82: Unlocking Introvert Potential in Operations with Dr. Jennifer Kahnweiler Artwork

Your Future Realized

A trusted advisor for hundreds of leaders, Laura brings her years of experience as an operations executive and change management strategist to the microphone. She launched Your Future Realized podcast to help other ops execs gain the self-awareness and confidence to build relationships and make a bigger impact.

All Episodes

Your Future Realized

82: Unlocking Introvert Potential in Operations with Dr. Jennifer Kahnweiler

May 28, 2025 • Laura Malinowski • Episode 82

Find the full transcript at yourfuturerealized.com/82.

Speaking as an introvert who spent years working in operations, I wish I’d met today’s guest sooner. Dr. Jennifer Kahnweiler has been a champion for introverts at work for over 15 years, and I recently got to sit down with her for a great conversation.

I know firsthand how easy it is for quieter voices to be overlooked at work!

What’s cool about Jennifer is she’s actually an extrovert, but she’s all-in on supporting introverts. She brings a really balanced, fresh perspective to leadership and team dynamics. She’s written five books, translated into 18 languages, and she’s worked with big names like Amazon and NASA.

We talked about how introverts can play to their strengths, and what companies can do to make work more welcoming for everyone. So, whether you’re an introvert yourself or you lead a team full of them, you’re going to get a lot out of this one.

I know firsthand how easy it is for quieter voices to be overlooked at work!

Laura:

Hi Jennifer! … So first of all, thank you, for being an extrovert who looks out for us introverts! I think that's pretty cool.

Meet Dr. Jennifer Kahnweiler: Champion for Introverts

What inspired you to make this your life's work?

Dr. Kahnweiler:

I love your introduction, thank you. I'm going to bottle that one because it wasn't always accepted as much that I was an extrovert being an ally and, and in recent years people are much more appreciative, I guess. But how I started really was. There are a couple of prongs, Laura. You know, it's always the personal I think that drives us whether we realize it or not. And, and early on I was always somebody that would bring out my introverted friends. And so, as I transitioned into more the professional world more I started. I was doing a lot of career coaching. That's where I started my career, we called it career counseling and built a university and different, different venues in corporate. And I would keep finding that people were very not aware of introversion and extroversion. And as soon as they got that awareness, it wasn't overnight but there was a lot more like, kind of, relaxing. Nothing's wrong with me know I can put the pieces together as to why I'm always feeling like something's wrong basically that I'm not speaking up enough or I'm getting that feedback all the time like I used to my teachers back in school, you know. And so, there was a lot of confusion and frustration. But when they would learn about this, it was like this, this awakening.

So that was really motivating to me and I then I would go on and support them in helping them bring out not become to become an extrovert but to leverage what skills and strengths they had. And so, I moved into more leadership development roles where I was designing classes and delivering them in organizations. It was obvious that the introverts felt that they just didn't have a place, and they didn't see any career trajectory. And they, they felt like this bias whether they could articulate it or not. And so, I started incorporating that more into my trainings. Eventually led to. To writing about it, because there really, back then, in 2008, when I started, there weren’t any kind of practical books that one could get that would help them figure out this world.

Laura:

Yeah, I so actually really appreciate that, the sense that, that you approached the conversation not like trying to get them to be more extroverted, which was often my experience. And certainly, we're a very extroverted culture. And extroverts are rewarded most quickly. And so, there is sort of a sense, I think actually some of the most successful introverts are people who've learned to show up like an extrovert because that's where we live. And what I really appreciate is your lens that you don't, you don't have to do that in order to. But sometimes you do. In many organizational cultures, you have to or you get run over or forgotten. We can talk quite a bit about that, I'm sure.

Dr. Kahnweiler:

No, and I saw that a lot, Laura. I was going to say there was a lot of almost a schizophrenic kind of life that a lot of people have had, and they still do, where they're one way at work and then at home. And I would always ask them the question, “How tired are you?” And they'd go, “Very!” as you know, putting on that mask.

