Pekiti Tirsia Kali with Royce Ramos Martial Arts

Embark with us on a martial odyssey that transcends mere physical combat to touch the very essence of culture and identity. Our guide through this tapestry of tradition and technique is Royce, a seasoned warrior from Nomad Kali, whose 43-year journey through the martial world from the streets of Queens to the spiritual depths of Kali is as inspiring as it is enlightening. Together, we trace the evolution of Kali, its significance in the face of colonial adversity, and its enduring legacy in a modern world that still echoes with the clash of blade and will.

Step onto the mat and feel the rhythm of combat as we navigate the crucial dance of footwork in Filipino martial arts. The intricate steps of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, Sayoc Kali, and Arnis are dissected, revealing the strategic beauty of 'hit but don't get hit' and the subtleties of the four ranges of combat. Discover how mastery of movement, angle, and the triangle footwork provides the edge in a fight, and learn how even the most ordinary objects can become formidable weapons in the hands of a Kali practitioner.

Grapple with us through the physical and philosophical depths of hand-to-hand combat, as we explore Pangamut and Dumag within Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. Understand why protecting your hands for weapons use is as critical as breath control and core strength for grappling superiority. As we wrap up, we'll share neck-strengthening secrets and post-training stretching routines that could be the difference between victory and defeat. This episode is not just a testament to the art of Kali, but a tribute to the enduring spirit of martial artists everywhere.

NYPTALKSHOW EP.1 HOSTED BY RON BROWNLMT & MIKEY FEVER

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

What's going on, everybody? It's Ron Brown, lft, the People's Fitness Professional, alongside my co-host, mikey Fever, and this is a New Yorkers Perspective. Martial Arts, the Martial Arts Edition. The first Martial Arts Edition we did with the God Supreme from the 5% Nation. This is our second one. The Martial Arts gate is open, if you will now yep, so now that world we're going to cover a lot more often if you guys are interested in combat martial arts. So, um, what royce is my instructor? Uh, I've been around royce now, I think, eight years, seven, eight years or something like that.

Speaker 3: 0:48

Just about yeah, yeah 17.

Speaker 1: 0:52

Yeah, yep, and you know, I've learned Kali from different instructors over the years, you know, for years. You know for years, uh, and uh, you know. No, no, matt Colley has been the place I've been going off and on for for since, since like seven, eight years ago now. And uh, you know, uh, you know, voice is my family, uh, and the reason why is because, uh, royce is down to earth, uh, royce is down to earth, royce knows his stuff and Royce is dedicated to the art. Royce is a true martial artist, true martial artist. And you know who better to talk about Pakiti, tertia Khal, then Royce of Nomad Kali. So that's why he's on right now. How's it going, royce? How's it beautiful.

Speaker 3: 1:51

Doing good, thank you. Thank you, and what hit me up really good, I'm glad I paid him well. Seriously, you know, when we all have our passions right. So whenever we find something we want to dedicate to it, sometimes we walk away from it, but we find ourselves going back to it, or at least thinking a lot of it, and then going back to it. Correct, correct.

Speaker 3: 2:13

So this has been something I've been passionate about since I was a little child and I started very early and I turned 48 in July. So it's like it's been 43-ish years of training, you know, but the last 25 have been very focused on bikini. You know, I still practice and train other things. I'm always open to learn from anybody else, because I don't know it all. Like you said, I'm only 48, not 148, don't have enough of the experiences to claim to be a supreme grand poobah of anything. So you know, I'm always a learner, right as the saying goes. Perpetual white belt mentality, you know, you gotta always think that there's more the glass is not full yet right right so now, uh, break down your history in the arts.

Speaker 1: 3:17

Uh, where are you from? First of all, where are you from and your history in the art?

Speaker 3: 3:24

all right, um, I was born and raised in queens. Well, born in queens, raised in rockland, county. Um, when I was about about five and a half six ish is when, you know started getting big into, like you know, kung fu theater, you know the karate, you know the karate movies, you know Kung Fu movies, stuff like that. And then my mother was already taking Taekwondo, because my father you know the ages of no cell phone, right, you know, and you can't even get to a phone to call 911. Right. So my father was, like you know, learn how to protect yourself, because I'm not going to be there all the time to to be there for you because we work two different places. So she started take one, though before I did, I believe, around when my brother was born, because my brother is 1973 and you know he and she was doing it for quite some time already. And then she became a black belt sometime during the time.

Speaker 3: 4:27

I started, like I don't know, within my first year and so I started Taekwondo and then, of course, with friends, I started learning boxing, kickboxing, karate, judo, jiu-jitsu, kenpo, wrestling Over the years, always training with friends kung fu, some, some long fist, whatever. Um, because after I was taken out of um. Take one, no, because of money. No, no, take you know it's uh, three people going my brother, my mother and myself. You know you know it gets expensive. Yeah, and um, I understand that. You know I don't fall for my mother. You know we practiced for as long as we could, you know, and uh, you know we moved from there and some of the tenants that I grew up with, that's stuff that stuck with me at an early age, not just the early early days of catholicism, christianity that you know, that kind of being a Filipino family which is very strict, very religious and very superstitious.

Speaker 3: 5:33

The stuff I learned guided me throughout growing up. I don't like dealing with bullies. Try to bully me, I don't care, I'll do something. Back then, you know I'd bite you, bite your finger. You know we grew up Then my friend, my other friend, when we started Kali together years later, back in like around 97, 98.

