The Twin Therapists Podcast
Drs. Jude and Julius Austin, identical twin brothers, lift the curtain on the "doing" of psychotherapy. With unwavering honesty, raw vulnerability, and unwavering compassion for the complexities of the human condition, they illuminate the path for both fledgling clinicians and seasoned professionals alike. The Twin Therapists podcast is your gateway to a world where healing meets humanity, leaving no stone unturned in the relentless pursuit of understanding the depths of the human soul.
The Twin Therapists Podcast
Resilience In Real Life with Dr. Kate Lund
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Some days it feels like the only way through is to push harder. We took a different route with psychologist and author Dr. Kate Lund, exploring how real resilience is built on flexibility, calm, and the everyday choices that shape family culture.
Dr. Lund’s story starts with hydrocephalus in childhood and winds through Washington, DC communications work before circling back to clinical training in Boston. That zigzag path becomes a lesson for students and early-career clinicians: growth isn’t linear, and the skills you need—listening, adaptability, presence—are forged in messy, meaningful places. We compare athletic grit with parental grace, trading the “bulldoze through” mindset for a lifestyle that leaves room to breathe.
We unpack Dr. Lund’s two books, including Bounce and its seven pillars of resilience—emotion regulation, frustration tolerance, friendships, focus, courage, confidence and motivation, and optimism—and Step Away, a playbook for parents who want to model steadiness without losing themselves. You’ll hear the practical side: how to lower your baseline stress, use the relaxation response (breath plus a calming word) to reset quickly, and turn post-game car rides into moments of connection instead of lectures. We share stories about twins, youth sports, and the small decisions that help kids redefine winning as effort and learning, not just the scoreboard.
The heart of it is authentic connection. We practice listening first, telling age-appropriate stories about our own setbacks, and changing one behavior the next time emotions run high. If you’ve been more directive than present, there’s a way to turn the ship—patiently, consistently, and without shame. By the end, you’ll have tools you can use today to create a calmer home, a stronger team dynamic, and a more resilient you.
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If you have any questions about any counseling related topics or would like the twins to share their thoughts about a particular counseling case - reach out with the info below:
https://thetwintherapists.com/
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Contact: thetwintherapists@gmail.com
Casual Start And Show Context
SPEAKER_05Kate, there's no like there's no formalities here. There's no like uh you know uh huge introduction. Yeah, I'll probably come in with some like, you know, uh after we're done talking with like a little introduction or whatever. But uh really it's just we have a cast where it's you know we we our cast is really for our students. Um we're both professors and um our students listen, but also people who buy a lot of our books listen. Uh it's one of those things where we we didn't want to do it until students forced us into doing it. And it's kind of taken a mind of its own. So we try to we try to use this cast as like an hour week where me and Jude get to check in with each other without kids screaming in the background. Um and talk about some stuff that maybe our students brought up, you know, over the past week or past month or whatever, maybe something that can really help some of our students who are closer to graduation just get some information, you know. So it's we talk about personal stuff, we talk about how personal stuff kind of influences our clinical work, our research, you know, things like that.
SPEAKER_00Cool. Cool.
SPEAKER_05Sounds good. So tell it tell us about tell us about the boys. You have twin boys.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I do.
SPEAKER_05What's the ages?
SPEAKER_02And uh they're awesome.
Guest’s Twins And Boarding School
SPEAKER_02They're 18. So I'm on I'm on the the other end of that. On the other end, right? And so definitely uh they keep us on our toes. So they are um very different. And so one of them is senior here in Seattle, and so we're deep in the college process with him. The other one uh had gone to a summer program on the East Coast uh at a boarding school a couple of years ago, and he came home from that experience and he was like, I loved it. I have friends from all over the world, I want to do this for real. So we were like, mm-mm, but we wanted the best educational sort of opportunity and otherwise opportunity for him. And it seemed like it was gonna be a great opportunity, and it is. He's he's on the East Coast at boarding school, and um he took an extra year when he went out there because we didn't want him to start as a junior. So kind of a a little way of saying, you know, kind of our boys are twins, but they're very different. Um also very close. And with William being away, um, they've gotten even closer. They talk uh night. Um, one of them will call as they're coming home from school or practice or whatever. They're both rowers, so they row and talk a lot about that. And yeah, so anyway, they're but they're they're cool kids, awesome kids, and um, it's been a super fun journey, which is only gonna continue.
SPEAKER_05Oh my goodness. That's awesome, man. Yeah, I think Jesus, you you and I like we so we we did pretty much everything together, right? But I would still say like even us being together helped us differentiate even more. You know, um, where I I don't know. I think if we were apart, um I I feel like it would have made us more the same.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05You know what I mean? Like, do you think, do you feel that? I don't know. Yeah, it's weird because we didn't plan on being we didn't plan on doing the same things. Yeah, like there was never a time where we sat down and was like, hey, let's do everything together. I actually spent quite a bit of time trying to get away. Yeah, actually, you know, just that was big into the stars of like, get me away from this dude. From him. What's he doing? Uh I like that too. Uh guest. Yeah, that's kind of how it was. It's like, so we're gonna pick a major, and like, let's pick a major. You're gonna pick psychology and exercise and sports science. Me too. Yeah. That's what I wanted to. Yeah, it was never like uh we gotta do this together.
SPEAKER_02So it just kind of evolved then, is what we did.
SPEAKER_05It just evolved, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02That is so cool. And and were you guys both athletes? Were you and you were playing playing the same sport?
Hosts’ Twin Journey And Sports Careers
SPEAKER_02Or was it baseball?
SPEAKER_05We played uh soccer growing up, and then we played soccer uh four years in college. Uh, so we played collegiately and then we played professionally, and we played for the U.S. uh soccer program. Um growing up, we played for Cruz Azul in Mexico. Um, and it just so happened that it was like, you know, uh together. Yeah. Like a packaged deal. We played different positions. I was a goalkeeper, and he was a center defensive mid, and uh, and we just it was just I don't know. Yeah. It got two for one. Uh and it was and it was great, but different styles of playing, you know, different approaches to the game. Uh same thing, same thing clinically, you know, different approaches clinically, you know. Uh yeah, we you know, it's one of those things where you don't, you know, obviously we're not gonna get into the same graduate program because why would they accept two people? Two of us. And they're like, but we'll apply. Yeah, we'll apply. You know, whoever gets in gets in, whoever doesn't doesn't. Yeah. You know? And then you both did. Yeah, and they were like, No, we'll take both of you. And we were like, What? Okay. Sure, sure. That's great. Like, oh, yeah, I guess we'll go together. Same thing with same thing with PhD. You know, it's like, oh well, but that can't take 10 seconds. Yeah, there's not gonna be enough funding for both of you. Sure, that we can know. And then you guys both got in.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Yeah, that's so cool. And then it just evolved from there. I love that. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so yeah, our guys, you know, they're they were kind of um, you know, different learning styles, different um kind of ways of one, very, very socially emotionally aware and evolved from a very early age.
