American Experiment Podcast
Why are so many Minnesota high school graduates unable to read or do math at grade level? Does Tim Walz actually think he's going to be the next president of the United States? And why does he keep swearing so much?
These are the kinds of hard-hitting questions we get into every week on the American Experiment Podcast, where we unpack the week's biggest stories, interview Minnesota's movers and shakers, and "stop the tape" on clips of our state's most ridiculous elected officials.
New episodes drop every Tuesday afternoon and are available on every major podcasting platform.
American Experiment Podcast
Episode 129 - Minnesota KILLER Gets $4.5M From TAXPAYERS
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
A convicted murderer walks away with $4.5 MILLION from taxpayers...
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What was in the Feds’ latest Minnesota fraud update (and does it validate Nick Shirley)? What do Minnesotans think of the state of the state as we head into midterm elections? And why is the Minneapolis Public School district building a brand-new $105 million school while facing a $50 million deficit? We unpack it all this week. On the back half, David Zimmer shares a jaw-dropping story of the multiple levels of government failure that led to a murderer walking free and now, inexplicably, receiving $4.5 million from the state.
QOTW: What did you do to honor Memorial Day?
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Welcome back to the American Experiment Podcast. Catherine, what do we have on the docket today? Well, this week we'll give you the latest fraud updates from the feds, plus a little bit of a win for Nick Shirley. Then a look at what Minnesotans think of the state of the state ahead of the upcoming midterm elections. And finally, a story about the Minneapolis Public School District and its plans to build a new $105 billion Ashonabwe Academy School. We'll explain why this is an insane idea. On the back half, Dave Zimmer brings us another jaw-dropping story of multiple levels of government failure that have led to a murderer running free and now being granted four and a half million dollars of taxpayer money. Let's dive in. And we have a question of the week, of course, as we always do. So please head on over to the YouTube page and let us know. How did you honor Memorial Day weekend? Did you do anything fun, interesting, or special um to honor the weekend? Did you, Grace?
SPEAKER_02I was, if you can't tell, uh I was feeling a little under the weather, and so I unfortunately couldn't do anything but lay in bed and uh and blow my nose. So well, I'm so glad you made it to the podcast. Your first priority, of course. Of course. I know I'm I'm better, but my voice is still a little, it's a little, it's not quite there yet. So apologies to everyone listening. I know I'm not I'm not quite quite back yet.
SPEAKER_03Well, I heard that Governor Walls had plans. He was supposed to be at Fort Snelling doing a um Memorial Day uh I think I think he was supposed to be on the program for uh for a ceremony at Fort Snelling, and according to Liz Collin, he did not show up. People pointed out that instead he was at George Floyd Square and he was dancing. I think we actually have a clip of that uh viewer discretion advised for this one.
SPEAKER_02Not bad for an old white guy.
SPEAKER_03Not bad for an old white guy. That's what he says there at the end.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for that, Governor. Is this the new version of Jacob Fry doing the little like what was he? It was what was it was like a line dance or something, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he was in a parade. Well, he's done a lot of dancing, I think, in his time as mayor. But um, the one that I remember is he's wearing a short short. Yep, and he's in a parade, real low to the ground. Um yeah. Yeah. So I wish all politicians would stop dancing um immediately, please. Uh for Trump.
SPEAKER_02The Trump, like so true. This is iconic. No one else is gonna come close to this.
SPEAKER_03So but we saw that this weekend a lot. It was um six years since the death of George Floyd, and many of our political leaders chose to honor that um instead of Memorial Day. So a little bit of a. Which is insane.
SPEAKER_02It's insane. Like I've I've got ancestors, I've got relatives buried at Fort Snelling, I'm sure you do as well. It's such a spit in the face, and it's completely on par with the lack of consideration for American history, the lack of pride for Minnesotan history. Um, I'm not surprised.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's so true. There is a lack of pride, and it's sad because we all should be so proud and and and so honored to have the ancestors that we do that uh fought and died for um our country and for Minnesota, too. Yeah. Well, let's jump into our first story. Um, people probably know and heard about the Justice Department and other federal leaders being in Minnesota last week. They announced a new round of fraud charges against 15 defendants for Medicaid fraud schemes. The defendants allegedly participated in various schemes to defraud federal benefit programs totaling over 90 million in intended loss. The charges included the two largest Medicaid fraud cases ever charged in Minnesota and first of their kind charges for certain Medicaid programs. Now, I don't know about you, Grace, but when I heard this, I thought, hmm. 15. Interesting. I mean, it's sad to be underwhelmed by $90 million in fraud right now, but that was kind of where I was at. What about you?
SPEAKER_02I don't know. It I hope there's more coming. We keep hearing that the avalanche of fraud charges and and and revelations that have been coming out over the last year is not done yet, that they're likely to gonna continue through the next several months, well into the summer. And I hope that's right. I expect that there's much more.
