Can We Heal Our Divisions? Pan-Africanism in the 21st Century- Herman Smalls

Fitness legend and Pan-Africanist Herman Smalls takes us on a powerful journey from his days inspiring a generation through public access television to his current mission building bridges across the Black diaspora. As the conversation unfolds, Smalls shares how watching his father's Pan-African activism and studying figures like Marcus Garvey and Carlos A. Cooks shaped his understanding of Black global solidarity.

"I got bridges I'm ready to build," Smalls declares, rejecting the divisive framing that often pits Pan-Africanism against newer identity movements like ADOS (American Descendants of Slaves) and FBA (Foundational Black Americans). Instead, he advocates for a Pan-Africanism that welcomes all expressions of Black identity while maintaining focus on collective power and shared destiny.

The discussion delves into the thorny challenges of cultural differences within the diaspora—from communication styles to social etiquette—that can spark conflicts between African Americans and immigrants from Caribbean or African nations. Smalls acknowledges these real barriers while emphasizing how external forces historically cultivated these divisions. He points to J. Edgar Hoover's documented efforts to prevent "a Black, nationalist-minded individual with the ability to organize and bring together many groups under a nationalist banner" as evidence of deliberate attempts to keep Black communities fragmented.

Trust emerges as both the greatest challenge and the essential solution. "The greatest and most courageous thing is often reaching out, extending a hand," Smalls reflects, highlighting how building solidarity requires vulnerability and willingness to move beyond stereotypes. T

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• 25:50 (Cont.) Can We Heal Our Divisions? Pan-Africanism in the 21st Century- Herman Smalls

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:18

All right, what's going on? What's going on? What's going on? Everybody out there it's Ron Brown, lbgt, people's Fitness Professional Co-host couldn't make it this evening. It's all good. I know y'all like. I know y'all love Mikey Fever. Mikey Fever will be back sometime this week. Shout out to whoever's in the check-in right now Watching us right now the first person to look at us on this live, to participate. Really appreciate you. Of course, I'm Ron Brown, lmt. Y'all know who I am, but get to know the brother right here, brother Herman Smalls. Thank you for coming out this evening. We really appreciate you. How you feeling, how you feeling, brother.

Speaker 2: 1:07

Feeling good. Thank you for coming out this evening. We really appreciate you. How you feeling? How you feeling, brother, feeling good, peace, peace and Pan-Africanism, peace and Pan-Africanism, peace and Pan-Africanism. Doing great, brother, thank you. How about yourself?

Speaker 1: 1:17

Life is good, man. Just you know, when you get to know me, you'll know I'm always on the move, I'm always grinding. That's what I do, man. I stay in motion. I stay in motion, Peace Ben. Thank you for coming out, Ben. Being a loyal supporter of the NYP platform, you'll be on the platform soon. Thank you for coming out this evening.

Speaker 2: 1:45

So we got Brother Herman Smalls on the check-in and hold on Brother Herman Smalls because you got feedback.

Speaker 1: 1:50

I'm going to turn your mic off when you're not talking.

Speaker 2: 1:52

All right, that's perfect.

Speaker 1: 1:54

So we got Brother. I'm going to give you an introduction a little bit. So for me personally, this interview is extremely important. For me because I watched brother Herman Smalls on public access on a public access channel back in the days when I was a kid and he's the one that made me go and buy dumbbells at Models, I think when Models I think it was Modell's back in the days they used to sell workout equipment. I don't know if they still do.

Speaker 2: 2:29

Modell's yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:31

Modell's. So he inspired me to go get some dumbbells and start doing push-ups. I was already in the martial arts and stuff like that with the bathhouse Grandmaster Sam McGee and, uh, dwayne McGee, um, and I was always, I was already working out doing karate, kicking and punching and things like that, doing a little bit of pushups. You know, of course, uh, crunches, uh. But man, the brother had a crazy physique back in the days. Man, I was like yo, I got to get my physique like that and you know he inspired me to get into the fitness industry. He was like a spark for me to do fitness. So you know, I really appreciate this brother. He's legendary, he's legendary and he's on. He's on with us today talking about pan-africanism, pan-africanism, ados and fba and uh, I just wanted, I want him to give you a brief history about himself and then we could go into the rest of the interview.

Speaker 2: 3:35

Peace well, peace and uh, I guess I'll start right right where you started. My public life started in fitness. It was an interesting dynamic. It still exists now.

Speaker 2: 3:51

Public access this was a kind of contract between the state and the people. The airways were being bought up and different inconveniences were being brought on a community to put these different cable systems up. So they said, hey, we'll give you all a channel, we'll give you access to these airways for free, just to be residents. So, with public access, so many people went to that fitness was around, that I chose, chose and it was such a good format to connect me with our brother and others. It's such a good feeling to move through Harlem and hear the different stories and it's a nice feeling to know you put energy into something that had an impact.

