Diary of a Working Woman
Passionate, hard-working, fearless Educationalist, Psychologist and mother, Johnette Barrett talks to a selection of working women who have gone through many challenging experiences, often having to undergo many conflicting roles. Johnette unravels the secrets of being a successful woman in today’s world.
Diary of a Working Woman
The Signs We Ignore: How To Spot Serious Mental Illness with Dr Aneesa Peer
A new podcast in which Johnette Barrett, educational psychologist, seeks out inspirational working women who have transformed their lives and that of others through their courageousness and compassion.
The conversations that follow are sometimes eye-opening, sometimes heart- breaking and sometimes humourous.
Diary of a Working Woman (DOAWW) is hosted by Buzzsprouts .com.
Email: diaryofaworkingwoman@yahoo.com
Instagram: doaww podcast
Website: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2227789
Welcome to the Diary of a Working Woman podcast. I'm Jonette, your host On this podcast. I'll be speaking to women from all walks of life, of different ages, and the thing that they'll have in common is that they will work in some way or another. Their stories will be motivating, inspiring, empowering. I just know you're going to enjoy it. Please follow me on Diary of a Working Woman to receive all the latest episodes. Tune in.
Speaker 2:Today we're talking about a very important topic, that of mental health and mental health disorders. You may be aware from all the media coverage that there's been a sharp increase in the number of diagnosis for conditions such as anxiety and depression, particularly since the COVID-19 pandemic In 2020-23,. There's research that suggests that as much as over 20% of children from the age of 8 to 16 years old are likely to have a mental health disorder in the adult population globally. So I'm absolutely delighted today to have a psychiatrist on the At Do it podcast who's going to talk to us about her work as a psychiatrist and she is here, and it's dr anisa. Hi, dr anisa hi, johnny hi.
Speaker 2:So dr anisa pierre is a consultant psychiatrist based at the south london and wardsley nhs trust, where she's worked for just under 20 years. So she specializes in anxiety, depressionosis, and she's also a trauma specialist. Now, as part of her casework, she works as a systemic counsellor, supporting couples and families who are working through mental health problems. As well as all of that, dr Anissa is the mother of three lovely children, so welcome. Thank you, juliette. It's lovely to have you on. Congratulations on your journey, and you're very experienced. I'm interested in why you decided to specialise in psychiatry and what your motivations were. Gosh.
Speaker 1:I haven't been asked that question in a very long time and haven't had to think about that, but I guess my interest in psychiatry started during my training. You know seeing, you know having to assess people with mental illness in patient units in South Africa, which is where I'm trained. It was very interesting, you know I got to see the interface with mental illness and systemic. You know challenges that people face and how that you know their development, their growth, and then you know the interface as they entered working life. And you know mental illness is something that originates or starts very early on often in people's lives, and so I think that sort of developmental aspect really intrigued me during my training and so, you know, and it became one of the sort of more interesting aspects of medicine that I sort of always, you know, found myself gravitating towards through my training and then when I came to the UK, I specialised in psychiatry at the Maudsley and so, yeah, I think the mind is a very intriguing thing, a beautiful, interesting and intriguing aspect to our being.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. The mind can be positive, the mind can be negative. The mind drives your mood. The mind can be negative. The mind drives your mood, your feelings, your behaviour. So it is really, really important, isn't it? Now, I know that you know people will have an idea of what a mental illness is, but from your perspective, as a professional in this field, what are we talking about here? What is it? What is the mental illness?
Speaker 1:I think it's a difficult thing to sort of categorically put into a defined category. What I would say is that it's a spectrum and it is something that can go all the way from, can start off as a little bit of anxiety about approaching a task, for example, that can then become a bit more challenging and problematic and can interfere with other aspects of your life, and then it can go into something, become more into something more debilitating. And that's where, you know, I come in is when it suddenly becomes, you know, or gradually, rather, becomes something called serious mental illness, and that's when the psychiatrist would get involved and would start prescribing, etc. Illness is possibly, we could say, the lack of health. It was a way of framing it and I think health is more around functionality, you know, and how functional we are. But it's a spectrum and I wouldn't like to say it is one thing or another I think that's really helpful to frame it as a spectrum.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because we're all on the spectrum, aren't we one thing or another? And it's really important, I think, when it comes to mental health, to normalize it as much as possible to avoid stigma. Um, because I think that's why some people don't come out out and express how they're truly feeling, because they do not want to be judged and they don't want the stigma. They don't want to be treated any differently. So it's important that you mention that. It's on the spectrum and it could happen to anybody.