SPEAKER_03Um, so yeah, they have repeatedly said um this is just the beginning. They said that at the press conference too. So I hope they're right. Um they they always get into these press conferences and they describe this web of fraud um that makes it sound very extensive. And we all know it is extensive, it is a web of fraud. They once again described some kickback schemes where people were um, you know, getting kickbacks for getting these benefits. And I don't know, like I feel like they're just focusing on the people at the top, but if you stole any amount of taxpayer dollars, that money could have been used for something so much better that we really need. Um Representative Max Reimer pointed out when we were on the radio um just last week that there was a school safety package for about $50 million that didn't go through at the end of session. And with $90 million, they could have put the whole thing through and then some. So when you think about the money that's stolen, even small amounts, it could be used for things so much greater. And I hope they take seriously that. I don't care if you only get the people that stole four and a half million, if you were knowingly getting kickbacks of $1,500 a month, jail, in my humble opinion.
SPEAKER_02And Minnesota has to set the example here because everyone is watching us. We are the epicenter of the fraud that has been unfolding in this country for the last several years. And everyone around the nation is looking to us to see are they gonna charge, are they gonna hold accountable the people who stole from the taxpaying citizens of Minnesota? And we have to take seriously this idea that we are are letting every potential fraudster out there know that you can't get away with this anymore.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's not worth it because we see some of the charges that have come, um, or people who have even been found guilty. I remember there was a case where just recently he was found guilty and he did some jail time, nine months or something, and then had to pay back a very small amount of the money he had stolen. And if you think about it, if you stole over a million dollars, you had to pay back about 10% and spend nine months in jail, that's not like such a bad trade-off, you know? So we need to make sure that the trade-off is not beneficial for the fraudsters. Yeah. Well, last week in other fraud news, Nick Shirley got a win when Fahima Egg Mohammed was charged with wire fraud and conspiracy to defraud the United States. Prosecutors say that Mohammed was the CEO of Future Leaders Early Learning, a daycare center in Minneapolis near George Floyd Square. I wonder if Walls was dancing nearby. Authorities say Mohammed enrolled the daycare into the federal child nutrition program through Feeding Our Future, and falsely claimed to serve thousands of meals at her child care center. In total, prosecutors say the daycare pocketed more than 4.6 million from CCAP, plus an additional 850,000 from the Federal Child Nutrition Program. Now, this is a win for Nick Shirley because Mohammed was featured in his video back in February. He went to her daycare and knocked on the door, and I believe even spoke to her for a minute. But as we all remember, the left was adamant that Nick Shirley's video was total fake news, that it was all fraudulent. DFL Party Chair Richard Carl Baum called Shirley a YouTube conspiracy theorist. Star Tribune reporter Deanna Winter claimed she went to the same 10 daycares that Nick Shirley did and found, quote, lots of children. Then just three weeks ago, Representative Dave Pinto, who is a DFL representative from um St. Paul, stated, I will remind all of us that our local media looked into the Nick Shirley video and fully debunked it. Fully debunked.
SPEAKER_02Fully debunked. No fraudsters. Everyone was leering, it was all fine. They're doing great. But here we've got charges finally filed. Yeah, tell that to Muhammad. I mean, oh my gosh, she's going to jail for a long time. Someone should let the prosecutors know. It's good. It was debunked.
SPEAKER_03She's fine. I just, I mean, it's so crazy they continue with their narratives and they are always on the wrong side of the fraud issue. Like, come on. I mean, time after time again, they're not taking the fraud issue seriously. They are pretending there's nothing to see here. It's like, why do you keep covering up for these people? Especially when I feel like they could scapegoat walls if they wanted now that he's out of the race, but they don't.
SPEAKER_02They just still deny, deny, deny. And they can't pick a lane either because you saw as the session wrapped up, they were working really hard to frame themselves as a tough on fraud party. And yet, what what are we a week later? We were still hearing the this this idea that, you know, oh, it was all debunked, the fraud wasn't real. I mean, they they have to pick a lane.
SPEAKER_03Well, uh, another story we had on AmericanExperiment.org this week, and also an op-ed that John Phelan had in the Minnesota Star Tribune was uh was an interesting look at what Minnesotans are thinking right now, kind of about the state of the state. So in March 2019, for the first time, we here at American Experiment polled the question: generally speaking, would you say that things in Minnesota are going in the right direction, or have they gotten off the wrong track? And this is kind of a common polling question: right track, wrong track, where do you think our state is headed? Well, in 2019, 57% of respondents said right direction, and only 38 said wrong direction. But by June 2021, wrong track was up three points. And it has only gotten worse since then. When we last polled the question in February of this year, only 27% of respondents said that Minnesota is going in the right direction, while 65% said it is on the wrong track.
SPEAKER_02That is horrific. Two to one for wrong track. I mean, that is such an indictment on. I mean, because which party, which governor has had control of the state for however many years now?
SPEAKER_03And that whole time, that polling has changed. Um, again, from 57% in 2019 of respondents saying we're headed in the right direction to only 27% saying that we're going in the right direction. Governor Walls was governor that entire time. So the Democrats were in power. And it's just such an interesting thing because I think that the media often tries to gaslight us into thinking that that's not the case, that everything's good here, that people think everything's great in Minnesota. And I don't think that's quite true. There's always hardcore partisans, but I think a lot of people in the middle are feeling that Minnesota is not going in the right direction.