Speaker 2: 4:39

But the emergence of the internet and what we're speaking on now social media my attention was drawn towards that, more towards I still speak as a fitness specialist and a fitness expert but my social political perspectives. I saw social media and these platforms as an opportunity to reintroduce Pan-Africanism in some respects. So it's out there. But there seems to be a disconnect that I'm trying to address and others that are vying for our people's attention and they're offering lineage and they're offering bloodlines and connections to tribes, and all of this is great, everything about finding out your identity. That has to be a sacred, important journey and no one should impose upon it. But I definitely don't want us to lose sight of what keeps us a global family and what are going to be the principles that move us back to global power.

Speaker 1: 5:50

Indeed, ben ADOS means African Descendants of Slaves. Yes, somebody in the chat asked.

Speaker 2: 6:02

Yes, I believe that's a good opening, but I'm prepared to answer any question related to fitness, to Pan-Africanism, africa, I mean. Whatever your interest or the interest of any of the people in the chat, or if you have callers. However, I can provide information, I'm open.

Speaker 1: 6:23

Right, so the name of today's podcast is Pan-Africanism versus ADOS versus FBA. Before we go into that, I just want them to public access. I want to turn your mic off. Let me do that. Public access fitness. Now, how did you get your physique like that? Did you do a lot of push-ups In your earlier years? Did you do a lot of push-ups? Did you do split routines? What was it? Did you follow an encyclopedia of bodybuilding by Arnold Schwarzenegger? What was your go-to?

Speaker 2: 7:04

I would dare say a percentage, and the percentage will vary depending upon who you speak to and this is what a lot of folks they'll say it, but then it doesn't get calibrated. There is a percentage of certain looks that are genetic, meaning you know the body type endomorph, ectomorph, mesomorph. Meaning you know the body type endomorph, ectomorph, mesomorph. So there is a body type that the mesomorph tends to move the wider shoulders, thinner waistline vis-a-vis an athletic type, build, so one. If you have that body type and you're fortunate enough to be steered into athletics, those two go hand in hand.

Speaker 2: 7:45

But that doesn't mean the other body types can't have major changes in increase of muscle tissue, reduction of cellular fat cells. So that's what a trainer does. You manipulate your body's mass to be MI. You reduce that fat percentage, increase the muscle tissue not always mass, that gets a lot of folks distorted. You can increase it in leaner, more defined muscle tissue as well. So that changes the shape. So yeah, so I forgot how it kind of went off at the side, because I know fitness and pan-Africanism are going to go in and out.

Speaker 1: 8:25

But if you could restate the question, so I wanted to know how did you get your physique like that, you know, in your earlier years? Did you do split routines? Did you use encyclopedia bodybuilding? You know?

Speaker 2: 8:39

It's very interesting, as you did in your intro. You mentioned you did martial arts already, so a martial art. I mentioned you did martial arts already, so a martial art. I was in the golden gloves. At the same time my spark and my interest in weights was coming together and if you don't do those too well, one can hamper the other. So calisthenics for the golden gloves. I did a lot of running, monitoring my diet, so the genetic aspect of it and the training, yeah, calisthenics and free weights, because I didn't want. I was comfortable with the size I was, but I always wanted to maintain speed, agility and endurance and if you're not training for that, the weight room takes you in the opposite direction.

Speaker 1: 9:23

Right, exactly, exactly. Now to take it off into Pan-Africanism versus ADOS versus FBA Pan-Africanism can you break down, give a description of what Pan-African actually is? Who created the terminology and how? After it was created, what was the history? How did it morph into something greater than what it was when it was created?

Speaker 2: 9:51

Excellent question and even to start with the construct I meant to mention it earlier the Pan-African versus the ADOS, versus the FBA Definitely want to take versus off the table my the biggest part of the initiative I want to do from a pan, from a pan African perspective. I got bridges, I got bridges I'm ready to build. So I'm not, I'm not versing Hebrew, israelites, the Moors, I'm not versing nobody. I got hands open for brotherhood. So my perspective is discussing how all of them have a seat at the table in the Pan-Africanism that I am trying to reintroduce to people. So my question to them, when I get to that portion, is do they have a chair at the table in their ideologies, in their beliefs, and if not, what is it going to take to get us all to come together?

