Supervisors Who Grow vs. Supervisors Who Manage

A hike-time call from Pop-Pop, a birthday cookie “failure” that turns into a win, and a catastrophic Lego implosion set the stage for a conversation clinicians rarely hear plainly: some supervisors grow you, and some supervise to manage risk—and the difference matters. We trade stories that are funny and a little painful, then map them onto the realities of clinical training: reflective supervision vs documentation-first oversight, what “stagnant” or oversaturated supervision looks like, and why expecting growth from a role built for compliance can leave you feeling unseen.

We break down the two lanes with compassion. Managers keep clinics safe—billing straight, notes clean, risk low. Growers get into the weeds—countertransference, values, person-of-the-therapist, and how your history shows up in the room. The best supervisors flex between both, but many settings reward one side. That mismatch isn’t always incompetence; it’s incentive and identity. If you’re a supervisee stuck in a manager-heavy site, we offer scripts to name your need without burning bridges, ways to split the lanes (do compliance there, find growth elsewhere), and how to sit with “sucky” sites while learning what you’ll never emulate. If you supervise, we invite you to self-scan for oversaturation, explain your choices to model thinking, and shift from “try my way” to “find your way.”

Under the humor is a simple promise: you can get the support you need by being specific about the support you need. Bring your notes ready, ask for 15 minutes of reflective work, build a consult circle, and protect your professional reputation while your clinical voice emerges. If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a colleague who’s navigating supervision, and leave a quick review telling us what kind of supervision helps you grow.

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Transcript

Pop-Pop’s Call From The Trail

SPEAKER_01 0:17

I got it, and I'll tell Brother Julius about it. Okay.

unknown 0:20

You have a good day.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

You too, Jerry.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

I'll do it.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Okay. Bye. Yeah, man. Good old Pop Pop, bruh. Good old Pop Pop made a little made a little visit to the cast. Good old Pop Pop, man.

Family Banter And Conference Memories

SPEAKER_01 0:40

That was the one and only Gerald Corey. Yeah, who called and just, you know, he's he takes his morning hikes. He takes his morning hikes. Where is he hiking at? San Bernardino? San Bernardino Valley? I think so. I think so. He usually hikes the Ernie Maxwell. Ernie Maxwell. Ernie Maxwell. Something like that. Yeah, man. So he he'll call. He'll just make his little rounds of calls when he's hiking, you know. Yeah, he has a little booklet of names and numbers that he makes sure to call and check in with, man, while he's on his while he's on his wall. He gets more frustrated with me because my email keeps changing because I keep hopping universities. Yeah, and just just for the ULM. Just for the just for the listeners. Don't make him unhappy or he'll need to. I already let him know. I'm not looking if his coffee is not hot enough, he's gone. No, listen, now listen, he does this thing, right? Listen, he does his thing, listener. Well, where he gets a job, and then that ball can't get out of the swag shot. He can't. He can't. He loves a mug. He loves a swag. He loves a mug. He loves a little overpriced. I overindulge at a university uh bookstore. Bruh, you go hard on that bookstore, man. You be like, and and uh did you know, did you know that our mascot, he's the oldest mascot in the history of universities. And um, did you know the bricks on campus? Uh yeah, man, you be how I sound how I sound GT?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

That's how you sound like you go. Um, did you know we have our own business and uh we have our own, and then we have our own clinic, and the clinic is free. Um and and did you know we have our own buildings?

