Barnardo's Fostering & Adoption NI

BFANI ON TOUR! From IVF to Adoption

• Barnardo's Fostering & Adoption NI

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What if the path to parenthood looked different than you'd imagined? Join us on a heartfelt exploration of adoption in the UK, featuring Emma, an adopter who has journeyed through the highs and lows of IVF, alongside Sharon, the adoption lead from Northern Ireland, and Kat, the Scottish adoption lead. Together, we unpack the adoption process, especially following the heartbreak of fertility struggles.
 
This heartfelt conversation doesn't shy away from the complex emotions tied to infertility and adoption, such as grief and anger and we explore how these emotions can impact relationships. We also dive into the practical aspects of the adoption process, from assessment to panel. Whether you're contemplating adoption or simply want to understand more, we invite you to listen and connect with Barnardo's Fostering and Adoption in Northern Ireland for further insights.

To read more on Emma's journey, you can find her book, A Pastoral Theology of Childlessness here: https://scmpress.hymnsam.co.uk/books/9780334060512/a-pastoral-theology-of-childlessness

Learn more about fostering and adoption with Barnardo’s:
https://www.barnardos.org.uk/get-support/fostering-and-adoption

To learn more about fostering and adoption in NI, visit our Linktr.ee:
https://linktr.ee/barnardosfosteringni

To ask a question, give us some feedback or make a topic request, email us at:
BFANI@barnardos.org.uk

Foster belonging with us!

Ness:

Welcome to the Barnardo's Fostering and Adoption Northern Ireland podcast. Each episode we will meet families and team members from right across our fostering and adoption services. We're aiming to get behind the scenes so we can learn more about what it's really like to foster or adopt. So welcome to the Barnardo's Fostering, Adoption and Northern Ireland event from IVF to adoption. It's really lovely that you took the time out this evening to spend time with us. The reason we wanted to do this event is because a lot of people have questions around IVF and completing family biologically before they come into the adoption process and maybe sometimes a bit stumped by some of the questions that they might get asked in the assessment process. So this is really going to be the focus of tonight's conversation and we'll definitely be taking questions afterwards.

Ness:

Let me just introduce you to who's on the screen at the moment. We have Emma Emma to the right of me, who is an adopter who has been through IVF, so she'll be talking about her own experiences. I've also got Sharon, who's the adoption lead from Northern Ireland, and Kat, who's the adoption lead in Scotland. So let's start off with Sharon. Can you tell me a little bit about what the adoption process looks like for us Now. I probably should point out that we are foster to adopt, and it might be a little bit different in other parts of the UK.

Sharon:

Yeah, yeah, so we go through the foster to adopt route, which is also known as dual approval In Northern Ireland, which basically, um it's children for whom adoption is the plan and that has been decided by social services and it still needs to be ratified by the court. Um. So usually people will call us up, they can inquire online and we will go through the essential criteria and give them a little bit of information, um, on that first phone call um, and we run information sessions. So we, at the point where people decide they would like to find out a little bit more, um, we usually run an information session online, um, and that's just to tell people a little bit about bernardo's and a little bit about what to expect and if they want to adopt, and a little bit about more information around what that would look like and practically essentially what's to follow next, and that just gives people a chance as well to ask questions at the outset.

Sharon:

And quite a lot of the time we have people who aren't sure and they just want to find out a little bit more. They might not be ready to proceed and that's fine, so we might just be giving them a little bit of a steer at that point and maybe some advice about whether we think the timing is right for them or if there's any concerns we would have at the outset. We'll just be open and honest with people and so essentially, people, I suppose, are trying to get a bit of a gauge around whether they feel and that that's something that they would be able to do, and so if they're still interested after that, then we would give them and they would have a form to fill in, an expression of interest form, and then we would send out one of our social workers to come and meet with them and an initial home visit and that's the stage where we would gather a bit more information then around generally, like their own circumstances, like what they work as what they do. Are there any health concerns, why they want to adopt, and maybe the difference as well between adoption and fostering, as not everyone's clear about that. So maybe initially thinking about what's the right rip for them and, yeah, thinking about even practical things at that early stage around you know, their support network, who's around them, and have they talked to those around them about this yet or, do you know, really just trying to get them to think a wee bit more in detail about that um, and then after that, a supervising social worker will go back and we'll speak to our management team about them, um, and just um, decide whether we feel it would be okay to progress, and at that stage, if there's anything we're not sure about, we'll go back, um to the applicants and discuss that. If there's anything we're not sure about sometimes it might be a health matter or something that has come up, um, or do you know? We're maybe not sure about their motivation or the timing, um, sometimes that happens and we'll go back and discuss that with them and see whether we feel this is right for them, um, and then after that, um, if they still proceed, then we start like medicals and references. There's loads of things that people need to go through police checks and things like that. Those are all just standard checks that need done, and people will be made aware of that, and so that process will begin and we'll also invite people then to our preparation course for adoption.

