Episode 6: Trust and Triumph—The Role of Positive Psychology in Leadership with Ryan McCreedy

Looking to dramatically elevate your organization’s performance metrics? Brace yourselves as we embark on a deep-dive into the riveting world of Positive Organizational Behavior (POB). We'll unravel the intriguing connection between organizational health, self-efficacy, team-efficacy, and success. Imagine your organization as a living system, needing a nurturing touch to blossom to its full potential. We explore how leaders can cultivate this environment using POB, fostering robust relationships and positive psychological capital.

Let's also venture into the shadows with our guest Ryan McCreedy, a seasoned organizational effectiveness consultant and teaching fellow at Harvard University.  Ever considered job satisfaction to be more than just a dopamine hit? We navigate the concept of eudaimonic well-being and how it serves as a more accurate measure of job satisfaction. Lastly, prepare to rethink traditional management concepts as we spotlight High-Involvement Management and its connection to POB. Prepare for an insightful journey that will transform your perspective on organizational health and success.

Ryan T. W. McCreedy [Guest], is a Leadership and Organizational Psychology scholar-practitioner based in Cambridge, Massachusetts, dedicated to creating inclusive, equitable workforces and economic systems. He works as a Principal Organizational Effectiveness Consultant at Slalom Consulting in Boston, focusing on talent and organizational development for Fortune 100 clients, and leads Slalom's global Leadership and Team Development capabilities. With a background in engineering and behavioral sciences, Ryan has contributed to transformative changes in various industries. He also engages in organizational behavior research and helps teach graduate courses at Harvard. Ryan holds several degrees, including a B.S. from George Mason University, an A.L.M from Harvard Extension School, and is pursuing a doctoral degree at William James College focusing in applications of neuroscience in workplaces. Beyond his professional life, he enjoys brewing beer, cooking, music, philosophical discussions, and traveling with his wife Hannah. 

• Ryan T. W. McCreedy's Harvard Scholar Page
• Ryan T. W. McCreedy's Google Scholar Page

Travis C. Mallett [Host],  received the Masters of Liberal Arts (ALM) in Management from Harvard University Extension School, where he has also earned Professional Graduate Certificates in both Organizational Behavior and Strategic Management. Travis previously received undergraduate degrees in Electrical Engineering, General Mathematics, and Music from Washington State University. He also served as an Engineering Manager at Schweitzer Engineering Laboratories, where he led a team responsible for developing and maintaining SEL's highest-selling product line. An innovative force in engineering, Travis holds numerous patents and has authored papers and books across diverse subjects. His passion for continuous learning and organizational excellence propels him to explore and illuminate the intricacies of management theories. Through his podcast, "The Management Theory Toolbox", he offers valuable insights on effective leadership, business innovation, and strategic methodologies.

Want to dive in even deeper? Visit the full show notes for this episode.

Chapters

• 0:01 Positive Organizational Behavior and Implications
• 12:12 Positive Psychology and Dark Triad Exploration
• 23:16 The Power of Positive Organizational Behavior

Transcript

Ryan McCreedy: 0:01

That's a crazy stat Correlation, causation, I don't care, like something's happening there and I think we're failing a society to understand those things. We wa typologize and label them and call them disorders so quickly, but I think there's utility and I think everybody can develop in a positive way.

Travis Mallett: 0:19

Welcome to another episode of the Management Theory Toolbox, your top destination to understand the behind the scenes theory of the management and business world. If you're an entrepreneur, manager or even just someone interested in the business world and you're always curious about the why behind certain management concepts, not just the what, then you're in the right place. I'm your host, Travis Mallett, and today we're tackling the fascinating world of positive organizational behavior. Let's review where we've come from and where we're going. We started by exploring the nature of the universe, and we noticed this interesting phenomenon that kept popping up time and time again. It seems that across both the vast scales of time and space, the simpler elements combine together, and is the result just a bigger version of that simpler element? No, often we find that new complex phenomena arises. That remarkable feature of the universe is called emergence. We saw it in atoms and molecules, cells and animals and eventually in people and organizations, and this led us to wonder if organizations are not these well-oiled machines that everyone talks about.

: 1:46

I'm not happy, Bob Not happy. Ask me why.

