Nation of Islam vs The Final Call: What’s the Difference?

The fault line isn’t just history—it’s authority. We sit down with Minister Kevin Ali to unpack how the Nation of Islam’s original blueprint under Elijah Muhammad diverged from the structure and practice of Final Call Inc under Louis Farrakhan. What begins as a timeline quickly turns into a deeper look at sovereignty, incorporation, and who gets to define doctrine for a people trying to build a nation.

We walk through the critical shifts: ministers once reported only to Elijah Muhammad and met with him regularly; after 1975, incorporation and captain-led chains reshaped governance. What sounds bureaucratic is spiritual. We explore how corporate status invites state oversight, how hierarchy changes the pulpit, and how even the color of a suit signals discipline and duty. From there, we dive into language and ritual—why the Messenger insisted on Farad, not a more orthodox pronunciation, and why Jumuah or janazah rites were not adopted. These choices were designed to make a distinct Islam for Black life in America, rooted in five core principles yet “altogether new.”

The conversation intensifies around prayer and titles. Elijah Muhammad taught prayer to Master Farad Muhammad, a line that some in Final Call Inc have blurred or denied. Meanwhile, titles like messenger, apostle, and messiah applied to Farrakhan create theological confusion for those who hold to one Messiah and one Messenger. We don’t stop at doctrine. We address auditing and Dianetics, questioning both their results and their symbolism, and we examine the optics of Masonry or Greek affiliations through the lens of allegiance and sovereignty.

This is a direct, respectful, and evidence-driven exploration meant to inform, not inflame. If you care about the Messenger’s blueprint, organizational power, and how beliefs become structures that shape everyday life, this conversation will challenge and clarify. Listen, share with someone who’s curious, and tell us: where do you draw the line? Subscribe for part two, drop a review, and join the live chat to add your voice.

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening And Mission Of NYP Talk Show
• 0:39 Setting The Topic And Guest Intro
• 3:18 Defining Final Call Inc Versus NOI
• 6:30 Silas Muhammad And Other Branches
• 10:45 Organizational Structure And 501c3 Debate
• 15:40 Farrakhan’s Split From Wallace Muhammad
• 21:00 Incorporation, Newspapers, And Names
• 26:10 Titles, Doctrine Shifts, And Leadership Claims
• 31:20 Uniforms, Discipline, And Standards
• 36:30 Records, Cook County, And Corporate Oversight
• 40:05 Pronouncing The Savior’s Name
• 44:10 Orthodoxy Influence: Jumuah And Janazah
• 49:10 Prayer To Master Farad Muhammad
• 53:30 Messenger Versus Apostle And Messiah Claims

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:10

What's going on, everybody? Out there is Ron Brown, LMT, the People's Fitness Professional. Thank you guys for coming out this evening. Um, we have the Brother Minister Kevin Ali in the building to build about the nation of Islam versus the final call. What's the difference? Before we go into that, I'm gonna drop this commercial. And here we hold on, hold on, hold on. You gotta play this commercial.

SPEAKER_00: 0:38

This is important. Peace family. Welcome to NYP Talk Show. This is more than a podcast. It's a conscious platform rooted in truth and culture from the 5% nation, nation of Islam, Moorish movement, and Masonry. Our mission is to reclaim our narrative and uplift the African diaspora with real stories and real conversations. Support us through Super Chats during live shows, donations on Cash App, GoFundMe, Patreon, or BuzzSprout. And by refing our official merch, available on our website and right here on YouTube's merch shelf. Every dollar, every super chat, every hoodie builds the movement. This is NYP Talk Show.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29

All right, all right, all right. We're back, we're back, we're back. I wish I had the uh I wish I had the uh clapping sounds. I'm gonna get all of that back on my roadcaster, you know, to make it a uh more complete show. But anyway, we're here.

SPEAKER_03: 1:44

Brother, I I like that commercial.

SPEAKER_02: 1:47

Yeah, thank you. I like that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:48

It sets the right tone for the show. I love it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:51

Indeed. Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. So we're we're here, Minister Kevin Ali. We're gonna build on Nation of Islam versus the Final Call. Now, I'm not saying it's your for. I'm not saying it's your for. I'm just saying I've never heard this ever before until I met the brother Minister Kevin Ali. I've never heard of uh, I thought Farrakhan and his following was under the nation of Islam. Even technically, if we if we go into the lessons we speak technically, they are, right? But as far as the organization and the way it's structured, it's not quite like the uh uh um honorable minister, uh sorry, honorable Elijah Muhammad set it up, right? And and just to just to um give you a little history, the Moors have the same issue, if you know anything about the Moors. So some Moors say the Prophet Nobu Drew Ali set up the uh MST of A one way, and some Moors say no, they set it up another way, and sellouts came and took over, and there's a whole thing surrounding that. So it seems like it's kind of sort of the same thing in this case. So uh if you can give me some background of uh how did the nation of Islam change into the final call, that would really set it off.

