The Twin Therapists Podcast
Drs. Jude and Julius Austin, identical twin brothers, lift the curtain on the "doing" of psychotherapy. With unwavering honesty, raw vulnerability, and unwavering compassion for the complexities of the human condition, they illuminate the path for both fledgling clinicians and seasoned professionals alike. The Twin Therapists podcast is your gateway to a world where healing meets humanity, leaving no stone unturned in the relentless pursuit of understanding the depths of the human soul.
The Twin Therapists Podcast
Dungeons & Dragons & Therapy
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Discover how the world of Dungeons & Dragons can transform therapy sessions with our guest, Joseph Bennett, an LPC associate from Central Texas. Joseph shares his innovative approach to incorporating this beloved role-playing game into clinical settings. By weaving together the immersive experiences of D&D with therapeutic practices, Joseph offers a unique perspective on enhancing client engagement and personal growth. Whether you're a counselor curious about creative methods or someone interested in the intersections of gaming and mental health, this episode promises to expand your horizons.
Join us as we unravel the concept of "bleed" in role-playing games, where players' emotions and identities interact with those of their characters. Joseph Bennett elaborates on how this dynamic can enrich therapeutic work, as clients explore parts of themselves through their in-game avatars. We discuss how creating and embodying characters can promote insight and development, drawing interesting parallels to therapies like sand tray. This creative approach particularly resonates with neurodivergent individuals, offering a safe space for exploration and skill-building.
In our conversation, Joseph provides a practical guide for therapists interested in integrating D&D into their practice. From crafting vivid worlds to facilitating meaningful client interactions, he shares his experiences and the challenges faced. We explore how role-playing can be a tool for family and couples therapy, breaking down traditional roles and fostering communication through shared narratives. Joseph's passion for this innovative method shines through, as he extends an invitation to counselors and supervisors eager to explore the potential of D&D in therapy. Be prepared to rethink the boundaries of traditional therapeutic techniques with this exciting episode.
If you have any questions about any counseling related topics or would like the twins to share their thoughts about a particular counseling case - reach out with the info below:
https://thetwintherapists.com/
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Contact: thetwintherapists@gmail.com
Exploring Dungeons and Dragons in Therapy
Speaker 3this is julius . I wanted to wanted to come on real quick and introduce our guests for this episode . It's a special guest . It's somebody who's near and dear to our heart . It's a guy by the name of Joseph Bennett . He's a LPC associate in Central Texas . He graduated from the University of Mary Hart in Baylor and he is unfortunately under the supervision of my brother , jude . So during the podcast he was blanking his eyes profusely at me . I think that was a sign of distress . So I'm going to double check . I'm going to double check on your boy , joe . But yeah , joe , and we're having Joe on today because Joe wants to talk to us about the integration of Dungeons and Dragons into the clinical relationship .
Speaker 3He does a really really , really good job of explaining how Dungeons and Dragons can really benefit individual clients that he's serving in his practice couples as well as groups , for sure and he also talks a little bit more about how he wants to introduce Dungeons and Dragons into some of his family sessions . So we talk about how to get started in Dungeons and Dragons . We talk about how he brings it up with particular clients . We talk about how he incorporates it into individuals , couples and group therapy sessions . Um , we talk about um how he uh separates himself as the clinician and the dungeon master and we also talk about um what he he mentioned this term called bleeding , or like a client , a client's uh identity will bleed into a client , into into a character's identity , and vice versa . We also talk about how he knows when the client that he's uh he's working with is ready to do the work . Um , once the the client is kind of like engulfed in the um in the campaign of Dungeons and Dragons . So it was a pretty interesting conversation . Dungeons and Dragons is like an up and coming thing in the clinical sphere . I know it's been around for a while but we're starting to see some integration of Dungeons and Dragons into the relationship , into the clinical relationship . So Joe does a really good job of kind of exploring that with us . So my brother's been playing Dungeons and Dragons with Joe for a while . Joe actually is taking my brother's faculty through a campaign .
Speaker 3I've never played Dungeons and Dragons before in my life so I kind of came at it from a perspective of I have no idea what's going on . So hopefully you enjoyed this episode . If you have any questions about Dungeons and Dragons or like how to incorporate that into your clinical relationships . You can reach out to Joe at his website . His website is herebedragonscounselingcom , so that's H-E-R-E-B-E-D-R-A-G-O-N-S counselingcom . You can set up a meeting with him . He'll , you know and I'm speaking for him now , but he's so laid back and he'll gladly walk you through . You know how to kind of get started in Dungeons and Dragons and like what that's like , to like , incorporate that into your clinical practice . So reach out to them .
Speaker 3Um , if you really you're really interested in this , all right , I hope you enjoy the episode . And you know what . I hope you're taking care of yourself . You know , drinking water , maybe getting enough sleep . You know , uh , not letting the haters keep you down , right , hope you enjoy the episode . How about ? How about ? How about you go ahead and introduce yourself , joe ? Uh , welcome to the cast . This is your first time on the cast , right ?
Speaker 1Yeah , it sure is . It's good to be here . I am a recent graduate of UMHB's counseling program and I somehow got lumped into being a supervisee of Jude over here . So , yeah , that's what I do . I have my own practice that . I'm doing and I do a lot of you know fun and weird stuff , so that's like yeah , I mean , I guess that's me .
Speaker 3Let's just leave it there . Let's let the audience imagination run wild with the weird stuff you do in your office with your clients . Just let it simmer for a little bit .
Speaker 2I'm all right , man , I don't want to be arrested for , you know , keeping my super fuzzy . Well , look , here's the topic , right . It's a special episode , man , because we're talking about some new and up-and-coming on the cusp of research-type style therapy . Dozen Dragons and I know you just started nerding out and I , you know I'm in a campaign , joe's my DM just a lot of layer style relationships .
