Black Spades ♠️: The New Direction

Tiny, the former Supreme Spokesman of the Black Spades and founder of TBS New Direction, takes us on a profound journey through the streets of 1970s Bronx in this eye-opening conversation about one of New York's most misunderstood organizations.Born in Harlem Hospital and raised in the Bronx during the height of urban neglect and racial tension, Tiny reveals how the Black Spades emerged not as the gang portrayed in media, but as a community protection force. "These brothers came together to make a difference," he explains, detailing how the organization's founders had roots in the Nation of Islam and Black Panthers. With over 100,000 members in the Bronx alone, the Spades became a powerful response to both the heroin epidemic ravaging neighborhoods and the violent resistance to school integration.Perhaps most surprising is Tiny's account of the organization's diversity – with 40-50% Latino membership and even white and Chinese members from the projects. "We weren't discriminating if you came from our neighborhood," he shares, challenging simplistic narratives about street organizations. His personal journey from being "drafted" into the Spades to becoming Supreme Spokesman offers rare insight into the internal workings and evolution of the group.The conversation takes a fascinating turn as Tiny connects the dots between the Black Spades and the birth of hip-hop culture. His firsthand account of protecting Grandmaster Flash in the 1970s and witnessing the emergence of the Zulu Nation reveals how deeply intertwined these street organizations were with cultural movements that would change the world.Today, Tiny channels that same organizational energy into community service through TBS New Direction, working across cultural and religious lines to create opportunities for youth and returning citizens. "Words are more powerful than guns," he reflects, embodying his transformation from street spokesman to community leader.Email us at nyptalkshow@gmail.com to join the conversation and learn more about this vital but often overlooked chapter of New York City history.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:09

what's going on, everybody? It's ron brown lmt, the people's fitness professional, alongside my co-host mikey fever and this is a new yorker's perspective mikey fever's in the building.

Speaker 1 0:19

Good to see you, brother mikey fever. Yes, he was out, man, he out. Good to see you. We got the brother Tiny in the building. Founder of TBS New Direction. Tiny, I set you up this evening, man. This is only part one. This is only part one. This is only part one. We need a part two and we need a part three. We need a part two and we need a part three. So I want to start off, brother Tiny, I just want to let people know how we met. We met through the Brother Musa, sheikh Musa Dramik. From what is it? From Parkchester, right, yeah, from Parkchester, parkchester. And you know it was all about surrounding, like community work and things like that. And then, uh, I went to tiny's, um, uh, what was it? Um, public safety dinner, right. And then, oh, you remember that, damn, yeah yeah, you came.

Speaker 3 1:18

You came to the public safety dinner and you also came to one of our um, I think it was one of our one of our events Bookbag, or Christmas one of them. Or New Year's, one of the events we did.

Speaker 1 1:28

Yeah, it was a food give out, okay, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:31

Over there on Reverend Polite Boulevard.

Speaker 1 1:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, yeah. So I want people to know who you are, your history and things like that. So you, so you can run away with it. Where were you born and raised?

Speaker 3 1:51

Well, first of all let me thank you, brothers, for having me. I was born in Harlem, in Harlem Hospital. I was born in Harlem Hospital, but I was raised up on 142nd Street in Lenox Avenue before I moved to the Bronx in the 50s, early 60s. Really, that's where I was born, the old Harlem Hospital, you understand, on 135th Street, the old Harlem Hospital, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 2:24

Yeah.

Speaker 1 2:26

And now so you move from 142nd Street, which is for my hip hop fans. That's Big L's block, that's considered the danger zone. Cam Ron is from over there and all that, max B.

Speaker 3 2:40

Well, you had a lot of good brothers that come from over there. You understand the Sickles, you understand the 143rd Street crew. I was young, you know, when I moved out of there I went to public school. But a lot of these brothers from there that you have Lurch and Bobby and all these other different brothers you understand that grew up over time. You understand they got names for themselves one way or another. But Manhattan, money-making Manhattan, there's always money-making Manhattan. A lot of our good brothers come from that neighborhood.

Speaker 3 3:11

But I had a young sister she passed away now. Her name was Patty. She was born with muscular dystrophy and in 115, where we lived at in Harlem, right there on the corner 115. And we lived up on the top floor and she couldn't walk so we had to carry her up and down the stairs. So one year she got an invite to the Jerry Lewis Telephone and if I'm not mistaken which I don't think I am Jerry Lewis Telephone and if I'm not mistaken which I don't think I am she was the very first black female to be on the Jerry Lewis Telephone with muscular dystrophy and after hearing the story of how she had multiple operations and we had to carry her back and forth up and down the stairs. It was the Jerry Lewis Telephone people, whoever they got in touch with they got in touch with. They got us moved to the Bronx into the projects on the first floor.

Speaker 3 4:12

This is when we came up to Monhaven Project and it's down on 143rd Street, 143rd and Alexander Avenue, right across the street from Patterson Houses, you understand, with tiny yachts and all of that. You know the brothers grew up there. You know I ran broccoli but we moved there and that's where my journey began. You know I went to public school 49. From there I went to Clark Junior High School, where that's where, you know, I understand, my journey at Clark Junior High School really began as a member. You know, my journey in Clark Junior High School really began as a member of the Black Spades. You understand, like our organization is TBS that stands for the Black Spades. So my journey, my history, all started, you understand, from junior high school, clark Junior High School in the Bronx. You know, and I was in that school. You know, and I was in that school. I got shot on Easter Sunday, okay real quick.

Speaker 1 5:12

You just said I just got shot.

Speaker 2 5:14

You just slipped that right through, like yeah, I just got shot.

Speaker 3 5:19

Well, let me tell you something.

Speaker 1 5:20

What 16?

