First Trust ROI Podcast
On the ROI podcast, we discuss some of the most important questions facing investment professionals today, ranging from macroeconomic views, to perspectives on the equity and fixed income markets, to insights on practice management. We aim to cut through the noise, examine the data, and provide fresh insights to investment professionals as they help their clients find better ways to invest…seeking to generate attractive returns on their investments.
First Trust ROI Podcast
ROI Podcast | Episode 24 | What’s Behind the Growth in Buffered ETFs? | Jeff Chang | July 1, 2024
Jeff Chang, President and Co-founder of Vest Financial, discusses the growth of buffered investments over the past few years.
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Hi, welcome to this episode of the First Trust ROI podcast. I'm Ryan Issakainen, ETF strategist at First Trust. For today's episode, I'm joined by Jeff Chang, president and co-founder of Vest Financial. For today's episode, I'm joined by Jeff Chang, president and co-founder of Vest Financial. Jeff and I are going to discuss buffer strategies which seek to buffer some level of downside performance for a reference asset in exchange for some level of cap on the upside. We'll unpack what that means a bit more in this episode of the First Trust ROI podcast. So, Jeff, we are here in Rochester, New York. Thanks for coming out. I know you're not here specifically just for the podcast. You're actually speaking at a CFA Society event here in Rochester. You actually, apart from being a CFA charterholder, didn't you do some sort of instructional course for CFAs?
Jeff:Yeah, that's right. I used to teach level one and level two for Kaplan Schweizer for over almost 15 years. I actually started back in the late 2000s teaching level one, level two. I actually just started teaching financial statement analysis and fixed income and then expanded from there to all of the curriculum of level one, level two.
Ryan:So I mean, for people that haven't participated in the CFA curriculum program, that's a pretty wide-ranging set of information and curriculum. I mean that's pretty next level when you actually teach that stuff.
Jeff:Yeah, I think level two is. Folks that have taken it probably know how hard level two is. I think level two is definitely a mile deep in content and I'm sure a lot of people after they pass level two are glad that they don't have to look at financial statement analysis after level two, are glad that they don't have to look at financial statement analysis after level two.
Ryan:So and you started. You're the president of Vest Financial, and when did Vest start?
Jeff:I co-founded the company with Kran Sud back in 2012. Okay, so over 10 years now 12 years now, yeah, yeah, 12 years, 12 years.
Ryan:Longer than some people may have thought. Your relationship with First Trust started what? Five years ago?
Jeff:Yeah, we actually first worked with First Strike back in 2017. We first signed our first UIT deal in 2017. And then we became an affiliate of First Trust in 2019. So five years ago.
Ryan:So Vest has been instrumental in the development of what's known as buffered strategies. And we look at the ETF industry. Buffered ETFs have now grown to somewhere around $45 billion in assets. I think about a third of that has come in in the last 12 months, and so you know that's what we wanted to talk mainly about today. I want to kind of explore where these strategies came from and sort of why they have grown so popular recently. So I guess, to start off, maybe we can set our terms when we're talking about buffered strategies, what exactly do we mean? What is a buffered strategy?
Jeff:Buffered strategy, which we've seen even today in perhaps annuities or structured notes. They provide buffer to the downside to a reference asset. So over a specific period of time. As an example, a reference asset such as, let's say, the S&P, where the buffer downside is the first 10% or 15%. Meaning if S&P is down, let's say 10%, you would seek to be down zero. Or if you're down 11%, you'd seek to be down 1% for, let's say, before fees and expenses. Now, as a trade-off for that, then you get upside participation up to a predetermined cap for, let's say, over a one-year period. So, as an example, let's say the cap was 20%, then if S&P or the reference assets is up 21, you would be up 20%. So that's what you're really trading off for that buffer downside is having that capped upside.
Ryan:Okay, so let's talk about how that's actually achieved. You're using a set of options and we're going to go into the weeds just a little bit, just because I want to define what those options are, so people kind of you know can be clear about what these strategies are delivering. So in just normal buffered strategy or typical buffered strategy maybe, there's four different. There's a package of four different options. Can you tell us what those are?
Jeff:Yeah, and a lot of these buffer strategies. There's several different ways you can construct them. We've kind of distilled it down to four options that can actually achieve this buffer strategy. Four options that can actually achieve a buffer strategy, in our case of utilizing a four option structure. The four options actually just do three different things.