Sharon:

So we do that jointly with fostering and adoption applicants and at that point you don't have to have decided if you're unsure about fostering or adoption, and you can come along to that and have more to think about it at that stage. And then we give a lot more information at that course, which is typically run around four sessions or so, typically two days and two evenings, and we speak to people a lot about why children come into care, what the issues and the challenges can be, what the processes are and essentially what to expect if you foster or adopt a child. And it also is a lovely opportunity to meet other people and get to know people who are also on the journey and again, ask questions. Questions are great at any point of the journey, um, so again, just that opportunity to get to know more people in the team and have those conversations with with staff. We also run alongside um, usually one of our foster carriers, um, and we have, you know, plenty of people who have fostered and adopted as well. So, um, we'll run alongside um, usually an experienced foster carer that can answer a lot of questions too and provide their own experiences, which is lovely for people. And then after that, um, people are still interested. Again, there's always an opt-out at any stage if people you know people do come along to that and they might decide it's not for them or it's not now, which is fine, um, but if people do want to carry on, then um, then that's when the home study would begin, um, which is the um, I suppose, the most intense stage of the assessment, when we would complete maybe around eight home visits or so, um, and find out a lot more then about the, the applicants, and that's really around trying to ensure that um, adoption is the right route for them and to make sure that we feel that they would be, um, the right people to adopt.

Sharon:

We know that so many of the children who are coming in for adoption have been through so much. They have many additional needs and we need to make sure that that's robust and that people are prepared for that as well and the applicants understand what that's going to entail. So we will really look at their background and what they have been through and really we're not necessarily looking for people who have been um, who haven't had anything difficult happen to them or who have not had any difficult life experiences. We have a whole different range of people that come forward. So, um, it could be that they have had, you know, really positive life experiences and they can use that because they've had it, you know, a great upbringing and they can bring that. But also we have people who've been through really challenging times and then we can evidence how resilient they've been and how they've overcome that. So everyone comes from a very different place, but it's more about looking at what they have done with what has been their life story and how those things they have been through can prepare them for adoption.

Sharon:

So that typically lasts a few months and then people would be brought to a panel and that then is a decision is made then by a group of people, a recommendation around whether they should proceed, and we won't bring people through the panel unless we feel that that will be approved. And so that's sort of the formal and where the formal recommendation is made. And then there's one more level, the agency decision maker, who then ratifies that decision. And so our agency decision maker is called Helen Brown, so she read all of that information, she'll read the assessment, which is very, very lengthy, and they'll get all the references and they'll be able to have access to the medical information about the applicant. So they'll see all of that and then make the final decision and a letter will be sent and then you're at the start of potentially then matching with a child and considering then who's the best child to be placed? And then trying to find um, to get the real, the real stuff going there excellent.

Ness:

That's a really good sort of thumbnail of the whole process. Thank you so much, Sharon. Um, I want to come over to Kat in Scotland, which is now your new name, Kat in Scotland and I'm just wondering if you'd like to add anything to that, because your service will be different again, wouldn't it?

Kat:

is a wee bit different. Yeah, I suppose a lot of what you were saying there, Sharon, would be the same with ourselves, the main difference being we are just adoption, so we wouldn't be looking at that. You know dual approval. Our approval is foster carers with the purpose of adoption, and that's due to when a child first comes home to the family. They fall under foster care regulations until the kind of legal route catches up and the adoption order is granted.