Speaker 3 5:22

I got shot in 1973 Easter Sunday. I was selling papers out. My grandmother lived, we lived on 142nd Street, my grandmother lived on 145th Street and I had family down there and that's what kept me coming back and forth to Manhattan, even while I was still in the Bronx. And one Easter Sunday, 1973, me and my sisters and my cousins, we were selling papers and I had my spade jacket on and one of the brothers from the and I thought I knew everybody down there. But you never know who you don't know. Found out later these people knew me, but we're not going to go into that. But anyway, he wanted to take my jacket and I refused to give up my jacket. So I got and that's like 40, 50 years ago damn.

Speaker 2 6:10

I have a question, though, right, how old were you?

Speaker 3 6:13

then I was um.

Speaker 2 6:14

I think I was about 16, 16, 16 years old yeah, I have a question before, before you got shot, before you wore the jacket, what was the climate like in the 70s? We see it on television New York was run down. Were you introduced to any? Because on this podcast we was asked were you introduced to any school of thoughts like Nation of?

Speaker 3 6:35

Islam. Well, when I was growing up, growing back to Harlem when I was growing up, that's when Martin Luther King was killed. You understand, you know, a lot of our black leaders were killed. You know, and I wasn't introduced, my family didn't have any history or any type of relationship to the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers. It wasn't until I joined the space that I was introduced to the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers. It wasn't until I joined the space that I was introduced to the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers. The founders I'm not a founder. I am one of the original members from the 70s, but I'm not a founder because the founders came in the late 60s. The founders of the Black Panthers I mean founders of the Black Space. Their parents' roots come from the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers. I mean founders of the Black space. Their parents' roots come from the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers and that's how the space was put together. It was never, ever, ever, and I repeat, ever, ever to be a gang. These brothers came, david, you understand David, you understand Khalid. You understand Bam Bam. These brothers came together to make a difference in the community. Oh, you understand Khalid, you understand Bam Bam. These brothers came together to make a difference in the community Because, as you know, back in the 70s and coming into the 80s, it was the dope epidemic.

Speaker 3 7:54

There wasn't no cracking and that stuff. This was all the dope, you understand, and you had your little minor robberies, but not only that. A lot of people fail to hear, fail to realize. In the 70s and 80s it was a real race war. Now I'm going to call it a war because all the schools that's up in the North Bronx, lehman, orlando, a lot of schools, high schools that I'm speaking in today, talking about Truman, truman, and I'm living in the Truman area there ain't more black people up here. So we had a race war going on for the schools. It wasn't on the, you know, it only spilled out on the street if you came to the neighborhood. There was a time we could not walk on Fortin Road. There was a time I live up in the Co-op City area of the block we couldn't walk up here. And there's places up here now that still don't want you to walk up here because of the color of your skin. And these schools Roosevelt, you understand Roosevelt, the bad, the Truman Kennedy all these schools were white and they did not want us. And that's how black space really got a lot of their reputation, because a lot of our members and a lot of people that we love sisters and brothers and friends was going to these schools and they was getting beat up and we used to go to these schools and we used to fight. I mean, we used to fight.

Speaker 3 9:29

Now, today people call it integration. We don't know who started it, we don't know. We came in more and more and more. I'm not going to say that the Spades integrated anything, but we came up there and put on a hell of a fight to let people know who we were and that we wasn't going to stand tolerating that nonsense. So you know, that's how I was introduced to the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers, not to be a member, but the familiarity of who they were because of the founders of the space. They never wanted us to be a gang, they just wanted to stop the robbery, stop the drugs in their community up in the Soundview section of the Bronx. They had brothers that came from different parts of the Bronx how they hang out being black Brothers just joined. The next thing you know. The next thing. You know the numbers was astronomical, you understand. There was over 100,000 spades in the Bronx alone 100,000 spades in the Bronx alone, 100,000 spades.

Speaker 3 10:28

That's wild Over 100,000 spades in the Bronx alone. You understand, we dominated all five boroughs, but the Bronx is the home Now.

Speaker 1 10:42

Wait before you go. When the spades were around other, what other gangs were around at that time? Okay, you had.

Speaker 3 10:51

You had the skulls, you had the bachelors, a lot of other gangs, a lot of gangs. Okay, let's say you live there, I live here, we all spades. But one day somebody on your block of a big status, a big homie on your block of a big status, a big homie on your block, after they call me big homie. So I'm going to say big homie on your block, say, listen, man, I want to be like this. And if he had the numbers, you would join. Whatever he came, whatever name he came up with, the Pearls, the Saigon. You understand, these are a lot of brothers in the space, but they turn over. And we had the Xing Ling Nomads, we had the Savage Girls, we had the Bachelors, we had the Reapers, we had a majority of Spanish gangs, but you know a lot of us. We fought each other in the beginning and then there was an alliance because we realized, you understand, that fighting each other wasn't doing nothing but killing each other. And we all had one big enemy the white gangs. And when I say the white gangs, and I say it wherever I'm at and I say it in front of, and I say it whoever, you understand the white gangs. We also fought their parents, the police and their mothers and their fathers, because that's what it was. We were on their block. They all came against us, you know. So you know it was just a systemic racist thing at that time. A lot of people won't say it because a lot of people wasn't exposed to it, but anybody who went to these schools in the 70s and 80s all the schools that you heard me say earlier they knew what it was like to be black and up in these neighborhoods. And you know you ever look at that movie, the Bronx Tale. Yeah, yeah, okay, that was someone's.