SPEAKER_02It's the gaslighting of, you know, Minneapolis and the Twin Cities Metro in Minnesota, consistently raking at the very, very top of every survey online best place to live, best place to eat, best place to work. Yeah, shout-up pocket wallet. Shout-up pocket wallet. Um and it just doesn't match with the reality that Minnesotans feel.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. Um, and they have good reason to feel this way. John Phelan pointed out a list of statistics that show the really unfortunate decline of Minnesota in recent years. And I pulled out some of the ones that I thought were kind of the most impactful. So here's one. In real terms, median household income in Minnesota has fallen by 6.4% since 2019, a worse performance than in 44 states. Another one is that the average earning Minnesotan handed over 4.9% of their 2025 wages to the state government, a higher share than in 43 out of 50 other states. In 2025, Minnesota's state government spent 6,000 plus per person, an amount higher than in 45 other states, and in real terms per capita increase of 18.5% between 2019 and 2025, which is greater than in 42 other states. That out-of-control spending we see in our state.
SPEAKER_02And the argument always is that we're paying higher taxes for a higher quality of life. Not really. If we lost what? And what is the number up to now? $9 billion to fraud. So we're paying some of the highest taxes in the country, we're not getting the quality of life benefit, and then we're throwing it down the drain anyway. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and we see this in other parts of the data. Since 2019, our state has lost residents in every age category and every income category above $25,000 annually.
SPEAKER_02Because that's always the argument, is it's just retirees leaving the colder weather. And the data just does not back that up at all.
SPEAKER_03No, and anecdotally, uh, lots of people I know flying out of here, getting out of Minnesota. It's a conversation in so many places that you go. So are you guys you guys gonna try and get out of Minnesota? It's not just retirees and snowbirds for sure. And John Phelan pointed out something that you just kind of touched on, Grace. Minnesotans can be forgiven for asking themselves, am I getting more out of state government in return for my taxes than the residents in those 43 other states? Am I getting 18.5% more in return than I was seven years ago? Because that's how much more we're paying. Think about seven years ago. Are you getting almost 20% more back from your state government? I feel like I'm getting less. Oh, for sure. Personally. No, it's true, because look at the state of our schools, for example. Our public schools, where we pour so much of this money, have only gone downhill and have only gotten worse and worse as we continue to spend more. And it's also not just impacting people at the highest levels, another DFL talking point. This is impacting people in the middle the most. Their taxes are going up like crazy, and those people in the middle are fleeing the state. The only residents that we're gaining are people making less than $25,000 a year who can benefit from our generous welfare programs.
SPEAKER_02And while schools are getting more and more money in tax dollars, as rating scores are going down and math scores are going down, the financial mismanagement is getting worse than ever, especially in Minneapolis. The final story we wanted to share with you guys today is of course the news that despite facing a $50 million deficit, the Minneapolis Public School District is planning to build a brand new, $105 million school building. Now, just a little fun fact, uh Minneapolis Public Schools has not been financially stable as a district since 2017. I think we covered this on the show a couple weeks ago. Um they've been bringing in consultant after consultant, spending tens of thousands of dollars just trying to figure out what is going on in their financial department because it's an absolute mess and it's not getting any better. They've had to fire people.
SPEAKER_03Do you remember when they lost $30 million? They lost, they lost $30 million and then it came back. Yes, but they don't know where it was in the interim. Yes. Part of the consultant coming in is to help them sort out like where did that money go? It's the bottom back, so they're like, it's okay.
SPEAKER_02No panic, it was gone temporarily. It went out of like a retirement fund or a healthcare fund or something. Seems terrible. I it's a mess. It's a mess over there. And what's so frustrating is right now the district, because of declining enrollment and again, just the insane mismanagement that's going on, they're paying for more square footage and more buildings than the district actually needs. A report came out in 2024 that found that more than half, 51% of MPS's school buildings were, quote, underutilized. And still they are investing or trying to invest over a hundred million dollars to build a brand new school building for a school that already has a space. The school in question is the Anishinaabe Academy School, which is a pre-K through fifth through fifth grade school, quote, dedicated to serving and educating the families of Minneapolis through an American Indian indigenous lens with a native-centered curriculum and through Ojibwe and Dakota language. Now, some context that was added here by Josiah Padley, who reported on this whole absurd story at AmericanExperiment.org, is that last year in 2025, just 7% of Anishinabe Academy's students were tested as proficient in math, 7% doing math at grade level, and 11% were doing reading at grade level. So they're no doing great. Wow. Seven and eleven percent. That's terrible. That's extremely sad. They are failing those kids on so many levels. Wow. No, as I mentioned, the school actually does have a building right now. It's not like the kids are out learning, you know, on the sidewalk or something. Okay. They've been sharing a space with another organization in South Minneapolis for about 15 years. They've been asking for a building of their own for a long time. Uh, and so this whole process to get them a building of their own started about two years ago. It would be a new, beautiful, three-story building centered around a nature-filled open gathering place, a rainwater classroom, and medicine gardens. So that's fun. I bet all of those things will help the kids do math and read at grade level much better. What's a medicine garden? Am I like culturally unaware? I bet it's where they grow medicine. Okay. Yeah. They'll also have a soccer field.
SPEAKER_03Oh, well, that's that's cheap. I do wonder about the reading and the math though. If there's plans for that baked into the 105 million or if it's more focused on the rainwater classroom. Is that like a state of the art? Like, what is there like a rain, rainwater coming down inside in the classroom? I have You're asking really good questions that I really don't have to do.
