The Sound Mind
Welcome to The Sound Mind, a podcast that provides a unique perspective about traversing this crazy thing we call a ‘career in music’ without compromising your happiness and mental health.
The Sound Mind
#18 The Quest for Achievement, Balancing Ambition and Contentment
In this episode we dissect the intricacies of success, failure, and the pursuit of recognition, all through the lens of our creative endeavours. Reflecting on the overbearing influence of ego on our sense of fulfilment. Listen in as we discuss the paradox of balancing our ambitions with contentment, and the constant dance between personal achievements and the allure of public recognition.
We share the profound emotional journey that creativity entails, from wrestling with self-doubt to the liberation that comes with embracing uncertainty. We explore the art of recalibrating our success metrics and finding joy in the creative process - a journey of letting go and celebrating the paths our lives take.
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Marcus: https://www.instagram.com/marcus_hedges_composer
yeah, you just think of it like a, like the metaphor for, like a car and then a destination. So, like, he focused on making sure the car was like, well kept, like the energies, the, the engines all taken care of, oils checked, you know, like the best tires you can get, and then they got to that destination.
Speaker 2:As a result of that, bro that is a that's a really good analogy, because, yeah, you could focus so wholeheartedly on that destination. But if the good analogy because, yeah, you could focus so wholeheartedly on that destination, but if the tires are flat and you're out of petrol, you're not going to get there.
Speaker 1:So he just shifted his focus, and what a beautiful full circle way to come back to. The fact of shifting focus is probably what you know is probably the answer to it. Did you play sakura?
Speaker 2:yes, I did play um sakura I never got around to it bro, it's so hard yeah because I played it after I played. Did I play it after I played dark souls 3? Maybe, um, but yeah, the the. Because I played it after I played. Did I play it after I played Dark Souls 3? Maybe, but yeah, the, just getting the powering down is so, so hard, yeah the games like that are like super high reward, aren't they?
Speaker 1:oh man, it's so satisfying like when I was playing Elden Ring for the first time and getting absolutely destroyed, like because that was my first souls game, so I had really no concept of how important like parrying and dodging and stuff like that actually is I was like oh okay, this is no joke, like it's a full-on skill, but I would the start of that game. You get destroyed by like there's little fortress bitters in there.
Speaker 2:Oh, when you come out of the lift and there's the dude on the horse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you run past him and then there's like a little like there's like an archway up to the castle or whatever and there's just like a couple of guards walking around this like this little I don't know village that's a bit destroyed. And I remember trying to do like trying to survive that so many times and each time I would do get stronger in the game, I'd go just back to that first bit and just destroy everybody. Yeah, yeah, I love, I love the old ring they're so, so satisfying.
Speaker 2:I think I get so much satisfaction from those games because, I don't know maybe from just putting so much time into getting good at instruments it's made me realise that delayed gratification is so much more satisfying. So just playing a game where there's no difficulty level. It's like. This is how hard it is If you can't if you can't do it at this level, then like it's not for you yeah, exactly, and like being able to take that from being something that, like just you can't even compute how to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so involved yeah, in terms of like you learn all of the moves exactly, yeah, and it's like I got a role at the right time.
Speaker 1:It's like a second either side of that and you're dead um, it's so satisfying I'm playing um, well, at least I was before I started playing bold escape, but, um, I've been playing, uh, god, what's it called? It's completely gone out my head. Um, s and uh, it's basically um, so it's a martial arts game and it's so good. Um, basically what? The, the, the, the sort of premise is that, um, it's like a revenge film, typical Kung Fu revenge film, but you, um, every time you die, you get a little bit older oh man, games that have that insecure every time you die.
Speaker 2:You get like. You get like. This poison starts like, just like oh, interesting I can't think of what it's called, but it just. I hate it because it means that every time you die you just get worse and worse so in this one like in this one, as you get older you become like more knowledgeable okay so like your damage increases but your health goes down.
Speaker 1:So like by the end of it you're like 75 and you're like absolutely destroying everybody. But if you get, hit, you're done yeah, you're done.
Speaker 1:But that game, a lot of that is about timing and at the start, like I was like this game's impossible. There's no, there's just no way I'm going to be able to like get past this first boss and then you learn the pacing of the game. You learn, like you know when, when to when to press specific buttons to parry, and then by the end of it I'm like rinsing through all these people. Like there's actually skill here.
Speaker 2:You know it's not, it's not just button bashing. You go back to the first one. You're like oh, this is easy yeah, exactly, exactly so we're going to talk about video games for the entirety of uh of this episode I've just seen the.