Speaker 3 12:41

Do you know that there was a bus that used to come through Arthur Avenue? That came from Evander? No, not Evander, roseville or Evander, I think it was Roseville. That's up there near White Castle. They used to come through there. You know they had to change the bus because the white folks over there and you can do your history, go on Google and see for yourself there was a number of bus I can't tell you what it was that used to come through there. They had to change the buses. I don't know if MTA changed it or the white community going through Arthur Avenue. They did not want the black kids coming through their neighborhood. They literally changed the buses.

Speaker 3 13:20

So you know you guys are younger than me. I'm going on 70 years old. Damn. Six months, I'll be damn, there's 70. Damn. But anyway, you know. There's a lot of things that I was exposed to. And to answer the brother question me myself, I was never affiliated with the National If-Nam or the Black Panthers, but when I became a member of the Black Spades it was taught to us why the spades came about.

Speaker 1 13:49

Now. So the spades came about because there was a race war, you said.

Speaker 3 13:54

It wasn't so much of a race war. Okay, when the spades came about in Soundview, it was about protecting their community through the drugs the heroin, because back in the 70s it was an drugs the heroin, Because back in the 70s and 80s it was an epidemic of the heroin. But they also came together because we fought in these schools. There's a lot of times that I went up to Rosalind Evander, not Evander Okay, I got to get it straight, I'll get it. But there's a lot of times we went up to schools to fight because we had friends and family. We didn't know that we was, we didn't know that we was changing anything. We just went up there to protect our space, our friends, but, but, but.

Speaker 3 14:34

But today, as I sit and I talk to you, I realize it was a race war. And I'll say it was a race war, you understand. And it was a race war because these schools did not want blacks in it. They did not want blacks, they didn't want blacks at all.

Speaker 3 14:50

But as time changed, you see how, as time will go on and go on, blacks, a lot of blacks and a lot of Hispanics came into these schools and stuff like that. They couldn't help to change, because over time come change. But in the beginning we did have to fight and there's a lot of people you understand that the police don't say the news don't say that was hurting these schools when we were younger, because we had to fight to survive in these schools. So space didn't come about because we were trying to change things. We came about because we went to fight and we were one of the leading groups to go up to these schools. Now other groups wanted to, but we went to almost every school to fight because we had friends and relatives and families in all these different schools throughout the Bronx.

Speaker 1 15:42

So I didn't know. The space actually started in Soundview. I had no idea. So now that's some history right there. Hold on, oh, where's my bomb? My bomb is. Hold on, let me get the main effect. There we go, there we go.

Speaker 2 16:01

It sounded like the Warriors movie the way you described it.

Speaker 1 16:06

Yeah, so what was your position in the spades and how did you get that? How did you get your like if you had a top position, if you reached your top position, how did you get there?

Speaker 3 16:16

Well, I can't lie to you, brothers, and we did a documentary and the documentary is three years in the making. Why so long, don't ask me, but I let the world know and I let you know. I used to run. The spades came around, drafted people. I ran. I was more afraid of my mama than the spades. I ran. And one day they got comments, and I'm going to say it. They got comments, since Every time they would chase me. And I'm going to say it. They got comments, since Every time they would chase me I'd run this way and went straight to the building and got in the house. So one day they put people in front of the building and they chased me, but this time they had people in front of the building and I couldn't get in. And they caught me. I was drafted into the space. It wasn't something that I woke up and said I wanted to be a part of.

Speaker 1 17:08

Before you. Before you continue, I just want to let the audience know, because normally the audience they're used to five percenters more as a nation of Islam, the tiny it was a part of, or how can I say is a part of, or I would say of, was a part of, or how can I say is a part of, or I would say of, was a part of in the past. The black speeds. The black speeds, the black speeds was a gang in New York that came about around what? What time period?

Speaker 3 17:37

They came about around the sixties, the late sixties, all the way up to the, all the way up to the eighties, yeah, up to the 80s.

Speaker 1 17:46

Now my audience, the Black Spades. Later on, I'm going to say for lack of a better term for my audience to get it kind of morphed into Zulu Nation.

Speaker 3 17:59

Well, yes and no.

Speaker 1 18:02

Let's not give them that yet. Let's not give them that. But basically, black Spades and Zulu Nation has a history together and Zulu Nation has a great influence on hip-hop culture in New York City. That's like the foundation. So just to let everybody know, bring everybody up to speed. So now you said they chased you and then you got recruited. No, they drafted you, they drafted him.

Speaker 3 18:30

You know, usually when they wanted somebody they'd go draft him. He had to fight and all that stuff. But they chased me for about two months and, you understand, I didn't think they had common sense because I did the same type of running every day Zoom, zoom, zoom, left, right, zoom. So when they finally caught me they said you ain't got to walk no line, you drafted. So I got drafted into the space and I started off as a member like everybody else. You understand, and Patterson Projects on 143rd was the headquarters, the 14th Division of Black Space. I understand my president's name was John Jones, I was under his leadership and I was there with them for a while.

Speaker 3 19:10

After a while, after about six, seven months, there was another division called the 17th Division of Black Spades. They was on Brook Avenue. They got into a big war with the Latin gangs down there and what happened was they had a clubhouse down there and this was one time that the clubhouse, the Latinos, they just burned the whole building. So they got burned out. So what they did was they moved into practicing projects with us. Now they was a powerful, powerful. The 17th Division was a powerful division. When you say nutty people, all the nuts that came from the nut house was in the 17th Division was a powerful division. When you say nutty people, all the nuts came from the nuthouse was in the 17th Division. So they joined up with us for a while and then, after a while I mean we did a lot of fighting when the 17th came about. So what happened was the president of the 17th became the supreme commander of, not of all spades, but of the South Bronx. He became the supreme president of the South Bronx. The spades were so big that that monk, who was supreme of all spades, gave Coke the title of Supreme of the South Bronx.