Speaker 2: 10:56

The history I wish I had did a little more specifics related to dates and times, but now we all know or most of us anyway know the Honorable Marcus Mosiah Garvey's work, so that work just stands out. But he didn't just drop out to the sky. Obviously, you know, back on the continent we've had from movements like Kenya's Mau Mau and Kruma, from movements like Kenya's Mau Mau and Krumah. It gets deep as far as having one origin, but the one that most impacts me directly and, interestingly enough, my father and we tend to follow the paths our father leads. He was a Pan-Africanist and it was the Honorable Marcus Masai Garvey. So if I could I'll stay with that lineage, not to discredit or discount of the other men and even women. We don't give the sisters enough insight in the upholding of Pan-Africanism.

Speaker 2: 11:56

So again through that line, and we know, the Honorable Marcus Mosai Garvey made his mark here in Harlem where I sit right now. He was probably a five, 10 minute walk. His headquarters is a landmark here in Harlem. He built his strongest base here. Until we know the story Some of us don't that the what became the FBI was formed to destabilize that kind of movement, that kind of nationalism. We'll get a chance to talk about that nationalism, pan-africanism, because the two are linked. I see you want to add something.

Speaker 1: 12:34

No, no, no, Go ahead, I'll let you go Again from Garvey after the opposing forces, agencies and government.

Speaker 2: 12:48

They were behind it. If they were successful in getting him deported, the ideology had still left its mark, its imprint. So there was a young man that picked up the banner. His name was Carlos A Cooks, carlos Alexander Cooks. He was the founder of the African nationalist pioneer movement, the ANPM ANPM. So a lot of my direct references from my pan-Africanism is going to come through that line and it's considered an orthodox form. An orthodox is simply as strict as possible in your finances, as strict as possible in your ideology. Moving forward, you are pan-Africanism first and, interestingly enough, locally that spells out as nationalism.

Speaker 2: 13:40

Now, nationalism is such a term that's been so misused because it's usually associated with white nationalism and we understand the machinations and we exist in the machinations of what white nationalism has done. But black nationalism, from its earliest days, it was formed to in many ways combat the forces of white nationalism and nationalism is simply a group moving on in accord as a nation and we live in a nation. When you travel, you travel to other nations. So being a nation is not a bad thing. So being a nationalist is not a bad thing. But again, the white nationalist has put such a stain on that name throughout history? Because nationalism was part of what Hitler used to bring his people about. But guess what? Nationalism was what Mao Zedong used. So it depends on the nature of the people what you do with nationalism. So black nationalism has always been we're going to run our own businesses. Our politicians are going to speak on our behalf, like the FDA's FDA first, b1.

Speaker 2: 14:49

That was already in Black nationalists, pan-africanists it's. Your leaders got to speak for you. So we've lost that disconnect. You run the business in your community. How can other nations control the commerce? You protect your community. You got a standing army. The African National Pioneer Movement had a standing army booted of men, 300 at its peak. So these were men that moved through the community and secured it. So there were. It was just. It was such a time that history practically ignores.

Speaker 2: 15:24

Many of you listeners probably never even heard the name Paulus Cooks before, because the number one threat that was articulated by J Edgar this was written down by J Edgar Hoover. We have to stop specific enough A Black, nationalist-minded individual with the ability to organize and bring together the many groups under a nationalist banner. That was their number one threat. That's why the sites were set on the Honorable Marcus Mosiah Garvey. That's why that same target followed to Carlos A Cooks and eventually, again those machinations were able to derail, in some respects, the movement and how nationalism was able to flourish. So that's my direct connection and my historical walk through it, from my father getting out of the Korean War that's the war he fought in the Air Force. He's a former vet. Many men with military training, they had that knowledge, that insight. So the timing and the leadership, the mindset, moved us right into what we saw and I see as one of the best ideologies for us as a global people and that will give us the principles locally for us to start to control the destiny of our people.

Speaker 1: 16:50

OK, great answer. Now let me just, when you stop, yeah, yeah, whenever you stop, just mute your mic. So we have someone in the chat. We have someone in the chat. Pan-africanism is the reason why there aren't any major US freedmen communities in the entirety of New York City. If US US freedmen continue to be Pan-African and turn a blind eye to mass immigration, there won't be any more US freedmen communities in the entirety of the US.

Speaker 2: 17:35

I mean, are people able to call up or come in, or are they just going to write?

Speaker 1: 17:39

Well, right now they're just going to write. But I mean, but next time when you're up, if you want me to put the phone line on, I would do that. But.

Speaker 2: 17:48

I mean for me, because that's such a good question, but I want to give it. I wanted him to spell out a bit more. Give the history of the freedmen, and why does he see one limiting the other limiting the other? Uh, as so I, I think again, he I got from that those words that he sees is, uh, a winner and loser in those two competing for something.

