What is healthy supervision?

Passionate soccer fan and esteemed academic, Dr. Gülşha Kemer, joins us to share her journey through the world of academia and her love for the Turkish soccer team, Beşiktaş. Her insights shine a light on the importance of informal interactions in building strong professional relationships, akin to a "marriage" among colleagues. In this engaging conversation, we explore how seemingly simple activities like group chats and shared hobbies, such as Dungeons & Dragons, can create a supportive and collaborative atmosphere within academic settings.

Have you ever felt like an imposter in your academic or professional role? In our second chapter, we tackle this common experience head-on, particularly in the context of doctoral supervision. Both students and supervisors often grapple with the pressure to appear knowledgeable, but Dr. Kemer emphasizes the power of vulnerability and open-mindedness as tools for growth. By embracing the uncertainties of academia, we learn how imposter syndrome can be transformed from a barrier into a motivator for continuous development and learning.

Navigating the cultural dynamics and systemic challenges within academic institutions can be a daunting task. Through personal anecdotes, we discuss the vital need for alignment between personal and professional values, and the role of strong leadership in fostering a healthy faculty culture. We also explore the complexities of faculty responsibilities, balancing the demands of teaching, research, and service with personal boundaries. This episode encourages educators to model professional growth for students by prioritizing tasks and navigating the unique pressures faced by counselor educators, ultimately promoting a holistic approach to personal and professional development.

If you have any questions about any counseling related topics or would like the twins to share their thoughts about a particular counseling case  - reach out with the info below: 

https://thetwintherapists.com/

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Transcript

Reflections on Good Supervision

Speaker 2 0:14

well , hey , man geez , are you recording this ? I ?

Speaker 3 0:17

started recording , yeah I got I got a good I got a good 30 minutes because i're interviewing an associate professor today at like 1030 .

Speaker 1 0:28

So we're going to go there . Good luck with the search . Yeah , a lot of work .

Speaker 3 0:32

Yeah , the searches are always like hit and miss , sometimes Like they look really great on paper and then you do an interview and it's like , oh , okay , I don't think I want to spend the rest of my career next door to you .

Speaker 2 0:45

You're marrying somebody . You're marrying somebody . There's no way to get around it .

Speaker 1 0:50

That's a great way of putting it into words , right ? We see ? Our colleagues , more than we see our partners and our kids . We spend quite a bit of time with our colleagues at work .

Speaker 2 1:01

Yeah man .

Speaker 1 1:02

I mean , we're at a different era now . It's not as much as we used to , but we communicate with them a lot more . You definitely want somebody who is going to be collegial .

Speaker 3 1:12

I feel like I'm always in a group chat with my faculty about just , you know , random . You know what are we doing for the holiday potluck , all the way to oh that's hey the power turned off in the building so nobody come in today . You know just , uh . You know how was football this weekend . You know how was . How was your kid soccer like ? We just have a group chat where like that's what we talk about .

Speaker 1 1:36

That's so sweet we got a good thing .

Speaker 3 1:38

We got a good thing going over here . You know , I send uh kid pictures and my .

Speaker 2 1:44

My faculty is weird . We're in a D&D campaign , dungeons and Dragons campaign together . So my faculty , we're weird , it's fun , though it's so fun . You know that's not weird , that's just we fought . What do we ? We fought we fought some demons together , that's some tree creatures . The other day as a faculty you know , throwing spells .

Speaker 1 2:12

Well , you know , I love that you're talking about that and you both are telling me , like you know , that's how it should be .

Speaker 2 2:19

I think that's how it should be . I think that's how it should be .

Speaker 1 2:22

Constantly talking about counseling , counselor ed training , counselors training supervisors , doing research , and you know it gets old after a while , I know man , it really does All right .

Speaker 2 2:34

Well , should we officially start , julius , you want to officially welcome them ?

Speaker 3 2:38

Yeah , how about you ?

Speaker 2 2:39

take it away man .

Speaker 2 2:41

Okay , well , listeners , welcome back Another podcast . I don't know what number this is 60 , 55 . I'm happy to be here . We , we have a guest , and to say a guest is it doesn't capture the , the influence I feel like this person has on my lived experience , and vicariously through yours , julius , because I just won't shut up about her . You know , uh , I've been saying this for years , her and her wife I chaired her wife's dissertation and , uh , we've just been doing life together for quite some years , man , and so , um , we have a guest , gusha Kimmer . Dr Gusha Kimmer . Look , I don't know how you want to introduce yourself , gusha , but you have the floor .

Speaker 1 3:34

What do you want them to know about you , man ? I mean , you know what ? I can take a long route , short route and , like the vibe of our conversations , I can come from both personal and professional angles .

Speaker 2 3:48

Let's do personal . Okay , if you were going to say one thing about yourself that you feel like students , professional world , personal friends need to know that's like . This is you .

Speaker 1 4:06

What is it ? Well , I'm a big soccer fan . So like we wouldn't call it soccer in Europe , in Turkey we would call it football . So I think , that's something people rarely know .

Speaker 2 4:20

That is true . I don't think people know that enough .

Speaker 1 4:21

That is true , I don't think people know that enough and I try to catch my favorite team's games as much as I can with the time difference and everything in Turkey and they sometimes play in .

Speaker 2 4:33

Europe . Who's your favorite ?

