American Experiment Podcast
Why are so many Minnesota high school graduates unable to read or do math at grade level? Does Tim Walz actually think he's going to be the next president of the United States? And why does he keep swearing so much?
These are the kinds of hard-hitting questions we get into every week on the American Experiment Podcast, where we unpack the week's biggest stories, interview Minnesota's movers and shakers, and "stop the tape" on clips of our state's most ridiculous elected officials.
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American Experiment Podcast
Episode 120 - Walz's FINAL Budget Pitch
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Governor Walz's new budget backtracks on his past ideas??
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Welcome back! This week on the American Experiment Podcast…
This week we’re breaking down Governor Walz’s supplemental budget proposal, the truth behind Steve Simon’s voter registration claims, and a new lawsuit challenging Paid Family Leave. On the back half, we talk with Catrin Wigfall about two education initiatives that could help turn our schools around.
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00:00 - Welcome back!
01:09 - We respond to the allegations...
02:43 - Walz's supplemental budget proposal
09:43 - Steve Simon's voter registration lies
16:13 - NEW lawsuit challenging Paid Family Medial Leave
19:19 - Catrin Wigfall joins the show!
45:51 - See you next week!
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#minneapolis #governorwalz #walz #minnesota #legislature #capitol #mn #republicans #democrats #politics #gop #dfl #stpaul #culture #politics #fraud #corruption #committeemeeting #hearing #taxes
Welcome back to the American Experiment Podcast. Catherine, what's on the docket today? Well, this week we're breaking down Governor Walls' supplemental budget and what it means for Minnesota taxpayers. False claims made by Minnesota Secretary of State Steve Simon, and a new lawsuit over that bad paid family leave policy. On the back half, we talked to Kathryn Wigfall about all things education in this legislative session. Let's dive in.
SPEAKER_04If this is your first time joining us, welcome. Things are pretty crazy here in Minnesota, and we try to bring you a more sane perspective and take on things.
SPEAKER_03Good news for Minnesota recently, though, is like all over the country people are really freaking out about the TSA situation. We both recently traveled and I had zero issues in MSP. I feel like we're doing pretty well over here.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Finally, some good news out of this state. Yeah. I've experienced several airports over the last uh last couple weeks, several months, and uh MSP has it pretty good, I would say.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it is one of the nicest. But I do think, like, speaking of you being gone, I was gone last week as well. And so you guys heard from Bill and Isaac. They did a great job, but there were some allegations made about us that I think we should just address the show. Yeah, just kind of get out there and just like take them head on. So um let's play, let's play the tape, please. Um, Isaac, go ahead. Here's the thing about women women are insane.
SPEAKER_01Twin Cities News Talk a.m. 1130, 1035 FM. In studio this morning, we have uh RNC committeeman AK Kamara.
SPEAKER_00Good morning. I uh shout out to Grace and Catherine, real quick. Hopefully they're having great times in their vacations. Well, I know Grace is. She posted a photo on Italia.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what Catherine's doing. I think she's going to vacation or something. I wonder if they're both taking paid family medical leave. Right? Someone called John Hindrager now. Representative Max Primer in studio as well.
SPEAKER_03So we're not taking paid family medical leave. I just feel like we need to address it.
SPEAKER_04Should I have? Now I'm kind of thinking about it. Should I have said that I had like a family member in Italy that I mean, for the record, I was I was on my honeymoon, my very, you know, long-awaited honeymoon. That's why I was gone. Um, but yeah, now I'm now I'm thinking, I'm getting the idea. I should have maybe had the taxpayers of Minnesota, you know, help fund that time away from uh from my work here. Missed opportunity, maybe.
SPEAKER_03But for the record, we were not. We were just on vacation, okay? So that let that slander uh, you know, die there because it's it's it's not true.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, thanks for suggesting that though, guys, Max and AK, and John. If you also listeners, if you're not tuning into the John Justice show, we are on every single Friday morning, one or both of us, and uh we have a really good time, so you should check it out for sure. Very fun. Well, should we jump into it? First story? Dive in. Yeah, our first story this week is of course uh Governor Walls' supplemental budget proposal. Um this is noteworthy for a few different reasons. I think what's most uh we're gonna kind of walk through what it what it um the what the highlights of it, what it really comes down to. Um most notable, I think, is just the shift in tone that we've seen compared to his budgets from you know 2023, 2024. 23, of course, was the infamous, you know, off the cliff session. Um and at least at face value, this this supplemental budget proposal is is a little more toned down. Uh there's a lot of focus on fraud, of course, which is he's trying trying to come out strong on fraud. Um and it's it's a little bit more fiscally conservative. Again, that's just at first glance. So we're gonna get into the nitty-gritty of it. Um but sort of the insanity of the last few sessions that we've seen was walked back a tiny bit. And there's actually some specific proposals that he's you know undoing or uh or toning down a little bit, which I think American Experiment can partly take credit for. We had our you know off the cliff 2023 event tour going around the state talking about the insane stuff they did during that legislative session and then. Yeah, and also the door the doge events. Yes, and then the doge tour as well. So, you know, we've really we've really our economists, especially here at American Experiment, uh, John and Martha, have been on it for the last few years, pointing out the crazy things that were passed in these budgets. And it seems like they're finally toning it down.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's great to see that. I mean, we'll we'll see what happens. Um, this obviously isn't the final budget, this is just the governor's suggestion. So um we'll see what happens. But I was very happy to see some of those um changes he made compared to in prior years.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's worth noting. So he is, of course, like a lame duck governor. So even his own party is probably not gonna give too much weight to this proposal. But again, it's an it's it's an interesting marker of how things have shifted politically in Minnesota for this type of budget to be coming out. So, of course, Martha Angela Moley wrote about this at American Experiment AmericanExperiment.org. She went through kind of item by item and broke this all down. Um so on net, this budget reduces Minnesota's structural deficit by$372 million between 2026 and 2029. And the plan also includes several proposals to roll back costly measures enacted in that 2023 off-the-cliff session. So that sounds good. Sounds pretty good, right? Yeah. However, his budget barely makes a dent in the state's multi-billion dollar structural deficit. And most of the savings in his plan stem from, of course, new taxes.
