American Experiment Podcast
Why are so many Minnesota high school graduates unable to read or do math at grade level? Does Tim Walz actually think he's going to be the next president of the United States? And why does he keep swearing so much?
These are the kinds of hard-hitting questions we get into every week on the American Experiment Podcast, where we unpack the week's biggest stories, interview Minnesota's movers and shakers, and "stop the tape" on clips of our state's most ridiculous elected officials.
New episodes drop every Tuesday afternoon and are available on every major podcasting platform.
American Experiment Podcast
Episode 125 - Kimmel CRINGE: Walz's late night LIES
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Is Walz more focused on Minnesota or his national brand?
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Fresh off a book deal and PAC launch, Governor Walz joined Jimmy Kimmel to downplay the fraud scandal and rip President Trump (what else is new?), which warrants an edition of STOP THE TAPE. The Minneapolis Public School district is facing a self-inflicted $75 million budget deficit and somehow, the story keeps getting more absurd. Finally, House DFLers are trying to stop cities from flying the old Minnesota flag. Will they succeed? On the back half, Matt Dean breaks down the Hennepin County Medical Center’s budget crisis and what should be done.
QOTD: What should the state flag be? Old, new, or something else?
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00:00 - Welcome back!
00:44 - Question of the Week: what should we do with the MN state flag??
01:24 - Walz makes an appearance on the Jimmy Kimmel Show
02:56 - STOP THE TAPE: Walz's Late Night Lies
12:11 - Jimmy Kimmel's latest disgusting comments...
16:17 - Minneapolis Public School's budget DISASTER gets even worse
24:23 - House DFLers want to punish cities flying the old state flag
29:41 - Healthcare policy fellow Matt Dean joins the show!
57:26 - Hearing from you!
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#minneapolis #governorwalz #walz #minnesota #legislature #capitol #mn #republicans #democrats #politics #gop #dfl #stpaul #culture #politics #fraud #corruption #hearing #taxes #schools #education #jimmykimmel #kimmel #latenight #comedian
Welcome back to the American Experiment Podcast. Catherine, what do we have on the docket today? This week, Governor Walls was on Jimmy Kimmel. We'll stop the tape on some of his bizarre claims. Then the Minneapolis Public Schools budget disaster worsens, and finally, House DFLers introduce a bill to punish cities and counties which fly the old state flag. On the back half, we interviewed Matt Dean on HCMC's budget woes. Let's dive in.
SPEAKER_03I am Grace Keating, as always here with Catherine Johnson.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and we like to get your feedback too on what's going on. Today we're gonna talk a little bit about the Minnesota State flag. You all, of course, know the story, but the question we have for you all today, and you can drop your answer in the YouTube comments, preferably. If you're listening, head on over and drop your answer. We'll make sure to look there. Um, should we keep the old flag or should we keep the new flag or should we create a a totally new flag altogether? What's your opinion? If you want to get creative in the comments, you're welcome to, or just let us know which flag do you think was best?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we love reading your guys' responses. Some of you had the funniest answers ever to last week's question. So I'm really looking forward to hear what you come up with this week.
SPEAKER_02Uh, our first story is about Governor Tim Walls going on Jimmy Kimmel, which apparently he has like a nighttime show. This is so not my demographic of like content. I have no idea how people even watch like Jimmy Kimmel, but whatever, I found it on YouTube. Um and he is fresh off, Governor Walls is fresh off an announcement of a book deal, which he is calling good neighbors, of course. Obviously. And the announcement of his new uh pack, which is supposed to target rural areas. Um, and he's looking to get more progressive leaders in rural areas around the country. So he went on Jimmy Kimmel's talk show to talk about that, I guess.
SPEAKER_03The man is busy. The man might not be governor next year, but he is making it very clear we are gonna have no shortage of Tim Wall's content, uh, even after he's out of office.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, think of the book tour. I mean, oh my gosh. So excited. So I will also add that I hadn't seen the jazz hands in a while. I didn't feel like they had been out and about like they were on the campaign trail. And oh my gosh, they came back. I didn't clip it for this dot the tape, but they did come back. He walked on the stage in immediate jazz hands. It's like, why does he turn into a different person when he's on the national stage? I really I don't get it.
SPEAKER_03He is like a deer in the headlights.
SPEAKER_02It's like, yeah, right. Scared exactly. It's very strange. So uh okay, I think that's all the preface we need. Let's get into it. Uh Jimmy Kimmel actually asked some like decent questions, and Walls' responses are predictably uh a little absurd. Go ahead, Isaac.
SPEAKER_01Um mixed into all of this is this um this uh these multiple cases of benefits fraud that were happening. Now I want to ask you, why did it take did it take an extraordinarily long time for you to know that that was happening? No. Is that just something that that has been spread? It happens in other states.
SPEAKER_03We cannot get too far past this because he you're gonna see he's gonna just bip, bip, bip to these different topics. And so we have to stop the tape immediately. Walls, it did it take you a long time to know the fraud was happening? If that's the case, then why did it take the feds coming in and raiding these fraudulent nonprofits for it to get shut down? If you knew, as you're claiming here, why didn't you do anything?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it obviously did take him a very long time to act on the fraud. There were whistleblowers that were shut down. There were all kinds of signs that there was horrible fraud going on in Minnesota. And either Governor Walls uh somehow didn't understand what was going on in his own agencies, or he willfully ignored um what was happening. So that's just obviously untrue. It took him a very long time. This other claim that it's happening in other states, well, sure, there is fraud in other states. No one's found fraud on the level that there is in Minnesota and other states. And just because it's also happening in California doesn't make it better, Governor Walls. Okay, still horrible.
SPEAKER_03And your handling of the fraud was still horrible. Yeah, this is such a childish response. It's like a kid who gets told no by his parents, and he's like, but my friend Timmy gets to do it. Like, exactly. If the fact that it's happening in other states does not mean it's okay that it happened here or that your administration did basically nothing to stop it. Let's keep it rolling.
SPEAKER_00Many of these people were prosecuted in 2021. He used it as an excuse because it was a perfect thing to do to say there was fraud. Imagine that. You know, coming from this guy, he would know fraud where it was at.