SPEAKER_02The other one, some learning uh challenges and very, very social. And so each of them has come into their own in their own unique way. Um and you know, they're so we really try to foster that in their context, but at the same time, they're they're like best friends, you know, and they really do support each other and talk every night. And, you know, they're uh the one who struggled academically a little bit started rowing a little bit later than the than his brother. And um he's really taken to it and his brothers kind of mentored him, and it's just it's really it's cool stuff.
SPEAKER_05Wow. That's great. That's great, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say that since we've been further apart, we've been closer as well. You know, and not that we weren't close before, because we were close, but you know, we did things together. And so there was nothing we wouldn't end the day going, how was your day? You know, because it was like I was next to you. What do you mean, how was the day? Like I was also cold when you were cold and practiced, practiced stuck today. So yeah, I was throwing up next to you. What are you talking about? Uh, where you know, once we got married and had kids and moved and jobs and stuff, then it's like you you become more curious, you know, like, you know, what was that like for you? Like he had kids first. And I remember watching him parent a baby and thinking, where is he getting the energy from? Yeah like I don't have that reserve in my body, you know, like he he's staying up and washing bottles and I'm going to bed. And I I could, if you asked me to wash a bottle right now, I couldn't do that. And then that's when that's when Jude realized that I was tougher and stronger than him. When that was the moment he realized, hey shit, I'm I'm tougher, stronger, more resilient, uh hardened. No, that's when that's when I realized I could do it better. And so I had my first kid and showed him how it was done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Showed him how it was done. You know, and so yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously.
SPEAKER_02100%, 100%. But that authenticity piece, it's always been there, right? At the found at the core.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think so, man. Yeah. I think our I think we I think our family's like that, you know, and it is, I think we've erased where you you had to be authentic. I think to to especially Jews and I in our relationship, uh, because you we went through so much together. And, you know, it's like he's the person that you can go to and go, you know, hey man, because we we learned to relate. We had stru struggles uh academically. Just all just all throughout. I don't think we really got to school until we were in our doctor of graduate school. Yeah, like our doc program. It's when we really were like, oh yeah, we we could do this, we could learn, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Uh before it before that, we were fighting, you know. And uh and but he was the person I can go to and like whole classes reading flashcards, and I'm just like mouthing stuff, you know, just like, you know, teachers like two plus two, and I'm like, right. And I look at him and he's doing the same thing, and I'm like, oh, we both don't get okay. So I'm not crazy. You're not supposed to be getting this right now, and it's okay, you know? And so it was, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard to, it's hard to lie to somebody when you're both sitting at a table crying over math problems like that. You know your character.
SPEAKER_02100%. You could, you could, you could relate and you could get that level of survival. I love that. That's cool.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely, man. Yeah. Growing up in the in the context of a relationship, there's always like a there's always the other. You know, there's me, there's my there's my identity, and there's my, you know, uh personhood. And then I'm very aware of the other, which is my brother, of like how he would approach this clinically, how he would approach this conversation, you know, what um yeah, what would he be doing? Um Yeah, I try not to let it influence me too much. Um, but you don't want to be too good. Well, people would start to wonder. Well, here we go. Kate, welcome to the cast, Kate. This is this is what it would be. This is what it'd be like. I'd be in a room with him. Uh there's hardly any space for the rest of us. Um anyway, man. Anyway, thanks for joining us, man. Thanks for joining us. Um, Juice, I don't know if you wanted to do like a little introduction. Well, I was just gonna let Kate kind of take it away, you know. Like just tell some of our students, tell some of our listeners a little bit about you and kind of give us a maybe if not a direction, kind of like some some points to kind of start a conversation on.
SPEAKER_02Sure. Yeah,
Kate’s Path To Psychology And DC Detour
SPEAKER_02yeah. So, you know, so I'm a I'm a psychologist, obviously. Um, I've been a psychologist for 20 plus years, and that was a direction that I always felt like I was gonna go in. Um, had a couple starts and stops, which I'll talk about in a second here, but really have always been interested in human behavior, um, how folks move through and beyond uh challenge, this idea of resilience. And that goes way back to my childhood when I was diagnosed with this medical condition called hydrocephalus, um, which is where the cerebral spinal fluid doesn't circulate through the brain as it should, causing pressure to build up. The good news is it can be managed with something called a shunt. Bad news is shunts break. So a childhood kind of like in and out of the hospital, coming back to school, looking different, feeling different, really kind of impacted my sense of self back then. But I was really lucky I had a great support system. Parents, teachers, friends helped me focus on what I could do as opposed to what I couldn't do. That was key. So it really kind of built from that point. I was very, very fortunate the way all that kind of turned out. Um went through school, always drawn to psychology classes, um, kind of understanding how folks were relating to each other, human behavior. I was terrible in math and science. So if you're if you're um hoping for graduate school, but you feel like your GRE isn't gonna be good enough, don't worry, don't panic. You can still make it. Um use your other strengths to you know circumvent the challenges, which is what I did. Statistics was not pretty for me. It was not pretty. Um but but backtracking a little bit, um I graduated from college with a psychology degree and a minor in journalism. And I had spent the because I think this is important when talking to psychology students, um, because it kind of speaks this idea that you don't have to go straight through. You can still get to where you think you're gonna land, um, but you can have other experiences. In the meantime, I took the I took the first semester of my senior year in college and I studied in Washington, DC at American University, doing a broadcast journalism um program uh at American, but I also had this internship at the White House where I was able to work in the communications department and also in a um office called Agency Liaison, which was taking calls from folks across the country requiring federal assistance. But the communications piece was fascinating to me. I kind of thought for a minute that I was gonna go into broadcast journalism myself, but the chaos on the White House lawn at 4 30 in the morning as everyone was setting up the new shots and I was observing and helping out where I could as an intern, you know, bringing a chair or whatever. Um, it was it was a lot for me. Like the hair, the makeup, the intensity, the pace. Everything everything. But I loved Washington. So when I graduated from college, I moved back there and I took a job in marketing and public relations at an agency working with PBS, discovery, and learning channels. Okay. And it was fabulous, you know, and I I really I didn't want to go right back to graduate school. I wanted to have that experience living and working in the city. And it was great. Um, for about three, three and a half years, um, I did that, but there was a point where I knew that it was time to shift gears and get back to school. Um, and I and I did that, and the rest is history, you know, went through my training in Boston, moved to Boston with my husband right after we got married. We met in DC, moved to Boston and then started graduate school. But I think that I was I I was I was more prepared for graduate school, me personally, with that time and experience between going right back. So that's that's me in a nutshell. And then, you know, we've moved around a ton of my husband's job. You can do a lot of cool things as a psychologist when you're moving. You can kind of shift gears on focuses, you can be portable and flexible, you can write books, create courses, teach. So all of those things I think are important to men um mention to students because you know it doesn't have to be like a narrow box that you're fitting yourself into.