SPEAKER_03I was gonna say, like, the the it also is a question of how we get there, you know? Like that that all sounds good, but is it because he wants to tax Minnesota citizens even more? Of course it is.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and the savings that don't come from new taxes that he's proposing would come from systemic changes that he they are predicting will estimate, you know, X number of dollars of savings. But those are just projections, so those could also fall short as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, or I saw in one of the projections not that long ago, remember we talked about how fraud was in their projection of like they're not gonna spend this money on fraud, so they'll be saving it. It's like, well, that's you know, faint praise.
SPEAKER_04But yeah, it's pretty interesting. And he's talking lots of money going towards, you know, anti-fraud initiatives, and part of that is these speculative savings, uh, which might not pan out at all. So we have changes to enhance Medicaid oversight that would that are estimated to save$172 million between 2026 and 2029. And another nearly 300 million will come from changes that curb overbilling. And again, like while these are very good changes, there is a risk that all of those savings could fall below projections, and then we'd kind of be up a creek if we are, you know, planning our state's budget based on these numbers that aren't official in.
SPEAKER_03By the way, look at that word overbilling. Um, Representative Kristen Robbins has talked about this a lot. That just means fraud. Like they use this word overbilling of like curb overbilling as if it's this delicate problem. That is fraud. People are committing fraud against our system, and we shouldn't just be kind of generally working to curb overbilling. The people who do that should go to jail.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Uh Governor Walls, of course, also proposed some new tax hikes. He wants to lower the state sales tax. Sounds good, but then also expand the tax base to include professional services such as attorneys and accountants. And so last year he introduced a very similar proposal to this, which John Phelan talked about extensively at Americansport.org. And this would have saved the average Minnesota family about$42 a year in reduced sales taxes, but it would have imposed a$620 tax on professional services. And it's such an interesting issue because I think it comes from this mindset that he has, the left has that, you know, oh, well, let's tax the higher earners, the attorneys. Um, not realizing that you don't have to be making a lot of money in Minnesota to take advantage of those services. Like if I get in a car crash, I'm probably gonna find a lawyer. Right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because what he's doing is he's expanding um what could be taxed. So right now, you know, it's only on goods, but he wants to expand that tax to services, particularly services from attorneys or like financial planners. He made a kind of a offhanded joke, because he's suggested this in the past. And he made a kind of offhanded joke at one of his press conferences in a past year that, you know, well, rich people use financial planners. Right. Like, not necessarily. Also, everyone needs attorneys for the most part. Like, all different kinds of people need attorneys. So it's not just like we're really targeting the rich because only the rich use lawyers.
SPEAKER_04He's also proposed a social media tax that could raise$244 million over the next four years. The revenue would be deposited, this is so weird. The revenue would be deposited into a special revenue fund managed by the Department of Employment and Economic Development to support, quote, workforce development initiatives targeted at workers who experience job loss due to artificial intelligence. Gosh, that feels like just opening up a can of worms, doesn't it? I uh if we're gonna be paying into a fund just to help people who are replaced by AI, I just I think it's gonna be a ballooning industry.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no kidding. I mean, the one thing about these two proposals is like you can tell you can tell he's kind of phoning it in a little bit because, you know, he's he's suggested them before. And these are things that he has thought should happen in the past, and they haven't, so hopefully, once again, they won't happen. Because I do think the whole AI thing, um, I don't know if you've seen the recent like Claude release. Are you familiar? That can like do all kinds of crazy stuff. It seems like it can replace just like whole people's jobs and careers. Um, I think that's gonna be like a like slightly bigger issue than just like taxing social media. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04It's it's it's it reads a little goofy. Yeah, it reads a little goofy.
SPEAKER_03Like he was trying to, you know, stay, stay with the times, but like not quite legitimate.