Speaker 1: 18:13

so if he was available, or maybe did you get a clearer version than i- okay, um, so, uh, I'm not sure if you know what freedmen, us freedmen are, but the US freedmen would be us, it would be, it would be what's called African-Americans or you know things like that. You know African-Americans or what they call FBA or ADOS?

Speaker 2: 18:42

That's my first time hearing freedmen used that way. Now there is a historical freedman, so I'm glad you cleared that up, because that's the group I was thinking about Now. These were the first men that got freed, that took that name and began to move with that. I don't know from a nationalist perspective, but okay, if he's using that to mean FBA, okay, the Pan-African is taken away from, OK, the FBA. Our, our ownership of this, and I don't mean to in any way take away from the brothers and sisters that are finding so much pride and identity in it. I get it. I get it.

Speaker 2: 19:26

I'm just trying to understand exactly what we're safeguarding and what we're blocking and aggressively making sure that no other brother or sister that looks exactly like us, but again born in a different part of the world, speaking a different language, maybe because they had another colonizer. So I got to lock something down. Okay, I get it. We cook different, we have music, we got athletes, blah, blah, blah. Okay, all of that is great. So nobody else, none of y'all, belong to this. This is ours. So now, y'all been taking too much of us so long. So now y'all been taking too much of us so long. So now we're shutting the door. So now y'all can get locked up in front of us and we will giggle with the oppressor. Oh yeah, get ahead. You never should have been here. So the dynamic again it sets us up. So we're scrapping for some crumbs off the table without even looking at how we even got like this. But now we got school because I go to different and as long as brothers and sisters express themselves respectfully which gets rough sometimes with some of these folks but you know, I love hearing what they're saying, I hear, hear the pride, but I don't think they see how this is being manipulated. And what's so interesting? I don't know if I shared some of my lineage. Both sides of my lineage go back through South Carolina, four generations on both sides Now South Carolina, that's ground zero for American terrorism and oppression of Black people. So that's right through on both sides. So I mean FBA and all it. I get it. It goes through my bloodline. I understand it.

Speaker 2: 21:33

But I also understand what's going to get us back to power, Because I'm using an example right now with the MAGA folks. Look over on the other side, Look what that quote-unquote team and I don't even like the left wing, right wing stuff, but for this instance, look at the vice president's wife. His wife is an Indian. I don't know how many people have known that Donald Trump's son-in-law is Jewish. I just mentioned those two groups because we constantly call him a hardcore racist, he a Nazi, he a white nationalist, blah, blah, blah. But if you look at that ideology, those two groups have never made the cut. Put those differences aside, because this is their last attempt to secure white supremacy so they can put together major dents in their ideology to try to patch up the holes in the whole run of power.

Speaker 2: 22:36

But we the sun is finally switching, the shifting of hegemony is coming our way and at a time when we need to stand as one, we're going to now find these local squabbles into these superficial identities so we can floss on each other. Because I don't even see that taking that battle to the beast. I just see it as us. Yeah well, you not, and y'all are taken from us. And that's the one thing I miss so much about Khalid. Khalid went at the system. He went at the system. He was calling this beast a beast to his face. But we just so interested in giving brothers and sisters smoke, and that part of it I want us to see to put our energy toward building bridges and finding commonality, and it's there. But we seem to put so much energy into division for superficial reasons In my humble, humble opinion. But yeah, brother, I want to hear your thoughts.

Speaker 1: 23:41

Well, I agree, and that's the purpose of this podcast. The purpose of this podcast is to have conversation and bring people together, our people together. I understand the Freedmen perspective. I understand the ADOS perspective, I understand the FBA perspective. However, pan-africanism is more of a global thing, as opposed to it being more centralized and focused on so-called African-Americans or black Americans. We have more power with numbers, with numbers and different perspectives and talents. If we could bridge the gap between us those in the Caribbean, the African diaspora we don't need to be separate, because that was the plan from the beginning anyway to separate us. And now we continuously, throughout the years, now hundreds of years, perpetuate the separation that was given to us. So I just don't, I just don't find it productive to maintain this in-house fighting, if you will, for lack of a better term. So let's go back into African Pan-Africanism. What's your definition of what Pan-Africanism is?

Speaker 2: 25:44

Pan-Africanism is simply, as I can put it, it is an ideology that states before the world that a people that have been dispersed among the world. We're in different places but we all have a bond and a connection to a root, a base, and from that base we have branched out. But in our attempts to reestablish that network, that strength, we are going to come under common principles that benefit and protect all of us against common foes and common adversaries. So, as a Pan-Africanist and I briefly said earlier the local portion of Pan-Africanism is nationalism. So your local nationalism, when you elevate it to an international level, becomes Pan-African. So you're connected to other Black—I use Black and Pan-African interchangeable—but other Black nations that have the same basic root. This can cover finances. This can cover the need for men to go to battle in different places if needed, and we were at that place.