Speaker 3: 6:04

Actually, victor came around 99, 98, 99 um our instructor, virgil mandela. Virgil was the one who taught us bikini. He also taught us kaiju, kambo and shinghi, and I had already practiced other arts between the taekwondo and then, but more informally, you know I so I never considered myself a martial artist, you know, because martial, you know, for me, being a martial, a true martial artist, is if you eat, sleep, breathe it. Now, okay, I do. I go to class once or twice a week, maybe three times If I'm lucky, getting out of here and now we're there. That's to me, and then I don't. It's not the fault of anybody who. You know, life is life, family is family. Our situations are what they are and you know, you're free to consider yourself however you feel like. For me, I didn't feel like it. Now I feel more like it because this is, you know, we went full time in 2019 and you know, and this is what I do, this is my job, this is my, my stress relief, this is my culture, this is my life. And that's a brief synopsis of from Taekwondo through Kali.

Speaker 3: 7:27

I was never ranked in Taekwondo by the way, I was pulled out early, but we're doing good. I would have gotten my bulldog belt, but I would have to stay there for about 40 years until I hit 14 before I could even test for a black belt. Nowadays, you got black belts at the age of nine, 14, before I could even test for a black belt. Nowadays, you got black belts at the age of nine. Traditionally, you couldn't be a black belt until you were 14 and up Some school in 16 and up. So I don't doubt it's a thing. Actually, the person who eventually gave me my black belt was Grandmaster Paul Dyer. I earned my black belt in Kaiju. Kim paul dyer. I earned my black belt in kaiju kimball.

Speaker 3: 8:05

Under him, he recognized, uh, my work and my training, you know, and I and that's always part of it I didn't continue it because I'm kind of really deeply rooted in bikini right now and right now I'm training with tuhan, uh, romell tortell and actually going by the, the original rankings. Like tuhan basically means grandmaster. Um, he's the nephew of grand tuhan supremo, leo tigaje, who's who brought the art to the uS, to New York, and he brought up Khalid FMA in the East Coast. He's one of the most prominent icons in that and in 2019, he was recognized along with Daniel DeSanto right, if anyone knows who Danny DeSanto is, he's the. You know, he's friend and training partner and trainer and teacher to Bruce Lee. He both taught Bruce Lee and learned from Bruce Lee. They trained together and became friends and they were also friends with Leo. He was also friends with Leo Gai that they got the Lifetime Achievement Awards from Black Belt Magazine for the contribution to the arts. They couldn't pick one or the other, so they honored both of them and I was able to go to Vegas to be there for the seminar.

Speaker 3: 9:41

I was part of it. I couldn't stay for that event because, you know, time constraints but I was still working at my other job. But now it was a great honor to be there and to see them again. You know, and there's just so much in art and the way I look at it. Now I don't get stuck in semantics, I like to look at everything's Kali to me. You teach me capoeira. It's Kali to me. You teach me Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. It's Kali to me. It's not to insult it, it's an absorption of understanding of the mechanics that we do. Yeah, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 10:21

Yes, sir, For me it does. I have a question?

Speaker 2: 10:24

I was going to. Yes, sir, for me it does, so I have a question. I was going to yeah, go For my educational sake and for the viewers. What is Kali?

Speaker 3: 10:33

Very good question, all right. So for those who don't know, kali is a terminology used to describe one of the terms they use to describe Filipino martial arts, one of the terms they use to describe Filipino martial arts. There are a number of terms. The three most prominent terminology in Filipino martial arts One's Kali, one's called Arnis and one's called Echiquete. Now there's kind of a tumultuous head-butting, clashing of ideas on what's the original terminology.

Speaker 3: 11:11

The reason why I can't, I'm not and I know it sounds arrogant for me because I'm American-born, versus, you know, being Filipino, because I grew up for years wondering, kind of being snobbed by the Filipinos that were, you know, born over there. And they hear that you know I'm not Filipino enough. Yeah, I eat more Filipino food than most of them do. They want to eat their burgers and whatever, and their McDonald's and Wendy's and whatnot. And you know I train in Filipino martial art. Well, they shun the Filipino martial art, which is, you know, kind of backwards. You know what I mean, which is kind of backwards. You know what I mean?

Speaker 3: 11:49

Kali, the reason why I look at Kali as an original term, because the other two are really the Spanish. And what did the Spanish do to the Philippines. They knocked on our doors 300 years ago and said, hi, we're here to stay forever and give you know, give us your children and everything else and your livestock. You know. And what do invaders do when they enter any culture? They destroy the old culture. They don't want you looking on the old ways, they want to convert you to their ways, you know. That's why they're a very militant spread of Christianity. Not everybody did that, but the Spanish did, you know. You look at the transatlantic route that they did between the Philippines to the Caribbean areas.

Speaker 3: 12:37

You know, South Central America. You know, there's actually a very there's a, there's a what's called on YouTube. There's a video of Dan and Santos presenting at the Smithsonian and talking about that and how, you know the Spanish would be because there's Spain is a small country even back then, so they would hire mercenaries and two people to roll the galleons who were slaves. So they're there to get the Aztecs, the Mayans, the Incas, the Tainos right. Roll, roll, roll the boat to the Philippines. Okay, you're half dead, get the hell out. When you do slaves, slap them on Filipinos. Roll, roll, roll the boat back. You're half dead, kick them out. Whoever survives is whoever survives. So dead, kick them out, whoever survives, whoever survives. So you know, that's why it's weird. Things like some of the first people to touch ground actually the first people to touch ground in california, on the west coast, were filipinos, because they were basically being, you know, kind of pushed off by the galleys. Okay, you guys, go check out the land, make sure no one's going to attack us, and then we're going to go in there. So the first people to literally touch ground on California, seoul, were Filipinos and one of the first settlers people that jumped ship from Spanish, also were Filipino settlers that got to Louisiana and they'd stayed in Louisiana and head amongst the people there. So Filipinos have been in America for a long time too.