And it's anybody who's like in an underrepresented group where they're having to fit in all the time. And you're right. The culture is definitely still extroverted. There is no doubt about it in most organizations that I've been exposed to. So, that awareness, again, is a tough one to navigate because you do have to adapt. And we're not talking about the extroverts. I believe we need to adapt, and that's starting to happen. But, you know, extroverts haven't had an issue. They don't even show when we offer programs, though we market it to everybody and we make a point to say extroverts, you're invited to learn about introverted leadership. The predominant people that show up are the introverts. The extroverts don't feel the pain, you know what I mean?

The Challenge of Being an Introvert in an Extroverted Culture

Laura:

Right. Until something breaks that only the introverts can handle. I'm sure we'll get into this. You had mentioned something, though, that I really want to dive into, that was just juicy, when you said something about realizing, “They're not just out to get me,” or something like that. Can you share a little bit more about the impression there might be about introverts or myths that might be living out there really aren't true, but I can see how people might interpret it that way… and actually, Extrovert Josh just said (in the chat) “Extrovert here, to learn more about how introverts lead. Thank you, Josh.”

Dr. Kahnweiler:

Oh, my gosh, that's so good. I'm so glad Josh is here. See, he's really proving that we turned a corner, Laura. To your point, that question comes up and I need to address it more. I think those myths about what introverts are and aren't - that they're slow, or that introverts do not like people. I don't know if you've ever gotten that one expressed to you.

Laura:

I've been told, “You can't be an introvert because you like people.”And I'm a coach. This is what I do all day. I work with people, largely one on one, but also in teams and groups, and I love it. I actually don't like just being by myself all day…. And there's a limit to it. I get tapped out.

Common Myths About Introverts at Work

Dr. Kahnweiler:

Exactly, you love them. And - I don't mean to interrupt you. We do that a lot, extroverts! We think “The introvert’s finished,” right?

Laura:

Just because I'm moving slower?

Dr. Kahnweiler:

Yeah, because you're, you know, we have to. And that's what we need to learn – to pause and take a breath. And a lot of coaches are introverted. People don't realize that our professors, and a large majority of teachers are introverted. But you know, they're forced to kind of step out there. Other myths that I think we, we buy into without knowing it is the low energy, that they don't have much energy. That's not true. The energy is internal, right? You're in your heads. It's just how you express it is different.

Debunking Stereotypes: Introverts and People Skills

The other last one that's come up a lot lately is people have said, “How can introverts be good public speakers?” And they actually make the best public speakers in my opinion, or it skews that way. And why is that? Because introverts prepare. We have the four Ps model, the prepare and presence, push and practice.

Well, you can only be present and in the moment and able to flex if you've done the preparation, in my opinion. That's the greatest thing I think I've learned from introverts. With all this work, you know, sure, I can wing it. That's what's gotten me by for many years. Let's face it, I'm a wing it person. But if I prepare, I'm so much better. And I'm not talking about over preparing. I'm talking about being present. I've done the work. I'm not going to worry about like that I need to dot that I, or that mistake went out in that newsletter. I got the newsletter out. Let me just not freak out about it and let me be present with what's now happening with this situation. And I think with public speaking, that's such an asset. I've been doing it for years in different formats, facilitation, keynotes, workshops. And if I have done the work, then I don't need to worry that I'm hitting every beat, because I can be with the group because every group is different. So, I have to be able to read the audience, read the room.

Laura:

And we introverts do tend to prepare.

Dr. Kahnweiler:

You do! Do you relate to that part about being present though, that you can be because you've prepared? Does that resonate?

Laura:

I think that's absolutely true. I think that even in this session, setting up this LinkedIn Live, I think you mentioned said to me a couple times, “wow, you've done a lot of prep for this.” And I'm like, I have to so I can be really there and feel like I can speak more quickly and conversationally. But it doesn't feel like preparing. It just feels like, the language I would use with myself is getting solid with myself or getting clear with myself, which is preparing. But to me, preparing means like it's something almost to do externally. And for me, it’s a very internal process. I know internally when I'm ready. And then I'm like, once I'm ready, I can pivot, I can do a lot of things, but I better have time to get grounded that way.