Speaker 1:It could come about at difficult times, and often we find that people who experience adverse life events yeah, you know so either in childhood, adolescence or even later on in life, people who go through a serious relationship breakdown and that can be a trigger for, you know, a depressive episode or what we call an adjustment disorder, which then doesn't quite heal, get better and the person becomes quite depressed. And so it could happen to anybody. And I think we can talk about more about preventative ways and what we can do to protect ourselves from. We can't necessarily protect ourselves from adverse life events, because we never know when they're going to happen, like an accident, et cetera, but I guess what we can do is protect ourselves in a way that would help us to manage a situation better.
Speaker 2:And I think it'd be good if we can touch on some of those. You know some advice and strategies as we progress through the podcast. If you are enjoying listening to Dr Fear today, please tune in to the At Doer podcast that's Diary of a Working Woman, where you'll find out more about mental health and we will end with some signposting, really so you can get support if you need it or a friend or family member is in need of support. We've heard that mental health is on a spectrum and mental illness is on the spectrum. Mental health is on a spectrum and mental illness is on the spectrum. There's a school of thought that mental illness is hereditary and then others believe that it's actually more environmental. Is it a combination of both?
Speaker 1:What way are you coming from with this? It's definitely a combination. However, for what I call SMI-serious mental illness like bipolar affective disorder, schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder, depression, there's a very strong hereditary component and it could run in families. It does run in families and so you know we find that you know, maybe a parent would have maybe something like postnatal depression and go on to have depressive illness in life later on and the child at some point will have depression, and so it's not uncommon. You know it does run in families, unfortunately. Yeah, but that does not preclude us from thinking about how to, or does actually possibly, what we could, how we could frame it, is that it could enable us to have the conversation about how it is that we protect ourselves absolutely for future episodes and what is it that we can learn from our loving, you know, mother or father or partner, a child? You know that that's experienced it, um, and how we can sort of support each other and the person.
Speaker 2:It's all about the support, isn't it? But I suppose, before we get to the support stage, we do need to know what those triggers are. We do need to understand the symptoms and we do need to have a bit of a not a bit of knowledge of all these different types of illnesses. Now I know that you're a specialist in psychosis. For example, we hear a lot about anxiety, depression, so much ADHD these days, but not so much about psychosis. So what is that and how do you spot that?
Speaker 1:yeah, people are very sort of, you know, curious about what does psychosis mean? And often my patients would say to me but what does that actually mean? Well, psychosis is, people can say. Well, reality is possibly subjective. So sometimes people would say, well, religious views.
Speaker 1:Very often I hear that people say, well, I believe in hearing the voice of God or seeing a spirit or whatever it is. And I think, yes, I think we have to sort of contextualize our experience and we can't be too sort of rigid about it. But when it becomes a problem we have to be very clear that psychosis is being out of touch with reality, hearing things that other people don't hear, usually voices, or experiencing beliefs that are very unusual and peculiar to you. Often people would say I have a relationship with the queen or the family, the world family or you know, and then people become what we call manic. So they would have other symptoms alongside it, but delusional ideas. So you would get, you know, that sort of manic or hypomanic flavor to their psychosis. And then other psychosis would be paranoia, persecutory delusions, feeling watched, feeling followed, believing that someone's coming after you, and even in the sort of confronted with the evidence that that's not the case, they would still hold on to it.
Speaker 1:It appears far too real to them. So 100% sort of conviction in the delusion, 100% sort of you know conviction in the delusion.
Speaker 2:And how do you manage that? Let's say, you are living with someone who's sort of showing these sort of symptoms, yeah, or you know of a friend or family member. It's a very sensitive subject, isn't it? How do you broach it with the person? Because obviously they're out of touch with reality. But they can't see that. But you can see, absolutely you know what should you do in that situation.
Speaker 1:It is a very, very complex and very sensitive and delicate scenario and we get this a lot, especially in our setting in London, where families live very closely with their loved ones, and in some communities there's a lot of distrust for the pure medical model or the Western model, and that's completely understandable with the historic sort of racist imposition of mental health, the legacy of institutionalisation etc.
Speaker 1:And the disparity in the way people are treated across racial and ethnic grounds and I think we need to be very, very clear about. There's a real distrust with services etc. And people then sort of withdraw with their family member. They want to sort of keep them at home and not really seek help. I would say to always seek help, because it can be quite distressing on your own having to manage that situation. But yes, I mean I think support for the family is essential and having a systemic approach which is, you know, I find that very rewarding work, working systemically with families, with families and members with mental illness and their loving ones with mental illness, and it's about supporting them, taking into account their views and really validating their view on their position and what's going on.
Speaker 2:But what if they resist that support? Who would you call in this situation? I mean, let's take it right back. Who do you call in this situation?
Speaker 1:I mean, let's take it right back. Who do you call? Well, we try and gently be there and support them, even though they may not want the support. Just, you know, check in gently. There may be one family member who's reaching out, the others may be closing up, and so we gently connect. That way, we show them other ways. There may be things that we could offer them that are not medication necessarily. You know therapies, or you know housing related matters or financial matters, sort of access people in different ways, because these things all come together to create the stress absolutely. And so accessing people in different ways, being creative in the way we can support people.