Speaker 1:It's the metronome on yeah, you shouldn't be able to hear it no, no, I just saw it clip in, so I was like oh dear I'll turn it off, just just. It's bothering me. Supposed to avoid that? Supposed to avoid the red, um, yeah, so yeah. Well, I mean, it's always good to start off on some video game chat, have you? Have you had much time for video games at the moment, or?
Speaker 2:uh, most of the games I want to play now on ps5.
Speaker 1:So I'm like yeah, yeah, my sort of peer pressure continues with that I think you need to get yourself on there, man yeah, yeah, we'll see, we'll see a lot of catching up to do I do, I definitely do um that's it. I haven't had much time to play over the last sort of week or two. I've just been like wanting to chill and do nothing. Um what?
Speaker 2:what in downtime or just generally?
Speaker 1:yeah, downtime yeah just like once I've finished all the work, then I just kind of want to like either go and do stuff, like go to the gym or go to jujitsu and stuff, or I want to sit and watch some ufc and do some stretching and like I mean, I don't know like sometimes a game you have to put, give quite a, quite a lot of yourself to it yeah, exactly I remember times playing like soulsborne games and being again like really stressed by and be like this is meant to be, like my relaxing yeah, you're not wrong like that's the problem with those kind of games where you're like they're very skill-based, so it's quite easy to blame yourself when, yeah, it's quite stressful.
Speaker 1:Or, like you know, say you've tried to beat this boss like 10, 15 times in a row and he's almost dead, like that's straight up adrenaline dump.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, it's, it's. It's good for, like, dealing with defeat multiple times and just failure, repeated failure, because you know that's life at the end of the day, that's life all you gotta do is beat it one time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, on that note, I've been thinking a lot about success and failure at the moment and, yeah, I don't know, like what, what those terms mean, especially like what success means. Like what, what am I working towards? Like, where am I trying to actually get to? Where will I get to? Where I'm like, yes, I'm happy with this, this is I'm, this is satisfying the desires that I have, and is that a point that is actually tangible?
Speaker 2:Uh, and trying to define it a little bit clearer, because I think if, like, without having a, a definition, it's easy to just persevere just down this like blind and this endless cavern where there's never a point where you actually are like content or happy, or like like content with where you've got to, uh, so, yeah, I've been thinking a lot about that. I haven't quite got got an answer to it yet, but I think that a lot of my definition of it is too tightly tied to to ego and it makes it so much harder because you know, like, if you, let's say, you release some music that you're super happy with, like really proud of, et cetera, and then it doesn't perform well, it should be enough that you're really proud of what you created.
Speaker 2:I think that it not doing well is that's like your ego kind of wanting to get the recognition of it, and even though I think it's okay to want the recognition of something that you've created, I think it's a slippery slope when you're too reliant on it for your contentment and your happiness.
Speaker 1:Huh, that's really that. I was just as you were talking about that. There I was like I was trying to drill down into like that. Like I feel like fundamentally they're different things. Feeling success for releasing something is different from quantifiable success on the release of a piece of music, you know?
Speaker 2:um, yeah, when people engage with it yeah, yeah, one's in your control and one isn't right, and can you turn either of those off?
Speaker 1:I guess my point is, maybe if you were only concerned with the success of I've released a bit of music and that is the success, then does that take the edge off ambition?
Speaker 2:I think this is the, this is totally the like, the crux of the point. Like, yeah, can you have that and still persevere with the same level of? Uh, maybe urgency isn't quite the right word, but like, something like that like yeah, like where?
Speaker 1:like where do you aim if the bar is low enough that you're just releasing music in the first place that you're happy with?
Speaker 2:I guess the the the difficulty lies in like it's. It's easy to look at all these success stories of somebody that like they just you know, they just kept pushing, they kept pushing and like finally it just they made it and it was all worth it and they, they were, they, they felt like, valued as a human. But for every story, like, it's just going to make you miserable. And I wonder if there's a way of persevering with exactly the same level of intensity, but just shifting the goalposts to, instead of it being focused on things that you can't control, focus on things that you can control and I feel like, conversely, you'll be more likely to reach the place that you want to reach because you will be doing it without this high level of anxiety and self-doubt and self-criticism over something that you don't have any control over something you don't have any control of, exactly yeah, yeah, like focusing, yeah, like sort of taking the focus from that stuff that you, you can't control and then and then refocusing it on stuff you can control.
Speaker 1:This, yeah, I, I, yeah, I guess, yeah, I, I see where you're coming from with that for sure.