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yeah, bruh, I'd be like, I got I got one thing to say to that, one thing to say to that. Uh bruh, go cajuns. That's what I got to say. Uh anyway, man, yeah, Jerry Call. So what so what he was talking about, bruh, was he said, uh, he goes, uh how did he start it? Oh, he was like, he was like, is your class still going good? I was like, yeah, still going good. He was like, You're still teaching theories. I was like, Yeah, I love it, you know. And he was like, Yeah, I've been reading a lot of uh Vyalam. He was like, I gotta stop doing that. I gotta stop reading Irv's work. Yeah, bruh. He was like, Uncle Irv, bro. Uncle Irv is sending you into a deep dark pit. And so he said, he was like, Yeah, you know, Irv, he's 94, and uh, I'm not I'm not too far behind him. He's 94 years old, and I called to checkup on him, and he just got married. Irv got married. He got married two years ago. Well, we should call him. We should call him on the cast. We should call him on the cast and say Uncle Irv. I heard. Oh man. Yeah, he said he got married two years ago. So anyway, so Jerry, I so I was telling him I was like, Where did you get married to? I don't know. I think I do a German German therapist psychotherapy. Really? I think that's what Jerry said, yeah. But uh but anyway, yeah, he uh I was like Jerry, you gotta start reading Existential at this age. I was like, Jerry, at a certain age, you you you gotta you gotta go to go read Bob Wolpading's work. And Bob wrote some good stuff. If you want like I mean uh keep it light, keep it light, bodies like a Baptist preacher. Uh just keep it light. When he's in comedy. You remember that one conference we did where we were on that panel with him and he was talking the Holy Spirit took over. I don't know what happened, but it was like ding ding, man. Stop. Hey, cut it out, Bob, and he you know, afterwards, he's like, Did I was that too was that too long? It's like get off. You know what, you know what it was good stuff, but it was Bob Bob uh at the at one conference. Uh man, this is one of the most significant things that happened to me uh at one of those conferences where he was getting off the stage. I know, man. I signed your book. Huh? I know. You significant things that I signed memory because we got our first book, and then you were like, you were like, Big Brother Jude, please, big big brother Jew, can you please sign my book? I want my first book that we wrote together to be signed by my hero. And I said, Come on, man, give me the book, man. Yeah, I'll sign it for you. What's your name? I don't know if this is like an appropriate time to come out with this, but uh mama said that I have to keep doing stuff like that to you because that's the only way that um you're gonna be happy. That's interesting. She said the same thing. She said, just make sure you make sure you make sure you let your make sure you let your brother sign your first book because you know his entry's gonna be because she said the same thing. I don't want I don't want him to feel left out when nobody's, you know. Oh, okay. Nobody's in his line. Anyway, anyway, man. Anyway, anyway, anyway. No, no, Bob, yeah, Bob just said, you know, we ran up we were on the panel for uh what's that uh that thing that we always do with Jerry? You you're gonna be able to do it. Oh, I think I know what you got. I think I know what you're about to say, yeah. Yeah, we were like when ACA was accepting it. Yeah When ACA was accepting a proposal. He was just like, you know, you guys are the future of counseling, you know. And I remember I remember thinking, like, oh, I don't know. Actually, I don't know what I'm doing. Uh I disagree. Yeah, I I disagree. I disagree. I just want to write books and grow my body's plans. Uh as well, actually. My anxiety is so high right now, I just want to go in my room. Uh man. Nah, bruh. Uh yeah, pop pop called, man. Anyway, all right. Yeah, so um, so so yeah. So he called he calls me, I don't know, man, like what like every other week or so, just check in because you don't answer the phone. Yeah, I don't, yeah. He calls, man, but every time I every time he calls, I'm like knee deep in diapers or something, you know. Uh he always calls, how the bambinos do how the bambinos. You still use diapers? Yeah. Actually, yeah, because because Kofi pisses pisses on himself. Like every month, once a month, he'll just like piss on himself. Like grown. Yeah, not like a little cute, three-year-old pee-pee, like a little tinkle, think, tink, tink, tink, tink. Oh no. We gotta change your shirts. Oh no. Nah, this is like this is like he we gotta call Stanley Steamer to come in, like and they don't they don't even they don't even sponsor the cast, but I'm gonna throw him a little shot out. We gotta call Surf Pro. We gotta get the professionals to come in here. No deep clean. Oh, he pisses down to the to the to the bedrock. Like, yeah. What did you drop? Touching corners don't you drink, bruh. It's just in this room drinking it. Jesus. That's so yeasty in here. Jesus. All right, man.

Re-recording Confession And Reset

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yo, welcome, welcome back to the cast, man. Listen, now, listen. We we did pre-record this cast, all right. We had a recording of this cast before. Yeah, man, get off of our bat. Listen. Listen. G is messed up. I didn't mess up. Okay. He messed up. I didn't mess up, man. Just he's still in denial. I didn't mess up, man. It was just one of those casts where I was like, did we ever get to a point? Nah, don't think we did. I think we were just so tired and delirious, man. We were just talking forever. Yeah, so we were like So today is gonna be different. We're 20 minutes in and pop pop call. Nah, man, nah. Let's do like a little, let's do a little check-in and then uh and then we'll jump into the topic. Because I think we got we got a good like 30 minutes for a topic. Check-in, yeah.

Weekly Failures: Burnt Cookies, Big Feelings

SPEAKER_01 9:11

So I wanted to ask you a question through the check-in, bro. Um how how it's so it's Monday. Monday, right. So think about last year, right? How how have you failed last week? Failed? Failed. Like like like as a professor or as a as a father or just in your everyday failure. Everyday failure. Yeah.