Speaker 1A lot of multiple relationships going on that's cool .
Speaker 2I'm taking notes right now and reporting to the board you know , but , no , but that's going to be the focus , man , because it was in time magazine right . Uh , I think , joe , you sent me the magazine or you brought the magazine . Yeah , that's like a new and up-and-coming , like expressive type of therapy , right , and that's mainly the focus . I mean , you do individual and couples and you know that stuff , but a large part of your work is to do dnd groups yeah , yeah , that's right , I run that .
Speaker 1I run groups for people and we use dungeons and dragons and um , you know really what it's it's all about is I'm trying to con people into paying me to play one of the games that I really like , because I don't have enough friends around here to play with me .
Speaker 3Now we're getting into it .
Speaker 2I'm recently thinking about doing golf therapy . It's a new up and coming . I'm trying to do something cutting edge , cutting edge . It's a it's a new up and coming .
Speaker 3I'm trying to do something cutting edge . How'd you , how'd you get started in in , like dnd joe , like what ? When was the first time you got introduced to it ?
Speaker 1oh gosh , um . So I got introduced to it when I was in college and had a buddy of mine who randomly came over and was like hey , we're going to play D and D and I'm going to teach you how .
Speaker 3And I was like , okay yeah sure , and you had never . You had never had like an experience or anything .
Speaker 1No , I grew up very sheltered . I wouldn't have been allowed to , you know , engage in any of this . Yes that's right , yeah , this , this , this , this , this devilry were you ?
Speaker 2were you into any ? Were you into like tolkien or ?
Speaker 1yeah , yeah , no , I I love tolkien . Um , I fun fact about myself I read the lord of the rings once a year . Wow , I go through the whole thing . Yeah , I started doing that in college . I got to take a class on . It was pretty , was pretty fun , but I started , you know , I've always been pretty , like you know , nerdy and things like that . So when I got introduced to it it was right up my alley . I had a lot of fun the first time I got to play and then , like once Stranger Things came out and I saw it , I was like I got to get a group together , yeah , and so got some college buddies together and we were part of a campaign that lasted four years . So a lot of fun , yeah .
Speaker 3So well , okay , so , like I'm , I'm the person who's essentially the the most inexperienced with D and D , right , like , yeah , so so I'm going to just ask some questions that , like an audience member would . I'm going to just ask some questions that an audience member would ask right , like one of my students would ask . So like , all right , I'm tying this to this experience . Right ? So me and Jude , we didn't start drinking until we were 21, . Right ?
Speaker 1So like okay , jude , all right , man , I don't want you to get fired .
Speaker 2I don't know if he could talk about this kind of stuff , absolutely .
Speaker 3All right .
Speaker 2Yes , we were drinking apple juice .
Speaker 3We started drinking apple juice when we were 21 because we promised our mom that we would not indulge in such beverages . It was just water from then on , out you out . And so we got introduced to apple juice by this one of our teammates who was a little older , a little bit more experienced with apple juice .
Speaker 3Just let me get to it , man . And so what I felt like was the experience of being introduced to that by somebody who kind of knew what they were doing and had like an experience of like oh yeah , let me just like , let me introduce you into this world in like a very safe kind of intentional way really made the process like I don't know , man , healthy for me . You know , and so I know , that there's a dungeon master right and there's like somebody who like leads you through the process . How , how for you , specifically when you first started , like how was having that introduction to dnd by that one friend like how had that perpetuated your love for them ?
Speaker 1yeah , yeah , so what ? What was it about being introduced to it by a friend of mine that like made that caught my interest so much ? Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , I think it was helpful having somebody there because I didn't have to worry about knowing how , like the mechanics of the game work . I could just show up and , like have a good time , you know , and , um , try and follow like the rules as best I can .
Speaker 1Um , but it mostly just I got to start off with it just being a fun experience and then the more that I got into it , the more that I started just consuming information . You know about it , and I spent , you know , all of my money on , like in the books and dice and you know the whole thing . And then I bought a DM screen , like you know , years before I started playing or before I started running games , just because I knew I wanted to at some point . Wow , but you know , like I , just once I I got into the hobby , like playing it , and was just a very fun experience and having somebody there who could take some of that like take some of the load from that learning curve , and it was very helpful in enabling that process for me .
Speaker 2Yeah , because there comes a . There comes a point where it's like you're like haha , like this is fun , we're playing dnd to like what are the combat rooms ? What are the combat strategies ? What can I do as a level three ? Like you start , I mean you are like you go down a tunnel of shame , you know , because you don't , because you don't want to , you don't want to like meta play things , you don't . You also don't want to find things out about a game that you're you know . So you're kind of like how you do . It's the same with golf . You know not to bring it down .
Speaker 2Here we go and I'm not trying to hijack it with my golf therapy , but it's like it's fun and it's like you walk in and it's like good , and then all of a sudden , maybe you break a hundred and you start thinking maybe I can go pro .
Speaker 3You know let me get some blame . I think that's just very personal , that's very uh . I feel like it's related with everybody .
Speaker 1I don't see the connection at all . I don't see it at all .
Speaker 2There is a strong connection . There is a connection , there is a strong lasso type . It's basically the same game .
Speaker 1These are the same things .
Speaker 3Well no , I'm just thinking about , like I got some students who have one in particular student who's like very interested in in because he's been playing dnd for a while and he's interested in like adopting that type of uh , like clinical approach , right , but then there's a lot of clinicians who have no idea that you can that this , this is even an option for you know . So I'm thinking like , okay , if there's a gateway into experiencing this would be to find somebody who actually knows what they're doing , right , and then like experience it yourself .