SPEAKER_05Yes. Yeah, but the at the end of it being private practice and that's it. You know, it's like you can do so many different things. That's great, man. So what do you do now? What's what do you do now?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so what I do now is I have a small practice, um, very small. I work mostly uh with parents. Uh a lot of them are sports parents, um
Current Work: Resilient Parenting And Therapy Dogs
SPEAKER_02helping them to build resilience in themselves, kind of create a resilient uh lifestyle, so to speak. And that's the um topic of my book here Step Away, resilient parenting. Um so much of my work is centered around working with parents in this way. Um, I also uh contract, I'm a contractor for um a company that provides therapy and coaching to medical professionals and medical residents um around the country. So I do that um a handful of hours a week. And uh then I have a uh course coming up on Step Away. So I've tried over time to keep things really portable and flexible so that I could be present for my kids as much as possible.
SPEAKER_05For sure. For sure.
SPEAKER_02And and my other thing is actually, this is like at the top of my list, even though it's not um, I don't I don't get paid for it, but I I absolutely love it. I'm part of the um animal assisted therapy team with my dog Wally at Seattle Children's Hospital. And we go out there, you know, a weekly and we meet with the kids, we meet with the families, sometimes we meet with a whole department of like neurologists or something who are stressed and they want a visit from a dog. So it's I I love that. It's it's amazing.
SPEAKER_05Wow. That's great. I mean, I feel like there's a lot of stuff to kind of pick up. How much time do we have? Yeah, I can sit and talk to you for days. Well, one, okay, so like let me try to add some context to the conversation because this is the stuff that I'm interested in. One, it's it's just interesting. Did you ever uh were you ever involved in sports growing up?
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah. Um, so yes, I was uh I was a tennis player.
SPEAKER_05Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02Yep, I was a tennis player, and um that was actually a really important piece of my life and identity growing up because of the hydrocephalus. I couldn't play contact sports, I couldn't do like gymnastics and things that some of the other girls were doing. So I kind of gravitated towards tennis and it became a really um important thing for me in terms of like proving what I could do, and I could do something, you know, for sure in sports well. And it just, yeah, and so I played in college too. Um and I I I love tennis, it was very important, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Cool. So it's just there's a lot of parallels between the three of us with you know just our athletic careers and then like the toughness that existed within school and how hard it was to like because I mean we took I remember taking statistics in college and the professor saying you can use everything known to man to help you with this test. And I remember still making a 38 on the test. And it was rough. It's rough. Being like, now I now I teach I teach the research class. So you you know, for listeners, you can do it. You know, you just no, you can't abandon all hope. Statistics is not for you. No, I'm statistically speaking.
What Resilience Really Looks Like
SPEAKER_05No, but okay, so I I do have a question, and you can jump into with some questions, but we're gonna we're gonna hit you with a couple questions here, right? Because there's a lot of things. And then we just just did it. And then we just have a conversation about it. Yeah. So you so I I'm getting this undercurrent of resilience in your own personal life, right? And then I'm I'm also getting this like professional uh direction with resilience and like the books you've written and you know what you've studied and things like that. What's the biggest thing that surprised you about yourself with regard to resilience as you've kind of integrated it into your career?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, that's a really um really great question. And I think one of the things that really has struck me over time is that our way of fostering resilience in ourselves, showing up resilient, ebbs and flows over time. You know, sometimes it's harder than others. Um, I remember when my boys were, our boys were were firstborn, and we um got them home from the hospital, and no sooner had that happened than my husband's job transferred him to another city.
SPEAKER_04Of course.
SPEAKER_02And so he was all of a sudden gone then five days a week. And so it's like, okay, great. But I was still convinced that I could be like, you know, still could be a strong fitness buff, my career would be epic and purging, and you know, I'd be great mom and there and pro. And then it didn't take me long to realize that, well, hmm, with all that sleep deprivation and with all the chaos that you know was coming coming along with this whole thing about being a twin mom and they were infants and my husband was away, um, hmm, had to kind of figure out how to recalibrate a little bit so that I could stay strong and realize that I wasn't going to be able to do everything at once, you know. And it was and so it took a really long time for me to calibrate in that way. And I'm I'm not sure that it's perfect at this point. You know, I always have too many things on my plate where I should really be like a little bit more kind of focused. But um, you know, the the thing is priorities become clear and priorities for okay, well, where you know, how do I want to design my lifestyle or whatever so that I can be present available for the boys as much as possible while still having a meaningful career and professional life, while still being so it's it's kind of breaking things down. And I guess I guess that surprised me over time because I mean I mean, initially, and then over time it's become more clear because I just figure okay, just gonna go in here and do this thing, and it's all gonna be good. And the reality is we can't be everything to everyone all at once, and I guess that's the thing that really became clear.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's great. It's it's interesting, right? Because I don't know if you experience this, you know, the same, Kate, or you Jews as well. Like sometimes, especially being an athlete, there's a level of just being able to suffer and and know your limits, you know, like and and be a good sufferer, you know. It's like you're you're down points in a match, and it's just you against this person, and you have to, you know, and and you're gonna lose, but you know you gotta finish the you know, the match, and you gotta do it in a way that you can sleep at home. Oh man. You know, you know what I mean? And so there's something I think sometimes people see resiliency as like being a rhino to things, just being able to put your head down and just run straight through it. Right. Where sometimes resiliency can mirror elasticity or flexibility, you know, and to be able to go, oh, I'm struggling here. I need to be resilient in my relationship to myself. You know what I mean? And I need to go, okay, I'm not like, I am not. What is success here? Like, what is achieving here? You know, it's not gonna be a victory if I have six-pack
Balancing Parenting And Career Tradeoffs
SPEAKER_05abs, but my kids are starving. You know, it's like you know what it would be nice or it would be nice if you had to choose sometimes. They don't need to eat all the time, do they? Uh no, but you you know what I mean, where you just I don't know, is that because I feel like that's the struggle as an athlete. You face a challenge and then you go, I'm gonna meet this.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_05You know, you have kids and it's like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this well.