unknown 9:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Everyday riddle with it. So it'd be hard to pick one out. I can tell if you don't have one, I can tell you. I mean, there's just so there's just so many. It's just so many failures, man. Uh seriously, so many failures. Like it's not anything catastrophic. Uh, but you know how I failed? Uh this is like super i it's a it's a failure and a win. All right. Failure is Thank God. It was bro, it was Ko's birthday. Uh it was his third birthday. And we like me and Roby baked him a cake. All right. So we're gonna You bake? I bake, bro. I love bacon. Love bacon. Uh huh. But I use this, I I don't normally use this pan, and I don't normally use this like cooking spray. I don't like using cooking, like nonstick cooking spray, you know? I was like, whatever, I'll try it. I put the spray on the pan and I put the cookies on the thing, and it's like the the the spray burned, and it burnt the bottom of the cookies, you know, and and I was looking at the cookies baked, like they're not baked, but the bottom's burnt. You know, like it's it's not even close to being done, but the bottom is burnt, you know. I baked all these cookies, man, and I was like, oh my god, like they're gonna, you know, I wasted cookies, wasted money, like they're gonna hate the cookies, you know, whatever. And that's why I put the cookies out, I was like, let me let them cool, you know, and I let them cool, and as I was as they were cooling, I was baking the cake, I put the cake out, and the cake was perfect. I'm talking moist, perfect chocolate bun cake, bruh. Um and so I went like as I was as I was letting the cookies cool, Cove had walked by the the cookies and he grabbed one. He grabbed one and he bit into it, and he was like, This is perfect. They're like crunchy, and I love crunchy cookies, and I was like, Really, dude? He's like, Yeah, these are perfect. I was like, Okay, like alright, and Cairo grabbed a cookie and he was like, Yeah, this was perfect. Like, I love the crunchiness of the cookie, like I love a cookie with a crunch on it, and so they weren't burnt, they were just harder than normal, you know. Good thing. Seriously, man, I was like, I I we only have one cake, and we only got one pack of cookies. So were you so so you were you really stressed about that? Stressed about it, bruh. Why why? Like, what about it as well? You know that's why because like dog, uh so I'm the cooker in the family, right? Like I cook the cooker. You're the cooker. I cook all the meals, you know. You're the cooker. Is that what you just said? I'm the cooker. Yeah. I cook stuff. I'm the cooker, dog. Well, I don't I don't understand why you're laughing at me. I don't come here to be I didn't come here to be ashamed or laughed at. I don't I don't think anybody says cooker. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Oh, all right.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

This is this is this is what type of day we haven't. Okay. Alright, so we're having one of those days where you attack me, where I'm getting attacked. That's the type of that's the type of day we're having. Huh? Cook. No, no, no, no, no, no, G no, no, because no, because you woke up and and you came on the cast, and now now you're making me feel like I'm an idiot. No, man, you just said nobody says cooker, bro. People say like I cook. No, because no, I don't like your tone. That's what I don't like. I don't like people say, people listen, J. People say I cook, I'm the one that cooks in the house. Nobody ever says I'm the cooker. You know what it sounds like when you say I'm the cooker? No, no, you know what it sounds like, Eisenhower? You know what it sounds like when you say Eisenberg? You know what it sounds like when you say I'm the it sounds like you're talking about meth, man. Yeah, no, I'm just I don't understand. I don't uh can I just get through my story? Huh? Sure. No, I mean, it it's really yeah, it stressed it stressed me out because I'm the person who cooks. Is that better? Is that how you like it? That's better, man. Is that better for me? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, because I had half a mind, like Daddy say, I had half a mind to hit the red button. I record this, I record this cast myself. But I was gonna red button me. Anyway, nah, man, bro, like it's yeah, come to think of it, my red button is is is uh grayed out. I don't have the power to leave. Yeah, I have the power. Anyway, man, nah, it's serious, man. I I uh man, cook cooking is we we live such a busy life, you know, to where the man the kids are like super picky and we're trying to get them out of their box and like try new things and everything that I've cooked and they've tried that was like that they thought, oh, I wouldn't like it, they loved, you know. And so when I cook, I really love uh like I love how I look at the kids' faces, you know, and you know, and like the smile on their face when they're like, yo, this is good. Like, thank you. And the kids are like, Daddy, thank you, you know. Uh yeah, like your kids say thank you. Thank you, man. Like seriously, thank you. Like this is good. Like, thank you. Like, can we or like when they say like uh daddy, can we have this tonight? No, can we eat this tonight? You know, because I love that. Yeah, like they have the favorite that you could but do you like internalize it when you know you fail? No. You know when you have not you know, like is it something that you're like, oh man, like I failed then. No, I'm a bad person. No, not that. It's more or less like, man, it's Cope's birthday, you know, like we only have this one. Yeah, you want it to be special for sure. I just want to get the cookies right. You know, I just want to get the cookies right, I just want to get the cake right, you know. Uh I I don't I you know, like it's not, you know, like if I burn the cookies, I'll just go get some more cookies, you know. But still, at the same time, it's like we got a lot of stuff going on. There's like his friends are here, Kyro's friends are here, you know, there's a lot of stuff moving around. I just want to get the cookies right. Yeah, bro. And you know, uh yeah, I just you know, it's one of those things where I'm just like, I just want the cookies to be good for because he loves cookies, you know. So uh yeah, bro. That stuff is important to me, man. Like like uh making good food, you know, for the kids. Uh especially the snacks, you know. So Yeah, I mean making meals that they that when, you know, like they're at soccer practice or something, they come home and they walk in the house and they're just you know That's the bad change it changes your whole it you could lose 6-0, but if you come in the house and you smell you know, you smell like you know, I don't know, dirty rice cooking or roast jambalaya roast or not. Yeah, that you've been smoking. Yeah, that was on yeah, for hours, you know. You know when you know when you uh By the way, you cook chicken, you know, like you put it on in the morning and then by the evening that chicken is done. The way you cook it, you know. I don't understand. That sounded like an underhand. No, because you I'm I just know that you make jerky, so yeah. No, you call I mean you call it baked chicken. I just I just opened up about how how much it means to me to make make sure the food is good for my children, and now I'm getting you know the rules. You know the rules, vulnerability gets taken advantage of. That's I didn't sign up for this though. What are you talking about? That's a family rule. That's why are you acting all surprised in my moment of vulnerability? I don't understand, yeah, but we have company. We have company listening to this. We have I thought I thought welcome to the family. I thought the rule that superseded that rule was we don't hurt each other in front of company just to make them think that we're good. Oh no, let me look around. I don't see nobody. The company is they're listening. They're they're listening right now. No more nobody listening to this, bro. It's just we I thought I thought the rule was we hurt each other behind closed doors. I thought that was the that was that's the family rule. Yeah. Yeah. Nah man, but yeah, yeah, yeah. So birthday party went well, bro. He got y'all got him a Liverpool jersey. You know, he's worn that Liverpool jersey for four days straight. No, no, no. He's worn it for four days straight. Like we have to wash it when he when we peel it off his body at night. Yeah, bruh. And then wash the whole kit. I'm talking jersey, shorts, and socks.