SPEAKER_03: 3:22

Well, the the what we know as the final call incorporate is just the most uh nationally recognized organization or branch claiming the legacy of the honorable Elijah Muhammad and the Nation of Islam. You have uh Mr. Silas Muhammad out of Atlanta, you have uh you have others who have set up Nation of Islam organizations. You had what's the uh the brother in Oakland, who I'm forgetting, your black Muslim bakery, uh Yusuf Bey. Uh you've had the messenger's blood brother, John Muhammad in Shicai in uh Detroit. You had uh Jeremiah Shabazz who stuck with the messenger teachings. Lewis Farrakhan and his organization, which is known as the Final Call Incorporated as a 501c3, is just the most well-nationally known branch, if you will, of the nation of Islam that have represented under the teachings of the honorable Elijah Muhammad. Now, as you have pointed out, there have been many differences added to all those organizations, uh, in particular the final call incorporated.

SPEAKER_02: 4:24

Okay, so you mentioned some names. You mentioned Yusuf Bey, you mentioned Silas. Um, those are two names that I keep hearing uh going through my own personal journey. Um do you know anything about those brothers' organization and how that's set up, or no?

SPEAKER_03: 4:42

I don't know the details of Yusuf Bey's organization, just in general, that he was very uh prominent in the uh Oakland, San Francisco Bay Area. But exactly how it was set up, I could not tell you exactly. I know a little more about Silas Muhammad's organization. Uh, he is the chief executive officer of that lost found nation of Islam. Uh they in short, they the followers of Silas look to Mr. Silas Muhammad as the followers of Minister Farrakhan look to Minister Farrakhan in general. He is the the word amongst them. He he is the final say. Uh they believe that he is the fulfillment of several scriptural prophecies. And again, that's the contention that you know the messenger never said that either anyone else fulfilled these scriptures uh other than himself and the guide he represents, including Minister Farrakhan, including uh uh Mr. Silas Mohammed. All right. I got some people. Who by the way, we have very good relations with Mr. Silas Mohammed. He's always tried to be a brother to us who were trying to stick to strictly stick to what the messenger teaches, including with my mentor, mentors who are passed away, Minister John Muhammad and Minister David Bacha. Silas has always been very balanced. He's always Mr. Silas Mohammed's always been very balanced, always very brotherly, as well as his followers and brothers. They've always treated us with love and open arms and brotherhood.

SPEAKER_01: 6:03

Oh, wow, okay.

SPEAKER_03: 6:04

I can't say the same for others.

SPEAKER_02: 6:07

Wow, wow, wow. So Silas is still here or he's gone.

SPEAKER_03: 6:11

No, he's he's still he's still living. Uh he's he's still he's probably in his late 80s, early 90s, but he's still around. Uh he's still doing his work. I don't know where he lives. I've heard the last day he lives on one of the islands, uh, not Jamaica, but one of the Virgin Islands. I'm I'm not sure. But his accusation is still still in there working the work. He they do a lot of work with the United Nations in trying to get reparations for Afro descendants. Again, that's I don't agree with that work in particular from the perspective of Messenger, but I don't down that work either.

SPEAKER_02: 6:45

Right. Uh uh, thank you. Uh oh uh is this the sister saying, is it a sister? Uh saying uh uh um asalam alaykum walaikum salaam alaikum salaam peace to the god peace to god Rashan Allah Black Power uh Black Power Brother uh MBP new Black Panther Party. Peace to you, brother, peace to you. Uh so let's go into it. So um so Silas is still alive. I didn't know that. Okay, doing work in the Virgin Islands. This is some great information. Now, Yusuf Bey, how did he get Yusuf Bey from the Nation of Islam? That's you know, that's an interesting name.

SPEAKER_03: 7:29

He he started he started uh a business called Your Black Muslim Bakery sometime in the late 60s, early 70s there in Oakland. And then that somehow after 1975, after the departure of the messenger, he turned that bakery or transitioned that bakery to add in actual meetings and meeting times and lectures. That's the extent of what I know. I'm just not out there. We do we are in contact with a brother who was a member of uh of his organization out there in Oakland, but I've never he he doesn't have a presence really outside of the West Coast that I'm aware of. Okay, okay, and and he he he himself passed away several years ago. I know his his one of his blood sons had tried to keep the organization going. I don't know if that's still going like it once was.

