Nation of Islam - Kevin Ali

The untold history of the Nation of Islam unfolds in this powerful conversation with Minister Kevin Ali, who brings over four decades of firsthand experience to illuminate one of America's most misunderstood movements.

Born in New Jersey in the late 1950s, Minister Ali takes us through his journey of discovering the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad in 1987 through a mentor who was one of the Messenger's original ministers. With remarkable clarity, he explains the process of joining the Nation – from writing the sacred letter requesting one's "original name" to receiving an X and undergoing the rigorous training that transformed ordinary men and women into disciplined Muslims.

What truly distinguishes this discussion is Minister Ali's detailed account of the Nation's economic empire under Elijah Muhammad – a network of businesses including supermarkets, bakeries, restaurants, farms, a bank, and even two airliners that would be worth over a billion dollars today. "The messenger was the first one to start fast food franchising," he reveals. "Wasn't no McDonald's prior to 1960, 1965... what was the same in every city was your bakery, your supermarket, Salaam Restaurant."

The conversation takes a profound turn when addressing what happened after 1975, when Wallace D. Muhammad systematically dismantled his father's economic infrastructure and redirected followers away from the original teachings. Minister Ali provides rare insight into this pivotal moment in Black American history and the subsequent rise of Minister Louis Farrakhan.

Throughout the discussion, Minister Ali articulates why the Nation of Islam represented "America's greatest threat" – not through violence, but through offering Black Americans spiritual, economic, and cultural independence. "We were discarded on the trash heap," he explains, "and the man with the lion's paw grip reached into that grave and said 'I'll make something of these people.'"

For anyone seeking to understand the profound impact of the Nation of Islam on American history and its continued relevance today, this conversation offers essential wisdom from someone who lived it.

Chapters

• 0:00 Meeting Minister Kevin Ali
• 11:02 Early Years in New Jersey
• 20:42 Journey to Islam in 1987
• 28:11 Joining the Nation and Getting "X'd"
• 39:06 The Messenger's Business Empire
• 49:35 The Fall After 1975
• 55:44 America's Greatest Threat

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

what's going on? Everybody out. There is ron brown lmc, the people's fitness professional, aka soul brother, number one reporter for duty, and we have the brother minister, kevin muhammad, in the building from the nation of. Is Peace to you, minister Kevin Ali.

Speaker 2: 0:26

Peace, my brother. As-salamu alaykum, all the good names belong to the black men, but the one in particular that I use is Ali, but we're Muhammad too.

Speaker 1: 0:38

Right, indeed, indeed, indeed. Thank you for whoever's viewing right now. Really appreciate you on the check in. We started a little earlier. We started a little earlier. Oh wow, we got 10 views already. You must be popular, brother.

Speaker 2: 0:57

No, brother, no you're, you're the one making it happen, my brother.

Speaker 1: 1:01

Yeah, peace have been. Peace have been peace to you. Uh, hope all is well, man. Um, kind of learning about you online I'm seeing uh, it's a beautiful thing, brother, my one of the younger brothers all praises due to Allah all right, so now let's go right into it. Minister kevin ali, let's talk about it. Where were you born and raised.

Speaker 2: 1:25

Well, first, first, my brother Ron, I want to thank you for inviting me on your phenomenal show. It is growing by leaps and bounds. You're reaching a sector of our people, of our family, who want to know, who want to learn. You're educating them. I mean, this is a phenomenal thing in this day and time and I just wanted to say I salute you for what you're doing. And I just wanted to open in the name of Allah, who came in the person of Master Farad Muhammad, thanking him for his coming and thanking him for raising his last and greatest messenger, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad.

Speaker 2: 2:00

Well, brother Ron, I was actually born. I'm joining you now from Charlotte, north Carolina. I've been in North Carolina approximately since 1997. But I was born in Glenridge, new Jersey, which is a suburb of Newark. But my family moved to Orange, new Jersey, in 1969. And that's where I cut my teeth, so to speak, in Essex County, in Orange, new Jersey, right there in what we call the Valley, right off of Scotland Road, right on the border of Orange and South Orange, from 1969 until I graduated high school in 1981.

Speaker 1: 2:44

Nice, nice, I didn't know Newark had a suburb.

Speaker 2: 2:48

Well, I mean, I say that for those of us who are in the South. They tend to think of cities than suburbs. But, as you know, up in where we're from, as they say up top, it's all one big city. You can't tell one from the other.

Speaker 1: 3:04

Right Indeed, indeed Now, growing up in, would you say, orange County.

Speaker 2: 3:09

Orange, new Jersey. Orange, new Jersey, essex County.

Speaker 1: 3:12

Essex Right, essex County. Growing up in Essex County, what else is a part of Essex County?

Speaker 2: 3:19

Orange, east Orange, montclair, irvington, newark, glen Ridge all are part of Essex County.

Speaker 1: 3:31

Got you, got you. So now, growing up there in that time you said 1969. What were the things going on around there in 1969, the 70s in that area that basically opened your eyes to the messengers' teachings?

Speaker 2: 3:49

Well, it's interesting that you say that because I really didn't have my eyes opened consciously to the messengers' teachings until a number of years later, in 1987. But what began planting the seeds? Growing up in Essex County, and I would say from the time that Honorable Elijah Muhammad departed in 1975, I was ancillarily aware of the nation of Islam as a young man. I'll be 63 years old, my next birthday, so in 75, I was about 12 years old. But I remember the brothers prior to 75 selling the papers. I remember the Muhammad Speak newspaper being in all the barbershops. I do recall the Honorable Elijah Muhammad or one of his ministers, like Minister Farrakhan, being on the Muhammad Speaks radio broadcast on WNJR in New York. But after 1975, you started seeing a decline and I wasn't perceiving this at the time. I'm just going by my historical knowledge. What was interesting to me and what I have to give in my older age?