SPEAKER_02I'd love to see the blueprints of this uh of this design. I love to. There's also like no street parking, which is pretty funny. So if they want, let's see, an additional 30 parking spaces, which to me does not seem like a lot for a whole school, 30 parking spaces, they're gonna have to invest an additional three to five million in order to build some underground parking ramps. Okay. So bear in mind. Now, my little my little hot take on this scenario is that if they've been sharing a building with another organization for the last, you know, 15 or so years, maybe we just stick with that a little bit longer until the district is out of a $50 million hole that they've dug themselves into.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, have they considered consolidating any of the other buildings? Like could we give them an existing building and consolidate? They said, you know, the majority of these buildings are underutilized. Could they hop into one of those buildings? Could we push some classes together? Have we thought out every solution? Because 105 million does seem like we're jumping to um the most extreme.
SPEAKER_02Well, no, so the element that you're not getting here is that they want a non-colonial space for this school. So you gotta keep that in mind as well. An expansion to the existing building, even was ruled out by the community, the community, uh, due to its expression. This is a quote, due to its expression, that connection to trauma, that connection to history. One teacher at this school said that the best thing would be, oh, the best thing that would make this new school feel safe, quote, safe, is if, quote, it didn't look like a school, as a school is a source of trauma for our community.
SPEAKER_03That's you know what? Here's my hot take. That's a good point. A school is a source of trauma for many a child. When I drive by my middle school, I'm like, oh man, look the other direction.
SPEAKER_02Wow, that's crazy. So an adult said those words? An adult said those words. Yeah, it shouldn't look like a school, which is probably why we're gonna be learning in a what was it, a rain, a rain classroom?
SPEAKER_03Oh, in a medicine garden. Yeah, rainwater classroom. Rainwater classroom. Okay.
SPEAKER_02One of the planning team members described the future building as bordered by the Mississippi River, which would act as a teacher. Um, so again, they're gonna be, I'm sure, reading and doing math way better than before. They've got the river teaching them. Is this culturally insensitive? I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I think it's culturally insensitive to think that kids from certain communities shouldn't have to learn how to read. I mean, what in the world? That's culturally insensitive because you're setting these kids up for failure. Yeah. To say that they should prioritize indoor rainwater. Oh my gosh, no. Set these kids up for success. They need to learn how to read and they need to learn how to do basic math so that they can be successful adults. I'm sorry, but the river is not going to teach them how to do things that are gonna make them successful in the future.
SPEAKER_02That same planning member said the new Anishinabe Academy is imagined as a living village, a place alive with the rhythms of land and seasons of growth and rest. It is a place to learn, to make, to heal, and to gather. Again, I'm not hearing learning in that lineup. It sounds really nice for like a community center. A school, though. We're we're teaching the kids to r 11 and 7%. That's their proficiency. Just teach the kids to read and do math at grade level. That's all they need. Need to be set up for success, okay?
SPEAKER_03You know what I keep imagining. Have you seen like the famous Taylor Swift video where she's standing in the rain and it's coming down? And I think it should have said no. This is gonna connect to like one of our viewers, I swear. It's like a famous performance she did at an awards show, and it's coming down, and she's just stopping wet on the stage. It's so cool. Actually, yes, why are you thinking of this? Indoor rainwater, rainwater classroom. This is what they're doing. This is what they're going for. I think this is what they're going for. Maybe uh maybe from our older listeners, people who did not interact with Taylor Swift on such a level as me, maybe producer Isaac can just we'll throw a little picture up on there so you know what I'm talking about. Maybe this is what they're going for.
SPEAKER_02I think probably the best and worst detail of this entire story is that the only question about the building's cost that came up at this most recent school board meeting where they were discussing these plans came from an honorary student member of the board. None of the adults in the room were like, hey, $50 million deficit? Should we be spending $100 million on a new school? It took an honorary student board member to be like, so how much is this gonna cost? And then their reasons, their response to this member. Uh two reasons. Number one, funds for capital projects by law are separate from funding that can be used for teacher salaries, textbooks, and other classroom materials. Okay. But did they have money there? Did they have that money? Not that I'm aware of. And then number two, uh, the Anishinaabe community was promised this building.
SPEAKER_03I think that maybe the Minneapolis board should have thought of that before they got themselves into the $50 million hole. Yeah, you know, maybe. I mean, good for that kid though. I mean, I'm glad they found someone in the 7% that could do math and was like question.
SPEAKER_02No, the board is gonna vote next month to move on to the next stage of planning and design work, um, which by the way, the design work alone is gonna cost over $2 million. And I'm sure they're gonna get in this trap of, well, we've invested two million already, so we might as well just spend the other 103 million, right?
SPEAKER_03Classic government story. They spend the money on the planning and the idea phase, and then they're like, well, we already dunk in some money. It's like, well, okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_02It's swampiness at like the most local level possible. So all that to say, keep an eye on this story. Josiah Padley is gonna keep reporting on this at americanexperiment.org.
SPEAKER_03I've also been reliably informed that many of those Minneapolis school board positions are up for election this year. So if you live in Minneapolis, take a look and see who is representing you at the school board and are they financially responsible? Because it seems clearly there are some problem people here.
SPEAKER_02Now we're gonna sit down with our own public safety policy fellow, David Zimmer, who is going to explain to us why the state of Minnesota is now paying four and a half million dollars to a once convicted murderer. Stay with us.