SPEAKER_04The last thing to note in this supplemental budget proposal is that, you know, ostensibly to improve affordability, which as we've talked about before is one of the number one issues, I think, for Minnesotans and most Americans this year, uh, Wallace has proposed expanding the child and dependent care tax credit. But as Martha points out, this change is unlikely to address high child care prices, but will further narrow the income tax base, worsening budget instability. So of course. It's all for show. Classic economics 101.
unknownYeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_04And that's the governor's uh supplemental budget proposal. Again, lame.govor, neither party is probably gonna listen to him too carefully on this. But it's a good, it's an interesting indicator of where we are politically.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, definitely. And seeing some of those changes, he maybe like toned it back a little bit. I think that's that's good. Um that indicates where he sees um the electorate electorate as having shifted, I think.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Uh another story we wanted to highlight this week uh comes from Bill Walsh at AmericanExperiment.org, who uh who again wonderfully hosted the show last week with Isaac. Thank you. Shout out to Bill. Bill and Isaac, shout out to Isaac. Um you might remember from the last few legislative sessions hearing about this automatic same automatic voter registration. Anytime a Minnesotan a Minnesotan comes into contact with the state government, they are now automatically registered to vote.
SPEAKER_03Which is a problem because you can get a um you can get a driver's license if you're not here legally. Right. So, you know, apparently there's a system that keeps this from happening, but w if you try and get those that data, those records, they won't give them to you. So it's not totally clear and transparent.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And there have been a lot of, there were a lot of concerns at the time when this was passed. Uh, but Secretary of State Steve Simon uh was, you know, the one pushing for this, this uh this automatic voter registration uh that replaced the like you had before you had to check a box in order to get you know registered to vote. Um so this this new automatic registration has been in place now for a few years. We've had a couple election cycles. And so Bill Walls dug into the data, again, AmericanExperiment.org, uh, to see how this is playing out in practice. Because when it was uh proposed and passed, Steve Simon made the point that, you know, if if you are uh if you care about election integrity, if you're concerned about voter fraud, this he says take with a grain of salt, this would be a really good thing because same-day voter registration is gonna go down by 80, 90 percent. It's pretty much crazy.
SPEAKER_03And same-day voter registration obviously is one of the things that if you care about election integrity, you see as really kind of problematic because you can just show up in Minnesota and someone vouches for you, says, Yeah, I know they live there, and get in and vote. And so I think that was really a factor in why this was able to get across the finish line, because people thought, okay, you know, if it's gonna reduce um same-day registration, that actually sounds like a good thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Uh well, we've looked at the data. And uh according to data from Cyber's own office, it just cracks me up. Election day registration actually increased from 5.6% in the 2022 election to 9.1% in the 2024 election. That's a 40% increase in same-day voter registration on election day.
SPEAKER_039.1% of people are same-day registering? Like that in and of itself is nuts.
SPEAKER_04Automatic voter registration had no impact at all on election day registration over the last five statewide elections.
SPEAKER_03So who are they registering? Who are the same day registering people? If you don't go to the DMV for like, don't you have to go at some point or you move? I don't know. I just I have so many questions. And I really think when it comes to the issue of um voting in election security, that people have a lot of questions that have answers and could be answered with more transparency from our state government. But the way that they refuse to do things like answer questions, Steve Simon has not gone in front of the fraud committee and said, you know, okay, let me answer some of these questions. Also giving the voter rolls to the federal government to look at. Why not? I mean, really. What are you hiding? I mean what are you hiding? Because that would give me so much peace about that if we had other um, you know, the federal government looking at these voter roles. Now we have a Republican administration, a Democratic administration both taking a look, seeing what they think. Let's get those results. And then so many of my questions, I think, would be answered or my fears would be calmed. But instead, he allows these kind of like fears and conspiracy theories to to fester because he won't answer questions.
SPEAKER_04And the data that we do manage to get out of him is concerning. So in September 2024, Simon reported that 65,000 Minnesotans had been successfully registered to vote through the state's new automatic system. Just a few months later, 327,000 voters still needed to register on election day. And the big question is why? And it's worth noting also that, you know, college students only make up 5% of that 327,000 number. Because that's kind of the big idea is oh, you know, college students are always moving around. They have to register the same day. Okay, whatever. But they only make up 5% of that number. Anyway. So as we're digging into the numbers.
SPEAKER_03Also, that is wild. Like when I I was in college not that long ago. It's surprising to some, maybe. No, but I was in college not that long ago. You just show up with your school ID. Like you don't need to that like does that even prove your residency? I don't know. Like that whole system as a side note.
SPEAKER_04Seems a little weird.
SPEAKER_03A little iffy. Again, I just I have some questions, maybe get some answers.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, uh, these numbers are not gonna, I think, uh help any of those questions or careers. Uh election day registration percentages in Minneapolis are significantly higher than in the rest of the state. And again, it's just it's worth asking why, right? That seems a little weird. It's worth asking why. There were also serious oddities in Minneapolis from the last 2025 election, for example. Uh Minneapolis Precinct 4.9 reported more election day registrations than voters. I'm gonna say that again. They reported more election day registrations than people who voted. W is probably a mistake. I'm hoping it's a mistake. I don't know what else that would mean. The data says that 225 people registered to vote, and only 83 actually voted.
SPEAKER_03Wait, same day registered to vote, and then didn't vote.
SPEAKER_04So they walked into the polling place. They registered to vote, and then they were like, nah.
unknownWhat?
SPEAKER_02That's all. I just wanted to register, I don't actually have anything to say. I just wanted to like make my registration and then leave.
