The Twin Therapists Podcast
Drs. Jude and Julius Austin, identical twin brothers, lift the curtain on the "doing" of psychotherapy. With unwavering honesty, raw vulnerability, and unwavering compassion for the complexities of the human condition, they illuminate the path for both fledgling clinicians and seasoned professionals alike. The Twin Therapists podcast is your gateway to a world where healing meets humanity, leaving no stone unturned in the relentless pursuit of understanding the depths of the human soul.
The Twin Therapists Podcast
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Twin therapists Jude and Julius Austin share a candid, humor-filled conversation about finding peace, love, and self-care in the counseling profession while staying true to your authentic self.
• Peace in counseling isn't about perfection but creating structures that allow for freedom and authenticity
• Jude finds peace through session structure while Julius finds it through permission to be real
• Treating counseling as your "second relationship" helps maintain realistic expectations
• Differentiation from the profession is essential – get value and purpose from multiple life areas
• Self-care evolves developmentally throughout your career beyond basic "drink water" advice
• Client expectations have changed – today's clients want authentic therapists, not just techniques
• Taking care of yourself includes charging what you're worth and setting appropriate boundaries
• The real relationship with clients requires being your true self, not a sanitized professional facade
• Creating contracts with fellow professionals to genuinely care for each other throughout careers
• Finding a balance between structure and authenticity allows for deeper therapeutic connections
Come see us at ACA 2026 where we'll be presenting and signing our books. Look for our upcoming book "The Business of Counseling" – the business class we wish we had in graduate school!
If you have any questions about any counseling related topics or would like the twins to share their thoughts about a particular counseling case - reach out with the info below:
https://thetwintherapists.com/
Instagram: thetwintherapists
Contact: thetwintherapists@gmail.com
Welcome and Introduction
Speaker 1I got some Tony Sashies in my eyes , my accents . I've been hearing yeah , he's been away , he's been away , he's been away . I've been in Texas for a long time man , I feel like I came here and instantly smelled root . Yeah , it's in your chest . What is that ?
Speaker 2Oh yeah .
Speaker 1Well , hey look , we're excited to be here . We got you guys for about an hour and a half An hour and a half 20 minutes or something , and so we're going to have some fun , we have 122 slides and we're just going to be reading straight from the PowerPoint .
Speaker 2Actually , we got AI to record the lecture , so we'll see you guys later .
Speaker 1We actually got some stuff to do . Let's see . Let's start with some thank yous , man .
Speaker 2Let's start with some thank yous .
Speaker 1Let's do that . So I just want to thank LCA for inviting us , particularly Vicky , who you know , saw us . I think we were at a book signing at ACA in New Orleans and she came up to us and asked us to do it . So we've been planning for this for a long time and so we're excited about that . Who to do it ? So we've been planning for this for a long time , so we're excited about that .
Speaker 2Who else ? When you say a long time , you mean like we did this last night we got together last night .
Speaker 1I'll tell you guys a little bit more about that later . Who else ? Oh , our beautiful , lovely wives , precious , precious wives .
Speaker 1Taking care of the kids while we're here , pray for them , send them good thoughts and prayers . A moment of silence for the best While we're on vacation . This is vacation Because , you know , when I get home , I kind of feel like I'm that high , I'm really sick of it and I think that is it as far as thank yous , let's talk about style . So we won't have a powerpoint ? Uh , we won't . So , uh , it's gonna be . I don't know if you guys listen to our podcast , the twin therapist podcast . Uh , we are gonna try to give you guys something like that . We know that you guys have probably been in presentations for the past couple days right 17 18 hours , 17 18 hours and so we want to try to .
Speaker 1We want to try to give you an experience that feels more like a conversation , and we're still . We're just . I mean just , I'm curious how we made it . We're just two kuyas for Scott and I can't believe we're doing this , and so we I'm excited to be here with you guys a chance to maybe experience some of the conversations that we have on the car rides and on Tuesday nights after class and things like that . Anything else on style .
Speaker 2Yeah , this is so we essentially . We had the structure for this , and then I went off into my home and I created what I wanted to say , and I have no idea what Jude was going to say here . So that's how we did it . Yeah , I have no idea what Jude is going to say here . That's how we did it . Yeah , I have no idea what he's going to say , so we're just going to kind of play it by ear .
Speaker 1Yeah . So here's the structure . We broke it up into four 30-minute blocks . Since we only have an hour and a half , we're going to squeeze it into three 30-minute blocks . We're going to cover peace in the first 30 minutes and then we're going to cover love in the next 30 minutes and then counselors up there in the last 30 minutes . The way we set it up was I have in each section . This is ridiculous . Go ahead . You should see my diagram .
Speaker 2He doesn't like diagrams this man sent me a graphic of what this . It's ridiculous when we look , when we write books .
Speaker 1He just wants to know which chapter is right .
Speaker 2That's it I organize it on the next .
Speaker 1Let the big dog lose . That's all I need . So we got 30 minute blocks . What we organized was I have an idea or like a concept that I want you guys to kind of integrate or know , and then I have some points out of it . I don't know what he has , so I'll just apologize . I got some stuff and so it's going to be kind of we want to kind of have a conversation where we're kind of talking with each other and sharing things that we you good , you got it out your system .
Speaker 2Yes , you guys feel prepared , squared away , fine . Do you guys need the graphic ? Did anybody get the handout ?
Speaker 1Fine , I think that's it . If you want the graph , holla at your boy , jesus , all right , all right . Excel spreadsheet All right , all right , okay , okay , let's see Anything else . Structure Organization let's do it . All right . Peace , all
Peace: Finding Structure in Therapy
Speaker 1right . So when we heard the topic of this , or at least when I heard the topic , sure , sure , I think Jesus and I I will speak for myself I guess I had this image of peace as , like this therapist that's just floating into session , just so peaceful and in line with themselves that they're just there's a wind blowing in their office .
Speaker 2Just oneness .
Speaker 1Oneness with the therapeutic process . They have a scarf , for whatever reason . See it like it's the Matrix . There's scented candles . They just smell like tween . That's what I thought . Yeah , you know the tween , we get one . Y'all didn't get one at graduate . The elbow vagin tweet , jack no . And the more I thought about it , the more I say you know , I don't really feel at peace when I'm like that , like when I have to be like that , and I think it's because when I think of peace in session , the things that give me peace is organization , obviously .
Speaker 2Now listen . It took 20 minutes , I know that's not safe .
Speaker 1I know that's not provocative , but let me tell you what I mean . The more structure I have for the process , the more peace I am in session . The more peace I am in session , right , the more peace I am in session . Here's the structure that I think .
Speaker 2Do you got anything to add before I kind of yeah , just keep it brief , because you're about to jump into structure and I know how you get all hot and bothered and Licky's stretching . The hamstrings are tight . Come on , man .