SPEAKER_01American Experiment is supported by thousands of individuals like you. To join the movement, go to www.americanexperiment.org and click the yellow donate button. From all of us here, thank you.
SPEAKER_03I am here with our public safety policy fellow, David Zimmer. Dave, you are a 33-year law enforcement veteran of the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office, and you come to us with a story today that is so crazy. It honestly made my jaw drop when I read it first on AmericanExperiment.org. So thank you for coming here and uh and sharing with us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_03Well, I'll give the high-level summary. Uh, 22 years ago, a flower shop owner was murdered during a robbery in North Minneapolis. Based on evidence and eyewitness accounts, Marvin Haynes was convicted by a grand jury and sentenced to life in prison. Nearly 20 years later, Haynes was legally exonerated of the crime and released from prison. Last week, the state committed to paying him four and a half million dollars for his trouble. But was he even guilty? Dave, you were actually serving in the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office when this happened, is that correct?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, so to make it clear, I did not work on this case, but I was an investigator at the time. I know all of the investigators that worked on this case and uh have kept in touch with people. I also know the prosecutor who prosecuted the case and have talked to him in the recent days. And um this this case is just so frustrating to see uh how Mary Moriarty in particular abdicated her role uh as a prosecutor and led to the process where uh all of this happened, the exoneration and now the payout of $4.5 million.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so let's just start at the beginning with the crime. Tell us a little bit about what happened.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you indicated there's a flower shop called Jerry's Flower Shop in North Minneapolis. Uh it was a longtime family business on the corner on Lyndale Avenue North. And on a Sunday morning, two of the family members, Cynthia and her brother Harry, were working in the shop. And Cynthia reports that a uh young black male who she had seen in the neighborhood in the past, walking on the sidewalk and such, so it wasn't the first time she'd ever seen him, came in the store and asked to buy flowers for his mom's birthday. So she started working with this young man. She didn't know his name. And uh after about five minutes of being in the store, all of a sudden she looked up and the young man was pointing a silver or chrome-plated revolver right in her face and robbing her and her brother. Well, her brother came out from the back to ask what was going on, and at that moment, Cynthia ran out of the front door, and as she was running out, she heard two gunshots. Uh, she ran to a neighbor's house, and as she did so, she saw this young black male running up the or walking up the alley quickly, leaving the area. Police get there. They find her brother, Harry Shearer, dead of a gunshot wound to the chest. Uh, they found two bullets, uh, just like she had heard, and as she had reported. One had struck her brother, one hit the wall, and they recovered it. Um and from that point, the police just started investigating because it was somewhat of a who-dun it at that point. They had a vague description of who this young man was. Um, what they did is they used a canine, uh a bloodhound, to try to track to see if they could pick up the track of this person who left. It the canine led to the back of a residence nearby. They investigated that residence, learned that some uh some young black males did reside there with their mother. But over approximately a day they were able to rule all of those people out as being involved. Part of ruling that out was they did put together a photo lineup with one of those young men that lived in that residence, who was the closest to match the description that she gave of the killer. That she had given. Okay. So they were doing their due diligence, they didn't know who this person was. They put a photo lineup together, showed it to Cynthia, the witness, and I don't believe it was, I wouldn't call this an identification. But what she said is after looking at all six pictures, well, this one looks pretty close, you know, like 75% close to who I what the guy looked like. But I can't be sure. Well, again, uh in my opinion, that that's not an identification.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So within days, they start get the police start getting calls, some anonymous, uh, from the community saying the person who did that flower shop robbery and murder is Marvin Haynes, or Little Marvin, he was known as. He's 16 years old, lived in the North Minneapolis area. So the police started investigating Little Marvin, put together a photo lineup. Um, he had committed crimes in the past, so they had a booking photo of him from a year or two earlier, put a photo lineup together, and now this is two days after the murder, showed it to two or three, showed it to the sister, uh, the witness, and she's going through the photos, and as she gets to Marvin Haynes' photo, she immediately says, Oh my god, that's him with her index finger. Very, very certain, pointing to the photo and very excited. That's him, that's the guy who robbed us. Now, again, this wasn't the first time. She didn't just see this kid one time for a minute. She had seen him in the neighborhood, and so she was somewhat familiar with who he was. Right. That is, in my opinion, and from my experience, showing photo lineups, that's an identification. That's a very dramatic certainty that she knew who she was talking about.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00For a number of reasons, the police and the prosecutor decided, let's uh make absolutely sure. So they had uh Marvin in custody that day as well. He had an outstanding warrant. They had picked him up about the same time they were doing the photo lineup, and they decided, well, hey, the next day let's do an in-person lineup with Cynthia. Um, so they did that, and as they walked people in one at a time, she was saying no, no. Then when Marvin came in, she got excited, and it was described that she sat bolt upright in her chair, viewing him, and said words to the effect, yes, that's that's the man that was or the young man that came in to rob us.
SPEAKER_03And this is only two days after the crime.
SPEAKER_00That's yeah, it's three or maybe four days. The the live lineup was about four days later.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00The um over time uh during that live lineup, she she became very emotional, which is typical, and she was still under trauma um from just losing her brother. And she did say things like, I'm I'm they're just all blending together. I'm so confused, you know, so confused, and that type of thing, but very emotional about the whole incident. But again, when he first walked into the room, it was apparent, oh my god, that's him.