SPEAKER_04It's not even like five people did that either. 225 registered to vote and only 83 voted. That is an insane number of people who all supposedly walked in, registered, and walked out. Again, it's probably a mistake. But this is why we want more data from the Secretary of State's office. Because if this is wrong and it hasn't been fixed, what else? Well, how can we trust any of the numbers you're giving us? It's so confusing. I can't. Another oddity, Minneapolis Precinct 24, which is a U of M precinct, uh reported that 318, 318 out of the 322 Election Day votes were the result of Election Day registration. That's that's that's like 95%. 95% of your voters were walk-ins. Four people were pre-registered? Literally only four. Yeah. They walked in, found their name on a voter roll, submitted their ballot, and voted for the voting.
SPEAKER_03Every single other person who walked in was either like they showed something, you know, you can be vouched for, or you can show like a letter that has your name on it and your address. That that is like all those people I'm serious, like that is so weird. I'm sorry, like we just need some answers.
SPEAKER_04That's exactly it. I mean, all this data doesn't say that there's necessarily voter fraud happening, but there's there's a lot of unexplained oddities, I would say, in these voter states. And we definitely need some answers from the Secretary of State's office instead of just telling us it's safe, it's safe, it's safe, it's safe, and refusing to give any more information.
SPEAKER_03Right, exactly. Wow, that did not make me feel better at all. Thanks, Bill. Good grief. All right, well, uh, let's move on to our third and final story, which um just came into my email box this morning from the Minnesota Private Business Council and Upper Midwest Law Center. So the Private Business Council, in partnership with UMLC, announced that it has filed a lawsuit challenging key provisions of Minnesota's 2024 omnibus bill. Specifically, the lawsuit targets provisions related to paid family and medical leave, earned sick and safe time requirements, and independent independent contract or classification rules, all of which impose significant new costs and compliance burdens on Minnesota job creators. This is interesting because in addition to being bad policy, this bill was unconstitutional. The over 1,400-page bill combined multiple unrelated policy areas into a single piece of legislation passed in the final minutes of session limiting meaningful review and debate, which is actually against Minnesota's constitution.
SPEAKER_04Right, wasn't this the bill that it was getting rushed through at the very last minute and none of the legislators you couldn't find a PDF of it anywhere, so they all had to vote on something that they didn't even know what it contained.
SPEAKER_03Yes. And in Minnesota's constitution, it says that you cannot have these kind of omnibus bills like they did in 2023. And what's interesting is one of these lawsuits has already won. The the the one that the gun lobby did. I mean, Minnesota Gun Owners Caucus with the, I think it was a trigger ban, I want to say. Um they found that it was unconstitutional the way that they did this omnibus, and therefore everything in that 2023 omnibus was. It's open to challenge, basically. Open to being challenged.
SPEAKER_04That doesn't mean that everything in the bill is automatically struck down, right? Um now each people, now people have to bring a challenge to each of the provisions that they would potentially want struck down like this. Right. So frustrating. But uh Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_03I don't really get it. But I mean it it's interesting because it seems like obviously they have a chance. And so um, if this impacted the paid family medical leave bill, I think that would be incredible. I mean, it'd be so interesting to see. I we've already seen so much backlash from this bill. Businesses leaving the state, people being really unhappy with it, and it being taken advantage of. Of course, more people are taking advantage of the program than they expected because that's what always happens. Um and so it's really interesting that maybe a challenge could actually be successful here.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. I mean, we you're even seeing school districts who are speaking out and complaining that you have this unfunded mandate with paid family medical leave. Uh you have the Anoka Hennepin School District that just this week announced that they're cutting like 75 uh positions, jobs. And one of the reasons, you know, that that that's being thrown around is well, you have these unfunded mandates, you know, we don't have enough funding, which I mean that's a whole other can of words, the whole circle of education funding issue. Um but yeah, if if there was a way to get the struck down, I'd be pretty psyched about that. So best of luck to them.
SPEAKER_03Me too. We'll see. I think it would be much better for um both employees and employers in um the state of Minnesota.
SPEAKER_04So we are now gonna switch things over to the back half of this episode and sit down with our own education policy fellow, Catherine Wigfall, who is gonna walk us through all of the education-related initiatives that are moving through the legislature right now that you need to know about. Stay tuned. American Experiment is supported by thousands of individuals like you. To join the movement, go to www.americanexperiment.org and click the yellow donate button. From all of us here, thank you. We are so happy to be joined in studio now by our own Katrin Wigfall, one of our two education policy fellows here at American Experiment, who is gonna give us kind of an all-in-in-encompassing update on what's happening on education in Minnesota. Uh, Catherine, welcome to the show. Happy to have you here. Yeah, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_03So where should we start? Yeah. I know there's a lot going on. But I think one of the most recent things that um I've seen is this opt-in campaign. Um, it's something that we're doing. Uh, Operation Opt-in is what we're calling it. But there was recently a hearing, uh I believe it was in the house, right? Which I'd like to hear you talk about a little bit because the DFL put out this video that I'm sure a lot of our listeners saw. Um, because Bill Walsh did kind of a step-by-step fact-checking um the DFL's talking points, because of course they were mostly wrong. So I just want to get into that. Um, first, will you describe what the tax credit is, what this opt-in program that we're talking about is, and what it would mean for students in Minnesota?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, definitely. So I had the privilege, I guess, of attending this hearing and testifying in person. It was a very lively discussion, and it was over the federal tax credit scholarship that was passed last summer under the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. And it allows taxpayers to get a dollar-for-dollar federal tax credit up to$1,700 if they donate to scholarship granting organizations that then provide scholarships to eligible students. So it benefits taxpayers because it's a dollar-for-dollar credit, not a deduction. So a credit is better. Uh, and then it also benefits students because students in public schools, non-public schools, homeschools can use these scholarships toward tuition, special education therapies, tutoring. And uh there's one caveat though, and I think this is probably how it got passed at the federal level, is states have to opt in. So we've heard from governors across the st across the country, more than half of states have said, yes, we think this is a great idea. It's gonna benefit students. We intend to opt our state in when the program starts, January 1, 2027. Governor Walls has been silent on whether Minnesota should opt in, and so the legislature said we need to have this conversation, and a bill was put forth to say we're gonna opt Minnesota in. And that prompted the hearing and the discussion and so forth. So it's not likely that he'll sign the bill. Uh he has now said in his supplemental budget proposals that if Minnesota wants to opt in, okay, we can. But then he's going to strip all of nonpublic pupil aid. So it's a really cynical education trade-off. But that's that's where things stand right now.