Speaker 1 4:34

team that's games . So it is Beşiktaş out of Turkey .

Speaker 3 4:38

Yeah , yeah , I think me and Jude are probably more familiar with the Turkish league , probably so .

Speaker 1 4:46

I know you do , I know , I know you do , I know you do and you know , I think , the common thing if I recall correctly , we actually recruited a young Turkish player from Arsenal .

Speaker 2 5:04

That I know you both know , at least I know Jude loves Arsenal . I know that place . Wow , here you go .

Speaker 1 5:12

And so he played for us for a long time , like Ozan Öz Yakup . He was really young , but it was in your young team , if I'm not mistaken . And then he went to Netherlands for a few years and he got retired this year . So he's a sucker .

Speaker 2 5:31

I think I did see that . Yeah , Wow , man . Well , that's awesome , man . Well , look , we don't really have an agenda . We never do . And I told you is that we usually like when Gush and I usually talk , we go from every possible angle , man . But , I did have a question , right . Yes , because your research line is on supervision , right ? I feel like a pretty softball question that may take three hours to answer .

Speaker 1 6:02

It's like and you know me , I can't speak for hours about that .

Speaker 2 6:06

What makes a good supervisor For your research ? I guess , just given some of the stuff that you've researched , some stuff that you found , what makes a good supervisor ?

Speaker 1 6:16

I think the very first thing come to me is a reflective supervisor Is a good supervisor Like reflecting on their practice supervisor is a good supervisor like reflecting on their practice and like try to come from different angles , of being empathic with the supervisee as much as they are empathic with the client and also being empathic with themselves because , like , it is so easy to set ourselves in certain standards , particularly since supervision is an evaluative process and we need to put our gatekeeping hats in the running background . Sometimes things can get really task oriented and it needs to happen this way , and sometimes we need to hold the tension in supervision and it's more of a process piece . So like if I , as a supervisor , reflect into those moments and like hold the space for my supervisee and help them reflect and model that reflections to them and remember that I am a human being too , I think that makes a good supervisor .

Speaker 3 7:25

Yeah , I love that . That idea of like I am a human too , you know , I think sometimes gets . There's so much of a power dynamic that exists within the supervisor relationship and I don't know , man , when I was a student I thought my supervisor was a magician . Sometimes was a magician , sometimes because some , because there wasn't really that reflective process of , hey , this is , this was my listen , this was my experience when I was at your level of you know , clinical experience and this is what it was like for me there was no like humanizing the aspect of like the process , so I would be just , you know , doing idiotic first year .

Speaker 3 8:05

you know , uh , clinician stuff , you know , like trying to be too solution focused and trying to find the answer , trying to help you know and my supervisor would say something like you know , like a combination of three or four words that really helped the client and I was like how did you know to say that ? Like how did you even know that that would work ? You know how did you know ?

Speaker 1 8:33

And it's amazing that you are mentioning

Navigating Supervisory Development in Doctoral Programs

Speaker 1 8:35

that . You know it is a developmental process to supervise supervisors in our doctoral program . They usually feel like at the beginning of their practice they need to know everything and they need to be this expert to have answers to everything . And even I don't have answers to everything after doing this quite some time , and by no means I'm trying to say I'm at a different place than they are . I have been doing it sometime . That's the reason why I'm saying it's like there are . Sometimes I really need to go and consult with my colleagues and sometimes I need to actually acknowledge that . You know what ? In the session they said this and it dropped me in the wrong way .

Speaker 1 9:20

And I like ready to like bring out my clothes and everything , but again , like it's all those things you mentioned , it happens for supervisors too . And acknowledging that we are in our own journey , in our developmental process and there is no end to it , and that's another piece in the same line . Yeah , um of like being reflective , is that that's a good supervisor to me ?

Speaker 2 9:50

I know it's , it's scary , though , like I do , I will admit that , like you know , I don't know about you guys , but when you're , when you're a doc student , or maybe even in that first time supervising , like you almost feel . Like you almost feel like your relationship with the , with the supervisee , is not enough , right , like , like you , you know what . It's actually a parallel process , I think , in session , as I'm thinking about our students , our students who , starting practicum next semester , are seeing their first clients this week , yeah , and so they're like doing their intakes . You know , we go to break and then they come back , and we've been teaching these students for two years , right Before they see their first client , and we've been pouring into them like , hey , relationship is key , build a strong relationship .

Speaker 2 10:45

Hey , build a strong relationship . Hey , build a strong relationship . Hey , don't forget about the relationship . Offer genuineness , unkindness of high regard . And they get it . And then you go to that first session and you want to be the smartest person in the room because you you don't want something as flimsy as love . To like , hold the space you want , like , if I could just sit you on a 10 books and I can trust that I have all of the knowledge you need , then I'll be a good therapist .

Speaker 2 11:18

It's like you just and that's the same thing for supervision Like you get your first supervisee and you just don't want to be dumb , you know . You just don't want them to look at you like , well , I got the short end of the stick , you know what ?

Speaker 3 11:35

PhD . I don't believe you . I taught a multicultural class . Well , I teach multicultural every Tuesdays , right , and at the end of class yesterday , like I , the last student , left the room and it's like a little boardroom right , there's like I don't know eight students in the class . All the students left the room and man , I mean I was getting hit with all kinds of questions , right , and like I knew the answers to it , but I was a little like I mean , that's I'm just kind of making this up , but like it does come from somewhere , you know .