Speaker 2Right .
Speaker 3Yeah , most things you can make mistakes .
Speaker 2Yeah , exactly .
Speaker 1Yeah , that sounds . That sounds like a really nice way to get into it as a you know , a dungeon master clinician . Right At the same time , you know how many people are out there doing this that you can experience yourself . It's hard to get into that world . I didn't have anybody to really point me in the right way . I had to convince my supervision group to let me experiment on them when I was in the program , like you know .
Speaker 1I was really fortunate that I was in an environment where I could take in as much information from outside sources and then try and figure out how I do it . You know right and for myself , but it's hard to find people out there who are doing this in you know , who are nearby you , where you can learn from them .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , it does feel like . It does feel like , and I want to . I want to talk a little bit more about how it is as like a therapeutic intervention or technique or process , about how it is . That's like a therapeutic intervention or technique or process , you know , but I do feel like D&D is one of those things . It's like a fight club , right ? Do you know what I mean ?
Speaker 1I know what a fight club is , but you're going off on one of these places that I'm still not sure where it's going to end up , I just like to let them cook for a little bit .
Speaker 2like to let them cook for a little bit . You know , I feel like there's a D&D game happening right here , like six miles away , or maybe even on campus .
Speaker 3I just don't know about it .
Speaker 2I just don't know about it . I feel like D&D is one of those things that people don't talk about . Know . It's like . I feel like dnd is one of those things that's like people don't talk about , but it's happening , and it's like there's a strong community , oh yeah , of players who do this . You know what I mean . There's like people who go to these groups and they get to play out their lived experience , things that they've experienced in high school or college or in their relationships , you know . But it's just like like if I had a client who I felt like needed some experiential kind of even systemic desensitization , but they could get that from a Dean campaign , I wouldn't even know . Well , now I know you , but before we were doing it , where would I even tell them to go ? Yeah , do you know what I mean ? Yeah , like , so it's one of those things that's just like . It's like fight club . It's like happening under nobody talks about it .
Speaker 3Yeah , I wouldn't even . I wouldn't have even known that , that , like , as a clinician , I wouldn't have even known that that was an option for
Exploring Therapeutic Role-Playing in Counseling
Speaker 3a client . You know , like , when I think of stuff like that , I think my mind goes directly to sandrae . You know , like , when I think of stuff like that , I think my mind goes directly to sand tray , you know , or like some expressive art you know type of thing . It doesn't go to like , oh , I need to find a dungeon master and get like a D&D campaign started to like really live out what you're experiencing in your relationship with your husband or whatever . It's not even a thing that I think about , you know . So , yeah , it's like a completely different way of viewing the therapeutic relationship .
Speaker 1So yeah , I'm glad you actually brought up sand tray .
Speaker 2If I could , jump in with that .
Speaker 1Yeah . So , like one of the ways that I kind of try and you know , explain what this is all about with people is using something like sand tray . You know you're often given this prompt , you know , like let's make a scene in the sand and let's , you know , build something here and then using dungeons and dragons for for therapy . It's kind of like getting a whole bunch of people to like build characters in the sand and then become those characters and then get in the sandbox and start playing , you know , and so it's an embodied experience that you get to have , but it's also very symbolic in a way , like sand tray might be .
Speaker 3Oh , so okay . So how do you ? How do you ? How do you ? This sounds like such a wide ranging question , but like , how do you do it ? Like , how question , but how do you do it ? How do you incorporate it into your practice ?
Speaker 1Yeah . So it is in some ways a wide-ranging question because there's so many possible things that you could do with it , which is part of the challenge of using something like this for therapy . And even I'm going off on a small tangent here , but even when I first started this , I had to kind of sit down with the faculty after I graduated and we ran like a very short campaign that was just all about like figuring out how how do I do this ? Yeah , yeah , which was very helpful because kind of out of that , I learned that the way that I like to kind of use this is to encourage people to basically build out these characters that they get to play , and these characters need to be tied to themselves in some kind of known way . So you know , you might have a goal of working on , you know , I don't know being less anxious or something like that .
Speaker 1And so what would it be like to play a character who's really brave , you know ? Or you could do some like what is it Paradoxical intention ? What would it be like to play a character who's way more anxious than you are sure ? And then you get that embodied experience of kind of owning anxiety and being in control of it . Yeah , you could also do it with like some more like kind of polarity or shadow work , where it's like maybe your character isn't quite so anxious , you know , or they're not anxious , but it's not because there's like this particularly brave quality about them . Maybe they're actually really foolish , yeah , and they're just like they just don't even realize , you know , the kind of trouble that they're going to get into . Or maybe they're just really reckless and they just don't give a crap about you know what their like , the consequences of their actions might be , and those are perhaps , you know , for that person , a part of themselves that they could stand to lean into a little bit more .
Speaker 1And so my goal as the clinician is to encourage them to build these really fleshed out characters , and then my job is to present them with things that are going to challenge that character , but also to notice when they're not leaning into those things , yeah , and then we kind of sort through that as it's coming up . So so you could .
Speaker 3So in a way , you're like ah , mama , you this is a lack of a for a better word but like monitor the client's experience and like modulate a character building , world building in a way that like suits what the client needs to explore , or maybe had said that they want to explore .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's definitely . That's one element of it . And then there's also this other piece too . One of our faculty members who was part of the summer like short campaign that we did was playing a character who her character was supposed to be very talkative and very engaged in ways that she personally is not as much . And and what I noticed is that whenever she's interacting with like a non-player character that's in the game , like the local blacksmith or something like that , she's kind of narrating her experience without actually embodying and playing that . So , for example , she might say , like you know , while I go up to the blacksmith and you know I have a conversation with him and ask him about what's going on in his life , yeah , but she'll just kind of narrate it like that and my one of my jobs is to encourage her to find a way to do more . So you and I are going to I'm now going to become the blacksmith and let's have that conversation together .