Speaker 2:I definitely have.
Speaker 1:Is this my water? That is your water, bro. It's not there from two weeks ago.
Speaker 2:I think it's really easy.
Speaker 2:I naturally get this like aversion to that as a concept because I'm like I don't want to lose, like my edge, whatever like this because ambition, but I I don't believe that ambition has to come so wholeheartedly from a place of, uh, not feeling like you're good enough. I feel like there's a more positive and optimistic approach with being ambitious that allows you to also, kind of like, enjoy it along the way and not be quite so devastated when something doesn't go to plan. I read this story of. I can't think of the book or the writer it's probably math is the.
Speaker 2:But there was this writer who wrote this book and took it to loads of publishers this was maybe like 75 years ago or something and all the publishers turned it down and he was so devastated by it that he killed himself. And then his mum found the book after after he'd killed himself and, like, made it her mission to kind of get it published, ended up getting published, won a Pulitzer Prize, all this stuff, but like he's, he's not there to enjoy any of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't know. I don't know quite what the moral of the story is, but like patience, the patience. But I don't know quite what the moral of the story is, but like Patience, patience. But I don't even know if Maybe just not the expectation that you need to reach that. And this is like I 100% have that very high expectation of getting to this whatever ethereal level of success, but I'm definitely very aware of the fact that it does not bring me any more joy in my life.
Speaker 1:in fact, it's the opposite and we've spoken so many times about how the goalposts consistently move yeah, anyway, yeah yeah, um, I don't know. Maybe there's something to be said for, uh, bridging that gap? What? By measurable success, bite size success, where you know. Perhaps that goes hand in hand with things that you can control, um, so that you're not so focused on this massive zoomed out version of, like you know, something that somebody works their whole entire life to get to. Um, maybe that, maybe that's some of the answer yeah, yeah, yeah well like what, what does what does your?
Speaker 1:what? What have you been guilty of in terms of you know, um, what's your level of success? Level of success looking like to the point where it's probably not helping you so much?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, if I think back to when I was maybe like 18 or something, I remember, like occasionally just having this anxiety of like I don't really know what I am, I'm necessarily working towards. I just know I want to do something with music. Like I don't know what, I just want to be able, like, yeah, do, like, make a living off of music. Um, so, in a lot of ways, like I'm there, if I'm thinking of it in those terms, I'm making a living off music and I'm like I'm enjoying the work.
Speaker 2:I do more every year because I'm making sure that any time that I'm starting to get sick of what I'm doing, I I'm moving over to, I'm switching it and just trying to pursue as much work as possible. That brings me this like gratification of, like you know, enjoying the process, working with people that I like, et cetera. But I definitely feel like I require more validation from a larger source of people, and that's something that, like I find it hard to regress in any area of my life. You know, like if I move into a flat of a certain quality, I'm like I can't go back to something that's not as good as this. I think it's literally just my ego taking a hit. You know like I'm, like I don't want to regress. Every step wants, like needs to be forward.
Speaker 2:So I feel like I'm moving in the right direction so when it comes to uh like performance of music, or performance of like uh content, or or like anything within those realms that you can't rely on, it just consistently getting better, like every every year. Everything changes and it becomes harder, mom's, more saturated.
Speaker 1:It's famously not linear.
Speaker 2:It's not linear whatsoever which can work in your favor, but it can also not. And I think I'm. I guess I'm having like a bit of a identity crisis with starting my solo project the last couple of years and having put so many years into the band to, to, to have another thing. That's like just starting from scratch. It's making me have to redefine uh, what success is?
Speaker 2:because I've like yeah, and it's like it's really uncomfortable start like just releasing stuff and just having to redefine what I think of as something doing well or not doing well.
Speaker 2:Um yeah, that's tough as well, 100% man, and I'm like I'm I'm the kind of person I am. I will persevere through it and I will be as patient as I can, but like uh, it's, it's definitely very uncomfortable. I think, on a certain degree, like I pivot between maybe this is just a being creative thing or being a freelance or being self-employed, but I definitely will just pivot between feeling like a failure and I'm feeling like kind of feeling happy with the things that I've done. But I guess in the last few weeks maybe I'm just like kind of getting burnt out a bit and just need a bit of a break. I'm definitely feeling more. I'm feeling less positively towards the achievements that I've had.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, maybe you're being guilty of getting obsessed with the big picture.
Speaker 2:I think this is exactly why it's in my head.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, I think this is exactly why it's in my head.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, I mean it sounds that way and I think that it's a really natural thing to feel.