Speaker 2 12:08

So , man , I've read some stuff you know .

Speaker 3 12:11

So , man , the students left , and it was quiet and it was just me , and I just turned off my laptop and I I thought to myself whoo , you made it another day , another day not being found out , another day where you appear like you're the professor of record on this course . One of these days , though , they're going to find you out one of these days they're going to be like oh , oh he , he knows nothing , oh he oh where's , where's your parents , where's the department head ?

Speaker 1 12:50

I love that Because , like you know , I think we all have that Like , we all feel like imposters to a degree and none of us acknowledge it . We only acknowledge it to ourselves if we are reflective enough . Acknowledge it , we only acknowledge it to ourselves if we are reflective enough . But I , like you know , I believe that we all need to just embrace it Like there is nothing .

Speaker 1 13:13

And I remember in one of the conferences I attended , a session , they were talking about imposter syndrome , how to tackle with it , and , like you know , basically the conversation sounded like we need to get rid of it , yeah . And then I was like , why are we getting rid of it ? It is a beautiful thing to have , yeah , man , that keeps us going , that keeps us humble , hopefully , and it helps us to keep recognizing that we need to learn and keep growing . Because , like , if I don't have that mindset that I need to keep knowing things and oh my gosh , I'm really lack in this area and I know what I know and I know there are things I don't know I think that this is kind of problematic . I know , man , I know I don't know . I love that you are saying that because I'm right there with you 100% .

Speaker 2 14:02

Well , there's some students .

Speaker 3 14:03

Just real quick . There's some students who , in supervision they'll come in with this idea of I have to completely hide the idea of me being anything other than an expert Right or being anything other than a good counselor . So they they scour their like you know , clinical videos and they're like what can I show , what can I present in supervision ? That's going to make me appear like I kind of need some help , but also not too much of a horrible therapist .

Speaker 3 14:38

So they like try to find this middle ground of , like they can give me feedback on this , but I'm not showing them that shit , like the stuff that I did like 30 , 30 minutes prior to this video starting , was horrible .

Speaker 2 14:52

I'm not showing that , you know , but I'll , I'll give them this , you know , I'll give them this little bit but it's a , it's a cultural thing to me , right , like , and here's what I mean Like , like , if we as a faculty and this is where Gusha and I start talking for days- right , oh , yeah , like if , if , if , as a faculty you aren't reflective and and you do , you , you as a as a faculty unit no-transcript , and there's something in there to say about safety and vulnerability , and how do you structure a program to be able to navigate that and manage that and cultivate that , not just in class

Cultivating Healthy Faculty Cultures

Speaker 2 16:21

but in one-on-one sessions ? You know individual sessions and it's just hard , man , because I see students who come from other programs . It's almost like they come with like education hurt oh know where , like you know what I mean , like sometimes we'll get , because you know , k-crap . We accept about 12 credits .

Speaker 3 16:32

I don't know what you guys's programs do , but it's about 12 credits , you know jesus rinky dinky university probably accepts 24 before they uh we are a Research 1 institution . Thank you very much .

Speaker 2 16:49

Research is like a lowercase r1 . It's r1 with an asterisk We'll see .

Speaker 2 16:57

You know , sometimes G is the students who graduate and then move to Austin and so I supervise them . When they come to Austin , come here , let me help you . That's the first year , we'll see , we'll see . But anyway , yeah , you know , sometimes you get students who they come in and they have spelled 12 , you know 12 credits or 12 hours at another university . And man , they come in just like hurt man , just like kind of like a deer . You know like they're in class , just like looking man , just like kind of like a deer . You know like they're in class , just like looking around . You know like not talking .

Speaker 2 17:29

You know what I mean like not being vulnerable , you know , and um , yeah , there's just . I know not all programs are created equal , but damn like it just feels like let me just .

Speaker 3 17:42

Let me just jump in because it's very similar to my experience as a faculty member , because I know y'all have been at you guys' institutions for a while , right .

Speaker 2 17:54

Yeah , how long have you been at ODU ?

Speaker 1 17:57

Ten years now .

Speaker 2 17:58

Ten years . Yeah , I'm about six , starting my seventh , I am .

Speaker 3 18:04

About six starting my seventh . I am four months into being at the University of .

Speaker 1 18:12

Louisiana Jesus can't keep a job . He can't , he can't keep a job .

Speaker 2 18:16

Our jobs can't keep him . Let's say that Maybe that's it . That might be just an expression . He's the problem . He's the problem . He's the problem .

Speaker 3 18:25

He's the problem After the third institution .

Speaker 2 18:27

It's like maybe .

Speaker 3 18:28

I need to look in the mirror and maybe it is .

Speaker 2 18:31

You know , all of those universities are still standing . There's only one person .

Speaker 1 18:37

But I know you are trying to say something . Julius , you see how Jude gets in the way Jude's point is very important , like you know the culture piece like this prevalent culture across these institutions and we can talk about that hours and like you , know how those culture is rested on certain values , that is not serving .

Speaker 3 18:59

That's what I'm getting at .

Speaker 1 19:00

Neither student population nor faculty population .

Speaker 3 19:04

That's what I'm getting at . Neither student population nor faculty . All right , fine , it's okay , that's what I'm getting at , because I am somebody who I need if the culture is unhealthy , I just can't stay there Like I can't stand it .