Speaker 3So you , so you as the dungeon master , embody the blacksmith . Oh , this is so interesting . You , you embody the blacksmith , and you , you help the client or the person in the group to explore the aspect of their identity or their personality that you , you know , that they kind of need help with .
Speaker 1Yeah , and even you know you could put it in a skills way if you want to , where , if you don't , you know , like this , this kind of therapy is also really great for people who are neurodivergent , might have some social skills that that they're lacking , you know , and you can literally just sit around practicing talking to um , to to people , yeah , and , and that's really , you know , helpful , sure , but but the other thing too is it has that it has that added benefit of like , of like somebody doing the thing that they need to work on without actually like doing that yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean like sometimes in therapy we can be like , okay , we're gonna do an activity where we're gonna practice talking , but with this it's like they could do the practice , but almost like they're just playing the game . Yeah it's not yeah , it's , it's it's , it's it tricky . It doesn't trigger their insecurities as much as if , like you were just saying , okay , talk to me about your date . Yeah .
Speaker 1Which may trigger them . It kind of lowers some psychological defenses because we're creating a lot of distance between what the characters are experiencing and what you're going through . So , like in my own practice and all this , I'm very experientially driven and I might sit own , like you know , practice and all this , I'm very experientially driven and I might sit down , you know , and embody your like abusive father or something like that . You know , and we're going to have a conversation and you're going to say some things to me . You know that you wish you could have said or something like that but in dungeons and dragons therapy I don't have to do that . I can , can just put a I don't know like a vampire in the game who is like charming people and taking advantage of people and he acts in some of those same ways . But then you have to have like an encounter with him and you have to overcome him . Right , you know , but it doesn't feel like you're going back to that .
Speaker 2You know , like that father , whoever it may , whoever may have been .
Speaker 1Yeah , you could actually just like roll some dice and , you know , kill some monsters and and play through some experiences , you know yeah , but I'm assuming that there's a fair amount of the client's own mental uh , imagery that's happening .
Speaker 3That's like creating the scaffolding of the vampire that like that's fitting pieces of their like abusive father right and like so you know I'm counting on it yeah , yeah . Yeah , they kind of like piece together what the you know what the character is going to look like , based off of their , their traumatic experience .
Speaker 1So , in a way , all you have to do is kind of set up the , set up the arena for that , yes , for that to happen yeah , all I have to do is really set it up for them , create a space where that kind of work can take place , and then I have to be able to like and this is , I think , what separates like dungeon masters from dungeon master clinicians- sure and is . I'm not just setting up this immersive space , but I have to be aware of when they're entering the work .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 1I have to be aware of . When we're into something that is like like when they're coming into contact with something important . You know , and it's important , like this moment is something worth leaning into .
Speaker 3How do you do that ? How do you do that Like ? How do you bridge that gap between like ? Is there like a switch that flips in your head where you're like oh , the work has started .
Speaker 1Yeah , sometimes . So I pay attention
Character Bleed in Therapy Dungeons
Speaker 1. This is a concept that I first heard about from Dr Megan Connell , who has a book and was one of the first people to really start publicizing this kind of therapy as a whole . Bleed and basically like you can bleed into your character or your character can bleed out to you . So what I mean by that is there are times when we're role-playing these characters , where , you know , my character might be experiencing something totally different than what I'm experiencing , because my actual experience is I'm just sitting around a table with some friends rolling some dice , you know whatever . But if I get , you know , just really pissed at something that Jude's doing , you know , then my character might start to take on some of that anger and might , I don't know , want to take revenge on you know Jude's character for something he didn't . You know , like something that's not actually happening . Yeah , for something he didn't you know , like something that's not actually happening Happening , yeah .
Speaker 1Then the other , the other thing that I think sometimes happens uh , perhaps a bit more frequently is this concept of your character bleeding out to you . So we're in this immersive experience together and I'm trying to like trigger all of your anxiety . You know , like I'm trying to like you know , if you're fighting this , your anxiety . You know like I'm trying to like you know if you're fighting this monster . You know I want there to be some music going . I want there to be some stakes .
Speaker 3I want you to get your heart pumping a little sweat , a little butt sweat coming yeah yeah , yeah , no .
Speaker 1So the the first time that , like our first session , that we did for this faculty campaign , like the first thing I did was I got each of them in a dark room and I narrated a nightmare to them . Holy , it was dope . Like , based off of their like character backstories that we just spent like hours working on and all of this stuff , and they were pretty graphic and gruesome . You know , especially June Wait who makes this .
Speaker 3Because I'm an idiot .
Speaker 1Who makes this up ?
Speaker 3Joe , you make up the nightmare . Yeah , what type of devious dark stuff has happened to you in the past , to where you're like .
Speaker 1Oh yeah , you put a vampire dragon man . What have you seen out there ?
Speaker 3Wow , that's a wow , so okay , so just let me , because I'm the most experienced one here . So you spend hours with the individual person in the group to create their character , and so , essentially , you co create this character with them .
Speaker 2Yeah , think of it as like a pre , like you know if you were going to start a therapy group , right ? You ?
Speaker 3would have that like sure sure sure you know , like you know .
Speaker 2tell me a little bit about yourself . What's going on for you , what do ?
Speaker 3you feel like .
Speaker 2Yeah , the group . How can I support ?