Ryan McCreedy: 1:54

Okay.

: 1:55

Why, why?

Travis Mallett: 1:56

what Be specific.

: 1:57

Bob, why are you unhappy? You know, bob, a company is like an enormous clock Is like an enormous clock. Yes, precisely, it only works if all the little cogs mesh together Now a clock needs to be clean, well-lubricated and wound tight. The best clocks have dual movements, cogs that fit, that cooperate by design. I'm being metaphorical, Bob. You know what I mean by cooperative cogs.

Travis Mallett: 2:32

That engaging snippet from Pixar's critically acclaimed the Incredibles portrays the common misconception of viewing organizations as mere mechanistic entities.

Travis Mallett: 2:44

We must critically assess these metaphors because they shape our perspective, defining the tools and strategies we employ in our businesses. Should we picture our businesses as an enormous clock, then we might view our workforce merely as replaceable gears. Such a mechanical view might even limit our strategic insights Because, believing our organization is an enormous clock, we spend all our time tuning the cogs and gears, focusing exclusively on producing the next tick most efficient, unaware of the happenings in the external environment. Or even if we are thinking about the bigger picture concept, such as strategy, we may think we're merely playing something as well-defined as a chess game, as highlighted in our previous episode.

Travis Mallett: 3:38

However, by envisioning organizations as living systems akin to neural networks or intricate brains, our approach undergoes a revolutionary transformation. Recognizing that our businesses can evolve, adapt and exhibit characteristics of health or sickness, our interactions and methodologies inevitably change. Consider our health, for instance. When parts of our body like our heart or liver are compromised, it affects our overall health and performance. If our living system's analogy is worth its salt, then we might hypothesize that we'd find a similar relationship between health and performance in organizations. Let's find out.

: 4:22

Over the past decade, we've analyzed the performance of several hundred companies. What we've found is that our organizational health index actually correlates very highly with operational and financial performance. So what we've seen is that companies that score high on our organizational health index also disproportionately outperform on operational and financial performance as well. So there's a very clear link between what we call organizational health and performance.

Travis Mallett: 4:50

That was Oliver Tonbee, a senior partner at McKinsey Company, whose research found that companies with a high organizational health index generated total returns to shareholders three times higher than those of unhealthy ones. This reinforces our proposition. Envisioning organizations as living entities holds significant real-world implications. While the physical health of employees evidently plays a pivotal role, what about their psychological well-being? Beyond just assessing mental health, what leadership tools would we incorporate when treating organizations as living systems, as opposed to mechanistic models? Katie Livingston offered a profound insight in our first episode. Embracing the living system's model compels us to ponder what gives life to the system, and what grows out of that question is something called positive organizational behavior, a management style that amplifies individual strengths, channeling them for both personal and organizational betterment. This approach shifts the focus Instead of spotlighting what's wrong, it celebrates what's right, with individuals At its core.

Travis Mallett: 6:06

Positive OB champions the ideology that by cultivating an individual's innate strengths, we not only benefit them, but also the larger organization. It operates on the foundation that performance soars when individuals are confident, optimistic and resilient. Think about it Aren't you more motivated, more driven, when you genuinely believe that you can achieve a task at hand? This concept, known as self-efficacy, is paramount. For managers, it means guiding their teams with faith, ensuring each member believes in their capability. Intriguingly, studies reveal the power of self-efficacy resonates particularly strongly in the US, more so than in several other nations. But it's not just about the individual. As workplaces become more collaborative, team efficacy becomes pivotal. When a team collectively believes in its potential, the results are often extraordinary.

Travis Mallett: 7:06

Let's also discuss leadership in this context. Leaders employing positive OB possess unique ability. They can frame setbacks, even major crises, in an uplifting light. Such leaders naturally forge stronger bonds with their teams A priceless trait, especially when research points out that a sizable number of associates often harbor distrust towards their leaders. So how does one rebuild lost trust?

Travis Mallett: 7:33

Positive psychological capital is the answer. It's like putting deposits in the bank. The more positive deposits you put in over a long period of time, the more the trust grows. And in organizations, members are not only driven but also remain unwavering in their pursuit of objectives. The result Units that consistently outperform. All of this grows out of tending to our business or organization in the same nurturing way that one would attend any other living system.