SPEAKER_02Right, but yes, and you make such a good point because it's that whole idea of flexibility in thinking and flexibility in the way that you're living and that sort of thing. So I kind of think of resilience as is much broader than just sort of like moving through and beyond a singular challenge as it comes up. It's more like a lifestyle that we need to create, kind of a resilient lifestyle so that you know we're more prepared to meet challenges in in a more solid way as they come up. But as they come up, yeah. And recognizing that okay, you might have six things on your to-do list, reality is you might only do two of them on a given day. Sure. Okay. Well then let's flex and figure out how to fit the rest of the other four in, you know, the next day or the day after. Um so flexibility, you bring a really good point up, is so important.
SPEAKER_05Well, you you mentioned you you mentioned flexibility. And I, you know, the so some of our students and some of our listeners are, you know, probably in the position now where, you know, they they may have they may be in graduate school and they may have just had their first kid. Actually, I'm thinking about a specific student right now who is probably listening to this cast and he is in this position. Um and uh we're talking about resilience and the greatness of flexibility, but w can you can you just kind of give us a snapshot of what you kind of had to morph into to be the the type of parent that you wanted to be in the moment while also trying to create some semblance of a career for yourself? I know it's kind of a loaded question, but I'm I'm asking for I'm asking for myself as well, because I have little kids.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I hear you. I know, and it's a really good question. It's an important question. Um and so I I had to be flexible in well, first of all, I had to prioritize and I knew that, you know, being as present and available for my kids as I could be, and that for me, and I think defining what that means for you as a person is important and as a family. So for me, that meant you know, dropping them off at school and picking them up in the afternoon, yeah. Um, and being around to, you know, help them out with whatever was going on in the evening, homework, what what have you, activities. Um, so that meant then being flexible in terms of what were the professional kind of angles or focuses that would fit into that framework that would allow me to be there in that way. You know, and that's gonna look different for everybody. You know, I I had opportunities to take full-time jobs, hospital jobs, which is where I did all my training. I did that training and I loved it. And there was a piece of me that wished I could be doing that, you know, long term, but I knew that if I had been doing that, you know, working 80 hours, 60 to 80 hours a week in a hospital as a psychologist, I would have not been where I wanted to be with my kids. So I had to kind of navigate through that and and define for me what success was gonna look like on on both those planes. And it's a process, you know, and and it doesn't have to be, you know, and I've I've tried different things with it, you know. I've I've had a fuller private practice, or I've done more on the consulting front, or you know, I've focused more exclusively on books or courses. And so you gotta be creative, at least that's what I've found. Creative and flexible, kind of define and manage your expectations for yourself and for others, and recognize that nothing is set in stone forever. Things can kind of ebb and flow and and evolve over time. And um communication, communicating with my husband, creating a partnership around it all has been important as well in in my world. And so that's that's and and then also um trying to carve out time for you know, passions, passion projects, things that are fun, bringing joy, which for me is the the animal assisted therapy thing. Um I'm I'm a major dog lover, and that is a very meaningful thing on many levels. So that's that's kind of what's worked for me, but I guess you know, for others it's gonna look very different. And for others, it it'll it'll probably feel better to be in the hospital working as a psychologist 60 to 80 hours a week. And then they'll take care of things on the home front in a different way. Not to say one is better than the other, it's just what works for you. And sometimes that has to evolve, you know, it's not really clear up front.
SPEAKER_05That's great. This is like uh I listen, you know, we're all clinicians here, so like you can share at whatever comfort level you you feel, you know. But um my wife is she went to law school, and so she's she tr I can say we have four kids. Um all Under the age of eight. Oh boy. Okay. Oh yeah. No, don't don't do that, Kate. No. No, don't no. The way you said, oh boy. Oh my do skip to be. Don't don't don't do that. You shouldn't be keeping it. No, no, don't do that to me. Uh I'm already sweating right now. Notice this his office is at the end of the day. Yeah, it's a closet upstairs.
Raising Resilient Kids: The Seven Pillars
SPEAKER_05Third floor of his house. On the third floor of my house in a closet that's adjacent to the attic. I'm behind, I'm behind three locked doors, Kate. He is HIPAA-proofed. He is he is FERPA-proof. I'm in the soundproof room. They can't hear me scream. That's the point of the soundproofing. Uh no, but like I I know my wife um experienced a fair amount of like guilt in, you know, I spent this money and this time, you know, going to law school and like trying to build this career, but also having this calling to like be the type of mom that she wants to be. And we've talked about that within our relationship, but I, you know, I I don't feel that same guilt or that same pull. So I I couldn't be able to speak on it, you know. I'm not asking you to speak on behalf of all moms, but like what was that like for you to try to balance that tug to Kate, you're actually the person that would fit best for this position in this hospital. We actually need you, while also, you know, like, yeah, but also my family does too.