SPEAKER_03Okay, stop the tape, stop the tape. So if you didn't catch that, now he's saying that Trump the Trump administration made kind of made up the fraud in Minnesota to use it as an excuse to come in and and assert, I guess, their authoritarian presence, as he would say. So, okay, so the fraud is real. But then also the Trump administration kind of made it up so that they could justify use of force. That's the scenario that he's laying out here?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they're using it for a political purpose. Look, we talk about this a lot. I've gone all over the state, just like uh many of you, you live in all parts of the state, and we've heard from you, everyone's talking about the fraud issue, okay? President Trump didn't make up the fraud issue and try and use it as a political weapon. This is the number one issue Minnesotans care about. So for him to be so flippant and say, oh, this is just a Republican talking point, absolutely not. Of course not. He knows that, but he doesn't have any excuse for his handling of it because it was so atrocious.
SPEAKER_03We're gonna get 30 seconds in. It is actually like if we continue with this rate, we're gonna be here for about three hours. Let's keep going.
SPEAKER_01Used it to uh he's like Sigmund fraud. Yeah, demonize.
SPEAKER_00Okay, stop the tape.
SPEAKER_02Let's just address that. That we are a payer state. That is true, like California, but there are so many reasons for that, that we pay more um in federal m tax money than we get back. I mean, there are that's an extremely complicated equation of things that are going on there. That's not any kind of excuse. I mean, we are not footing the bill for other Medicaid programs. And he once again throws out this thing like, we we take care of our people.
SPEAKER_03We're generous. We're a generous state because we allowed our tax dollars to go to fraud. Why?
SPEAKER_02It's not exactly, it's not generous to fill the pockets of people committing fraud in our state that doesn't make us generous whatsoever. Also, it doesn't make us generous that our government is just like stealing tons of money for us. Something that does make us generous is Minnesotans are known to give a lot of money in philanthropy, are very giving with uh helping with people in need. Those things are true. You, Governor Walls, are not the one by stealing money from Minnesotans, you are not the one making Minnesotans generous.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, how can it be generosity if like all of us are poor forced to pay taxes? That I I don't it's not a gift freely given. That's not what generosity is. And then on top of that, it's going to fraud. No, okay. Let's go on.
SPEAKER_00It came in to try and destroy those programs, and uh you know that's that's again rich. Destroy programs that don't help them by billionaires who who commit this fraud. But no, it was an excuse for them to do it. Um thank goodness the people of Minnesota showed the courage, stood up, and pushed back.
SPEAKER_01Is the fallout from that situation though why you decided that you would not run for re-election?
SPEAKER_00No, and I think uh for me, look, two terms is probably enough. I think we get enough of people making careers out of this.
SPEAKER_02Oh, let's just candidly did run for a third term, but his campaign failed so hugely because of the fraud that he decided to quit. So, yeah, nice rewriting of history.
SPEAKER_03That is such a BS. The stated reason he gave when he dropped out of the race was that he was gonna let other people do the campaigning and he was gonna direct all of his attention to stopping the fraud that was happening in Minnesota. So now you're saying that's a lie. And you're exactly right. He dropped out because he was crashing and burning because of the fraud issue. This is insanity. And oh my gosh, for him to try to take like the high road, the high road, and say, you know, oh, I think we have enough people that are career politicians. Like, yeah, that's what you wanted. What are you talking about?
SPEAKER_02That was his dream. He even tried to be vice president, like fail after fail after fail, and now he's like, Well, you know, I just figured my time was over. Oh, complete nonsense.
SPEAKER_03You realize you could go on book tours and go on shows like Jimmy Kimmel's. Like that that was a more attractive life for you. Let's go on.
SPEAKER_00Minnesota had a pretty tough year. It uh in June of last year we finished a legislative session. We're evenly divided 67, 67 in the House, 35, 34 in the Senate. But the most extraordinary politician and person I ever worked with was Melissa Hortman, who was gunned down in June of last year. And she and I were we were partners in doing this work or whatever, and then the annunciation shooting, and I think it just kind of got to the point. The fraud stuff on that. Republicans run it up, they put money in it. I I just it was most important for me that we hold the seat with a progressive Democrat, and uh which we will do now. And so a lot of things went into it. Start the tape.
SPEAKER_02Okay, love the admission that he was like, I I I couldn't win, you know. He really makes that admission. I wanted a progressive to hold the seat, and it wasn't going to be me because of the fraud. Again, to be so flippant about the fraud, he's certainly right. We've had some major tragedies in Minnesota that have nothing to do with Governor Walls, so I'm not sure how that really plays into his decision to run again. When right, he has previously said it was the fraud. He wanted to stop campaigning so he could focus on taking care of the fraud. So I'm not sure how bringing up those tragedies really works into that equation.
SPEAKER_03I have nothing. I don't know how we got to this point. I'm I'm sitting here watching his speech with you guys, and I have no idea the way he bounces around to different topics and tries to hit like as many talking points as he possibly can in the shortest time frame possible. I have no idea how we got here. Where are we gonna go from here? Let's see.
SPEAKER_00What will you do now? What is your plan? Well, I want to help elect people who are out there, good people. I was forty and never went to a political. You gotta drop well candidates how to get into this. And so on Monday I I launched a pack, and I want to go out and find teachers, nurses, small business owners. Because look, uh I know I can go find people who are better than the clowns and fools we have doing this right now and helping. Somebody um teach school? You will teach again? I'm gonna go teach again. Really? I'm I think that's that's my grade are you thinking about teaching? I'm almost a sixth grade teacher for a while. I've been I've been dealing with the Trump administration, so it's a flat hanging here.
SPEAKER_03Stop the tape. That is really rare. Stop the tape. If this man becomes a teacher in the state of Minnesota, I am leaving. I'm not letting this man anywhere near the education of my future kids.
SPEAKER_02Imagine walking into like your kids' first day of class and it's Tim Walls is their teacher? That's so wild. I mean, just from a like practical standpoint, is does that make any sense? Would any school hire him? I find that so amusing. I mean, I and it's more so not even just who he is, but like a former governor?