Speaker 3 20:28

So now I'm in the 14th. Now I had moved over. I come out of Mount Haven. Around that time I was president of the Mount Haven chapter. We had a chapter in Mount Haven, we had a chapter in Millbrook, we had a chapter in Jackson, we had a chapter up in Morehouses. So we had these different chapters and when the 17th came in, instead of now doing all these chapters, they just combined one division. We all became the 17th Division of Black Space and I was raised by my mother. No father would my mother and my mother raised me. You understand that words were more powerful than guns, even though guns kill. You understand, but words you understand. Words of men stick around. They remember us when we killed, but they remember their words the most.

Speaker 2 21:26

So I mean I knew it.

Speaker 3 21:28

I wasn't one of those brothers. You understand that jumped up and wanted to fight all the time and do this and do that. And I'm not ashamed to say I didn't want to fight. What I do today is what I did back then. So what happened was Colt brought me into the main we were all 17, but there's like a main body and he brought me into the main body and he gave me a title.

Speaker 3 21:52

I became Supreme Spokesman of the whole South Bronx because I was in the Supreme Division and he made me spokesman. That means that at that time he would send me. I talked to the police, I talked to any different gang groups, whatever. I was the person that he sent out and the reason why he chose me because he knew that if I came back and said we had to go to war, he knew it was serious. If I came back and said to him man, we don't need to fight these brothers, we need to make an alliance, or we need to stop this or we need to stop that. He took it for gospel and he believed me because he knew my mind wasn't set on destroying, my mind was set on building. Knew my mind wasn't set on destroying. My mind was set on building. So I became my last position in the space.

Speaker 3 22:45

I became spokesman of the South Bronx through the 17th because I came from a Supreme building. It gave me that title. I came from a Supreme division. It gave me that title Supreme spokesman of the South Bronx. I did not speak for every state, only in the South Bronx area where Coke was Supreme President of the South Bronx. But Coke was one of those beautiful brothers to where people from Brooklyn, staten Island, upper Bronx, they all came and they all gravitated to him because he was a nice and he was a gentle giant but he was also a beast. When he had to be a beast he also knew that if I had to fight I'd fight. There was no problem about me just speaking and not fighting. It's like he gave me that position. So that was the position that I had as spokesman for the South Bronx.

Speaker 1 23:41

Got you. Got you Check, check, check. Good answer, got it Thorough.

Speaker 2 23:46

Before you go, boy, ron, as I'm listening to your story. It's very deep and compelling. There was a documentary I watched years ago called 80 Blocks from Tiffany. Is it similar to that? Does it get into the? I can't say. I recalled it. You don't remember 80 Blocks from Tiffany? It's about old gangs in New York they spoke about, you know.

Speaker 3 24:05

Well, you know, okay, I'm out of the South Bronx and the original members and a lot of other divisions up in the North Bronxx and you know things like that. So a lot of times we all joined together, we had monthly meetings where we, where every division, came together. That's why I could tell you there was over 103 divisions in the bronx alone and, um, we came together. But a lot of us did a lot of different things and I'll explain to that to you in a minute. Because up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up up. Black Pearls and the Peacemakers you see that took place up there. That didn't take place. Now we had a peace. We was in St Mary's Park. We had a peace meeting down there, but it wasn't as popular as the one uptown where the treaties were signed, because all the main divisions up there got together and it was in there for that peace treaty.

Speaker 3 25:22

Now, when we was in St Mary's Gym down there. We had the Bachelors, we had a few ghetto brothers, the Spades At that time. We had Black Magics, a few other people. We came together but we didn't have a lot of press and a lot of things like that down there covering our things and they had to press up there. So when they had the peace treaty, it was up there. I wasn't a part of that. We had our area, they had their area, but we came together if those areas had to fight. I was one of the representatives that put the 17th together with the education of Sonny Carson. I was sent to negotiate with a few other brothers. This is the first time when I sat down with Champ and Wine. Champ was the Supreme President of the Tomahawks and Wine was the Supreme President of the Jolly Stompers.

Speaker 3 26:18

And Sonny Carson has passed away now but he tried to bring the gangs together for to put together his movie, which I think y'all might have seen the Education of Sonny Carson classic we was in that and I coached him to represent that and I went and spoke and we was in that and Coach sent me to represent that and I went and spoke and I got us in that. Also the Warriors when they sent me out as a spokesman and I spoke for my area. We got a lot of brothers in the Warriors but we got kicked out of everything. They kicked us out of everything. We went to Brooklyn and we went to fight Because you know it's that macho stuff. You ain't saying nothing to me, brother, you're going to talk different and you know people are going to talk the way they talk. But because we came from the Bronx and they was from Brooklyn, we had to just it was a thing where we just going to let them know where we come from. So we got kicked out of.

Speaker 3 27:11

To Sonny Costner we had some very important roles but I think more or less the producers were scared of us because there was a scene where there was a hell of a big fight and only God spared people life because nobody was killed or really hurt, but it was a lot. It was a huge fist fight and when they sent us back to the Bronx they did. Don't bring them back, don't bring them back, please don't bring them back, don't bring him back, please don't bring him back. So that's when you know. But we were in that, we were in that and if they didn't kick us out, I had a major speaking role in that my brother Bo. My brother Bo was playing one of the brothers near Sonny Carson and now the Warriors. We just got that part. We were just part of the scenery. You see, we were part of the scenery because my godmother you could also Google this Her name was Marion Rose.

Speaker 3 28:02

She was one of the first black district leaders in the South Bronx. She got us involved and I spoke with her project, even as a black spade it was called Project Justice, and I spoke, spoke, I did a lot of speaking with her. Jose serrano, one of our first um um district leaders too. I she introduced me to a lot of these people, you understand, when I was younger. So she got us involved with a lot of things as being one of the first black district leaders in the south Bronx, you know. So a lot of things came to her and she, of course, she brought it to me being my godmother, and I got the spades involved.