Dr. Kahnweiler:

I love that word. I'm going to steal that word or quote you on it about being solid. I think that's really true because we need to be in touch with our physical bodies. I remember when I first started this training, I was so afraid to do public speaking. I was thrust into it in this role that I had, and I was so. I was over preparing, and I think that's one of the things that the caveats for introverts, because you guys do prepare so well that you can go the extreme. We say - any overuse of a strength becomes a weakness, a liability.

So you can over prepare. And I over prepared. I did the exact thing. And so, when I was in the room, I was so there's a Jewish word called fartumlt. I was just not sure what I was doing because when I got asked a question that would throw me off because I was following the lesson plan, you know?

And I could not be present. And that really taught me. I had to go through that painful experience a number of times. And I remember one time I had a very resistant group. They had just been let go and I was in charge of teaching them job search skills. And I had over prepared. And all they wanted to do was vent and express their concern and frustration so that we could then teach. But I was so wedded to, “oh, I have to teach them this.” Because that was the assignment and it was a problem. So, I think just introverts and extroverts, we both need to be aware that any of these things we can do to excess.

Why Introverts Make Great Public Speakers

Laura:

Tell me about the 4Ps process. Share for the people who are listening - what is it and how does it help introverted leaders embrace those quiet strengths?

Dr. Kahnweiler:

When I did the research for the first version, we're going into our third edition of the Introverted Leader, I needed a way to kind of hang it all together. You know, I had collected a lot of interviews, and had done a lot of surveys. One of the things that kept coming up was that the people I was working with a lot in technology operations, like you have, people that were doing a lot of work behind the scenes. They wanted a system, they wanted a process. And honestly, Jennifer is not a systems person. But that's why you have an editor, right? My editor kind of forced me into coming up with a model. But it really came from the people that I had been researching, they were introverted, successful introverted leaders.

I kept saying them, you know, how do you do this? How do you network? How do you public speak? How do you lead a team? One of our callers was just asking this… And they would tell me things and they would fall into, like, qualitative research does, it falls into buckets. And these are the four buckets. The first one is prepare. And we've already talked about that, so that you feel like you have enough grasp on what the meeting is about, thinking about the agenda ahead of time, what's my purpose here in this networking meeting, let me just do a little thinking. It doesn't have to be extensive. The presence is when what I talked about is being in the moment, being where your feet are. And the best introverted leaders are with you when they're with you, you know, absolutely. They're not worried about, “oh, who's over there?”, or that I need to talk.

That is what I remember about my best leaders who were introverted. That is exactly what I remember. They were with me. They didn't stay there forever. They knew how to kind of move it around, but they were with me when they were with me.

So, in any situation, you are with an employee. I remember I had one guy said he was always on his laptop, and his team members would come over and he'd go, “uh-huh, uh-huh,” and anybody who could only hear this. then one day, he was finding he was not connecting with them, and he couldn't get what he needed from them. And he started to just experiment and close the laptop and just be there even for those two minutes of that interruption. And I think operations people can relate to this. Or he would say to them, “Can I see you in 10 minutes, when I can give you the attention?” Simple things like that. So that was like being present and realizing power of that.

Then the third one is push. And I saw, I was so impressed with that. These leaders would put themselves in those situations you described, with the extroverted demands. And they would have to flex, they wouldn't make it so challenging that they couldn't do it. They would set little goals for themselves. Like in the Atomic Habits book. Whether it was to follow up with the person or do a little practice a new way to tell a story, like, Let me push myself. I never really tell a personal story. Let me try it, when I talk to my team.”

And that's where a coach like you comes in very handy, because you can help them focus on what would give them the most results there. And then they just kept setting goals for themselves to stretch a little bit out of their comfort zone, and then they would develop that skill. So that a lot of leaders will now tell you who are introverted, “my team does not believe that I'm an introvert.” Have you ever heard that? Like, nobody believes I'm an introvert. Like you?