Jeff:One option will obtain the exposure to the reference asset through buying what's called a call option. A call option gives you the upside of the stock and if you buy it as very close to zero, you get to almost experience the underlying asset without actually having to buy it. So the first position gets you the exposure. The next two give you the buffer. So a put option pays you if, um, uh, if the reference asset goes down past, um, its strike price. So, uh, we buy a put option, let's say at a hundred percent, um, to start the protection, and let's say it's a 10% buffer.
Jeff:Then we would sell a put option at 90%. So one put that you buy starts the protection. The put that you sell ends the protection. This is what creates the buffer. And then, in order to pay for the buffer, we will cap the upside by selling a cover call. We'll sell a call option. This is selling the upside. Now, in exchange for that call, we will get a premium. Now we will solve for the call where the strike price would actually pay for the buffer, and so this is why, at each reset date, the strategy will actually have a new cap, because we're always, let's say, solving for the call that pays for the downside buffer.
Ryan:Okay day. What you're trying to achieve with this package of four options, then, is, at the point that those options mature, you're getting, essentially, the performance of the reference asset up to that cap that you discussed, and you've also got downside buffer for a certain percentage, and that depends on where those puts are the first one that you said you're long to put or you buy the put and then you sell a put out of the money, and that determines what the downside buffer is. Do I have that right?
Jeff:That's right, that's right. So in each of the strategies you're really looking at trading that upside cap for that downside buffer. So when you're looking at it you're getting that upside all the way the price return all the way up to the upside cap.
Ryan:Okay, and so you mentioned that you're solving for that upside cap. So that's a variable in the four package of options. If you've got a specific, say 10% or 15% downside buffer, that's locked in and, depending on market conditions, you figure out what your upside cap is going to be. What are some of the factors that determine pricing, which you know sets that level? What determines that?
Jeff:That's a great question. So primarily are driven by several things. Number one is volatility, and when I say volatility, I specifically mean implied volatility. So implied volatility is the volatility implied in options. Meaning how, in a very simplistic standpoint, how expensive or cheap options are, because higher the implied volatility, that means that the market is thinking that the underlying or reference asset will move. So higher implied vol will tend to bring in a buffer strategy, a higher cap. The reason why is in the strategy itself. When you buy a put and sell a put, if implied volatility goes up, it affects both options. You're basically long and short. However, you'll notice that the cover call at the top is alone by itself, because the call that's getting the exposure is really not affected by volatility. So, as implied volatility goes up, the call will generate more premium and if it is able to generate more premium, we could sell it at a higher strike. So the general idea is as implied volatility goes up, we can sell the call at a higher strike price and thereby creates the potential for a higher cap. So that's the first one. The second one is interest rates. Now, interest rates impact the strategy significantly, but they don't move as frequently as implied vol. So while interest rates as they change, they can affect the strategy, but because it doesn't change frequently you may not see the constant impact that it may perhaps have to these types of strategies. But how interest rates affect is I'm going into the CFA curriculum here is as rates go up, call premiums go up.
Jeff:The reason why is a call option gives you exposure to the stock, gives you all the upside, but you didn't buy it. So as an example, I get an upside of the stock for a stock that cost me $100. I can buy the stock by $100 and I get all the upside of the stock. Or I can buy, let's say, a call option at two and I also get all the upside. So you notice there's an inherent kind of leverage inside there. So as rates go up, that leverage cost goes up, so the call premium actually increases. The opposite is true with puts the put premium goes down as interest rates go up. So as rates go up, you'll notice the call is going to generate more premium so I can sell it at a higher strike. So higher rates, higher volatility, typically corresponds to a higher cap in a lot of buffer strategies and you'll also notice that it's the opposite of everything, most other things in finance. Everything else hates what Higher volatility, higher interest rates. For us option traders we're twisted like that. We like things that everybody else doesn't like.
Jeff:And then the last thing is implied dividend of the underlying and buffer strategies. Many times the movement is actually the price return and actually determining. But it not necessarily means that you lose the let's say, lose the economics of the dividend. Because by getting the exposure in a call, you're actually the call will be discounted by the implied dividend. So meaning, let's say I have a stock that has a $2 dividend, I could pay $100 for the stock. If I buy it as, let's say, a zero strike call, it probably will be discounted by the $2, by the implied dividend. So I'll pay $98 for $100 worth of exposure. So that means I'm paying 98,. I got $100 worth of exposure. I have $2 to basically go out and, you know, put on the trade and buy options. Now obviously, if the dividend, implied dividend, goes to three, now I have $3 to go out and buy security, so that can provide a higher cap.