Speaker 2 28:43

Okay, little boy.

Speaker 1 28:44

Okay, I want to Remember that right. Yo we got Urban. What is this? Just the studios? I have a question. It was said that there were Puerto Ricans in the spades from the beginning. Is that accurate?

Speaker 3 29:06

Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Let me break it down. You got to remember we came from NYCHA houses where black, puerto Rican Chinese all lived together. Because you was Puerto Rican, you didn't join the Puerto Rican gang.

Speaker 3 29:26

I was in one of the first Puerto Rican gangs before I was a black spade, you understand, and it was called the Green Barrettes and they came out of my junior high school before I became a black space. I was only in it for about maybe six or seven months, but I was. I was the only black that didn't understand a word of spanish, and I still don't, but I knew when to run. That's all I need to know. And I knew when to. You could tell by the language when to fight and you could tell by the language when to run. And in the South Bronx, where we came out of I was in my haven projects and we had white space. We had a Chinese space Okay, I don't know if Chet is still alive, mickey is gone. We had black space.

Speaker 3 30:18

There was at least about 40, 50 percent Latinos in the black space the bachelors, that's an all Hispanic gang. They had blacks. So it wasn't like because you had a Latino gang or you had a black gang. Now, we wasn't in the white gangs, none of us. So you can forget that. But it's not like you was in a black gang or a white gang that you didn't have. If you was in a Latino gang, you didn't have no blacks, or you was in a black gang you didn't have no Latinos.

Speaker 3 30:48

All these gangs was mixed and we had Puerto Ricans, we had whites, matter of fact, soundview there was brothers that was white, that came out of Soundview Because you remember, we coming out of NYCHA housing, we coming out where we grew up before the gangs even came about, we growing up with friends who were our next door neighbors. Chad lived in my building. Mickey, who was Chinese, lived down the block. They were Chinese. In the black space there was only was Chinese lived on the block. They were Chinese. In the black space there was only one white, but he still was Chinese. We had about four or five whites that came out of Mount Haven. That was in the black space. We had a bunch of brothers that were Latinos that came out the black space.

Speaker 1 31:31

You said 40-50% Latino.

Speaker 3 31:36

I would say 40-50% were Latinos. That was in the black space, I don't doubt it.

Speaker 1 31:41

I don't doubt it either.

Speaker 2 31:44

Grew up in the same community. That's why I find it very odd when people try to say Latinos were not part of hip-hop, especially Puerto Ricans. That's BS.

Speaker 3 31:51

They were there, you know, when we go into hip-hop I'm going to go into that because that's a whole different scenario but during the gang days, every gang, every gang had Blacks in it. If you was Latino, they had Blacks in it. If you was Black, we had Latinos in it. And if you came from our neighborhood, there was no discrimination. And even though we fought the white gangs gangs, we had white people in our gang.

Speaker 3 32:19

We had white boys in our gangs that came out of my projects, but they put on them jackets. They fought like we fought. So there was white boys. You understand, I can't talk about everybody else, but I will say that there was whites. When we had four whites that came out of my building in Mount Haven on 143rd and Willis Avenue and when I was told we had about one or two I'm not going to put numbers on it a couple of whites that came out of Soundview. So we did have these gangs were integrated. Now we didn't have more Puerto Ricans than we had whites in a black gang, and the Spanish gang had more blacks than they had Latinos, but we were integrated.

Speaker 1 33:05

Right, gotcha, that's a check. Now you became a spokesman for the South Bronx. Okay, now, what year was this and what was the journey from that point?

Speaker 3 33:22

Well, the journey from that point I got shot in 1972, 73. 72? 1972 I got shot and I became, spoke, took over and I became in 73. So after that I mean everything that we talked about was doing that journey I went, I went, I went away. I went to jail in 1974 and I and I did, I did one and a half to three. I came back home in 1976.

Speaker 1 33:51

What did you go to jail for?

Speaker 3 33:53

Oh boy, a number of things. Uh, basically a number of bunch of weapons. My thing was weapons and shootings. When they say gang members went to jail for robbery, you know what their robberies was?

Speaker 2 34:08

What's that?

Speaker 3 34:09

It wasn't even taking your money, but taking another brother's jacket, because jackets was trophies to us.

Speaker 3 34:17

So I had, I've had a number of firearms arrests and and one or two robberies, but basically firearms and um, today I filed for a certificate of relief, you understand, so that, uh, I could have my, my record expunged because of all the things that I'm doing now and as of right now. In the next four or five weeks I will hear if they grant my request because I just today, just finished my investigation Today and I just hope and pray because I want to go into politics, even at my age, and I want my fire on because I have put together black space security services. I can't put my name and stuff on a lot of papers right now because it's woodwork, but once they have plunged my record, I'll be able to put my name on all my creations. Right now I have to go to other people on my creations. Right now I have to go through other people, but when my name is cleared I'll be able to put my name on everything that I create.

Speaker 1 35:24

Now you get out and you do a one to three, one and a half to three, okay. So now you did one and a half, yeah, okay. And then you get out. And then what's the next step?

Speaker 3 35:38

When I came home, the games was basically actually the games was over. You had a few diehards that still walked around when I came home. Now it was called Cruz and when I came home, my little brother, god bless his soul. His name was Peanut. He was in charge of the Casanova crew and I used to be around him off and on, but I didn't want to be around because I just came home and I wasn't trying to be around them.