Speaker 2: 27:09

Carlos Cox raised $200,000 to support different struggles for liberation on the continent of Africa. Now $200,000 back in the 50s it's got to be at least $7-8 million now. This is monies that were raised from the community and men that were willing to sign and travel. So just imagine, can you imagine that, where we were so far back then, mentally willing to put skin in the game Because, again, the understanding of nationalism and Pan-Africanism was a lot stronger. So, again my that the understanding of nationalism and Pan-Africanism was a lot stronger. So, again, that's a summation of my definition of it yes, pan-africanism. All leading back to the same base, all standing on principles that understanding the collective as brothers and sisters, irrespective of a different colonizer's tongue or a landmass, we are collectively brothers and sisters.

Speaker 1: 28:12

Right Now, this question is okay. So, pan-africanism we bring. All you know, we're a global people. We're trying to bring everyone together. I'm going to turn your mic off. We're trying, we want to strive to bring everyone together, right?

Speaker 1: 28:29

However, the conditioning that we were basically brainwashed with in all of these different places, that's where the conflict lies. That's where the conflict lies, you understand, because and we don't we don't, from what I see, from what I see, usually we don't respect one another's culture in a sense, right. So like, if you come from, let's say, jamaica and I, and I'm african-american and I'm conscious, we're both conscious those little, you know, schisms and issues and things like that, we kind of like it kind of shows its face when we interact. And you know, like basic manners and things like that, we all raise differently, and in the Caribbean they're raised a certain way and in America they're raised a certain way and in america we're raised a certain way. So manners to uh, um, people from the caribbean is different from manners for uh to african americans or black americans. So how do we get past the cultural differences? Uh, you know, in a diaspora? Yeah, I'm asking the question, the diaspora, yeah, I'm asking the question.

Speaker 2: 29:50

There's a little fire truck going by. Hold on one second.

Speaker 1: 29:53

Okay, yeah, so that's the main.

Speaker 2: 30:02

No, go ahead. Can you restate this last part of that again?

Speaker 1: 30:06

So what I'm asking is being that we have cultural differences. How do we get past the cultural differences throughout the diaspora?

Speaker 2: 30:22

You know, I don't think it's as difficult as it might appear or how it can be, and it depends on your first-hand experience, what you experience inside your own home. What are the earliest introductions you get about your brothers and sisters from different parts of the world? What are the first seeds planted as an FBA or as an African-American? What are the first things you hear about West Indians or about your Jamaican brothers or brothers and sisters from the continent? Ok, let's take that and then take what your first interactions may be in throughout the community with the other brothers and sisters from different places. And it's so interesting the subject a similar subject came up and I have made a point that many of the department stores if you look at a dynamic that a lot of stores use in black communities they will hire African brothers to do the security or to check the doors or to check the bags. So their interaction with their first African-American interaction is what. It's not going to be, because what they're catching people doing what, or they're interacting with people that might interaction is what it's not going to be. It's because what they're catching people doing what, or they're interacting with people that might be doing what, or they have to conduct themselves in an opposing manner against the people. So that first, and then guess what, one of the other.

Speaker 2: 31:56

Now, I don't know what the dynamic is then, but definitely over 20 years or beyond a lot of times, the first occupational brother got that landed here from the continent or another part of the world was to drive a cab. Now, again, you're interacting with the public. Your first experiences and interactions are going to be with the public. Now, you know how many times cabs get beat. People jump out the cars and run. Interactions are negative. So your first cultural interaction oh man, this is how my brothers and sisters are here, and the brothers and sisters here, oh man, those Africans. And then so these little things that don't get smoothed over because on a very personal level, again, somebody's playing chess with this. They're putting these dynamics economically and even with the store, the security that is specific, to keep a level of division.

Speaker 2: 32:56

How do you pass? I haven't seen one. I guess it depends on the heart and the spirit you bring to their process, because there's not one. I mean, I haven't met any brothers and sisters from Australia. What's called Australia, that's a precious name, but from our they say Aboriginal. But the term Aboriginal. I've done some research and it has a negative that the original people to that land. But for her I've been, I've done a good bit of traveling people to that land, but for her I've been, I've done a good bit of traveling, so I've been to on their original land and I've met practically every group here in New York.

Speaker 2: 33:33

New York is an international town, so you move through New York you're going to come directly in contact and not just one state, because that's the other thing. We try to assess the people from one group. You might be fortunate enough that your socioeconomic standing, where you're only going to meet and interact with brothers and sisters, and that goes both ways from this, this sector of of living, and that can't be the whole picture you get of that culture, because every uh culture, society has variations of people doing very well, people doing not so well and people struggling. So whichever one part of that that you interact with, so many things can form your opinion and that you can use as a block to build a wall, or you take that same mortar and build a bridge. So again from the outset, when I, as I move through the community, if I see a black, I make contact with a black person. I'm nodding, I'm peace, I'm looking to build with you.