Speaker 1:I think that a byproduct of being so driven and so, like you know, have perfectionist tendencies, a byproduct of that is sometimes you can be kind of like your own worst enemy and the love kind of seeps from the process a little bit.
Speaker 1:And I absolutely think that a break is a good thing, I mean dependent on. I mean it can be as simple as just not doing something for a couple of days, but sometimes, like in my own experience, taking a break from something and then coming back to it and you have this like kind of new lease of life, yeah, and excitement for what you're doing. That was you were doing this, trying to do the same thing a couple of days ago, but your headspace was fucked. You know like definitely you're all over the place, you're not thinking about the right things, and then you go away and you come back to it and then you kind of rediscover the excitement and stuff and the passion which I think is like maybe they're the more kind of measurable aspects of success, like oh hey, I'm, I'm here, like I'm in my own studio, I'm doing my own piece of music yeah you know, and yeah, I have big ambitions and yeah, like you know, I see myself in in uh in this life.
Speaker 1:You know, success wise, let later down the line, but appreciating, like it's, practicing gratitude, I think maybe there are more sort of anti-ego things you can do for sure, because I think I definitely find that it's easy to lose sight of why you're doing it when you get caught up in this.
Speaker 2:Because you're it's like you're trying to impress people that you don't really like. You don't particularly care about their opinions because you don't know them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like this weird kind of hybrid between, like I'm doing something that I want to do, like I'm creating something that I want to create to semi impress other people, so it's like this kind of like this hybrid, hybrid thing.
Speaker 2:I don't know it's really, it's, yeah, it's. I think it can really kind of tie you up mentally and I've been definitely feeling that just um, yeah, you can just get lost in that process a bit. And then I've had a few moments in the last month or two where I've been like okay, like, let me just redefine like what. Like, what am I trying to do here and why and why is it important to me? Like what, what am I trying to get out of this? Why did I start doing these things?
Speaker 2:and just try and like answer these questions because I think it the the reason that you started doing it should be like. I think that should be kept in your head because it's like, the more purposefully you do stuff, um, I think the easier it is to deal with. Uh, these, these, like these stresses and just and to stay consistent.
Speaker 1:I think as well, like you know, when you're giving the example of you go in the you know sort of starting your solo project and you've had you know a level of success with the band and then you're essentially your barometer for success is different and you have to adjust that for your solo project, similarly with with with my stuff as well yeah the trend orchestra, like, as an example of goalposts moving, like I was really excited to reach a million streams like I can remember that really really well.
Speaker 1:But my dad made me a little gold disc and it and it had like one million streams I love that and now, and, and and now.
Speaker 1:Like I don't get the same kick out of that cool right now I'm starting this new project, two things is like, have to, you have to let go of that ego, like I can't be going into this. This first thing and being like, oh, you know, I want it. I want it because my, my level of success for the trend orchestra is completely different to this. So, and another thing I want to say about it is, I think that I'm you know, I'm doing this new thing like I'm really excited about it. It's the, the, you know, the concept album I'm doing, working with different vocalists, something I really want to do.
Speaker 1:But I'd be lying if I said that there wasn't times where I've been like, oh, what's the point? You know, like I'm starting again. What's like, what's the point? And that's me getting in my own head and that's me pitting it against something that I've built over the last 10 years. And, um, I think that it's I don't know, like I catch myself doing it and I and I really don't like it, and like I'm trying really hard at something that has no traction yet yeah and so, like I, I'm guilty then of focusing on the bigger picture, like the this I want this to be really, really successful.
Speaker 1:When I'm actually most happiest, when I'm thinking about the most, the more immediate stuff like oh, have you know, is the album artwork on the way, like how great is this working with this new artist and stuff, um, I don't know, I I don't know if there's like a, an overarching point that I'm trying to make, but I just think it connects really well to the, the moving of the goalposts and definitely, you know, measurable success and that kind of thing what's kind of sad, like, as you just said, like the thing that you're enjoying is the immediate stuff, like making the music and like doing this, like putting your creativity into this new thing, but to a certain degree, by focusing too too much on the big picture, you're sapping the joy out of it yeah, like comes along and just like kicks me in the shins you know,
Speaker 2:I'm like, oh, exactly but it's like, even with, with, with something underperforming you, you, you kind of like you get two levels of pain you get the pain of it just happening and then you get the pain of like beating yourself about it. So it's like you make it so much harder for yourself. This I guess this is my point Like you can like, the more that you're focused on this stuff, you're just going to create more and more suffering in your own mind. Where, like, there was a really great phrase in, uh, embracing uncertainty, susan jeffers, she said I can't remember if it was, if she was quote, quoting somebody else or if it was her thing, but she, uh, yeah, she said wear the, wear the world like a loose garment interesting, which I really like, poetic, that I really like it so, like you know, just don't don't get so uptight about everything.