SPEAKER_04Off the top of your head, what are some of the states that have opted in? Because there's a couple Minnesota neighbors who have, aren't they?
SPEAKER_05Oh, definitely, yes. So North Dakota, South Dakota, and Iowa, all those Minnesota neighbors have opted in. Your typical red states that you would consider. So Texas, Mississippi, all a lot of mostly all the southern states, Florida. There have been two Democratic governors, Colorado and North Carolina, that realize the benefits of this. And Colorado's governor in particular has said, I don't care what administration this came from, this is a great thing for students. And so because it will benefit public school students, and Minnesota's student body is primarily made up of students who attend public schools. It's really, it really should be a no-brainer for someone like Governor Tim Walls, who says that he supports our public schools.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So why, okay, so why are Democrats so opposed to this? Because it seems to me, I mean, what is there? Our students are getting more money. The money comes from the federal government, right? So it doesn't even impact our budget on a state level, right? So why are Democrats so opposed?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you make a good point. It's as a federal tax credit, it would not cost the state anything to participate. So it's no new state taxes. It wouldn't take any money away from our public schools or anything that's already built into our education budget or public schools' current budgets. And, you know, there is the Democrats argue, well, this is taking away federal revenue because you're instead saying, okay, I don't want my$1,700 to go to the IRS. I'm going to instead send it to help students. Right. And I have to give a shout out to Representative Reimer during the hearing. He was amazing. He's basically looked at Democrats and said, this is a chance for you to like take money away from the man you hate the most. This would prevent the federal government from getting these dollars and Donald Trump from spending this money. So it was that was an interesting moment. And then all of a sudden, Democrats who were opposed to this brought up a, you know, the growing deficit as a potential problem. And I just sat there and I thought, now you care about becoming federal fish uh fiscally conservative. It was just very ironic. But the, you know, the opposition really stems from the teachers' unions. Teacher unions have been opposed to any form of school choice that will benefit private school students and private schools, whether or not the majority of students are public school students, like is the case with this federal tax credit scholarship program. I mean, Education Minnesota could even set up a nonprofit scholarship granting organization to distribute scholarships to public school students if they wanted to under this program. And yet, you know, teachers unions have been very vocal against this program. They've mischaracterized it as a voucher because that is a politically charged word and will get people to be opposed to it. And I just think that they can't let a school choice program take root in Minnesota that benefits private school students as well. Because I think there's fear involved over the competition. Yet if they believed in their product as well as they claim to be believing in it, if they if they thought the public school system operated as it should, then they shouldn't be afraid of losing students to other alternatives.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's so interesting too, because I can think of a lot of good uses for that um money in the public schools. Like you talked about, like tutoring. Um, one of the things that I have always thought was really actually a good point by some people on the left is that things like ACT tutoring are extremely useful. And that is something that there is a barrier to entry for people who are lower income. So okay, this seems like a great opportunity. You could give kids ACT tutoring, SAT tutoring, whatever they needed to get ready for college. And I feel like that would be a great use. But because it has this kind of like school choice, to them, they put it in the same category as school choice. And so they're just like ideologically opposed.
SPEAKER_04And that's such an important distinction to be made that just because something is open and available to private school students, that does not mean that it's just a handout to kids who are already attending private school, as as the union and people on the left are framing it. This is I I can't think of a more um, you know, equal, equal entry-to-all policy than this. It's it's quite literally open to any student in Minnesota if Minnesota can opt in.
SPEAKER_05Right. Yeah, there's there is an eligibility threshold, but it's very generous and it's by county. So 300% of your county area median income. And so because of that threshold, because it's not based on a state average, a majority of families and students will be eligible. And like I mentioned, because 90% of Minnesota public school students are educated through the public school system, a majority, you know, this is it should be a no-brainer because you're helping out students in all learning environments, and a majority of them are in the public schools that teachers' unions claim that they care about and and obviously do care about. They fight tooth and nail for more funding to support them. And this is just additional funding to support those students in specific ways.
SPEAKER_04Can you clarify something? I've heard concerns from uh Minnesotans that, you know, given our state's history with fraud, they are they are very fearful of any program that brings additional funding into our state. Oh, can you speak to that a little bit?