Speaker 3you to do that .
Speaker 2You know that's kind of what it is , except you're building this character . And I don't know just from my experience of building my own character like man , it's like it's front of games and it's like I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that and then all of a sudden you're like oh , this is actually a little bleed that you were talking about , joe , yeah .
Speaker 3So yeah , this is actually part of my own stuff . Yeah , yeah , yeah , oh , yeah . So tell me about this , tell me about this nightmare , that that that you concocted for for Brother Jude here .
Speaker 1Oh my gosh , Let me see . Well , I want to , I want to share some like elements of it , without you know , without spoiling some stuff about his character .
Speaker 2We'll still make it yeah .
Speaker 3I can't say anything , just give me something .
Speaker 1I can't say that none of the other players at this table trust his character because he seems so sketchy to them . So it is him , it is him .
Speaker 2For the life of me , Jesus , for the life of me . I don't understand , Of course . You don't , Honestly , man ?
Speaker 3it's a dissonance . Of course it is yes , yes , yes .
Speaker 1We're opening some childhood wounds .
Speaker 3Yeah , will he ? Does he have my back ? Does he not have my back ? Can ?
Speaker 2I count on him , can I not ?
Speaker 3count on him .
Speaker 2What is ?
Speaker 3this this has been something , Joe , that's been echoed throughout our family for decades . Now I'm glad you're finally bringing this out to the light . Good the confusion feeds me .
Speaker 2That's how I live .
Understanding Dungeons and Dragons Therapy
Speaker 2No , but you know what man like and you can you in a way tell the listeners like what , like , what is dnd like , what do you do ? Because I don't think people know .
Speaker 1Like , yeah , just like what you do . Yeah , they're just not even understanding where we're at podcasting ?
Speaker 2yeah , I would , I would , I would imagine , I would imagine that people , like , when they hear dnd , they think of like nerds in a place .
Speaker 1Yeah , just like hitting each other with . Well , I mean , that's what it is , you know , like that's that's all it is . No , so , so D and D , you know , dungeons and Dragons belongs to this , like family of games that are called tabletop role-playing games , and basically the way that they work is that you have one person who's a player at the table who kind of acts as a referee , who's familiar with the rules , but who helps to basically as a referee , um , who's familiar with the rules , um , but who helps to basically um , create a setting , um , totally imaginary , uh huh , um , like and um , my job is to know , as this referee , the dungeon master , my job is to create a world for um , the other players at the table to play a game of imagination . Right , so you know , you each have a character that you get to control , kind of like in a video game . But the difference is , because we're just sitting around a table doing this , there's no preset prompts like you don't have . You know , these , like in video games , you you're limited by whatever is coded in there , right ? So you have , like you know , you're presented with the problem . You have like three different choices , you know , and , but with tabletop role-playing games , the only limit is really your own imagination , and so what happens is I narrate a scene . You guys are sitting in a tavern and suddenly a bear crashes through the window . What do you do ? And then the players will respond with what actions they take , and it's my job to know what are going to be the consequences of those actions . Yeah , um , but it's not all left up to me .
Speaker 1So role-playing , tabletop role-playing games use dice , that kind of simulate um , what chance is like sure so . So you say that you want to do an action , and if it's not something that's , you know , like totally easy to do , I might have you roll a die , and if you roll pretty high on it , then you succeed . Yeah , but if you don't roll high enough , then you fail , and so it simulates you . You know success and failure , and I mean you can get more down into the weeds of it . Like characters all have bonuses to their stats and sometimes penalties .
Speaker 1So maybe you're just very weak and so all of your strength roles that you make you have to subtract like five . Like that'd be a huge weakness . Yeah , but if you're really strong , maybe you get to subtract like five , like that'd be a huge weakness . Yeah , um , but if you're really strong , maybe you get to add five , you know . So it simulates those kinds of um things , but it's , it's a very unique way of of playing a game and it requires um , some creative thinking , um , but also just um , it's . It's all a silly little game of imagination where has this game been all my life ?
Speaker 3I cannot keep the smile off my face . As you're talking about this , joe , like when you said the bear crashes in , I'm thinking all kinds of hell would break loose .
Speaker 1Like I don't think .
Speaker 3I don't think anybody wants to see me in their dungeon campaign , I will be .
Speaker 2Yeah , but see Jesus , it has to be realistic because Jews would do some stuff . Like the bear crashed in . I picked up my mug of apple juice and drank it down to the bottom , Got my grenade launcher and then I crapped up under the bear's guard .
Speaker 3I got under it , got under grenade launcher . I crept up under the bear's guard , I got under it , got under the guard , gave it a nice hug and a tight squeeze . I whispered .
Speaker 2I whispered .
Speaker 3This will go slowly , as I took out my shard blade .
Speaker 1See , you're a natural at this . There's no reason you couldn't do this . Wow , wow , yeah , see you're a natural at this . Yeah , yeah , there's no reason you couldn't do this . Wow , wow , so OK , so it not . Right now , you're doing this with individual clients while I was still a student in my program .
Speaker 2I don't know how that was allowed .
Speaker 1They let you do that , they let me just do all this kind of stuff , man . So I got started doing that and I still do that , which might be surprising to people that actually play Dungeons and Dragons , because it's not really thought of as something you can do with one other person With one person , yeah .
Speaker 1But you can . Certainly it's a little bit more challenging , but certainly using it in groups that are targeting like specific issues . You know we can , we can make a counseling group about that as well . So I do a bit of both . One of the things I haven't gotten the chance to do yet but I'm really intrigued by , and I just need to convince somebody to let me , you know , do it to them .