Speaker 2: 34:33

If I get an accent back, cool. If I don't, cool. But then I get a connection. If you connect them with me, then you're on the same vibe. I am the accent stuff and all that other stuff, never going to trip on that. So I mean, but then you got to come to it with that. But going back as I started, but if in your household it was okay to down this group or to down that group, and that goes both ways Some brothers and sisters get it before they get on the plane to get here. Watch them. African-americans don't associate with them. Bye, bye, bye. So again, we've been played against each other and given fed stereotypes about each other. So when we we miss out on opportunities to perform real brother and sisterhood and we need it now more than ever. Well, that's my impact into how I think it's not as big as we think. And for those who are willing and and we need you on there be willing to extend that hand and let's start building, because it's time. It's time.

Speaker 1: 35:32

Now, me personally, I would disagree, because I think that the conditioning, the social conditioning in each community is so deeply ingrained and we're not. I don't think we're really considering the differences in the upbringing. For instance, I grew up in New York city. When I'm walking, growing up in New York city, when, when you were walking by, when you were walking by someone, you would have to make sure you keep eye contact with that person, and that eye contact could mean a lot of different things, right, but nothing, I would say, more negative than it is positive.

Speaker 1: 36:15

So let's say, if now we're in a community full of people from different, uh, uh, parts of the diaspora, african diaspora and let's say, a Jamaican guy walks by me and he's staring me in the face right, staring me in the face, I go, yo bro, what you looking at, you know, like he doesn't understand that staring at me for a long period of time is basically like a sign of disrespect, right'm just make giving that example, because that's the conditioning that I. I had to like kind of find a way to break up, break away from. And I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that have that same kind of conditioning, coming from new york especially, but other people, um, and other communities may not, may not understand that or read you know, or read it, read it the way we read it, you get what I'm saying. So that's only one example. There are many different examples of, you know, cultural differences that could cause some serious conflict. So, yeah, I just wanted to state that.

Speaker 2: 37:22

Yeah, I can. Yeah, I see, I see I definitely understand. But I tell you, and again, growing up, you know we both share that girl, me, I'm, my growing up about a decade and a half earlier than yours, decades. But uh, in New York those are short-term man, like you said, the, the eye contact, how you shake hands, how men move around men, that's going to especially men during those ages, you know, from teens, early 20s, where you did that natural bumping of heads that occurs, but that has always ironed itself out. Again, let me speak from where my generation was with it and that was primarily Blacks and Puerto Ricans. That was the main group that you had to understand and come into a flow with and you're living in the same building with them. So then you're children, you're getting off school playing in each other's houses. So it depends on how early you get introduced to that other side. But the eye contact, the thing, that stuff gets worked out and I don't know one side works it out more than the other, but it gets worked out because certain things are universal, especially among men. Now, of course, subtly it can be different, but men and and when you know you got you moving, it gets worked out.

Speaker 2: 39:01

So I remember some of my earliest days. My earliest friend maybe knew two, three words of spanish. I'm sorry of english, but you know children, you get the. But you know children, you get the game. You use your head. No, you do what you got to do to connect and then they grow. Y'all grow together. You have experiences together and now the latter part, my 30s, 40s, especially here in Harlem.

Speaker 2: 39:25

The Dominican community borders right over here by Inwood, so that later in life I've had to understand and get that history with Haiti and a Dominican Republican and understand their dynamic, what what colorism has done to them and their understanding of being black. But yes, it's different. But if you're vested in building that bridge and not discounting nothing from you, discounting nothing from them, but understanding that if you both respectfully understand, you're more powerful together. And I understand that brothers and sisters in the South can unite with somebody who don't even see themselves as Black or find Black something that's offensive to them or something that they're trying to distance themselves from. We all are at different levels of trauma from this experience. So, yeah, some brothers are going to be deeper-headed, scarred in more harsh ways than others. But for those who are healed and are able to do the work. The work is here. I think we can have more success of those move moving from that perspective.

Speaker 1: 40:38

Now brother Amin Ross said we have a big problem with trusting one another, which stops us from uniting. You want to respond to that?

Speaker 2: 40:51

Yeah, yeah, trust. Trust, it definitely starts there. And and then part of what, like you said, how can you trust when there's miscommunication? You're reading, and they're reading, and, and it was already fragile to start with. So, um, and that's why building trust, we, we, if, if you look at the superhero, the savior, the courageous person, the more courageous acts, it ain't jumping in front of bullets and saving hundreds of people by some great feat, it's the greatest and most courageous thing is often reaching out, reaching out a hand, extending it. Because what are you risking? You're risking rejection. You're risking or it could be financial. You're risking losing money. You're risking something.