Jeff:But notice, the economics of the dividend is not just, you know, a third party is not just taking it from, let's say, the strategy. It's getting put back into the strategy Exactly Now. There's several benefits of doing it this way, because a lot of people ask hey, why, potentially, do you do it this way? So two things. Number one is by obtaining, let's say, if I'm going to buy an ETF or I buy a call on an ETF, by pointing it as a reference asset, I'm not theoretically owning it and thereby acquiring something like the expense ratio, right. The other component is that by having the dividend, typically, the dividend will get kicked out, taxed and reinvested right. By having it this way, you're almost getting the implied dividend as like a zero coupon bond, where it's not going to get distributed out, taxed and then reinvested. It essentially can have a potential for more tax efficiency because it's actually just baked into the structure through the call premium itself.
Ryan:Okay, so you said three things there. You talked about implied volatility, you talked about interest rates, you talked about implied dividends and in any of those cases when you've got higher call premiums, that allows you, in this buffered strategy, to actually have a higher cap. Is that right? Just to sort of summarize some of those things that you eloquently broke down for us. So there are different types of options that can be used in any sort of strategy like this. So, jeff, why is it that you use flex options as opposed to different types of options like leaps?
Jeff:Yeah, the interesting thing is that flex options actually were created back in the 90s.
Jeff:It has all of the benefits as far as exchange centrally cleared options, but allows you to customize the strike kind of maturity as well as even exercise type for each of the specific options that you trade. This really allows you to be able to structure the trade to mature on a specific day and also, let's say, european versus American style option. You can choose European where the counterparty can't exercise against you because you have a one-year structure. You don't want to go a month in and one of the options are in the money and you get assigned on it. So it provides for that level of flexibility hence why it's called Flex Options is to have specific days. So if you want to trade on a specific day and actually have the strike, so all your puts and your calls can line up, whereas leaps are standardized, right, um, if you don't see it there, I mean uh, it's, it's a more of a standardized option. You may not get the day or even, uh, the actual uh day that you want of your maturity for your kind of product that you're building.
Ryan:So customization sounds like it's it's really important with these strategies. That's right. That's right. There's a lot of different financial professionals that have utilized this sort of strategy over time and you and I talk to financial professionals all the time and they've got different ways that they think about these things. Is there a right and a wrong way to use these? Are there maybe a spectrum of use cases? What's the most common way that you see these sorts of strategies used for investors?
Jeff:Yeah, I could tell you where we see a lot of our clients and how they think about and how they're using it. One of the challenges that we see today, especially in an inflationary environment, is, as interest rates go up, stocks and bonds are both going down. Unless you were managing money in the 80s, you really didn't experience managing money during higher levels of inflation. So now we're starting to see a lot more advisors or investors looking at hey, what are other ways to diversify our risk management? Right, because if our stocks and bonds are going down, you know how else can I find some level of a hedge? Right? The great thing about buying an option on a reference asset is that option is perfectly negatively correlated if you, let's say, buy a put, so if I buy S&P, I buy an S&P put, that put is going to pay me one for one at expiration after it goes past its strike. That you know guaranteed by the clearing of the exchange that allows for you know, kind of diversify your hedge or diversify your risk management through hedging. And you always ask I think the question has always been like, why hasn't investors and financial advisors hedged before? Right, and I think Cerulli did a study several years ago and they found that one of the biggest challenges of utilizing hedging and options was compliance and scalability. Right, the compliance burden with trading options as well as the scalability of trading options, because you buy a stock or an ETF you could falsely for 30 years it'll continue to sit there. You buy an option 30 days from now, 60 days from now, a year from now. You have to keep trading it right.
Jeff:So a lot of these buffer strategies, like I said, has solved for that, to allow for kind of the diversifying of risk management. So we see folks pulling potentially saying that, hey, you know what, instead of just mixing my stocks and bonds, maybe I just put a hedge in to kind of control, to risk mitigate in that way. The second thing that we've seen is, as we see the market go, you know, hitting all time highs, you see the concentration of the market. People are starting to protect or thinking about hedging their gains and providing a buffer downside to those gains that they made last year, first half of this year, because the idea is they're reducing the equity beta in their equity portfolio. So, pulling straight, let's say here's my equity portfolio. We've done well. I don't know if we're going to go further. I don't know if we're going to have a pullback by having a buffer strategy. They don't have to worry as much.