Speaker 1Dig it a little . Okay , quickly , you know , because I wanted to make this practical as well as conversational , and so here's how I structure it right , I need to go in the session and I need to have an idea on my mind that I'm breaking up the work into three phases . Right , diane Gayhart writes about this . You have the crisis phase , and then the second phase is the working phase , and then the last phase is the termination phase , and usually the crisis phase is the first order challenge stuff , where you're just doing coping skills for the client , and that usually will take me about 30 minutes in the first session , you know , because I want to get them out of that crisis phase , and then I want to move them into that second phase , which is the working phase , where we're doing second-order change , deeper relational work , where I'm imposing the theoretical concepts that I have , and I'm trying to pick those concepts , because I only have one . I'm theoretically pure but technically eclectic , so philosophically pure , so I practice one theory , but I do it with a lot of different techniques , and so I'm in the pools of that and I'm trying to give an interpretation . And so in my mind I usually tell clients look , you need six sessions . So that's three phases , two sessions of phase , or one session for the first , three for the second , and then I can't do math .
Speaker 1I went to Canberra High School . I was around there , but that structure allows me to go into session and feel like , all right , I can kind of do anything I want . It actually makes me feel less anxious about trying to make something happen . All I'm trying to do is move the client through the process . You know what did you think ? I know you're going to probably say the opposite .
Speaker 2Oh yeah , Just portray .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , yeah yeah yeah , I know those underdogs . I need chaos , baby , I need . I want my . When I feel the most peace is when I walk into my house , like the house that I live , my personal space , and it's filled with like crayons on the floor for my kids . I got three kids and one on the way . I need like the scent of old diaper in the house . I need the aroma . What is that ? I want a question . Does somebody spill milk ? Yeah , if that spilled milk , what is the hell is that ?
Speaker 1Chocolate . Is it chocolate ? It needs to be chocolate chocolate .
Speaker 2I don't think that's chocolate . We've all been there . I need , like I , if I need to feel like my space , like the , the space , the physical space that I'm in , I need to feel like the relationship that I'm in is very reflective of who I am , and I'm not saying that like I'm a chaotic person , but like I'm real , you know , and like I don't . I like to walk into my house and feel like it's actually lived in , like it's not prepared for someone to visit , you know . So , like in the case I know I know it touched some of y'all in here all right , I'm gonna just prepare this house . And you're on the cycle where you're like all right , this person just left , who ? All right , open the cabinets and let all the junk you know it's bad .
Speaker 1Start cleaning up and the kids go who's coming ? Who's coming if you don't go ?
Speaker 2outside . No , I'm just cleaning up because it's dirty in here who's coming , we can clean up for no reason yeah , your uncle's coming , he's coming , he's coming .
Speaker 2I am the most at peace when I feel like the space that I'm in is very reflective of who I am Right . The relationship that I'm in is very reflective of who I am , of who I am right . The relationship that I'm in is reflective of who I am . I feel the most turmoil , the most fear when I feel like I'm hiding something , like I'm in my house and like the walls are too clean or it's too . You know , if you're a parent in here , like you know that feeling that you get in your soul when it's too quiet in the damn house like where is everybody ?
Speaker 2hey , what is happening ? You get that eerie feeling . I don't . I don't like that . So for me , in a relationship , especially with regards to like peace , it has to be very reflective of the realness of who I am as a human . To go into a relationship for me as this like caricature of what a clinician is , it seems for lack of a better word dirty to me .
Speaker 1It feels incongruent .
Speaker 2It feels incongruent , but I like dirty though .
Speaker 1It's the incongruency that makes you feel dirty .
Speaker 2It's the dirtiness .
Speaker 1But you know what man Like , seriously it's . I can be chaotic when I have to struggle . See , that's where we differ , yeah , and I seriously I feel like I can let myself , I can let myself play , and it almost feels like therapy is like double dutch . You know , like I'm feeling like , okay , you know , we have 30 minutes in session because I use my watch like it's a tool in session and so I'll go , okay , we got 30 minutes . I need to get the client here , right , and we'll talk about that .
Speaker 1I'm trying to get the client through the feelings , right Through the content , through the process , and I'm working them down and I go okay , we got 30 minutes where we can just play . And then that structure gives me the peace . I'm not at peace whenever I'm losing track of , when I don't feel this sense of spaciousness in session , when I haven't created that sense of spaciousness like you've ever had , that session where you're like I feel like we have all the time we need and you're not just saying that because it's like the cute thing to say with the client . You know , because you know some clients you don't have all the time . You really wish you had a week like lock the door and sit here for a week , but and I think that's what I'm trying to create , you know , which allows me to you know . But I think the second point , which I think kind of you know feeds into the first point , is I wrote the deeper I go , the less choice I have and the freer I feel .
Speaker 2Okay , so explain that to the people , and I think that's what I mean . I mean me Explain that to them .
Speaker 1No . So , like I think about the way I think about session , and the thing that gives me peace is that like , let's say , we have a 60 minute session right , I know , but let's just say we have a 60 minute session , I have four 15 minute increments . Every five minutes I'm making a reflection . The reflection I'm making the first five minutes is a content , then a feeling , then a process reflection . And then I'm looking at the feelings wheel and I'm trying , in that first feeling , I'm trying to make that last feeling , I reflect the deepest feeling right . And so in session , what I'm trying to do is go deeper and deeper and deeper . And I found that whenever I do that in session and I have this piece about where I'm going , the freer I feel because I can only make one choice .
Speaker 1So I don't feel anxious like , I don't feel this existential lostness which I think ruins my pc session . Sure , I feel this sense of direction and momentum , like this kinetic energy that's like a , you know , like a little hook in your navel that's pulling you towards the deeper , deeper feeling . And I think that's the peace that I want to feel , is this sense of momentum and session . And I want the client to feel the same thing . I feel like my clients don't feel peace whenever we're both just looking at each other like , yeah , so I guess the world's just benignly different to human suffering . So see you next week . See you next week , you know , and I've had those sessions when I was dating existentialism because I thought I was nihilistic .
Speaker 2Yeah , you know , don't act like y'all didn't have a beret .
Speaker 1Oh , I remember that oh yeah , Don't act like y'all didn't have a beret . Oh , I remember that . Oh yeah , Don't act like y'all didn't have a beret . Yeah .
Speaker 2You know , this man was in the supervision room like , but what does it all mean ? What's it all ? About Does relationships even matter . I was man what does connection mean ?
Speaker 1My sessions felt disjointed , my work felt disconnected , the work from one session to the next felt disconnected . You know what I mean ? Like we just we weren't going anywhere , you know , and my whole work , like regardless of what client , I just felt like chaotic you know , Sure , yeah , for me it's a little different .
Speaker 2And because I know we're pressed for time , because I know Jude likes to keep us on time , Because you know he likes this , he's already scheduled this 30 minutes . We've got 20 minutes for questions , Five minutes for pauses . You're going to blink 15 times .
Speaker 1No , I'm going to take 10 minutes Now look look , look , y'all know people in the media wouldn't want to learn that . Y'all know it . Without my structure , nobody can . If I didn't tell him Julius , julius , wake up , julius , I remember he would still be in the bed . I don't woke up . Like , I see your faculty , I see your faculty , like I call him before class . All right , okay , that's enough . All right , I just got there .
