Islam: From Sunni to Sufi

The spiritual journey from one faith tradition to another rarely follows a straight path. In this profound conversation, Abin AB takes us through his transition from Southern Baptist Christianity to Islam, revealing the unexpected turns and deep insights gained along the way.

Growing up in Middle Georgia, Abin's encounter with Muslim brothers at Pan-African events sparked curiosity that eventually led him to visit a mosque—an experience he describes as "one of the best experiences in my life." What followed was not an overnight transformation but a gradual process of adopting Islamic practices while navigating family relationships and personal habits. The challenging conversations with Christian parents, the struggle to give up alcohol, and the discipline required to pray five times daily all contributed to a deeper understanding of his new faith.

The heart of this discussion explores the relationship between Sunni orthodoxy and Sufi mysticism within Islam. Abin beautifully illustrates this connection: "It's almost like saying my body was made first and then my heart was made last." This metaphor captures the essence of how Sufism represents the inner spiritual dimension of Islamic practice rather than a separate tradition. Through detailed explanations of prayer beads (zikr), mantras, and the science behind these spiritual technologies, we gain insight into practices that help maintain positive thought patterns and spiritual accountability.

Perhaps most moving is Abin's description of the transformative power of Islamic prayer and the call to prayer (adhan), which he notes can "bring Christians to tears when they hear it for the first time." The discussion concludes with thoughtful explorations of Islamic customs, dress codes, and even polygamy—all explained with nuance that challenges Western misconceptions while honoring the wisdom within these traditions.

What deeper dimensions might your own spiritual practice contain? Listen, reflect, and consider how these insights might resonate with your own journey, regardless of your faith tradition.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Show Format
• 3:02 Personal Journey into Islam
• 8:29 Family Reactions and Lifestyle Changes
• 17:52 Sunni vs Sufi Traditions Explained
• 27:06 Call to Prayer and Spiritual Impact
• 36:09 The Science of Prayer Beads
• 47:29 Islamic Customs and Dress Code
• 56:39 Polygamy in Islam and Closing

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

what's going on? What's going on out there. Everybody is ron brown, lmt, the people's fitness professional, aka soul brother number one. Soul brother number one, reporting for duty. Don't forget to like, comment, share, subscribe. Also know we have super chats If you want to contribute to our cause. Nyp Talk Show Cash App is the cash app. I'm going to reiterate that. Keep saying that, keep marketing that.

Speaker 1: 0:38

When we first started this, we didn't we kind of thought that saying that all the time was corny. We kind of thought that saying that all the time was corny. We thought we were too cool to say that stuff. But you know, that's some New York bull crap, right? So you know. So now we are humble. We are humble. You know we're trying to build this platform bigger and bigger and better. You know we're in a studio now we're in to build this platform bigger and bigger and better. You know we're in a studio now. We're in a podcast studio. We're trying to do once a month and then eventually build up to two, three and then eventually the majority of the podcast will be in person in the future. But right now we're here.

Speaker 1: 1:21

So again, like, comment, share, subscribe, cash App, nyp Talk Show. If you want to contribute if you want to help the cause. Also, what was the other thing? Super Chat, super Chat. Help us out. Peace Abin AB. The Light really appreciate you coming on this evening. Tonight we're talking about Islam, sunni to Sufi. I have a lot of questions in regards to Islam. Sufi to Sunni to Sufi. I have a lot of questions in regards to Islam, given my background, so let's take it away.

Speaker 2: 1:53

I'm ready man. Essentially, islam being that third part of the Abrahamic triangle that everybody somewhat knows about but is kind of poorly misunderstood over here in the West. Sufism not to get too far ahead is what people call it. It's interdimensions.

Speaker 1: 2:15

One second Before you do that.

Speaker 1: 2:17

I don't mean to cut you off, but there's a there's a, there's a NYP tradition we do here, ben, you know how we interview here, right, abin? If you're on, if you're on, if you're checking out the, if you're on the chat right now, say yes, tell me, give me a one or something. So the way we traditionally interview is we ask a person you know how did they come up? Like, how, what was your start in Islam? Or where did you grow up? And then we take people through that journey. So so, where were you born and raised and did you start off Christian or Islamic? Do you come from an Islamic family?

Speaker 2: 2:57

I tell you where I was born and raised, you'll probably automatically assume what I grew up as like right in the middle of Georgia, middle Georgia. Assume what I grew up as like right in the middle of Georgia, middle Georgia. So definitely a Christian, and, not to joke about it, but a Southern Baptist Christian at that. And so we lived that lifestyle for what 20, say about? Like 21 to 25 years or so. But that 21 to 25 year mark was kind of not even gonna lie, it was kind of great. It started to kind of walk away from the church at that point and you know, might've gotten into a few things that might've been that healthy for me or beneficial for my future and whatnot.

Speaker 2: 3:33

And I kept bumping into these two brothers and a wife at these Pan-African events for kind of coming into Islam, brother Dawood and Brother Nafisa Ali from what we say the best place to be, mohammed Mosque number 93, right here in Macon, georgia. But I kept bumping into them at Pan-African festivals and things like that. And you know, I think my brother could smell a little alcohol on me from back then. You know it was a thing, but no, I didn't. And some of the things he was saying like typical, trying to invite you to the masjid paper bean pie and whatnot but he would always hit me with something like I've been through what you're going through, but I know where you're at right now.

Speaker 2: 4:23

It ain't no fun being there I got cleaned up from all that. When I came into this he would talk to me like that after the typical introduction and I almost denied him three times, like Jesus and Judas right, until that third time, peace Actually wound up going to the mosque with him and it was probably one of the best experiences in my life at that point because I had never I never entered one and never seen or know anything about it other than you know Malcolm X and whatnot growing up.