unknown 18:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

So he can wear it the next day. Yeah, it don't make no sense, bro. Don't make no sense. Yeah, man. Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, anyway, man. What's your check-in, man? What what uh what what's what's the what's the failures that uh Oh bruh,

Lego Meltdown And Repair Attempts

SPEAKER_01 18:42

nah man. I was just the reason I was thinking was because man, bruh, do your do your kids play with Legos? No, man, my kids don't play with Legos. Huh? No, my kids go outside, they have friends. No, no, no, no, no. No, my my kids are popular.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

That's that my kids are Mr.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Cooker. Uh no, man. So so so um so they have uh like some friends gave them some Legos, right? And actually the neighbor flag, but okay, yeah, go ahead. No, so our neighbor, man, super nice man, and uh and when we like when the kids go over to play or when they're playing around or something, like she'll have them, she'll buy them Lego sets, you know. And so they came in, put all this stuff together, and so my kids they made this like Keen and Valor made this like mongoloid type, you know, uh off-road uh tr all-terrain vehicle with like a bunch of different Lego pieces from like, you know, whatever. And so they're you know, long story short, they were Keen had made it and he was and it was on the sofa, you know, and Valin just went by to like check it out. Right. And so I cut off the fight before it started. You know, I was like, hey, I was like, hey man, Keen, he's looking at the thing, he's not gonna mess it up, just let him play. You know? And then V Valin heard me say that, and so obviously, because he's the middle kid, started to mess up stuff. Yeah, right. And so the whole thing wouldn't grow if I pulled this Lego off, right? Right. Right, right. Does this man need this arm? You know, like that kind of stuff. Side note, I gotta tell the listener about this brain rot catastrophe that happened in my family. Right. Hold on, let me finish the story. Let me finish the story because it's gonna be my failure, right? So, so anyway, and I mean they they they it took them like two days to build this thing. They they were pulling pieces. Yeah, we're talking Iron Man type, first suit type type stuff. Sweating dungeons. Sweating, bruh, like I mean, kind of an engineer Marvel like road and everything. So anyway, so they man, so they so Keen comes around the corner, and I was like, Keenan, if y'all fight about this thing, I'm gonna take it away. Yeah, you know, and you know, Keen goes, we're not gonna fight. Right? So Keen goes, they have a little discussion, Valin pushes him, Keen pushes him back, Keen takes the thing, runs around the house, Valin's chasing him. Right? I mean, chasing him. Which is like uh the ingredients of uh of a crash out. Yeah, bro, it's about to crash out, and so Kean's running around the table now, you know, extra loop. Valin's picking up things on the way and chucking them at Kean. Everything almost picked up the cat, bruh. I mean, it was just like he was throwing stuff. So I stop him and I was like, Keenan, give me the thing. You know, and he was like, No, you know, and I was like, Keenan, I gotta have it, man. I told you guys if you fought, I was gonna take it away. You know, so he was like, No, so I you know, go to take the thing away, dog. I took this thing away, and the whole thing disintegrated in my hands.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Right. When I tell you, dog, I mean, they they did not make it structurally sound first off. I'm not gonna say uh what I did listener, you see you see how he does it. Something to do with how he does this? You see, you see the lack of accountability, you know, and I was trying to be gentle, but I'm trying to keep them both awake. Can you hear the undercurrent of it's not my fault? This has been going on my whole life. Listen, it's not that it's it's not that it's not my fault. Listen, he tried to choke me in the womb and got out talking about I didn't know what I was doing. I I I was barely even born. I I I didn't know what I distinctly remember hearing in the womb.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Go to sleep. Sleep, go to sleep.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

There could only be one. There could only be one of us. I remember hearing that in the womb. Nah, bruh. I'm talking pieces exploded, bro. They both backed away and looked at me. Bruh, you would have sworn I like hit them both in the face.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Like they, bruh, the way that they looked at me. But the way that they looked at me was like, how could you? You're a therapist. Like what? You're my father. But I just felt terrible, man. And I was like, I didn't, I did not mean to, I did not mean for this to happen.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

He's like, yes, you did.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Now it comes out. Now it comes out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