Speaker 1It's like using this in family therapy because , like you , it's , it's like it's nuts . You get these people who are are used to whatever rules that they they play in their family system . Yeah , now let's just create these characters and all you guys are on the same playing field . Yeah , and you all have like different rules . You know what's it like , you know , for for mom to not have authority anymore because she's just you know , another random person in here . What's it like for this kid that you're playing with to have a bit more power than they're used to ? Yeah , um , and what kind of ? What kind of roles do they accidentally slip into ? Yeah , so it gets me excited as a way of like kind of mapping out like how family systems interact in different situations . You know , yeah , and so I . So I'd like to do that . I haven't had the chance for that yet , but oh man , I'm chomping at the bit .
Speaker 2Can you imagine , man ? Can you imagine like you're working with a family ? And you know part of their problem is maybe like their communication style , you know , and maybe they take these like , let's say , we're going to be satire , right , and we're going to . You know they each take these different communication stances in the relationship and you know they're going to build their characters unconsciously based off of the stances , characters unconsciously based off of the stances that they take . That's like the DM , the clinical DM , which is , you know , coined that term , you know the clinical DM . They have to be aware that , like , Ooh , this person takes the blame or position in their relationships , or this person takes the relevant position . They're going to do that in D&D and so I feel like the power of D&D is that nobody gets a pass , like , especially when you're in combat . It's like dog , it's you , what are you doing ?
Speaker 3you can't well , yeah , because how much of it is the character that you're playing ? And how much of it is like actually what you would do in that situation .
Speaker 2You have to take the congruent position . Sometimes it forces you to be different .
Speaker 1Sure , because you can't play the game that way , because you're constantly presented with obstacles , sometimes with no clear solutions , and there could be multiple right ways . You also just people start slipping into you know , like , who tends to freeze whenever they're faced with lots of choices , who tends to , like , take initiative . I mean you just kind of you slip into these roles without realizing it . The way that you act in the real world is also the way that you act in the game , so so , thank you , yeah , yeah , yeah , oh man , it really it really draws on like the loneliness of of choice .
Speaker 2you know , like , when it comes down to it , you know , because there's times where , like , there's times where we play right , like in our camp , and you know we're new to dvd , and so there's times where , like , you're in combat and maybe it's your turn to go , but you're're on deck , you know , and you know , like , where we are .
Speaker 2You know you play like an isolated person , just like you know , throwing sticks at a demon . You know , like , instead of like , working together , you know , and flank them and get a thing and all that stuff , but like you , when it's your turn , you know and flank them and get a thing and all that stuff , but like you , you , when it's your turn , you know , because , isn't it like in combat , it's really like six seconds , like these things are happening in seconds . You know , and if I'm a kid and if I struggle to make decisions on my own , independently and I rely on my mom and I have a list of spells and actions and things I can do , and I'm on deck , and then now I'm up and I'm looking at my mom to be like , what should I do like as the clinical dm ? You have to be like mom , respectfully , yeah . Yeah , you know , and you're like looking at the kid , like you can do anything you want to do . You're only limited by your imagination , yeah .
Speaker 3What do you mean , man ? How , how empowering that is , you know ? For yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2I know , yeah , you know , like you know , and , and and disruptive to the to , you know , and disruptive to the only shareholder , to the system .
Speaker 1Yeah , one of the things that I hadn't really thought of this until you started talking . So it might be , you know , total nonsense , but I'm going to roll with it . Yeah , it's interesting to me to think about how playing this game because we're playing together we're lowering some vulnerability , we're being a bit more congruent , and so one of the things that takes place is you are actually , while you're playing , forming relationships congruently with other people , right In ways that doesn't typically happen in in real life . So there's also an element , too , to where it's like , you know , my character can't help but act like how I am yeah you know .
Speaker 1so what's it like for this character to also be surrounded by all of these other people and then to be a part of a team ? Yeah , and to be a part of a group where the way that I do things has consequences and sometimes , you know , maybe it's not everybody's like , maybe it's not always everybody's cup of tea , but I have this like place of belonging here and I'm like a valued member of this group .
Speaker 3Sure , yeah , man , that would . Yeah , I'm as so , like Joe , as you're talking . I'm thinking about like my family and what it would be like for my family to do this , you know , and my daughter . I have three kids and my daughter's the middle , the middle kid . Now we're having our fourth here in in April , but my daughter sometimes can tend to feel like the middle kid , you know , not like powerless .
Speaker 3I think she doesn't recognize how much power she has , and just being like a self-aware dad to watch her make decisions that will affect the whole group in D&D would be not only great for her but it would be dope for me too as somebody just to watch her say like okay , I'm going to , you know , just to use the example of the bear coming in the window , like I'm going to be the first to attack the bear , you know , because my daughter probably would . It would be like a shock to the system for her older brother to like also watch her do that in the game . You know , yeah , yeah , man , it has like incredible implications for , like you know , especially family therapy , you know . But how do you ? So this may take us out of the process , but I'm wondering , like , how do you bring it up with a client , like how do you say like hey , I think this would be a good fit for ?
Speaker 2you there's .
Speaker 1there's definitely this , this process that has to take place right where I I kind of like get the sense that the things we're working on , um , um , they have to be , for one thing , somewhat similar to what I'm working on with some other clients . There has to be like a um a thing , unless we're just doing some individual work , um , you know , but um , typically it's when I notice that people are really willing to to lean into this and at least you trust me enough to like move you from chair to chair in here .
Role-Playing Therapy in Counseling
Speaker 3Yes .