Travis Mallett: 8:02

Now, even though this concept is connected to several deep philosophical topics, you know that at the management theory toolbox, we always like to dig even deeper under the surface. Positive OB is actually rooted in something called positive psychology. And here, to help us wrangle with the multitude of threads that always spiral out when we dig under the surface, is Ryan McCree, a principal organizational effectiveness consultant, a teaching fellow at Hardberg University and a doctoral candidate researching how neuroscience informs leadership and organizational studies. Hi, ryan, and welcome back to the show. Hey, travis, it's always a pleasure. In today's episode we're talking about positive psychology and I'm wondering if you can tell us a bit about the concept of positive psychology and some about the history of that idea.

Ryan McCreedy: 8:58

Positive psychology is largely rid of the idea of ensuring that we are mirroring human systems and we are understanding things like mindfulness and depth of elevating human consciousness. Some of this comes from a lot of philosophy. There's a lot of recent philosophy in the 60s and 70s of how we can look at social systems a little bit differently than the way that the sciences had originally made them happen. If anybody's interested in postmodernism and they're interested in Foucault and so on, it's like we've created these police state mentalities often and they show up and we say that they mirror over and over again and we keep repeating those cycles.

Ryan McCreedy: 9:39

So a lot of the movement of postmodernism is to get away from labeling things and enhancing division and creating more power dynamics that repress and push people away from the norm, and it moves towards more unifying of saying why can't we say that there is gradients, not labels? But there are gradients, right, there are spectrums, and those differences are things that we can employ in positive ways and each of us provides value because of those gradients. But a lot of it sometimes gets simplified down into uncovering some of the darker aspects of business and some of the evil things that we see in commonalities in that way too. Again, it depends I'm sorry, I'm putting it out there, but it depends who you're talking to what positive psychology means.

Travis Mallett: 10:24

Now we've brought positive psychology into the conversation, based on a theoretical connection with the idea of living systems. But is there any evidence that positive psychology is useful in an organizational setting?

Ryan McCreedy: 10:37

So what's been really interesting these past few years, specifically with COVID and some of the racial tensions as well, we have a confluence of situations where talking about mental health and human cognition and performance and well-being is now in the fore, as is talking about identity and the breadth of diversity and how we address those sorts of things.

Ryan McCreedy: 11:00

Very interestingly, there's research that we are currently conducting I've done preliminary research but to give you an example of things about positive psychology that have profound impacts, is that behaviors psychologically safe behaviors reduce burnout and increase sense of inclusion and belonging at the same time. Here's what's fascinating, though Burnout reduction of burnout, enhancing of inclusion and belonging are not strongly correlated with what I'm out there in that same exact data set, Meaning that you can pretty much say that psychologically safe behaviors themselves actually help. Two disparate things happen that are both really a part of core things that we talk about in positive psychology. Sometimes that's what we're getting at. We're talking about social systems and how complicated they are, but what are some of the foundational things that can help impact any positive way multiple facets of that social system?

Travis Mallett: 11:51

How does positive psychology play a role in, let's say, the darker issues of the business world? Are there any situations where we have to fall back on more traditional tools because positive psychology doesn't seem to work?

Ryan McCreedy: 12:04

Yeah, I think about this often because I'm using the term liberalism in a philosophical sense, but let's say liberalism or even postmodernism. Those theories and practice have a bit of a privilege to them. You have to be of a certain educational class and the social system that the organization that we're talking about has to have the right resourcing in order to address some of these things. I don't think any of us would probably say that those darker things or traditional stick type of mentalities and, honestly, even carrots to be honest with you, that's another thing that we could get into. We would never say that those are the most effective in every situation or the worst in every situation. It's a highly dependent and nuanced thing. I think there's some things that we haven't figured out as a society, though. What I mean by that is when we think of dark leadership and the dark triad and how that shows up, and the stats are extremely high three times higher of having a dark triad in an executive position than you would in the normal population. That's a crazy stat Correlation, causation. I don't care. Something's happening there.