Speaker 2: 5:06

I have to give the brothers props, and when I say the brothers I'm talking about the nations of gods and earths. They kept the lessons, the core of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad's teachings. They kept it together. Wallace D Muhammad told everyone to throw away the lessons after 1975. Fortunately and you weren't even born then. But fortunately, I'll say you, you brothers, kept it together and it got enough into my ear so that when my mentor said that the white man is the devil in 1987 to me, I said, yeah right, the white man is the devil. I said in 1987 to me I said, yeah right, the white man is the devil. Y'all coobs right, because we used to call them y'all coobs, not even knowing why, as a young man growing up in Orange, new Jersey, so I know that's a lot. But Orange was a transitional town of Irish immigrants and Italian immigrants and it began transitioning to black American immigrants who are moving up from the South and moving out of areas like New York and Newark to what they considered more of the quote unquote burbs or suburbs.

Speaker 1: 6:24

Got you, got you Okay. So now, when you caught the, when you started to gravitate towards the lessons, and you got, you know, got this mentor. What age was that?

Speaker 2: 6:37

Let's see. In 1987, 1988, I met one of the honorable Elijah Muhammad's ministers by the name of Minister David Bachar, who was the minister of Temple no 5 in Cincinnati, under the messenger, from approximately 1966 until his departure in 1975. I met him then. So what would I have been? I would have been approximately 2087 minus 63 is what I can't do math in my head, brother, you got the mathematics down on me. So I was what? 26 years old then 27 years old, and I believe I had a very unique perspective because my parents took me out of public school in sixth grade in Orange, new Jersey, and sent me to all white, exclusive, all-white private school in sixth grade, where I graduated in 1981. I had a graduating class of 100, and there was only two original people in my graduating class.

Speaker 2: 7:35

I happened to be one of them, but my mentor, minister David Bachal, was also a trained lawyer. He was the assistant state attorney general in the state of Ohio when he accepted Islam from the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. So the way he delivered it to me, it just was very logical, it made sense. It made connections with the history that I studied in that white school. We learned of Patrice Lumumba. We learned read the autobiography of Malcolm X. We learned of all these great African leaders and great revolutionary leaders in a white private school what we were not being taught in the quote unquote black public schools. So it just made, pardon me, it just made sense to me what he shared with me in 87 88, and I count that as my genesis in islam, although I would not formally write my letter and get on forms until about four years later. Uh, under the in the final call incorporated.

Speaker 1: 8:41

So when you say get on. So when you say, uh, get on forms, what does that mean?

Speaker 2: 8:48

get on forms is when you officially register with your nation. It is a letter that you copy to the best of your ability, like you're trying to make a photocopy, except you're doing it with a pen. Dear Savior, allah, our deliverer, I desire a holy name from thee. Please give me my original name. My slave name is as follows and then you sign it, kevin Tisdale. And then, once your letter passes what is known as laborer's inspection, and that is, it must be perfectly done, no crossouts, no scribbles. It must look like a photocopy, it's got to be neat, clean, it's got to have your address, your signature on it and care of the honorable Elijah Muhammad, and it passes what's known as laborers inspection, where the ministers, captain, secretary, mgt, captain, they say, okay, the letter looks good. Then they send you a letter saying back, saying your letter has passed laborers inspection. We pray that it passes Allah's inspection. So all of our letters, actually, even though they pass laborers inspection, they are still pending the scrutiny of Allah. So that's what we mean by getting on forms, okay.

Speaker 1: 10:08

Now, you know, without being, controversial brother.

Speaker 2: 10:14

Never would we do something like that, never would we be controversial.

Speaker 1: 10:20

Okay, so Allah? You know they have to pass the scrutiny of Allah. So who? How is that process?

Speaker 2: 10:36

That's an excellent question, but we are taught both in the Bible and in the Holy Quran, whether you're a Christian, jew, orthodox Muslim or a member of the nation of Islam, that we will be called to account and stand before our Maker, our Creator, our God, on that Day of Judgment. The particulars of how that is going to take place, I could not tell you. Okay, 10 days prior to the judgment, the honorable Elijah Muhammad teaches us that leaflets will be dropped from the baby planes telling us where to go.

Speaker 1: 11:12

Okay, now, one thing that caught my attention as well is that number one Quran right, there's a few ways I've heard it pronounced. I've heard the more signs. Quran right, there's a few ways I've heard it pronounced. I've heard the more science temple members pronounce it. Quran, quran, quran. I've heard people from the Islam, from our Islam, call it and call it yes, sir, and I've heard Elijah Muhammad say call, call, call, when, like how you said it? Kwan Kwan, kwan Kwan. I've heard, I've heard the messages say it like that.

Speaker 2: 12:02

Yes, and that's, and that's where I got it from. All of those ways to pronounce it, I can't say that there's a wrong, a right or wrong way to pronounce it. But yes, you did pick up that I was pronouncing it the way. I heard the honorable elijah muhammad say the holy kawan right, like a q u w aN type of sound. I never heard him detail or articulate the exegesis of that pronunciation, I just copied it.

Speaker 1: 12:34

Okay, gotcha, gotcha. So now peace to Leo the lion. So now you passed. Now you got the form. It passed through the laborers, through Allah. Now what happens next?