SPEAKER_03Okay, yeah. So so it seems pretty clear um that she had an idea of who this was, especially I think it's important you point out that she'd seen him before. Right. It wasn't only in the heat of the moment where you know you can imagine that eyewitnesses can be um mistaken about things, but if it was someone she'd seen around the neighborhood before, it wasn't the first time ever interacting with him. I feel like that really strengthens the argument, too. Was there any other evidence that this was the man who was guilty?
SPEAKER_00Yes, there was actually a 14-year-old witness who didn't know Marvin and wasn't in trouble, so it wasn't like police had arrested this other potential witness and were putting pressure on him to talk. This 14-year-old actually called the police a day or two after the murder, after hearing that a murder had taken place and told the police what he saw. And so this spans over about a week. The week earlier, he had been in the area and he had run up against what turns out to be Marvin Haynes walking near the flower shop, and Haynes was hassling him for money and hassling him about his clothes he was wearing. So the day of the murder, he ran into him again near the flower shop, and he was concerned. He said, Oh, here's that guy, he's gonna hassle me again. So he avoided him and went to a store, and as he was coming out, he explains to the police, I heard what I thought were gunshots, and I saw this guy, this same guy, run out of the flower shop and go up the alley. He said, I didn't report anything right away, but when I saw that there was a murder and a robbery at the flower shop, I called.
SPEAKER_03So he saw him coming out of the flower shop.
SPEAKER_00Right. Okay. After what he heard were gunshots, what he thought were gunshots. So the police showed that young man the same photo lineup. He wasn't quite as excited as Cynthia was, but he in the same way discounted the first two or three. And when it got came to Marvin, he said, Yeah, that's the guy. That's the guy I saw come out of the shop. That's the guy that was hassling me the week before. Um, no doubt about it. Uh so they showed him the in-person lineup as well, and he again picked him out. Um and then both at trial, both he and Cynthia picked Marvin out in the courtroom as the man that they had dealt with before or seen before, and the man that was in the flower shop at the time of the robbery.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So is that the main evidence then that was presented?
SPEAKER_00That's the primary evidence, however. Uh, the police contacted. I I didn't I I lost count, but it's upwards of eight to ten other people. So friends of Marvin's and cousins of Marvin. They went to Marvin's house and spoke to his four sisters and mom, and this becomes important later. Because Marvin's alibi is he was laying on the couch all day this Sunday uh that the murder happened, sleeping on the couch all day, and said, My mom and sisters can verify that. They never did, they never confirmed for the police that he was there the whole day. They all had different stories. And interestingly enough, you know, he's on trial for his life. They never testified on his behalf to say he was laying on the couch all day. Yeah, there were other cousins involved that are cousins and friends that testified about different facts that Marvin shared with them either before or after the murder, um, that only he would know, only Marvin would know. Or they they people that were making up a story wouldn't make up these details because they were details that actually happened in the murder.
SPEAKER_03Sure. And and don't police always do that? They withhold some details from the public, for example, and that this is what always happens on TV. Uh they withhold some details from the public so that they know, you know, if someone does come forward with some specific details that were correct about the crime, that would tell them, okay, maybe this person does have good information.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. So one of the important details were a number of his friends and cousins told the police that, yeah, that morning he was asking people if they wanted to go along with him or telling people he was about to quote hit a lick, which they all said, hit a lick means he was going to rob somebody. And he was at that time he was known as a kind of a stick-up guy. He was out doing armed robberies. A few of these witnesses described him at that time being in the possession of a chrome revolver. Now that's an odd, it's a somewhat rare gun for a young guy to have. Back then they would have had a semi-automatic pistol of some sort.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so this is a specific gun, uh, and a you know, chrome versus black and all this. It's it's unbelievable to me that they would just come up with this story that happens to match what only Cynthia knows or Marvin knows, you know, what gun he had. So quite a few people put a silver revolver in his hands. And then after the robbery, quite a few people came forward to the police and acknowledged that he said things to them that let them know he was involved in that robbery. You know, I he said I shot an old white man who came out from the back and startled me. Uh, he wouldn't give up the money. Things that kind of matched the facts of the case. Yeah. One person even said he shot twice. That's only that's something only Marvin and Cynthia would know. Um so these were all uh circumstantial things or or testimony that matched facts in the case that again only Cynthia and Marvin would know.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00And then one other thing about the Chrome revolver the pre the police actually located a friend who's who Marvin and the friend had stole the revolver from the friend's dad. Oh so months earlier, um uh this friend Jamar and Marvin had actually Marvin stole the gun from Jamar, and Jamar was carrying the gun that belonged to Jamar's dad. They went to Jamar's dad. He acknowledged that, yeah, he had a Karome revolver that his son had told him Marvin had stolen from him, but then he got complete cold feet and backed away from the story. He never testified to that because he knew his gun was used in a murder.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00So uh it's understandable why they couldn't use that information, but the police had that information, you know, as part of the whole case.
SPEAKER_03Right. Okay. So all of that um then was presented at trial, and he actually went to so this went to a grand jury first, right? And they they said yes, go ahead and charge him, and then it went through all the way up to the Minnesota Supreme Court. Is that right?