Ryan:Now that's kind of interesting because I think one of the tools that has been used pretty frequently, especially over the last decade, has been funds that are related to the low volatility factor, where you load up your exposure to companies that have had less price volatility and oftentimes that comes with certain sector biases. But even if you control for sector biases, there's just a certain type of company and what we found is sometimes that doesn't actually give you low volatility at the time when you need it to, and sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But I think that's a really interesting use case for this type of strategy because it's going to be typically much more correlated with your reference asset, even though it may have less beta, less volatility. Your correlation is going to be there in a way that maybe it wouldn't with one of these factor loaded funds.
Jeff:You make a good point that even during COVID a lot of the low vol strategies really struggled, because you typically end up in sectors that may not be kind of growthy technology and then we know during COVID those were kind of the equities that did really really well. And this kind of looks at volatility is not constant. Just because something has low vol today doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be low vol tomorrow. Right, that was how a lot of investors tried to kind of reduce the beta of the portfolio and in some cases came back and bid them.
Ryan:Yeah, and the other thing that you just mentioned about diversifying the risk management strategies. I think that's also a really interesting use case. That 2022, I think was the perfect example of where we had rates going up, so your bond prices were headed lower. As a result of the connection with that, you also had your equity prices in many cases moving lower and in that environment, you know, I think a lot of people that were utilizing some of those buffered strategies probably ended up pretty happy with that decision.
Jeff:Because in 2022, every combination of kind of stocks and bonds if you looked at kind of traditional 60-40, you could have mixed it any way. You were down, right, right. And in this case, you're looking at an opportunity in which you're just providing buffered downside yeah, right, right. And in this case, you're looking at an opportunity in which you're just providing buffer downside yeah, right. And what's actually even more interesting, if you look at some of these buffer strategies right, they did not participate in all of the drawdowns in 2022 because they had the buffer downside, but they also participated in a large chunk of the gains in 2023.
Jeff:And, depending on which buffer strategies, you saw some buffer strategies outperform the market by double digits. Right, and it was actually not because of stock picking or anything. It was actually because of what Winning without losing? Right, playing offense and defense at the same time. And that's what buffer strategies can really help, especially in this environment where you're not sure whether or not the market's going to go down or up or even further. This allows you to not have to kind of play both sides, playing that offense and defense at the same time.
Ryan:So is there an optimal level of buffer that we should be thinking about? Why not buffer 50% or 75%? If you're really bearish, why not buffer the whole thing? Or maybe you do. What's the trade-off between your level of buffer and is there an optimal level of buffer that investors should be thinking about?
Jeff:Yeah, I don't think there's a right or wrong level. I think it matches to what the investor is looking to accomplish and their risk tolerance and time horizon. And this is why we offer a vast spectrum of buffer strategies Anything you know. You have buffer strategies that you know. As you know, 10% downside buffer to a max buffer of 100%, so there's a mass array of where they can choose from. I think a lot of it has to do with what the amount they want to allocate is one function. So, as an example, if I were to put in a bigger buffer, let's say a 25 buffer, the amount that I would have to allocate to the portfolio to reduce the risk could potentially be less In order to have more. The 10% buffer would probably have a larger allocation. But now there's a tradeoff to that function. Secondly, is that larger, the bigger the buffer downside, the lower the cap. So you're getting less return, which makes sense, right? It's a risk return trade-off. The less risk you're taking, the less you have an expected return, and so that is kind of the trade-off of where you're looking at. Hey, how much am I? Which one do I choose from, right? Uh, fortunately enough, like I said, there's a vast spectrum giving. Um, given that, what your risk tolerance time horizon is, you can choose.
Jeff:Uh, and I think one function I would say like for folks to think about is if you look at like target date funds, as investors got older, think about what happened in the last couple of years, as, in target date funds, as the investor got older, they moved from what Stocks to bonds as age goes through. Right, as they get older, that's right. What happened to them in the last couple of years? Think about if you were moving from your stocks to bonds, especially in 2022, it was almost out of the frying pan into the fire. Right, you were trying to reduce the risk. All you're doing is actually just changing from equity beta to duration in an environment with potentially, you know, rates going up. Now, that's one way to think about it. The other way to think about it is is, as you age, instead of moving you to bonds, I can actually just increase your buffer, increase your downside, and this has the potential to allow investors to potentially stay into equities longer as they age or as they come close to retirement or at retirement.