Speaker 2I don't want to burn bridges yet .
Speaker 1Hold on Wait a minute . Hold on Wait .
Speaker 2I'm a responsible boy . Okay , wait a minute , hold on , I'm a responsible boy . Now , for me it's a little different . Like for you , I guess , your pathway , your vehicle to peace is structure and for me , I think , the vehicle to peace for me , and it may be similar is permission . There's like a balance of permission and preparedness . So for me , I feel like when I'm prepared in session and what that looks like is not necessarily counting the minutes on the clock For me it's like am I ? Like ? Is my family okay ? Like , is my family safe ? Right ? Like shoot a text to my wife and like are you all good ? Like are the kids good ? Are you good ? Do you need anything ? I'm about to go in session for like maybe two , three hours , and you know when you're in session for two to three hours , you're like when did it rain outside ? Like what happened ?
Love: Staying in Love with the Profession
Speaker 1Or you start hearing the news from your clients . Yeah , and you're like what you start telling them about like did you hear what happened ?
Speaker 2And you lie . I've been in here all day . It's crazy . No , I'm with you . Now Tell me how you experience it . I don't know what the hell is going on outside . I'm hungry , I'm thirsty I hadn't peed in an hour and a half Like I don't know .
Speaker 2So for me it's the preparedness , it's that it's . Do I need water ? Like , do I need to stand and stretch ? Do I need to pay attention to like what's happening internally for me , and that that balance gives me the permission to be as free and at peace as possible . It gives me the permission to not only like take chances in session relationally , so like what I mean by take chances , I mean like express with the client what I'm experiencing in the moment relationally with the client . But it also gives me permission to like fail , you know , and like failure to the students that's in there , because I know I have students in there Like failure .
Speaker 2Isn't this like catastrophic thing ? It's actually an opportunity to explore with the client . Right , I know it sounds super cheesy , but I love when I say , oh , it sounds like you feel this way , and the client's like no , that's not it , because now it's like oh , so you know what it not is . That's the opera losers and the caracole coming out . I'm sorry , what it not is , what it not is . Y'all get what I'm saying , man . Come on , man , we here now , we in the charts at the Golden Nugget man . But it gives me an opportunity to share with the client , okay . So you know what you're not feeling . So , like , help me out , like bring me closer to what you're actually experiencing . You know that type of failure . That type of permission gives me an opportunity to be open and transparent with my client , especially with my experiences and stuff . So I got a question .
Speaker 1What's the peace for ? What's the peace for ? What is the what's the point of having peace in your work , in your life ? What's the what's ?
Speaker 2the point , yeah . So , to be completely transparent , I felt like I'm still trying to figure that out . You know , I feel like at every . I feel like I knew exactly what the peace was for when I got my first paycheck . You remember that first paycheck ? Listen , I got my first paycheck from my full-time job and I was like mama , you ain't got to work no more . Hey , hey , hey , we , we made it . Mama , this is the most money I've ever made in my life and they're going to keep giving it to you Two times a month , yeah . And then I had my first kid and I was like where did the money go ? And they're going to keep giving it to me First and 15th Two times a month , yeah . And then I had my first kid and I was like where did the money go ? I feel like I'm being squeezed . What is happening ?
Speaker 2So , yeah , I think when I first started , it was like it was the piece , the financial aspect of like , oh , I'm not a student anymore . I feel like I can finally have some room to breathe , to like pay for stuff without having to worry about you know , what am I going to eat tonight ? I think now what's transitioned is like what's peace for me is being able to say no , I'm not seeing clients on Friday after two o'clock . You know , like I'm not . I'm not doing that . Like oh , my son has a flag football game on Wednesdays . I'm not scheduling . Oh , I can coach . I can coach soccer now with my old disc . Oh , I could take my daughter to dance on Wednesday evenings at 5.30 and not have to pick up , you know a client and not have to seea couple . To me , that's what peace looks like now for me .
Speaker 1Yeah , and you know , I want to say a couple of things .
Speaker 2Even though I put her leotard on and she always has to pee when I put the leotard on it never fails . As a matter of fact , I put the leotard on in the bathroom because I know it's coming- it's ridiculous , it's a trigger .
Speaker 1Uh , yeah , I think , um , I think that's why I usually will ask students when they come in and they maybe want some advice about what to do . I usually say think about what kind of life you want to have instead of what kind of job you want to have . For that very reason Because I think that's what we're all trying to work towards at least I'll speak for myself is working towards that peace to work towards at least I'll speak for myself is working towards that peace . Yeah , you know . But the second thing I wanted to say that I wrote here and that you reminded me of is that I think I try to work towards peace and I create the structure that I do , which gives me the peace and the freedom to explore and be spontaneous , because of how much I respect the client's time .
Speaker 1Oh yeah , sure , and money too . I don't know if you remember the first time a client , like , paid you for work . Whew , Like I felt like the session sucked , Like I felt like I should pay them for it . You ever have those sessions where you're like nah , eh , eh .
Speaker 2I wish I could go back and give some money , don't worry , yeah , like listen , this was not at my those sessions for you like nah , hey , hey , I wish I can go back and get some money . Yeah , like , listen I this was not at my best . I didn't know what the hell I was doing . If anybody's looking for a new practice name , it's called on the house therapy .
Speaker 1Look if , if , if you just don't tell nobody about it , yeah , it's even enough , like don't tell nobody .
Speaker 2I'm out here doing this to people . I'm so sorry .
Speaker 1But for real , I think you know , and I remember asking that client you know like how much , like what do you have to sacrifice in order to make this work ? And man , some of the answers that the clients would say , I mean , it just made me see therapy so differently than I did when I was a student . I think when I was a student I was like I'm about to do some therapy , you know .
Speaker 2Oh wait , what would you do ? I didn't see that I'm about to do some therapy . I'm about to cure some people .
Speaker 1And then you meet these real people and you're like geez man , these people are sacrificing . You know food and rent and vacations . You know , and you know to do the work , and so I thought I need to create a structure . You know , sure , that helps . Yeah , that helps . Yeah , okay , we're doing good .
Speaker 2Hey , we're doing good . I just have to set two alarms and cut you off . Okay , all right , we're doing good .
Speaker 1All right , once he gets a mic to be here , man , okay . So let's transition into love , because I feel like that conversation about taking care of I'm so nervous about saying stuff and seeing them as real people who are making real sacrifices and honoring the sacrifices they're making to be here . I think that aligns itself with the idea of love . What's your first thought , jesus , on love ? The first thing I have is oh wait , should I ask the question first ? Yeah , okay , okay . So when we were preparing this , jesus , and I were thinking gosh , which is the question we want to answer , you know , in the conversation and I think we came up with how do you stay in love with this profession ? Oh , that was a powerful question , yeah , yeah , but I think , hey , that's the question I feel like I'm asking myself Every single time a client doesn't make progress . You know what I mean . Every single time I'm like a student doesn't reach their potential , or I feel like I'm floundering .