SPEAKER_02Right, yeah, and not not incredibly easy, right? And it's it's um and and kind of deciding where I guess the bigger priority is in that moment. I mean, I I left I left a a pretty cool opportunity behind when my husband's job transferred us to another state. And um, I still think about that from time to time. Like I wonder what would have happened. But you know, then kind of try to remind myself of all the cool things and amazing opportunities I've had with the boys and the family despite that, right? And and so and that and that stuff is real. And so I think it's a question of I mean, the pull is real, right? And sort of acknowledging the pull and not trying to pretend there is no pull, because I think that's the thing that's going to create resentment around one or the other and the pull. But it's it's like acknowledging the pull and then making intentional choices to mitigate that pull or to create a situation, a foundation, a life where it works, you know, and and sometimes and recognizing the reality that sometimes you have to give things up to have more in another space, that kind of thing. I think that's it's it's it's it's not a um it's not a one size fits all process, and it's not like a one decision and you're done process. It's kind of a process which requires, you know, an evolution and flexibility. Flexibility is key because you might try something, it doesn't work, and also this has been really important for me, thinking out of the box. What are some projects, what are some things I can create and build in a in a different way, you know, like my books or my courses or you know, speaking, that sort of thing. I'm gonna be doing a lot more speaking coming up here um in the new year. And it's kind of like it's kind of like um, you know, that stuff takes time to to evolve and takes time to become clear. Um so I guess that's a very, very long-winded answer to say basically it's a process that requires clarity and expectation and flexibility.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I love that. I I have a question. And I wanna I want to, you know, maybe after this question, dive more a little bit into your books and the the the writing process, you know, um and can and nerd out on that stuff because G is doesn't have a process. I have a process for writing that I give to the hurtful, but Google with your how many how many unread extra spreadsheets. I'm keeping a tally of all of the hurtful things here in the city. No, because listen, Kate, listen, I keep I create extra spreadsheets that are oh man. And and he never looks at them. You know, I know you don't, Jesus. It's fine. The color code, what color are they? Absolutely. You clearly do not look at the spreadsheet. I know you want to percent. But you know what, Jeez? You know what I appreciate? When I ask you how was it helpful? I lie. You say yes, you lie, yeah. And I appreciate that a lot of people. To your face. Yeah. No, okay. So here's the question, right? Because I do I there's this kind of evolving, oh my light turned on. There's this evolving process, right? I think for clinicians, as we're going in there, and I think you mentioned that it takes flexibility, it takes thinking outside of the box, it takes some intentionality, right? Um here's my question. Are you are you surprised with the kind of person you are now because of the training and experiences that you've encountered, right? And here's the premise of that. It's because when students start the program, I usually tell them, like, remember who you are and then pay attention to how you're growing. Because you you the program and this career, I feel like is a crucible and it holds you and it you get shaped by it, you know, and we experience things like we get married and we have kids and we do, you know, but is this the Kate that you thought you would be now or you know, being an athlete and all of that stuff, you know?
Stress Response And The Relaxation Response
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, no, and I think I think that's a really interesting question and um a really important one. And I I would have to say yes, because I think that at at the core, I'm I've been the same person, you know. It's just like you kind of um evolve and and change and take on new aspects of things as you move forward. Um, and then there are points where certain important key aspects of yourself kind of aren't as prominent for certain periods of time, but then you know, some space develops or whatever, and you have time to re-engage, for example, in fitness and all that. I mean, I've never totally disengaged in fitness and sports and that sort of thing, but I'm making a much more intentional um I'm making it a much more intentional focus at this point. Like I'm doing some intentional strength training to go along with cardio stuff. And so so it's it's it's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_05Still in there. But yeah, the pilot light's still on. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the fire in there.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. But at the core, I'm I'm I'm I'm the same person. I I I do believe that is that you know you learn and you grow and and you get refined. You're fine, yes. Exactly. Yeah, you get refined.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's funny, like just in the terms of extroversion or you're being extroverted or being introverted, like, you know, I feel like sometimes people will ask us, you know, like how do you guys get up and talk to a room full of people? You know? And I do feel like the money. The money. Oh gosh, you see, Kate, you see, it's just serving people. Oh, yeah. And obviously serving the community. Yes. No. But you but but there are times where even when I'm writing, you know, or you hold a book like you just held up your book, and there's times where I have this like reflective period where I go, who is this person on this front cover? You know, like a PhD, LB, like who is this person? You know what I mean? And I think our students, there I don't know if we acknowledge that that you're not, to some extent, you're not changing. You know, you're becoming more and more of who you are.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_05You know, who you always were. You know, and and what the process does is refines you and it shaves off year by year, experience by experience, maybe the rough edges of your identity, becoming a mom or becoming a dad, or becoming a partner, or becoming an author, or uh you know what I mean? It just kind of shapes you. Um because I do feel like it's a leap to think, oh my gosh, I shouldn't be a therapist, I shouldn't be a psychologist because I am a dumpster fire, you know the person.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_05Or it's like you heard it here first, guys. You know what I mean? That's a that's not an ign that's not an acknowledged our confession. God it's an example. But you but you know what I mean. And people will and people will say, like, oh my gosh, I could never, you know, but you can.
SPEAKER_02You can, yes. And believing in your possibility, right? Is is really key.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yes.
SPEAKER_02And I I think that's that's something that you know I try to try to help folks with a lot, sort of believing in their possibility, you know, challenge or no challenge, but particularly on the other side of challenge, but also believing in themselves at a at a very fundamental level within their own unique context is is so important. And it's important for all of us at all times, but particularly, you know, uh graduate students, doctoral students in this field, really, really important because it's you know, this is not necessarily a linear process. I guess that's important to mention too. Oh gosh.