SPEAKER_03Would that does that happen? It is such a funny thought for him to actually transition back to a classroom space from this life that he's leading now of like campaigning and after the VP campaign and he's on Jimmy Kimmel and he's gonna do the book tour. To then see picture him going back into like a little sixth-grade classroom and accepting that like deflation because it's post it's post-power, it's post-prestige that he's been used to, out of the governor's mansion. I would be shocked if he actually takes this back.
SPEAKER_02So I hope he does. I mean, that would be really fascinating. Um we could get some stories from um from the kids, or or maybe he'll take on another football team as a like assistant coach. Um I can't wait to see. But this was uh not the only reason Jimmy Kimmel made news, of course, because later that week, Jimmy Kimmel did a sketch where he did a mock White House correspondence dinner. This was on his Thursday night show. He made a joke where he was the speaker hosting this White House correspondence dinner. He made a joke uh about Trump's wife saying, Melania, you have a glow like an expectant widow. Worth noting too that the camera cut to a video of her like sitting in an audience in a different event. She, of course, wasn't in the Jimmy Kimmel audience, um, but they cut to an image of her like she was sitting right there um listening to him. So uh that was all one day before a gunman entered, entered the White House correspondence dinner and um tried to use political violence to silence uh President Trump and other Republican leaders.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell Not a great week for the Jimmy Kimmel show.
SPEAKER_02Not a great week for the Jimmy Kimmel show. I saw Melania is, of course, calling on ABC to fire him.
SPEAKER_03Um didn't his show get canceled last fall?
SPEAKER_02Why is he back on the air? I don't know. He's um it did get canceled briefly, or at least I think not necessarily canceled, but um it wasn't aired by certain uh, you know, distributors networks. Um but ABC apparently is the one that hosts Jimmy Kimmel, and Megan Kelly made this point, and it's kind of part of like the lore of the show The Bachelor. Do you know about this?
SPEAKER_03Wild Wild Turn, okay.
SPEAKER_02Chris Harrison, because they also host ABC. Chris Harrison, he was the host of The Bachelor and The Bachelorette forever. He is great at it. He was beloved by the audience, okay? He hosted the show for what 20 some years.
SPEAKER_03I'm remembering this.
SPEAKER_02During the 2020 craziness, it came out that one of the contestants on The Bachelor was a girl who was in a sorority in the South years ago and attended a party, which apparently was common for these sororities called like an antebellum party, and they dress up in these big dresses and um you know, very gone with the wind aspect. Yeah, like it's like a southern dress-up kind of deal. And then people found these pictures and said, actually, that's racist. Um, and Chris Harrison basically said, I think we should give her a little bit of grace. We should judge her by the standards of the time when she did it and not the time now looking back. An obviously sensible comment. He got canned. Like, what? He was completely fired. They took him off there, the most beloved guy they had on that network, seriously. I mean, he never did a thing wrong. This guy is like a saint. And he was just like, maybe we shouldn't kick this girl off for a party she went to and a big thing. That was what he said. Oh my gosh, Jimmy Kimmel is literally calling for an assassin assassination of our president and is still on their network. So it's really absurd the way the standards um seem to work for some people.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's it's at what point are we gonna have enough attempts of political violence against our leaders in this country? When are when is it gonna reach a point where it's not funny to joke about anymore? Because even even here in Minnesota, with with the death of Melissa Hortman and the attack on John Hoffman, it's the these these political violence jokes, the the the air of levity of trying to make light of really serious things, it's not, it's just not funny anymore. If you're at all in the space of politics or policy in this state, it's not funny anymore. And I don't understand when the talk show hosts at the national level are gonna get that message either. Yeah, it's just not fun.
SPEAKER_02I have like a lot of, you know, I I think comedy is a thing that we should not be quick to cancel, you know. Like absolutely, I have a lot of leeway for comedians of making insane, absurd, you know, offensive jokes. But this wasn't at all funny. Yeah. And I think that that matters too. When his show has just turned into a political diatribe against the right, it's not funny. He's not making good jokes, he's not being clever, he's just calling for political violence, and that's obviously way too far for me.
SPEAKER_03That's a p that's a point worth making, too. Like, humor definitely does have a place in how we make sense of tragedies and understand the world around us. But when your joke is based on predicting or calling for the death of a sitting politician, a sitting globe, like world leader. And it's not funny. It's not funny or after past attempts have already been made, and you all at the same time you have this this culture among legenzi, you know, especially young men who are committing these acts of violence and then being celebrated, like look at Luigi Mangioni, like it it becomes irresponsible at a certain point. And I yeah, exactly. I don't know how long this can go off on for. Yeah. In other news, the budget disaster that is hitting Minneapolis Public Schools that has been unfolding over the last years and years and years and years is getting worse and worse in pretty hysterical ways. A recently released report showed that the school district incurred over five million dollars in IRS penalties since 2022. 2022. They're facing like tens of millions of dollars in a budget shortfall right now. There's tons of panic headlines about how they're gonna have to cancel the art class, you know. They got classic, that's always what they say. They're like, we will have well, you know, we messed up the budget, we're sorry, but your kids are not getting busted anymore. Like that sucks for them. And we'll get into why that's so insane. But on top of that, they're also getting just they're incurring millions and millions of dollars like it's nothing. And on top of that, the reasons are so funny. Like the penalties were assessed for a range of issues. This is Minnesota reformer reporting, including almost three million dollars for errors calculating and reporting employment taxes. Wait, and then another bad accountants? Bad accounts, and then another over two million for the late filing of Forms W 2 and Forms 1095C.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god, do they have the same accountants as Ilhan Omar?
SPEAKER_03Maybe that's their problem. They're all in Minneapolis. Oh my god. It's just they it shows such a flagrant lack of regard for the situation that they're in. They just payer dollars that they are given. They don't care about them. They think they're gonna get bailed out. They're facing a$75 million budget deficit.$75 million budget deficit for this school year. And they're at the same time incurring millions of dollars in penalties just for not getting their paperwork in on time. Does no one over there give a crap about what's going on?