Speaker 2: 12:50

Well, it actually hasn't passed Allah's inspection yet. Ok, from my understanding of how the Honorable Elijah Muhammad teaches what's next as far as my progression in Islam? Yes, sir. So I got on forms in 1991 in the Final Corps Incorporated. At that time I was living in Montgomery Alabama. I had met Minister Bacha in 87 in Dayton Ohio. He became a brother and a mentor of sorts to me, a business partner of sorts with me. We had moved down to Montgomery Alabama and I ran across and I was asking him you know, where can I get more of this? Because he wasn't doing any active ministry at that time. He didn't have an active temple, he was the father and husband of eight children, but he was not doing any active ministry. I said, where can I get more of this? He said, well, in so many words. And when we were off air brother, I'll tell you the exact words he said, but they're not PG friendly. But he said, as far as I can see, and he told me, all of the different groups that were claiming the honorable Elijah Muhammad, including his son Wabas Deed Mohammed, including several others. But he said it said it appears to me that Louis Farrakhan is sticking closest to what the boss taught. So if you want to get some more, you go ahead and see what he's talking about in so many words. He said but I got a caveat for you. He said he's got an ego problem and if he starts to add himself into the teachings, run from him. And I never forgot that he's now. He said now don't tell them that you know me, because at that time, uh, wavis d mohammed wanted to kill me and my family. And he said they're both, they're both together like peas in a pod. I never forgot that.

Speaker 2: 14:51

I went on to become a private soldier. I worked my way up and myself and another brother, brother Gregory X, who had gotten his ex up in New York City, we went up to it. We were going up to Atlanta twice a month to get training because there was nothing going on in Montgomery at that time. We went twice a month to Atlanta, georgia, to get training. Minister Van Muhammad was Farrakhan's regional minister at that time. That's where we got on forums. That's where we got some old final call newspapers and started selling newspapers on the corner of Rosa Parks and Fairview Road in Montgomery, alabama, right in front of the church's chicken. We eventually parlayed that into building a local temple there. At first I was the secretary of that temple. I would open up the meeting. They would send somebody down from Atlanta to teach and I'm like you don't need to send anybody down to teach, I'm well capable of teaching. But you know, you know how those politics go. They give their boys little cities. Eventually I became the minister. I'm really really shortening this up, but I eventually became the minister of that city.

Speaker 2: 16:00

They played the game with me about papers we were selling, you know, 600 to 700 final call newspapers. There was only three or four brothers who we could count on. This is not like the streets of New York or Chicago, this is Montgomery, alabama. And they wanted to send me 3,000 papers and wanted me to pay for it with my credit card. I said no, sir, you're getting real ornery and real disrespectful. Brother minister, I said I didn't come to be bullied. I said y'all can't bully me. I said no, I'm not doing that. I have enough soldiers here to sell six to 700. We can increase one or two or 300, not to 3000. Well, man, we need to bust you. I said well, I didn't come here for a post, so if you want to bust me, go right ahead Now, at this time it wasn't van muhammad at this time, it was captain curtis muhammad and, uh, jamil muhammad at that time. And I gave up that post in approximately september of 94 no, september of 90, september of 94.

Speaker 2: 17:04

Then the following year I formally stepped away from the final call. I still was selling paper, still was a private soldier. I stepped away once I realized the Million man March was actually going to take place in late spring, early summer of 95. I said you know what? This is enough for me, because previously, at that Labor's meeting about a little a year ago, I heard them calling lewis farrakhan, dear holy apostle, and I never forgot what minister bacha said if they start, if he starts to include himself in the teachings, run from him, there's only one dear holy apostle in the nation of islam, the honorable elijah mahmoud. So that's a real short, succinct history of that brings us up to approximately 1996.

Speaker 2: 17:48

Later I moved to Charlotte, north Carolina, in 1997. I actually started doing active ministry here in Charlotte, meeting at a community center from about 1999 until about 2008, 2009, on a weekly basis. I have not been doing any active ministry, any active temple teaching, in Charlotte since that time in 2009. Myself and minister eric. We crossed paths and began working together and met each other on a message board in the early 2000s called seventhfamcom and farrakhanfactorcom, where I was, you know, keyboard banging, supporting and defending the teachings of the honorable elijah muhammad and at the same time we both were reaching out to each other when we realized wait a minute, we think alike. We got to hook up. And that's basically when myself and Minister Eric Muhammad hooked up in approximately 2000, 2001.

Speaker 1: 18:51

Okay, Okay. So now, yeah, you sped it up a little bit. So now, as far as the teachers are concerned, I want to talk about the books, right? Yes, sir, so I don't want to. You know what, Before we fast forward to the books? When you come into the nation right, the nation of Islam, what are the first things that you're supposed to get of Islam? What are the first things that you're supposed to get? You get, you know, once you come in. You know, you did your letter and all that. Now what's next?

Speaker 2: 19:24

Excellent question. Once your letter passes, you are to report, and the letter under the messenger, the letter was sent to Chicago. You would be then registered on what's called the Lamb Book of Life. But in the absence of that, that sounds interesting.

Speaker 2: 19:45

In the absence of that, you report to your local temple, of course, where you're going to put your letter in, because we don't have any leader in absentia of Messenger Muhammad. And now you are supposed to recite you get your student enrollment and your actual facts and you are supposed to recite your student enrollment and actual facts. Once you recite by heart the student enrollment and the actual facts, you're also given the rules of Islam. You're also given the Muslim opening and closing prayer. Once you pass, recite those student enrollment and actual facts, then you are given your X. So I became in April 4th no, excuse me, april 7th 1991, I became Kevin X.

Speaker 2: 20:33

X to tell X-ing out the name of the x slave master signifying in mathematics unknown. I don't know what my original name is, but that letter is not just a letter. It's a letter to god care of his messenger. But it's really a prayer. Please Allah, give me my original name. Please Allah, I desire to reclaim my own. I desire a holy name from me. My slave name is as follows Once you recite those student Romans and actual facts, then your name is X'd out.

Speaker 2: 21:14

Excuse me, not your name, the slave master's name is X'd out. And now the struggle and the journey really begins. You think most people think it's a finish at this point. No, it's a start. You are now being reborn again, and that's why the Bible says a man cannot enter the kingdom of heaven unless he first be reborn. Well, how can I be reborn? How can I enter into my mother's womb again as a big man? We never understood that in the church, but for the first time I understood it, as a follower of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, what that rebirth meant. Now you're starting as a new individual, a new growth Kevin X, james X, eric X. And if there was another Kevin in the temple that I would become Kevin 2X.