SPEAKER_05Yes. That phrase believing in your possibility, uh, man, sometimes it gets, you know, speaking as a dataphor, it sometimes things can feel insurmountable, you know. Um in the very basic of terms of like, there's no way I'm gonna get on top of these emails. You know, like there's just, you know, uh there's a soccer tournament every weekend. Every weekend, you know, there's a you know, we're going, we're traveling somewhere, you know, there's a there's dance on Thursdays, and my daughter has to pee every time I put the leotard on. I'm soon at the time. Every time, you know, are the leotards on backwards in the but you start to
Sports Parenting Moments And Modeling
SPEAKER_05you start to want to ask the big questions, you know, like am I the dad I want to be, am I the professor I want to be? Am I the therapist I want to be? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I mean that's well, that's the thing that we struggle with, right? And that kind of I guess brings us to the to the book, right? Like just tell us a little bit about the book, because you've written two books, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So the first book um was Bounce. Bounce, help your child build resilience and thrive in school, sports, and life. Really focused on the on on seven pillars of the resilient child, which sort of evolved through my clinical work, kind of things that I was seeing come up over and over again. And also through my lens as a mom, watching my own kids who were in second grade at the time and some of the issues that they were were grappling with, but really fundamental principles of kind of what it means to be resilient and the the um pillars outlined in the book apply to all of us throughout the lifespan. So managing emotion, tolerating frustration, navigating friendship and social pressure, focus and attention, um, you know, developing courage, confidence, motivation, and then finally optimism. Um, and optimism kind of focuses on this idea of being able to see the possibility on the other side of the challenge and being able to kind of be flexible when necessary to shift gears when we don't succeed the first time out of the gate and find another way to move forward towards that possibility. And so that's that's kind of the the in a nutshell overview of bounce and um you know with the written with the elementary school child in mind, but pillars apply to all of us throughout the lifespan.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna need that book ace. I have a third grader and this the pillars that you talked about. I mean, seriously, we he lost in the championship soccer game this weekend. And I saw like the pillars that you just mentioned, it it all happened within the span of an hour, you know, like nav he lost to some of his good friends, so like navigating the friends group, just you know, just all of the stuff that I'm seeing right now is what you just mentioned, you know. Um just if we can just stay on bounds for a millisecond.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_05What's what's some of the things that okay, uh let's take me for example, right? Um my oldest is is in third grade. Uh then I have a daughter who is six, and then another son who is two, no, three, three, and then a little daughter who is seven months. Okay. So I she's so cute. Um what's some of the maybe pitfalls that I may fall into, uh that I may be susceptible to, even like with my education and clinical knowledge, training, all my training, what's still some of the stuff that you would see a parent or like me, you know, maybe fall into?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because right, because sort of real life as it unfolds is often very different than what we know theoretically and training, and we know how, but but actually doing, you know, is different. And so I would say, you know, you're probably susceptible to a lot of the same things I was slash am still susceptible to in relation to kids, particularly young kids, you know, overwhelmed, being exhausted, you know, not sleeping as you should. No, you know, reacting to I shouldn't have asked this question.
SPEAKER_05I'm so sorry. You could put a trigger warning on that. Excuse me while I set up my caffeinated IV real quick.
SPEAKER_02Oh man. Yeah, so like reacting instead of responding. So all these things. So, you know, it's it's it's um it's a lot, right? So it's it's there's a lot happening. And so, you know, I I I think that having a way to manage your stress response and just make sure that you're as level as possible all the time, which is much easier said than done. But if we're starting up here and then a stressor hits and we haven't had any sleep, we're gonna probably escalate to the point of shutdown. Sure. And we're not gonna be able to do much uh or we're not gonna be able to show up as the parent that we want to be. You know, as we're not gonna be able to show up how we want to show up.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_02And and so I think that's a a big, a big piece to mention, and just you know, having a way to manage your stress response on a daily basis, whether that's through, you know, mindfulness or breathing
Authentic Connection Over Quick Fixes
SPEAKER_02or meditation or you know, exercise or having a quick walk around the block with a delicious cup of coffee or whatever, whatever works for you is the key. Um so that's that's I love that.
SPEAKER_05I have a follow question, right? Because I think sometimes, you know, the the image that that can create in somebody's mind is that you have to be this Namaste-esque floating, you know, yoga position in every argument kind of every situation type of parent, you know, which is I think sometimes not um possible because it brings shame in there. Can you can you say a little bit more about okay, when you're taking care of yourself and you're able to manage your stress response, what does that look like realistically in the house, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so that's such a great point because yeah, and I'm definitely not talking about becoming yoga-esque or namaste in every moment because I'm certainly not namaste in every moment. But anyway, it's a whole whole story. But but yeah, it's just you know, it's putting some sort of practice into place so that so that you're you're you're caring for yourself in a way so that you're not escalated all the time.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. You don't start the day at eight.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_05You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02Start the day at eight. You want to try to, you know, really start the day at more of a two or one or whatever. You know, it's gonna look different for all of us, and it's gonna look different on different days. So that's important too, to recognize that we're not always gonna be, you know, chill and even, you know, we might start at a four on a given day because you have a particular stressor at at hand or or what have you. So the important thing is not to beat ourselves up. The important thing is to recognize that the goal is to do the best we can within our own unique context. But I always I do recommend for folks to put some sort of a practice into place. And and one that I really like is I don't know if you guys have heard of this, but it's called the relaxation response. It was designed by um a physician in Boston in the 1970s, Herbert Benson. Heard of him.
SPEAKER_05Um Yeah, heard of him. I mean, my my dissertation was on therapeutic presence. Uh so I'm like, I'm a geek for this stuff. Okay, okay. But tell us about it. Tell us a little bit about it.
SPEAKER_02Well, so Herbert Benson um developed this technique called the relaxation response back in the 70s. He's he was a physician, a cardiologist, and he developed this technique before this type of thing was a thing. You know, before, I mean, his medical colleagues thought he was crazy at the time. Like, don't focus on that. You know, you need to be but he persevered, and the technique became so um useful, beneficial in modulating the stress response of his medical patients, cardiology patients, you know, the the technique and really well researched, and it's it's researched on multiple levels beyond what I'm kind of explaining, but it's um become the cornerstone of the mind-body medicine program at Mass General Hospital. And I love it because it's so simple. You breathe as you're thinking about a word or a phrase that you find soothing in some way. That's it. It's like so simple. And so nothing, you know, you're not you don't really have to think, and that's the point, right? You want to use that word or that phrase as kind of like a placeholder and breathe, and that will give you the sense of what it feels like to be modulated as you practice, you know, time and practice, consistent practice is important. And that's really what I recommend to folks. I teach that technique, which is directly the the way I teach it, is directly derived from what Dr. Benson created. Um and it's it's very effective. And the thing is, people can once they've developed that foundation in it, they can carry it around
Turning The Ship: Listening First
SPEAKER_02in their back pocket, so to speak. You know, if they're about to go into a stressful conversation or a kid, it's great with kids, you know, is going into a stressful lacrosse game, for example. They can ground themselves before moving into that space. So that I think is is really um a great way to do it. Yeah, you know, and it's bite-size.
SPEAKER_05That was actually our master's thesis. Um, we did uh we use this this technology called heart math.
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness. Yeah, I yeah, I know heart math.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, we use and we paired we did the same thing with baseball players. With baseball players to help them uh jump into the zone quicker, uh specifically pitchers. So we anchored their thoughts with uh we anchored their uh their body with that with a positive thought, and then we tracked their breathing and you know all that stuff. And the the students that were a little bit more in the zone that can get into the zone quicker were the ones who could regulate their thoughts and breathing, you know, to kind of like facilitate the process of jumping right into the zone, you know.
SPEAKER_02I love that. I I have all the heart math stuff here myself.
SPEAKER_05That's great.