Speaker 3: 14:07

Kali is a I digress Kali. I look at it as original because Kali means sword. Well, kalis means sword, and when you look at Kalis, kali, you know I look at Kendo, japanese fighting style, or kenjutsu way of the sword. Ken is sword, depending on how you write it, it's either sword or fist. So kendo way of the sword or kenjutsu sword techniques. Same thing, kali.

Speaker 3: 14:37

This is the art of the sword and I personally look at multiple layers. I may be, I'm kind of not hopeful, but you know, you look, if you go way back during the time of like, before Spain and even before the a hundred years of the Muslims that invaded before them, the Philippines was part of, you know, the Sri Visayan empire, part of Majapapahit, going all the way up towards India from, I think, alexander the Great. That's where some people think the art kind of came down from. There's talks about. If you look at Muay Thai. Muay Thai is a sport. Muay Thai comes from Muay Baran, the art of nine limbs, not the art of eight, and that's the original art of Muay Thai is Muay Boran, and in Muay Boran they have a double sword style, or sword style called Kabi Kabrong, kabi Kali. The word for sword is Keres, or we call a wavy sword, called the kris kris. Keres is a wavy sword in indonesia and when you connect the words, the etymology, you're trying to sword, sword.

Speaker 3: 15:58

You know, you look at, guru, right. Guru means teacher. Right in our art, guru means teacher, or in language whatever, right. In Muay Thai your coach is known as a kru K-R-U, kru Kru Kuru Guru. Look at, remember, back in the day with Kung Fu Gung Fu, which one's the right one. Remember back in the day with Kung Fu Gung Fu, which one's the right one. It's there's.

Speaker 3: 16:27

You know, of course, localized. You know, like you said, you know ways of speaking. That changes things. You know the interpretation of the words and you know even the words in the ancient Filipino script was based on Sanskrit, called Babayan, so it's related to Sanskrit. Before in Spanish, kind of like went.

Speaker 3: 16:54

And actually there's a book in Spanish from late 1500s 1560, something like a dictionary around late 1500s 1560-something like a dictionary and they called Kali the fighting art of the Filipinos, but it's spelled C-A-L-I. The way they hear Kali, like, as in California, k-a-l-i-c could be K-A, c could be S, right C could be T. You know, depends on where it comes from. So the Western perception of the terminology of how they heard it was with a C. So I've been trying to find that so I can kind of put it out there, because there are certain historians so to say that try to say no, arniz de Mano the first one. No, arniz de Mano could not be the first one because the words literally come from Spanish terminology Spanish when he controlled the island for 300 years. And it's proven that we've had our art. We've even had metallurgy swords, shields, spears, bows Well before that. We've been dealing with pirates, marauders, for centuries before the Spanish came. It's interesting.

Speaker 2: 18:13

Okay.

Speaker 1: 18:14

So that was a great breakdown of the history. Now can you break down the different types of Kali and the parts of the Philippines these different types come from?

Speaker 3: 18:35

So every island if you're familiar with.

Speaker 3: 18:41

So for those, who don't know, know Little History. Philippines is an archipelago, the largest archipelago in the world. It's an island chain. Depending on tide, it's around 7,500 islands, or 7,200 on high tide, so some are underwater at that time. For the most part, most of the larger islands that can support people in life have a tribe or have had tribes, so people have developed their form of fighting over years, especially out of necessity when you have people trying to steal from you or enslave you. You know Filipino tribes would fight and enslave each other over the years, just like you know any tribe versus tribe situation, right Tribalism. And then, of course, spanish came and then they forced people to do whatever In terms of what's surviving.

Speaker 3: 19:34

There's a lot of family-based arts. After COVID and now Zoom and people starting to come out. We're starting to see more and more arts that are from family systems. One that's gotten good traction recently is from Grandmaster Bernas and Bernas Asakado. He's a really nice guy, really cool dude Older and he started lifting. He's looking pretty jacked for someone of his age too, so that's pretty cool and he moves good. He's from Negros, also the same place that Grant Tuhon and Tuhon are from, and so there's a lot of different groups. One of the most popular groups is um jose parry's or the twelve fathers, and um they developed their own style of arnese. Back then. People like grandmaster rodell dag walk from um, from batangas is uh, excuse me, no, he's the master of del is originally modern Arnice. Sorry, but you know that's another one modern Arnice combatant and Arnice de Mano with Doce Paris. That's one of the most, some of the more well-known and some of the older groups that's out there along with bikini, tertia and um uh, sarada, estrema, which would be when, became very popular out in um in california and west coast sarada, very big over in there and then they they have, they create their groups and Serrata has just developed over there and it's hard to say which groups are more popular. But you know there's also Abiniko.

Speaker 3: 21:36

Tres Puntas was Grandmaster Rene Tonkson. He's a great person and he he does classical Arnis, so I would imagine classical Arnese probably. Had I never asked him I should look into it, but because what you just asked me, that might have some connection to 12 Doce Paris, the Cagnettes are known for Doce Paris, coco Cagnette. I have not met any of the senior Kenyettes yet. I have one of my friends who's been to the school and he grew up here. He's a black sheep, rodney Kenyette. I met him back in like 2012-ish Manadudlovic. Back then we went to a tournament and he broke all of our sticks On Rodney In a sparring match. Rodney was Good, he's very good, but he's also been. He recently did some of the Kali with us. He came with me to the mastery camp in October In the Philippines and he was just down. He was loving it. He actually went back again for the tribal camp this past March. He's been. Something comes up. He kind of goes back. It's cool, but yet he's still honoring his, his, his background with Dos Iparias. So it's a lot.