SPEAKER_02I I guarantee to you, they have a whole infrastructure of like DEI hires and and positions that are just completely uh meaningless. I mean, you look at the admin growth that's taken place in our schools too. Catherine Wigwall talks about this all the time. It's insane. The bloat of the administrative and staff positions in the school system is huge, but no, they're never going to do what they need to do to meet their budget. They're only gonna beg for more and more taxpayer money, or at least that's what I predict.
SPEAKER_03And this is not even the only insane financial news that broke recently. The district apparently also withheld nearly$3 million that was supposed to go into an employee healthcare trust account. For 10 months in 2024, for 10 months in 2024, this$3 million that was supposed to be set aside for their health care was just floating around. And no one knows where it was or why it wasn't in the fund. They have hired a law firm and paid them$120,000 to investigate what happened here. The district has hired a law firm to investigate what happened, and no one present at the district was able to give an account, a cohesive account of where the money went and why it wasn't in the fund. And they're like, well, it's back now. You know, it it's there now, so no harm done. Oh, wait, they lost three million dollars and then they found us? And then they found us, and they're like, eh, that's probably fine. Supposedly the entire finance team is an absolute mess, by the way, in this district. They paid a different law firm,$30,000 last year. Different law firm to conduct a review of the finance department and you know, like the climate and culture, and maybe see what's going on here. They found systemic issues including dysfunction among employee employees and fear of retaliation, which boy, if that is not a theme among bureaucracy in Minnesota, is fear of retaliation from employees. No, no whistleblowers.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh, the culture in these like public um, you know, uh uh companies is just crazy. It's really sad. I mean, I can only imagine being in a situation where you felt like you couldn't even speak up. Maybe someone does know what happened to the three million dollars, and they just feel like I am not saying a thing, man.
SPEAKER_03They are on track. The district is on track to spend nearly$700,000 just on outside investigators and temporary consultants to address its troubled finance department.
SPEAKER_02I feel like you could like find a reasonable accountant for that much to just hire one guy and do it. I think you would. I I really do, for that much money.
SPEAKER_03There's just such a lack of care, a lack of of seriousness. I think it feels like none of the members of the district are taking seriously the financial hole that they're in.$75 million budget deficit projected for this year. It's another$50 million for next year. They are digging themselves deeper and deeper and deeper, and they've known that this was coming for years and years and years. They've known that they weren't financially stable since 2017, and they haven't taken serious measures to address it. Even back in 2022, they got a memo, this district, showing that Minneapolis had about half as many students per building as Anoka Hannepin School District. And what have they done with that information? Have they have they uh uh adjusted the way they're functioning at all? No. No, they've passed a lot of resolutions and they've done a lot of studies and they've apparently hired tons of consultants and legal teams to investigate. But it seems like no actual hard budget work has been done to try to get themselves out of this mess.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_03And the whole driving force behind this that you have to remember is it all goes back to the circle of education funding. One of the senior executive officers, Ryan Strach, said publicly that, you know, mu and this is a district official acknowledging this, that much of the trouble that the district is in is because of the higher benefit costs that were part of the Minneapolis's collective bargaining agreement. That's benefits, that's circle of education funding. This is, and Bill Walsh talks about this all the time, but schools and school systems are a piece of. People business. Like 70% of a district's budget is teacher salaries and teacher benefits because that's how they run. But when we talk about budget shortfalls, we talk about, you know, music classes getting cut and art teachers getting fired and bus routes getting cut, we're always focused on the 30%. That is not staff costs, that's not benefit costs. That's not, you know, training and development. It's the 30% that's, you know, the books and the buses and the art classes. And that's a serious problem because then you get these panic headlines that you know the Minnesota media happily supplies talking about how sad it is these classes are getting cut and how we need more funding. The schools need more funding. And that's probably why this school district thinks that they're just gonna be able to go back to the taxpayer, ask for more money, and get out of the$75 million hole that they're in.
SPEAKER_02Right. The uh it's really the teachers' unions that are able to um strong arm these districts into taking on contracts that they can't afford. And now it's the students who suffer because they can't do anything about that 70%. They've signed an agreement that says, yep, we can do that even though we can't afford it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but the superintendent quit after signing this agreement because they knew the district couldn't afford it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. And then it's like you get the headlines, uh, sorry, your kids are gonna have to walk to school barefoot because we can't afford them to have anywhere to sit. Like we're we're getting rid of all the chairs. You know, it's like, what is going on? Like, what? But that's how it happens. They force them into these contracts that they can't afford.
SPEAKER_03And clearly it's not paying off. Like this system that we've been under is not working. Literally, less than half of Minneapolis's students can read a grade level, and only 35% meet math expectations. So that's another element of this, is they're getting bigger salary packages, bigger benefits packages, and the kids are doing worse and worse and worse every single year. Where is the accountability? It's like if I showed up and did a worse job at my office every single day, and then because of the union I was part of, I kept getting raises every single year.
SPEAKER_02Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_03That doesn't work in any other environment.
SPEAKER_02No, and there's no meritocracy. Teachers who do a great job teaching kids and are helping them learn to read and do math are paid no more than the teachers who just sit there on their phones and say, Don't kill yourselves while you're in my room for an hour. Yeah. Which is so absurd. No other system works like that. And if it did work like that, we would start to see much better results from our kids.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Stay tuned, basically, for the Minneapolis School District to turn around and ask for more taxpayer money for them to, I guess, spend on studies and resolutions. Of course, as always.
SPEAKER_02Well, let's move on to our last topic, which is uh House DFLers introduce a bill to punish cities and counties which fly the old state flag. We're back to more flag drama. Uh this was sparked by the fact that Invergrove Heights was the latest city to vote to fly the old flag, joining a list of others who have done the same. Um a number of House DFLers got together and decided we cannot have this, this cannot stand, this is horrible. Uh and they've introduced House File 5077, which would legislate a reduction to local government aid to a county or city that uses the incorrect state flag, I believe, up to 10%, which is quite a quite a significant amount.
SPEAKER_03Which is so funny. Like they're taking a page out of the Trump administration's book. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Really?
SPEAKER_03The Trump administration is like, hey, if you're not gonna follow our anti-racism policies and get DEI out of your programs, uh, we're gonna not give you any more federal funds. Maybe they're learning. Maybe they're learning.