SPEAKER_02I would I just throw it in there, I would love to see that that paper if if if you're willing to share that being.
SPEAKER_05Oh yeah. It's some it's somewhere in somebody's like, you know, uh drop box, you know. Uh it's great. I mean, I think it's great for athletes, but it's also good for like, you know, like I think about parents, I think about myself, you know, like there's times where I'm in I'm in a situation where I'm getting tough. In the thick of it with your kids. And you know, like for example, my kids started running. This uh I have three boys, right? Uh six, four, and two. And so we just started uh them doing running. And we're getting up to this race, and my oldest is like, oh man, it's been winning first place each race. And he goes, What if I lose today? What if I lose? You know? And and in that moment. We'll have to disown you, kid. I don't know what. Yeah, I'm like, gosh, man, it was nice knowing you, son. No, in that in that moment, I'm I'm like, okay, trying to think about how absolutely critical this moment is. You know what I mean? As a as a as a therapist, I'm like, this, oh, this is that moment. This is the tape. This is when the push the play on the tape. This is the tape where he's pushing play and record at the same time, you know. And I said something like, you know, like what what is what is winning? What is losing? You know what I mean? Like, if you ran the best that you can, it's that success today, you know? It's something like that, you know. But it's in those moments that if I'm if we're running and I'm trying to get them dressed and I'm trying to pin the things on their beds and shirt, and we're getting out of the car, and I'm like, you know, and then he goes, What if I lose today? And I'm like, who cares? You know, like that, you know, that's like if I can practice on this race is on a Sunday. If I start on Monday practicing, you know what I mean? I meet him in a different place on Sunday.
SPEAKER_02100%, yes. And I I work with sports parents on this very thing all the time. Because being able to meet their kids in that place which is more modulated, where it's okay if you don't win the race on Sunday. It's okay. And you know, you'll you're do if you do your very best, that's the thing that's important. And you know, then there'll be another race and helping them to see that, but just really communicating in that level way, it's okay.
SPEAKER_05Is that what step away is about that that book just like being able to to find those places where you can get perspective? Can you say a little bit more about that one?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So the book is is about just that, exactly. It's it's about how we as parents can build a resilient lifestyle, how we can integrate these tools and strategies into our fundamental way of being so that we're not only building and bolstering resilience in ourselves, we're also showing up for our kids in that modulated way. And we're modeling for them these um fundamentals, these foundational principles of resilience and helping them to build the same thing. Also talks a lot about the authentic connection, you know, and connecting with your child in an authentic way and helping them to see the possibilities on the other side of uh challenge through your own example.
SPEAKER_05Well, can you can you say a little bit more? Well, I I know you probably have like a hard out at twelve.
Closing Reflections And Where To Find Kate
SPEAKER_05No, I don't know. You don't actually Okay Kate, can you go just like a little bit longer or you got a hard out at the top of the hour?
SPEAKER_02Uh sure, I can go a little bit longer. Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_05All right. Well, can you can you just speak on the authentic connection? Like what is having an authentic how do you know when your connection with your kid is authentic?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so so really what I'm what I'm talking about with the authentic um human connection is is a couple things. Just being able to be there and hear your kids' experiences and perceptions of things, particularly when things haven't gone well, as opposed to jumping in there with fixes or solutions. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is um, you know, not being afraid to share the spots, the experiences with your child where you've struggled or failed or not succeeded. You know, obviously keeping in mind that this is important to be, you know, sort of developmentally appropriate in that way, you know, so sharing things which are developmentally appropriate, but you know, allowing your child to see that you too have struggled at points and and we're all gonna struggle. And this is how you move forward, or just by virtue of knowing or seeing you now, the fact that you did move forward and and you know get through that. Giving kids that sense on a human level is so powerful. Because otherwise our kids are gonna see us as kind of like oh well, mom and dad are perfect, and you know, they've never had a lot of people disconnected from their experience.
SPEAKER_05Exactly.
SPEAKER_02And so this helps helps them to connect with that real human aspect of us and can help them help give them that sense of hmm, okay. So it is possible to move forward from this this point where I'm struggling. It is possible to shift gears on this. Um, and and and so that's that's those are the two ways that I'm talking about that authentic connection.
SPEAKER_05Is is there this is gonna this is all self-gratification because I got like she I feel like she should invoice you at the end of this. Horrible. Like he's he's asking for friends. No, yeah, I'm this not me. Like our students do. Our students are like, I got questions. So let's say if someone I don't know. But if someone I I had an experience with my son, this tell me if I did good, just tell me I'm a good parent. Just please confirm it for me. No, no, the the you know, this I this ideal that, you know, sharing some of your own, if if not like, you know, all out failures, but like slip-ups, you know. Uh this this weekend after the game, uh, Cairo, my oldest son, was uh he was frustrated, but I think what was spilling over from the frustration was the anger. And it was spilling over and kind of spoiling into our family dynamic, you know, where we're all kind of like tired and hungry and you know, hot, you know, been there all day. But he's angry, and his anger is spilling over into like his siblings, and you know, he's kind of being a little snippy. And so uh we went get some food and we had a conversation about dude. I I used to I remember when I was a an athlete being angry, and when I was angry, sometimes mom, because me and my my wife dated when I was in college, sometimes mom would get the brunt of like my anger, you know, and it just it wasn't fair to her, you know, and it and it created so much distance between the two of us. You know, sometimes mom wouldn't even talk to me after games, you know, and I just I would hate for you to feel that distance between us, you know, and between your siblings if you let the anger kind of spill into the family, you know. And he just looked at me like, yeah. Yeah. And I was like, we can talk about the anger, you know. Uh that's the perks of having like a a therapist as a dad. Because you could lead them a different, you know, because you could do the same thing with a four-year-old or a two-year-old, you know, just in different language. Yeah. But but you couldn't do that if you didn't step away. Well, that's you know that mean that's the interesting part about the book because the title was like step away. But I think there's this like counterculture in a way that says like lean in.
SPEAKER_02Well, exactly. It's like it's like you're you're stepping away to really care for yourself and a way that allows you to lean in. Absolutely. That's the key.
SPEAKER_05Yep. That's it. Yeah. That's the key. Yeah. I don't if I hadn't done the work on myself about my anger spilling into like other areas of my life when I felt disappointed because of a loss, then I'm not sure I would have been able to kind of lean in, you know, in in that way. You know?
SPEAKER_02Exactly. That's that's 100% spot on. That's it.