You said you didn't want us to play with that. That's not what I said. That's not what I said. And King was like, you wanted to break it from the side. I was like, hold on. Just hold up. That's not true. Now they're incoming. Now they're looking in this. Like, right, right. Didn't he say that? Didn't he say he had legs? I want mommy.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Bruh, man. I was like, ah man, bruh. So I said I said, listen, why don't we take a chill pill? A chill pill. Why don't we sit a chill pill? Yeah, why don't we sit down? A chill pill that you've been harboring like a Sensu bean from the 1900s. Yeah, bruh. I was like, why don't we sit down and just take a chill pill? You know, like listen, things got out of hand. You know, I was trying to keep you guys from fighting. Obviously, the structure and integrity of this vehicle was doomed for the lack of accountability, but all right. So first off, when we rebuild this thing, we gotta talk about engineering and mechanics. But but but until then, why don't we try not to fight? You know? And so we sat him down, bruh. I'm looking up, I'm looking up schematics. Schematics, bruh. It's ridiculous, man. So we got over it. Ended up rebuilding it, uh, trying to rebuild it. Bruh. I felt horrible. Did y'all rebuild it? I mean, I actually it was never the same. And you know, and I try and I and I tried to like get them to like get into it, you know. I was like, well, look, we got the whole thing. No, I know. Forget about the fact that I destroyed your No, forget about it. I was like, it's you it's gonna be more meaningful now because we're gonna do it all together. We're gonna do it together. And Keen looked at me and was like, it'll never be the same. I was like, okay. Uh so where do y'all want me to put the tires?

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Okay, yeah, dog, bro. You would swear he was reading nerve.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Like I don't understand what the point of meeting is anymore when things can just be broken so easily.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Broken so easily.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

When the things I love can be treated so cavalier. When the people you love betray you, when they look into your eyes and betray you.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Charles Bukowski.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

I mean, what's the point of rebuilding things when the people that love you or say they love you can just dash him to the side so easily. You see some Edgar Allen pull books under his bed. You start to say I knew the world was benignly and different to human suffering, and here's the example. Boy, boy, man. Bruh, seriously. Like he he has not, he had even when I rebuilt it, he was just like, that looks nice. Yeah, that's nice. All right, man. Yeah, that's nice. Alright, bruh. Alright, yeah, thanks. You know when you know you know a kid is fed up when you hear. You know a kid is like, they had enough, dog. When you're like, here, I I I know it's not the same, but I did put a supercharger in it, and they're like, all right. Yeah, bruh. Now it flies. No, it could, it could, it could it could fly you to school. Like, all right, but but it's like daddy, you did you did you try, you did your little thing. Yeah, but you know. It was bad. Sad. It was sad. Yeah, man, so we're just a bunch of failures. You know, that's that's that's that's what we are, you know. That's what we are, bruh. Alright, man. We got a couple minutes, bruh. You want to jump into the topic, cuz uh I felt like we got a

Defining Stagnant Supervisors

SPEAKER_01 27:52

we got a good one. You think we're gonna have time or I think so.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Yeah. Alright.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Yeah, got a meeting at 12. But a meeting at 12? All right. Well, uh, bruh, this one, this one is about the I don't even know what to call them, but they're like the supervisors who are stagnant. Alright? Stagnant supervisors? Stagnant supervisors, and this is what I mean by by stagnant supervisors. So so you know, some some people come by their OPCS with uh years of experience. Right? And well most people everybody comes by their LPCS with years of experience, you know. Now some people have years of experience in the clinical field, and some people have years of experience in the clinical field, and they also have a doctorate, right, in counselor education and supervision. So you have some LPCS who are clinicians, and some LPCS who are clinicians and counselor educators. Right? And it's one is not better than the other, right? It's just that some people who come from a doc program where they had to learn supervision theory, where they had to learn uh, you know, the philosophy of supervision, they have a little bit more of an education on like what supervision looks like, right? Like specifically reflective supervision, you know. And then you have other clinicians who, you know, they've been working in an agency for years, you know, and eventually they're like, okay, I like I'd be I'm the longest tenured clinician here. You know, they get like a leadership role, right? They don't really want to educate clinicians, like they don't want to educate. But like they're the one with the most experience, so they have an LPCS. So then they're like, okay. And they're keeping the business, they're keeping the clinic flowing. That's their job. Their job is to like make sure we get paid, make sure that the clients pay, make sure that the documents are there, make sure we don't get sued, you know, keep town gown relationships going with like. community and the clinic, you know, like great they're doing great work, right? Yeah, absolutely. But there's there's a difference between a supervisor who is there to grow you. Grow there to grow you. Grow the supervisee. Yeah. And there's and