Speaker 2:It doesn't have to be this is the other side of it like I like the thought of you know you go into I don't know, know, like Greece or somewhere, somewhere where there's been like ancient civilization.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Think of all these empires that have been and gone, all these, like, all these people that like lusted for greatness and power and all of these things. I don't fucking know who they are, yeah, yeah. Like okay, a few people have have still known. People have still known, but like I mean, firstly, that doesn't even. I feel like that really just is not relevant because they're not there, they don't get to enjoy that.
Speaker 2:No no, I think it's so easy to get caught up feeling like everything you're doing is really important and really serious, but like it's not going to matter in like a hundred years A hundred, it's so weird, I was talking.
Speaker 1:I was talking to somebody about this like a couple of days ago, and it is like I think we get wrapped up in thinking that we are like the world is for us and we are this main character, and that's not the case. We are a tiny, like we're a cell on something much more important and bigger than we are, and you can look at that two ways. You can look at it as like, oh shit, um what's the point?
Speaker 2:what's the?
Speaker 1:point. On the flip side of that, it's freeing, you know and that, and like to be sort of free from the ego and free from the constraints. And you know, you see some, you meet some people throughout life, don't you? And you're like that guy does not give a shit and he looks like he's having the best time, totally, and that's, in my opinion, like like people that are like kind of beating the game of life a little bit. It's like you, you sort of put it on easy mode or you know something within that. I really like that as a metaphor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, by having all this extra level of suffering that you put on yourself, by undermining all the self-criticisms of not achieving something, you're just adding another level of difficulty to life.
Speaker 1:Unnecessarily, unnecessarily yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's all just tied up with the ego and what you feel like you deserve and you should get. Um, I mean, this is that's literally what the whole of mark manson's the solo I'm not giving a fuck.
Speaker 2:It's one of my favorite books it's yeah, it's great man, and it's yeah, as you say, the people that are winning at life are the ones that just like don't seem to care. It's like everything's just a bonus. I think that that should be the way that people look at stuff more. You do the thing like you, you're, you're like make, you're able to just create music for a living, and that's incredible.
Speaker 1:Anything above that is a bonus it's true, and but you know what it's? It's like this whole mentality of kind of, you know, not giving a shit what people think and how freeing that is. Conceptually that sounds super simple, but it's like it's like deeply ingrained in us to really care about what people think. And especially now, in the age of social media, like there's a lot of you know, like there's a lot of judgment built into our lives, it's hard not to, and so I think it takes a lot of practice, it takes a lot of embracing discomfort, um, and betting on yourself and all that kind of stuff, um 100 yeah, 100.
Speaker 2:What see, one of the things that, um, then, one of the things that still I find difficult uh accepting, is so many of the people that are out here um talking about these concepts, um are people that are already really successful. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah and I feel like it's really, probably really easy to have obtained this like lofty level of success and then be like it doesn't matter. There was a quote, I can't remember, but it was something like it's a mountain that you have to climb to realize that you didn't need to.
Speaker 2:You have to reach the summit before you have that realization summit.
Speaker 1:Before you have that realization. You ever, if you ever, written a piece of music right and then gone like, and they're like, oh, like, like, tell me about the piece of music and you just make up some shit. You know, you're just like, yeah, like I know the cello's there. I was just thinking about, like, just you know, just there's a deep melancholy yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It wasn't, there was nothing. But and then I kind of think about these guys. It's like yeah, like in that kind of nonlinear fashion, have ended up in this position of success. They've, for whatever reason, and then not not all of them, obviously but then they kind of create this Well thought out, well structured story for how, step by step, they got there, when actually the sort of I don't know the less predictable aspects of life were the reason that they. They got there.
Speaker 2:Or yeah, yeah you know, I mean, does that make sense? Yeah, no, I, I totally get you. I think, yes, I guess it's hard, um, it's hard knowing, like, what were the reasons, like what were the? There's so many parameters. It's hard to know what were the ones that got them there exactly so.
Speaker 1:There's a there's a little bit of backwards engineering going in where they're like.