Speaker 2It's such a weird relationship . Sometimes you feel like you are doing your best work , your best work , and then other times you're like did I even help anybody today ? Yes , like , am I Like what did I do today ?
Speaker 1But , susan , there's sometimes where I'm like I'm going to just be a carpenter , because at least I can see what I'm doing . All this money that we pay , I pay all the debt I'll tell you , just to be able to see progress . I built that chair , you know , because sometimes , like you're in therapy and you're like , did I ? Yeah , I don't know , it's sometimes abusive a little bit , or at least , at the very least , counseling and me we have counseling is an avoided , attached person . Here we go .
Speaker 2It feels like .
Speaker 1Here's the PowerPoint . Cue the PowerPoint All right , but it feels like that sometimes because you go into it and you want so much from it . You know , you just want so much from it , at least in the beginning , you know .
Speaker 2But what's your thought ? Okay , so I'm so nervous about this , but whatever , my answer to that question of how do you stay in love with the profession is approach the counseling relationship as if it's your second relationship . All right , so just stick with it , because there's a story and there's a lot of trauma attached to the story . But whatever , do you remember the first relationship that you had ? Like I was like maybe 17 . I was like , hmm , I was like 18 . And I was like mom .
Speaker 2I know I've only gone out on one and a half dates with like a random person from high school , but I met this girl and I know for a fact we're going to spend the rest of our lives together . No , I'm marrying this person . I know I'm 18 and I know I just got done having to raise my hand to go to the bathroom in class , but I'm going to marry this woman , mom . And then my mom doing the gracious thing of saying , okay , baby , sure , sure , you will . And I was like , see , even mom believes in you . And then , and then you go through that . You go through that , go through that like first breakup , like the breakup with that person , right , and it's usually like you know how it is for people who do like college counseling . You know our clients will come in and they'll be like you know , how long have you been dating each other ? Like , oh , we've been dating each other forever .
Speaker 2It's been like you know maybe 520 days , you know , maybe like a year and a half , it's been forever Like I know this person through and through , right , that's how I felt . And then the relationship ends and you're like I'm never going to find anyone else like this for the rest of my life . I guess I'll just be alone forever , mom , you know , and you like cry and sulk , right , and then a little bit of space happens , right , you have maybe a little bit of time , you do a little bit of growing , right . Maybe you like I don't know going on a couple of dates with other people , maybe get some therapy , maybe get some therapy , and then you enter into , like that second relationship , right , and hopefully that person's in their second relationship as well , right , so now you're sitting at a table and you're like , I know what I want , you know what you want , like , will this actually work together ?
Speaker 2You know , for me that's kind of like what , that's kind of how I stay in love with this profession . Is that like ? I treat it as if it has the potential of making me feel the pressure to say yes to a client when I know I don't have the time in my schedule to say yes to , you know , a speaking engagement , when I know that , like it butts right up with my kids you know dance recital , but if I just make it I could , you know . It gives me the pressure to feel like I failed in a way . That's like very self-deprecating . Right , this profession , even though we do great work right , and everybody in here feels like they're , you know , providing a service for society , for their community . It also has the potentiality , just like my girlfriend when I was 18,- to really hurt me , it's okay man , it's okay To really hurt me .
Speaker 2No , listen y'all I don't know if anybody's here from like . You remember the 1900s ? Well , yeah , so that's when I was born in the 1900s and back then we made like mixtapes . When I was in college I made . I was there .
Speaker 2I can't believe I'm talking about this . I was watching you Thinking like , don't do it . I wrote that to her parents . Thank you so much for accepting me into your household . I sent her the best mix CD I'm talking . I spent three days crafting this thing . I got nothing back . She was like no , I'm done right . It's just sometimes . That's how the counseling field is right . Sometimes you feel like you're doing really great work with a client . You're humming along . You feel like you were one with the spirit of therapy right Like rainbows shot down in session and then the client's just like no shows , no calls .
Speaker 1And I'm like what the hell ? What did I do ? Were you not entertained ?
Speaker 2Like you try not to take it personally , but then you got to go to your colleague and it's like hey , is it me Like , am I the problem here , you know ? And your colleague's like your colleague and it's like hey , is it me like , am I the problem here ? You know , your colleagues are like no , it's not you . That's why we're here . Well , there we go . Yeah , so treat it like it's the second relationship , right with the potential to harm . All right , that's all I love that man because it you know .
Speaker 2Oh , now we got to go do some like stretching to get this .
Speaker 1No , it reminds me of you , know I was going to say , and something similar to you is that you have to differentiate from the relationship . Sure , I know we got some LMFTs in the room Right . When you have to , I almost , I almost try to see counseling like the work I'm doing as an individual next to me , you know , and like Judas and I are standing next to each other . We're tethered to each other and if you think of , like a bungee cord , how you have these I'm actually carrying I feel like I've been carrying for a while .
Speaker 1My legs are it's fine . It's fine because it's fine , because it's fine because you know , your university wanted me first . Okay , wow , but I told them . I said no yeah , no , it's gone man .
Speaker 2All right , let me take , tell them y'all called me Y'all know it , we flip all these tables in here . Man Dude , they're a little mess up . Vicky's LCA sign over there man , nah , man , you have .
Speaker 1So you know , like Jesus and I we're tethered right , like in counseling we're tethered and in a healthy relationship that tether that's connected to you feels comfortable . You know , like if you're in an anxious relationship , that thing is taught . Yeah , you know , and you move and then it moves Right and you feel like you can't move Like you've ever been stuck like in a job and you feel like there's this gravitational force towards it . It's like and you hear these stories from like an abusive , an abusive relationship and work with clients that are in those abusive relationships and you think to yourself , why don't you just leave ? Yeah , and they can't .
Speaker 1And sometimes we form these unhealthy , anxious attachments with the profession and you think like , no , I have to see these clients because my life is only going to be meaningful if I do this work . And the anxiety in there it may not feel like energy anxiety , but it may feel like stifling anxiety . But , man , that's not love and it's the same . It's the same way when the relationship is too , too loose and you feel too disconnected from it . And you feel disconnected from your work and you're going to a job . But you know , like you've been in those places sometimes where you don't pass by your boss's office , but you just don't got time for that , you know , and if you're sneaking through the back door you know , and if you're sneaking through the back door like you're the part , you park in the non-faculty parking spot .
Speaker 1You pick the office with the exit door next to it and then you park out back . You know you in and out . You don't talk to people . You know , like we , we need to be aware of that stuff when we're thinking about how do we stay in love with this profession . It's we have to create a healthy relationship with it , meaning we have to be able to pay attention to when we're too close to it and maybe we're getting our identity from it and meaning and purpose from it , all of it Right . And we have to pay attention to when we're too disconnected from it and we're just in session , we're not listening . Or you can hear yourself talk about clients with colleagues . Now , you know , and you see your colleagues kind of going like all right , okay , all right , might have to report Because they don't want to be in an ethical violation situation , and so we just we got to pay attention to that , you know . And then I hope y'all get my humor when I say this but one way that I say it .
Speaker 2Oh , is this one of those types of humor where you can get fired ?