Speaker 2: 41:43

When you say you know what, I'm going to go with this brother, I'm going to go with this sister, I'm going to trust them on face value and do it in portions that work for you. Now I say across the board buy it, beware for everybody, at any time. I'm from New York, so I'm not saying, suspend your basic intelligence or suspend your instinct, but be willing to give a shot where you know if you went with the programming as our brother is reminding us you went with the conditioning, you wouldn't, you would automatically shut it down. You know what, this little spot. I'm going to try it, I'm going to go with it. Those little steps will build us that, plus having leadership that represents that on some level in their actions and in in what they're, uh, prognosticating for us, who is painting a picture of family that's going to bring us together on the global scale so we can get past all the little things that that divide us okay, okay.

Speaker 1: 42:43

so this is what I think should happen from my perspective. Right, just like when foreigners come from different countries here and they have to to get their visa, they have to do tests. Right, they have to do, they have to learn a little bit about the history and then they have to do tests on, like American history and things like that. I think that that should be, should be implemented in a group setting where we're pulling, we're galvanizing people to come together to unite. But here are the things that you have to do to join our, our unity party. If you will right, you got to watch a video about the history, the different mental conditions that we all face from different communities, and a study, a test.

Speaker 2: 43:53

Yeah, who can argue with that? But I mean again, now, that's kind of being able to codify a method, a kind of cookie cutter. Okay, this is a way of identifying and figuring out and even weeding out. You know, I don't want to look at no table. Oh, okay, this is a brother that's not interested in finding out about, so I can see that.

Speaker 2: 44:20

But then going back to what I said about it having to be something that's already in you even before you get to the assessment device and I can get to say, okay, I have traveled a bit when I travel. That's why you know friends that travel with me. They're like okay, I know what Herman's going to get ready to do. I'd like to see what the natives are doing. I'd like to see. I don't want to do the tourist stuff, I don't want to do the here and get that hat and this T-shirt and, oh, look at that and take a picture. Okay, get back on the bus. If there's enough time, I want to go to where my people are, to the black section of that place, and just move through. And I dress for it too. So I dress like the people. That's going to look.

Speaker 2: 45:09

And this happened to me in Brazil I spent. I was just moving, I'm moving, I'm moving quiet, I'm not really speaking, but I'm moving in a way that like I move, like I belong there, and then I was at this one area for maybe about an hour and a half. I said, oh, stunning, stunning sister. And I said I said I have to have a word or two with her and she looked stunned. She said I saw you. I didn't know you were a woman.

Speaker 2: 45:40

So the point I'm making is that you can't write down. They have a desire to want to see where those people are. Go where those people are, because you know you're one of them and they're one of you. So, so, uh, those. That's the energy that's going to drive this, okay, after we get it in place, okay, okay, fill this form out or answer these 50 questions. Or you know what's your blood type, what's your? I guess we can start screening and, but I don't know just like. In my eye, your heart is weighed against a feather. I don't know what's really needed to keep this thing sustained. And moving forward is something we can, we can write down. People have to demonstrate it in their actions and demonstrate it in their dealings with their people from different parts of the world their people from different parts of the world.

Speaker 1: 46:27

Right, I agree with you. My thing was more about if you are coming from another country and you're already brainwashed with an image and now you have a perception of how African Americans or so-called black people function, then you need to be retaught. You need to be retaught so when you come into the fold, we have material for you to watch and read and then just to make sure you comprehend, you're comprehending, you have a test and then after that, as you go along, we'll see in your ways and actions if it worked or not.

Speaker 2: 47:22

And now so I can get a full understanding. So this person is coming from another country to this country? Yes, okay, now, not just coming into the country. This person and we're speaking of a black person from a different part of the world, right, yes, sir, now they're in a country, but not just in the country, they're coming to the black community, right, okay now. Okay, now, the entry point, or the point where, where would we first make contact? This, I know, is still theoretical, but where, let's say, a person who is interested in? Okay, what do I got to do this? Where would we interact with them? Do we have a visiting station? Where would we? What body would be initiating this?

Speaker 1: 48:14

so it would be. Let's say, let's see if we can call it pan-africanism center for education. The pan-africanism center for education. This is a center for Africans of the diaspora to come in, get acquainted with the people of the land, the people of the states, by giving them like history lessons, giving them information. Giving them information to teach them exactly who we are, how we function, and just like a basic history lesson for them to understand who we are, to kind of change their perception to more of a positive one, so they don't come around us apprehensive and you know, conflict and things like that ensue it couldn't hurt.