Kat:

I suppose a wee overview in terms of my role within that. So I'm the recruitment officer and family finder with the Scottish team. What that means is I undertake those initial calls and initial visits from prospective adopters. So again, like you were saying, the questions that we go through around, what's got them to that point, you know, if they're ready to start, the motivation, support, network, relationships, all these kind of aspects come under that. We then do the initial visit. Again, the assessment period is very much the same. There's a prep training, preparation for adoption, training that our prospective adopters would come along to for ourselves. It's three full days, so slightly different, but again the same idea.

Kat:

The assessment period, as you've mentioned, can be so intense and I think that's why it's making sure adopters are in the best place for that because, like you say, the visiting, the assessing social worker will meet with them on a regular basis. There's often homework to complete as well, and we also run something called monthly virtual sessions, stage one and stage two. So that's for all our prospective adopters that are coming through. So for us, stage one is when things like checks and medicals are being completed and stage two is that, that formal assessment process. So what the monthly sessions allow is adopters to come along. We we vary it from lunchtime to evening we have families that have gone through the process before join us for these sessions, and a lot of that is around that peer support, that shared experience, that real life experience of what it's been like not only to go through the process, to go to panel, what family finding has been like, but also what that lived experience is like understanding that lifelong journey that comes with adoption.

Kat:

In my role, I then pick the prospective adopters up after panel and we look at what's called family finding. So again, focusing on the children that are waiting at that point for their family and what matches we can make. What are the similarities, what are the challenges, what can our adopters offer in terms of support? Where are their limitations? And I think, sharon, you'd also mentioned the complexities that adopters can come with their lives, you know, and what that can look like and the real benefits there can be with that resilience and that understanding.

Kat:

Um, you know perhaps similar things that the children have gone through, and it's just making sure our doctors are prepared that that can also be a trigger for them as well. You know, when they have the child in place, acknowledging the impact that can feel, um with them, and I think throughout the whole process, what we're looking for for adopters is that open and honest relationship and, equally, what we provide is a safe place, a non-judgmental place. We're not trying to judge people. If we're counselling out, it's for good reasons within. It's maybe not the right time for them.

Ness:

They've maybe got a wee bit more work to do before they come to us, or maybe didn't have that full understanding of what adoption was, or the children waiting well, I mean one of the things I wanted to just come back to my brain was just thinking there about something that Sharon said, which was you know, sometimes we need to go back to a potential applicant about things we're not sure about, and sometimes that might be about motivation and sometimes it might be about timing and, in light of the framing of this session today, I'm wondering if you'd say a bit more about that, either of you.

Sharon:

Yeah, well, sometimes we get applicants who maybe we have the sense that it's maybe not something they have thought about fully or enough and maybe they have a little bit more exploration to do, and especially when they have been through something that is difficult. So and that's, I suppose, where we're heading today, talking about IVF and fertility issues because anytime there's anything that someone has been through that is very significant and we would ask them to give it a little bit of time to process, and that's something we do from the very first phone call when we're going through essential criteria with people, we will ask people if there's anything they have been through that has been something that has been particularly difficult or traumatic, anything that has happened in roughly the past year or so, and sometimes that could be a significant bereavement or it could be something like going through fertility issues or IVF.

Sharon:

It could be a relationship breakdown.

Sharon:

And sometimes we have phone calls from someone who has maybe just been through a divorce very recently and we just feel that's not the right time for people to proceed, because they may be feeling very emotional and it might not be a place the best time when they're able to think rationally because there has been so much emotion at play.

Sharon:

So it's really about giving people a chance to process any significant life change or life event and so that they are in the right place, because the the um, the home study especially it is it is very intense. People need to be in the right place to be able to start to make sense of their own journey and think about how that could impact on the child. And it's also very important that this is right for the children, because the children who we are placing have been through very significant events in their life to bring them to the need for adoption. So people need to be able to show that they are resilient enough for that and that they are in a good place themselves. So sometimes we might just ask people to wait a little while until they process those things yeah, that makes sense.