Speaker 3: 23:06

It's a very vast system and group out there. And then you have break-offs of groups or you know other people that have their own groups, like Lightning Lightning Scientific, lightning Lightning Scientific. You look at some of the breakouts of people who have trained in multiple arts and they broke off and did their own thing, like PSYOC. You know, at TANJAS. They have history with PTK, but you know, you can see some of the material is there, plus other stuff that they put together and made their own thing. Um, fcs filipino colleague uh, filipino combat systems uh, they again, another they. They have a connection to both saya and bikini. Um really, you know, I look at it like really cool that you know they, even though I know there's some kind of. I look at it like really cool that, even though I know there is some kind of bad blood, but they develop their own thing and as long as it works, that's all that matters. They propagate to make something happen.

Speaker 3: 24:20

I wasn't there. I don't know who's right, who's wrong. I look at the final outcome. I wasn't there. I don't know who's right, who's wrong. I look at the final outcome. If you can propagate your art earnestly and honestly without having to put down other people, talk smack about the people where you got it from and everything else and whatever, and don't want to admit that you got something from them, that's something you should really look at yourself. You know what I mean. That that's. You know.

Speaker 3: 24:56

If you claim to be a martial artist, we, we, we are supposed to hold ourselves to a higher standard versus the average Joe. We have to be on an elevated level, not just skill-wise or physically wise, but not so much conscious level but just character level. Be a better person. That's a big thing. Honor, integrity, discipline, respect. You know, be a better person, and that's a big thing um. Honor, honor, integrity, discipline, respect. You know kota bushido. Same thing you know. You look at um and you know any martial art worth this salt, in both skill and respect, is because they also embody those beliefs. Does that make sense that does?

Speaker 1: 25:48

I want to ask about this now, sayak. So for what I learned from Pakiti Tertia. So just a brief history with my brief. Pakiti Tertia history with me is I started off with Guru Eddie Hunt. Guru Eddie Hunt under oh my God, why am I forgetting this brother's name? What's the name of it? What's the name of this brother's name? Uh, what's the name of it? Uh, what's the name of this brother's name? Ah, it's bikini tertia. But it's like more tech, like combat tactical. Uh, man, he's one of the big guys over there. Um, oh man, it's just slipping my mind. It's so crazy. But anyway, uh, under guru eddie hunt. Rest in peace to guru eddie hunt. I learned from guru eddie hunt in, uh, new york city. I stayed with him for a couple years and what I learned from guru eddie hunt and pakiti tersha in the city was that you know pakiti tersha is it's, it's, it's more athletic. You got to really move around, you don't really want to be touched by the knife.

Speaker 3: 27:07

It's not a pleasant feeling, right?

Speaker 1: 27:08

It's not a pleasant feeling right, you want to kind of go in and then get get out of there. It's, it's a lot of footwork. You know, it's the drills that I was learning down there. It's more. It reminds me more of like football drills, right, um, like football footwork drills, and it was more dynamic, uh. And then when I went to, um uh, oh, my god, it's too late, I guess what's the name of the brother. Uh, god, it's too late.

Speaker 2: 27:35

I guess what's the name of the brother AK AK.

Speaker 1: 27:42

Now, with AK it was footwork, but it was less dynamic, it was more close quarter and it was still PTK, and with you it's like a blend of the two, the two types of instructors. So with you I learned it's dynamic and then also it's close quarters at the same time. So, um, what would you say? Pekiti, tertia is as far as footwork and movement, versus a SIAC, siac and Arnie's All right.

Speaker 3: 28:18

So I have not seen too much of the Sayak material except for some of the knife work.

Speaker 3: 28:24

And you know some of the stuff you see like in, like the Hunter with Benicio Del Toro and Tommy Lee Jones, that movie, the Hunter Good movie, by the way, they did a modified 12 attacks for the movie itself and Sayak were the people that were brought in for it and that helped put their name out there, which is really good. And I have not seen them do footwork. You know that, chris Sayak and his father, they did the proper you know of. You know sidestepping, cross-stepping, ducking, you know sometimes, because that you can want, you can not want to be a part of a group of, of an art, all you want. But that doesn't mean you throw away what works you know. Every art has it to some degree. Sometimes people just don't realize it. It's there, like when we. You know, when I connect the dots with boxing, right, you see the movements, some of the movements right there in boxing, some it's muay thai. So khali is very dynamic, extremely dynamic, because you kind of have to move dynamically to avoid getting slashed up by a sword or stabbed by a knife. Kali works. So, in my personal observation, in the way I look at PTK, some people say, no, ptk is only this or PTK is only that. It's like, no, no, ptk works four ranges long, five ranges, exactly, not four ranges, right, four ranges. So you have long range. So you got, you know kicking, striking, or at four ranges of your stick barely touching your opponent. Medium range, where you kind of clash weapon to weapon. That's also fist to fist. I could punch you, you could punch me. Close range is when you get, get, you know you can get to grappling in a throw, but extreme, extreme close range is when you are truly grappling dumag brazilian material or you're just body on body kind of wrestling. So you have long, long, medium, close, extreme, close ranges and each one has their purpose.