SPEAKER_02Wow, that's very interesting. The state flag, as you or the state, as you know, retired the old flag in May of 2024. Um, and some other cities have have joined Invergrove Heights in reverting to the old flag uh in recent months. St. Francis, Zamroda, Elk River. Um, those are just a few on the long list. Another one I saw was Champlain, and the representative, the guy who actually represents the Champlain area, signed onto this bill. So he would like to defund his own city in some ways. It's just that's a very interesting dynamic.
SPEAKER_03I hope he's not up for re-election anytime soon.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I know.
SPEAKER_03I don't know. It's pretty interesting. Uh state DFL rep Mike Freeberg is one of the authors on the bill. This is what he had to say. I've been a little disappointed in the cities around Minnesota that have been kind of manufacturing this culture war over the state flag. I felt like it was important for there to be kind of a statement legislatively in support of the new state flag, which is the official state flag.
SPEAKER_02Wait, he's seeing the people who are reverting to the old flag manufactured a culture war. The culture war was manufactured by the people who all of a sudden claimed that the flag from the 80s is racist. It's absolutely not racist. You're the one who started this culture war, if you want to call it that. The people that are voting to go back to the old flag are just like, please don't involve us in your narrative. Like, we're gonna do our thing, leave us alone.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like we didn't vote for this. No. It's actually shocking, like, how few people in the state are in support of the new flag. Or think of Minnesota poll back in May 2024, right when the new flag was rolled out, basically, found that an overwhelming majority of Minnesotans oppose the new flag. Only 24 persores 24 percent support using the new flag, which was designed by this little committee empowered by the legislature. This was not like a vote that was taken across the state. And only this is interesting, only six percent of poll respondents had no opinion. You're you're either for new flag, yeah, for the old flag. It's uh so basically twice as many Minnesotans preferred to keep the old flag as wanted to use the new one. And that's why this process is so frustrating for so many people. And I think why we're seeing cities do this kind of unusual move and vote to keep flying the old one and and kind of disregard the law that the new legislature passed. Um, because they don't feel like they were their opinion was asked. Right.
SPEAKER_02No, and it totally wasn't. It was like this weird system, like that episode of the office where they're putting beans on people's faces, that's like literally what they did. They were like, Do you know what I'm talking about? Michael's trying to decide like who should get a raise, I think, or something. And they're putting beans on people's faces for like if they liked them, him and Jim and someone else. Anyway, that's what they did. They went around and they had pictures of flags, and they were like, ooh, like bean next to the flag. I like it. It was the same process. It was absurd. I was like, this is literally an episode of The Office. But everyone has an opinion, as we found out in our poll. So let us know what yours is in the comments down below. Because I, for one, started out being like, don't really care about the flag, frankly, like do whatever. And now I'm totally team old flag, at least the version from the 80s that we've had forever. Like it's our state's history. It's our state's history. Stop trying to just, you know, get rid of it because you found some nonsense racism in the flag that doesn't exist. I liked it. I think we should keep it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. It's this is gonna, this issue is not gonna go away anytime soon. Um the way that they rolled out the new flag was really odd that there was there was language in the bill in the new law that mandated that cities switch over to the new seal like immediately. So it wasn't as though you know you could wait for the you know the patches on the uniforms to decay and fall off and have to replace them, and then you'd use the new one. No, they had to do it immediately. There wasn't any such language, it seems, for the new flag. So, yes, there's a new state flag, but cities were not mandated in this law to start flying it right away. So there might actually be a case to be made that cities can make their own decisions. Yeah. Now, is the legislature gonna allow that? Probably not. But it'll be an issue to me.
SPEAKER_02I mean, Lisa Damas said that bill is dead on arrival. As we know, we're totally split in um in the house. So we'll we'll see. I mean, I don't think anything's going anywhere, including this bill.
SPEAKER_03Just pray that we don't have another trifecta in our future.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03Well, now we're gonna switch over to talking with our own healthcare policy fellow, Matt Dean, who is gonna give us uh an update on the drama that is unfolding with Hennepin County Medical Center. He's got a great breakdown, so stay tuned. American Experiment is supported by thousands of individuals like you. To join the movement, go to www.americanexperiment.org and click the yellow donate button. From all of us here, thank you. We are so happy to welcome to the show now Matt Dean, who is our healthcare policy fellow here at Center of the American Experiment, and who also served in the Minnesota Legislature House uh for many, many years. Uh Matt, we are so happy to have you with us.
SPEAKER_04Well, thanks for having me back. It's good to be here and uh could be the last uh podcast with the studio.
SPEAKER_03We are so close to our new set reveal, guys. It's gonna be really, really cool.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you came all in a snazzy suit jacket and everything. You look real nice next time you come in.
SPEAKER_04I think it's gonna be it's gonna be done. It'll be great. No more beer light, no more uh no more wood paneling from the basement. It's gonna be nice.
SPEAKER_03Beer light. It really is. We're glad to have your expertise this week because of course the story is blowing up that HCMC, uh Hampine County Medical Center is grossly, grossly over budget. There's there's no more funds left to keep it running. And you have such an interesting history of healthcare policy work and reform. Uh you years ago, you know, passed uh anti-fraud legislation, I know, for Medicaid Medicare, um, worked on policies allowing hospitals to directly contract their care, policies to increase patient choice. Uh so would you, before we dive into the HCMC story, just give us a brief a brief walkthrough of your health care policy background?
SPEAKER_04Sure. Um Well, I served in the Minnesota House uh in my first year there. Uh Fran Bradley was the the chair of the Health and Human Services Committee. He asked me to rank his committee very highly. So I felt like a draft pick, like, oh my goodness, you know, the the chair of the committee wants me to be on this committee and I'm gonna rank it number one. He said, Don't rank anything else. And I got on the committee, you know, I was all excited. And then I realized that no one ever wants to be on the Health and Human Services Committee. So that's how I got on. And why is that? Because it's just it's very complicated and there's a lot of bills, there's a lot of stress, and uh it it does it impacts more than a million people directly. So it there is uh not a lot of members want to get into it because it's a very deep area that has a lot of work and it's a lot of stress.