Speaker 2 19:15

That's why he has been kind of job hopping Because . I think , julius , for you you're like man . My sense of self and my self and and my values will not budge Like I will find a university that aligns with my teaching .

Speaker 3 19:30

Yeah , and I , and I feel like you know , university of Louisiana is the first and only university where I've landed here and it's like , oh , okay , like this aligns with . This aligns with not only who I am as a professor , but like it aligns with who I am as a father and a husband . And you know the , you know it's , you know seven minutes away from my house , you know it's it's just you know it's , my kids were running around the halls the other day , you know , just , it's just .

Speaker 3 20:03

It's a really good feeling , you know . But I've gone through a lot of unhealthy faculty and staff situations , so I'm I'm curious what do y'all think are like the fundamental pieces to creating like a healthy faculty , a healthy culture what makes a good , what makes a good program ?

Speaker 2 20:23

dream what makes a good program ? Dreamless . Money doesn't matter . University's on board . You got everything you need . You don't have to go begging to your dean for faculty lives .

Speaker 3 20:34

Please can we just get some post-it notes . Please can we just get some ?

Speaker 1 20:40

On-campus clinic . Yes , definitely , definitely make . Yes , definitely , definitely . I mean , like you know I think the the first what you said , jude the culture like faculty being respectful of each other and building certain criteria together and like having a reasonable basis for different criteria .

Community Connection in Faculty Development

Speaker 1 21:01

Yeah , like I'm going to talk about the faculty promotion and all those pieces . Like you know , what are we talking it ? What are we looking at ? Why are we looking at those things ?

Speaker 2 21:10

reasonable .

Speaker 1 21:11

That's the key word here , yep reasonable in a sense that it serves each person with within their own trajectory . And like trying to put everybody on the same standard . We are not all coming from similar backgrounds and like when I say backgrounds , we can talk about a wide range of backgrounds and we did not have the same experiences . Like some of us is a lot more privileged than the other people to be cultured into academic excellence .

Speaker 3 21:47

I'm using air quotes because that is usually in all institutions' websites right , yeah , yeah , yeah .

Speaker 1 21:54

So like how we are actually redefining some of those pieces and making sure that people still do what they want to do and keep making impact , and impact can look differently in my opinion . Yeah , I love that .

Speaker 2 22:08

I love that , but that takes a whole university that to to kind of commit to what we're trying to do . You know , and not like when I say we , I mean we as a counseling program , because I do think that there's a tension between between , maybe like administration or yeah , I'll just say administration on the whole , you know , and maybe this full understanding of what it means to train counselors and just how different of a training or educational experience it is compared to training architects , right ?

Speaker 3 22:48

You know , to training even artists .

Speaker 2 22:51

You know what I mean . It's just different , like there's layers to it and it's just . You know what I mean and you can't explain it to them .

Speaker 1 23:03

Yeah , you know , know what I mean . Um , and you , you can't explain it to them . Yeah , you know . You even make me think , like you know , at the administrative level , there should be more effort to be inclusive , this discipline wise , so that , like you , have somebody who is representing your unit in the administrative level .

Speaker 1 23:22

Let's just speak for college . They know what you are doing , but they also need to be working with the department or the program who they are representing . But we can go back and say that is it possible to create that cohesion within your own faculty , that cohesion within your own faculty ? And it's actually that's where we may have most influence and um control over even that is challenging but , like going back to your question , what makes a like cohesive place ?

Speaker 1 24:00

like ? I wish we did not have a lot of administrative stuff to do , so that we would be more familiar with each other's work and we knew each other more , both personally and professionally , and have more collaboration on how to structure things , because it is so easy to work in our own silos without as a unit . But again , I'm going to go back and put it on the systems . I don't want to put it on the individuals , because systems dictate certain things and this is a systemic issue than individual issue yeah um well , one thing that would make it a good well to your .

Speaker 1 24:47

To your point like the .

Speaker 3 24:49

The thing that I appreciate the most about the faculty that I'm with now is the system that we live within , like the system that our program chair has built , because this is our one and only program chair .

Speaker 3 25:01

Like , he's been the program chair for you know 20 something years .

Speaker 3 25:05

He built the , he built the program at the university , and so there's like , yes , there is this unique balance of , like , you know , we're going to supervise and we're going to research and we're going to , you know , help manage the clinic and we're going to teach , but also we're going to have like a halloween party , um , at a particular professor's house , like their personal house , right when , like you know , alumni is going to come and gather at this house .

Speaker 3 25:33

At this party , there's going to be like a , you know , a luncheon or a brunch at another faculty's house where , like , the graduating students are going to come and we're going to talk about , yes , we're going to eat and we're going to drink , and we're going to talk about , yes , we're going to eat and we're going to drink and we're going to laugh , but we're also going to talk about . This is how you get ready for like , a licensure in the state . You know , there's like a there's a holiday end of semester gumbo potluck at like the department heads house where we all bring our like , our partners and our dogs and our kids and we all hang out .

Speaker 3 26:07

That system allows us to manage the tension of disagreements in faculty meetings or when we're misaligned when it comes to the direction of a course or the direction of a particular student . You know , like those type that connection allows us to withstand that tension that exists in like you know almost everybody's faculty .