Ness:

Have you got anything to add to that Kat?

Kat:

Yeah, I was just going to say I suppose focusing on, you know, fertility treatments and IVF, um, it's not a one size fits all in terms of that process of grief and we do look at it on an individual basis and I think even thinking about IVF in terms of the impact it has physically on the body. You know that recovery time being able to you know if you're in a relationship grieve together, come back together, being able to process and talk about it. And personally I've had two friends that have gone through IVF one successful, one unsuccessful and I've seen firsthand, you know what what that can feel like in the relationship, all the feelings that come with that. And so it's explored a lot throughout the initial call around whether now is the right time. And you can tell sometimes by how people are able to speak about it, how they're able to talk about what's happened for some people that have gone through IVF, perhaps before the last transfer of the embryo they've already known it's not going to work. So that kind of grief process has started a lot sooner. So it might only be six months for them and actually they're ready to focus on adoption.

Kat:

And again, like you're saying, Sharon, just keeping in mind that we're looking for those families, for the children waiting, and we have our adopters in a really strong place to be able to focus on that assessment.

Kat:

And then you know, I think with the process it can feel like it can take a long time and then all of a sudden things go very quickly so it can go from you know you're in assessment and panel to looking at transitions for children coming into the home and actually you don't want to get caught away and running away with that without that chance to process what you've gone through and the impact that that has. And also acknowledging the potential impact that can have further down the line when children do come home and the grief, that or loss that you can still feel for it not being birth children and that's not taking away the love or care for the children that are there but acknowledging those very real feelings that we have as as humans, that that we have to process. And again, encouraging people to talk with their worker, to talk with their partner, their support network, and all these feelings are very real and very valid and it certainly won't be the first person to feel that, although it can feel like that for the prospective adopters yeah, that's.

Ness:

That's some really great insights, kat. I want to come now to Emma. So you're one of our adopters in the southeast and would you tell us a bit about your story, because you, you did go, you did have your own IVF journey, didn't you?

Emma:

Yeah, we had two cycles of IVF.

Emma:

Um, there's a sense in which we were lucky because it was really obvious that it wasn't working, and I know from what I've read, from what I've heard, some people, you know, can have multiple cycles and there's always the chance that the next one might work.

Emma:

And that's part of the difficulty, because you do have to, for own sanity and finances, at some point have to say enough is enough. Um, we, we got two cycles funded on the NHS, but it was really obvious that they weren't working. And and after the second cycle, um, we were told there's no clinical reason to continue. So we had a hard stop, um, and then I went through a grieving process and we knew we were interested in adoption and we knew that, generally speaking, it was expected that you wait at least six months after finishing fertility treatment to think about adoption, and for us, it was nearly a year, um, so it was summer 2018 that our second cycle failed. Um, no, 2017, longer ago than I remember, um, and then, so it was in the August that this cycle failed, and the following may, we went to our first information evening to find out about adoption that process of letting go of having your own biological children.

Ness:

I mean it takes time it took a year, and then you came into the application process with Barnardo's. What were you feeling at that point?

Emma:

Yeah, it was really tough and I did a lot of grieving and actively grieved for much of that time, um, I was fortunate in that I was able to get an unpaid sabbatical from work, um, you know, when the, when the second round of IVF failed and my work were brilliant, they let me have a week off straight away, no questions asked, um. But then I went back to work and I was still just really tearful and really sad and just not coping and we agreed on a three months, um, three months away from work, um, and so sort of January through to April, um, after the, the summer that the IVF had failed, I was away from work and um, and actually work helped to pay for the cost of counselling as well, which was which was really helpful too. I had a fabulous counsellor. She was just astonishing and actually it turned out she too was an adoptive parent just one of those weird instances, um, and I I was really sad and really anxious I I am interesting that you talked earlier about, you know, you don't have to have had no negative experiences to be a good adopter. I have an anxiety disorder. I'm very open about that. I was very open about that through assessment, um, and so during the grieving process you know the anxiety was part of that um, and I did a lot of reading as well.