Speaker 2:Oh, this is kind of this is this is what I did, when actually it probably wasn't as on the nose as what they're saying it's true I I feel like I might have said this last week, but but just to reference it, the American football coach who took the worst team in the league and in like two seasons.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, they won the Super Bowl. I don't think he did.
Speaker 2:I think we were talking about it outside of this team that was like the worst in the league. This coach came in in like two or three seasons. They won the Super Bowl and he was very clear in the fact that he didn't. That wasn't his aim and literally in Ego is the Enemy, ryan Holiday. He was saying that the coach was very clear that he wasn't doing this reverse engineering thing of being like oh yeah, this was my plan. All along it was like no, no, no, I just focused on the stuff that was important and and this was like the byproduct of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you just think of it like a, like the metaphor for like a car and then a destination. So, like he focused on making sure the car was like well kept, like the engines were taken care of, oils checked, you know, like the best tires you can get.
Speaker 2:And then they got to that destination as a result of that. Bro, that's a really good analogy, because, yeah, you could focus so wholeheartedly on that destination, but if the tires are flat and you're out of petrol. You're not going to get that.
Speaker 1:So he just shifted his focus, and what a beautiful, full circle way to come back to the fact of shifting focus is probably what you know is probably the answer to it shifting focus onto, onto the things that actually matter and are within your control. Within his control was was the team yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Um, there were just within that story as well, there was. There was one point that I really liked. So I think the season before he came on, I think they they'd like won two games and lost 16 I think, it was something like that. And then the first, at the end of the first season that he was the coach. They won two and lost 16.
Speaker 2:It was exactly the same okay and yeah, ryan holiday was saying like, like, just imagine, like you've put all of these things in the practice, you've worked so hard and it was and literally no progress made from the the previous coach who like got sacked yeah, um, but he was. He said that the coach was was focusing on things. So the metric of like win or lose is such an obvious one, but there's so many more under the surface variables that might be like pointing in, like a positive direction. Like you know, progress is being made. Team morale Exactly.
Speaker 2:There's so many things and they were just under the surface. You know it wasn't so visible, but you know you can feel like you're making progress, even if on the surface it doesn't seem like you are. But it's hard sometimes to feel that because, like, externally it doesn't seem like you are. But I think a lot of the time those are the things. If you can focus on those things for long enough, then, like with sometimes, if you're not getting that external instant gratification of like progress is being made, it's so much harder to stick to it, even if, if you really really dig deep, you're like no, no, like I'm getting better, like everything is moving in a good direction and I'm also enjoying it, like those should probably be the metrics that are more important because you can actually do something about those ones yeah, 100, 100 um yeah, man, that's kind of.
Speaker 2:I feel like that's kind of that point, yeah like not just.
Speaker 1:It came came to a real nice conclusion. Did we just solve?
Speaker 2:success. Nothing more to be said on the topic no, it's true, though I don't know.
Speaker 1:I it's like I definitely have had a few kind of with this new project, like I'm like I'm really enjoying it, and then sometimes I like a bit hard on myself because I'm like, oh yeah, you're really enjoying this, but like what if it's not successful? Or like and then that kind of that does sort of suck the joy out of it.
Speaker 2:But I completely like how, how, how long could I go through doing this without getting anything back?
Speaker 1:totally, totally, which is uh but yeah, like you see that, you see, you see the consistency of people you know, like you you're, I think. I think youtube's a good example where people you know maybe don't have very many followers, but they are consistent. Their videos don't really change that much, but maybe the changes are happening behind the scenes and that, in conjunction with being consistent over a long period of time, like because they're able to concentrate on those two things, then the kind of surge in followers and stuff happens as a result.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think it's like whatever, whatever way you can maintain that over a long period of time, while also being like thinking positively towards it that's when you win I was thinking over back over like the my, my like whole career as a musician and artist and producer and there has been a few occasions that I've kind of backed myself into a corner and had to just like stop doing something because it was just got too much and I was putting too much value on the external. So the solo project I had like 10 years ago I mean in some ways it was in a really important pivot but I was releasing music and like the first thing that I put out with that project did like read. I mean it kind of got some like industry attention. I guess that would be the. I didn't, I never really had a fan base with that project, but it got some industry attention. And then every kind of every project I put out after that it's nothing, it wasn't really going anywhere.