Managers vs. Growers In Supervision

SPEAKER_01 30:20

and a supervisor who is there to make sure that there's no like fires in the clinic. You know? To manage. Like like it's two like it's two two types of relationships, right? One is to grow, one is to manage. And and the best the best supervisors in my opinion can do both. They can grow and manage. Absolutely. They can know when like their management role needs to supersede their growth role, you know, they can they can understand that stuff. And usually that comes with like years of practice but also like years of education. You know? Yeah. What I find is that some of my supervisees they have the most discrepancies or the most issues with supervisors who are more managers than growers. You know? Because the managers are like, yeah, I'm not trying to hear I'm not trying to hear this client reminds you of your dad. Yeah I I'm not trying to help you work through what's going on within your relationship with this client. Like did you do the treatment plan yet? And and did you submit the the the the sound let me see your notes like do you do did the client come in at the for the full 50 minutes or not? You know? Like you can like I know you just talk to the client for 30 minutes over the phone and I know that your heart is saying we shouldn't bill but this is a business and we can't just not build you know and so they don't even want to hear what happened over the phone for 30 minutes and like how that's going to affect your relationship with like the couple or the family. They don't want to hear that stuff. They want to make sure you document it properly you know and and some students are like left with the butt what about my clinical experience? You know and that there's this like empty feeling you know of like where can I get that from you know and so for some of my supervisees some of my clinical supervisees they have me as a supervisor who gives them that like growth perspective and well you know I mean you know take take take take it or leave it. You know take it or leave it man. That's not what I heard. Take it or leave it. Uh and then then they have their site supervisor you know who gives them the is your documents right or is your you know uh treatment plan good or whatever, you know? Yeah.

unknown 32:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

But then and this is kind of something that I want you to share about. Like do you ever find that some of the the more management supervisors are a little like oversaturated in their clinical experience? Does does that make sense? Um no nothing you say ever makes sense to me but uh if I were to decipher that um gibberish you just finished spouting off I would say I just don't know why you're intent on hurting me today. You know what you mean? I'm just being honest. I don't know can you not make space for my honesty? I don't I don't think I can I I don't think can you not make space? Can you not hold the room? Can you not hold space? No I don't know you know can you not can you not sit with the with the silent can you not accept my refusal to hold the space for you well I am accepting it and also offering unconditional positive regard which I'm not receiving I think what I need right now is to create a boundary between the space that you're I respect that boundary but can it be diffuse? Does it have to be so rich I have to because I I feel unsafe with a with a diffuse boundary. But who's responsible for that unsafety right now? Is it you or is it is it I mean if I was to take 100% accountability it would be me. Yeah and I and I but I have trouble taking accountability because of my past so I'm gonna default to to you being the perpetrator of the boundary being crossed okay so I accept the perpetration I accept it uh I'm I I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna sit with it I've sat with it and now I'm going to reflect it back to you. Uh I in in fact I'm going to make a process reflection um towards you using immediacy. So if you could just take that immediate process reflection that I've offered from unconditional positive regard with the genuineness and authenticity I think you can self-actualize the actual space that I'm trying to create here which is one of honesty when I say I don't understand anything you're saying. I know I I hear what you're saying and in an attempt to raise a mirror what there is no because that's what I do here I I have two things in my office and it's a mirror and a sounding board and you know those therapists that be having the mirror behind the door behind the door close the door cloak cloak can you close the door stop if you go to the twist therapist.com you can find uh our branded mirror but money we would do and our branded sounding off of a off off of a a reflective out here that wants to get our merch shop going with the stuff that we say in here please reach out to us because we don't know what we're doing. Anyway man okay okay okay what was I talking about man oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so okay so saturation right to me this means like yeah you got some supervisors who've been in the game a while right who who've been in a a very particular type of game right without without calling out anybody you know at all burnings from the tree of life counseling center tree of life that's all you gotta say is something with like a tree or a plant and treating some other circular tree you know that's all you guys yeah uh bushel and barrel uh uh yeah man orchard counseling yeah orchard counseling yeah yeah willow spike you know uh uh willow wick yeah weeping willow sunflower growth therapy you got a sunflower all of it all of it all of it all of it but anyway anyway not to call it so like somebody at the VA okay right VA you've been in the VA for a long time right I wouldn't even say the VA think of somebody like MHM or University Counseling Center University Counseling Center yeah you know what I mean like look there is a and and and you can even be in private practice private like solo private practice you know for like decades you know and the thing is is that nothing's wrong with those places.