Speaker 1Yeah , play , play like you know different ages of yourself and all this stuff you know . And if you trust me with that , maybe you'll trust me with , like this , dungeons and Dragons , you know game . Trust me with , like this , dungeons and dragons , you know game . So so it , you know , some people will come to me specifically for this experience because it's a um , it's not something that hardly anybody is doing out there .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 1Um , but you know , for people who I think this is a good fit , you know , then that's just kind of a conversation , um , um , especially if they get a lot of benefit out of the more embodied stuff that we do together .
Speaker 3Sure , sure , so that has to be a pretty rich , you know . Like a connection to the possibility that this may be a good fit for .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , you know , I haven't had , I haven't had this happen yet , but you know , and I question the ethics of it a little bit but the you know , but the people who struggle to engage with some of these embodied experiments that are going on , you know , these are the people that I'm like man , I want you know . So I haven't recommended it to them before , you know , but it's got me like a little curious about , like you know , maybe this is a good like exercise for you , you know .
Speaker 1But then I got to like sell them on it you know , yeah as well , but it's . It's got a lot of benefit for people that are willing to engage creatively in this kind of way , and for people that aren't , it can help stretch some of those muscles .
Speaker 3Sure , well , I feel like a lot of the stuff that we do in therapy sometimes is you know , essentially like selling , you know a technique , or selling a , a a cabinet client buy into , like , hey , you know something that's uncomfortable or something that's unfamiliar for the client you know yeah , or something that's unfamiliar for the client .
Speaker 1You know , yeah , there's . There's nothing like saying hey , I know you came here for some therapy .
Speaker 3What if we played dungeons and dragons ?
Speaker 1you know , like what , if we just roll some dice , what is this , what ?
Speaker 3is this die doing here ? Wow , that's yeah what if ?
Speaker 1whoa , well , let's what if you were just like a wizard , you know , we just kind of like you know . Yeah , man , yeah , wow , wow , Wow All right , it can be a hard sell , you know .
Speaker 3Yeah , I know some clients who would , who would love to do it . I don't know if they would do it on like an individual level or if they would do it in a group , but it's just , you know , as you say , that stuff the the rolodex of clients in my head that would benefit from it . It's it's especially couples that would benefit from it yeah , you start seeing .
Speaker 2You start seeing , like oh my gosh man , they just had this argument like yeah , or or or .
Speaker 3What my thoughts were is that there's an argument that needs to be had within the structure of the relationship that surrounds power dynamics . And if I could just sprinkle a vampire in and like tell them no , of course you're not having this argument , you're playing D&D , but like watch the argument play out via the vehicle of D&D , but like watch the argument play out via the vehicle of D&D , you know . And then like come out of the game and like have a conversation about you know what their experience was and what they learned , and like whatever .
Speaker 1Yeah , it would , man , it would benefit this couple so much , you know . Yeah , one of the again something I haven't had the opportunity with , but I'm kind of developing it right now . I'm interested in collaborative world building with clients , so basically where , like our first session , we show up and we make some characters and then I say , okay , this is the town where you guys are going to start , what else is in this like world ? But I want them to be able to create , like , you know , something that ties into the story that they've developed for their . Yeah , yeah , yeah . And so what's it , like , you know , for that husband who's , you know , like always felt like emasculated by everybody , you know , maybe that ties into his character background and it's a part of his story . Yeah , um , and there's some conflict that's happening out in this imaginary world , um , but now , you know , like his wife gets to be a part of the solution of that story , without , you know , being the enemy . Yeah , they get to work together , yeah , you know . And then , without being the person , that's an agamemnon .
Speaker 1they're making suggestions , and then and vice versa to each person gets the opportunity to like work through , like their story and the story that they've developed .
Speaker 3Wow man .
Speaker 1Cause , then cause . Then you start drawing in like all the narrative stuff you know , and it's like it's externalizing , um , but it's . But it's also like um , I don't know , just giving people a lot of opportunities to really be empowered , yeah , and to take ownership of of something , yeah , so it's , oh gosh , it's cool , and I feel like I'm .
Speaker 1you know , when I think about this medium in particular , it's really difficult because I feel like all the time I'm thinking of new ways that it can be used , sure , and so it's hard to try and like settle into just one thing , you know .
Speaker 3Well , how much cause ? I know we're coming to like the end of the hour here , but , like I'm wondering , how much time outside of session do you spend building worlds for clients ?
Speaker 1time outside of session . Do you spend building worlds for clients ? I spend a lot of time at the beginning and then , because I want to have enough content that's prepared , yep , um , but you know like I'll use the example of this , this group that I'm running with jude , I spent probably in preparation before our first session , somewhere between like six or eight hours .
Speaker 3Okay .
Speaker 1Prepping some stuff outside of session .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 1And then the good news about that was then , for the next like five weeks , I didn't touch it at all .
Speaker 2Okay .
Speaker 1Because it takes a lot of time to play through that content .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 1Yeah , and so you spend some time . This is how I do it . At least I spend that time at the beginning , being sure that there's enough content in case , like what happens if they fly through everything , versus what happens if they but people generally take a long time to get through stuff . So cause , you're terrified .
Speaker 2Yeah , you're terrified the whole time . Like you mean because you're terrified . You're terrified Like you can go , like you can go through a campaign and you know you can . Like you know the bear . The bear falls into the window and now it's like you're in a tavern and the bear is there and you can go , like I scream and then run away and now I'm outside .
Speaker 1And if everybody does that , you know that encounter could have easily taken like 30 minutes .
Speaker 2you know to run through all of that , but now , instead it's like okay , we just bypassed all of that , there's a bear in there just rampaging A bunch of NPCs .
Speaker 3That's just like what the hell .