Speaker 1: 22:06

Okay, and that great explanation. So now, after all of these years, I know the praise is due to Allah. Thank you for that. That really helped. So now, now you're born again, what's what's next? I don't know if you can go into you know greater detail. However, you know, you know, do whatever you can, the best you can, without giving too much information, I guess without giving too much information.

Speaker 2: 22:32

Now you are assigned to your class and the class that you are assigned to. If you are a man, you are assigned to the fruit of Islam. This is the name of the military training given to the men who accepted Islam in North America MGT and GCC. Muslim girls training and general civilization class how to keep home, how to raise your children, how, in general, how to act at home and abroad. Now you are given your place in your class.

Speaker 2: 22:59

Many people think that it is the Sunday lecture where you learn your religion, and that is really not quite correct. The Sunday lecture is to give the new convert, the new potential guest or visitor a chance to become familiar with these teachings enough for them to say I want to accept them. But where you actually learn your religion and how to be a Muslim is in the FOI class and the MGT class. Depending on the size of the temple, you are assigned to either a squad leader or you're assigned to a lieutenant, or, if it's a smaller temple, you're assigned directly to the captain. But that is who now teaches you how to be a Muslim. Ie teaches you your religion. It is the lieutenant, it is the squad leader who teaches you how to be a Muslim. Quote-unquote teaches you your religion.

Speaker 1: 24:02

Check, check, check, ok, ok. So now you're in, so FOI class, aside from Sunday, isn't there a Friday class as well?

Speaker 2: 24:13

Well, if we're going as how it was under the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, as we learned in the church and maybe you've heard this expression an idle mind is what.

Speaker 1: 24:27

Idle mind is the devil's playground, the devil's workshop, workshop right, not the devil's playground, no.

Speaker 2: 24:34

Well, playground, playground, workshop, all those apply.

Speaker 1: 24:38

Right.

Speaker 2: 24:38

So the Honorable Elijah Muhammad kept us together and kept us busy, you know, both socially training-wise. So Sunday was the general Sunday meeting. All of the surrounding affiliate temples that were smaller study groups or ABs or Cs. They would come to the larger temple, say in Newark or New York, on a Sunday. Monday was FOI class. Tuesday, I believe, was a family night. Wednesday was another temple meeting. I can't remember what was on Thursday. Friday again was another temple meeting, not a study group, not where everybody sits around talking about what they think and what their perspective is. We don't know what our perspective is. We have no idea. We are coming in being trained. Someone more trained than us must teach us. So on the Wednesday and Friday meeting it wasn't generally the main minister of the temple, like James Shabazz, number 25 in Newark, or Minister Louis Farrakhan, number seven in New York, or Jeremiah Shabazz at number 12 in Philadelphia. They would be the main lecturer generally on that big meeting, sunday.

Speaker 2: 25:45

On Wednesdays and Fridays, usually it was one of the members of the minister's training class who would teach that lecture On their way to becoming and learning how to run a temple of their own and teach a temple of their own If the big minister, the main minister of the city, taught on that Wednesday or Friday. Oh, that was a huge treat If the main minister the Monday FOI class that was run by, not the minister, that's run by the captain, that's the captain's class. That was run by, not the minister, that's run by the captain, that's the captain's class. But he sometimes would invite the main minister in and that was a great treat to have the main minister come and address the fruit of Islam.

Speaker 2: 26:24

So he always had something to do for us. And Saturday was MGT class. In between we would have Muslim bazaars, we would have Muslim fashion shows, we would have Muslim parades where the fruit and the MGT would march down the street on a Wednesday evening or Friday evening or sometimes a Sunday morning and march and the people would follow us marching down to the temple. So we were always active, always doing something in the, in the community. The Honorable Ajaan always had us doing something for every day of the week. Oh, and of course, in the larger cities Muhammad's University of Islam is going on. The school, right, right.

Speaker 1: 27:08

You're going to school, right? So you know, I want to do another podcast with you, if you, if you have the information, um, on what was going on at that time, like from the school and and and all these things.

Speaker 2: 27:21

Now, um, that doesn't exist any longer no, no, sir, it prior after 1975 that pretty much went away with wallace d muhammad, uh, dismantling all of the businesses, dismantling all of the. We had aling, all of the. We had a bank, a banking system. We had two airliners that were flying around. One of the messenger's sons was a pilot.

Speaker 2: 27:45

We had the Mohammed cold storage plant where it used to be in Chicago, called Labretti's Beef or Labretti's in Chicago, called the breadies beef or the breadies. It was a, it was a. It was a gigantic two block long butcher shop and it's. It served all the meats to all the restaurants in Chicago. Messenger bought it from the breadie and Italian and he kept the name the breadies and the brothers, and he kept all those contracts for all the restaurants. So the people would come to the contract and you see the brothers, and, and he kept all those contracts for all the restaurants. So the people would come to the contract and you see the brothers there, and of course they'd be in there not, they'd not in their suit and a bow tie, they would be in their, uh, in their butcher gear like a, like a, like a coverall hold that, hold that thought.

Speaker 1: 28:32

Salam ala alternate alternate. Salaam Ala alternate channel. You can rebroadcast this on your YouTube, no problem, just make sure the NYP talk show logo is up there. Don't take any of that out, so we can get promotion over here. You can use it, don't mind Peace.

Speaker 2: 28:53

And Brother Salaam is one of our supporters of Temple no 15 out in Pasadena, california. Great brother, that's a lot of history behind him, so he'll, he'll do right by you.

Speaker 1: 29:02

Thank you, thank you. So now you were saying, we would leave off.