SPEAKER_03Wait, so legislators rank which committees they want to serve on? Is that how that works?
SPEAKER_04It is, it's how they work. And then there's a committee on committees that puts people in different government at its finest.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, really?
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. There's a committee on committees. Of course there is. And that's that's where you wind up on committees. So long story short, I was Do you have to rank the committee on committees?
SPEAKER_02I'm sorry, I'll stop now.
SPEAKER_04The committee on committees is appointed.
SPEAKER_02That's even more government.
SPEAKER_03Oh, classic.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, and um, but you you get on the committees, they try to balance it out with different kinds of people on different kinds of committees. And so I didn't have a background in healthcare, uh, but uh was able to kind of jump in in about 15 minutes. I was an expert uh because if you you know focus in on it, um there's not a lot of people who focus in on it even within the committees. So uh there was a great opportunity for me to have a bigger impact even as a freshman um and to be on a conference committee um and immediately, and so that was really kind of a good opportunity for me. And I've tried to have other uh members along the way try to jump on the committee and not be afraid of it, and you can do a lot of good and you get a lot of good people. Lobbyists are genuinely, genuinely good people in that area, so you can really have a good impact. So that's why I liked it. I stayed on it the entire time and uh was uh able to chair the committee for my last four years, so it was fun.
SPEAKER_02So if you would just set up this issue with us, uh it's an issue for us with HCMC, because I'm guessing um a lot of our listeners have seen these like panic headlines I keep seeing in local news. Um one of them I think uh said, yeah, it it's close to closing its doors altogether and only has seven days of cash on hand as compared to um the average hospital has a hundred some days cash on hand. Um what is going on there? What's what's happening and and what's afflicting HCMC right now?
SPEAKER_04Sure. So first of all, HCMC is Hennepin County Medical Center. It's the big hospital right next to the US Bank Stadium downtown. So if you've never been there, it's a great big modern building downtown that has the very busy emergency room department, lots of you know, fire trucks and police officers going in and out. If you've been downtown, you you probably remember where it is. Um and as I tell my kids uh that you know, don't go downtown Minneapolis particularly after midnight, except, except if you are in a car accident or if you are shot or if you are really need help at any time, uh, or if you're in a a um if you're in an ambulance and you see the EMT looks a little green around the gills looking at you, you go, take me to HCMC. Hospital for trauma care if you get shot, if you're in a car accident, if you're really sick and in a bad way, there is no better place in the state that you can go. They have excellent trauma surgeons, they have uh neurosurgeons, they have the best of the best, and it's always kind of collected really good physicians over the years and nurses and uh lots of folks. So it is the best place if you are really sick to be in the state. I've always tried to make sure that we fund it properly, that uh also uh that the training opportunities are there for medical students so that if you go into work on trauma patients, whether you're a nurse or physician, uh that our doctors learn there through the University of Minnesota and do residency uh training through Mayo, you can uh you can rotate through and get lots of great experience and uh not just experience with watching patients who are very sick, but also hands-on experience with uh care. So that's super important that we keep that for training and for trauma. However, um HCMC has always drifted off to become the food shelf of the state, it's become you know the outreach center of the state, it's become the social center of the state, doing a lot of social stuff, really losing focus along the way. So that's always been a little bit of a trick and trying to budget and trying to keep them on tack on track. And also uh within the last few years, uh they've been hemorrhaging money really bad, like a lot of hospitals have been, uh, but with uncompensated care and with money losses just going uh going out the front door. It was first taken over by a committee, another committee, uh, because they were losing so much money. And that money actually or that that committee actually went backwards, and now they're in even more trouble. So the Hennepin County Board took it over. And if you've watched the Hennepin County Board for any of their meetings, you can probably understand that they're probably not the folks that you would choose to run a hospital. Okay, so their focuses are on things like social justice, environment, those kinds of things, and less so on uh health care, particularly level one trauma center and education hospital, and teaching our our physicians and nurses how to deal with very sick patients and taking care of very sick patients. So that's what we need to focus on. They somewhat lose that. And so that was the article that we had um in the the magazine was really about why we need to make sure that HCMC stays open and we follow that up with some work just about their lack of focus and where they're headed. So that's kind of the context for hey, we're we're a conservative organization, we want really good solutions, but HCMC in downtown Minneapolis is really, really a great place that attracts really good people, and we want to make sure that we keep it open.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you've written before how they've got this amazing track record. Like they were one of the biggest servers during the 35W bridge collapse and the Annunciation School shooting just last fall, and not a single victim that was brought there in either of those tragedies uh died, had a had a had a fatality. That's incredible. Um you mentioned also a minute ago uncompensated care. Can you just explain what that is?
SPEAKER_04Sure. Um uncompensated care is money is is care that you don't get paid for. So the hospital doesn't get paid for. Right. So if if they do something to you that is not covered by insurance because you don't have insurance or because it's not covered under your policy, they do it anyway, let's say in the emergency room, they don't have a choice. They don't say, hey, would you like us to stop this bleeding right now? They can't say that. They just do it. Um and so not all of that gets paid for.
SPEAKER_03How is that possible? How is it does I mean the the bill must go to someone eventually, right? The state, the taxpayer? Are we footing the bill?
SPEAKER_04Well, uh within Hennepin County, yeah, we are foot footing a lot of the bill because the majority of patients are on Medicaid or Medicare. And that is all taxpayer or not all of Medicare, but all of Medicaid is basically taxpayer funded. So uh a lot of the programs that are in there are taxpayer funded, and we uh we understand that. However, um all hospitals have care that they don't get paid for, that they negotiate with the insurance companies or with the uh or with the patients. So that's where they're really stacking up. So and if you look at it, like Medicaid and Medicare might pay, you know, 70 cents, 60 cents on the dollar and different, you know, of what the actual cost of care is, and your insurance might pay over the cost of care for private insurance. So that mix between the people who are on Medicaid and Medicare versus on private insurance is what they call payer mix. And if you have most of the people in your hospital are on Medicaid and Medicare, you really are in kind of you're starting behind. So as fewer and fewer people are on private health insurance.
SPEAKER_02It's like paying for the services twice if you're on private health care, because you pay for them with your tax dollars and then you pay more for the service, or your insurance does on your behalf, I guess.