Speaker 3: 30:41

We train multiple weapon categories spear and staff. You know shield, sword, stick, knife, double knife, karambit, flexible weapons like sarong and, of course, firearm or projectile throwing, spear, bow Some people train bow, in modern days firearms or throwing a knife or an axe. We also have axe material as well. You know, and yeah, you know. It's interesting because if you look up some of the designs of axes from the Philippines, like they're, like the ones who carried these axes were the Igorot and people related to Igorot, the Igorot tribe. They're headhunters, wow, yeah. So, and you know that's part of the culture. So you know, we we cover multiple levels of weapons. We cover multiple because we cover multiple ranges. Footwork is all about positioning yourself. Uh, hit but don't get hit. Uh, some people, you know it's not like back in the day. You know early pugilism, even pre-Queensbury rules, you'd stand toe to toe and just slug it out. You know which actually comes from weapons sword and shield. So this was my shield. Here's my sword.

Speaker 2: 32:13

I'm striking with my sword here, so that's where that originally came from right, my sword here.

Speaker 3: 32:21

So that's where that originally came from right. And if you go before pugilism, before uh, before uh, that you, you have like pancreation and early days of pancreation, uh, striking, yes, you had punches, you had forearms, you had elbows, you had headbutts, you had bites, you had knees, it was, it was, that was brutal. You know what the.

Speaker 2: 32:39

I have a question to ask. You mentioned foot movement formation. Does it go like in three, like a triangular formation, how you move around?

Speaker 3: 32:49

so yeah, so at the core of it, and there's a whole thing about how I've rearranged things to train beginners before they, before going into ranking. So I give a whole basis for fundamentals, because there are people trying to get into this and never trained anything at all. But everything comes down to one angle. You know one diagonal, two diagonal and a and a vertical. When you move them around, you have triangles all over the place. Right, your triangle is only one component of it, but whether you have you look at the X, right, how many triangles do you have there? One, two, three, four.

Speaker 3: 33:42

Right, once we add the verticals, it splits it some more and turns into eight, eight triangles, an octagram, so to say. Right, and you see that in the Filipino flag there's a symbol of. The flag has a sun in it. The sun has eight rays, which represents the eight provinces of the original province, excuse me, eight original provinces of the Philippines. That also represents the cardinal directions. North represents, um, the what's called the uh, cardinal, direct Cardinal directions. You know, north, southeast, west, northeast, northwest, southeast, southwest. So when you look at that and literally it all, you know, uh, um, rob, rob. So you do Kempo, right?

Speaker 3: 34:41

No Goju, goju Karate and Muay Thai Right so people who know Kempo, kempo has a similar symbol where you take an octagon and when you draw the lines, you have the same eight angles, and then it also formulates eight triangles. Is they call that universal pattern of movement? Now, of course. What about then? There's also your straight lines and your circulars. Again, the sun represents the circle as well, not just the straight lines. So it's all angles, angle, angle, angle, angle, angle, angle, yes, triangle, because there's me versus you. And then where I'm going to move next, if I attack you and move offline, I went from my line to your line and step out. I created a triangle.

Speaker 3: 35:29

And then, of course, where we're striking, they say one of the ways, when you see the triangle between you and your opponent, that's just an open triangle. Open triangle meaning like a V right, there's no top right. This is one triangle, right. So if our bodies bridge together and there creates an open triangle of sorts, the closing off that triangle is your attack line. That's one of the aspects that has been taught in bikini. Other aspects is that those lines bisect. When we talk about bisecting, the line we intersect, one line connects to the other. So this way, when we intersect, like so, whether it's diagonal or vertical, right, we create what's known as a window of opportunity. That's our entry points to go in on an opponent, whether it's going to be disarming or wrist locking or control throw or straight line attack. So there's all this level of opportunity, looking for the window.

Speaker 2: 36:44

I was gonna say because you know that now you mentioned, with the whole filipino tactic, in much respect I see the reason why I say the one, two, three, because I see that manny pacquiao uses that tactic when he's boxing the ring from all angles, like his punches be so unorthodox, like they'd be like yo. He's just the ring from all angles, like his punches be so unorthodox, like he's just hitting him from all angles, like he'll be right here one minute. Then he's from the side, like the person is straight ahead with him, but he's attacking from the side. He's coming from here with it, he's jumping here, then he's coming back in the middle again.

Speaker 3: 37:13

Honestly, Mike, I would love to believe, and I've never you know, if one day you ever meet the man, it would be really awesome. Yeah, First, I think it was robbed on a couple of occasions. One or a couple, we all know. But you know, we'll bring that whole other discussion right. I'm lost with that one, but okay, you know there's, but his footwork had always been very dynamic. The only other person who moves like that is like Lomachenko.

Speaker 2: 37:44

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 37:45

Lomachenko, he did dance. You know, they had him learn dance when he was young, so he's light on his feet and moves around and he uses good strategy. You know he'll hit here, bop, bop, bop, and before he throws the next move, as you're covered up, you go bop, bop, bop, cover up. He moves around you and then when he tries to hit you right here, you're not there anymore and then you're taking a shot over here.

Speaker 3: 38:07

It's dynamic and that's how I kind of it's hard to do that in a fight with weapons, with weapons because, you have to be very courageous to get up close and block someone's view and then move out of the way and move over without losing your arm, you know it can be done, but that's because of training and development, because you have to be willing to take this arm and bring back, otherwise it goes, you know, and then they call you ready all day long, you know.

Speaker 1: 38:50

So, now that you explained the difference as far as, like the dynamic movements and things, what about Arnice? Like Arnice seems to be, you know, you know. And Belitnowak like Belitnowak.