Speaker 1: 4:54

Okay, so let's take it. Let's, let's rewind. So, uh, you grew up in a uh uh parent household mother and father, two parent household. Mother and father, two parent household. Grew up in a two parent household. You guys, your parents, raised you on, raised you in a Baptist church. Okay, Then you get into Islam. What was your parents reaction to you getting into Islam? Breaking up a little bit, bro. You're breaking up your wifi is a little it was a fun experience.

Speaker 2: 5:40

Wait, you still breaking up, bro. I'm glad I can laugh at it now and look back at something that we all done, kind of grown through. You hear me you still breaking up, bro. I'm glad I can laugh at it now, you know, and then look back at something that we we all done kind of grown through.

Speaker 1: 5:48

You hear me you're breaking up. Okay, now we're better. Now I think we're back on track just a moment is this excuse me y'all. Y'all know technical difficulties. That's how the internet is.

Speaker 2: 6:09

I can look back at it and kind of laugh at it now from the ones and zeros man. Sometimes the ones and zeros get flipped around and go hey why. But we both kind of learned from the experience because it was kind of alien for them at first, right To see, just be able to dress differently, pray indifferently. And I learned another language and now my views about Jesus are slightly different and even though it's slightly different, that's more than enough to kind of put this big divide between a primarily Christian family and the only Muslim person in the family at all. So a lot of it just came from, you know, not understanding and it being the first time somebody comes around them like that, and then it also being a relative that was raised up in the church, I figured they probably had a lot of questions. What made you want to leave? Do you not believe in Jesus? No more Stuff like that pops up. Some of those questions I would have looked at as hard questions back then, which some of them I did look at as hard questions. I'm glad we had them now because we have a better understanding.

Speaker 2: 7:21

Muslims don't not like Jesus. Muslims, you won't never catch a Muslim disrespecting you know, because in order to be a Muslim, do you have to believe in Allah, the books, the messengers that Allah sent. Allah sent Muhammad and Jesus, right, so you can't leave either of the two out. And little stuff like that is things that they didn't know about Islam. So giving little nuggets like that along the way kind of led me like okay, so he's still praying more, that's good. He ain't hanging out with so-and-so in the past anymore, that's good Dang. He is changing. Nah, brother, I can't give up that part, though it took some time for them to grow into the change and notice I'm different and definitely better than who I was to where. I'm not going to say I didn't feel accepted then, but now they're a lot more comfortable with you. Know what this system is? Uh, has allowed me to become compared to you.

Speaker 1: 8:15

Know where I was Now you know, um, um, oh, your mom and dad still together. Yeah, that's peace. So now I just want to say this real quick Just as you know, when I'm on these podcasts, my thing is I'm going to be myself, regardless of whom or what, whether I'm on the podcast or not on the podcast. But you made reference to, you know, when you got into Islam, your parents noticed that. You know you changed. Now here's the thing with me when I got into the 5% teachings and the lessons and things like that, and you know, I was told I was God and I started to internalize that because I wasn't brought into the teachings right in exact the proper way. What it did was it made me an egomaniac going in.

Speaker 2: 9:18

you know what I'm saying, you know so probably one of my parents had those feelings because I was. Initially it was. It was a hard shift, you know, and it took me a while to grow into understanding to then be able to explain it to him, you know, so I see where you're coming from that right, right, exactly.

Speaker 1: 9:35

So now did you have an email? So you, yeah, you did. You had a mentor that helped you through the process, right, so? So, um, when you got introduced to this, you spoke to your family about it. They noticed the change. What else changed in your life, was it? I mean, how did you deal with the alcoholism? I don't know if you were alcoholic, but I mean you were drinking at that time. But how did you just cut cold turkey?

Speaker 2: 10:07

Oh, I definitely tried, Definitely tried, but it was. It's a, it's a process, almost kind of with like, uh, uh, giving up certain foods. It's a, it's a process. And then, uh, the learning of the five daily prayers is a process too. So, you know, as soon as you come in and take your shahada, they'll expect for you to all right, brother, no more baking, no more alcohol, no more gambling, no more women. And you know it's a process because Islam consists of a large corpus of applicable and pragmatic knowledge. So they can't hit somebody with that all at once, because it could be overwhelming. Right, it was a motivational process to slowly but surely stop. You know, get stronger with. No, I don't need any of that. Let me get 20 on, pump five, and then you know it's gone on with the rest of the day. But that time, 10 years prior, it might have been a little more difficult.

Speaker 1: 10:56

Got you. So now you stop drinking and you know there was a gradual process, right? What age was this?

Speaker 2: 11:07

there was a gradual process, right? What age was this? This was that same kind of a kind of gray area, that 21 25 year old time frame. Because you know, I'm kind of out of the church at that point, I'm kind of trying to figure stuff out. But you know, I don't have a spiritual base at that moment at all, not during that time frame. So it wasn't really an ethical or moral system or uh, but wasn't upholding the dietary laws or anything. So it wasn't um, to me back then I guess it wasn't a bad thing, you know, as long as you don't get messed up.

Speaker 1: 11:34

But right, okay. So now, okay, when did you? When do you say you would? You were officially rooted in islam, where you were praying five times, five times a day. You were officially rooted in Islam where you were praying five times a day. You were reading the Quran, dealing with the Hadiths. You were entrenched in the teachings, in the religion.

Speaker 2: 11:56

I'm about late 20s, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32.

Speaker 2: 12:01

I was pretty heavy into the orthodoxy during those years and that's when I got the help from the imam, saw me reading this huge Quran book, but obviously I can't read Arabic at that point because I'm admiring the beautiful calligraphy and stuff.

Speaker 2: 12:15

And he asked me I'm like no, I just took shahad a couple months ago, I can't read it. And he offered to teach me Arabic. We would meet like Tuesdays and thursdays at like 9 to 10 or 9 to 10, 30 or so, basic, uh, letter recognition, individual letters, how to pronounce the letters and then how to connect them that's a different science and how to recognize them as words. So another process still still because Arabic's tough. But what I can say is he mentioned something that I still feel to this day that learning a new language is almost like it rewires certain neurons in your mind. Oh yeah, if you would have lived my whole life and not attempt to learn a new language, there are certain neural connections that would have never connected with me having to learn that language and those connections allowed things to happen up here that would have never been able to happen if I wouldn't have stretched that tensile ability and made a connection.