Speaker 2: 29:07

We were talking about the messenger buying the Bredy's butchering complex Right and had the contracts for every restaurant in Chicago. They got their meat from libretti's. The messenger bought it. Now the brothers are working there and the people would come from the restaurant and so the brothers would come up to him and say, what can I get for you, captain? What I get for your boss? This was white people coming to patronize us. We just, hey, devil, what kind of meat you want? Devil, you getting your meat? What you doing here? No, hey, captain, you know they like being called captain, they like being called boss.

Speaker 2: 29:46

The messenger trained them to do this wow so that we could enter into the world of civilized businessmen. Right, what up, captain? What do we call if we carry him? Calling him captain, he playing us all this into the world of civilized businessmen. Right, what up, captain. What do we call him? We call him Captain. He's paying us all this money for all this meat. He's fitting to buy, right, I say fitting to. Even though I'm from New Jersey, I've been in the South over 40 years, brother.

Speaker 1: 30:08

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:13

So we had a. It was a beautiful burgeoning nation, a beautiful burgeoning enterprise, a beautiful burgeoning enterprise and with a conservative rate of growth. That $80 to $100 million enterprise back then would be conservatively right now over a billion dollars corporation, not to mention your supermarket, your bakery, your supermarket, your bakery.

Speaker 2: 30:43

The messenger was the first one to start fast food franchising. Wasn't no McDonald's prior to 1960, 1965. Wasn't no Wendy's? Wasn't no Chick-fil-A? No, what was the same in every city was your bakery your supermarket salam restaurant in every city? Was your bakery your supermarket salam restaurant in every city? That was done by the messenger. Guess who duplicated that example? Who? The Caucasian people. That's where they got the idea to duplicate it from Same in every city.

Speaker 1: 31:15

Where can I find this information?

Speaker 2: 31:20

from Same in every city? Where can I find this information, brother? I have garnered this over the years of being involved with my mentor, minister Bachal, who passed away in 2001. Another mentor that he introduced me to, minister John Muhammad, who passed away in 2014. Minister John Muhammad was the messenger's minister at temple number 26 uh in san francis. Well, first started at temple number 11 in springfield, massachusetts. Then the messenger sent him temple number 26 in san francisco.

Speaker 2: 31:44

Not the messenger's blood brother, but this was the former john bx who was mentioned in the autobiography of malcolm x that malcolm said he was scared to death of john bx. Later, later, he became, in 72, minister John Muhammad. So, just in talking with these elders over the years, as far as I know, brother, it's it's really all oral history now, but you may be able to garner it in the Library of Congress and other places that store microfiche and microfilms of the Muhammad Speaks and of various newspapers around the country. It's not pieced together. It's not put together in any one place that I'm aware of. I'm going off a memory right now of what I've learned from these great giants over the years that I've been associated with them prior to their death.

Speaker 1: 32:34

So Wallace Dean Muhammad, he just dismantled the whole thing.

Speaker 2: 32:41

He said what, what, what do we need a supermarket? What do we need farms for? You know, america has farms and supermarkets. What do we need it for? He dismantled, he dismantled everything. The only thing that he kind of left intact was he renamed Muhammad's University into Sister Clara Muhammad University, but then over the years, even that started going down Under the messenger. Muhammad's University was one of the finest secondary level education schools. It was on par with a Catholic school education. Black people who were not members of the Nation of Islam were sending their children to Muhammad's universities in the major cities and their parents were so enthralled and impressed with the change in their children and what their children were learning, how sharp their children were becoming, that many parents converted to Islam because of what was being done with their children in the school. That's how powerful Muhammad's university was under the honorable Elijah Muhammad.

Speaker 1: 33:53

Okay, so after Wallace Dean did what he did, what happened to the nation of islam? It was basically the nation of islam as we see it today was has been under uh, minister lewis farrakhan well, uh, historically, wallace d muhammad took over February 26th 1975.

Speaker 2: 34:20

Within six months, brother, six months after that, in September of 1975, he was anointed as the new leader of the Nation of Islam. In September 1975, there was a party at Muhammad's Temple of Islam, that complex on Stony Island Avenue in Chicago. And when I say a party, brother, I literally mean a literal party. Anybody who says that I'm lying, they can go verify this in the Muhammad Speaks at that time. At that party there was dancing, there was drinking, there was sweethearting of unmarried couples and there were sweet hearting with devils. One of the attendees of that party was Phil Donahue, who came to that party with his then black girlfriend. Oh, wow. So this is six months after night of the supposed death of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. People started going and this leadership started going completely back on what he taught. Many people just stepped away, the private soldiers. Many of them just stepped away because they remember the message saying that these things would happen and they said we're just going to step away and we're going to fade into the background and let this thing play out, because the messenger said this would happen and they said we're just going to step away and we're going to fade into the background and let this thing play out, because the messenger said this would happen and they just continue to privately believe in what the Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught the mentor who I ran into. He stepped away that day.

Speaker 2: 36:00

Minister Louis Farrakhan did not. He stayed with Wallace D Muhammad for three and a half years as his international representative. He wasn't kicking and screaming and protesting. He actually was teaching Wallace D Muhammad's doctrine better than Wallace D Muhammad taught it. Wallace D Muhammad had a book of supreme wisdom according to W D Mohammed's doctrine, better than Wallace D Mohammed taught it. Wallace D Mohammed had a book of supreme wisdom according to WD Mohammed. Remember that he told him to throw away the messenger's supreme wisdom and the messenger's lessons. He then gave the people his own book of lessons that the ministers, like Minister Farrakhan, began teaching the people out of. That the ministers, like Minister Farrakhan, began teaching the people out of.