Oversaturation And Limited Adaptability

SPEAKER_01 37:41

Like in I mean we know plenty of uh supervisors at the VE that do good supervision you know pl plenty of people at University Counseling Center but there are some supervisors out there that are so saturated in that game that one area you know what I mean so that so then when you're a student and then you've got an internship site and you're used to working with your faculty who they understand a different supervision theory they come from different perspectives and backgrounds and stuff you know then you go work at a very focused clinic where you have a really good supervisor who does the work that they're doing really good it there's a little dissonance you know because that person is so saturated you know it has nothing to do with skill it has more to do to me with like adaptability it's like they have blinders on sometimes the way that we do things here this is the way that we've always done things here and this is like what we should we should focus on this you know or like you know an issue comes up in the student's clinical work that is very similar or close to a lived experience that the supervisor has and they go right into kind of the old time feeling our old time way of tune supervision. Yeah you know what I mean and there's nothing wrong with that I think it's just students need to know this is what you're getting into. I th that's the biggest thing that I want people who listen to this cast to take away is that like man there's a difference between you know growers and managers you know and sometimes supervisees their frustration comes from the fact that their supervisor is a manager. When they want to when they're like in the process of but there's vice that's vice versa because I have supervisees now who like when they're in supervision with somebody who's like pushing them to grow they're like dog I don't need this what I need you to do is look at my notes and make sure look at my notes make sure that I'm ethical make sure that I'm doing you know what I mean it's just like a mi a mismatch and lack of communication. It would be nice if students said I'm I need growth right now. You know like I need I need growth right now. I need you to I need you to do some psychotherapy esque type supervision. Because some stuff is coming up with my clients that is influencing my relationship with them and I can't tell the difference between the two. I need you to tell me that part of your experience I don't what I don't need you to do is to like make sure that like my paperwork is good. Like Yeah art are to say things like you know hey just make sure when you go in there because you already have this you know transference that you don't go in there and do something unethical. You know like you know what I mean where it's like well yeah but like can you not process through what's going on for the and y there's points where you can go, hey, this would be a good thing to talk to your therapist about you know obviously I think some of the worst supervisors though are the supervisors where they're so oversaturated to where they can't see that their supervisee needs help in the growth area. You know? And so they just like they're very dogmatic about like yeah people I don't I don't or I don't really want to hear and and also in a reverse perspective they also don't want to hear anything about themselves. You know like you have some of these supervisors man and the listener knows what I'm talking about where every clinician is like I don't feel safe around this person. Like I can't share who I am they they don't have they don't make any space for me. Nobody likes you here like nobody likes you here. You know but they but because of the power that the supervisor has it nobody can they don't say anything. Nobody says anything and because the supervisor is a a manager right and is not self-reflective they just think what they're doing is good. It's fine. It's fine. You know nobody's complaining but there's there's no like self-reflection yeah but you said exactly what I was gonna say man. Yeah you know yeah yep yeah anyway anyway. So what do they do? What do they do first you know before we end this what's your suggestion? My suggestion is that they they meet with their supervisor so like they meet with their site supervisor. Well one you see what you like from your professors you know like the things you like the things you appreciate you know and you try to find those parts of your professors in external site supervisors you know when you go out there into the site you have to kind of discern is this person going to help me grow or is this person just going to manage? You know?

What Supervisees Can Do Next

SPEAKER_01 42:40

And if the person is just going to manage and you know that you need that site for hours, like this is literally a stepping stone for you to get your clinical hours, right? Then a lot of the frustration that you're gonna feel is from the fact that the supervisor isn't doing what you need. Accept in totality who that supervisor is and appreciate that supervisor for being the manager that they are and go out and find you somebody that's gonna help you grow. Yeah go out and find somebody whether that's a f whether it's a faculty member, whether that's a a colleague or a colleague another somebody to process cases with sometimes it'll be a clinician in the clinic who maybe has a little bit more experience but it's not in a leadership role who you can go to and consult with about cases. You know? Yeah right um and and you just and you you find the people that's gonna help you grow and you accept the people that are managers you know and you don't try to change either one. You know I think that man that that is such a frustration like a sore spot for some students man. Yeah. That's a sore spot for some students. And and also if you can't if you can't do either like if you can't find somebody to help you grow and you can't and the the manager is oversaturated then like man figure out is this the site that I'm gonna get my primary clinical experience from and if it is then like sometimes because of the vulnerability of students and practical an internship sometimes you just got to sit in the suckiness of the situation. And learn sometimes and learn this is not how I want how I want you to be kind and be professional and and and know that like how you respond here is going to influence your future job perspectives. Like not maybe not that the agency but also be like be like vigilant with how you watch people you know like oh but these are the types of personalities I never want to work with. Yeah bruh. These are the people I never want to work on you got anything no man I think you said it all yeah that is not fussing. I'm just saying that is not fussing like I'm just saying sometimes you gotta sit in the suckiness of your situation. Yeah bruh and you know I'll say this man I'll say this like it's it's you know when you graduate and you can pick your supervisor just if if you graduate you know or if you have graduated and you're in supervision with somebody like that you know um like if you're out like not every not every clinician makes a good supervisor. I think we talked about this but not every and I think some and I think some students myself included will sometimes see the S at the end of somebody's license and and kind of assume that like ooh this person's got the S They got the S They must ooh yep they must be cr you know and I you know the S the S means time more than quality not quality like every supervisor is bad. I'm just saying like find the supervisor that fits best for you. Yeah you know or or realize that that supervisor doesn't fit and you can't move you can't leave the situation. And you can't do anything so you just you gotta sit in it. Gotta get the minds you know we've been there we've been there sitting across sitting across the table from somebody you know ain't got no good no good business being somebody's supervisor you ever set across from a supervisor is just like oh you really don't you really don't know what you're doing huh? Yeah or like or you go man your perspective is so limited. Yeah bro that is you know it's so limited and that's fine that's fine you know that's fine well he ever if somebody ever told me your perspective is limited I would be like ah yeah see because I'm genuinely more like you know I feel like open at that kind of stuff I'm dying what is happening over there are you okay because I'm not okay that's all them that's all them taquitos you sneak up taquetos that's not that's all them breakfast tacos you sneak in on the way to the office all you got is is is breakfast sausage in your throat just nah man left over Alocis on the way nah man nah nah nah what was I saying yeah because I feel like I'm genuinely open to feedback like that you know you know what I mean like you know I'm like okay like tell me how this truth tell me how this thing is like you know a thing for you you know but I feel like I'm really good at going like ah that just doesn't fit for me. Yeah but it you know like it doesn't fit from my perspective of myself but I can understand how you see that. As a supervisor for sure but as a as a supervisee it is hard to go to your supervisor it's it's it's almost impossible to be like terrifying your perspective is limiting and what you say doesn't really fit for me. Terrifying but I do appreciate the fact that you're but you know what like have you I mean you know we we don't have time for it but it when somebody does say stuff like that you know what I mean like when somebody does say stuff like you know um you know I'm trying to think I'm trying to think if a supervisee has ever said something to me. Well I mean what my supervisees say all the time is like okay like I hear what you're saying Dr. Austin but also that's not me. Like I I gotta find to find my own voice. You know I love when supervisees say it. Exactly I'm not telling they in there and say it the way I'm saying it do my thing. I'm saying I'm saying this. This is how I would say it let's hope that maybe it inspires you to or gives you a perspective on like how you would do it differently. Exactly go in there and do how you want to do it you know how you want to do it. Then there's some supervisees that's like so go in there and tell them that do this. Yeah. Yeah yeah no yeah there's times where I do have to stop myself from telling supervisees like hey you know what you should do you know it's like I forget because I kind of think like you you know what I would do you know and then I I see my supervisees kind of receive that as I should do this. Yeah you know and I'm like sometimes they just need a bone sometimes they just need like something I'm like hey this isn't you this isn't you I I think it is a scary thing to see like myself reflected in my supervisee sessions when I watch every you said the same you said the same thing about Cairo. No I'm just saying uh to see them myself reflect it and be like oh no you're it seems like you're trying to be more like me and I'm trying me which is normal which is normal but it is a little like oh no like it's normal you know uh yeah was I too yeah too influential you know yeah you're not like not like I'm thinking high and mighty of myself I just think that people try to imitate what they feel works. Yeah you know so anyway anyway we gotta go we gotta go I do gotta go yeah we're gonna try to put this cast out today uh today Monday we can try to put this cast out today now we do have a book that we're trying to finish writing and we do have Hey speaking of speaking of man um did they push