Speaker 1 26:34

Isn't it bringing us back to like being human and having relationships first so that we can actually do the hard work , like the parallel process you were talking about ?

Speaker 1 26:44

Jude is like everywhere , like you know , unless I have good modeling to my students how to be human with my faculty , with my students , and be able to hold the space when difficult discussions and conversations happen um address them directly without actually going to other places before I try to resolve some of those challenges , what we are talking about are actually , in every level of what we are doing , the relationship and being able to be appropriately vulnerable with each other and holding the space and remembering that we are all human beings and that peace is important to support each other . And like holding the space and remembering that we are all human beings and that that peace is important to support each other , because we thought that we are doing . We are building a house . Actually this was a metaphor and I really liked in one of my students dissertations we are building a house , but all the nails are like problematic , like you know yeah , or they are not there .

Speaker 2 27:51

They're not , they don't have doors yeah house is bound to collapse .

Speaker 2 27:56

They're made out of rubber . Yeah , I mean , that's true , man , and you feel it . Students feel that . You know like . Students are like kids in the sense that they know something is up . They may not feel the power that they can say it , but they know something is up and they're most likely responding to it . You know like and you can . You can see it in their work . You can see it in the community's relationship to the students . You know like . That's one of the things like .

Speaker 2 28:29

I think one of the things that I like about our program that I think makes a program really good is having this connection to the community , like you know who you're training your students to work with . You know like either whether that's clinicians or clients . You know like understanding the clientele that you're training your students for , so that your program becomes maybe a little bit more what's the right way to put it ? Your program becomes a little bit more like a community counseling program , you know , and not like a counseling program at large , but like we're training our students to work in the communities around us .

Speaker 3 29:17

Yeah , the program becomes a fixture of the community it lives within . The program becomes a fixture of the community .

Speaker 2 29:24

It lives within Exactly and it's intertwined into it , you know , and not just in like a superficial way , like we have relationships with clinics in the area , but like the faculty is in and amongst the people .

Speaker 2 29:40

You know we're not like on this in this ivory tower . You know like tenured excellence and you only come to us whenever you want knowledge . You know like now we're in the streets and we're talking to people , then we're , you know , at the houses of the homeless cookouts and we're all . You know what I mean and I know not every program can be that way , but there's this like intentionality that I think where there's a connection this town and gown connection .

Speaker 3 30:14

Yeah , you know what I mean . That's where you like I don't , I don't , I don't know if we want to go down this tangent and I know I gotta , I gotta jump off anyway , but that I worked at an online university for years and I'm you know the university was great and the program was great , but like that's one thing that I missed from like the difference between like a brick and mortar on the ground type of program and an online program is that hey man , there's an open house at tree of Life Counseling Center here in the community and it's an open house . So we need like a faculty member or two to like just show up to be a representative for the program . Some of our students work at Tree of Life and some of our students would love to see us there . You know and like , see us support that , and the community wants to see the university and the program kind of support what's going on in it . You know and like see us support that and the community wants to see the university and the program kind of support what's going on in it .

Speaker 3 31:05

You know , like an online program , you don't really get that community-based , participatory type of relationship building . You know it's not , it's not , it's just it's not bad , it just is what it is . And there's some programs who are embedded within the community that just like don't show up , for you know the clinics that their students are housed in for practicum and internship , you know they just like they're this like external . You know site that the program doesn't touch , you know it . I think it's like super important for university faculty to like show up to the ribbon cutting ceremonies at a clinic or to show up to like the school board meetings , because we have a graduate student who's in a dual track of clinical mental health and school counseling , who's doing some like social advocacy . You know like to show up to those things for students .

Speaker 2 32:01

You know , I wanted to feel . I wanted to feel like if our program didn't exist , this community would really be up a Creek . That's how I want it .

Speaker 3 32:13

I wanted to feel like I think you love the self-importance that you feel . You see what I have to deal with . You love a little pat on the back . You want to be .

Speaker 2 32:24

You want to be don't you have a meeting to go to you ?

Speaker 1 32:27

are definitely brothers . I love that .

Speaker 2 32:30

You want to be needed . I think you spilled some grapes all over your jacket , by the way .

Speaker 3 32:37

Let's unpack that . You want to be needed . Leave us alone . Gosh , leave , go Bye . Okay , all right . All pack that you . You want to be needed , leave us alone , okay , all right . All right , I gotta jump because I gotta go interview somebody else , but , man , you should . This has not , this has not to be the light like we have to do this again yeah , we're gonna yeah y'all , yeah , yeah y'all keep talking , i'll'll jump off , definitely Just let me know .

Speaker 2 32:59

Thank you uh , no , okay , so I , I like that , that idea right of like , like a . I want , I want a program to be so influential in the communities that they're in that if the program was gone , the universe , I mean the community would struggle , you know , they would feel it you know , I mean that's a perfect , perfect way of like thinking , really like that shows how much of an impact you are making and , like you know , that makes we try yeah , we try , and we try to train our students to do the same thing .

Speaker 2 34:33

You know what I mean , um , but you know , man , we so , we've , we've sat in each other's offices crying about students . Yes , we did , we've , we did we've , like , man , how long and I know we've talked about this before but like , how , um , how do you orientate yourself towards training a student ? Right , and that's a complicated question . But like , are you , are you thinking I am training a technician ? Are you thinking I am training a clinician ? Are you thinking I'm training a researcher ? Because you guys have master students and doc students and I know that like shifts , you know , but like what do you ?