Emma:

Just people are different, people grieve differently, and I spent a lot of time in the library trying to find everything I could um and read, found some great books published quite a long time ago, but some great books with just lots and lots of people's stories, um, and really really honest stories of um.

Emma:

There's this American writer who advertised in these magazines for people to write to her who'd had experiences of um infertility, and about 500 people wrote her letters and then she just wrote a book based on the letters that people had written her. And that really helped me because it just gave me permission to feel really sad and really angry. And I was really angry, um, and by the time I went back to work, I I wasn't OK, but I'd done a lot of grieving. And I remember having a conversation at the toddler group run by the church where I worked, and I just got into a conversation with someone and I ended up talking about my fertility. I can't remember why. It must have been quite a deep conversation and I said I'm at peace with it and, as I said that I realised that it was true.

Emma:

I'm an external processor.

Emma:

So I realise what I think when I say it. And she said, yeah, I can see that. And that was an important moment for me of realising it's not that it's OK, but I've made my peace.

Ness:

Can I ask Emma how did you process that anger? Because I think that's an important emotion when we're talking about dealing with children who are traumatized and they're coming into an adoption space or a fostering space. You know they often hold a lot of anger in themselves and they might push against connection, often because of the traumas that they've experienced and the way it presents. And you know this is one of the reasons why we have to have very resilient people who come forward to take on, look up, looked after children, because they're likely to push your buttons and make you feel angry because they they know what it is like to live with something that's not fair. So I'm just wondering how you let go of that anger, because it's not always easy to let go of anger.

Emma:

No, I, so I read, one of the many things I read, I read about the grief process. You know it's the grief cycle. It's kind of been misrepresented. You know, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross talks about denial and bargaining and anger and acceptance and of course it's not a linear process. People cycle back, they go through different phases at different times. But what helped me was she. She writes about anger and how much anger is part of grieving and she also writes about I mean, this is a book she wrote back in the 60s, but she writes about how anger is often the hardest part of grieving for other people to be around.

Emma:

So for me it was finding spaces where I was able to be angry, where I was allowed to express what I felt. So I had a couple of friends who didn't try and make me feel better and this is one of the a really important lesson that I learned when I was grieving and actually has become really important in parenting my children too. It's recognizing that it's counterintuitive, because if someone's really upset or really angry, there's a natural impulse to try and make them feel better or try and make tell them it's okay. And actually if you don't try and tell someone it's okay, if you just accept how they're feeling, it actually makes it better in a weird sort of way, you know. So. Not everyone was able to be around me when I was angry. You know, some people just couldn't cope with how angry I was. But those who were able to hear it and not try and make me feel better and just accept how I felt, they really helped me. Um, because, um, because I'd able been able to express it and and, in that way, work through it.

Emma:

And so with with my own children, I don't get it right all the time, but I you know if, particularly when they're feeling really sad, my impulse is to to try and make it better and say it's okay or try and fix it. But actually, with our children, they're all deeply traumatized. Their primary bond has been severed and that's never going to be OK. That doesn't mean that they won't heal. You know, experience some healing and and have a great life and have, you know, deep and important relationships. But but adoption doesn't fix what's broken in their lives. So it's been very important to me as a parent to just accept their anger and their sadness. And, yeah, what has happened to you isn't OK, it's really rubbish. It would have been better for you if you'd been able to stay with your birth family, but you couldn't, and we talk very openly about why that wasn't possible.

Ness:

It's so interesting. I'm so glad you're sharing all this, Emma, because actually, what you're picking up on is the qualities that we need in our families because, in the same way that your friends were supporting you when you were going through your grief process and had to be a container for your anger, allow you to feel your anger in a safe space, similarly with these, these children often are asked or are required to be a container for their children, and I really like what you said.

Ness:

You know, adoption doesn't necessarily fix what's broken in their lives. It's it's coming to terms with that. And I wonder sometimes if you know, when we're going through the process of trying to complete a family and we're struggling with that, we might be holding on to a dream of what a family might be. You know, the child who isn't born is a perfect child. The child that doesn't come into existence is the idealized child, the idealized child. And when we're moving and switching gears and thinking about completing a family differently, through adoption or fostering, we are then dealing with the hard reality that these children, as you say, have had a primary disconnect in their attachment, and that is going to present itself. And it might present itself even if you adopted a baby. It might present later down the line. This is going to be something they have to live with. So I think that's a really helpful thing to point out. And, Kat or Sharon, have you got anything to add to that?