Speaker 2: 36:37

And Minister Farrakhan stayed with Wallace D Muhammad until approximately three and a half years later, when he left him in 78, minister Farrakhan Wallace put Minister Farrakhan. He pulled him out of New York. He pulled Minister John Muhammad out of San Francisco and he put them two huge temples and he put them in a very small temple on the west side of chicago, together and cut both of their paychecks, and that's when minister farrakhan decided to rebuild the work. I put that in quotes of the honorable elijah muhammad and he had his first savior's day, I believe in 1981. I believe. Okay, that's and that's what the media considers the nation of islam. But what rocketed minister farrakhan to prominence I don't know if you remember this were two interviews on national daytime television. Yep, I know one of them. One was in 1985, the other was in 1990.

Speaker 1: 37:41

Do you remember who did those interviews, brother? I forgot the European's name.

Speaker 2: 37:45

Who did I say? Who did I just tell you was at the party, donahue.

Speaker 1: 37:50

Donahue, phil Donahue. Donahue, that was in 85, right, yes, sir, and the second one was in 90. And that was what was that? That was Phil Donahue. That was in 85, right, yes, sir, and the second one was in 90. And that was what was that.

Speaker 2: 38:01

That was Phil Donahue. That was still Phil Donahue. Yeah, he did two with Phil Donahue and then, after that one, he started doing a whole bunch of others.

Speaker 1: 38:10

Okay.

Speaker 2: 38:11

One. I think he did one with Mike Wallace. He did Barbara Walters, I don't remember. Then he was on, like remember he was on Time Magazine and all that. But Phil Donahue was the first one to rocket him to national prominence the same Phil Donahue that was at that party that was thrown by Wallace D Mohamed. They think very far in advance, brother. They plan ahead for decades. We barely plan from Friday to Monday, Except what club we're going to on Friday and Saturday and we already know what church we're going to on Sunday and we got to be back to work Monday.

Speaker 1: 38:57

We know that that's our plan.

Speaker 2: 39:01

So what are you saying happened in that regard? It's all theory and it's all speculation, but just based on those little pieces that I've put together, he was rocketed to prominence. He's a very talented orator, he's a very talented individual individual. But he was given that national stage and he performed on that national stage. They tried to give that national stage to wallace, but he, he was just not a very charismatic individual. Remember the fbi said we have got to stop the rise of a black mess, we've got to stop Elijah and that means also stopping anybody who would represent him properly.

Speaker 2: 39:46

One of the best ways to combat to the Caucasian people, islam, as taught by the messenger, is a disease. The best way to combat a disease is to create a vaccine. How do you create a vaccine? You take a weak part of the disease right, then you inject it and then it makes the people immune to the full thing. So they took a little bit of Islam without the black separatism, without the pan-Africanism, without the separation, without the national unity, without the national flag, just praying and going to Mecca. They took that and inoculated people with it. Well, I already have Islam, I don't need that flag. I don't. I don't need that flag. I don't need a separate nation or territory. I can get along in peace, we all. We're all God's children. Well, now we're right back to Christianity. Very wise people that we're going up against brother. Very wise people.

Speaker 1: 40:52

They're scientists of how to keep us off balance right, that's a fact, all right, so now, uh to fast forward. Okay, so uh, war is. I'm like now you got me thinking so. Uh, wallace dean, he did what he did. Farrakhan skyrocketed to prominence. What was taught under farrakhan? Did he still have supreme wisdom?

Speaker 2: 41:23

when I was involved in 1991 it appeared that he was still teaching the messengers teachings. In retrospect, looking back, I started there were things that I was hearing in 1991 from his rostrum that was like okay, but somewhere along in the late 1994, 1995, like I said, I was at my first national laborers meeting in Chicago and they started, they introduced him as the apostle of almighty Allah and I was like yeah, hmm, and I saw everybody getting up cheering and I'm like okay, let me get up and cheer, so somebody don't see me not getting up and cheering. So I just kind of got up and was watching people. I said yeah, they're setting him up as the new messenger. I said this is not Islam, it's taught by the Honorable Elijah Malman. And I stepped away late spring of 1995. I stepped away late spring of 1995.

Speaker 2: 42:17

Several years later I heard that they were introducing these things of Scientology. Well, scientology is nothing new Scientology. I read that book in 1981 as a senior in high school. From L Ron Hubbard and also under Wallace D Muhammad. They were dibbling and dabbling in Scientology. It was a government psy-op. One of the offshoots of that government psy-op was Reverend Jim Jones. Remember him, the People's.

Speaker 1: 42:46

Temple in.

Speaker 2: 42:47

Guyana yeah With them, 900 people that drank Kool-Aid. Yeah, reverend, jim Jones was an offshoot from the Church of Scientology. If you look at his cross, it looks just from the church of scientology if you look at his, if you look at his.

Speaker 1: 43:02

Uh, if you look at his cross, it looks just like the cross of scientology right now.

Speaker 2: 43:04

Now, real quick, he spoke.

Speaker 1: 43:04

He spoke at temple number two under wawas d muhammad, with farrakhan sitting right next to him oh wait, I think our brother is uh, ishmael bay broke that down the brother creator of Boundless Universe. Can you ask the brother is he familiar with the documentary by Omar Shabazz on the Minister Farrakhan, on the Minister Farrakhan and Malcolm X? If yes, any thoughts?

Speaker 2: 43:34

I'm not familiar with that. It's a documentary. You mean like a film documentary? Yes, I'm not familiar with that. It's a documentary. You mean like a film documentary? Yes, I'm not familiar with it. I know that name, omar Shabazz, does ring a bell. I'm not familiar with the documentary.

Speaker 2: 43:47

Is that the one where they put forth the notion that he somehow was involved in the assassination of Malcolm X? I have no idea. Yeah, I'm not familiar with it. But suffice to say that there was a lot going on during that time under Malcolm X, when he was separated from his teacher. There is a laborers meeting that was done during that time where we have the Honorable Elijah Muhammad on tape saying that and you got to listen to the whole thing. You gotta kind of read between the lines. You gotta understand what a wise man the messenger was and he said he said brother Lewis, malcolm sure thought he had you. You know it's only speculation why he said that I had my theories. I'm not going to promote theories on a public forum, but we have the messenger saying that to lewis farrakhan on tape. Brother lewis not just to him.