Speaker 2:And it kind of came to his head where I had this one song. I was like this man, this is the song, this is the song. And then it absolutely just like flopped and didn't do anything. And I kind of backed myself to this corner where I put so much on this song that when it didn't do well, I was like it's over, yeah, I can't, I can't move on from this and so I stopped doing the project. But the positive thing was that that was the, that was the catalyst that made me pursue being like a good musician. Like before then I was kind of mainly focused on writing and producing. Um, I just like my, my vocals and my just like like piano ability, my understanding of harmony all of these things were just like not there and that level of but kind of fueled my pursuit of being better. But then, at the same time, if I was able to pursue that, but well, like if I kept that project going since 2013, 2014, I mean yeah, like who knows what it could have done?
Speaker 2:yeah um, that's not something that I dwell on ever. But yeah, the only reason why I stopped was because, as time passed, I put so much value on the external. It meant that when we got to this last thing, I released because it didn't meet that expectation at all. It left me with no other option. It was like oh well, like this is all I care about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is it's done if it's.
Speaker 2:If it's not, yeah, if it's not ticking that box and there's no other boxes to tick yeah, yeah, yeah and you know, your only natural inclination is to to drop it for sure, and yeah, I don't know it's an interesting one, like again, like I say, like sometimes hitting that level of kind of like the bottom is it can be a really transformative, important transformative thing, yeah, totally um, but at the same time, like if if I was able to maintain some level of optimism and positivity towards it, maybe I could have just persevered and just kept releasing music no doubt, and it could have it could have kind of like become this other thing, I don't know.
Speaker 1:That's it, though. You know, for one hindsight is always 20-20. But like at that moment in time, like perhaps you didn't have the you know, the ability that you have now in terms of being able to look at something like that and go am I focusing on the right things?
Speaker 1:the right amount of self-awareness to do that in relation to your craft or whatever. So unfortunately that that wasn't a thing. But I there's no probably, you know there's there's no doubt that it could maybe have been a success had you had that level of ability that you do now. I just think that those kind of things where you know, over a long period of time you commit yourself to something, regardless, you'll get better at it and you know you'll. You'll iron out the creases, etc. Etc. And we've we've spoken I think it was last week about how important consistency is, especially with releasing content and music and stuff.
Speaker 2:So did you have so with? With the trend orchestra? Because what you, what? What year did you first release something?
Speaker 1:2012 2012?
Speaker 2:okay. So did you have moments like that, at points where stuff kind of like didn't meet your expectation? Or when you started it was your expectation so low already that everything was a was a bonus?
Speaker 1:um, my expectation, my expectation was really high at the start, right? So, yeah, I haven't thought about this in a while. It was really high at the start and I did a really short album. Uh, I spoke about this in another episode, but I did this really short album 12 tracks, short tracks and I was like this is great, took me ages to license it and, um, I released it and it there's nothing.
Speaker 1:It was nothing, it didn't. It made nothing for the first month and then the next month it made 12 and I was like and I and that to me, I was like, oh well, all that excitement has come to a head, it's shit. What's the point? Yeah, but I did enjoy doing them and it was good. I got other things out of it. It was good to practice it's good to, you know, practice my orchestral chops and my kind of programming and stuff within Logic, and I found it really nostalgic. So I was getting to listen to all these tracks and interact with these game franchises from when I was a kid, so I carried on doing it yeah and it wasn't until a good few months later that, um, I think there was like a hundred dollars.
Speaker 1:I was like, oh, you know, it's like I've. I think that that's cool so I just, I just knuckled down, I just, I, I can't, I just carried on doing it and doing it, and doing it, doing it, um did you?
Speaker 2:did you feel like every year, you, you were noticing, like I'm just trying to gauge, like whether you, whether you, whether the perseverance was coming because you were getting enough back from it that was motivating you to keep going, whether you were enjoying it as as its own pursuit enough to not care about that I would be lying if I said that it was, um, just one or the other, I think I think at the beginning it was definitely oh, I'm just enjoying it because I like doing it.
Speaker 1:You know it's getting me some beer money wicked. And then when I realized that people were listening to it and that, you know, I started getting requests and stuff, that created a new box for me to kind of pander to and tick, and I definitely did, and still do, get a kick out of creating something for the other people want to hear and that they enjoy and it gives them, you know. So I would say that I've gone through phases of it. Sometimes I'm really doing it because I just really love doing it and other times I'm doing it because I'm like I enjoy the fact that of seeing something perform quantifiably.