SPEAKER_04Yes. And so, like for for example, in the last year, so everybody under 200% of the federal poverty guideline in Minnesota is covered for free.
SPEAKER_01Holy cow.
SPEAKER_04So you are paying for that for folks, and underneath that for children, it's higher. So, for example, last year in 2025, Minnesota took care of 20,000 illegal immigrants on Minnesota care. So a lot of people are saying, hey, that's not fair. I pay more and more and I get less and less from my health care policy while other people pay less and less and get more and more, including illegal immigrants in the 20,000 last year. So part of that is we're looking at is that part of the uncompensated care that we're paying for within HCMC because so many of the people who were on that program are in the metro. So if if they're having to pick up that cost of the illegal immigrants' health care, um, you know, we should know that, know how much we're paying for that.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Yeah, no kidding. Do you think that is a major part of that health care that isn't paid for is illegal immigrants, or are we just not sure about the number yet?
SPEAKER_04Aaron Powell Well, that's one of the things we're looking into, is like saying, okay, we have this uncompensated care, but Minnesota used to have, you know, we used to have a program for people who were low income. We had a peep for uh we had a program for people who were hard to insure because of preexisting conditions. So we had like a state-based program for just about everything. And then when Obamacare came in, they said, Oh, Minnesota, you've done such a great job. Step back. You've got a sick tax, get rid of that sick tax, you're not gonna have to pay for all this anymore because Obamacare has come in and we're gonna take care of all of these people, and hospitals are gonna do well. Now, fast forward, the hospitals are still doing poorly. Uh, however, our uncompensated care numbers are going up, and our uninsured numbers are going up actually back to 2001 levels. So we're at uh 6% uh people who are uninsured now, which is the same as it was before we had Obamacare. So we've gone backwards.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell And this is before my time, obviously. So the pitch for Obamacare was we don't want anyone in our country to be uninsured, right? We want to make sure everyone has access to health insurance in some way.
SPEAKER_04Aaron Powell Correct. And Minnesota, we're kind of a do-gooder place. So we had we had already met every one of the measuring sticks for Obamacare. So we say we should be the last one to jump in this pool, not the first, but of course in 2011 we were one of the first states to do it because we're so smart. And the sick tax uh that we have, which is Minnesota only, which we tax ourselves, Mark Dayton agreed to get rid of. And um now that's of course back and it's growing.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Ross Powell People sometimes blame Trump's cuts to um you know funding for healthcare, Medicaid Medicare as being the reason that hospitals are not having as much money. Because I know that there's some rural hospitals too, places, not just HDMC that are facing budgeting issues. Is there any truth to that, it being Trump's fault?
SPEAKER_04Well, there will be in the next year less of an less uh money going towards uh additional private health insurance. So these were COVID, temporary COVID spiffs for private health insurance through the exchange. That's a very small number across the state. It will not match up with the cuts that they're looking at. But if you look at since 2000, uh hospital costs, um there's only one cost that's even close to the escalation. in hospital costs and that's private uh or that's uh college for kids. If you look at what, you know, and from an affordability standpoint of saving money for your kids' college or paying for it or for yourself, nothing's gone up faster uh since 2000 than health or than uh hospital costs.
SPEAKER_03Interesting. So there's a lot of different proposals floating around right now as to how to fix HCMC's budget problem. Now one of the ones that I saw you talking about was expanding this this so-called like temporary twins tax that was passed like 20 years ago to help fund the building of Target Field. First of all, why is that tax even still in place? And do you think that that's a good solution? Wait, we're still paying for Target Field? It exists.
SPEAKER_04We're almost done. We're almost done but we're gonna take that tax and we're gonna blow it up seven times and we're gonna use it to pay for HCMC. So does that sound like a good idea? My grandpa said there's nothing more permanent than a temporary solution. And he was right and especially when taxes are involved they never go away. They just stay there forever. And you you look at it and you go, that doesn't seem like it should cost that much. If we've got all these programs for uninsured people and uncompensated care and bad debt and charity care, can't we get our arms around this a little better? So I was looking at um some of their reports and this is it's kind of funny uh actually but this is I was looking at the Hennepin County 2026 budget presentation okay they're looking at disparities okay in health care. We want to make sure that everybody gets good health care. So they're touting their recent victories okay they planted 70,540 square feet of urban agriculture okay so Minnesota's an egg state right we're good at growing stuff agriculture right 70540 square feet. Now it's not 7000 acres not 7000 hectares not 7000 sections which is what you know farmers talk in this is square feet 7000 square feet of agriculture and that number is stuck in my head because that's how much grass I mow in my yard 7000 square feet because I I buy 70,000 square feet of fertilizer at the Hugo feed mill from Steve every year. And that's that's what he sets aside for me about 7000 square feet. So Hennepin County has matched me in agriculture and wait the hospital though this is this is Hennepin County Hennepin County wide that they're got it okay all of the county they're they're really working on that and um so they've also spent$50 million in 2025 they spent$50 million on DEI which is the exact amount of the shortfall for the Hennepin County Medical Center so run by the Hennepin County Board. So that you say well what is that all about what are they they doing then that with that money well they're they're doing a lot of coaching um they had they had a health equity team 15 collective led events with more than 2000 Hennepin County Medical Center employees participated in uh in these sessions for mandatory training. And it's you kind of look at it and you go well what are they what are they learning? And um the the two hour presentation one hour one hour presentation this one was one hour in the LGBTQIA plus two spirit group um talked about gender and sexuality differences pronouns dead dead naming trans identities and allyship so if you look at it and you just say wow that's that's quite a lot of employee time going to the health health equity seminar and clim and climate change they have 10 employees the county has 10 employees that do nothing but climate crisis work.
SPEAKER_03Oh my gosh climate crisis oh it's you're one county you're one county in one state in one country on this globe and they have 10 people dedicated to solving the climate crisis they do the sense of self-importance is unbelievable.
SPEAKER_04And uh yeah and and the the amount of money is just unbelievable with climate and resiliency in 2025 they spent 10 million dollars just on climate and resiliency.