Speaker 3: 39:08

So, all right. So, arnice, they're dynamic in the body mechanics movements, especially with their aboniko striking and moving around here. But I've watched certain people move around so some of them have good, they do forward drills. Very common to triangle throughout the Philippines. Very common triangle, open triangle, x pattern right, but there's the patterns right. So what you know, that's right. I separated the patterns right. So what you know.

Speaker 3: 39:43

I asked Ron, I separated the patterns because there's a you know, you know, you know forward triangle, reverse triangle, open, close right, and um X, or a song which is a six way movement, or some people like six to eight actually. But you know, I kind of we don't focus so much on the direct line because our goal is really moving offline and coming back in diamond patterns, hourglasses, um butterfly or you know, like uh, inverted triangles pointing inward. So you get um kind of like that monarch butterfly design, two triangles pointing inward or sideways hourglass. So there's a lot of patterns and a lot of overlap and you can bridge from one pattern to the next pattern, to the next pattern, to the next pattern. So that alone creates a dynamic of positioning from you to your opponent or opponents. What I love about PTK is that the footwork and the body dynamics is trained simultaneously to deal with either one or multiple opponents. No other, in my personal opinion, that I've watched I've trained trains you off the back to deal with multiple opponents.

Speaker 1: 41:04

Right Now, I want to know more. When it comes to Pekiti Tertia, I love the art because it's so versatile. Now, panatoukan that's the word that I learned, but I know it's another word what?

Speaker 3: 41:23

is it so the? The terminology we use in bikini is called panga mud panga mud.

Speaker 1: 41:30

Now.

Speaker 3: 41:31

Panga mud is uh hand-in-hand combat right yeah, and then it means with hands, in other words, no weapon.

Speaker 1: 41:40

Now, what about the ground? How in-depth does Pukiti Tertia go? Because I know Pugna Mut, it goes in-depth, yeah. So what about the ground?

Speaker 3: 41:55

This is great. There's Dumag. Dumag is a Filipino term for wrestling in the Philippines. So we have we have Pangamut, which means with hands, whether closed or open. We have, you know, humpak, which is an open strike like a slap, elbow, inside and outside, forearm hacks, finger jabs, throat strikes of course. Of course you could use a fist, but we usually use hammer fists.

Speaker 3: 42:27

Our goal is, as weapon bearers, weapon users, our fingers right. We don't want these damaged because now we can't grip our weapon. If you're in law enforcement, the last thing you want to do is actually punch. Can you punch and break? Now, you can't pull your trigger or grab. Now how are you supposed to draw your weapon and use it in an emergency situation? That's why, actually, I can understand you should know boxing. Everybody should learn boxing, because it's very good, because it's also good to practice your art against. So understanding the fundamentals of boxing helps you develop certain things, to see things, and then you apply your training from the other martial arts to develop what you need to know and how to protect yourself and defend against people of said arts.

Speaker 3: 43:16

Bikini takes the concept of we are practicing to fight against other people who might know something or more. Most traditional martial arts are trained against, to protect yourself against people who don't know how to fight or competition with or competition. The problem with competition is based on like-minded height and weight aspects. You know weight classes. So me versus Ron would never be seen in a competition or fighting. But if, for whatever reason, we had to, we had to okay, to the death. You know kind of thing.

Speaker 3: 43:50

Now it's a different game. Outside, on the streets, where you know my height versus Ron's, it's a different kind of game. I'm not going to try to go toe-to-toe with him, right, no matter how skillful I am. You know he's a taller, bigger, you know, stronger dude with longer reach, longer with a puncher kicking to me. So to me, to be able to get in close I have to risk bodily harm. So it doesn't make sense. That's why I like Kali. Now things become equalizers force multipliers, pen, phone, anything on your body that you might have, belt shirt, baseball cap all learned from using a pen, using a knife, using sword, using stick, everything comes there. So every time we do our techniques, it's all weapons. This is all weapons to me. I'm using a weapon at all times. So that way, even without a weapon, and this is all elements of Pangamut here. This is all your striking that's going to come into play. That's to me still weapon training. There should not be a disconnect. So without the weapon, I'm still the weapon Make sense.

Speaker 2: 45:18

Yes, sir, Now Dumag is grappling going deeper.

Speaker 3: 45:25

And yes, you should learn that too, because, let's face it, fights go to the ground, whether you want it to or not, it's going to go around, but not the way people think. 80% of fights go to the ground.

Speaker 1: 45:39

So it depends.

Speaker 3: 45:48

Did you trip? Did they trip? Did you throw them? Did they throw you? Did you knock them out? Did they knock you out? Did they throw you and you got knocked out on the ground? Did you throw them? Did they get knocked out on the ground?

Speaker 3: 45:59

right, so there's a layer to that and only a couple of them, means there's still an opportunity to fight back. Obviously you're not. You're not that foul, you're not that foul, you know you. You're lucky to get out of that alive, especially someone wants to do something worse to you. Yeah, that make sense.

Speaker 2: 46:19

Yes, sir.

Speaker 1: 46:20

Now I want to ask about this. Now, as far as Dumag is concerned, some years back, I think I remember I don't recall whether it's from I think it was from. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I learned it from Guru Eddie Hunt where he was talking about, you know, pinching and biting, part of Pekiti Tertia. So now is that like a specific technique, and how in-depth do you go into the pinching and biting?