Speaker 1Maybe you have like a druid in there who's like wait , I want to talk to this , this bear , like I want to whisper to it and find out like what's going on in its life . You know and and why is it here ? You know like who , what drove it this way and now , suddenly , something that I only thought is going to take like 20 minutes ends up taking like two hours .
Speaker 1You know because , yeah , it's , and so it's . It's a bit of you know , a combination of those things . So I like to prepare enough , at least at the beginning , so I have less to do later yeah , I'm about that action .
Speaker 3If , if we , if we ever do a campaign , it ain't gonna be no talking , it ain't gonna be no talking . Hey , I'll kill something that has vital information for the whole group .
Speaker 2Jeez , he's the kind of player that's like if somebody's taking too long to talk .
Speaker 3He's like hey man , we gotta get JaVale Holla Like what are we talking about ?
Speaker 1My first experience in the game . I didn't really know how the game ended . So , like our job was to go in and rescue the blacksmith's daughter , right , and we've been playing for like three hours and I'm like , I don't know , we rescued her , we're done , I guess you know . But I but we're still playing I , my character , just turns and starts attacking the blacksmith's daughter , like because I didn't really know , like I was like I guess I have to end it somehow , you know . But , um , like because I just I didn't know , you know , but like I mean , I , I get it there's , there's all kinds of nonsense . Oh man , I'm not sure what that says about me .
Speaker 2Yeah , I get it . Yeah , yeah , I've been meaning to talk to you about that , your friends , but no man , you could make this . Like you know , we went through a house , got done with the house , turned around , and then you know , I don't know who had the idea , but it was like we should burn this house down . And then you just do it Allegedly .
Speaker 1Yeah , only come to find out that the house came back . It's nuts .
Speaker 2Crazy thing about haunted .
Speaker 1You can't really trust man . I would love to .
Speaker 3If there's ever any time for June , me and you to go through a campaign together , it won't be , you know . Obviously I'm just , you know , joking about the whole rampage thing , but there is a part of me that is interested in seeing how our clinical perspectives and our clinical style plays a role in what type of characters we choose , our identity and how we go through the campaign . I'd be interested to see and I'm pretty sure there's some people that's that's some listeners out there that love to hear us go through it , you know . So one day , one day , we'll reconnect and try to try to get this thing started , man .
Speaker 2Yeah , I'll set it up we need . How long do we need ? Probably like an hour and a half to two hours .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , we can do it in an hour and a half , two hours . You could do a whole campaign in an hour and a half to two hours , nah , but we could do a special episode .
Speaker 3A special episode .
Speaker 1We can do these things . It's called a one-shot . When you have an adventure , it's a campaign that's self-contained , it all takes place in one session so it doesn't span several weeks or whatever . So whatever you know , like . So it's something small , you know , but like you can you can do those things .
Speaker 3Whoa , yeah , all right , I'm in . Man , hey , hey , man , joe , thank you so much for showing up . Man Like this is , this is more than I bargained for and I felt like there's like this whale that we can dive into . When it comes to like , you know how do you influence your theoretical orientation into , like your work with this stuff ? You know , like yeah .
Speaker 1That's actually all , jude , and I do it again .
Speaker 3There's no supervision going on .
Speaker 1We don't talk about any of my . We just keep tomorrow .
Speaker 3I'm just playing D and D with just him . What if , what if I get this blade that's made of bone and it's from that ?
Speaker 1But the blade is Struck by lightning .
Speaker 2You're joking .
Speaker 3Oh man , alright .
Speaker 2It's not too far off . It's not too far off .
Speaker 3Well appreciated , joe . You got any final thoughts , questions , reactions , wonderments for Joe here .
Speaker 2Tell him before we go . Tell him a little bit about oh yeah , man , if anybody's interested . If any listeners out there are interested in listening or finding you . Where can they find you ?
Speaker 1Yeah , sure , so I've got a state of the art website . Thank you , squ squarespace for that . You know , um , but it's , it's so . It's herebedragonscounselingcom . You know you can come check it out . See a little bit about me , um , and what I do
Therapeutic Dungeons and Dragons Options
Speaker 1.
Speaker 1If you're somebody who is interested in , you know , like , if you live in texas and you want you know you want to receive this therapy , you know , for yourself . You know , shoot me an email . You know , if you know , if Texas and you want to receive this therapy for yourself , shoot me an email . If there's a large enough quantity of interested individuals , maybe we can put something together . But also , if you're a counseling student , if you're a counselor and you're interested in what it might be like to try this on for yourself , you know what it might be like to to try this on for yourself . You know we can also talk some like non-therapeutic legal options for for us to engage in conversation , consultation , um . So , yeah , you can , you can find my , uh , my email there . Uh , you can , uh , you know , shoot me a message , give me a call , um .
Speaker 2And yeah , so Even clinicians like if you're maybe a supervisor at a small private practice and you want to do some team building stuff , where you , you know , you put your employees and you put your other clinicians in like a scenario and play through it . I mean , that's what Joe's doing for our faculty , you know , and so it's really cool to see us navigate different things . That's just fun .
Speaker 1He also does that . We can do that on a weekly basis if you want to just get me in for a day to come in and you basically just have a day that's dedicated to Dungeons Dragons . That was quite the alliteration , if I do say so myself . I like it . But if you want that , you know we can make that happen too , you know . So it's a . You know this can be whatever you know it needs to be for you . So just come check out my website , shoot me an email , give me a holler , you know , and yeah . Or if you just want to learn more about how you can use this yourself or what it might even look like to get started and you want some resources , I'd be more than happy to point you in some directions .
Speaker 3Cool All right , Joe man , Appreciate you coming in man , All right .
Speaker 1Appreciate it .
Speaker 3Thank you .