Speaker 3 36:05

Young boys. Then my same godmother, marion Rose. She came to me and you're going to laugh at this one. She came to me. She said, tanya, I need you to do me a favor. She brought this little skinny kid with her. She said I need for you and your people to protect them. I said I'm not into that, no more, I'm Godmother. She said Tiny, you know, I know you. You know, I know you. She brought Grandmaster Flash to me. That's who he was. It was Grandmaster Flash Because at that time that's when they played music in the parks and they had little, they didn't have a lot of, they didn't have music in the park and in the houses and things like that People was coming in, robbing the sets and doing things like that. So she said to me I want you to look out for him.

Speaker 3 36:56

And this was 1976 when I met grandmaster flash. She said I want you to make sure that's when I came home and I was home for a little bit. I want you to watch this boy and protect him. I never knew their relationship. So at that time the casanova crew was run by Peanut and at that time and the Casanova crew was one of the biggest Casanova crew come from the space too, along with Zulus. So most of the Casanovas were baby space. So we put them under our wing and we protected them. We made sure he never got robbed and all that thing. I wind up working with Grandmaster for Flash for about when they went up, until I went to Sylvia and they went to Sylvia and I met him in 76. They went to Sylvia in the 80s, late 80s, early 90s.

Speaker 3 37:47

One of the two I was with Flash when he was three MCs him, creole and his brother and then it was the four MCs. Okay, it was three MCs, four MCs and then the Furious Five, it was Melly Mel, his brother, kid Creole. The three MCs it was three, not two, but three Cowboy, melly Mel and Kid Creole. Then they brought in Mr Ness. Mr Ness came along when they was in 18th Park. Then came Raheem, and Raheem was a part of the with Shah Rok. He was part of Fearless Furious 4. I forgot what it was. Please forgive me, but he was part of Shah Rok and the team. Then, all of a sudden, he joined Flash and his team and that's when they became the Furious Five.

Speaker 3 38:41

Now you made a statement before about Puerto Ricans and hip-hop. I'm going to make this statement and I'm going to make it a live statement. There were Puerto Ricans in hip-hop, but it wasn't that many. You can count them Charlie Chase, oc and there was Latin Brothers. But when you say hip-hop, there was a bunch of kids. There wasn't no race there and people will get offended. There was more blacks than anything else. So this wasn't a Latin culture, this was a Black culture.

Speaker 3 39:24

But you got to remember that Latinos hung out with the Blacks. We didn't have no Jamaican music back then in our area. You might have. You went into a Jamaican area. You heard it. Okay, there wasn't a lot of Spanish speaking groups going on. Now, when they start getting on the Latin hustle and all that, you start hearing more and more and more. But when you came to these parties, then after a while some parties played some Latin music they didn't know if somebody, but these things was all Black-coordinated. When I say Black-coordinated, it wasn't like it was orchestrated to just be blacks. Anybody could have got it.

Speaker 3 39:59

But it wasn't a lot of Latinos in MCs or DJs. Yes, you had some Right now. Charlie Chase, to me, was one of the biggest ones, but I don't think he made too many records or maybe didn't make a record, but nobody pays him any mind, but he's one of the first Latinos OC. They had Spanish brothers, that was MCs, but this was basically, like I said, a Black-oriented thing. And I'm going to say this was a youth thing and it didn't have no color. Yes, there was more Blacks than Puerto Ricans, but this was a youth thing and it didn't have no color. Yes, there was more blacks than Puerto Ricans, but this was a youth thing. The youth put this together. Now, when you came to the breakdancing and when you came to the graffiti, you still you had black and Spanish. Now Latinos started taking over, but you had a lot of blacks. That was breakdancing. Then all of a sudden, everybody got involved. You start seeing more Latinos than blacks when it came to breakdancing and things like that.

Speaker 3 41:03

And I heard you say a minute ago where Africa Bambaataa, africa Bambaataa, and I knew, as far as I was concerned, okay, he was a Spade up from the South Bronx, not from the Soundview section of the Bronx, and we didn't fight together. We didn't go to no wars together. He was all right with me. He created the Zulu nation. A lot of our Spade brothers, a lot of my Spade brothers, were with him. Bam Barter put together a dynamic organization. I'm not going to go into anything other than that. I'll give him his credits of putting together a dynamic organization.

Speaker 3 41:46

But back in the 70s the Casanovas and the Zulus all came from spades. They were the two most powerful crews. Now we had the nine crews. The nine crews was powerful and some of the nine crews were black spades. Actually, brother, a lot of the crews, the stick-up kids and all that a lot of them came from the spades. But the Zulus and Casanovas were the two most powerful crews in the South Bronx. Zulus and Casanovas were the two most powerful crews in the South Bronx and the Zulus were Bambata and Mario and Casanovas was Flash, was never robbed. Anytime there was any fighting. We did it, zulus did it for theirs, we did it for ours. They were the two most powerful crews in the South and they don't get the recognition. Zulus get it, but Casanovas don't get the recognition because, you know, castellanos don't get the recognition because Flash has never been robbed and never been hurt and these were.

Speaker 3 42:41

We stayed with them up until they went to Sylvia Robinson and we stayed with them for a little while and they didn't. I mean me and Flash got along very well. You know, I got along with the MC's too. We all had our own macho thing, but we all got along. But Sylvia Robinson didn't want the Casanova crew because, see, we got paid, we got paid, we got paid and we got hired. There's not a promoter and listen to what I'm saying to you there's not a promoter, a DJ, mc, graffiti artist, breakdancers from the 70s that don't know who I am. All my organization, the Casanova crew, and whether they like me or they don't like me, they know who I am. But that's back then and we move forward. And today we're doing bigger and better things.