Ryan McCreedy: 13:10

I think we're failing at society to understand those things. wto w to ize them and call them disorders so quickly. I'm not a clinician, so I have a lot of fortune in not having to put those labels on people. But I think there's utility and I think everybody can develop in a positive way. I think that's important for us to understand is just because it doesn't fit the normative way our social systems work today and our organizations work today doesn't mean that there's not a really valuable way to redirect some of those capabilities, some of those ways of thinking, et cetera. I don't think college psychology always gets there. I think it can do better, because it claims that there's a right and there's a wrong way. I think it's a little bit more nuanced.

Travis Mallett: 13:51

So I'm going to play devil's advocate here and push that question a bit more. We're talking about positive psychology in relation to the idea of living systems and asking what gives life to the system, and positive psychology is, in a way, what grows out of asking that question. Now here's the tricky part when we think about people with high levels of the dark triad and I guess I should tell our listeners what that is, since we're going to be talking about it in a future episode the dark triad is in contrast to many of the personality traits we're familiar with, like extroversion, conscientiousness, agreeableness and so on. The dark triad is things like psychopathy or lack of empathy, machiavellianism or the degree to which someone feels pleasure when manipulating or deceiving others, or exhibits strong self-interest and grandiose narcissism or a feeling of self-importance. So back to my question. If we're asking what gives life to the system and the system in question is one that revels in the darker side of humanity then is positive psychology really what we want to use there? Would that actually be good for everyone else?

Ryan McCreedy: 15:02

Well, I think you can make the argument that if you have competition with high dark triad tendencies coming in hot, trying to be hot-style with you, that might be the best person on your ship to understand their tactic. Coming at you, in fact, they might be your front-line person that you want to put out there and say, hey, you got some of the qualities. You're thinking their way. What can we do or fight back? So again, I think it's just so much more nuanced than we give credit to. Another interesting thing is we talk about in the workplace. We talk about job satisfaction and happiness all the time, and sometimes engagement too. We use that very loosely for the reality of engagement. We'll have to pull another conversation, but anyways, what I'm getting at is a lot of that is hedonic. That's hedonic. Well-being, that's like dopamine, it's the quick shit. Yeah, unhappy, yeah, I'm happy, I'm happy.

Ryan McCreedy: 15:48

But that's a very limited point of view for what humans crave. Most humans crave a little bit of a challenge. They want to think it's longer term and more meaningful. Sure, there's people with compulsive disorders or compulsive tendencies themselves and they might like that shorter term fixed too. But the average human wants a sense of meaning and purpose and something is strived towards, that beacon at lighthouse, that North Star that's called eudaimonic well-being, the sense that I'm growing, I'm being challenged, I'm stretching enough just to the 85%. How you need both and I think that's another thing is this has become such a Western thing.

Ryan McCreedy: 16:23

It's very interesting because I enjoy Eastern philosophy on this it's that Western society has said any inconvenience, anything that causes pain or suffering, we need to remove. And I would even go out all limb to say this is why we have dependencies on opioids etc. We have created a culture where, literally, we introduced the scale of you always have to be over on the smiley face, you can't ever be on the frowny face. That's the problem. That's not the end of yank, that's not the reality of the universe, right? Everything just is. What I like about eudaimonic well-being is that offering folks struggle with the concept of personal rewarding. Personal growth allows them to then grow the culture of themselves and the social system with it, far more than just satisfaction. Very easy, and in fact I'd say most organizations are lazy if they're not thinking about those.

Travis Mallett: 17:11

That makes a lot of sense. So you're saying we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the role that positive psychology can play when dealing with the dark triad, because it encourages us to find ways to use the strengths of those people. They can still play a positive role in the world and in our organizations, but positive psychology just encourages us to figure out what that role is. Very interesting and, by the way, I'm sure our listeners are expecting this I thought it was great that you brought in so many different philosophical ideas to the conversation. Totally gonna have to springboard into some philosophical tangents.

Ryan McCreedy: 17:48

By the way, in the doctoral program up in we spent a lot of time looking at Native American culture, but also that was when we look at lots of different logical people that created logic structures beyond our Western point of view, and there's a lot to learn there because there's a lot of diversity that could be had out there in terms of way that thinking at organ.

Travis Mallett: 18:07

That sounds really interesting. Thanks again for joining us on.

Ryan McCreedy: 18:11

Yeah, thank you very much. This is such a pleasure.