SPEAKER_00Right. Um, those are great points. So the police investigated. The county attorney reviewed the police information and said, Yeah, we agree with you. The county attorney brings all the evidence to a citizen grand jury and presents all of the evidence to them. They say, Yeah, we agree. We're we're going to indict Marvin Haynes with first-degree murder. They have all the pretrial hearings where evidence is litigated and the judge agrees the evidence was, including the eyewitness testimony, was obtained properly and gathered properly. They they proceeded with a trial in front of a citizen jury. The jury reviewed all of the evidence, um, reviewed videotape of all of the the testimony. Um, so the when the prior to the testimony, the police sit down and interview the people. Um, and this becomes important later. It's on videotape, so you can watch and determine whether the police were, you know, forcing somebody to tell them something they didn't want to tell them. The jury watched all of that and felt there was no compelling of any statements or anything. These people came forward and weren't being compelled or forced by the police to talk. The jury convicted him of first-degree murder.
SPEAKER_03Life in prison, right?
SPEAKER_00Life in prison.
SPEAKER_03You would think any jury would take that quite seriously, too.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Oh, definitely. As you mentioned, the Minnesota Court of Appeals reviewed the evidence and the any arguments being made by his defense attorney as to why the conviction should be overturned. They affirmed the conviction. The Supreme Court did the same thing, affirmed the conviction. And it's interesting to note at that point, we're in about 2007 at that point. Marvin never made, Marvin and his attorneys never made the argument that the eyewitness testimony was faulty or obtained in an improper way. However, 20 years later, they did make that claim, and that's how they were successful in uh overturning his conviction.
SPEAKER_03Well, in fact, he didn't say anything for 15 plus years, right? He never had any complaints or or filed any additional appeals for 15 plus years until Haynes filed a petition for post-conviction relief, despite being over 15 years past the cutoff to legally do so. Because I think usually you have two years, is it right?
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_03Um, to do that. And he did that with the help of a group, the Innocence Project, is that correct?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the group. Great Northern Innocence Project.
SPEAKER_03And Mary Moriarty, who we know well on this podcast, agreed to waive the statutory time bar and the procedural bar on Haynes' petition so that he could do this 15 years later with the help of this nonprofit.
SPEAKER_00Right. There it it should have never taken place because the county attorney should have successfully argued that the time for you know for him to have made these arguments was 15 years ago. The time expired. And um there's a reason why you can't just perpetually keep litigating a case. You know, a case we have to have an end point at some time. And he did have two different courts review the conviction and affirm it. Um and so at that point your appeals are done.
SPEAKER_03And for one, I mean, some of these people are dead now, right? I mean, the the key witness, the sister, is not alive to stand up for her brother, right?
SPEAKER_00Right, unfortunately, no. And had she been alive, she could have testified at this post-conviction hearing if Mary Moriarty would have called her, and she probably wouldn't have. But uh, yeah, she was not available, and that's an argument I've made is it's so improper to take this 20-year-old case where victims and witnesses and all of the police investigators are long retired, the prosecutors long gone, and so there's nobody really standing in the way. And that's why we need our prosecutor to maintain the role of a prosecutor and not uh not slide over to the side of the defense and leave that balance of justice uh vacant.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you called it in your post the adversarial justice system that we have in America. I'd never really heard it, I don't think I'd heard that term until you used it. And I thought it was so interesting because that is what makes our system great is you have someone defending the people, um, you have someone defending the state and and the rest of the community, and then you have someone defending the criminal. But what we have here is Mary Moriarty, as the prosecutor, has decided to single-handedly undercut the whole system, the jury of peers, the Supreme Court, and decided that she alone would go in and decide that he was innocent. So, one of my other questions is is that common for a prosecutor to do?
SPEAKER_00No, it's just it's a new phenomenon and it's really troubling. I don't think anybody ever envisioned it happening as our system was developed. Nobody ever anticipated that somebody with a you know public defender mindset would realize, oh, hey, if I ran for county attorney, I could subvert the system. Yeah. I don't think we ever really thought of it, but uh progressives have, or these alter progressives have, and they've figured out our our public prosecutors have a great deal of authority and a great deal of uh discretion. And if the wrong person gets in those positions, justice really takes a hit because they can just play the role of the defense attorney.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and it leaves again, it leaves that other side of the argument vacant.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so what happens is she holds this. Um, I don't even know, it wasn't a trial, right? Because no one was really defending the state in this case, but she holds a hearing where um people from the Innocence Project can go in and defend Marvin, right, and give their side of the story. And they basically say that eyewitness accounts are never reliable. Is that right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so they had an expert eyewitness uh an expert in eyewitness testimony come in and testify. And that she's a professor uh at a local college here. She testified for about two-thirds of a day that I can see out of a two-day trial, and really just undermined the validity of any eyewitness testimony, which is problematic because uh these types of cases um they run up against what the perception that the public has of you know watching CSI and TV and real life isn't that way. Real life is based on circumstances and eyewitness testimony. You don't have a videotape of every crime, and you don't have DNA, and you know, in this case, Marvin used a handgun to or a uh revolver, which does not leave a casing on the ground. Um, so you didn't have that piece of evidence. What you had is circumstances that um are just as good, in my opinion. So, yes, he used a revolver, it didn't leave a casing, so there's no casing there. Some witness who theoretically, if they're making up the story, they wouldn't know what kind of gun he was using. But they're telling us he used a revolver. Well, that matches up with the the evidence. So that circumstantial evidence is just as powerful, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_03And yeah, I think there is kind of a myth about circumstantial evidence that it isn't not as uh legitimate or as as good as sometimes the other uh other types of evidence, but that's not really the case. Circumstantial evidence is extremely powerful and just as legitimate in a court.