Speaker 3: 46:51

Well, we don't really go in-depth about it but we always talk about it, that it's there. We have eye jabs, throat strikes. You know, stopping, stopping the ear does the same thing. Palm heel to the bridge of the nose, things like that fish hooking the mouth, you know those are always there. You know, whatever your structure is, when you use, like when we, you know like, you know those slappy bracelets, you slap on the wrist and they slap over like that. So when I talk about what we call a C-grip and when we're parrying or slapping down, I want to latch. When I do that, I have grip and grab. So especially going underneath for the pectoral region here, rip and dare. Throat, ears, whatever. Got an ear pill, head butt. You know, aiming with the corner of the head, you can press and you know really hurt them. You know, get into the clinch, press your head against your jawline. That right there can make a person tap because you don't expect you to drive the corner of your head right into them.

Speaker 3: 47:56

Look at arts like, again, mui Baran and LifeWi the corner of your head and right into them. Look at arts like, again, muay baran and life why. You know we shout out to dave leduc. You know the nomad right um, phenomenal fighter. And you know if you know anything about life ways and whole different rule set from muay muay thai. Whereas you keep fighting, use it, allows head butts, elbows, everything except the biting, of course, bare knuckle. Or they have like little thin gauze and you fight until you can't fight. There's no tap out If you get knocked down. They have smelling salts If you can still wake up from the smelling salts. You keep fighting until you can't get back up. It's brutal, it's brutal, it's brutal. But yeah, you know no different. People are like oh, kali doesn't use any elbows, no elbows.

Speaker 1: 48:51

He uses a lot of elbows.

Speaker 3: 48:54

You know, we use them too.

Speaker 1: 48:57

What about Joe Rogan? Right, he said something on his podcast at one point I forgot when, but he said that, uh, you know a person who's like a martial artist, who's like, uh, you know doing like combat, you know like jujitsu, like you know like combat jujitsu and stuff like that, uh, compared to like a cage fighter, a cage fighter would slaughter. You know someone who's doing combat jiu-jitsu or something in the realm of maybe like a Kali? Now, how I see it is, someone who is a cage fighter is conditioned for that type of uh, endurance, to endure punches and kicks and, uh, you know to endure, you know endure. Uh, you know, you know arm bars and you know locks and stuff like that, for you know a number of rounds for a number of rounds for time and now, when it comes to like, khali is more about I'm gonna kill you.

Speaker 1: 50:09

Basically, I'm gonna kill you or I'm gonna evade the whole situation. It's self-defense. So what do you say? Do you think that if a khalali person conditioned themselves which Kali has a lot of conditioning in it if a Kali martial artist conditioned himself and trained as many hours as a cage fighter and the cage fighter and the Kali person had a fight, who you would think would come out on top?

Speaker 3: 50:45

Well, so here's my thing with that. Uh, uh, it really everything's always like uh, subjective, right. So here's the thing. Does the cage fighter know, khali too?

Speaker 1: 50:59

no right.

Speaker 3: 51:01

So there's things we don't know what the cage fighter knows, all right, are we doing it in a cage fight or are we doing it out on the streets for survival? We have to lay these things out. So Joe Rogan is not wrong about that, but he's also not right about it, because he's honest, that we've met me, even Frankie, even he goes in, you know he gets put against a cage fighter and he's got to use his Kali empty hands versus a cage fighter and they've had the same amount of years conditioning, training. But the reality is, unless you've fought like if it's a cage fighter's first time fighting, it could be either or it's first time fighting, anything, it could be either or 50, 50, right, because if it's his first time fighting, but he's been training and colleague guys have been practicing everything and he's even done sparring and they've been doing sparring, it's 50, 50. But we're talking about seasoned veterans, you know five-time champion kind of, you know cage fighter. And then here's a guy who's fought a few straight fights and seems pretty good and he's conditioned, he works out, he's pretty diesel too. Cage fighter's going to win, he's going to own him because the mentality is different on how he attacks.

Speaker 3: 52:16

Now you train a Kali guy to be like a cage fighter. Same mentality, same attitude, same approach, same everything. Now the thing's different. People keep same attitude, same approach, same everything. Now things different. People keep saying oh, that won't work in the fight, that won't work here, that won't work there. Why? Because, oh, mma UFC. No, there's freaking 60 rules in UFC. They can't use certain moves.

Speaker 1: 52:39

Right, let me cut you off real quick Now. Khali's has a lot of counters, a lot of counters, so someone could be punching. You can go underneath that punch.

Speaker 3: 52:55

Yeah, it's, Ron, it's, I'm going to. I don't want to. So my thing is I'm not trying to be like. You know, Kali is the holy grail of all arts. I think a lot. I think Kali enhances every art out there. If you do a form of martial art and haven't done Kali, take Kali, It'll enhance it to an nth degree. At the same time, I believe Kali can stand alone by itself.

Speaker 3: 53:20

Some people think, oh, it will never be able to stand against boxing or fighting. I think it can if it's trained with that in mind. So what happens is most people do not train that in mind and that's why people like you know, Tuan Philip, Galinas and Angelinas, and you know, and the guys with the Dog Brothers, you know they're real. Nick Papadakis, you know these guys, they fought and they want to prove that it works and it's real, you know. But again, it's a little bit different. You know, Cage fighter.

Speaker 3: 53:53

Again, if you're trained that way, if I'm going to train you to be a freaking rabid dog right away, flip your switch, go and fight and dominate. I'll be more than happy training like that. But it's a brutal mental and physical conditioning. So the average person training martial arts, even in bikini, even in any Kali, unless you're trained to be a soldier. That might give you an opportunity, Like people are trained to be in special forces, training to be a Marine, training to be a force recon in the Philippinesines. If you're trained to be a soldier or swat and you train this religiously before, during and still to this point, still training your pangumut material as well as all your other khali material, yes, you'll have a chance. In my opinion, it's fight, you know, fight for your life, Right.