Travis Mallett: 18:16

Well, that was a fascinating discussion. So we only have time left to either debrief the discussion or push the envelope even further with one of those coveted philosophical tangents. But I'll let the audience decide. Sending out the survey now. And survey says overwhelmingly people want a philosophical tangent. All right then. Of course I just made that up because I really want a philosophical tangent and I'm not ashamed to admit it. And so where do we start? So many threads to pull on? We could talk about modernism versus postmodernism, but let's choose something a little different. How about pottery? That's right. Ceramics, but before you decide to skip this, believe me when I say you have no idea what you'll be missing out on. So here it goes.

Travis Mallett: 19:10

In the serene landscapes of southern Japan, during a time when simplicity in art was cherished, there, traveled Senorikyu, a revered proponent of the Wabi-Sabi philosophy. This philosophy embraced the beauty in the simple, the aged and the naturally imperfect. Once, during his travels, a local host, eager to impress the esteemed guest, invited Rikyu to a dinner. The centerpiece of the evening was not the lavish spread but an intricately designed antique tea jar the host had recently acquired from China. The jar, with its history and expense, was expected to capture Rikyu's admiration. However, as the evening wore on, rikyu's attention seemed to drift elsewhere. Instead of the opulent tea jar, he seemed engrossed in a simple scene outdoors a lone branch gracefully swaying in the gentle evening breeze. The host's anticipation turned to despair. He had hoped for validation from someone he deeply respected, but his prized possession went unnoticed In a moment of overwhelming emotion. Once the dinner and his guest of honor had departed, the host shattered the tea jar in frustration and retreated to his chambers. Witnessing this act, the other guests gathered the fragmented pieces. With great care and respect for both the jar and their host's sentiments, they employed the art of kintsugi, piecing the jar back together using gold lacquer. On Rikyu's subsequent visit, his gaze fell upon the now gold veined jar. With a gentle smile and the wisdom of one who sees beauty beyond the obvious, he remarked now it's magnificent.

Travis Mallett: 21:08

For centuries, zen masters advocated a unique approach to objects we often perceive as broken or damaged. They believed that items like pots, cups and bowls, once damaged, should not be tossed away. Instead, they should be celebrated and mended with great care. This practice, rich in symbolism, reconciles us with the imperfections and adversity's timebrings Into the world of kintsugi, where kint stands for gold and tsugi signifies joining together, or, quite literally, to join with gold. Rather than shunning the cracks and damages, kintsugi celebrates them, adorning them with lacquer mixed with the finest gold powder. Instead of hiding imperfections, they become focal points infused with gold and glory, embracing the philosophical depth and beauty of scars. In an era that often reveres perfection, kintsugi whispers a timeless wisdom to see and cherish the golden scars of history, to acknowledge the beauty in the broken and the reborn, and to embrace life in all its imperfect magnificence.

Travis Mallett: 22:23

Kintsugi is more than just a physical restoration. It's a profound metaphor for the philosophy of positive psychology. Just as kintsugi highlights fractures with golden seams, celebrating them as an intrinsic part of an object's history, positive psychology encourages us to embrace our challenges, failures and vulnerabilities. Instead of perceiving setbacks as blemishes to be concealed, we are taught to view them as essential facets of our personal narrative, shaping our resilience and growth. The golden lacquer in kintsugi symbolizes the transformative power of acceptance, healing and growth. Likewise, positive psychology underscores the importance of recognizing and valuing our imperfections, understanding that they can be the foundation for strength, wisdom and a deeper sense of fulfillment in life.

Travis Mallett: 23:16

As we continue our journey of studying organizational behavior, it's helpful to have the ideas of positive psychology or positive organizational behavior in the back of our minds so that we can use that as a tool to flavor or enhance the theories that stem from studying how people and teams behave in organizations. But positive organizational behavior is more than just seasoning for our big stew of management theories. It actually results in a specific constellation of management practices called high-involvement management, and we'll discuss that in the next episode. So with that, thank you for tuning in to the Management Theory Toolbox, your top destination for the behind-the-scenes of management and business theory. As always, each episode is based on the latest and most robust management theory and you can download the show notes to find references and learn more. Join us next time for an exploration of the more practical side of management theory. Keep learning, keep growing and keep building your management theory toolbox.