Speaker 3: 13:16

He had a Prophet Muhammad moment. Ron, when Jabril said to read and he was an illiterate, he said I can't read. He said look at the paper, just keep reading.

Speaker 2: 13:27

So that sounds.

Speaker 3: 13:27

I understand what you're saying when it reconnects with your brain because, you know, here in the Western world we're so accustomed to reading from left to right, and from there it's right to left, which also, you know, changes the sequence of things, how we view things.

Speaker 2: 13:39

I understand where you're coming from. I think we're all about in the same age group, weren't we in elementary and middle school when, all of a sudden, cursive just went away? They stopped teaching cursive.

Speaker 3: 13:50

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:52

A generation after us might not be able to write cursive. That's kind of a similar system of connecting letters recognizing an individual, and now you can darn decipher what you want from one language to another because you can write it in a different form, Right.

Speaker 1: 14:11

So now, okay, now you're entrenched. Now, what about? I'm speaking for myself. I mean, as a man growing up, women were important to me. I'm sure women were important to Mikey Fever Right Hell yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:32

I see why you're going to die with your foot.

Speaker 1: 14:36

So now, now, now you're twenty one, twenty two, twenty five, thirty, like at this time in your life, you, you, you understand how to talk to girls, talk to women, talk to women, get them, get the number, you know what I mean, and have a relationship and things like that. How was that piece in your life dealing with Islam?

Speaker 2: 15:02

It did change a little bit. The type of woman that I might have an interest in definitely wound up changing, definitely one that has a little bit more class and culture about herself. Ain't nothing wrong with having fun every now and then, but not one that's for the streets. Just because you look good, there might have been a certain type that would have went after before Islam, but after the fact it's like she's fine now. Yeah for sure, for sure.

Speaker 2: 15:36

You use the ethics and morals of the system to immediately apply and be like I don't think that'll work. Now she's super Christian, or you know. No, she dresses in a way that I can't take her home to my folks dressed like that or no. She listened to a bunch of debaucherous music and she acts like the females in the music videos, like not to talk about ourselves, you know. But you know you start to look differently and you start to care about things and this person you're going to try to, you know, have something with, because if it works, then you know it works, and if you think you made a mistake a couple of years in, you can't get that time back, right For sure.

Speaker 1: 16:15

So now that the great, great answer. So now. So what were you doing? Were you dating just mainly Muslim women? And how does the dating process go? Because I know how the Nation of Islam does it Like you have to court a woman. You know you guys have to really get to know each other. It's like almost a military. The way they come together is what they do in the Nation of Islam. In terms of relationships, it is phenomenal.

Speaker 3: 16:43

It's phenomenal, it's all mental, it's spiritually mental.

Speaker 1: 16:47

Your knowledge base, your will and not only that, everybody, they kind of come around them, they help them. You know what I'm saying. So how is it the same way in our Islam?

Speaker 2: 17:02

That goes back to indigenous stuff. With our Islam it's structured, kind of similar. Let's say, if there was a cute girl in the mosque, what am I looking at girls in the mosque for? But there's a cute girl in that community that comes to the imam and, you know, tell the imam about my interest. You know, let me know of a good way to go about doing it. Maybe speak to her dad or approach her after prayer, or the imam might set up a meeting between me and the parents.

Speaker 1: 17:28

Almost the same type of structure Hold on. This is how it's supposed to go, right here, do you understand? If we all did this, we would avoid a lot of nonsense. Facts I was thinking the same thing too.

Speaker 3: 17:40

I was thinking the same thing too.

Speaker 2: 17:43

Essentially, what's happening is they're looking at both sides, like, how is this potential male structure, how is this potential female structure? Like, are they really living up to the principles? Okay, so if they want to go on a date something like I remember the imam told me a story about that A couple kind of came together into the masjid and they went out to eat at Applebee's. They're over on one side of Applebee's but the imam's on the other side at a table facing them directly, completely out of sight. They know he's there but they can't see him. So they're just in the moment. But they have to, let's just say, behave. They have to remain upright while they're out in public, with whatever kind of interest they might have with each other. And the imam looks at those things and almost seems like the same you're saying the nation. They have the same structure. Are they going to represent us? Like we need to be represented out here in public and society Got you so now we spoke on that piece Now, sunni and Sufi, what are the differences?

Speaker 2: 18:56

I'll say Sufism is just like the inner dimension or the more spiritual traditions. I don't know if they hear the noise in the background, but one of the main practices is what's called zikr and sufism, which is what we understand as mantras over here in the West, a similar spiritual system. It's also done in the mosque. Right, this concept is done in the mosque, but it's I won't say it's strict or rigid, but it's structured right. There's a hadith of Prophet Muhammad would recite this particular pasbih or this particular sikr, this particular mantra, after prayer. So it's customary all throughout the mosque. Everybody does these things that Prophet Muhammad did like, try to emulate them to the T and don't go anywhere further past that. But with sufism, with it being a little bit more on the inner tradition, uh, it kind of puts you in the mindset of what christian gnosticism is.

Speaker 2: 19:57

Okay yeah I put it all up in a whole as soon as I'm kind of like what christian gnosticism is essentially? Uh, the system of kabbalah we have Abjad, the same alphanumeric system of slackers and repeating numbers and whatnot. But with Sufism, with that same concept of repetitive prayers or mantras and whatnot, we understand that Hadith about the Prophet Muhammad doing this one particular mantra. After prayer he repeats SubhanAllah 33 times and Alhamdulillah 33 times. 33, right, and La ilaha illallah 33 times to equal up to 99. That equals 99 names of Allah. So now you're perfectly in line with this tradition, alhamdulillah.