Speaker 2:So do you take direct referrals from the public or would you have to go through the person's GP?
Speaker 1:Mainly through the GP, unless they're in a crisis and they go to A&E and yeah, so it's usually A&E and then we get referrals that way or through the GP. Just go to your GP and say I'm really struggling with my loving, my family member, and I'd like to be assessed. I'd like them to be assessed before it gets to the point where it's unbearable and very difficult.
Speaker 2:And where does you've said they hear things, see things, what's about? And I'm sure this is normal and sometimes I hear myself doing it as well.
Speaker 1:You're talking to yourself.
Speaker 2:People talk to themselves. You know, especially you know following COVID when you're isolated, how concerned should you be if you witness a family member who's constantly talking to themselves? Is that something to worry about?
Speaker 1:I think that we need to sort of be very accepting of difference. I think we're moving away from that very rigid medical model of uh, you know, everybody needs to be grabbed and put onto treatment. Yeah, you know, we're moving away from that and certainly I don't practice that way. You way I see the spectrum as in people may hear voices and the voices may be even soothing for them or may serve a function for them.
Speaker 1:There is the view also that as long as you're not treating psychosis, it's going to become difficult to treat it when you do treat it Right. So there is some evidence that shows that it's better to treat it early on because you have more chances of treating it. However, it shouldn't be at the cost of, you know, destabilizing the person's psychological condition. So it's complex in that we're trying to balance our wish to treat the person with where they are in recognising and having the insight Insight is a very big thing in mental health and recognising fundamentally that you need the help, that something is amiss and that you need the help, and then taking that first step to accessing help.
Speaker 2:Wow, thank you, that was really clear. So psychosis, an episode out of touch with reality, but it is still on the spectrum. I think people are definitely very aware of how depression can manifest in different people and I think again, you've mentioned environmental stresses and going through a difficult time of bereavement or what have you a breakup in relationship and experiencing depression. But when does depression become a concern? Because you know I'm going to mention this people that we will know of a certain age. I've got lots of friends around me who are either pre going through pre-menopausal stages or through the menopause and they've experienced anxiety and a lot of depression. When does it come out? The realms of normal, I think?
Speaker 1:you know that's a very relative and subjective experience, and so what may one person may experience may be normal for another, and some people can experience the perimenopause very early on, so in their early 40s, mid 4040s, and it's obviously it's a very. Some people go through it effortlessly, with no notice, right, and others would be completely destabilized by it. So again, we're talking about a spectrum, because we're all sort of within a spectrum of presentation. What we're talking about here is women recognising for themselves that things are not the way they used to be and things are changing inside them and their interface with the world is changing. And that can be from simple things like, you know, a little bit of brain fog.
Speaker 1:So you get up and you're sort of struggling to concentrate some days, or you're sort of struggling with your energy levels, lack of motivation Absolutely, absolutely. And then relationships making the effort to go out and maintain your relationships or doing things with the children or your partner, and then just sort of wanting to be indoors more and then losing your confidence sometimes and sort of really, you know, feeling a bit wobbly. You know Wobbly is a good way of describing it. Yeah, not yourself.
Speaker 2:Because you're not quite ill. No, but you're just not quite right. Yes, yeah, so wobbly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if you think about your hormones, it's so important, right? Your oestrogen and progesterone. They're so important for your functioning, for your functioning for your bones, for your mind, for the other functioning of your other aspects of your health. So we're really dependent on our hormones, and if our hormones just decline quite suddenly over that five, 10-year period, we're looking at significant change in our bodies and then in our minds, and so we can't expect to be completely the same, and I think that we think less about the preparation in our late 30s, early 40s. How do we prepare ourselves to that?
Speaker 1:And women there's never been enough research on women's issues and we always play and catch up and we tend to neglect ourselves at the expense of, you know, our children Caring for everybody else Exactly, and the system does the same thing to us as well. And so, yes, there's a lot of sort of awareness about breast cancer and serious conditions, but something like which is something very natural, like the perimenopause and menopause is something that's overlooked to a large extent extent, and it's only recently that people are now thinking about this is very serious for women which is definitely something, isn't?
Speaker 2:it affects your mood. You know just everything, and it's always been the case. You just get on with it. Yeah, you know, you just hold your head up and you just pretend it's like. It's like pregnancy, isn't it? When you start, you know, complaining about feeling you're the morning sickness, that goes on for the entire pregnancy and people say, well, what do you expect? You're pregnant, you know.
Speaker 1:Just just deal with it and you'll get you know other women happening that it's okay that you get on with it. Yes, you think. Well, actually you've been here before. Yeah, you should absolutely passionate.