Speaker 3 43:36

And I still use the Spade names because, like I said, my brothers, our elders of the Spades, never created the Spades to be a gang. They never created it to be a gang. They wanted to be a group of brothers that came together that protect their neighborhood, protect the sound room section of the block, and fight. We call it racism now, we call it racism to them too, but fight the racism that was in front of our eyes in our schools because, like I said, a lot of said a lot of brothers you understand a lot of brothers. You understand below 30, don't even know the fight that took place and how not only just the Spades, but other gangs, latino gangs how they all had to go into these schools. I say we took a major role because we fought in every school.

Speaker 1 44:32

Every school. I say we took a major role because we fought in every school. Now I want to say this to Urban XG Studios we have an email it's the name of the show at gmailcom. It's the name of the show nyptalkshow at gmailcom. You can email us and we'll give you an hour to explain all of this.

Speaker 1 44:58

Another thing I want to say is that we will soon have an in-person podcast, and that in-person podcast in the studio we're going to have someone there who's like, I would say, a legendary martial artist named Jerry Fontenay, who's like a, I would say, a legendary, uh, martial artist named jerry fontenaz, who's also a breaker, so he would know, and he's puerto rican, so he would know the history, you know, I mean. Well, he's about to be 60 years old, so he's another generation though, uh, but you know he, he would be, he will, he'll. I will have him explain all of that as well. As far as, as far as break dancing, because you said, uh, breakers and, uh, you said graffiti artists. Uh, to the. To the guy in the chat yeah, um, go ahead, marion, my bad tiny yeah, well, you know.

Speaker 3 45:47

If we're going back to the breakers and graffiti artists, let me tell you something. You know. You know at first it was a lot of black but everybody got involved with that, just like a lot of Latinos, with the break dancing, you know, and the graffiti, you understand there was a lot of. I'm just trying to remember. You've got to remember my mind. I don't remember a lot of these brothers. You're going back to the 70s, but we had a lot of. We had Lava who, but we had a lot of. We had Lava who was a spade who has passed away. He was one of the biggest graffiti artists. We had Stay High. You understand Stay High must be hit every rock, every bridge in the city of New York. Back then he became, he was public enemy number one to the police. He was going upstate hitting rocks places. Just what is he doing up here? Stay high was good. So you know these great graffiti artists. Today they do, they're doing their thing.

Speaker 3 46:44

I stopped getting involved with a lot of things around about oh, after I left Flash and when they went to Sylvia Robertson in the 90s. I just fade out from everything. I really didn't believe in rap, okay, and basically, I was in it, you understand. I got my little. I put them little brothers together, I polished them up and I made them into one of the most powerful security groups in the Bronx and we got paid. But after we left Flash, I didn't have no interest and I'm not, you know.

Speaker 3 47:15

I went on to a whole lot of different things, and it wasn't until 2014 that I decided to leave the streets alone. I came out the street late, but I decided to leave this alone, leave that alone. I never went back to jail, though, that's for sure. So I haven't been to jail since 1984. I was 86 when I came home in 86, but my last arrest was 84. I have not been arrested since then, so you know.

Speaker 3 47:45

And then in 2014, I decided I was tired. I was 50-something years old. I was tired of the streets, tired of what I'm going through. I've been with my wife for 44 years. She's a former correction officer. She put up with my mess, I put up with my mess, my kids put up with my mess. I just woke up and said to myself it's time I went back to school. I got my Bachelor of Arts degree. I went back for a little while, you understand Metropolitan College, where I want to go back to to get my master's.

Speaker 3 48:16

But between that I started a mentoring program, TBS New Direction, black Spades in a New Direction. I'm the president of Black Spades Security Services. I put the Black Spades Security Services together because a lot of our young brothers and sisters don't understand, even though they got records, they can still work for a security company. They can't be a guard and no one can be a guard without a license. But there's things you can do. You can drive a vehicle and go out and make sure people's on their job. You can't be a guard, but you can do these things. See, and this is things that that I've learned on my journey of all, my journey of trying to be successful in life. And TBS new direction is a 501 C three organization but we don't get. We don't get no money from nobody because, see, I still take my concept from the spades as being one of the largest street gangs in the city of New York.

Speaker 3 49:19

Where we go where we want to go, I go into different places. You understand how I met you coming up there. You understand the St Raymond's Church and doing here and going there, I go where we need to go to meet people, to network, and if I was getting funded by anybody, they don't want us to go With the food. You came out with us with the food. We was on Jackson. We was on Reverend Polite Boulevard on 77th Street. We was in St Mary's. We was in Mott Haven. We was in Patterson Well, we wasn't in Mott Haven, please forgive me, but we was in Patterson. We was in Mitchell. We was on Cypress. We was on Reverend Polite. We was up on 222nd. We was giving out food wherever we need to go, but when people's giving you money, you can't go nowhere but their district and I want to be able to work in the districts where we needed boots on the ground.

Speaker 3 50:10

Now, right now, we're working with a lot of different people. I'm working with the Bangladesh. I'm working with the Yemenis. I'm working with the African community. I'm working with the Church of Scientology, which a lot of people consider them a cult. I don't. They got a lot of things going on. I don't know nothing about their inner business, but I know about their way to happiness. I understand which I am an ambassador for their way to happiness. I know about their drug-free zone, you understand, and their human rights. I've even been down to the UN to speak on human rights because of them. I work with the Yemenis, the Bangladesh, the Africans. Me and you met Brother Brown with Sheikh Moussa Drummond. Sheikh Moussa is an African that was trying to put all the gangs together but he had a few, and him and I stuck together like white on rice because I've been with him since 2000. Oh my God, since 2017. I've made more alliances. I've worked with the Jewish community. You understand the Arab community. I've been places. You understand that most of us.