Speaker 2: 44:45

he's saying it to all the laborers a lot of times when farrakhan says the messenger told me this and the messenger told me that he wasn't the only one in the room. The messenger met with his laboring staff, his ministers, twice a month. They flew in Chicago to meet with him and would fly in on other occasions if they needed more assistance. But in 1975, of course, with Malcolm, there's a lot of issues going on. Even in 1972, if you look closely at the Savior's Day of 1972, and this is on film you will see the laborers actually trying to force the messenger to sit down. There's great symbolism to making a leader sit who doesn't want to sit and he said get your hands off of me. Leader sit who doesn't want to sit. And he said get your hands off of me. And then the message had to clean up because you know well, I know they want me to be most comfortable, but they were actually trying to sit the messenger down in 72.

Speaker 2: 45:44

72 was also the year when minister james shabazz was assassinated in Newark. His murder is still unsolved to this day. Many things have gone on. Remember, brother, we are not just a religious organization, we are actually a nation, and America deals with its nations, both her friends and her foes. Her friends are her allies, but her foes? They work to keep those nations destabilized, disunified, infighting anything but focusing on the mission and their real objective. That is, the goal of the United States counterintelligence program is to destabilize any nation that might be a threat to America, and I submit that the biggest threat to America is the teachings of the honorable Elijah Muhammad ie, the nation of Islam. He's been dealing with her us for since 1930.

Speaker 1: 46:59

So why do you say that that's the biggest threat?

Speaker 2: 47:03

The biggest threat to the Caucasian people? Yeah, because America is the biggest, baddest bully on the planet. America has emerged in the world order as the standalone, heavyweight champion of the world. No one stands against America. America has defeated all foes. I remember during the Gulf War they thought Saddam was going to do something. They rolled over Iraq like it wasn't even there. Same thing with Iran. That's why they came to America.

Speaker 2: 47:43

The messenger teaches us that no nation could attack you here in America. This was in the heads of your fathers. Great Atlantic Ocean on the east, pacific Ocean on the west. But you're not so far out of the way that you can get out of the way of God. He can get you, no matter where you go. So the biggest threat is the nation of Islam and the biggest prize is the golden vessels that he has stolen from the holy temple of King Nebuchadnezzar. Those golden vessels, brother, are you and I. We're symbolically in the Bible called golden vessels wine cups, charms, flowers, roses. That is describing a people that this country has stolen, and now God wants to claim them back and because of their stealing of them, they are going to be paid a price, because God promised Abraham that he would make them pay a price for mistreating us, being their seed a stranger, his seed a stranger, in a strange land and spitefully used in slavery. That's why it's the biggest threat to the stability of America. He has to eliminate it in his mind to survive.

Speaker 1: 49:10

Okay.

Speaker 2: 49:11

Or at least keep us fighting with each other so that we won't focus on him oh, that must, that must be working and that's why your programs, like yourself, are so valuable, because you're opening that dialogue in a respectful manner. You're not arguing and fighting. You're, you're, you're, you're, you're all asking questions so that people can learn and accept it for themselves and and even yourself, and it even helps myself and minister muhammad at the same time, because, as we're sharing things with you, we're, we're, we're teaching what once taught, twice learned right exactly so it's a.

Speaker 2: 49:51

It's a beautiful thing you're doing, brother. It's a, it's a phenomenal thing you're doing. Thank you sir.

Speaker 1: 49:56

So now, after so farrakhan, so then after farrakhan took over, so to speak lack a better term. Uh, taught supreme wisdom. They started to get into Scientology at around what time again.

Speaker 2: 50:15

The first public discussion I heard of Scientology was around 2011,. Although it was being discussed prior to that, I don't know exactly when and, like I said, why was D Mohammed? And then they were dipping and dabbling in Scientology back in uh, back in 75 and eight.

Speaker 1: 50:34

Okay.

Speaker 2: 50:35

So I stopped really paying real close, close attention. I don't know what's going on over there. Most of the people that I came in with I'll be 63 years old next birthday and most of the ones that I came in with who were in leadership at that time, they're not around in leadership anymore. So I don't know a lot of the ones that I came in with who were in leadership at that time they're not around in leadership anymore. So I don't know a lot of the newer people. Again, I was regulated more towards the South. I didn't formally accept Islam, but there have been so many. I don't even know who the minister of New York is under Farrakhan anymore. I know who it is in California, I think it's. I'm not trying to disrespect his name. He was the former Tony Muhammad, I think Abdul Saeed Muhammad, Okay.

Speaker 1: 51:21

So how would a successor of the Nation of Islam would be picked? Where do you think it's going to go once Minister Farrakhan passes on?

Speaker 2: 51:34

Do you mean a successor of the nation of islam or do you mean a successor of the final call incorporated, which was is an incorporated entity 501 c3 of the united states government? Which which are you? I want to clarify your question a little.

Speaker 1: 51:48

The final call Brother.

Speaker 2: 51:51

I don't know, over there in the final call, all I can do is guess. I have no clue. They're going to spook somebody up and somebody's going to spook themselves up trying to get those positions. I don't know. But for the nation of Islam I will say it like the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said. They asked him have you chosen for yourself a successor? And he said no, I can't do that. I did not choose myself, so therefore I can't choose another. Since I didn't choose myself and I'm paraphrasing this here and since a man has brought you face to face with God and brought you face to face with the devil, what more would another one teach Then? Then he comes back and said there will be no successor. Once you have the truth, the nation will carry itself on into the future. We will be the Allahs, those cities, those ministers, those temples, those captains, those secretaries, those lieutenants. That was a structure that was supposed to remain in place for us until such time as America would be destroyed.