Speaker 2:I know you're a doctor, but you know what you're just saying that just I've just had flashbacks being in hospital, to really tricky pregnancies, um, with this, um, uh, hyperemesis, gravidarum, sickness, entire. I had that, that so-called morning sickness, for the entire pregnancy and the moment they stopped, at the moment both babies came out and I think you know, sometimes medical practitioners are the worst for empathy and sympathy. I remember that the nurses being completely unsupported and just saying look, you know that thousands of women have gone through this, you will be fine. You know, just just get on with it.
Speaker 2:When you're feeling actually really, really, really disillusioned about life, I remember lying in the bed one day just thinking do you know what? I just want this to be over. I cannot take this anymore, because every single thought in my mind was sort of just consumed with this feeling of sickness and hopelessness and helplessness. So I think I went through a depressed, a depressive state when I was pregnant. Personally, when I look back now and I think how I was presenting and my partner found it really difficult managing me and the pregnancy and everything else, and so you know how, how do we support our friends, our family members who are going through these mental health, periods of mental illness. How's it best to support them on a day-to-day basis, where they don't want to leave the house, they're feeling, sometimes suicidal in some cases. What do you do because the incline, the inclination is to to withdraw from everything and from society when really they need to be reaching out, don't they absolutely?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's a really tricky one because you want to sort of meet them where they are. I always say to people where are they at now? So we can want a lot of things for other people, but it's really important for them to start thinking in themselves first and then to meet them where they are. And it's very difficult for families to hear that, you know, because they sort of want to sort of, you know, just roll up their sleeves and just say, let's just get in there and do this and do that for them. And that can be overwhelming for someone who's depressed, and depression can be a very heavy load to bear. And you know you're sort of interfacing people who are not depressed and you're recognising that you're different and you're in a different space and zone entirely, and so you really want to meet them where they are, firstly and foremost, and then gently start things activating them. So I would call it behavioral activation and it's a tool that CBT therapists use very early on with depression and that's really sort of.
Speaker 1:I say this to all my patients on a Sunday evening plan your week, no matter how you feel with your support system, with the person you love, your parent, your partner, your child. Plan your week. So Sunday evening, sunday afternoon, say I'm going to do this on Monday, put two things in the diary, even if it's half an hour walk in the park, you know, or you know, take out my mindful book and do some mindful, but put it in the diary. 10 am this is what I'm going to do. 2 pm this is what I'm going to do. It doesn't have to be anything extravagant, anything difficult. That's going to demand a lot of you. But if you have your diary, your calendar for the week and you've got two things in there, you will get up on Monday morning with the idea that you're going to have to do this. You committed to this the day before and your week will be done. You will find that activation itself releases the serotonin, releases the happy chemical and as it's released you will feel good and you will have that motivation to do the next task at 2 pm. And you will go away that day, go back to bed, feeling a little bit better, more achieved.
Speaker 1:You know you've ticked what you've done for the day and there's that motion, that sort of very human behavior that activates us, that keeps us grounded, keeps us focused, because if you can imagine the complete converse. You wake up in the morning, you don't have anything in your diary, no structure, nothing, no routine, and so you don't. You've got no reason to wake up, right, so you might as well spend the day in bed. And there's no planning, there's no the idea of planning. Something is putting you in that metacognitive space for yourself. You're looking after yourself, you're already taking that position of I'm caring for myself. I'm already making a decision in my best interest. It's a very powerful way to sort of reframe that sort of depressive cycle. And of course, you may not do one thing, you may not do anything.
Speaker 2:But you know it's the intention, isn't it?
Speaker 1:And you've got the intention, and then the next day you wake up, say, well, actually I didn't do it yesterday, but let me start today.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. Behaviour activation, absolutely Encouraging you to have a focus for your life so you're not focused on your anxiety or the depression. And, as human beings, when we're, I suppose you know we like to get things done or most of us do anyway and be very task oriented, because that keeps us busy and it keeps our minds occupied.
Speaker 1:so that is really, really helpful behavioral activation is a way of setting yourself a target and then achieving it and feeling like actually I can do something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're worthy, you're worth something.
Speaker 1:It feeds into so many systems of self-value, self-compassion, self-appreciation.
Speaker 2:I know your patients are at the extreme end of mental health, but when they get to your stage, your point, are they completely lacking in any sense of self-worth.
Speaker 1:Yes, more often than not, things have been tried and tested and things are not going very well. And so we have these tiny steps. Tiny steps are so valuable. We cannot underestimate the tiny steps in our lives that take us to bigger steps, to make more significant changes. And so I really sort of hone in very, very difficult things. People don't brush their teeth for months at a time because they don't have the motivation, they don't have the energy, they don't have the will right, because they just don't see the point. And so brushing your teeth, even once every three days, you know it becomes something you've achieved, yeah, right. So if you can imagine that degree of self-neglect, it becomes quite a feeling of being insurmountable.