Sharon:

No, I think what you said, Emma, is uh, um, yeah, it's. It was lovely to hear you sharing so openly and I think it does bring home. Do you know what we say around giving yourself space to grieve? Because when you have been through IVF and you have been trying for a long time for a child, that that is a grieving process. So it does take time to come out of that and we don't want people to make snap judgments um, in that in that time, because they need space you know you need space to process that really and then make a a more informed decision, I suppose, as you start to work through that.

Sharon:

So I think that's it's been really lovely to hear you share so openly about that, because it is something that's that's very difficult, and I think we're aware of that when people do film and who have been through that, we realize that it's very difficult for people and some people maybe are still in the early stages of that and it wouldn't be right to just start this journey with them. They need that space and time and to to really process what they've been through and what they want to do next. And because adoption isn't for everybody, it's not the next natural step necessarily, and I think there's nearly a perception that, well, that's the next thing to do, but it's not necessarily the right decision for everybody and it won't be the decision everyone comes to. So it's just making a decision that's right for you and your family as well, about what's the right thing yeah, I think.

Ness:

I think the important thing to understand about the assessment process is it's not a test. We want you to succeed, but primarily we are thinking about these children and what they need, and we just need to make sure that the adults coming forward to support them are going to be resilient enough, have enough stability in their lives and understand realistically the kinds of challenges you might actually see that, um, that may come into through your door. Have you got anything to add to that?

Kat:

I suppose I was just thinking about you saying you know what your grieving process looked like and I think that does just highlight how it's so different for everyone. You know and what that's going to look like, and and the same with in terms of what that time scale is going to look like for for how long you need, and I think that's conversations I have a lot during those initial calls because people weren't very sick, and we come back to you on this day, three months later, um, and it is around those conversations about what are they going to do in that time period, what's going to help them, what's going to help them process it? Um, and yeah, that there's not a guideline to it. Something else I was thinking about, I suppose, when you were talking about the anger aspect, is is certainly I've noticed in the last year or so, an additional layer to that anger, because there have been people that have been waiting for IVF in Scotland and then, unfortunately, covid hit, which then caused delays within their IVF and for some of the prospective adopters I've spoken to by the point that things were up and running again. They were then over the age threshold for IVF, so unfortunately, that's, you know, completely skewed what their idea was.

Kat:

And again that you know frustration, that anger, that you know why was that timing like that? Why did that happen to me? You know that's a reason. It's been taken away from me that last can of hope. So it is something I'm very conscious of. You know, when dealing with people and even asking them to wait additional time to process that, you know how that can feel to them. It's another delay, another, another frustration, um, yeah.

Ness:

Emma, what was the assessment process like for you?

Emma:

I, I, um, the actual, um home visits and the conversational part of it. I actually weirdly enjoyed. It was it was really it was a kind of a cross between therapy and a police interview. I love that.

Ness:

That's the best description I've ever heard.

Emma:

You're kind of really conscious. You want to, you want to look good, but I mean, we were. We were very honest in assessment and we've been told we were extremely honest, and it's sort of after you think, oh wow, it's not everyone quite as honest as that, and I I found that the paperwork side of it I really struggled with. I'm not I'm not a fan of paperwork, but once we got the paperwork done the actual conversational part of it and maybe because I'd processed my grief, I did, I wasn't triggered by it. You know it was, it was a positive thing I did. I wasn't triggered by it, you know it was, it was a positive thing, I mean.