Speaker 2 35:29

what are you focused on ?

Speaker 1 35:31

I guess the technical terminology and I'm going to use both of them . That are two ways of saying it . Um , and I believe in both . Like you know they , they call it scientist , practitioner and also practitioner scientist scientist yeah , um , it is a lot more complex than just think .

Speaker 1 35:51

One aspect , because the type of work we do or our profession , particularly at the doctoral level , when you work with doctoral students , lots of different hats come into the picture .

Embracing Nuance in Student Development

Speaker 1 36:04

And kind of going back to what we have been talking about , like I was going to say I'm going to tie it to what we were talking about right before Julius left . Students might look like they don't have lots of say in these cultures or communities . I just don't agree with that piece because they do have a lot of say Because , like you know , they are a very critical stakeholder . Just like you said , remove students . We don't mean anything if you ask me yeah , man , yeah , just like you said , remove students .

Speaker 1 36:42

We don't mean anything if you ask me yeah , man , yeah , like we are in an education , um educational setting without students , like research is just dry and like that's my opinion , again , like you , know as a counselor , educator .

Speaker 1 36:59

So , like going back to your question , I believe in coming from all angles . Like you know , whatever I'm working with them , if I'm teaching , for example , doctoral level research class but it is not just research we are talking about over here . Like you know , I need to tap into their clinical mindset . I need to tap into their , like , teaching mindset . I need to tap into their clinical mindset . I need to tap into their teaching mindset . I need to tap into their advocate mindset so that they can think about what they are conceptualizing from different angles , because what we do is a lot more complex than these . Are the relationships between these two variables , or , like , when you put these together . This leads to this . Those are important to know too . I just believe that what we do is a lot more nuanced than that I agree , man .

Speaker 2 37:55

Yeah , it's . It's interesting because I think you and I both teach the research classes . You teach a research class , I teach their research classes .

Speaker 3 38:00

You teach a research class .

Speaker 2 38:01

I teach a research class and I feel like whenever I'm teaching it , I'm trying to , I'm trying to turn the students into nerds .

Speaker 1 38:12

And you're doing it at the master's level , right At the master's level , which is very critical . Yeah , I love it .

Speaker 2 38:17

It's super critical Because they come in so scared of research and I know my students are listening to the podcast , probably they're going to listen to this episode and I'm teaching them research in the summer . I just finished teaching them theories . I won't have them next semester Because the way that we set up our program is I teach them every other semester , and we do that intentionally . We have faculty teach them every semester , unfortunately , you know , we have faculty , he teach them every semester , and then we have some faculty who their teaching style better suits a student whenever they get to the second year of the program , and so they teach him for the second year and so I get to teach him in their first class .

Speaker 2 38:58

And then I get to teach them every other semester until they get to their last class , you know , but when I'm teaching the research class , I am trying to turn them into nerds , trying to get them to tap into why we're doing this research . And even if you don't do research but you consume it , and you consume it for your clients , then you need to understand what's good , what's bad research you know , what's poor research ?

Speaker 2 39:22

I guess is probably a better way to put it . But there are layers to like what you're trying to touch in a student's lived experience throughout the program in each class you know , I don't know , and I don't know if you experience this as well . I feel like sometimes students just want you to just teach them , especially the scared students you know , they just just give me the information . You know , like I don't want you to touch my soul , I don't want you to change my mind if you're talking about research .

Speaker 1 39:59

research cannot be taught that way . I know , In my experience at least . I will give you all the knowledge I have , and still .

Speaker 2 40:09

I know , but I think no class can be taught that way . Definitely not . You know what I mean .

Speaker 1 40:18

No , you and I are on the same page . You know that , yep .

Speaker 2 40:21

Yep , yep , but do you feel like ? Students like the students who come in and they submit to that process , I feel like have a better chance of like not just learning the information , but like integrating it into , like how they exist yep , definitely , because , like I , it is interesting coming from turkey , obviously , um , having my master's degree over here and coming to the us .

Speaker 1 40:53

My master's degree was a lot more research focused . So I , when I came to the states to pursue my phd , I was already a researcher . So , like , I already did several different research studies and I had an understanding of how to conceptualize research , which evolved over the years . But the piece is , I wasn't as scared of research as my peers were , or I wasn't as hate research as they did .

Speaker 2 41:22

Yeah , I feel like I'm trying to seduce them into loving research sometimes I love to say demystify research , because I think , what really ?

Speaker 1 41:32

happens . Since our master's programs are more clinically focused programs , research is very much at the back burner and sometimes we also don't do a good job . In my opinion , again , different programs does different work and , like I'm pretty sure there are programs , they are doing a wonderful job . But I frequently question how much we are able to help them understand what they do in a counseling room is not really free from what they do in research . Yes , I use the word conceptualizing research . We conceptualize clients .

Speaker 2 42:11

Gosh .

Speaker 1 42:12

Same mentality , like it is . Like you know , we focus on different information , we put those information together and we have a treatment plan . We do exactly the same thing in research and I usually like to make those connections . That doesn't eliminate the challenge of learning the research language or eliminate the challenge of understanding different designs and how each design has its own processes and mindsets , but normalizing those pieces like you were talking about , like normalizing , it's okay , because very frequently we think about numbers and , like you know , the majority of us don't like numbers .