Speaker 2:And then you suddenly, you know, make that, take that step and things start changing it's hard to have them, isn't it that people would get so low that they haven't got the motivation to brush their own teeth and that basic physiological um care, looking after their basic needs and presumably not eating for days or just completely neglecting yourself?
Speaker 1:So do you get a lot of people who are living by themselves, because presumably it's a little bit easier if you've got a support network around you that can you know, look out for you and support you, but if you're completely on your own, it's very isolating and the nature of depression is that you seek isolation, you seek withdrawal, you want to be on your own and you end up, you know, people sort of leave you to it often, unless you get very, very motivated, very engaged families, which is not very often the case you know, a family member who will literally have the key to your door get, get inside, start tidying up the place and, you know, at the risk of you telling, being told to you know, bugger off you just go on.
Speaker 2:It's been polite yeah yeah, yeah, that, yeah, that that's hard, I think. I think it's hard because, on the one hand, if you're living with someone who's showing that sort of behavior and they've been becoming more and more withdrawn then part of you wonders whether or not they just need time alone, when really, perhaps that's the thing, the very thing they don't need. But how do you make that judgment? It's hard, isn't it? If you're trying to, you're seeing that there may be a potential problem and you're reaching out and they're pushing you away, or with friends where they've reached out and they said you know, I'm suffering. And you say, right, okay, let's organise this, let's try and do this, and then, at the last minute, they cancel because they can't cope with it. They feel overwhelmed, you know, you can feel stuck, you can feel disempowered as a friend, as a family member.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think it is a balance between you know, sort of looking after yourself in the process, because I always say to people you look after yourself first, you put your own mask on and look after yourself, because it can be quite disheartening if you're rejected by the person, but then also conflict is not ideal. In that situation You're sort of leading yourself into a conflict situation and depending on the nature of the person, you know, sometimes a little bit a conflict situation, um, and depending on the nature of the person, you know, sometimes a little bit of conflict can get you a little bit away, get away with it to the point where the person will engage and accept the help, but you don't want to be. They don't want to, you know, push the person away and burn them.
Speaker 1:It's a very tricky thing, and I think we're sort of contending with that daily with our families, and depression is possibly one area that's very, very difficult. But psychosis is even harder when it comes to your family member becoming paranoid about you and your intentions. Yes, and then you become the source of their paranoia, but all you're trying to do is trying to help them and they don't see it like that, of course, it's very difficult.
Speaker 2:So we touched on psychosis and depression. We've talked about menopause and hormonal imbalances and changes, and talked about partners and friends who are probably showing signs that they need support with their mental health, but not necessarily wanting that support. So I suppose it'd be good to talk a little bit more. We've weaved anxiety in and is anxiety at the less extreme end of that spectrum, would you say, because we all experience anxiety, don't we Absolutely so?
Speaker 1:anxiety would be, you know, also a spectrum of that spectrum, would you say, because we all experience anxiety, don't we absolutely? So anxiety would be, you know, also a spectrum, um, and you know the everyday anxiety we say is healthy. You know, sometimes, you know just, you'll need a bit of anxiety, a little bit of adrenaline to keep you going, yeah, to get out the door to face things. It's when it becomes unhealthy, yeah, it's when we're using the stress to cope in a very unhealthy way, without the preparation required, and we put ourselves in situations, um, you know where, where we sort of overwhelm, overwhelming ourselves. Anxiety is good up to a point and then too much anxiety becomes counterproductive and you're suddenly struggling to actually function to the degree that you were before. That's all about preparation and looking after yourself. So, knowing yourself, and all about people knowing themselves. That's my big thing with my patients Get to know yourself.
Speaker 2:How do you do that? That sounds easy. How do you get to know yourself when you're feeling depressed or you're always anxious? You don't feel good about your body, and social media is making you feel like rubbish. Well, this is the thing.
Speaker 1:When you interface the world, you take a lot of the burden of the world and other people's problems, other people's experiences of the world, and you believe that you have the same thing or you need to go through life the way they're going through. Everybody experiences life differently, right? We all need to value our unique experience of life, and that starts with your earliest year, your earliest attachment. Your relationship with your primary carer is different from your own sibling's relationship with your primary carer, can you see how different we are and unique as individuals.
Speaker 1:so if you think about your earliest relationship, that is usually your determinant for your future relationships, right? And if we understand our earlier relationships and try to sort of adjust ourselves as we go along, based on our attachment style, yeah, attachment styles oh, that's a whole subject in itself.
Speaker 2:Well, it's very important because it is.
Speaker 1:It's about you know how we attach earlier on. And our attachment then relates to how we relate to our relationships our work relationship, our relationship with our work, our relationship with our study.