Emma:

What I would say, though, is there's elements of, there's elements of being an adopted parent I just had no idea about until the children moved in. So you know, when you talk about looking for people with resilience, you you can't really know how you'll cope until you're in it. So I guess, as people assessing people for adoption, you're looking for their potential, but no one really knows, and and For me certainly in the early months, my love for my children was like a grim determination I will not let you down. You are not going anywhere. This is permanent and yeah, just total commitment. And, and you know, the fluffy feelings and the nice moments come a bit later on

Ness:

What advice might you give to someone who is currently thinking maybe they've recently gone through that IVF process or recently realized this is not going to work out for them, but they're interested in adoption and you know, bearing in mind we've already discussed that the grieving process can take different amounts of time for different people what sort of insights might you offer to someone in that position?

Emma:

so I talked with my husband a bit about this and about so my children occasionally will say to me are you going to have a baby, mummy? And they I'm very open and matter of fact with them about the fact that we couldn't have children and that's why we adopted and and I, and my response is always I don't need a baby. I've got you two and um reflect with my husband. You know he was saying and the thing is, when I say that, they know that I mean it, because children, they can tell you know, they they hear subtext, they pick up on what's unspoken. So I guess my advice would be you know, be ready to answer that question. And you know, when your children or your child asks you, you know, why didn't you have a baby or are you going to have a baby, how are you going to respond?

Emma:

There's, I would also say there there's a lot, there's a lot of losses associated with adoption. It almost feels too obvious to say, and acknowledging that is not to say it's not a wonderful thing to do. I have no regrets about adopting, it's the best thing I've ever done, and it involves a lot of losses, particularly if you've been through fertility treatment. Having worked through the losses you've already been through, I think is really important in terms of being able to work through the losses that come. So, for example, you know, watching other parents and other parents at the school gate just seem a lot more relaxed than I am.

Emma:

A lot of the time I feel like I have to be very vigilant with my children, probably more so than other parents do. Just things like Christmas and playdates and the kinds of things that perhaps, before you have children, you think it's going to be, it's going to be wonderful and it's going to be fun. And, you know, adopted children can really, really struggle with all of those things that get overexcited. You know you may find there are things that you wanted for your family life that aren't going to happen or that will look different to the way that you'd hoped. So so, yeah, I would say um. So there's a writer, Jody Day, who actually I found her work really, really helpful and she writes particularly about coming to terms with not having children at all, um, through adoption or through any means, but. But she talks about doing grief work, and I found that phrase really helpful, actually, because I think we have to have done our grief work so that we're ready to parent our children, and as best we can.

Ness:

Doing our grief work. I really like that. That's a really lovely term, and am I right in thinking that you've written a book about this? I'm just putting you on the spot. I just think you might have mentioned it.

Emma:

Yeah, so I'm also a Christian minister, so I had to come to terms with permanent infertility, which was complicated for me by the fact that I had to come to terms with it as summer of faith, and so I kind of had to grapple with these questions of well, if God gave that person a baby, why didn't God give me a baby?

Emma:

you know that was a really, really live question for me. So I, um, when I went to the library and I did my grieving in the library, I was looking for Christian books to help me make sense of this as a person of faith, and I didn't really find anything that helped me. I found some great books, the one I mentioned earlier by this American writer who had hundreds of letters from people. She's not a Christian, she's not writing from a faith perspective, but she was real about you know, people's stories and the very real pain that people are experiencing. So I wrote the book that I needed to read.

Emma:

Um, it's called a Pastoral Theology of Childlessness. Um, recognizing that, um, for me it was infertility. Um, for some people, they they're not infertile, they can get pregnant, but they suffer baby loss. Um, you know, for others, they may have a partner that doesn't want children. Or you know, for others, they may have a partner that doesn't want children, or, you know, there could be all kinds of reasons, and so my book is really a kind of me trying to figure out OK, where is God in all of this? And that's so I wrote. I wrote the book that I needed to read. I imagine you found that.

Ness:

Yes, will you say that name again, the title of it?

Emma:

A Pastoral Theology of Childlessness, A Past oral theology of Childlessness

Ness:

That's great and I imagine it was quite therapeutic writing it too absolutely, yeah, I.