Speaker 2: 20:42

But then Sufi will look a little bit deeper into the Quran, a little bit deeper into traditions, still keeping the same concept, right. But we'll remember and see like now Quran Allah did say Innala hawa malaykutu fuyusilum ar-lan, nabi ya'ari wa aladina wa al-manu sali wa alayhi wa salimu tasliman Subtitles Verily, allah and his angels send blessings upon the prophet, send blessings or send prayers, prayer beads. So, oh, you who believe, send prayers, peace and blessings upon him in abundance. So that Quran verse saying to do that same thing, take the same concept, but do it in abundance. Nothing wrong with that. 33 times, three repetition. But We'll take that same concept and go deeper. Let's say that alphanumeric system. If you take the Bismillah or Rahman Rahim in the beginning of the Quran and you turn those letters into numbers, the numerical formula is 786. In Saudi Arabia it's 787. In North Africa, west Africa, so a person would take a particular mantra and would literally sit and repeat it that particular number of times To equal up to the number of Bismillah Rahman, rahim. So some alchemy going on with that.

Speaker 2: 22:15

It's a wonderful science of the mind because that structure you get in the mosque, it opens you up to it. But the inner wisdom, the spiritual practices and some of the deepest stuff you get from Sufism opens the mind and the heart a little bit more. Because I like to look at this from the science of the mind perspective to explain it to folks, especially here in the South, and like imagine listening to this song on the radio that repeats all these negative things over and over and over and over. The chorus of that song is repetitive. So now you repeat that same thing again, with a different pitch or tone in the chorus, a certain number of times, over and over and over and over.

Speaker 2: 22:57

And if I look at a certain side of town, the society over there, not to talk about my people. But it's not that good over there. It's on the mind that's being produced in that society. But if a person would sit and it doesn't have to be it's got to be a prayer. There's certain songs I hear that you don't have to talk about robbing, killing, stealing and whatnot, but let's just say repeating a short prayer over and over.

Speaker 2: 23:22

What the person's doing is. They're not allowing their mind to focus on anything negative at all. They're repeating the prayer over and over and over and over. Peace to the God. And keeping that positive thought in the mind doesn't allow the mind to think of anything negative. It won't allow it to even think about kicking in nobody door all the other stuff that gets talked about on the radio at all and it keeps those channels open for some of the more spiritual traditions to tap in. Like they say, you open the mind of the higher spiritual realities. Wisdom from higher spiritual realities will get poured onto you from Allah. But if my mind is befuddled with you know, niggas, you know I ain't gonna hear Allah talking to me.

Speaker 1: 24:13

Got you, so now yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. So now, when we say, when you say the word Sunni and you say the word Sufi, would you happen to know the actual definition of the two?

Speaker 2: 24:29

Sunni. It'll come from this Arabic word that is ascribed to the Prophet Muhammad Sunnah. His Sunnah is like what we were just talking about the things he did, his ways of life, his ways of being, some of the things he said, some of the things he might have done, spiritual practices and whatnot. So the Muslims used those to emulate the prophet. They called themselves the Sunni. So that's where the name of Lip comes in. At Sufi, to keep that a little bit shorter, they say Sufi comes from the word wool because there were some companions of the Prophet Muhammad that would study in the inner traditions with him, that would sit on outside of the Prophet's mosque on this bench doing their spiritual practices, repeating their prayers over and over, while everybody else was praying Message. But those people would be sitting outside wearing their wool garments. So they say that's where the word Suf comes from. But remember that Kabbalah connection. Suf is linguistic, it connects to Sophia, same thing on the Greek side. So Sufi and Sophia, it's divine wisdom. On the feminine side, it's real life, sophia, that's that.

Speaker 1: 25:54

Oh, wow, so you're connecting it. That's peace. Oh man, we're getting deep. All right, so now I spoke to this brother on a plane last week and he says said Sufism came after Sunni. So you know, so was he correct.

Speaker 2: 26:19

That's almost like saying my body was made first and then my heart was made last. But we all know the heart was made first. Without the inner tradition and the inner wisdom, there can't be an exterior form at all. This thing was created from the thing on the inside. Can't nobody see it? It created this around itself for protection. So that's just like ignoring the thing on the inside. I don't see it like that. So would you say that just like ignoring the thing on the inside? You know, with, with you know I, I don't. I don't see it like that.

Speaker 2: 26:47

So would you say century, you right on you, right on, he said hey century, that's the the beginning of the golden age. But you know, you and you both know where they were at during that timeframe. Right, there was only one priesthood that could have given them the wisdom that would lead to this, uh, this golden age. Yeah, uh, what we call Sufism today. So the, the inner tradition, already existed before then. Uh, true enough, cause there's always been some types of societies. But as far as uh Islam goes, sufism did kind of get birthed. Uh, sufism did kind of get birthed and then Islam got wrapped around it.

Speaker 1: 27:27

That's the safe way to say it uh, oh, time out that, sorry, I'm going to send this to the brother later. He's going to go, hmm, so, alright, so you broke down Sufism, you broke down Sunni. So let's say I'm a newborn, so to speak, or, you know, a new, new follower, or what have you. And, uh, you know, I wanted to get into, uh, islam, right, and I want to get, I want to go straight to Sufism. Is that is that? Are there any prerequisites? Do you have to go Sunni before it goes Sufi?

Speaker 2: 28:11

And what are the differences in the lines? It is recommended to have a base. My shake shake off from the Obama from Senegal had a short aphorism. He says you have to get into the boat of the Sharia before you get into the ocean of the Hakiqat. And getting into the boat of the Sharia you know the vessel that will take you, but the Sharia is your do's and don'ts. You know the Islamic law how to pray, fasting and Ramadan and things like that. So it's a good thing to have at least a basic understanding of it so that it can be applied, because if a person goes and gets in the ocean without getting in the boat, they're liable to drown. I'm not too sure how deep that water is.