SPEAKER_05No, yeah, uh understandably so, right? We've been in the news for a lot of wrong reasons uh and fraud. Obviously, you have to be careful uh for fraud in any sort of program. This is a little bit different because it involves these scholarship granting organizations that have to go through a pretty rigorous approval process to be recognized at the federal level uh as a nonprofit that can distribute these scholarship dollars. And, you know, we're the U.S. Department of Treasury is still writing rules on what the specific application process will look like. There's going to be auditing involved and reporting requirements. The SGOs have to verify that 90% of the dollars that they receive go toward these scholarships to be used for eligible expenses. So there's, you know, there's different metrics like that in place, and we hope that the Treasury Department will add more into the final rules. And so, you know, obviously you have to be vigilant against that, but um a dollar spent too through something like a scholarship granting organization is different than a dollar that would be spent through a new federal program because the scholarship granting organizations they don't have all the different levels of bureaucracy and the all the the money doesn't exchange all these different hands and that sort of thing, like you would see with a new federal, uh a federal program. So there's things like that in place, and we'll obviously be watching what the final rules say so that we can make sure that they're in their best possible form. Because yeah, we want the money to actually get to the students and and not to be uh and not we don't want taxpayers to be taken advantage of.
SPEAKER_03You brought up the teachers' unions. And I would love to divert for a second to talk about Minnesota's teachers' union a little bit because I don't know if we've done it a lot on this podcast, but the truth is that the the teachers union in Minnesota has opposed any and all education reforms for decades. I mean, they've just been against absolutely everything that, from my perspective, could make our schools, especially our public schools, really be better and work better for students. Why is this? Because shouldn't our teachers' unions be the people who are advocating for the best possible public schools? And in reality, it seems to be that they're just against everything.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, no, and and we've tracked this over the years. I mean, like you said, it has been decades of opposing education reform that would promote student success. And it does beg the question why. And a lot of it can be traced back to I I think it's a control issue. And I think it's also, you know, they they want, they have a monopoly currently over our public education system, and they can't let anything get in the way of that. And so allowing alternatives or allowing programs that would encourage alternatives, I think really threatens that that control and that monolithic monopolistic power that they have. And so, you know, you look back at kind of when unions took hold in in Minnesota, and I think it you trace it back to the merge of the Democratic Party with the Farmer Labor Party back in 1944, because you know, at the time the Farmer Labor Party had already had close ties with organized labor and union activism and min in Minnesota politics. And so, you know, I would argue that the DFL at that time it wasn't just friendly to unions, it was really institutionally built out of the labor movement coalition. And so unions have really been foundational stakeholders uh for the DFL from day one. And then fast forward to the 20th century, and you had the growth of public sector unions, so teachers' unions, and they really became the teachers' unions, uh especially became a central pillar of this organized labor coalition tied to the DFL. And then they funnel donations to the DFL. So the DFL is incentivized to pass policies that uh are favorable to the unions, and then the unions can mobilize with that mug. They can mobilize money and they can mobilize voters to uh support DFL candidates. And then the DFL maintains that political dominance and the cycle just starts all over again. And so it's really been hard, uh especially in Minnesota, to break through that cycle because of the stronghold they have on our education system, which is why it's so important to look at other states and that have, you know, become right-to-work states and that have systems in place that prevent these union monopolies and that actually give teachers and other public uh employees a true uh workplace democracy, true workplace democracy and a true voice on whether or not they want union representation.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it was it was shocking to me when I learned how much political sway and influence our teachers union does have here in Minnesota. And they're they're by no means a neutral organization. And smok so much of their union dues is spent on, you know, far left advocating uh for policies every single year. Where can teachers go if they do want to opt out? Because you're not required to be a member of you know Education Minnesota if you're a teacher in Minnesota.
SPEAKER_05They're not they're not required to be a member, they're not required, you know, to financially support the union thanks to a 2018 U.S. Supreme Court case. So before 2018, Minnesota teachers didn't really have a choice. It was either be a full dues-paying member, or if you don't want to be a member, uh, you still have to pay us 85% of what dues would cost. Uh but just so crazy, by the way. Like that is insane. And the union would just come with the job, by the way. So if you wanted to be a teacher, you had this forced union representation. And so unions have to, in good faith, represent both members and non-members because they fought for that. They fought for that right in the 1970s, which is why I can't stand when unions and union members say, oh, people who don't pay dues, they're just freeloaders, they're free riders. It is so disparaging because you, as a union, fought to represent those non-members. If you don't want to represent people who don't pay, you could lobby like you do for many other things at the Capitol to only represent members. But they don't want to give up that control. They want to give up that exclusive representation. Uh, but teachers don't have to pay for it anymore. And there's an annual opt-out window, and it comes uh every year from September 1st to September 30th. Teachers can submit an opt-out letter to Education Minnesota, and they won't have to pay dues, and they will still be represented by Education Minnesota, whatever contract Education Minnesota negotiates with the district because they don't have a choice. So they they can't negotiate for themselves even if they want to. And teachers can go to educated teachersmn.com to learn more. And we inform teachers of their rights, of their options outside of union membership, because we want teachers to know what is available. You know, you can still get professional liability insurance and that sort of thing. Um, and and you don't have to play the union's political games. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right, exactly. That's the thing, is it's not your your money shouldn't automatically as a teacher just be going to causes you don't necessarily support. Your money just gets funneled to the DFL in huge numbers. It's crazy. Um, well, school choice proposals, of course, are one of the things that Education Minnesota is also against. Um, here at American Experiment, we are currently running a campaign called 7K for Kids, which is our preferred um school choice legislation. I think I'd say that that's accurate, right? So will you tell us a little bit about what bill what the bill we're supporting looks like?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, definitely. So 7K for kids is an education savings account proposal, and it would establish an education savings account program in Minnesota, and that allows a portion of the state aid that a district receives to educate a child, so that we call it the basic formula allowance, would follow a child, so it's about$7,000, would follow a child to a non-public learning environment, and the family would be able to use those funds toward a variety of educational expenses. So tuition, uh, special education therapy, tutoring, transportation. And the reason that we've really seen ESAs kind of explode, and even states that have had choice policies in place really have turned ESAs or have built ESAs on top of what they currently have in place is because it's the most customizable choice policy option we currently have. It's really like uh, you know, it gives parents an opportunity to mix and match services. So, say, you know, Jimmy is attending uh a public school and it's not meeting his needs, he's falling behind, his family could use that ESA to move him to a non-public learning environment. And because he fell so far behind, he also needs math tutoring. So that ESA could also be used for math tutoring. Uh, the neat part is because you can mix and match services, it's an opportunity to also partner with the local school districts. So, say Susie is at a non-public school and you know, she really likes the Spanish teacher, Mrs. Johnson, at the local public high school. Great name. She could purchase that Spanish class from the public high school while attending her current non-public school because maybe her non-public school doesn't offer the language course, or you know, Mrs. Johnson is just fantastic. So it's it's a real opportunity for parents to be the primary decision makers in their child's education in a way that not all parents are able to be right now.
SPEAKER_04And it gives some of the freedom of choice and control back to the taxpayers. It lets parents who have been paying into the public school system with their property taxes for years who might not want to put their kids in a public school for a multitude of reasons, which we've covered again and again and again on this show, from you know, low test scores to the political indoctrination that's happening there, but it lets them get back some of the tax dollars that they've been putting into the system uh for the education of their own child.
SPEAKER_05Right, because it's just that basic formula allowance of the state aid that follows the child. You have still uh a good portion of property dollars and most federal funding that stays behind at the school district. And so, yeah, you know, parents are essentially paying twice for their child's education if they are choosing an alternative, but it should come down to what is best for this kid for him or her to succeed. So it's it's a really neat opportunity for Minnesotans to do more for students and and help them just be ready for what's next.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, school choice comes in many forms. People talk about like vouchers and things like that too. Why is it that you think, Catherine, we decided at American Experiment that education savings accounts are the best kind of program to pursue school choice?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I I think it just stems back to parents' ability to kind of mix and match those services and fully customize what they're accessing. You mentioned vouchers and how this federal tax credit scholarship is being mislabeled as a voucher. Well, policy distinction, vouchers can only be used toward private school tuition by private school students. And so something like this federal tax credit scholarship that is available to public school students and homeschool students allows more students' needs to be served. Uh, an ESA is more expansive than a voucher because it it's not just for tuition, it's for transportation, special education therapies, that sort of thing. And so you're seeing states that maybe started with a voucher program decades ago add on an ESA program now. Or, you know, ESAs were actually originally for special education students. And so a lot of the first ESA programs focus specifically on that student population. And over years, they've expanded those programs. Uh many are now universal, so all to apply to all students. And so it's really a way to make sure this particular policy is a way to make sure that the the most students can benefit in a state. Because you know, there are future teachers, firefighters, doctors, wherever they're educated, whatever learning environment, their education matters, and we should want them to be successful.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. One of the things you hear so often from people on the left when school choice comes up is that it's going to ruin the public school system. You're going to pull funding away from the public schools, you know, the kids will have to cut art class or whatever it is they want to say that day. Is there any truth to that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we have to know by now, right? Because they've been saying this for so long. And now I feel like we've finally had school choice somewhere like Arizona or these other states. Like what has it actually looked like? Have the public schools been ruined in other states where they've done this?
SPEAKER_05You know, that is just an easy argument for critics to make. And we have decades of research on choice policies that have existed in states that show positive fiscal effects on school districts and taxpayers, especially in the long term, because if you think about our 7K for kids initiative, only$7,000 of what a school district spends is following that child out of the school. And Minnesota on average spends over, you know, nearly$17,000 per student. So when you factor in those differences, yes, you have to account for fixed costs, but in the long term, you know, districts have to adjust to enrollment shifts for a variety of reasons, not just because a student leaves for a choice policy. But when you adjust for those shifts, there are real long-term savings involved. And so you see these positive fiscal effects, you see uh positive achievement effects, um, you see positive effects on graduation, attainment, school safety, uh, racial integration. I mean, parent satisfaction. And so you really, you know, the this whole the sky is falling type approach to opposing choice policy just hasn't played out. There's just so much fear that has been instilled over opening up options for families. And, you know, the research says otherwise.