Laura:

Yeah, I've heard that, definitely. And these are people who didn't know me when I was in my 20s, and I wouldn't have said boo to a fly outside because I was so introverted. Then I learned there was a game to play, and I was like, well, I'm here. I might as well play the game. I figured it out. But it would be exhausting.

Dr. Kahnweiler:

And having a system that they could grab. And the last P is the practice. I think about that Jerry Seinfeld quote what you know, he would talk about: “Why do you keep doing stand up? You're so rich and you've achieved a pinnacle. Number one TV show in the world?” And he's like, “If I don't keep practicing, it’s like broadband. It shrivels up.” And we all know that if we don't do something for a while, we get rusty. So the great virtuosos keep refining.

People who are introverted leaders constantly look for ways to practice. So the four are: the preparation, the presence, the push and the practice. All those that made it just a nice little model we can then superimpose on different challenges you have or may encounter as a leader.

The Four Ps Process for Introverted Leaders

Laura:

I love this model. That's from the leader's perspective, from either an extroverts or an introvert's perspective as a leader

What have you seen is the most interesting or unique or way to create inclusive environments where introverts strengths are brought in, not to dampen extroverts, but to make it so we're really getting the most out of everybody?

Dr. Kahnweiler:

I think there's a couple of things. First of all, be able to talk about it openly and understand what are we talking about. We're not labeling people, but we all have different styles. Someone told me recently they did this with their team. They did a staff meeting and said “Let’s do a little owner's manual: How do you like to be communicated with? What do you need from me to be successful?”

I love that. It's so simple and it's so concrete. So, it's like number one, being transparent yourself and talking about where you fall on the spectrum. And it may be you're an extrovert, but you can be an ally the way I try to be.

Then talking about with your team: Be intentional in your organization. I think leaders have a responsibility to take a look at the practices that we did in the last book, Creating Introvert-Friendly Workplaces: How to Unleash Everyone’s Talent and Performance. In it, we outline seven different practices there that fell into areas like hiring. Are we really taking a look at the kind of our interview process even? Are we making it introvert-friendly so that we're not exhausting people?

Creating Inclusive Work Environments for Introverts

Laura:

What a great lens too. Because often introverts need to pause and consider before they answer in an interview, and show up differently in a moment - especially if you don't know what the questions are going to be. For someone who is just great at ‘winging it’ can speak a lot and have not very much substance. Not you, by the way (laughter).

Dr. Kahnweiler:

No, no! I don’t take offense (laughter).

Laura:

There can be a lot of impatience to get to the answer. Get to the juice. And depending on how comfortable you are with that, for introverts, that can be pretty stressful. Oh, for extroverts it can be stressful.

Dr. Kahnweiler:

I'm sure there are so many examples of that. But having that just awareness ahead of time, like “Okay, let me just be open to this” on the employee side or the prospect side, and we advise things like, “Perhaps you need to slow it down. You went too fast. Paraphrase what you thought you were hearing.” Now we have virtual within hiring practices within the way the workplace is. And that's really the biggest change I made in the new book The Introverted Leader that's coming out June 24 (2025). We did a whole new section on the workplace and the hybrid workplace, remote work, and the different options and how we need to also think about the introvert lens with that. Because people will perform differently.

Our surveys show that introverts really reslish having the opportunity to at least have hybrid work. Not over 95% said it at the beginning of COVID. It's still very high. And as companies are pulling people back, it's just important to think about, okay, how do we make an environment within the workplace, within the office that we can have spaces that people can focus, that they can have quiet and not like in the old days where they were taken over. If that was done, they were taken over by the storage room. So, it's like really being intentional.

And then I think also in the moment, once you have this lens and this awareness, you're not going to be able to anticipate all the problems of this but if you notice in the meeting, for instance, either virtual or live, that you're not only hearing from the 80% (if you work in a sales organization), everybody's talking and they're enthusiastic, but you're not hearing from the other 20% - even as a team member, you have responsibility. I think my belief is to slow things down and just say, I would love to hear if Laura has any thoughts on that or chat her on zoom and just invite her in the conversation. Just being in all of the scenarios in the workplace, networking too, just to be aware in the moment too of when we might be skewing more extrovert.