Speaker 1: 28:52

Okay, okay. So what are the differences? In the lines like, as far as the practice is concerned? So Sufis and Sunnis, they pray five times a day, okay, okay. And the Sufis and Sunnis, they pray five times a day, okay, okay. And the Ramadan? Of course, everyone does Ramadan. So what are the actual differences? When I go into the mosque, where do the Sunnis go and where do the Sufis go?

Speaker 2: 29:22

Oh, that's a nice question. I like that. I really like that, because obviously you won't be able to tell which one is a Sufi and the mosque or not.

Speaker 2: 29:31

I'm lying, possibly so. Or if you see some in the mosque with prayer beads that have extra beads on strings on the end. It's essentially kind of like an abacus. So if I'm going to do 787 prayers it's 100 beads on here. I know if I move seven of these down and I can mark 50 right here, which means 30 is about halfway between this bead and that bead. I know right where to stop at to hit that exact number. But that's a science that is not really talked about or done much in the mosque.

Speaker 2: 30:15

But you might catch somebody with a pair of beads on that might have some extra counters on the end. And if you I almost faced the line with Lath and have them in the prayer over with just to see what's up. Or some that do the henna in the beard that particular tradition has been going on ever since Ramsey the second, so that even ain't, but that's another kind of a sign you might be able to tell okay. Okay, leather belts around like a cummerbund style. Might look kind of odd to see a male wearing like one of these long draping of, but they have this big, thick leather belt wrapped around the midsection. Other than that, they just look like everybody else in the mosque. But it's just little stuff that if you notice you can be like yeah, he'd be, like he was saying.

Speaker 2: 31:13

Both Sunnis and both Sufis pray five times a day. Do the Hajj in their lifetime, if they can. They fast in Ramadan, they pay Zakat or charity and observe all the pillars of the Orthodox. Do they fast in Ramadan, they pay zakat or charity and I'm sorry about all the things that the Orthodox do.

Speaker 1: 31:36

There's just additional things that the Orthodox might not do, that you might get some soupies doing. Okay, Now the call to prayer. Years ago, I had an organization called the universal indigo children and we would hold our meetings and all our like youth programs at a Muslim school and we would be around Muslims all day and we would always hear the call to prayer. And the call to prayer for me is so it's like the most beautiful sound you could ever hear. Right, what are they actually saying during the call to prayer?

Speaker 2: 32:26

Good one. It's actually the same thing, repeated a couple of times, but you'll hear Allah Hu Akbar, allah Hu Akbar, because God is the greatest, god is the greatest. And then it's repeated again Allah Hu Akbar, allah Hu Akbar. God is the greatest, god is the greatest. That's my bad witness. There is no God but Allah. And then it's repeated again. I bear witness that there is no God but Allah. I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and that's repeated twice again Messenger of Allah. And that's repeated twice again.

Speaker 2: 33:08

The second half of calling is Hayya al-Salah, which is Hayya means come to Salah, come to Salah, come to prayer. That's repeated twice. Hayya al-Salah, come to your success. Salah rhymes with Salah, but Filah with the F means success. It's repeated twice again and Allahu Akbar, allahu Akbar, god is the greatest, god is the greatest. La ilaha illallah. So it's beautiful, especially when it's done. They don't like to call it a song, but when it's done, they don't like to call it a song, but when it's done melodically, you know, with the inflections and whatnot, I don't know what it is about it, man. It brings Christians to tears when they hear it for the first time. It really, really, really hits.

Speaker 3: 34:00

It hits man, it hits hard. All I can add is that the scientific aspect of it because you know, I said this before like the body is, you know, consuming mostly of water, it's built the most so when those sounds resonate, it goes through your body. You vibrate higher. It's etching to you as you say it moves you to tears it lifts. It lifts up your spirit and it's beautiful when they do the call and every everyone is. It's like how the church tolls the bell at noon or at three o'clock the sound goes through.

Speaker 2: 34:26

And he says man, that's where this tradition came from, because the Muslims needed a way to call themselves to the mosque, but they didn't want to use traditions that were from places where they came from Right. They didn't want to call people to the mosque with the bells or from the bell tower or the way the Christians and Jews did. So the adhan wound up being used to kind of be a distinguishing factor between you know all the parts of the Abrahamic triangle. At that point in time, nothing to say nothing wrong with the bells and stuff, because you know what it did with the bells over here.

Speaker 2: 35:03

But, yeah, at a time, that a time, it's different and you know, even even as a Sufi, it was still doing the same thing. I remember my first Ramadan, maybe a year or two, in the study of Sufism, no matter what kind of deep wisdom or you know what kind of deep teachers, or you know Chris O'Terry and all of who we're getting into, it's still it's the Psalms 133 moment, for real, because you, you know that there are two people beside you, right, but there's rows and rows and rows and rows of brothers behind you, to the left, to the right, in front, everywhere, and everybody is on the same accord, focused on the same thing man, you said that song 133, that's dope, I like when you went.

Speaker 3: 35:48

It's okay, I got you right. I see, I see where you're going with that, but yeah, it is multiple passports, exactly.

Speaker 2: 36:00

I remember something happening during the orthodox time frame, to kind of make it, you know, bring it all together during Ramadan, during the Orthodox time frame. I remember hearing a brother behind me 10-15 minutes into this prayer, because those Ramadan prayers are real, real long, so you're going to be standing for a long time in between praying and bowing. So 10-15 minutes in we done prayed and bowed and prostrated once and stand back up. Now it's another section of the Quran that's going to get recited. Sometimes people have something on them or they're going through something.

Speaker 2: 36:35

So when this verse hits all of a sudden man did the tears just start to fall? And that was my first. People have something on them or they're going through something. So when this verse hits all of a sudden man, the fear just started to fall. And that was my first time experiencing that. Like is this brother behind me? Focus on the prayer? But I can't help but to hear like brother just touched right now man, Like wow, Like that never happened to me when I was in the church, Like I ain't never caught the Holy Ghost or nothing Like that.