Speaker 2:So attachment is a very significant contributor to how we live life generally absolutely, and you know, just touching on this attachment, obviously for people who have grown up as a child having secure attachments and these relationships and these life stresses are going to be so much easier to navigate. Absolutely, when you've got those, you know you haven't got the. You've got the insecure attachment, where the problems can become huge if you're not aware of them, isn't that?
Speaker 1:And I think, with the stresses of you know, our parents and you know, if you think about the particular stresses of our parents and how you know there've been lots more systemic demands on our parents. If you're an ethnic person or you know a been lots more systemic demands on our parents. If you're an ethnic person or you know person with who's been through struggle from a history, a legacy of struggle that then gets transferred onto your parent and their experience and they've going through. They're going through struggles, right. And so we have to make announ, make analysis for that.
Speaker 1:We can't sort of say, well, you know a person who's been through a migrant, for example, an immigrant or migrant family, their experiences are different from someone who's lived in a secure sort of setting all their lives, right. So we have to consider that and think about what would that experience have been like for that person, for that mother who's travelled across the continent, come here, lived a very sort of you know, tumultuous sort of interface with the systems around them. Yeah, and then having a child and what was her support around? You know at the time what was the care like for her? We know that there was a lot of racial disparity um, it continues to be in pregnancy and child care yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean black mothers have it the worst, yeah, when they talk about the obstetric outcomes. So we have to be realistic about what it is that our parents have been through, what we then would have been through. In spite of that, our parents would have loved us a lot, but then there would have been challenges, and how much of that would have been projected into us as children.
Speaker 2:That's so important and I think there would have been lots of challenges coming from all angles. And you know some parents. Their parenting style potentially because of their own parenting, how they were parented is that they may be actually more task oriented and may not be able to demonstrate their emotions and show affection emotionally. And therefore, when you look 20 years, 30 years, 40 years down the line at the, the person you once were and your child and you are now, you may not be used to reaching out in for emotional support because you're not used to that. You're used to just the task. You know this being done, that being done, that being done, but not checking in with how are you feeling today? I think, yeah, I think there's a lot of food for thought there.
Speaker 1:Well, you could say that you know, attending to emotions very early on is a necessary developmental experience, right? So as a parent, you've got to attune to the emotions of the child and the child in turn will learn to attune to their emotions. And if you haven't had that, it becomes a struggle later on to start attuning to aspects of yourself. But, having said that, families are different and there's a lot of richness. In spite of there being challenges, there's a lot of richness, there's a lot of love. You know, I have families who are struggling with serious mental illness but find that there's just so much love and compassion, but find that there's just so much love and compassion that really makes things much more within the illness, much more appreciative. People develop together and they support each other in a very loving way, and so it's not a one-size-fits-all and we can't use the same lens to to to to categorize people.
Speaker 1:But I think sometimes through adversity, we learn to appreciate our parents and we think well, actually they've been through a lot and we sort of, and you can appreciate them differently and not just say, well, I haven't, I haven't got that and I didn't get that emotional attendance and all of that I think you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2:All of those things are just absolutely spot on. And I think you know parents do show love in different ways and that can affect how we then show love to our own children. And just an example I was on the train the other day and in my field, obviously, I work with children and young people and I just noticed that on this journey there were two different parents. One into the train, there was a gentleman and he had his daughter. The children were roughly the same age, it would probably be about two and a half, two and a half, not quite three, I don't think. And the way that the gentleman was interacting with this little girl. He was talking to her. He pulled her when she started to get a little bit fussy, pulled a book out of his bag and was reading to her. It was just so warm. He was cuddling her and I just thought, wow, how special it must be to be a little girl with this loving parent.
Speaker 2:On the other side of the train I had a mother and she was attentive in her own way, you know. She made sure that the child had the bottle and everything and she left the child in the pushchair and, like the gentleman, we'd put the child next to him on the seat on the train and she went to sit down and of course, the phone came out and she's on the phone. The little girl starts screaming at the top of her head, throws the bottle on the floor and she's screaming. The mother's becoming increasingly agitated. She's trying to talk to this person on the phone.
Speaker 2:The child's in her view having a tantrum and I just wanted to say the little girl. The girl was lifting her arm, she wanted to go up the chair. Eventually the mother took the girl up to put her next to her and, um, and then the girl knelt into the mother and was trying to talk to her, but mum was on the phone. And then the girl sat there and then, after the screaming, she just sat there and she was passive, she didn't look out the window and she was just staring and I just thought, my goodness, the two different experiences. How will that play out later in life?
Speaker 1:And I know you shouldn't be judgmental, maybe it might have been a one-off, but I don't know and I can't say it's a snapshot of each of the lives of two children of a very similar age and their parenting style. Yes, yeah, and I think some of this is about knowing and appreciating that every day in the life of a child is valuable, because they're constantly learning and they're engaging with their environment, and a child who's not speaking is still engaging with the environment, and they need, in fact, more because they're not speaking yet, right? So you need to really go in there early, and I think parents are different. But, having said that, you know we never really know what's going on, indeed, indeed, and when she goes home, she may then take out her books and then sit with her.