Choosing Fit, Sitting With The Sucky

SPEAKER_01 50:52

the date back? It's hard no it's hard editing a book and no I think I'm just gonna send her the chapters that we've worked on and uh Okay. Yeah I think I'm almost done with chapter six so um almost done with chapter six? Yeah yeah I moved to chapter eight I believe what man I'm just disappointed in you man that's all I'm saying but I I accept and I want the listeners to see I I accept and I'm making space for your disappointment um I'm gonna I'm gonna like chew it over and see how it feels um and then I'll let you know how it feels when I feel safe you know when you make the space for you when is that when is that gonna when is that gonna you like to know what I what I will do is withhold touch um and I'm gonna stonewall you the the whole time so I just want to be transparent about that. Thanks for your transp Thanks for your transparency. Yep yep anyway all right man we gotta go when's y'all fall break today today today and tomorrow yeah but I wish we can come up to see y'all for uh for our fall break yeah man that'd be fun that'd be fun man I think Charlotte's birthday party is gonna be this weekend he's turning two right turns two it turns two yeah because yeah because coach just turned three so two bruh two does he want anything in particular for his birthday nah we got him some stuff though we got him some stuff that I think he's gonna I think he's gonna enjoy man yeah I see if we got a uh uh an Arsenal jersey laying around you don't want to end up like me with a son who loves Liverpool nah man he likes um you know he really loves golf oh yeah you know yeah I'm talking like dog well we sit on another green and just me and him for like two weeks. Yeah the putting green that's in your backyard the one that you had constructed because you have a you have a a putting green not like a little cute little thing you can buy from Amazon like bulldozers were brought in to create a putting green hey how much money does UMHB pay you what's just what's just salary looking like I know y'all have some leaks over there I know y'all have some salary leaks what uh what's he making over there I didn't know bro enough enough enough to build a league golf course in your backyard Coothie is asking about money talking about money golf course in his backyard y'all come on man come on he built a golf course you're talking about it like we have an agriculture team I'm just saying some people came through some dirt down put a little bit the whole thing when was the last time you cut your own grass oh the silence oh I don't understand what that has to do with anything Dr. Austin got money you know I don't like the smell of oil come on man get my hands dirty come on man come on man like the smell of oil stuff see that's that's the dagger right there boy when was the last time you cut your own grass I have people for that I didn't say I have people for that man I don't know why you paid me the paint I don't like the shade you're painting me right now I'm just saying man yeah I'm I'm I'm just saying man we could go into it I've been looking at your books so looking at my books anyway alright bro we gotta get out of here man we're gonna we're gonna see y'all we're gonna talk to y'all next week hey maybe see y'all too because we're thinking about doing some video stuff too so let me see y'all thinking about it all right bro thinking about it I'm 14 minutes late to this meeting all right bro I'm hollering at you all right