SPEAKER_04Right, right.
SPEAKER_03Um there's another person who's been outspoken on this issue, and you mentioned to him earlier, it's the original prosecutor in Haynes' murder murder trial, Mike Fernstall. He mentioned in a letter that you published on AmericanExperiment.com that he sort of um expected that maybe someone would ask him to come to this hearing, to come to this trial. And because he was the original prosecutor, maybe they'd want to hear from him. Why did you think it was that he was the murderer? Well, not only did no one uh ask him to come, but I believe they said, maybe I didn't put this in my notes, but I believe they said, no, we're not looking for anyone to argue on that position. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_00I I wasn't part of the conversation, but yeah, that's what he's related. He offered to come and, you know, he knew that case better than anyone. And you would think that Mary Moriarty and the Hanovin County Attorney's Office would want one of their former attorneys that's available and willing to come testify. You would think if they were truly interested in justice, they would want to hear from that person.
SPEAKER_03And he notes that a media station did reach out to him and want to hear from him, but however, Mary Moriarty was not interested.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03Um, what is his take on this whole thing?
SPEAKER_00Well, he is absolutely disgusted by the fact that Haynes, number one, uh his conviction was exonerated. And then to hear this week that he's being rewarded with $4.5 million, it's just it's just over the top. It's hard for many of us to to swallow.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so here's what happened. As you mentioned this week, as part of the end of the legislative session, they have something called a claims bill, which another thing I wasn't really familiar with, but they have this claims bill that goes through at the end of the session, and it's things that um the state is paying out like this, this sort of restitution. And the legislature awarded four and a half million dollars to Marvin Haynes in this claims bill signed by Governor Walls just last week. Um that means that we, the taxpayers, of course, are the ones paying $4.5 million to this man who, in my opinion, clearly seems to have murdered someone. This is the largest amount of money that has ever been awarded under this statute. And it wasn't even part of an official legal settlement, right?
SPEAKER_00As I understand it, uh the the litigants can they file this petition uh to get funds from this act each year. And so when his conviction was overturned, he started the paperwork, filed this tort claim against the state, and then late in the process of the legislative season session, one of the DFL legislators put forward a bill to, I guess they all have to have a bill attached to them, and put forward a bill to uh to compensate Marvin Haynes four and a half million dollars for his 20-year imprisonment.
SPEAKER_03Something they did not have to do.
SPEAKER_00No, they certainly didn't have to do it, I don't think. Uh, but that that's the process uh that that's used. And unfortunately, the entire legislature, it gets uh I think it gets voted on in kind of an omnibus style where people aren't really sure exactly what they're voting on.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, arguably illegal didn't the Supreme Court say recently that they're not supposed to have those omnibus style bills anymore. I don't know, maybe we should circle back on that. But he also still has a civil case against the state pending. So there's actually a chance that even more of our money is going to go towards this man. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_00Um as I understand it, he has a civil suit against the city of Minneapolis and the police department. Um so, and that's ongoing.
SPEAKER_03So, and you've documented on AmericanExperiment.org for a long time. This isn't like a one-off thing that we've seen from Mary Moriarty. She has a long record of prioritizing criminals over members of the community. Do you agree with that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've been writing probably more than anyone in the state about the number of instances where she has handpicked cases, uh, you know, troubling in a way that she handpicks cases that are decades old, where again, victims, witnesses, police officers, prosecutors, they're no longer around. So there's nobody to object. And then she joins the process to vacate those convictions. Um so there's been there's been a handful of them uh that I've documented in detail, and you can find them on our website.
SPEAKER_03Well, thank you, David. I appreciate you telling this story to our listeners. At americanExperiment.org, you can find even more about this. I like I said, I think my jaw was honestly on the floor when I read this for the first time, and I have not seen it anywhere else. In fact, I've seen it incorrectly reported on or talked about on other places like X. So go to AmericanExperiment.org. Get the real story from David Zimmer. David, thank you so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much to everyone who made it all the way to the end of this week's episode of the American Experiment Podcast.
SPEAKER_03Uh, drop a comment in our YouTube video and let us know how did you honor Memorial Day weekend? What did you do? I saw some really inspirational stories on X. There was a gold star wife who asked, Is anyone going out to Arlington Cemetery this weekend? We weren't able to make it back. If so, send me a picture. And she received on X dozens and dozens of photos. In fact, Tulsi Gabbard went and left a challenge coin on top of the grave of that woman's husband. So it's really beautiful. If you haven't seen that, look for it on X. It is such a good story. And I'd love to hear all of your stories. How did you honor our American soldiers that we have lost on this weekend?
SPEAKER_02Uh, also worth noting, Catherine and I are speaking tonight at the SD45 Cheers and Chat Monthly Social. If you are interested in having us come and speak at your group's event, get in touch with us at AmericaneExperiment.org. And as always, stay sane, stay safe out there, you guys. We will see you next week.