Speaker 1No , no , but it's because I just talked about healthy relationships and I cheat on counseling . I do , I do , I step out , I do . I cheat on counseling with my wife . I cheat on counseling with my friends . I cheat on counseling with my church . No , with my community . No , with my hobbies , like , look , I don't let counseling bear a lot of burden on my health and well-being . I cheat , I spread it out , you know , like where I get my value from different things . I get my purpose from different things . And it's hard , man , because I think a lot of students , you know , and I know I'm talking a lot , but I think a lot of students , I didn't say that , you just kind of heard it , I just felt you , you know , see , sometimes you and I know I'm talking a lot , but I think a lot of students .
Speaker 2I didn't say that , you just kind of heard it . Yeah , I just felt you you know See sometimes you got to let them talk themselves out . They get tuckered out . That's what you do with your clients , All right go to sleep .
Speaker 1Go to sleep , all right , no , but I just I remember being a student and kind of romanticizing private practice . You know Like , oh , I'm about to make a lot of money , I mean serve the community . Wow , I'm about to serve all the people's lives I will touch . And then you're sitting there , man , is that MasterCard Visa ? You're sitting there and you're doing treatment notes . That's not sexy , that's not . You didn't sign up for duty . And then you're billing .
Speaker 2Oh , especially the students out here Like do you remember your first treatment note ? It was like longer than my dissertation . I was like no , I have to put everything . She said that in 1924 , her mom from .
Speaker 1Opelousas to , but for real . And then you're doing treatment plans , and then you're doing termination notes , and then you're going to court , and then you're doing termination notes , and then you're going to court and you have all of these things . It's just like a real relationship where you start looking at counseling .
Speaker 2I'm like you've changed yeah , you weren't the person I started this relationship with .
Speaker 1You've changed like no counseling has always been the same . You weren't dating counseling , you were dating your own needs and using counseling to cope .
Speaker 2There we go , he got around to it . There we go , he got around to it .
Speaker 1Seriously , and it's happened to me , it's happened to people I know and I feel like that you conflate that with love , and it's just lust . It's just lust .
Speaker 2They got the pop with the lust it's sexy to have an aesthetically pleasing office .
Speaker 1Oh man , you know , with the scented candles the nice pillows and the gym .
Speaker 2The sofa you paid way too damn much for , it's expensive . You know it's expensive . Where you get that money . The sofa , you know for a fact . When you saw it you were like I can't afford this , but I love to see it in my office . So I got $3,000 for a sofa . But serious somebody to cry on . Come on , you see him , you're in session . They're like am I ? Hey ?
Speaker 1Hey , hey , hey .
Speaker 2Hey , don't put your nasty ass hands Yo .
Speaker 1Are you safe ? I'm going to do play therapy and I'm going to get a sandbox .
Speaker 2Yeah , kids are like .
Speaker 1Who's going to vacuum this ? Oh , you got a handheld dump . Kids are like why is it so sick ?
Speaker 2I hate him here , I hate him here .
Speaker 1I hate him , oh man Anyway , but I think that's the point I'm trying to make . It's that you have to have a real relationship with counseling .
Speaker 2You got to see it that way , all right , all right , so this is the last point . If you're going to have a real relationship with counseling , counseling also needs a contract , right ? So this is the thing , right , like , maybe silent but maybe not so silent contract that we , that we had with each other as graduate students . Right To like one . Yes , we're going to go through this experience together in graduate school , but also we're going to go through this experience in the professional sphere as well , right after we graduate and you go on to the community , like you see people that you've graduated with and you know you're like , oh , do you remember our group experience ? Oh , do you remember this time when professor x did this or professor y did that ?
Speaker 2Right , I think that there's the way that you , you stay in love with this profession . Is that , like , we all make a contract with each other to , like , genuinely take care of each other ? Right ? Not in like , uh , you know , uh , you need a bottle of water . Like how you doing ? I mean like , hey , yo , how you doing . Like how you feeling , you know , like , genuinely , what's going on . Like , do you need some time away from therapy ? Do you need me to help with your clients ? Do you need this ? Do you need that ? How is supervision going for you Like ? Do you like being a supervisor ? What do you actually need and I think sometimes we don't talk about that enough in graduate school it's the contract that we make with each other to care for each other , not just in graduate school , but throughout our whole career . Throughout the whole career . See that , g See that . See that .
Speaker 1Yeah , hey , second choice isn't so bad . No , you see that . You see that . Did you hear that ? I got a little bit of a clap . Now that was good . You smart , you is smart , you is kind . That's our affirmations , genius .
Speaker 2No , seriously , though right , because , like , it's a really good feeling when you see somebody at a conference and you give them this big bear hug . Not the hug where it's just like you know , I'm talking about the hug where you I just did it with Juno here with a rock you know , you rock with each other . Yeah , like , how are you doing ? How's your mom and them , like , how's your kids doing ? That type of care for each other is something that it's a , it's a contract that we all make in our graduate student experience .
Speaker 1Yeah , but it didn't always start like that , it didn't .
Speaker 2It didn't always start like that for you .
Speaker 1I was in Jesus' practice session and I got the tape .
Speaker 2Alright . Well , let's roll with the tape . Hey , listen , if anybody wants to take all of my money , tell me that you got that tape of my very first session and I'll hear you go . Take it all . Do not let this air out anywhere . Oh no , I'm telling them about it right now .
Speaker 1Yeah , so listen , so we're in practice , right , and we're in pre-practice , pre practice , pre practice , and we're practicing . And I know my brother , we shared a womb together . Okay , right , we shared DNA , right , yeah , and A right . I've never heard him use the word Fortnite in my life , in my entire life . We grew up in Louisiana .
Speaker 2He's always used two weeks , right , two weeks . I'm not proud of it . I'm not . Yeah , I was like so when you want to come back in Like a Fortnite from now ? The client looked at me , like I'm in there , like he's like , yeah , he there , like yeah yeah , yeah , a fortnight , yeah , a fortnight , Kind of like what are you talking about ? But I say this to say that A fortnight of two weeks .
Speaker 1I say this to say I think that there's a piece in there about you get people to take care of you by being your real self , sure , you know , and I think it's a developmental thing Like people can't love like the fake you you know what I mean . They just can't . And I feel like I learned that in session Like that's one of the ways I take care of myself and one of the ways that I love myself in session is by being myself , and if the client doesn't like me , then at least they're rejecting me and not like a fake version of myself . You know what I mean . But I feel like that love and that hug and that stuff , it doesn't connect when you're being fake , sure .
Speaker 2Well , it's a process , right , Like we accept you into our graduate program because of who you naturally are as a person , yeah Right . And then you get into your first year and you're like , oh , I got to change everything about myself to be this like counselor that I have to yeah , the pedestal of a you know . And then you graduate and you're like , oh , it's not how much . And you're like , oh , it's not how much longer can I be this like caricature of what a clinician is ?
Speaker 1How , much longer . You know what I feel like I'm doing . I feel like when I'm training students , I'm just trying to get them back to where they were when they first started , but now with the new knowledge and skills from , like you know , project management , I say all of that to say , like , what am I doing ?