Speaker 2: 36:57

That never happened to me when I was in the church Like I never caught the Holy Ghost or nothing like that never happened.

Speaker 2: 37:03

But a few years later, that same experience. Yeah, that's saying something. But that same experience happened a couple of years later in the mosque. I got to study in Sufism, sitting there praying what? 30 or 40 minutes into this particular prayer, the imam gets to a certain section of the second chapter of the Quran that I had memorized at that point in time. So everything that was leading up to it I could pick pieces out, you know, I could, you know, put together.

Speaker 2: 37:27

You know what's going on in the story, because I wasn't good with it when he got to verse 285 and 286, I was the dude behind somebody that was crying and couldn't hold it in. I honestly can't even explain what made it start. It was like I know that, I know that my subconscious had the Arabic over here and the English right here, while the imam was saying it on the loudspeaker in that same tone and couldn't hold it in, your mom was saying it on the loudspeaker in that same tone and you just couldn't hold it in. No more man, stuff like that's life-changing. So, regardless of what people believe, experience, another tradition or a culture here.

Speaker 3: 38:09

It's the tonality of it. Like you mentioned, with Sufism, it mostly focused on the metaphysical, mystical side of Islam as you put it right. So that experience you had. It's the tonality, the recitation of the certain surahs, as you put it, or certain, as you say, mantras. How about the aspect of, with purification, like what's it called fana, that's?

Speaker 2: 38:39

how about the aspect of um with purification, like the, what's it called Fana? I said, uh, well, that Fana, that Fana really is a Sufi, uh, metaphysical teaching, uh, the purification, uh, the, the, the Wudu, the washing of the hands.

Speaker 3: 38:51

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:52

A lot of those um, a lot of those, I hate to say, like the core parts of the tradition. They never go anywhere. So if I was sitting and I might have ate something, I shouldn't have ate and had a little bit of gas. There's a tradition where if a person releases gas, then that breaks their voodoo. They then get up and go make their voodoo again so that they're in a state of ritual purity. They then get up and go make their wudu again, so that they're in a state of ritual purity. Just in case, you know, prayer comes up, you know, or something might hit you and you might want to go do a voluntary prayer. You just might want to go talk to allah yourself, but you're a little soiled, you know. So it's good to go through that ritual purity. Same thing from sunniism to Sufism. Some traditions might, what seems like, take it and kind of run with it, because some of these traditions are African traditions, but the basics of it is still there Washing your hands three times, from the hands up to the elbows, three times the forehead, ears, nose, washing out the mouth behind the neck and the feet.

Speaker 2: 39:59

So water is essentially touching all of the spots of the body. That's going to touch the prayer rug. So water over my hands because I'm going to go down like this. My hands are going to touch the prayer rug. Face, nose, forehead is going to touch the prayer rug. Some kind of frown against putting your elbow on the prayer rug. Some kind of frown against putting your elbow on the prayer rug and lift it up a little bit. They tell you not to sit like a dog, so don't put your elbow on, but still your elbow is going to be resting on your knees or on your thighs. So every part of you that's either touching a part of you that's touching the part of the prayer rug has to be in ritual purification.

Speaker 3: 40:45

Can I touching a part of you that's touching the part of the prayer rug has to be in ritual purification. Being that you went through sunni orthodox islam, why is it that some people tend to look at sufism as not the purest form of islam? Because I have heard that they're like well, that's. That's not Islam. It's the best way to go Sunni.

Speaker 2: 41:00

Why is that? I've never heard that one.

Speaker 3: 41:03

I've heard people say they don't practice that.

Speaker 2: 41:07

They're like oh, it's better to go this. You know, some of the practices can be looked at as what they call binda in Islam, and binda is innovation, like something that's done extra or on top, or something that we know the prophet didn't do. But taking the small thing and, you know, blowing it up, like that concept of doing your mantra 99 times versus doing a mantra 787 times, it's still the same practice. Some can get and I can only speak for myself because I was there to get so caught up in the tradition, right the way that anything else outside of that tradition is not only alien, it's just almost like it could be damaging to the tradition. If too many other people get to it, people will start to look at this spiritual tradition or this spiritual practice Dang, that brother got some nice prayer beads or what's that? Juju pouch around that brother's neck, certain things like that. They'll look at like, no, that's not Islam. Then again, a lot of those traditions, fortunately, can be found in the histories and the traditions.

Speaker 1: 42:13

Now let me ask you this being that this platform has got Moors, you got five percenters on here. We have everything. So in the eyes of someone in Islam let's say, your brothers and your mosque and things like that are other people in what they would say Islam. They would say Islam. Would that be regarded as you know what? Do they call it infidels, or the K word Kufar.

Speaker 2: 42:47

Yes, disbelief, kufar is almost like the religious N word. In that case, right, as much as I hate to say it, there's people like that that do exist out there that will look at the NOI. They will look at the Morris High's temple as Uphar or Capra's and really stand on it. They'll go cherry-picking and pulling Hadith to verify what and why. On the opposite side, I might be doing the same thing to defend them, because they're still saying that there's still tradition, just a wisdom that can be pulled. They'll verify the things that are going on today. Right, like the. How they say Muhammad the last and final prophet.

Speaker 2: 43:38

The Arabic word for and is not in that statement. Like how they say Muhammad's the last and final prophet. The Arabic word for and is not in that statement. Fatim will not be in at all. It's not.

Speaker 2: 43:49

Fatim is literally a seal, like a stamp. The caliph would wear a ring with his signet on it. The ruler at the time would wear a ring with his signet on it. The ruler at the time would wear a ring with his signet on it, that particular seal, or a seal as in. You take the concept of a magic square and each of the squares are a prophet from a particular Abrahamic tradition and the prophet Muhammad is in the middle of that magic square, the seal. So all of the prophets that came before were culminated in his example.

