parent I thought I was going to be. I thought I'd be something like do you remember Mrs Walton and John Boy and Mary Ellen and all that? I thought I was going to be some sort of wonder parent.

Stella: 46:18

And you know, my child did not play out by the rules. That's not how he, he wasn't like that. And so I had to learn how to do it very differently. I couldn't be the same parent that my sisters were to their birth children and I thought that was very, very hard. But I can't, you know, I'll never say to you don't ask for help. Um, it's really hard, it's I'm. It's very disappointing to hear that, but I'm not. I'm, but at the same time, I'm not surprised because I know the resources aren't always there, do you?

Ness: 46:51

know when I stop the recording, perhaps we can have a. You can just give us a bit more info if you'd like to. Um, I, because we've got about 10 minutes left and it was something I wanted to ask you to talk about, stella, and I've completely gone out of my mind. Oh, I know what I wanted to say in relation to therapeutic parenting. Parenting, one of the challenges that families face is what it might look like to their support network, to extended family, because you know you might have some child having an absolute meltdown, because I think you understand what I'm getting at this way.

Stella: 47:29

So when my wee fella started in primary one, he would go into school, okay, so he'd been with me for a fair amount of time, but he'd go into school, okay, and um, but when he came out of school, and he behaved in school learning, but when he came out of school at the end of the school day, all the other kids would run up to their, their parents, and, and, you know, give them big hugs and all this sort of stuff, and my fellow would come up to me and he would kick me in the shins as hard as he could. I hate you and I'm laughing, but you can imagine what that felt like in front of all the other parents, right, and and, and I could see them going oh, he's the doctor, you know, talking behind their hand. He's a doctor or he's fostered, whatever it was. And I just thought, oh, I, I implying something wrong with him and implying there's something wrong with her because she's not a real parent, right?

Stella: 48:21

Uh, no, they weren't doing that, but that's how I felt they were. They might have been doing it, I don't know what they were doing, but I, I, it felt awful and I would be like taking him by the hand into the car. You know, get in the car quick, sort of thing. And this went on and on and on and I spoke to the school about it and they were like, oh no, he's fine with us, also implying this is something you're doing right, you're doing wrong.

Stella: 48:44

You know it's something to do with you and it was awful. It was awful and I dreaded school pickups because I didn't know it was going and it took a long time to work out. But this is, this is one of the things about the therapeutic parenting approach. It's about being curious, it's about wondering what the heck is going on for this child. What is going on, what are they experiencing? And it took a long time, but we got there in the end. And I say we, I mean me and him, yeah, and there was a couple of things going on.

Stella: 49:14

So one of the things when he was small he would never have said to me mommy, I'm hungry. He just, he didn't connect that feeling in his tummy with hunger, he just got hangrier and hangrier. Do you know what hangry is? Hungry, angry, yeah, if you know what hangry is, you know, oh, I just need to eat something to feel better. Do you know? I need something? Get the blood sugar. But if you don't know what that feeling is, it just feels terrible.

Stella: 49:44

So I'd sent him another lovely lunch at the start of the school day and he'd had his breakfast, sent him in a lovely lunch, but he was a real chatter, chatterbox. He hadn't eaten his break, hadn't eaten his lunch, so two o'clock he was hungry, really, really hungry. And so and the first person, you know who he trusted when he came out of school was me, and he just let it all go. So he'd been holding it together in school, let it all go out in me, and the other thing that was going on was that that sense of you said you'd look after me. And here you are abandoning me in school every day. I'm not even sure you're going to come back and get me. So the assumption, you know, I I sort of assumed always he knows I'm coming back to get him. But he didn't have that. It wasn't internalized in a way. So again, I hate you because of that. So whenever I worked this out, there was these sort of couple of things going on. When he came out of school, the first thing we came out picking the shin. I hate you. The first thing why did I put my arm around him? To reconnect? I was sticking a chocolate biscuit in his mouth and I could see the other parents going. Oh, my god, she was bad before but she's worse now, do you know? But what I was trying to do was first of all reconnect and meet those basic needs. And I tried apples and all sorts of things. Didn't work. You needed something to get this blood sugar up again, to make that fit. It's okay, I've got you. I've got you. I missed you too. Here we are. I told you I'd be back for you. So you're reconnecting, meeting that basic need and and that was sort of hitting the survival brain. So you have to sort of go from from bottom up, so survival brain. And then I'd get him back in the car and say do you know something?

Stella: 51:32

It's never okay to hit your mummy, because it's not about excusing behaviors just because we know where they're from. It's not about letting children away with things because we know that they've had a hard time. That's never going to serve them. It's about separating the feeling from the behavior. It's okay to feel angry. It's okay to feel tired. It's okay to feel hangry or thirsty or whatever it is. It's not okay to do angry. It's okay to feel tired. It's okay to feel hangry or thirsty, whatever it is. It's not okay to do those things because it's that and so that it's sort of taken away, the shame associated with the behavior supposed to be, and it all wrapped up in one thing, because often society responds more to our behaviors than it doesn't think about our feelings, and therapeutic parenting is very much paying attention to feelings, what's going on for them right now? Many of those feelings are triggered by past experiences and that's the hard part and they and children often haven't had the same emotional models about how to manage those big behaviors and they're not able to do that. So it's about really trying to pay attention, be curious what's going on, work it out and, as I say, that's that nurturing approach. We're here for you and connected to you.

Stella: 52:43

We can repair the relationship and this is another big thing about therapeutic parenting it's really about recognizing the power of repair. So, with our children's previous experience, that what has happened is the bad thing has happened and it's been so bad they've been removed from their parents. You know, and that's catastrophic in in terms of, uh, you know child's experience and what we are trying to do is show them the bad thing. You know bad thing can happen, but, but we can repair our relationship. We can repair, repair, repair. And when you're trying to, you know, um, and that's what builds resilience, if you, if you're showing, you know bad things gonna happen, but we can overcome it. The bad thing's gonna happen, but we can overcome it. We're still going to be here for you. That's what builds resilience, because many of our children aren't very resilient. Do you know? They haven't had the good models that they needed, good enough models that they needed, and it they're sort of catastrophize things. Um, I think I've gone off the point there now, but I think that was absolutely perfect, I think.

Ness: 53:50

To summarize and we'll we'll come to questions after I finish recording, but for the sake of the podcast, to summarize therapeutic parenting is really about creating connection with children who perhaps haven't experienced that or have had those connections deeply disrupted in other parts of their early development, and so it's been curious, we've being curious about behavior and we're trying to engage with the feelings that might be behind, or the thoughts that might be behind the way a child might be acting, because they may not even have the words, they may not even understand what's going on for themselves. Like your son at the gate, he was being aggressive with you, the safe person, because he was hungry, but he couldn't identify that in his own body, probably because of disassociation from trauma in an earlier part of his life. So that reconnecting that helping a child reconnect with parts of themselves that they might not have been safe to connect to, and being that safe, consistent presence in their life in a very, very mindful way, that sounds easy. Where do we sign? Okay, look.

Ness: 55:04

Thank you so much, stella. I really, really appreciate you spending this time with us today. I'm just going to stop the recording and if anyone's got any questions or wants to chat. We've got about five minutes. Thanks for listening to this episode of Barnardo's fostering and adoption ni podcast. To learn more about fostering and adoption with us, search for Barnardo's online or find the link in our program description. We love to hear from you your thoughts, questions or future topic requests. To do so, you can contact us at bfani at barnardo'suk. You will find our email address also in the show notes.