Speaker 1: 54:46

But but you know, I haven't seen enough. I've seen enough Pug the month to to know the boxing, which would some people call dirty boxing, is really high level. Now I haven't seen enough. Do mock to see if to compare it to Brazilian jiu-jitsu yeah so would you say I would assume that Brazilian jiu-jitsu is more thorough than Dumont.

Speaker 3: 55:25

For the most part. You know some people would say that because you look at Dumont again, it's a generic term for wrestling in the Philippines. But bikini, we have a classification called Dumont and some people would say, oh, he stole jiu-jitsu, he took it from Silat. You know he's been training Grand Tuan Tuan Romel since 94.

Speaker 3: 55:47

No excuse me, before that he was, since he was like 10 years old he's a year older than me, so 75, so 1985. So he's been training him personally since 1985. And then Dumont started when he was around in 1990, early. He was old enough to do it. He learned enough of the striking and footwork and the kicking. Then he started learning Pagamon. Then he started learning Dumont and he's been doing Dumont ever since.

Speaker 3: 56:20

The problem is he's had little traction because there's only a handful of people who do really well with Dumag and those people are the ones who trade together, such as Tuan Romel, tuan Donoy, tuan Kanishka. There's only a handful of people I know of in the bikini. That's high level Dumag and there's people that are developing that now. So like 2ML has been developing people here for quite a few years, like Mandala Rich Howe from Trinkelly in Florida and he's one of the most you know he's learned a lot of Dumag and he hosts the Dumag camp in Florida and he's one of the most you know he's learned a lot of the Dumont and he hosts the Dumont camp in Florida, in Melbourne, florida, every year. Since you know COVID, um, I'll be going there this coming August again. I went last year from first. I know it's phenomenal three days, but it's a great training camp. You know 30 hours of training in three days and it's phenomenal three days, but it's a great training camp. You know 30 hours of training in three days and it's a lot.

Speaker 3: 57:28

Now it's a different mentality, but it's the way I look at BJJ. In the early days it was not meant to be a sport, it was meant to snap, crackle and pop a person. Same thing with Dumont. You don't roll Dumont. This is, you know, boom, boom, boom, snap crackle, pop personal. It's not meant to be okay until you tap. Now during training we just like BJJ, just like a lot of things. We see how far you go and we have to do it in a controlled environment. We can't just snap each other into pieces. Then where are we going with that?

Speaker 3: 58:04

So I think that the material that you learn in the mug again, it's up to the practitioner and if they want to roll train with someone with bjj, they could. They can hold their skill and develop. But I but if when I look at romell and he's trained, some people who do bjj have come to the do mag and they've seen stuff and they're like their jaws are dropping. They're like wow, right, aguilar Ron Koskowski from Connecticut. His son trains in MMA and he's really good.

Speaker 3: 58:36

Jesse James Koskowski, he's an amazing grappler and striker. He's learning some BJJ now to improve his game, but he's fought in AC and he's trying to go to Abu Dhabi. He's going to be. You know, I have a lot of high hopes for him. He's an amazing guy and he's picked up some more stuff from Tuan, because you know, tuan shared some material for Dumag that you know he didn't know about in terms of grappling with his health, and he trained under his father, ron, in Kuntal, like Kuntal Silat or Filipino Kuntal, which is similar to Silat. You know, before he trained in Bikini. So he really has a strong foundation in Southeastern style grappling before BJJ and he did very well. So in my opinion, dumag can hold his own. But again, you have to train it.

Speaker 3: 59:34

See me, I'm late in the game. I'm turning 48. I learned a little bit of BJJ but you know enough to make sure I stay off the ground. The Dumag helps me and I like the Dumag, the approach to Dumag, and so in my head I blend a lot of the crossover material. So that way I know that, okay, this is similar, similar, similar. It makes life learning easier, the ones that are unique. That's what I like and that drives me to explore that more. It's not a dig on BJJ. Bjj is fantastic. I still watch and learn and observe the material that I see from people out there, but again, I don't roll, I don't run jewelry, I'm not going to say I'm that good at that, but I I know I know enough to help me mitigate the situation against someone who does not know yeah, you know I was grappling um some some weeks back uh, probably like a month or so back and um, what I've learned is breath control is important with grappling.

Speaker 1: 1:00:47

Also, having a strong neck and core is important.

Speaker 3: 1:00:54

Absolutely. You know and it's not just you know working traps or working your rambas you know there's a lot of neck exercises you can do. You have the hanging chain for the scalp to lift there, or the one where you bite down on the bit and pull up. Or, like in wrestling, they go and BJJ, they roll on their head forward and back on the mat to strengthen the neck. So there's a lot of things you can do. I would recommend strengthening the neck because you know a lot of people don't.

Speaker 3: 1:01:27

You know a lot of people when they warm up, they ignore their neck. That's why a lot of, a lot of a lot of arts traditional arts they do. They do the left and right, turn up and down neck circles, stuff like that. We do that too, because a lot of people ignore training the neck or working the neck and then when they get hurt, oh my God, my neck, oops. Who fault is that? You didn't warm, you show up late, you don't warm up, you go full bore, you get hurt. And who's there to blame, right? Then of course, you should stretch it, stretch it, stretch it, stretch it. Post-training People ignore their stretching post-workout. Post-training. People ignore their stretching post-workout. That's time for the muscles to to be stretched. When they're so warm there's no chance of pull. You know right, dynamic stretching in the beginning, static stretching post, getting build your flexibility and your body learns to recover quicker. Yes,