Speaker 1And this is the question I had in here when you said that in my mind was what am I doing to create a space where I can love people enough in my clinics , in the area , for them to be themselves , so that I can love them for who they are ? Like , what am I doing ?
Speaker 2You know , hey , hey , come what I mean hey , hey , come on man , hey , hey , I thought I told you , but only when I speak .
Speaker 1I paid you $25 outside , no , but for real . I think Jews and I , we've been super blessed because we've got to go through this experience with each other right , and you got something to say .
Speaker 2No , you know what I'm just saying . It was hard , I had to put up with a lot .
Speaker 1Well , I went through it with you and we always had this built-in almost like armor to rejection , you know , because it's like well , so what if you don't like me ? You know he likes me . Yeah Right , you do right , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2Sure , yeah , yes sure .
Speaker 1I'm like nah man , but you know what I mean and so I definitely have a sense of appreciation for how hard it is when you are going through this field and you go and you take a theory class and none of the theories look like you or sound like you and you feel like you— or none of the professors None of the professors look like you or sound like you , and you feel like you have to sacrifice your identity for acceptance . You know what I mean .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's an insidious voice that says be more like us and be less like you . Yes , and it's an undercurrent sometimes in the profession , but I don't want to preach up here . You know no , but it's the truth .
Speaker 1Because , seriously , it becomes . So you look at yourself in the mirror or , better yet , you watch yourself on tape and you fall just a little bit out of love with yourself . The more you see yourself , the less like yourself , yeah , you know . And you have a supervisor validating that change instead of getting to know who you are and supporting you . You know what I mean ? Yep , it's just the truth , you know . And so then you end up , you know , like I love wearing
Self-Care: Beyond Drinking Water
Speaker 1Jordans , but you end up going like Jordans aren't therapeutic . Yeah , they're not . Yeah , they are , they still are .
Speaker 1I mean , seriously , put on some Jordans and see if you don't connect with your clients . You know what I mean . Because , like you know , so you feel like you got to , you know , and that's not love , and that's what I mean . Like we got to do a better job . I have to do a better job of paying attention to when I'm getting dissident from Sure , when I'm getting distanced from and defining what counseling is , and being myself and holding myself accountable to being myself , you know , and then creating a space for other people . I think that's love . I think that's love , yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah , all right . Yeah , want to transition to self-care .
Speaker 1Yeah , All right , how much time we ?
Speaker 2got . We got 20 minutes .
Speaker 1Yeah , we got time .
Speaker 2We got time , we got 20 minutes . Yeah , we got time , we got time . Okay cool , do we have time ?
Speaker 1I don't know where Vicky is , but we're having fun , Okay . Council of Self-Care . So we wrote a book on Council of Self-Care with Jericho . We're on the second edition . We just published the second edition . I don't know when , but it came out a while ago . The first edition was translated into Korean , which was weird because we wrote that book in our pajamas and so it feels like I wasn't ready for it , I feel seen . I feel vulnerable , and so I think what we're going to do .
Speaker 2So let me just jump For self-counsel or self-care . It's super simple . Just after you know , because your sessions last 50 minutes . So with the 10 minutes you have after session , make sure you finish your clinical notes , make sure . Why are y'all laughing ?
Speaker 1That's what they say Finish your clinical notes . Why are y'all laughing ? Drink some water , stretch , get up and walk , do some exercises .
Speaker 2Yes , and don't allow any crises to happen during lunchtime .
Speaker 1Make sure that you eat your lunch and finish sessions on time . When a client tries to doorknob you , you just say uh-uh .
Speaker 2Uh-uh , not today , don't get . No , no , not today . Yeah , yeah , what else you got for me ? Stay grounded , make sure you never lift your feet off the ground ever . Stay square to the client all the time , make eye contact . I'm saying , don't even blink . Get yourself some Visine and just drip it the whole time .
Speaker 1Nah , man , I think that's what it is , that's what it feels like .
Speaker 2You come out of graduate school , you're like all right , baby , let me finish these notes , and you're like it's been an hour . Jesus , Wait , hold on . You mean to tell me I saw seven people today and I only have 30 minutes between 4 and 4.30 to finish my notes . What happened at 8 this morning , Like what happened .
Speaker 1I know , man , I know , but I do think that it's very important for us to take care of ourselves . Obviously , we do think that it's very important for us to take care of ourselves . Obviously , we wrote the book in there , uh , and I think what we want to try to do is think about self-care in a different way . You've probably been beaten over the head with like top 10 ways to take care of yourself , and you guys have all heard about it take your time , drink water and eat food and yada , yada , you know , like all of that stuff , and that stuff is amazing . It is really really good .
Speaker 1But I feel like we needed to shift our viewpoint of counselor self-care . That fits us a little bit more . You know , because there's some chapters of our lives where you just got to let the nightmare wash over you . Yeah , I don't know if you guys have experienced that , like having a baby not being able to sleep , but having therapy the next day , oh yeah , like there's just something about that . Oh yeah , so , um yeah . So one of the things that I wanted to um to talk about was , um , how counseling has changed over the past couple years and why it's so important for us to take care of ourselves . What's one of the things that you've noticed that's like different , and why it's so important for us to take care of ourselves ?
Speaker 2So this is one of the things that I've noticed in my own practice is that my clients over the past like decade , have become way more resourceful about their own experience , right , like clients are like well-educated , like they will look at psychology today and look at your background . They look at , like , what you offer . They look at your education and they're like I don't think you're a good fit for me , I'm not sure of you . They understand what they're experiencing Like before I came to you , I did some Googling , I did some TikToking and I did this diagnosis Right .
Speaker 2So they come , as opposed to you know maybe 10 years ago where clients would come in and they're like I don't really know how therapy works . Right , I think nowadays clients know how they have an idea about how therapy works right . So for me , like , really caring for myself is kind of letting the client take the lead more often in session with what the process of therapy looks like . I'm not saying you know , like they're going to therapize themselves . It's a clinical word , therapize , right , everyone's using it here , you know , um , but but I do find that that for me , caring for myself now is a relinquishing of uh , of the expectation for myself to be like the expert on the process of therapy . Well , yeah , man .
Speaker 1Yeah , especially nowadays , because I think clients , like one thing that I've noticed is that clients want more of a real experience . You know , and remember , like COVID days where we're all doing therapy no , I'm blocked in , it's all going . But seriously , clients were popping into our living rooms . Oh yeah , you know , they were in your office , you know , and they could hear Like there's times where I'd be like hey look , you know , it's a noon session or a 1 o'clock session and my kids are outside screaming , like you're going to hear them playing . And I'm hearing kids scream and I'm doing my best . I got mufflers , I got all of the stuff Right . I got three boys Like hey man , stuff be happening out there . I don't know what it is , you know , I hear cars , I hear screams , I hear police , it's coming .
Speaker 2Boys nothing .