Speaker 2: 44:25

So when they say seal in English it can be left blank and bare bones. But when we look at that word from an Arabic perspective, that language is so deep I have to keep a lexicon, a couple translation tools and a dictionary open at times, because sometimes words can be so long with multiple letters you got to know how to break it apart, to see its constituent parts, to even know what it says, before putting it back together again. But the same thing with Qatun. It doesn't mean last and final at all. It kind of means the collective seal of the essence of all of the other prophets are sealed within this one. And then the example that he came and left. So a Sufi might understand that. But if I were to say that to a Muslim, no, we'd be arguing right now or he'd be arguing, because I don't want to argue with him. I won't right now.

Speaker 1: 45:21

what about also? Um, I was watching, uh, jesse peters speak to a muslim on his platform, a muslim woman, and she said, uh, he said he, he doesn't want to be a Muslim because Muslims, you know, they want to dominate the world. That's the focus. So, and then the woman said you know what? I can't deny that, that's the truth. So how would you say? What would you think?

Speaker 2: 45:49

That particular woman might want to dominate the world, but the thing is she's the only one person, but for the most part, man, Muslims either A want to be left alone because we go through so much as it is, regardless of what community we come from. If you say you're a Muslim in a certain side of the town right here, you're going to get looked at different by the other skin complexion.

Speaker 2: 46:13

I don't understand why a person would not want to be we don't want to take over the world. We might not want to be. We don't want to take over the world. We might even want to be left alone, or we want to have our own community outside of all the mess that's going on. So with perspectives like that, it's almost like most Muslims just want to be like Jesus. He said you got to be in the world and not of it. So I'm stuck over here in America as much as I want to be here right now. If there was a community tight-knit, strong enough, close enough, financially backed enough we could have an area where we can work together and grow on and we don't have to worry too much about what goes on on the outside.

Speaker 1: 46:52

But if it wasn't for Islam certain Black folks wouldn't have them.

Speaker 2: 46:56

Concepts Can Elijah teach us about the importance of getting us some land after he met with MLK and then MLK's tone switched up about the black man owning things and getting land and working together growing their own food?

Speaker 1: 47:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, got you Okay. So we spoke about now the zicker beads. I think you kind of grazed over that a little bit, but you know, um, I want to, I want to get a little deeper into that. So, the the zicker beads. Now, when you're saying the mantra and you're moving the beads down first off, how long does that take? How long does that take? Are you moving? You're not moving. The whole necklace. Is it a necklace? It's not a necklace, right?

Speaker 2: 47:49

It can be one. It's long enough to wear around the neck, but it's a hundred beads on this particular one and, yes, go around more than once.

Speaker 1: 48:01

Okay, so you go around more than once, and then, how long does that take?

Speaker 2: 48:05

It depends on the particular spiritual practice. Like a Sheikh or like a math teacher Enlightener would use that same alphanumeric formula to take certain names of Allah right and figure out their alphanumeric equivalent, based off of what that name of Allah means, resonates or vibrates. As we give that to a disciple as a practice with that particular number, so they do that particular prayer with that name of Allah and that exact number. Some of those numbers can be pretty short, like 20. Wadud, for the all-loving one, equals 20. But the Bismillahirrahmanirrahim altogether equals 786. Okay, certain names like Al-Hani, that equals up like 1,000, 1,100 and something. Certain names like al-Hani, that equals up, I think it's like a thousand, a thousand, one hundred and something hold on.

Speaker 1: 49:04

So you're using the beads. You're saying what exactly the names?

Speaker 2: 49:12

like this entire time I've been using one, one short prayer, one short mantra. Astaghfirullah in Arabic, but it just means I seek the forgiveness of Allah, but the entire time it's just been going on back here. So whenever I Astaghfirullah, astaghfirullah, I need to say something, pause for a little bit, but then when I'm getting back to center I'll start for a while. It's always going on in the subconscious. So if that's always going on back here, it helps make sure I don't know crap. Come out of this. This right here, right.

Speaker 1: 49:51

So so when you say God forgiveness, you saying uh, I seek the forgiveness of Allah. That's what the name means. So when you're saying that mantra, what is that actually doing for you? Is that soothing you? Is that bringing you at peace?

Speaker 2: 50:09

It's kind of from that same side, so the mind perspective, but from an Islamic flavor you mentioned it was either my imam or brother Dawood was saying that sometimes you don't know if you've done a bad deed. Sometimes we get so caught up in our daily life where you don't know that you did something that Allah was like I can't believe you just did that. So always seek forgiveness of Allah because did something that Allah was like I can't believe he just did that you know. So always seek forgiveness of Allah because Allah is ever forgiving. That's I forget what surah that particular ayah or that verse is in, but that's a part of the Quran which says always seek the forgiveness of Allah because Allah is always forgiving.

Speaker 2: 50:54

So even if I did like get a little stressed out today and went to the library to try to calm down a bit, but then I heard footsteps behind me coming up to the door and I looked at my reflection in the glass door and I saw a lady walking about four or five footsteps behind me and I just walked into the library, right, what would it have hurt me to wait them four footsteps to hold the door for that lady in that example? So if I was stressed out in that example. You know I didn't catch that. I might have did that. You know I was caught up in going to go get this book. I'm trying to seek forgiveness and repent for whatever it was, whether I know it or whether I don't know it.

Speaker 1: 51:41

Nice.

Speaker 2: 51:43

Small, large and in between.

Speaker 1: 51:45

So it makes you more humble.