SPEAKER_04Another concern I've heard over proposals like this, this time from uh mostly people on the right, uh, is pushback on any proposal or any program that even mentions giving more funding to schools or to students. Because I think that there's um we've seen such a tendency in Minnesota to just throw money at schools if we're having education problems, just throw money at it and then you know call it a day. Um and so I think conservatives have developed a rear, a real uh fear and resistance of any program involving uh pro uh funding for schools. Uh can you push back on that on those fears a little bit? Because I feel like this program at face value, you know, we're saying 7K for kids, it might sound like we're just gonna take another an extra$7,000 from the legislature and give it to every kid in Minnesota. And that's not what's happening.
SPEAKER_05Right. Yeah, well, and the name itself, too, you know, education savings account. So it's not a parent having to save that$7,000. I know there's some confusion around that. Um, but it really is saying, all right, the dollars that a public school would get for this child should go to the learning environment that is responsible for educating that child. So public schools are not entitled to taxpayer money for a child that they no longer have to educate. And yes,$7,000 is walking out the door with that child, but double of that in cost to educate that child is also walking out the door. So you have to keep that in mind too. And, you know, we talk a lot in Minnesota about we meaning just state leaders, about how our poorer education performance is because of a lack of funding. And, you know, we funnel more and more money into the education system. And here is a program that is saying, you know, let's try something different than just putting more money into a system. Let's see if we move that money around and we open up an education marketplace, just like we see, you know, marketplaces in other areas work efficiently and you bring in competition, maybe we'll get more, you know, ROI and more bang for our buck because you really see poor performance stemming from mismatched educational settings, not from a lack of funding. So let's get the child in the education setting that will meet his or her needs, and you know, the dollars will be there to support that child, but then what's saved will come back around and go back into the state's education budget and ultimately probably find their way back into the public schools.
SPEAKER_03Taxpayer ROI. That should be a thing. Like no one's talking about that. What's my ROI? Like in every other situation, you know, if you invest your money in something, you want to know what's the return on my investment. No one is ever telling me that as a taxpayer.
SPEAKER_05And short-term and long-term, right? I mean, if we are preparing these students uh academically so that they are successful, not just K-12, but in college, you know, there's also long-term fiscal effects involved, higher lifetime earnings, uh, lower social service costs, you know, welfare, incarceration, that sort of thing. And so, you know, and and we can apply that to this federal tax credit scholarship as well, where there's you know, pushback because, oh, this is lost federal revenue. I think that's so short-sighted, and we we miss out on the long-term impact if we just sit consider what this will mean for students' educational journeys. And, you know, in the future, if they earn more, they're gonna be, you know, they're gonna pay more taxes and that sort of thing. And and then we'll have a more productive workforce. And so there's all of these positive effects that I think are getting lost in the conversation because we're We're so focused on mischaracterizing it as a voucher and that, oh, this money is only going to help students in private schools.
SPEAKER_04Now, if our listeners want to see our 7K for kids proposal make it across the finish line, what can they do to get involved?
SPEAKER_05Yes, we have a really exciting opportunity coming up on April 14th. There will actually be a hearing for the ESA bill, and there will be a rally around that bill. So join us April 14th for a rally just down the road from the Capitol. And, you know, we just want legislators to know the Minnesotaans want this. Our Thinking Minnesota polling has shown this over and over again. The Minnesotans support school choice in general. And then they also support the idea of taxpayer dollars following the child to the public or private school of choice. And that's a really important distinction because oftentimes school choice will get brought up in in general, and it applies to, you know, choosing your public school, choosing a charter school, choosing a private school. But when you poll and ask someone, should those dollars follow the child, and you still get Democrat support too. I think we had a majority or plurality of Democrats supporting the measure, you know, that that says something, and that's that's an important distinction. So yes, join us April 14th for a rally. Uh it's gonna be a lot of fun. We'll have t-shirts.
SPEAKER_04Uh there are more details on the rally at american experiment.org/slash events. And if you want to take action ahead of that date, that's April 14th, you can go to 7kforkids.com to fill out our form. It takes like 15 seconds, and you can contact your legislators and Governor Walls and ask them to get this proposal past the finish line. And also, if you are interested in getting the Federal Tax Credit Scholarship, uh, if you want Minnesota opted in into that program, uh you can go to operationopt-in.com to do the same take action uh form. Catherine, thank you so much for joining us and walking us through these issues today. So glad to have you on. Thanks for having me. Thanks to everyone who made it all the way to the end of this week's episode of the American Experiment Podcast.
SPEAKER_03We have a question of the day today, which is based off a story we didn't touch on, but I'm sure a lot of you saw in the news, which is that the University of Minnesota is changing its motto. It used to be driven to discover, and now it is leave a future.
SPEAKER_04That's part of a$15 million rebranding campaign, by the way. So I don't know how much they were charged for that motto specifically, but I think that they were overbilled.
SPEAKER_03I should go into the PR business, clearly. I mean, I could have come up with something better because what does that mean?
unknownI don't know.
SPEAKER_03I have no idea. If if you know, tell us, okay? Question of the week, tell us in the comments what does leave a future mean?
SPEAKER_04And why? Why? Driven to discover was fine. Oh, it's fine.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I thought it was I liked it. Whatever.
SPEAKER_04Leave a future. Leave a f leave the f I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I don't like it at all. Let us know what you think in the comments because we're not loving it.
SPEAKER_04And as always, help us reach more people by liking, subscribing, turning on notifications, sharing this episode with a friend, and we will see you guys next week.