Laura;

I think that's absolutely spot on. And I sort of had a moment there too when you said that about, “I want to ask Laura what she thinks”- in transparency now I can handle that better. I'm further along in my life and in my career and in my experience. But there was a time when that would have completely would actually have shut me down.

Dr. Kahnweiler:

That's fair.

Laura:

I would be like, “Now everybody's paying attention to me!” which would sort of terrify me -

Dr. Kahnweiler:

You’re in the spotlight.

Laura:

Right! - and make whatever thoughts I was having, sometimes they would bubble out and sometimes I'd not be able to get there. And so I would say, actually, if I may, in tandem to that what's helpful - and I think this is in your book as well - wherever you can do something in, as part of the preparation. If you can send out the agenda items, if you can send out “here are the questions we're going to be asking so that you (introvert or extrovert), can prepare your thoughts in advance.” I think for introverts it can be ”Here's an opportunity for you to put your thoughts together before you come to the meeting.” And for an extrovert, it can be “Here's an opportunity for you to distill down what is the most important thing” as opposed to everything and thinking out loud. It can bring some balance that way when done, to use your word, intentionally in the design of the meeting.

Dr. Kahnweiler:

Of course, you're a great designer, but not every leader is, right? I love that. And all those are great ideas, and we should incorporate them. And in interviewing a number of people on my podcast who are very successful at navigating the workplace, quite a surprising thing that kept coming up for me - I guess I shouldn't be surprised - they said, “you know, it goes both ways.” I had to learn just like you did, Laura, how to figure out a way how to interject myself into the conversation because I don't think they a lot of times extroverts (and I wrote about this in the Genius of Opposite ) - they don't intend to be shutting you down. They're just enthusiastic and they don't even realize how much they're talking. So again, we do need to make them aware that they need to make space.

Making Hiring and Meetings More Introvert-Friendly

Laura:

Pausing all the way around.

Dr. Kahnweiler:

Pausing. But what the surprising or revealing thing to me was, a lot of these successful introverts said… Doug Conan had a way to say it, he said “It's if it's to be, it's up to me.” Like, I have to learn, even if I'm very shy and very introverted, ways of getting my voice heard. And there are many strategies that are in the book, and particularly in the last one, and in the current one, The Introverted Leader, about how you can do that in a way that still feels okay to you. You know, not - like you're saying - freaking you out, if somebody's going to call on you.

Strategies for Introverts to Get Their Voices Heard

Laura:

You want it to be authentic, and you also want to give somebody space to have their own reaction, their own, their own time in it.

Dr. Kahnweiler:

Exactly. And it's funny, I don't know if you've noticed too, but on zoom meetings, a lot of the introverts will be chatting. We found in, in the earlier work that writing, expressing yourself through writing. And I know my husband does this. He writes these long emails expressing himself. My daughters are like, “okay, Dad.” But you know, and I know that a lot of other introverts express themselves very well. I would say 95% of the, the print reporters I've had interview me talk about their introversion. They like the written word so that you express yourself that way. So sometimes a good way to let people know your point of view is maybe not be in the meeting, it might be afterwards, it might be before. “These are some thoughts I had afterwards.” And you can make a very powerful statement that way.

Authentic Communication for Introverted and Extroverted Leaders

Laura:

JenniferKahnweiler.com is a way to connect with Jennifer, and also do check out her podcast, “The Introvert Ally” on your podcast platform of choice.

Dr. Kahnweiler:

Thank you! And we have a newsletter that comes out with tips and we send a summary of the podcast episodes each week too. So, you don't necessarily have to listen, but you can. We hope you do.

Laura:

Thank you so much for your time, Jennifer!

Connect with Dr. Jennifer Kahnweiler and Learn More

Website: JenniferKahnweiler.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenniferkahnweiler/
Podcast: The Introvert Ally