Speaker 2:As I say, it's a snapshot at the time.
Speaker 1:It's unfortunate, I think the phone, I think social media, and the phone is big, you know, I think more and more different countries are responding. You know, like in Australia, you know, know, I think it's a 16 year, you're not allowed to use your phone until 16, the social media until 16.
Speaker 1:So I think people are catching up to this idea that it's more harm than good for everybody, for all of us. Our phone time should be much more, you know, reduced than it is. But I think it's interesting because mothers, mothers, relationships with their children are so important, really important, but it's also very difficult. I mean being a mother myself. I remember, you know, being really exhausted some days. My children would have homework and you know, taking out the books and then, you know, making sure they do their homework and it's not easy.
Speaker 1:And I sometimes expectations yeah absolutely very high bar to what, um, what mothers should be doing with each other, and I think it's it's a very sort of, you know, changeable, flexible um experience, and I think we should not under underplay affection, warmth and affection as long as there's enough, yeah, affection, I think, I think that's right, pick the little girl from, put in a lap and continued on the phone.
Speaker 2:But she's got the closeness. Yeah, maybe that would have, but, as you say, we don't know what else was going on around her at the time, and that's fine. And as a parent myself, I've been there, I've cried over the homework, where the child is, doesn't want to do the homework, and the homework has to be done. You know, I've been that parent as well, so it's really really, really difficult. Before we just walked towards the end because we are running out of time. And so, in my role as an education psychologist, I see I've seen a steep increase in the number of emotionally based school avoidance, where young people are just not attempting school, some as young as primary school, because of anxiety and depression, not being able to leave the house, being fearful of people. Is this just the start of things that are going to be worse for them?
Speaker 1:uh, later on in life? I mean, I don't know. I think there's a lot of change with covid. Since covid 19, I think there's been a huge sort of gap. Like you said at the beginning, children interfacing what we call normal environments, especially children who've been through COVID. We know now that there's just been sort of you know, almost irreparable damage to them and they need to catch up in a significant way.
Speaker 1:Having said that, I think that for everybody and I think we cannot underplay the projection that happens in the home, the anxiety that we sort of impart to our children living with them in the home, so I think a lot of that is often the case where you know we're not doing the preparation at home in sort of supporting our children to take that next step and possibly babysit. We're not doing the preparation at home in sort of supporting our children to do to take that next step and possibly babysit, doing things in a very gentle way. And it's okay to be different. It's okay, you know, if we feel that society is changing, maybe we need to listen in to what's going on to our society. There's a lot of. The world is a scary place at the moment. We just have to put on the television to see. Well, actually, all of that is being transmitted.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so the child had been exposed to all of this Once upon a time. You know, as a child we were never allowed to watch certain you know TV programmes Absolutely. But they're not sheltered from this and I think they cannot psychologically, they cannot cope with the amount of stress in the world at the moment We've been through, we're going through two hours. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:It's being permeated. It's not impermeated.
Speaker 1:No it's going through, yeah, and so naturally, you know, we cannot underplay the systemic effects of what's going on in the world, entering the home, entering the minds of children, and I don't think we're doing enough to to change our world. I think it starts with really trying to look at ourselves as a society and take responsibility. What kind of world do we want to live in? Because a child at home is no different from a child in the war zone. You know, we need to be thinking about children across the world and try to do our bit. And I think, as a systemic therapist, I see people who've traveled across. I've had patients recently from afghanistan who've come across with their children and it's it's very frightening the trauma that they experience and, um, you know, I don't think we can completely shelter ourselves with the experiences of the rest of society in other parts of the world suppose we can't let you go without understanding how you look so beautiful, ready and composed and you're juggling this, definitely you're juggling this challenging role.
Speaker 2:You're professionally, and then you've got your three teenagers and the teenagers and upwards. So how do you balance that? For the working women out there who are juggling, maybe experiencing mental fatigue or burnout, like I've said, what advice and strategies would you give for them? How do you keep, how do you personally keep, all the plates spinning?
Speaker 1:Well, I wish I could be you know, honestly and authentically a role model to answer your question and say I've got it all sorted for myself. But it's quite the contrary and it's still a work in progress. You know, I think I love my work. I absolutely love my work, and I think there's not a day that goes by when I don't just jump out of bed looking forward to going into work. And I think that, for me, if people and young women, especially young people and I say this to my children find that if you're going to be working, you're going to be spending a large chunk of your lifetime doing that, and you're going to be spending a large chunk of your lifetime doing that.