Speaker 3 51:24

I got brothers that come home from jail and they say yo, Tiny, you doing this. And I take them along. They say, oh man, brother, we never thought we'd be doing this. But, like I always told them and my mind has always been moving, I've always been creative. My mother always said to me you're very creative, you just have to keep your mind going in the right place, not the wrong place.

Speaker 3 51:46

And I've always wanted to work with people. I've always believed you understand, like I said earlier, you understand words are more powerful than guns. Guns can kill you yes, they're powerful, but words are stick. You understand. A gun can kill you, take your life, but words are stick you with a person, no matter what. When we think of Martin Luther King, we think of I have a dream. Yes, we know he's dead, but we think more of I have a dream. Yes, we know he's dead, but we think more of I have a dream, and I'm not trying to be him or anybody else. I want to be me, but I want to be someone, and this is why I brought TBS New Direction back the Black Spades and the New Direction.

Speaker 3 52:25

I wanted to create the legacy that my elders tried to put together but did not put there. A lot of those elders are still alive today. A lot of them are principals, a lot of them have very good jobs, but, you know, they, they left. They left things alone because of the positions that they're in their hearts are still there, but they because now they got big families and things like that. See, I didn't leave the streets until, like, I was 57 years old. So I said to myself there's got to be a better way Selling drugs, taking drugs and all that other good stuff. You understand, it's got to be a better way, and that's why I created TBS New Direction Black Spades in a New Direction, because now, since 2014 to the day I work with police. You know I couldn't stand them. I don't know and I tell them in their face I couldn't stand them.

Speaker 3 53:19

I did the churches. I don't care nothing about them. But now I'm in the church, I'm a deacon in training, because these are things that we lost. Our communities have lost so many things. When I grew up, we had the churches that gave away food. We had North Church you can go and play basketball. We had all the gyms that you can go into. You understand there's nothing out there for our kids today and everybody keep wondering why our kids? Well, now you know, since the virus and you sit them down in front of a TV. They don't want to do anything. Socialization is out because now games is in. But look at the games. It's all about killing. Right, right, every game is about killing.

Speaker 1 54:00

Right Now. I don't mean to cut you off, but before we that's what I said we need a part two and then we need a part three. So now, before we cut out, we have some questions. We have Rodney. He says any books or publications on Black Spade history?

Speaker 3 54:24

As of right now. No, we have a documentary that we're still trying to put together. It should have been out. You understand I love the sister that put it together, veronica Kitt. She put together. We showed it twice.

Speaker 3 54:36

You understand, it's like three years in the making. We're going on four and you know I just did security with the People's Film Festival that she's a part of and you know it's like you don't cut off your nose to spite your face. So I still work with her and she's doing like we spoke. She says she's trying to do it, she's trying to sell it, but this documentary needs to come out because it's like three years in the making and while we sit back, we got other people coming out with stuff. But they need to learn this history because we speak a lot, a lot of history of the Bronx in that documentary. So hopefully I pray and I pray that it come out because so many of the brothers that was in that documentary are dead today and I pray to God that he let my eyes see it. He let my eyes see it now.

Speaker 1 55:28

I want to now another thing real quick. Uh, we got okay. This person is just saying Bronx, Bronx. Dell Projects is where the Black Spades started.

Speaker 3 55:39

First Division Bronx, dell, soundview. Now he's right. As far as First Division, I don't know Guru, and all of them came from Soundview, from what I know, Okay, because that's where we had our meetings at Soundview, bronxdale was. Now they might have put the first division because, see, the elders didn't have divisions, the elders just came about as there were seven powerful brothers, all karate, most of them from Vietnam, most of them was tired of the living conditions of the project. Now they might have what the First Division might have came up. That's where Bambolla's, from the Bronx River I'm not going to say he's wrong, but Bronx River, bronxdale and Soundview.

Speaker 3 56:27

To me, coming out of the South, bronx was the home of the space and I was taught that Soundview, you understand, is our mother. It was the mother of the space projects and Bronxdale and Bronx River gravitated on. Now what division came out of this one or that one? I couldn't tell them. You understand. God bless. Soski, mike, crazy Mike, you understand. Gumby, you understand all them different brothers, blackie and all of them. I don't know what projects they live in. All I can tell you is that they were my Spade brothers and they came from up there, from those areas right right now.

Speaker 1 57:04

On that note, we will come back. We will do another one of these right here. This is definitely needed in the community. We need interviews like this, the history and we got the brother Tiny on for the Black Spades history. We need to know more about that Black Spades history, the time periods. You know the time periods in the 60s, 70s, 80s, because now, like in my mind as you're telling me about Soundview, right was the Black Spades and then it went on to becoming the Zulu Nation and then later on and now it's Sex Money, murder.

Speaker 3 57:44

Well, I don't have any information about the Sex Money Murder.

Speaker 1 57:49

I know no no, no, I know, I'm just saying like how the history changed.

Speaker 3 57:54

Oh, okay, the only history that I can give you. Ok, sex money, murder I've heard of, but the only history that I know anything about is Zulus and Black Spades and Casanovas. Because, see, first of all, casanovas, along with Zulus, are in the history books, a lot of history books. My name is in a lot of history books. I ain't getting no money for it, but they got it there. But from Black Spades, when you say the birth of a nation, the Black Spades is the birth of a nation of a lot of different organizations Right For the Bronx, exactly, the Black Spades is the birth. And you say Black Spades is the birth of a nation of a lot of different groups. That's here in the South Bronx and I did not know that a lot of our hip-hop brothers See, this is how big Spades was. I didn't know that Lovebug, starsky and a few other people were all Black Spades.

Speaker 1 58:51

Hmm, hmm, that's some history right there Now. On that note, we're going to close out. Thank you for coming out this evening. I really appreciate you. We will see you in a few minutes on another podcast and we're out. Peace you.