Speaker 2 42:54

hence , we are drawn to social sciences I know , man , it's the , it's the right and wrong of it you know that I feel like we're in every other place , like in the counseling training experience . There's like gray area and I think students see research and think that it's black and white which is really it's just not man . No , no , no . Okay , so I have another question how long do you think you can keep doing this ?

Speaker 1 43:27

Being a faculty .

Speaker 2 43:29

And this is what I mean . This is what I mean right , because , like we've , we all of who we are , it's like in the training experience you know what I mean . We don't put a PowerPoint up and just read from the PowerPoint . It's like you know you're , you're trying to like . When students graduate , I think they would equally say that they know who we are . There's an emotional investment . There's an emotional investment . There's an emotional investment yeah . And some students , some whole cohorts are harder to attach to than others , you know , you know and you know , it's that .

Speaker 1 44:30

it's that like friction between and being able to to do it and but then watch them grow . It's just a lot , yep , you know , I don't know .

Speaker 2 44:34

I don't want you to put a number on it yeah , like don't put a number on it , but but do you feel like like there's some days I wake up and I go I can do this forever . And there's some days I wake up and I'm like I'm going to put a PowerPoint up and you know what I'm going to do . I'm going to have each student take a chapter . I'm gonna split them up into groups .

Speaker 2 45:05

I'm gonna take a chapter and talk about it and I'm just gonna sit and I'm gonna grade you on presentations . You know what I mean , because there's some faculty who do that , you know , and it's that they don't teach , they just show up and you know whose group is doing chapter 13 a day . You know , yeah , and you know whose group is doing chapter 13 a day .

Speaker 1 45:25

You know , um , yeah , and you know , what you're describing is like you know , very much like being again human and yeah being a professional and there are so many different things that we are doing and you are specifically focusing on teaching part in a faculty's life and so after graduating from the doc program , some of my um colleagues now take faculty positions and then come back to me in a few years and they're like I had no idea . I had no idea you all were doing these and I'm like yeah mm-hmm yeah .

Speaker 2 46:03

Do you ever lay it out for your students ?

Speaker 1 46:05

I mean , I try to give them as much access as possible so that they would understand , and , at the same time , finding that balance like you know how much is too much to share , because that's benefiting me , that I'm getting it out of my chest , and sometimes it doesn't make sense Because , like , particularly doctoral students are in this unique position of like one foot in as a faculty and one foot is in the student side and they do lots of different things we are doing and I sometimes say and by no means I'm trying to be um minimizing without the responsibility , like you know , yeah , and like deadlines are pretty much set for them and , like you know , they have the work

Balancing Faculty Responsibilities and Personal Boundaries

Speaker 1 46:54

they are doing . Then , becoming a faculty , now you have all these responsibility . You need to teach , you need to do research , you need to do service . Depends on your position .

Speaker 1 47:04

There's so much happening service at the university level , service at the regional level , national level , international level , it is , it can be a lot . But if we were to focus on teaching , I frequently think and every year I'm like next year , year , I'm going to look at this and I'm going to improve this part , and then that year comes and so much is happening and I do a little bit change , tweaks and other stuff . Still , it is working out well . I wish I had more time . That's what I'm trying to say .

Speaker 1 47:40

I wish I had more time to be able to put effort into my teaching .

Speaker 2 47:44

I know , right , it feels like each semester I'm doing the best that I can and making some transitions . But , like you said , I did I and man I overshared in class , I think maybe like two or three weeks ago . You know students , you know they asked , they were like you know what all do you do ? You know , and I wasn't even really thinking about it , you know I was like , oh yeah . So , like you know , this is what we do and I kind of broke it down into the areas like you talked about . You know teaching , scholarship , you know service , administrative stuff , and then you know all of the other stuff that we do and I wasn't really thinking about it . You know , like I was just kind of talking and sharing and I think I even got on the board and like wrote down , like I know , I know I did , I broke it down and I was like and it was , I wasn't even I mean it was , it was , it was a mixture of like pity .

Speaker 1 48:58

Some of them were impressed .

Speaker 2 48:59

Some of them were like some of them were like oh my God , how do you sleep ? You know , I , and . But I think one of the things that like made me feel like shame I guess it's like is is I saw them communicate he's unavailable , you know . You know , what I mean . And even though I am you know , it's kind of like oversharing in session sometimes . It makes your clients go like oh well , I'm not going to tell you about my stuff .

Speaker 2 49:38

You know , yeah , it's heartbreaking , it is , and that heartbreaking it is , and that is the other thing .

Speaker 1 49:46

I'm glad you are mentioning this . I think , in different time frames , in different environments , we all do this , yeah , and it depends on where we do , which student level we do , in which context we do . It might actually yield different , different reactions , but it ties back to , don't you think that it really ties back to that culture piece . Like you know , somehow there's so much going on that we do so much to demonstrate that excellence or productivity or whatever it is that , um , there's not enough time in a day to like take a little bit of a break and like breathe . And I sometimes feel like if the days were 48 hours , we would again , like you know , sleep , let's say , 16 of that hours , but we would still work . Um , yeah , because work is there and there's so much going on and it's somehow I don't know if it is um , it is more related to moving , progressing in our professional trajectories , but somehow too much is happening and it keeps growing . It just doesn't slow down . I don't know what is that about .