Ryan:Yeah, that's another really interesting use case, and I think your point about target date funds is something that a lot of investors probably experienced in 2022. That was unexpected, you know. Another question that I hear sometimes is related to something you said earlier about the way that options are cleared and the counterparty risk or lack thereof. Can you talk a little bit more about that, because I think that's something that people wonder about. Is there counterparty risk with these underlying options? Can you talk about that a bit?
Jeff:Yeah, so every single exchange traded options or flex options, clears through the OCC, the Option Clearing Corp. Now, as you know, to be a clearing member, everybody has to post collateral right and essentially it goes into a pool. And so if any clearing member were to, let's say, default, then obviously there's this collateral pool that can be used to cover. This is exactly what happened, let's say, during the Lehman collapse, but outside of that, so it's AAA-rated entity and if you look at who are all the clearing members, are all the major banks, right, um, and if a clearing member default out of that collateral pool, everybody has to put, pull money back into it. This is also the reason why, um, there's a capital requirement for for each one of the members Right Um, and also designated as a systematically important financial institution, um, and also designated as a systematically important financial institution here in the United States. So having the clearing of the exchange fail, that would be a pretty big deal, yeah.
Ryan:You know, another thing that we talked briefly about a few minutes ago was maybe the most optimal time to use these sorts of strategies. When should investors be thinking about it? You mentioned, as you're headed towards retirement, maybe adjusting your level of buffer and considering that as a part of a portfolio allocation. I get the sense when I think about. I watch flows into different financial products and when they become more attractive and when investors are drawn to them, and a lot of these strategies really took off in 2020, when everyone was really risk averse. I think there was a lot of people that were drawn to them in 2022. And it seems like there's been. These become more front of mind when there's risk aversion in the market. Is that when investors really should be thinking of them, or is there a better time? Or maybe is there a specific period of time or type of environment that investors should really be thinking about buffer strategies?
Jeff:Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, like you said, we saw an extreme amount of inflows during the 2020 timeframe or when the market tanks At any point in time we see investors really flock to these types buffer strategies is actually when markets are at all-time highs, because the idea is that's when you actually have the downside buffer to actually help you. Right, like? I think the great analogy is you don't buy flood insurance after the flood and you definitely don't buy life insurance after you die, right? And when is the best time? It's not when the market's at its bottom.
Jeff:Right, I can honestly say that the worst time to buy a buffer strategy is when the market is at its bottom, because when it rallies back up, you have that upside cap. But when do you really have that downside? It's when you actually start to creep up at all-time highs, because why, whenever the market gaps down, you have that downside buffer, but you don't know it's really hard to time that top. That's why having that growth opportunity up to that cap can also give you a good tradeoff. Long story short, that's why we think, during this creep up of the market, this is a really good time to think about buffer strategies, because protecting those gains that we saw last year in the first half of this year.
Ryan:Yeah, so we're recording this episode towards the end of June and the market has been surprisingly resilient. The equity market has really for the last 18 months, I think. Do you have an opinion about? I'm going to ask you to put on your sort of macro hat for a second Do you have an opinion about where the economy is going or where the markets are headed from here?
Jeff:I think a lot of it is kind of if X happens, y happens. You have to look at the probability of every event occurring. I do think that we could see well, we'll see a recession in the next 12 to 18 months. The question is, what is that catalyst to be? I think, if you look at geopolitical issues, we can start to see inflation continue to stay elevated, but also potentially creep up. Continue to stay elevated but also potentially creep up, especially with anything happening with oil prices and so on and so forth.
Jeff:Sure, certainly potential for that, yeah, in the Middle East, if the Middle East conflict starts to expand more, we could see higher levels of just gas prices and so on and so forth. That could impact inflation. Now that then trickles through right, which leads to higher interest rates, which you know makes a soft landing a lot more difficult to achieve. Yeah, now those are all caveated with specific events occurring, but I do think, given the kind of the hangover of all of the easy money that we've seen during COVID pushed forward now kind of can impact, I'd say, in the next 12 to 18 months.
Jeff:I think you know what's actually interesting is look at the prices of Rolexes. Okay, they've dropped 40%. Is that right? If you look, bring up that chart, if you're able to bring up that chart in this podcast, look at that. That basically. And if you've seen Brian Westbury talk about the stimmy boats, that literally is the version of the stimmy boats. That Rolexes have fallen like 40%, that people had all this money during COVID and all stimulus came through and now it just came crashing down.