Speaker 2: 49:20

It couldn't hurt. Uh, yeah, it's. It's. Eventually it's going to come down to one to one and how you move. But yeah, there was some way to organize it, but, but maybe in a non-official manner. That's happening with social media and that's why we won't even have time to touch on it. But that's what with guerrilla journalism journalism that that's what I feel. These platforms, our voices. We're now able to see and interact and measure reactions to world events and different topics in such a quick way, never before in our or even humankind, because this technology is specifically for us.

Speaker 1: 50:12

Your mic went off a little bit. Is it back up? No, it still sounds weird. Try again.

Speaker 2: 50:22

It went off one time before, so I had to go out and come back in.

Speaker 1: 50:27

Yeah, it's still off, it's still off. Okay, should I go out and come back in? Yeah, it's still off, it's still off. Okay, should I go out and come back in? Come back, yeah, yep, alright, I'll be right back, okay, yeah. So, ladies and gentlemen, my whole thing is Okay. Kudra said there is no black people anywhere else in the world. Laugh out loud. Only America, north America, everyone has Kujo. I understand your point as far as nationality and things like that, and I understand you know that is you're deeply ingrained in your mind and culture and things like that. But right now we're building on Pan-Africanism and that conversation. So if you want to build, be a bit more fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, peace.

Speaker 2: 51:17

Peace peace.

Speaker 1: 51:18

You hear me, king, I can hear you, but I can't see you.

Speaker 2: 51:23

Okay, yeah, the voice part is totally clear. Totally clear now, alright. So where do we leave off King care? Yeah, all right, the voice part is totally clear. Totally clear now, all right. So where do?

Speaker 1: 51:32

we leave off. So we were talking about we were having. I was making a point about bringing people into the fold and having you know, having them fill out things and learning more about the history, so they'll become more acquainted with who we are, just like we should become more acquainted with who they are Anyone coming from from the diaspora into our community.

Speaker 2: 52:07

Yeah, I mean, I'm in total, total agreement with that. And also I think a lot of it is event driven, again, not so much being able to be measured by an answer on a particular document, but events like the African Street Festival, events like Harlem Week, events like BAM down in Brooklyn, where a mixture of our culture, the West Indian Day Parade there are iconic timeframes where we're all together and that's even a good example. I mean I enjoy the different foods from the different lands, the bags, the handcrafts, the carvings, and you're dealing and doing business with brothers and sisters from different parts of the world. So we're exchanging commerce and networking and I look around and I can sometimes and you know most of the brothers and sisters they wear the African attire down there, so I can't tell who's. And you know most of the brothers and sisters they wear the African attire down there, so I can't tell who's who, because, guess what? Because we all won man Right, from the children to the 90-year-olds.

Speaker 2: 53:18

Can't tell, you know until you speak. Or sometimes you know our brothers and sisters from certain like Sudan, I mean some they just had this rich complexion or or some sisters from Ethiopia I find the women's. Their foreheads tend to be a little longer. It gives them this elegant look. So I'm not saying you can't tell distinctively, but is it a black family? Yeah, and all that other we can work out. We got to start at we are one and just keep building from that. Again, in my humble opinion, this is all coming from your brother's perspective, and I know there's others that may not be that willing or that eager. Again, back to trust. We've already touched all the points. It's a trust issue that takes trust. You know you don't see that as your brother, your sister, that it's hard for you to even have feelings like this. So we got to get back to loving and trusting each other.

Speaker 1: 54:15

Again, I yield, bro indeed, indeed, um, so on. On that note, we're about to click off. Thank you for coming out this evening. Uh, brother herman smalls, hope to have you up again and we'll go in more depth, because you have a lot of knowledge, a lot of experience and so, um, you know, we, we could really uh, uh, you know, open up in many different directions with, with, with different subjects and things like that, and you can really drop jewels for, uh, you know, maybe the younger people coming up, you know. So, uh, again, thank you for coming out this evening. I really appreciate you. Uh, thanks for everybody on the check-in coming out, watching and listening. Really appreciate you.

Speaker 1: 55:00

Hit the like, comment, share, subscribe. Also hit the bell notification button so you know when things are coming out, because we have content running all week. Next week, like this is like constantly, so make sure you keep it in touch with us. And also, nyptalkshow at gmail is the email if you want to ask a question and things like that. I got the emails, everybody out there. I'm just trying to get back to you guys, like, I've got like a lot of emails, so, but I will definitely keep in touch. Again, thank you for coming out this evening, brother Herman Smalls, and I will see y'all tomorrow peace and pan-Africanism Peace and Pan-Africanism Peace, peace.