Speaker 1What do you mean ? Nothing , no . But seriously , clients , like you said , the stigma is down a little bit . They buy DSMs on Amazon . Oh yeah , you know , like they come in having ran a little bit not all clients , but I think overall it feels like there's a little bit more pressure to be real , you know , which means that there's a boundary that's cross , where before you can get away with this kind of professional distance , yeah , and now it feels like you just won't eat . If you do that , you know clients just won't come to you . They're no longer limited by like who's around them . Now they can call me or call somebody from Burbridge , I'll call somebody from— .
Speaker 2Not Burbridge . Yeah , they're Burbridge . No hate , no hate . Somebody goes , oh .
Speaker 1Yeah , fight me fight me .
Speaker 2Who fight me but you ?
Speaker 1know , I feel like before it was like if you're a therapist in Lafayette , the clients in Lafayette are going to concede . That's no longer the case , you know , and so it's changed , which means that there's more pressure , there's more . I don't know like the standards feels like . I don't know if you guys feel that , but it feels like , man , clients know what I'm doing in technique . Before I'd be able to be like sneak it in , trick them . You know we're doing something . Now they're like oh yeah , the voice dialogue technique . Oh no , that's cute . No , I saw that I did that with my last therapist yeah , I'm gonna need something else , big dog ?
Speaker 2the miracle question I'm gonna need something else , big dog .
Speaker 1I saw that on instagram . What else you got ?
Speaker 2yeah , what else you got what else you got , you got and you're just like hold on .
Speaker 1My professor said I had a toolbox , a toolbox , toolbox . This is my toolbox man , but for real for real , though , and and you're trying to , you're trying to do these things and you can feel like a magician . You know what I mean ? Like , let me , let me get my sand tray out . I'll get my sand tray . Don't let me bring expression into this , you know , and so you do . I feel like , for I feel like that's what's changed .
Speaker 2So let me let me just add to that right , because I want to be a little bit more practical . I think , another way like so , yes , care for yourself . And we could go through the . You know the tried and true method of like , yes , exercise , drink water . You know , be attentive to your needs .
Speaker 2But I think I think now , for me personally , it's like having my finances in order , like I like before , like when I first started my practice , I mean I was writing receipts on like napkins . You know , just like , here you go . You know I was like taking cash from , like cash in hand , and I'm like what do I do with this cash ? Put it in my pocket . You know , like I was using it to get into , like , what do I do with this cash ? Put it in my pocket . You know , like I was using it to get into , like my son's basketball game that night . You know my CPA was like where'd the money go ? I'm like I broke up . I don't know Brosmart , I don't know Piggly Wiggly . I had to get the road stopped . You know I had . No , I didn't take a class on like and here's how you manage your practice and here's how you manage your money . You know . This is what it's like to be a business owner and a clinician . It was not that that wasn't accessible to me now .
Speaker 1But when did it get real for you , like , when did self-care , like was it when you had kids that ?
Speaker 2you started to go . That's what I was going to say . So when I first we had our first son , right , I just thought to myself , like oh , it's not like me mismanaging my money , me like not being that business intentional could not just affect me , like it can affect my whole family . Like I need to know what the hell I'm doing . I need to know , like , how to pay taxes . I need to know what , like what's going on .
Speaker 2Maybe I should like hire someone you know like , maybe I should like and that stuff was so like okay , now can I automate my scheduling system , right , like there's all this plethora of online tools that we use as clinicians to like automate what we do , right , especially if you're like so isolated in a private practice . For me , that's taking care of myself , making sure that I actually spend the money to make sure that I'm cared for in that way . Right , because I'm not going to do it Like a client tells me yep , same time next week . I'm going to be like , sure , you know . And then I check my schedule . I'm like oh , oh , I can't now I'm double booked .
Speaker 1Yeah , you know , now there's automated things that helps me care for myself in that way yeah , I love that because it it makes me think of how self-care we don't oftentimes think of it this way , unless you teach lifespan um I do it's , I'm sorry .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's a lot of information .
Speaker 1It's a developmental process . I don't know if we see it that way , like how I took care of myself as a graduate student is different than how I take care of myself now . Oh yeah , like completely different , I think when I was a graduate student .
Speaker 2I just didn't want to pee myself in session .
Speaker 1Yeah , there was , like I just didn't want to . But seriously , there's like little things where like you remember holding the intake paperwork . Welcome to the clinic . That camera is there for me , not for you .
Speaker 2The camera up here is for me .
Speaker 1Actually , could you switch chairs with me , because ?
Speaker 2it is looking , feeling like everything was lost when you forgot to hit the record button .
Speaker 1Or the client will cry and you look up at the camera like it's different . I don't do that anymore . He's crying . I did that .
Speaker 2I did that
Client Education and Practice Management
Speaker 2. This is therapy now .
Speaker 1No , but it's so developmental man , and I think you have to think about it that way , right , like you know how you take care of yourself as a student . Sometimes you have to . Just it's a chapter of your life that's just called struggle , you know , and it's hard and you're not going to get paid a lot , if anything , it's just a problem . But there's just so many different ways , especially when you first start and maybe you make a little bit of money and you can start taking care of yourself . Not that you need money to do that . But you start thinking about , like , how do I manage my finances ? How do I manage how , like taking care of yourself ? Is getting a good , like professional photo , oh , man , like I don't know if you've seen clinicians , but like the selfies , like man , look , get a professional photo , because that's how clients choose us . Yeah , you know , writing a good thing , getting an office that you feel comfortable with , getting a supervisor , like .
Speaker 1I think I want you guys to walk away from this , thinking that self-care has a lot more to do with the choices you make about the kind of experience you have as a growing therapist than it does like working out and exercising . That stuff's important , but I think if it's like first-order change stuff , you know like that's the first level , but if you want to make some deeper , more connected , relational self-care changes , then I think you have to ask yourself the deeper questions Like how do I want to live and have a meaningful experience in this profession ? You know , like , is this clinic where I want to grow for the next two years ? You know like I'll say this and I know his faculty is sitting here , but when I call my brother and he's interviewing at UL .
Speaker 2Hold on , you're not the same person that's going to give me five . I'm trying to .
Speaker 1I just , you know , I'm trying . No , he , I said like you know , why do you want to work there ? You know ? And one of the things he said was was I just trust these people with my development . I just I trust them with my development . Now , dude , I trust him with y'all's development . Where are my students at ? I'm so sorry . I mean , if you want to get unaccredited , I'm just Go hard , let him loose , you know , don't , let me loose't , no , but , but I think , like those questions are caring questions , you know that you don't think about . I feel like maybe you spend too much time going like I want to exercise , I'm going to lift weights , I'm going to drink water , and and then you go to a toxic supervision session and it's like , but you hydrated and abused you , you swole up in session , swole up , but you're getting like , I mean just like emotionally abused .
Speaker 1Yeah , the supervisor's not showing up one time , you know you know it's like I think that's the thing that we learned . Like you know , when we say , like what kind of life you want to have , it's like you know that's why I got a phd is for the freedom . Say like what kind of life you want to have , it's like you know that's why I got a PhD is for the freedom to have that kind of life . You know , sure . And so what sacrifices are you making ? Because sometimes , developmentally , you're at a place where you go . This sacrifice is worth it . I will do three years here so that I can .