SPEAKER_05But but what do you do? And maybe talk about maybe you can talk about this a little bit. What do you do with kids that are a little bit resistant to the parent? Like to just the parent in general. Just can can I can I add a a caveat to that? Sure. Like when let's say somebody's listening to this right now, right, and and they're going to get the book and they're suddenly realizing I've done a lot of pulling back. I've done a lot of I haven't stepped away. I haven't leaned in I've met my kids' anger or frustration or, you know, competitiveness with uh direction or advice and we don't have an authentic connection. You know, how do you and juice tell me if this isn't getting to the spirit of your question how do you turn the ship around?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05You know, what do you do? How do you go, okay, game time on Saturday, we got a tournament, what do I do differently? You know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And it's it's it's um I guess the the easiest way to say it is it's a process. Sure. And just really sitting with your child differently, listening differently, um reminding yourself that it's your your job in this situation is to listen first, understand their experiences, where they're coming from, and then kind of redirect from there. It's not like a button we can push like okay I've been this way and now I'm going to be this way. But it's kind of a process which has to evolve moving in that other direction starts by listening and giving your child that sense that you're there and you're open and you're not necessarily going to lecture, provide step-by-step solutions for how to fix X, Y, or Z problem or what they have to do differently? Start by listening and evolve from there.
SPEAKER_05Was there a um while you were writing this book, was there a moment in your history with your with your boys that you were like oh I could have done that I could have done that differently who am I writing to now you know like in the main one of the moments back in like the early 2000s where you were like oh wow I can't believe can you talk to us a little bit about that one moment?
SPEAKER_02Yeah yeah no a hundred percent and I mean there were definitely moments um where I was reacting much more than I should have been than I when I could have been responding had I been creating that more level um foundation for myself but I was exhausted I was overwhelmed I was you know all these things that I and so it's it's a question of trying to preempt though those moments by creating that solid foundation of you know doing the things for yourself within your own unique context that are going to allow you to optimize as a parent but absolutely you know I mean moments where you know we're all tired and hungry and the homework is hard and it's kind of like okay well let me see it. Okay, yeah how about this you know as opposed to creating space and time acknowledging that it's hard and then giving the giving one of the kids giving my child who was struggling with the homework the space to work on it a little bit while I maybe went off and start to dinner or what have you back in as opposed to trying to swoop in and like get it all done so that we could move on. You know that kind of thing. So there are many moments like that in similar kind of spaces but that's that's kind of the the big point there is you know preempting that kind of thing by taking that space to create that resilient lifestyle lens that's going to allow you to show up the way you want to that's the the like the stepping away of things of you know like you're I mean it is tough.
SPEAKER_05You know you're like you got dinner going you got homework being done your kids not really getting a particular point in like geometry or something you hadn't taken a shower you know like just in it man you know there's some there's something there's something in there and like here's what I appreciate about you know the the theme of the book and I hope that uh the listeners will go and get it. You know I've read Bounce you know and it's good you know because it does um I don't know it it the underlying message to me is struggle isn't always bad and there's opportunity in it. And I think I've read it before I was a parent right and um there's something in there if you allow it to happen watching your kid struggle and watching them see the opportunity I mean it it's it's emotional. You know what I mean? Like you know I was you know my kids are running and I was watching them run and there was this kid and you know you know the kid he's got the neon green shoes on he's got the arms you know and I was like this kid's gonna be fast you know and my son is excited he's running on pure hope he's got a song in his heart you know and he's running to the temple of that song he doesn't care you know and so he's running and I'm suddenly realizing that like I oh I'm I'm the only parent that's on the court screaming you know and I I am so excited about to put both your knees out oh gosh I'm like let's go Ken you know and this kid with the with the shoes is in front you know and I'm like let's go Ken I'm like run your race boy you know and I'm screaming at him and I this was the first time because he was nervous in those first like what if I lose what if you know and this was the first time I saw it in him you know uh he was running kids in first place I'm screaming at him and I see him look at the kid in front of him and something changed. There was something inside of him that had nothing to do with me and I got really quiet. I'm tearing up you know I'm I'm stepping back now and I'm watching him just catch up to this kid just step by step he's catching up to this and the thing that was once you know the this this kind of big insurmountable like what if I lose what would that mean for me and I think what he was saying what I'm assuming he's saying is what would that mean for us right you know you and me dad if I lose you know turned into a opportunity of you know and he and he did he passed the kid up and he won and I don't think I was really proud of him winning I was more proud of him making the choice in his head that this is an opportunity you know and watching that I think it's part of the beauty of the whole experience at the end of the book you start to be more mindful of those exp of those moments you know what I mean like you want to be a part of them more.
SPEAKER_02Yes you know yes you know as opposed to trying to make them happen 100% absolutely to be a part of as opposed to yeah pushing to make it happen.
SPEAKER_05Yeah absolutely yeah yeah huh all right well we got other stuff to do right no you got stuff to do Kate oh you don't only I'm aggressively avoiding I have to teach I have to teach a graduate class at one and I have to prepare for my lecture and I'm aggressively avoiding it. Kate give me another reason to avoid just see it as an opportunity you know this challenge. Nah this was so great thank you so much I mean I can't even you know begin to say uh thank you because I do think it it is um an important message not just for athletes or for parents but for anybody who's struggling or going through something where they need some resiliency you know they need to step away can you can you tell the listener like if they want more of you where can they find you where can they find your books? Where can they listen to you?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely so um they can find me on my website www katelundspeaks.com so I'm there information on both the books is there books are available on Amazon or really anywhere books are sold.
SPEAKER_05And then I'm also very very um active and available through LinkedIn okay yeah so students can just reach out to you because I have a certain set of students that'll probably reach out to you um you know just to like hey I heard you on the on the on the cast like would love to connect with you um I'll send some students your way sounds great yeah very happy to do that anytime cool all right anything anything else Jude anything you want to you want to blabber on about no just thank you yeah like seriously I mean this was uh for me more uh validating and you know uh that than anything you know because you do you wonder you have all this training and I tell students that like dude I teach the lifespan class sometimes and it's like I don't know what I'm doing half the time as a parent. Yeah you know so it's okay you know it's okay.
SPEAKER_02It's okay exactly that's exactly spot on.
SPEAKER_05Oh well thanks Kate I appreciate it let me go ahead and stop the recording so we can capture the Well I wanted to let you know I appreciate that