Emma:

So I. It started off as a um, a journal, um, and I started journaling while we were still hoping to conceive naturally, and then I carried on journaling through IVF and I thought that eventually I would get pregnant and I would be able to publish it as a series of blog posts, with a happy ending. And the happy ending didn't come, and so I, and then I looked at what I'd written and I thought this is growing and growing and growing. I feel like maybe I've got enough for a book here. Um, it was absolutely therapeutic and I really did. I made my peace with the experience, but I also made my peace with God through it all yeah, you know that's great.

Sharon:

Everything does have a happy end, and so it was actually truthful has anyone got any sort of ending thoughts they'd like to share?

Ness:

I think this has been actually a very useful session. I think I've learned a lot, certainly.

Sharon:

Yeah, I think the main thing I would say is just around even what Emma said there around being open and honest. I can't emphasise how important that is. So, if someone is coming in and thinking about adoption or fostering and maybe you're help you decide, you know, is this the right time or does anything need to be done differently, and help guide you through that process as well. And it's not always clear-cut and we've got guidance and policies, but, um, as Kat says, it depends on each individual person as well. So, do come and talk to us and, um, the more you're open and honest with us, then I think that's the best way to progress. So, come with the. The good, the bad and the ugly is what we we need to hear and we can work. We can work from there, um, and yeah, we would love to hear from you, even if you're not sure. Come and have a chat with us absolutely.

Ness:

Again, it's not an interview process. It really is. We are trying to find people who can take on these children and it succeed. That's our primary focus all the time.

Kat:

Cat, you've got anything you want to say yeah, I suppose, just echoing what's been said before, I think, nice, you touched on that idea around that perfect child or that perfect family and what that's going to look like, and I think for anyone you know whether it's people having birth children. You have to scrap that because that's pressures that you're putting on you know children on yourself, for what that's going to look like. There's no perfect people. There's going to be no perfect. You know parents and, I think, being able able to have that relationship with the service you're going through the process with to ask for help, you know whether that's you know children just moving in an assessment, whatever that looks like.

Kat:

I think those connections are so important and I think for anyone considering adoption, it is around reach out, get that information. You might not be ready at that point, but being able to have a discussion around what that looks like, what the process looks like, get our information pack, something that you can reflect back on, you know, and ask any questions that you have. You know that's certainly what. What my job is about is answering people's questions, making sure they have enough information as possible, um, and I suppose we stand a wee bit back as professionals, but actually hearing from other adoptive families, parents. That is so key to those connections, to really getting to understand what that looks like. Yeah, and it's been lovely to hear from you, emma.

Ness:

I know it's been great listening to you, emma, and just sort of just before we go, emma, I'm just to you, emma, and just sort of just before we go, emma, I'm just wondering if there's any sort of. I know I've already asked you about any sort of tips you have, but if you could travel back in time, is there anything that you would tell yourself before this whole process, before you became a doctorate parent? Is there anything you would tell yourself that you think would be particularly helpful?

Emma:

I actually got some really good advice um, not even advice, encouragement from our social worker. I think it was like two days after the children moved in and, um, she said you can do this and it is going to get better I just can't tell you when and that was the advice that I really really needed to hear at the time. And she, she was amazing, she was a godsend. She really, really, really helped us. So it it's um, nothing lasts forever and there's all kinds of things that are really difficult. Um, a lot of people with biological parent, with biological children, tell me, with bio kids. There's a lot of people with biological children, tell me, with bio kids. There's a lot of things that are really, really difficult, but nothing lasts forever and you can do it. And it's about determination, it's about absolute commitment and being vulnerable enough to take advice. You know, because through adoption, there are lots of people there to help, to support, and there's lots of advice out there, and so I would say, seek out and receive that help and advice that's great.

Ness:

That seems a good note to end on. I want to uh thank kat and sharon for joining me this evening and particularly say thank you to emma for giving us, uh, your time this evening and your wise insights, because we can talk away, we can talk to the cows come home, but it's always better to hear from someone who's actually been through it. Thanks for listening to this episode of Barnardo's Fostering and Adoption NI podcast. To learn more about fostering and adoption with us, us search for Barnardo's online or find the link in our program description. We love to hear from you your thoughts, questions or future topic requests. To do so, you can contact us at bfani at barnardo'sorguk. You will find our email address also in the show notes.