Speaker 1Sometimes you got to choose that internship site because you just need to get licensed . We get it . You just need to get licensed so you can serve people , make some money , right , and so sometimes you do have to go . Look , I'm not going to put my identity in this internship site . I'm going to work at it for 18 to 21 months , I'm going to get my license and then I'm getting out of here Like make a contract with yourself . I'm getting out of here Like make a contract with yourself . I'm getting out so many times I'll talk to people and they're like licensed for two , three years , still working in the same place . That has hurt them . Yeah , you know it's like take care of yourself . But hey , man , perfect attendance in CrossFit . Yeah , congratulations . 5 am club 6 am .
Speaker 2You know Well . So to add to that of taking care of yourself , I think one of the and just like some small stuff because I know we're running out of time , like it for me it was being paid . What I was worth , um , like that was , that was , hey , that was a turn , like a turning point in my career . Like , oh , I'm only a PLPC , so I can only charge this much . Oh , I'm only three years in , so I can only charge this much .
Speaker 2And working with clients because we're in the caring profession , you kind have this like hesitation when the client's like , okay , how much is it going to be ? And then you're like one , one , one one . And the client's like what ? And you're like 150 . And the client's like I can't , I can't do that . And you're like , okay , but what can you do ? You know , like that , that little piece .
Speaker 2And I'm not , I'm not , I'm not advocating to not do that right . I'm just saying when you do that a lot of times it's different , it hits different , right , when you actually start getting paid what you , what you're worth , and clients are feeling like the benefit of the work that they're doing with you , you're feeling the financial boost of like , okay , I am worth this much money in my practice . Oh , I can actually put money into my practice now . Oh , I can afford the nice , the nice sofa . I can afford like coffee in the waiting room , you know , like that type of stuff .
Speaker 2It's like it's a completely different way of caring for yourself than the traditional way . You know , like you know that the first time you say like this is how much a session for me costs and a client's like , okay , yeah , I'll make that work . And you see the client for like six , six sessions and work's going really well , and you're like , wow , this is yeah , you know . And so you ask that question like , should I go up in my fees ? Right , and everybody has the question with their supervisor like how do I do that ? What do I do ? I tell my all my clients that or do I just slowly transition right , like once you actually start charging how much you're worth man it like it hits different it does , man , it does , and and you can start aligning your practice , your structure , your personal life .
Speaker 1You create boundaries in your personal life . You create meaning in your life . You know , like , look , I'm going to be honest and say , and I know y'all , even if you want to admit it , there's times in therapy where I had just as much of a corrected emotional experience . Oh yeah , you know just as much as my clients do . You know whether you know , I'm not in there processing my own stuff , but there's times where I'm pushing a client and then I'm pushing and we're growing and they're seeing stuff , and then , like I feel a little tear , you know . And then a client goes are you aware that your eyes are moist ? And I'm like , get out of here , don't be hitting me . That's the problem . Get back up there , tiff , get back in here , you know . But I feel like that stuff can only happen when you're connected to the work and that's why we take care of ourselves . That's why it's so important , that's why it's an ethical mandate , so that you could have these deeper , maybe more life-changing experiences .
Speaker 2Yeah , if we don't , if we don't take care of ourselves , it's going to be near impossible to take care of our clock , yeah , uh . And then , like , even at a bigger level , it's going to be near impossible to take care of our clock , and then , even at a bigger level , it's going to be really impossible to take care of each other in the field . It's a cycle .
Speaker 1Yeah , I love it . Okay , man , we have maybe 10 minutes left . Do you want to say some closing thoughts ?
Closing Thoughts and Final Reflections
Speaker 2Yeah , I do . Man laughs um , do you want to say some closing thoughts ? Um , yeah , I do , man like I . So this might be like super cheesy , but man , I , my brother , flew in last night at like what , like 10 , 50 or something , you know . Like , uh , after teaching class , yeah , and my , my kids cried to go to sleep because they knew uncle june was coming in town , you know . And so I , you know , I got , I got three kids , one on the way , and it was just like a tear fest when uncle june , like you know , when they they knew I gotta go to sleep . So I'm gonna mess up with you .
Speaker 2I usually comes like second dad , yeah , yeah , yeah . So , like you know , for for me it it's , it's interesting how much you know , even though we spent the majority of our life together . You know like there's usually this like distance that happens when , like we , you know , we're like changing diapers and you know , like you know , doing the bidding of our spouses , you know , and all this stuff . But , man , I genuinely cherish like moments like this when we get to like spend time together . You know , like y'all don't all , because I'm gonna start crying again , like even when , even if we're in the golden nugget here in lake charles . Yeah , so I always knew the golden nugget . Yeah , all right . Yeah , you would profess your love .
Speaker 2Yeah , we , we , my , my dad is here . He said he'd be here , but he's probably out in the slots . He's never come to any of our stuff before . He's never come . He was like where you guys doing at the Golden Nugget ? I'm there , baby , I'm there On the way I'm there . Let me get my fishing pole . Oh , dad , you're really coming , okay , cool , I'm going to be sitting in the back . Dad , you're really coming , okay cool . Yeah , I'm going to be sitting in the back , though boys in the backpack Close to the door . Dad , are you here ? No , yeah , so you know , that's my closing remark . Man , it's such an honor and a privilege to like spend this time , because I know , you know you flew and your kids are crying too and your wife is over there by herself taking care of the kids . You , you know , so like , I really appreciate you coming down . Yeah , man , all right , now that was my turn . Hey , what you gotta say ? Come on , yeah , butter me up like a biscuit . Butter me up , but I love you , yeah , yeah , me too .
Speaker 1We do this a lot . We get a chance to like , you know , we get a chance to talk . We'll be talking again at ACA . And where's ACA this year ? In Florida , in Florida , in Florida . So we'll be doing a couple of presentations there and some book signings there as well , and we have a new book coming out soon . We're writing it right now , so we don't know when it's coming out . Do ?
Speaker 2you want to say the title .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think we can . We're going to call it the business of counseling . It's going to be , I know it's going to be the business class we wish we had .
Speaker 2We've all heard it like oh , you're going to be a counselor , Well , there's no money in that there is , and it's just sitting in my checking account .
Speaker 1It could just be sitting in your checking account , no ? So we really enjoy doing this stuff and we appreciate the questions . We'll be outside I think there's a black table out there straight in the back . So come out , we'll sign some books , take some pictures , answer some outside . I think there's a black table out there straight in the back . So come out , we'll sign some books , take some pictures , answer some questions . Vicky may have to say something and I think Vicky is going to close us out with something . But seriously , I appreciate you . Thank you , guys for letting us be ourselves . Yeah , we look forward to seeing you out there .
Speaker 2Let me turn this mic off . The last time I had a mic like this , I got married and I didn't know it was hot . Let me just turn it off before I start talking trash about my faculty . Hold on .
Speaker 1Turn it off .
Speaker 2So I want to let you know I appreciate that . Yep , bye , bye .