Speaker 2: 51:49

It does help keep you centered Because, again, it's a positive, and it's a positive repetitive mantra and it's also a short prayer too, and then it's a pragmatic prayer, Like I am seeking the forgiveness of Allah. So I have to be active in doing what I'm supposed to do right and not doing what I'm not supposed to do, so I don't have to turn around and seek forgiveness again. But guess what I'm going to do tomorrow? I'm going to seek some more forgiveness. I don't know. There might have been something I did yesterday that I didn't say. You know what man I shouldn't have did that. Let me go tell someone. So I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: 52:27

And it keeps you like right and exact in your mind, like checks and balances. You know Right.

Speaker 2: 52:33

In real time.

Speaker 1: 52:35

Yeah, you don't really miss anything. You know, SPS man, I get it, I totally get it. So now, when it comes to like customs, right? Uh, of course, women fully covered, Hajib um, and for men, men, they don't necessarily have to be fully covered and they don't have to have a jib on. So what are the customs for men, you know? Like, for instance, when the summer comes, you know, I noticed men, Muslim men they will wear a short sleeve shirt, but they wouldn't necessarily wear a tank top.

Speaker 2: 53:16

You don't never catch them wearing shorts either, right, nothing really above like an inch or two above the ankle, and even that can be seen as too high in some traditions. So the men, it's almost always pants. No, tight, fit pants like what's going on today at all, loose, fitting pants so you can breathe, and similar with the shirt, so it's not tight and revealing. You're going to have to get ready to go to the mosque and you don't want to have to try to pray in spandex or pray in tight jeans and whatnot, because, again, the man's supposed to be covered up. But you know it's a little bit different in the moment we don't have, you know, much, you know we don't have things to cover up like they do. So the type of dress with them is a little bit different.

Speaker 2: 54:08

With men it's just you can have the short sleeves. You won't catch any praying in a tank top at all, because the only time you'll really see the exposed shoulders of a Muslim man is if he's on the hot. He has his, you know, the white cloth wrapped around him. One shoulder is usually exposed, but other than that you usually won't see it unless you personally know a Muslim and y'all been friends, for you know Lord knows how long y'all go play basketball or something, but at that point it's just people playing basketball, right?

Speaker 1: 54:42

Right, okay, so and and you know what's the difference between the head covered hajib for women and the face?

Speaker 2: 54:53

It's the hijab, at least the head and the hair front and then the side of the hairline. Most of the hijabs can kind of hang down to cover up any remaining hair in the back, but most are usually pretty careful to try to hide it or tie it up ornate so it don't look like it's there a a niqab. A niqab is a. Niqab is the one that covers up the whole face right when we just see the eyes. Those traditions come from a little bit further east. You know they're not forced, like most would say.

Speaker 2: 55:31

A lot of the women actually do choose to wear it because from their culture it gives them a sense of protection. They they don't have to worry about the crying eyes of men outside of society. So it gives them a different level of status over there because ain't nobody looking at them like we look at women over here. The vertica I think the vertica is probably one of the most extreme ones because it's just full black, everything you can see through the face covering, but from the outside, looking in, like all you just really just sees it's just all black.

Speaker 1: 56:10

Okay, now we're running out of time, so, but I want to give you a last question and hopefully you'll come back. You know like to have you on at least twice a month. That'd be real dope. You know what I mean. Just like that'll be peace. You know we have everybody else on this. This has got to be on this platform. So now, as far as polygamy and monogamy, you knew that question was coming. Come on now.

Speaker 2: 56:42

You say the best for last. Right, we're trying to emulate the Prophet Muhammad, right, he had multiple wives. He had four wives, four girls, then boys. I think he had one male son, but son died young. But that particular tradition comes from following the Prophet Muhammad. He had four wives.

Speaker 2: 57:06

So if a man is able to, that's a catch. If a man's already married to a wife and he's like, hey, I want to know the wife, it's not going to be that easy, they say. The man has to make the first wife extremely happy. So the family has to be set. The family has to be set there already, has to be a structure there. You can't be needing for anything. You can't be hurt and be trying to plan to go get another wife and even with that y'all still finna go talk to the imam at the mosque about it. That same type of structure is still there to make sure whatever families are coming together are able to do so. So it ain't as easy as people might think it is over here, because you really gotta be tight with the one you with so much to the fact that where she don't mind there being another one in the household.

Speaker 1: 58:02

Oh, I like that, I like how you put that, I love how you put that man, because it's like yo, I'm just going to go be Muslim, bro, you know.

Speaker 2: 58:13

Some might say that and they get there and realize how hard it is. They're like I got to read what man. I can't read that quickly stuff. Some might say that and they get there and realize how hard it is. They're like I gotta read what man I can't read.

Speaker 1: 58:21

That's quickly stuff I want four wives, so I'm gonna be muslim. You know, you know that sometimes the motivation is bad, you know, you know. But uh, man, that was, yeah, teach, she said. She said, sister said teach, yeah, man, that sounds like a good deal for the women. That sounds way more balanced as opposed to. You know, I'm a Muslim. Now I'm allowed to just have four wives. I'm going to pick that one, that one, that one and that one. Now you know what I'm saying. It ain't going to be easy. One, that one, that one and that one. Now you know what I'm saying. It makes way more sense. But we're out of time, brother, thank you for coming out this evening. I really appreciate you, man. Hopefully you'll come back on. We'll keep you on and, you know, just go deeper into the subject of Islam. If you have anything you want to say to the people, you have the floor.

Speaker 2: 59:24

If nobody watching has looked up or researched Sheikh Ahmedou Bamba from Senegal, he's mentioned in chapter 2 in the essay that the life and treatment of Master Farid Muhammad, third paragraph on down. So there's a connection between Islam and Sufism right there.

Speaker 1: 59:43

Got you On that note. Thank y'all for coming out this evening. I really appreciate you. Everybody in the chat also know remember, comment like, share, subscribe, super chat, super chatter, super chatter. We need it, we need the help. As I said earlier, earlier, we're trying to get this podcast to grow and keep growing and and bring on guests like this brother right here. Thank y'all for coming out this evening. We are out of here and peace, Peace.