Ryan:Interesting all stimulus came through and now it just came crashing down Interesting. Okay, so you're a little bit. You look forward and you say within the next 12 to 18 months there could be a recession. That would obviously have an impact on markets as a whole. What about globally? Do you have any? You know, you and I at separate times, we're both in Europe within the last couple of months and it's really been interesting to see some of the slowness of the economy outside the US relative to the US, and I just wonder when you're going to start to see some economic growth happening in places like Europe. Do you have a view on sort of globally?
Jeff:Yeah, I mean, when you look at economic growth you have a kind of function of population growth. But then one of the big factors which is really hard to predict, by the way, is total factor productivity. Now we saw a massive growth in total factor productivity during the tech bubble right or in the tech boom, the dot-com boom, and then the cell phone kind of the iPhone kind of launched that more. I think we're at that same level of beginning of the hockey stick with AI as that spreads globally. How it impacts total factor productivity I think is a question mark.
Jeff:It was very difficult to project how much the internet really changed the overall economy. How much does the cell phone change the economy? How is AI going to change the economy? That all factors into GDP growth, but that total factor productivity no economist if they say they know how to project that is very difficult because you'd have to know every single aspect, because it takes a turn every way as far as hey, no one ever thought the internet could do this part. No one ever thought the cell phone could do this.
Jeff:The possibilities are endless for AI. Now what's interesting is that it can increase total factor productivity. But the question becomes is how does that affect unemployment as well is how does that affect unemployment as well, which you could have a portion where the AI is really helping, but it's also people need to be retrained right and that we could start to see like different aspects of that. So, like I said, when we're in Europe, how much are different parts of the world going to catch up to taking on, let's say, those parts of increases in technology which really can lift overall global GDP?
Ryan:Yeah, it's interesting. And tying it back to the thinking about buffered strategies and how they're used, I'm a big fan of certain types of thematic investments that try to take advantage of things like artificial intelligence and some of the new innovations in technology that are going to have an impact that's really difficult to measure and you think about. You know, how do you invest in some of those higher growth areas? Well, the problem is, when we think about the proper allocation of risk in an investor's portfolio, you can end up if you end up chasing those things, having way too much risk, and one of the ways that I think of buffered strategies as being useful is to sort of offset that risk with a lower risk, lower beta allocation for a portion of an investor's portfolio to really try to stay within a reasonable risk budget, and I think that's another interesting way to kind of think about using these buffered strategies.
Jeff:Yeah, and just, we're thinking the same way and in some cases, if you think about a market cap index, market weighted index, cap weighted index that as a certain sector gets bigger and bigger, it becomes a larger portion of the overall kind of allocation and index. This is also the reason we've introduced strategies that are equal weight now, because of exactly what you're saying is that sometimes you're just over, perhaps, into one sector. Sure, yeah, so one of our newest strategies in the buffer space is equal weight Interesting.
Ryan:All right, jeff. Well, we've talked a lot about buffered strategies. We've talked about sort of macro. You spend a lot of time on the road, like I do, and I'm a big fan of listening to audio books as I go. I'm a big podcast fan as well. Is there anything in particular that you have either listened to or maybe read? Maybe a traditional paper? I like reading books with paper, sometimes, too. What's on the Jeff Chang reading list these days?
Jeff:That's a good question Right now. I've been working on the Elon Musk book.
Ryan:Ah, the one, the biography, Walter Isaacson. Yeah, that's right. Oh, it's fantastic.
Jeff:Yeah, so that's the current one that I'm working on. Right now. My brother works at Tesla, and that's why I kind of picked that up.
Ryan:Yeah, interesting. Yeah, if Elon Musk has his way, we're going to end up as an interplanetary species, is my takeaway from that book. Well, jeff, once again thank you for coming on the podcast. This is always an interesting conversation. We got to dig into the weeds a little bit with these Buffer strategies, but I think that's helpful because we want to make sure that investors really get an understanding of what we're trying to achieve when we're talking about some of these Buffer strategies. So, thank you, thanks for all your work on behalf of sub-advising funds for First Trust and all the helpful tools you provide to financial professionals. Thank you for the partnership. Absolutely Thanks, jeff, thanks Ryan, and thanks to all of you for joining us here on this episode of the First Trust ROI Podcast. We'll see you next time.