Speaker 1:So like the streams are high for this. There's always that part where it's like you release the album, you're like man. I hope the streams are good for this one. Yeah, I think it's a bit of a hybrid, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that makes sense. Um, yeah, I think it's a bit of a hybrid. For sure, I think that makes sense. I guess at the start it's usually going to be uh, especially if you're like younger and like a little bit more naive, I feel like it's usually going to be a more uh, pure reason, and then, as time passes, it kind of gets molded by yeah, by by other stuff that maybe puts you in a yeah, maybe you lose sight of that initial reason. I think that's a really, really easy thing to to do. Um, also, I think maybe like redefining it periodically, it may be a good way of just like getting back in touch with that and, um, not losing sight of, uh, what fuels you yeah and you know it very, it's very easily becomes like I'm fueled by like people, like like other people's validation, like other people that I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, validation, and yeah, I don't think anybody ever set out for that to be what they were going to be fueled by and it's, I don't think it's a, it's not a controllable metric, so I don't think it's a positive thing to be basing your level of contentment and happiness. Yeah, I think that's.
Speaker 1:I think maybe that's the differentiation, the the difference between contentment and happiness in what you're doing and success yes, do you know what?
Speaker 1:I mean, um, but yeah, I, I don't know. I think, um, with regard to the trend, orchestra, like and releasing music, there's definitely been a uh, a waiting to either side of it that I've been like I'm, because now that I've got such a, now that I'm not so reliant on an album doing well, um, I'm able to take my time with it and enjoy the passion side of it a little bit more yeah um.
Speaker 2:But when it comes to releasing the album, there is that other aspect where I'm like oh man, it does well, you know yeah, naturally I wonder like if, if it just if started, if I wonder how, like, yeah, the different way that you'd approach it, if, if it started kind of like not going so well yeah, yeah, um yeah, I think it's not gonna happen in full transparency, like the.
Speaker 1:You know, I've seen a little dip in the, in the streams, um, over the last year or so, and I know why that is is because I'm not doing the trend orchestra full time, like spending my time doing other things and um, and that's another thing I think about when I'm doing. I'm trying to build this new passion project. I'm like this passion project is an investment of my time that, you know, I hope pays out, I hope turns into something. So there is some pressure there.
Speaker 2:I could, I could just be doing trend orchestra stuff, I guess like if you, if you the doing the trend orchestra was never meant to be your focus. It was meant to be like something to just get get you better at it, kind of like get you known in the in the games world. So I think if it's done what it was supposed to do, pivoting off of it, while still be able to reap the benefits of it existing, yeah I feel like it's a no-brainer, because otherwise what you're just going to do that forever yeah, and that's the thing.
Speaker 1:Like I was explaining this, this whole project, this new project I'm doing, to somebody else the other day and I was explaining, I was like I kind of want to build something else, yeah, and and I think there's some joy to be had in in building something from scratch um, I think you've got to listen, to listen to your intuition on that yeah that's where you're kind of getting pulled.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's definitely worth worth pursuing it yeah, yeah, I just think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like the trident orchestra will always be something that I do in some capacity. Yeah, um, but I don't know. I think it's nice to explore new horizons. You grow as a musician, grows a person, whatever yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that you always gotta just um allow yourself to to pursue what like internally, what you're feeling like you want to put your time into, because it will just come out better, you know yeah if you're not feeling really passionate about pursuing a certain thing, there's a certain level of perseverance. You can push through that and be like no, no, I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna like, finish this thing and make it happen, but I don't know you also don't want to make yourself miserable?
Speaker 2:no gotta remember that you're going to be doing this because it's fun yeah, that's this, that's the thing, isn't it?
Speaker 1:it's, it's it's remembering that you are doing this because, for one, you get to do it, yeah, two, you're doing this because you, you enjoy it, and sometimes, though, you get kind of blinded by by these. You know these kind of illusions of of success.
Speaker 2:I think it's, yeah, it's very easy mirage yeah yeah, I think just bringing it back to like what like, yeah, what, what like what you initially were would were pursuing, and like what was what drew like drew you into that, then that's always like a good place to to return to when you need to the organic origin of of it in the first place exactly because normally like things like that, and it'll be the same with your solo projects.
Speaker 1:You know it's. It's born from like excitement yeah and you know, like a genuine passion for, for what you do.
Speaker 2:It's like, it's like a real natural thing other people are probably going to be more like likely to connect with something that came out of a place of excitement and passion rather than a place of, like, anxiety and yeah and and like metrics yeah, exactly it's like really not human kind of kind of thing 100 um, cool, well, we're probably about.
Speaker 1:We normally do about 50 minutes, don't we so? So we'll call it there. If you have any books, music topics, anything like that you think we should cover, then give us an email at thesoundmindpod at gmailcom. Cool See you on the next one.
Speaker 2:See you on the next one. Bye.