Speaker 2 51:13

I know , I don't know , it's like a rash or something , it just keeps like the to-do list . But the students , you know , and I think , like the you know , it's almost like just you know . But the students , you know , and I , and I think , like the you know , it's almost like um , you know .

Speaker 1 51:27

I mean , I think our kids are about the same age , right like uh mine is a little younger than yours , but your little one is younger than mine , I think yeah , I think valence three I want to say , but then , yeah , you know we have charlotte who's ?

Speaker 2 51:42

one , but uh , yeah , but but , we're two , okay , yeah .

Speaker 2 51:47

So there's that like . There's that feeling like when you , you know your kid wants something and they come up to you and they're asking but you're busy , you know , and you have to , you have to kind of , you can't be available a hundred percent of the time . You know what I mean , and so you do have to disappoint them . You know , like , and because you need you , you gotta , you know , do this thing , or take this call or answer this email or do something . You know . And the look on their face , you know , when you're like , just give me a second . You know . And the look on their face , you know , when you're like , just give me a second . You know .

Speaker 2 52:25

That's the feeling you know you get and you , you want , you want students to . I think what I really want is for them to know that this is what I really want to be doing is sitting in an office with them on a whiteboard talking about theories . You know what I mean and and I want them to want to be invested enough to want that you know . And I want to also model for them how this is part of growing up professionally . You know they will have to say no to clients because they just don't have the space of the time you know what I mean .

Speaker 2 53:10

And so you , there's some shame and some guilt in this training experience that and I'm gonna bring it back for a circle that I don't think other programs feel in the same way that we do you ?

Speaker 1 53:27

are making a great point . Yeah , you are also like talking about your personal experience of like all these processes , and it is not that cut and dry for us as counselor educators that you know I don't have time . I know you're going through a rough time right now yeah , but it's five o'clock , I don't have time . Sorry , I need to I need to actually , or it is not my job to focus on your personal stuff , like you know it's not within the realm of our , our work .

Speaker 1 53:58

That's the gray area you were talking about . That's like personal and professional to a degree intertwined in what we are doing . And I'm not saying there are no boundaries . Boundaries are there and I think we and they're important . Yes and very important and , at the same time , we also want to attend to those personal processes , because they are part of what we are doing and we cannot ignore that piece .

Speaker 1 54:29

Yeah , definitely , and I think , also like it is necessary for our students to know that many of us majority of us are in this for very similar reasons , that they are in this Like we have that common passion to make an impact or help others . It might look differently in different settings , in different situations . What we do , Like you said you , you in your office , and over the years , what I stopped doing is to be in my office because I I like to keep my door open when the door is open yeah , come on in I prioritize talking to my students over the emails or what I need to get done at a certain time frame .

Speaker 1 55:18

so instead I started to actually schedule meetings and , like you know , a majority of my students know they can shoot me an email and we will schedule a meeting and this meeting they will get my undivided attention . Yes , but in my position I'm able to do it At this point . I wouldn't be able to do as much . Last year around this time . Your position is different . Last year around this time , your position is different and it's like you know , you have a upper admin responsibility which is consuming , I assume yeah , it's so consuming .

Speaker 2 55:50

Yeah , it really is yeah in a different in a different way than you know , I expected yep , you know what I mean and uh , and I think that's the , that's the . Where it comes from is that you just feel pulled away from them . You know Um and um and this is like I mean we're , we're , we're growing counselors , we're not making them , you know , like we're growing them , and so you gotta like , tend the fields you know , and so anyway , all right , I know it's been an hour , man .

Speaker 1 56:28

I know we got it .

Speaker 2 56:30

I know we got it , I think we got to have you back on again because I really want to know maybe , even maybe , next time we talk we can talk about like the doc program and you know , know how to how to become a good faculty member . Um , I know we shared a lot about our experience , but um any closing thoughts or words for the listeners . Most of our listeners are graduate students , counselors out in the field or doc students . Anything you feel like you just want to share with them .

Speaker 1 56:59

I mean , it's just like we we all are here to support each other . I think we really need to remember that piece . Like faculty you mentioned ivory tower .

Speaker 1 57:10

It is so easy to put faculty on pedestal and look up to faculty . I mean , respecting each other is the basics of what we are doing , but we are all human beings too and we have off days too , just like you described , and some days we also don't want to do things and we might have a lot going on on our plates . And at the same time , I think , as long as we keep each other in mind and keep supporting each other and giving the benefit of doubt when things did not go the way we had hoped , I think that's what we can do as a community , and I'm all about building those communities and creating a space where we all can support each other with our strengths , because I think our students bring such a wonderful energy that sometimes what we have just described , while that sucks out , sucks the energy out of us . Our students actually fill in us with that energy and I I think that's what keep us going yeah , I love that .

Speaker 2 58:19

All right . Well , hey , thanks for . Hey , thanks for listening Thank you , kevin , of course , man , we're going to have you here again .

Speaker 1 58:25

I will be glad to .

Speaker 2 58:26

Okay . Well , we'll see y'all next time .

Speaker 1 58:29

Okay , see you next time . That's it , man . Thank you too . Okay , take care .

Speaker 2 58:32

I think you can just leave . I think there's like a little section up there .