SPEAKER_02Dude oh my God and they complain that yeah Trump is taking away money from people he is why they can't get health care. It's like it's clearly not a priority for them it's clearly a talking point because if it was more of a priority, I see plenty of things that are uh cuttable in this list.
SPEAKER_03Priority is exactly the right word too. I mean think as a society if you have one person who's been shot and needs trauma care at HCMC and one person who wants to talk about DEI and pronouns and identity I I sort of feel like the gunshot victim should take priority. We should be finding that more so than the DEI seminars.
SPEAKER_04Go on with you it's it well I mean but if you're if you're at a workplace you probably need training like you know here at the Center of the American Experiment you have training you have a some employee we look at that. Do you guys ever do pauses? Pauses pause pauses I pause I pause right now the um there the action team for this uh trauma investigation group is meeting with um meeting with people across their teams across the Hennepin County teams are looking for allyship the team is holding healing pauses so it is literally like P-A-U-S-E pause healing pauses okay yep this is for the employees the team is holding healing pauses at Huddle every morning every morning with themes of gratitude breathing mindfulness and emotional regulation so don't you wouldn't you're uh like I'm if I'm an employee there I'm I don't have time for all this stuff yeah you would think the uh so you know that's one of the things we're we're looking at is to say look okay you you have uncompensated care you have bad debt you have charity care we understand all that how much of that has to do with the fact that your employees are spread so thin because they can't keep up with this stuff you know are you a food shelf are you an outreach organization or do you train physicians to care for level one trauma care in an urban setting you know that's really what we're looking at. So we'd say you can tighten the belt but we also want to say what are some other solutions that we can look at even if you got rid of all the silly stuff, you probably would still be in trouble. So what can we do to change policy that would actually allow you to focus more on training and more on taking care of patients who are very sick so that we can actually keep your doors open in the long term. And one of the things that we looked at um several years ago was we gave them a pool of money and we said you can take care of patients however you deem fit without the chains of saying I have to have this benefit set, we have to look at this what if you had more flexibility in dealing with patients that are hard to manage, people who are really sick, people who have chemical dependency, hypertension, diabetes, persistent mental illness or a combination which is very common for folks uh what if you what if you could deal with them like with a nurse-centered practice where they had a medical home where they dealt with a nurse and then you could decide whether or not to admit them or not and you could save some of the money that we're putting towards these patients if you manage their health better, which they did and they were able to actually reduce readmissions by 50%. And then we expanded Medicaid. So they all just went on straight Medicaid and they were admitted to the hospital. So it was it was a very good it was a very good trial for about 18 months where we actually looked at allowing them more flexibility and dealing with hard to care for patients.
SPEAKER_02Well yeah and and part of that too is like they serve as a place for things like mental health care or people that are there in the long term too, right? Or we need more options. We just don't have options other than these emergency care places. Is that right? Because there's I I feel like there's nowhere to go. If you need long-term mental health care, um a lot of times they just end up in the hospital and then I'm sure everyone who's listening has had the the experience of someone they love, you know, trying to get care and they say we have no beds. Sorry, you know it's been a huge problem I feel like in Minnesota. So would that help if we had more options for like mental health care and things like that?
SPEAKER_04Well the for particularly with mental health care coordination is so important. So if you're hypertensive, diabetic and you have persistent mental illness and you have chemical dependency, you're probably not taking your medication the way you should. So if you could check in with a nurse say every week just to take one medication that's like the most important medication, just come in and we'll do this maybe get you lunch and then instead of admitting you for a test two days later maybe you stay at a hotel and they would put you at the hotel which is probably$130 a night instead of you know$1700 a night. And then they they come back and they go to their they go to their their test. So we we if with flexibility like that you can actually coordinate care with hard to coordinate patients better. And also it's so if if you said HCMC, what if we just give you instead of giving the money to Blue Cross Blue Shield, what if we gave you the money to take care of Grace every month and if um you if you get 95 cents on the dollar for Medicaid and you got to keep whatever she didn't spend, you could put that money in your pocket they might be able to say yeah you know what we can keep her out of the hospital we they would have skin in the game for keeping Grace healthy. So we're looking at some options like that. Dave Zimmer is also kind of leading an effort on um homelessness and on uh civil commitments for people who just cannot care for themselves and it's not humane to have them living on the street under a tarp in Minnesota because they have they have uh uh mental illness or chemical dependency or both uh to try to get them some help. So we're we're looking at that where that's also going to be a big uh help to HCMC if those initiatives get traction.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Ross Powell So that's my question. So I I like everything you're saying. I love the idea of cutting all the DEI nonsense and using that to fund HCMC. Probably not going to happen though. Realistically in looking at the next six months how do you think this is going to play out are they just going to raise Hennevin County's taxes and not address sort of the structural issues that are going on with the budget?
SPEAKER_04Well I it there's there's two things that the legislature is really good at and it's doing nothing and overreacting. So I would expect that they'll probably do nothing um given the time of the year that we're in right now. But HCMC is going to need some help if they're gonna stay open they've cut beds and they're looking at cutting more dollars they are not going to cut the crazy stuff uh because they're in love with the crazy stuff apparently so um what I see they actually will propose doing some of that I would imagine however but they will need some increased revenue or or more flexibility or both and I hope that the legislators are looking at that and saying yeah we do need to keep HCMC open it's worth it and some of the other struggling hospitals probably should look at that as well and say yeah they do need that because for example where I live in in uh Washington County Stillwater you know when when when they have a car accident that's really bad they don't go to Stillwater they go to regions or HCMC or so we really do rely on these trauma centers um in the suburban areas as well as well as in greater Minnesota as well they'll fly people to HCMCO regions uh if you're really sick. So there everybody has um a stake in making sure that they stay open.
SPEAKER_03Well Matt thank you so much for joining us today and walking us through this issue. If you want to hear more of his analysis you can find it all at americanexperiment.org thank you Matt thanks for having me thank you to everyone who made it all the way to the end of this week's episode of the American Experiment Podcast.
SPEAKER_02Please head on over to Apple and Spotify and give us a five star review. It helps other people find the show and remember to answer our question of the day about the state flag in the comments on the YouTube video.
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