Speaker 1:Find work, find a way to, in part, enjoy what it is that you do the most. So find that niche Now. It made me difficult earlier on, but find a way to gravitate towards that aspect of yourself and seek pleasure in what you do. It's very good advice, it's so important, and I think it starts with that. And then it's pleasure in what you do. It's very good advice, so important, and I think it starts with that. And then it's also the way you work and I think it's so important to be authentic.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of our work is robotic, inauthentic, don't connect ourselves with what we're doing. We do a lot of tickboxing, bureaucratic stuff, and we need to see and find meaning in what we do. Connect with that meaning and you know, and I think, take time for ourselves. I always take time for myself. Sit up if you're sitting in the chair, sit up, stretch yourself. Go for a small walk, five-minute walk around the block. Come back and read. Find joy in the things that you're doing, read. Meet friends. My husband and I we have a date night once a week with that. We do not compromise on that good. We have turns and what to do.
Speaker 2:Just sort of seek joy in our relationships so that's seeking joy, enjoying what you do, and some people aren't lucky enough to be in a job that they enjoy or they started off enjoying it because things got in the way and they no longer enjoy it. And then they feel a little bit disillusioned, maybe disempowered and don't know where to go, and maybe stayed in a job for too long and the joy is completely gone, and that can contribute to the mental stresses. But you know it's about taking action, as you say, the mental stresses. But you know it's about taking action, as you say, it's about baby steps, planning your week, as you say, finding the joy in not only your work life but your personal life as well. And I think those things are really important, taking time, for yourself.
Speaker 1:And I forgot to say a very important thing is boundaries know your boundaries with other people because at the end of the day, people will want and want and want of you, but you need to protect yourself and boundaries are essential. So, for example, emails you know manage the the influx of emails. Put time aside. I'm going to spend one hour dealing with emails and responding to that admin. You know that hour and that's it for the day I'm going to do other things and put in snippets of things you enjoy.
Speaker 2:I, I subscribe to that view. I try, I should practice that every day. It's not always easy, but I think if you've got it in mind, then the intention is there, yeah, and you're probably more likely to achieve it. I write everything down and I hold myself to account. At the end of the day, have I done that? If not, I can try it tomorrow. And that parameter every day am I feeling joyful? Am I happy within myself? If not, what actions can I take? So that that's all really important, and I think what you said is prevention is the best way.
Speaker 1:So, looking, after yourself, knowing yourself, understanding your needs before anything else and protecting yourself. So there's a lot of self-development in this and this.
Speaker 1:It's never too late to develop 60 and developing and understanding yourself. If you need to get therapy, I can put on lots of I can send you and you can attach to the website. Free therapy for black african asian communities. You can access free therapy if you can't afford it. If you can can afford it, there's something called the BARTIN Network, Black African Asian Therapy Network and they have a host of therapists there with all sorts of specialisms. If you need a bout of therapy, there's no shame in talking to someone about your difficulties.
Speaker 2:No, and if you're not black or ethnic and you're one of the doer followers, where can other people more?
Speaker 1:generally go. Mind is a very good resource. Mind is a very good resource and there's Lambeth Mind, there's Suffolk Mind and there are loads of resources on there. There's the Royal College of Psychiatry website for more sort of you know, more serious mental illness related things and there's things on ADHD and autism and we didn't talk about increasing need for or awareness about adhd and absolutely that's the thing.
Speaker 2:It's huge at the moment it's huge. Yeah, yeah, yeah it's huge, but I think thank you for sharing the advice, thank you for the signposting system with these. We will endeavor to, you know, do a link so that people know where to go. But I suppose if you are worried yourself, or if you've got a friend or a loved one that you're worried about, then it's important to seek support. Is that what we're saying?
Speaker 1:Absolutely Samaritans. If they really are urging the 24-hour helplines and obviously A&E then go to your GP. So please, yeah, do seek help and get the appropriate help and leave it to Vesta.
Speaker 2:Dr Melissa, it's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure talking about such a difficult subject and a sensitive subject, but something that touches us all, each and every one of us. It will touch us either personally at some point of our lives or it will affect us through the people that we love and care about. So maybe at another point you'll come on and we'll talk about another aspect of your work, but I'm hoping today that the doer followers will have gained some knowledge, um on some of these mental health um problems will gain some inspiration. It's all about inspiring people. So all the tips about taking care and self-care and self-love and nurturing that love and connectivity.
Speaker 2:You're very young children from a young age and just being aware of the impact of outside influences and how you're thinking and feeling and behaving um taking care of yourself. So thank you and we look forward to seeing you again another time. So thank you very much, thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks for tuning in to Diary of a Working Woman. I hope you found this episode as motivating and uplifting as I did. Please follow me at at do it podcast on TikTok and Instagram. For now I need to say bye, byebye and keep striving to be the best version of yourself that you can possibly be, wearing all the many hats that working women do, sending you love.