Speaker 1: 53:22

So what's happening now with, basically? Is anyone doing what Elijah Muhammad was doing back in his day With the bank?

Speaker 2: 53:40

Yes, there are believers around the country, for instance in Philadelphia. For instance, there's a minister Wasim in Camden, new Jersey, who has a nice temple, has a Muhammad University school and a nice physical building in Camden. So there are various believers around the country. Minister Muhammad, eric Muhammad, has the temple meeting in Atlanta. There are various ministers and believers like that around the country who are doing their best to hold on to what Messenger Muhammad gave us and what God gave to him. But to the extent of how he did it when he was amongst us, we are not seeing that. We're not even seeing that in the final call they say they rebuilt the nation, but temple number two, a final call building and a restaurant that has not been open in 15 years, that's not rebuilding the nation that has not been open in 15 years.

Speaker 1: 54:41

That's not rebuilding the nation. It's a reasonable attempt, but that's not rebuilding the nation. Now, do you think, minister Messenger, do you think the messenger was able to do what he did because of the time, the social climate at the time versus the social climate nowadays?

Speaker 2: 54:56

Brother, my belief is that the messenger and the nation of Islam set the social climate of the time.

Speaker 1: 55:04

That's true. I remember when I was a kid.

Speaker 2: 55:09

Even though our people didn't accept it.

Speaker 2: 55:11

My family was not Muslim.

Speaker 2: 55:13

Growing up, my mothers and my grandmothers and my aunts they never left the house without covering their hair with either a hat or a scarf, so they set that climate my belief, and this is my belief, and you can call me a spooky Muslim if you want, but my belief is the messenger was successful like he was because he was a divine man and it was divinely written that he would make a success with a people who had never had any success before.

Speaker 2: 55:46

We were discarded on the trash heap, much like the master builder Hiram Abiff, buried in the north corner in a shallow grave, dead, with the only sign of life, a little small acacia plant popping up from our grave site, and the man with the lion's paw grip reached into that grave and said you know not going to do nothing with these people, I'll make something of these people and I believe we believe, believers believe that the messenger was so successful because it is the fulfillment of divine scripture that he would take a people who were nothing and make the world say God, what a beautiful thing he created. And they came from around the world to marvel at what messenger Muhammad did with us, and no man since then has been able to come close to duplicating it. That's a believer's belief. What proof do I have of this? The Holy Quran doesn't call me a prover and a knower. The Holy Quran calls us believers, so I'll answer it like that.

Speaker 1: 56:54

All right. Now I just want to go to one of the comments. I just want to see how you would answer this comment. Al Islam says the brothers in the Nation of Islam are not real Muslims. They are plagiarized Muslims.

Speaker 2: 57:12

Plagiarized Muslims.

Speaker 1: 57:15

Yeah, that's what the comment said.

Speaker 2: 57:16

I mean, you know, opinions are like body parts, everybody has them Right. I will say this I'm not sure what a plagiarized Muslim is, but I have applied what I've learned from Messenger Muhammad to people all over the earth. When they respect us, we respect them, and people from all over the earth visited Muhammad's temple when Messenger Muhammad was amongst us. And when people say, are you a Muslim? I say yes. I don't just say I'm a Muslim, I say I'm a follower of the honorable Elijah Muhammad, messenger of Allah. I have not, in my 40 years, almost 40 years of being a Muslim, not once have I had one Muslim from around the planet say that I'm a plagiarized Muslim. All I hear from them is all praises due to Allah. And many of them say oh, you follow Elijah Muhammad. Elijah Muhammad, yes, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. All praise is due. That's the response I get.

Speaker 2: 58:26

Most of the people who say what that quote said are Muslims who were born here in America, former washed out or children of washed out, former members of the nation of Islam. I've never gotten that kind of disrespect from Muslims around the planet, and neither did messenger Muhammad. He's opened up a whole world for us and made friendship for us all over the planet. A Muslim is a brother of a us and made friendship for us all over the planet. A muslim is the, a brother of a muslim, and a real muslim. The muslim message teaches us would never speak ill of another muslim, especially in front of disbelievers like that. So I'm not sure what you mean by plagiarized, but our god brought supreme wisdom. Nobody that I know of brought anything before that. So who was he copying? Islam has always existed. How are we copying it?

Speaker 1: 59:21

On that note, thank you for coming out, brother. I'm glad to have you. Hopefully you'll come back again and you know that's pretty much it.

Speaker 2: 59:31

Any closing thoughts or you want to give the people your social medias to find you or anything like that, you can channel of Muhammad's Temple number 15, minister Eric Muhammad and Muhammad's Temple of Islam 15 on Facebook, and I wanted to thank you, brother, for inviting me out. As I said, I really mean that you are doing a phenomenal thing. The amount of information that you're bringing to people in this time of disinformation is so critical, and I believe these are dialogues that have to take place and are taking place and will continue to take place, and I'm just very honored to participate in it, very honored that you would have me, and I appreciate the respect you've shown myself and the respect that you've showed Minister Eric Muhammad and the other believers from Muhammad's Temple no 15. Respect that you've showed minister Eric Muhammad and the other believers from Muhammad's temple number 15. And I just say, uh, whatever you need from us, brother, we are here and we'll, we'll do it.

Speaker 2: 1:00:38

I definitely want to promote NYP talk show. I don't want to promote my personal social media, that's all. I have a personal ones, but hopefully we will do this again and continue to do this on a regular basis. I've enjoyed it. The time went Indeed, indeed Peace to everybody in. And continue to do this on a regular basis. I've enjoyed it.

Speaker 1: 1:00:53

The time went like that Indeed Peace to everybody in the chat. Hopefully we have a podcast in three minutes eight o'clock. What's wrong with black people? That's the name of the podcast.

Speaker 2: 1:01:07

I love it. Peace to everybody Peace.