SPEAKER_02: 8:17

Okay, okay. Uh, we got someone uh loves Silas Mohammed and John Muhammad can't mess with Yusuf Bey. He was messing. I don't even want to say that because I don't even know if that's true, right?

SPEAKER_03: 8:29

I and I I don't either. I though there's a there's always rumors about everybody. I don't we try not to deal with rumors, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 8:36

For real. That is not what I do. Um, so now we said Saiz Muhammad, we spoke about Yusuf Bey. I was just wondering how did he get from go from you know the messengers teachers into the Bay part, but I don't think maybe you don't know that. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03: 8:53

Well, the the messenger did name several of his a number of followers. He named them Bay, or as he or the correct way he said to pronounce it is Biah. That's that's not an unusual name for somebody in the nation of Islam. Bay is not an unusual name. Oh, yeah, the messenger did give that name out, yes.

SPEAKER_02: 9:10

Oh man, you uh you're gonna start some stuff with that one right there. Uh-oh. Whoa, whoa, hold on. That's a bomb. Whoa.

SPEAKER_03: 9:20

Biah, Sharif, Hassan, Hussein, uh uh Ali. There's a number of names that the messenger gave out. That you made uh uh Sham Sadin.

SPEAKER_02: 9:33

What about L? Any L's in there?

SPEAKER_03: 9:35

Not that I'm aware of. Okay, not that I'm aware of.

SPEAKER_02: 9:40

They are okay. Interesting, interesting. Uh Joetta. All right.

SPEAKER_03: 9:51

We know who that is. Oh, oh, right.

SPEAKER_02: 9:58

Right. So now um let's go into it. So final call, nation of Islam. The messenger passed on in uh 1975.

SPEAKER_03: 10:09

That's what the common belief is, correct?

SPEAKER_02: 10:11

Okay, the common belief is that he passed on in 1975. Once that happened, from what I know, Wallace Dean took the organization somewhere else. Right?

SPEAKER_03: 10:25

And almost almost immediately took it somewhere else. Within six months, took it completely somewhere else.

SPEAKER_02: 10:31

Okay, now when he was in the process of doing that, the organization of uh uh the the uh the nation of Islam was under what? Was it a 501c3? Was it how was it structured? Do you know?

SPEAKER_03: 10:46

I don't you're talking about under Wallace still post-centered.

SPEAKER_02: 10:50

No, no, under under uh uh the minister.

SPEAKER_03: 10:53

I don't know when I don't know when he got his 501c3, but that was what Wallace did. Wallace took uh the quote unquote nation of Islam, named it Muslim Mosque Incorporated or Mosque Cares, whatever he named it, and made it a 501c3. That opened when you when you incorporate under the devil's uh laws, you make the secretary of state a de facto member of your board, and then they are now allowed, and you are by law required to file certain reports, have certain officers say send financial information. And if your every I is not crossed and every every T is not dotted, you are in trouble, and that's what and that's how the that's how America, that's how the devil drugged Wallace's organization in the probate and broke apart all of the businesses. The messenger never had us under no nonprofit status, under no under no 51c3, under no TIN or EIN or tax ID or social security number, none of that. We are not that we are a nation.

SPEAKER_02: 12:03

Yeah, a ben a ben, that's what is exactly what he's talking about, brother. I'm laughing because if more see this right now, they would agree with you a hundred percent. Some more, some more would agree with you a hundred percent. So, yes, okay. So so before it turned into well, 501c3 after Wallace took over, what was it? Like, how was it structured? Was it was it just like uh under the honorable Elijah Muhammad?

SPEAKER_03: 12:36

Yes, the honorable Elijah Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. The black man is the original man, the Asiatic black man is the original, maker, owner, creamer of the planet earth, god of the universe. We operate off of divine law. This supersedes any constitutional or regional or country law, it is divine law. Our mandate, our manifest comes direct from Almighty God Allah. We don't need America or the devil's paperwork or his tax ID number, even though we are by nature, which is a nation.

SPEAKER_02: 13:13

Where the Moors at right now, the Moors are not on right now, except for a Ben. A Ben, you're the only Moore on this joint right now. You gotta you gotta talk to me in the chat, brother, because he's he's basically saying a lot of what the Moors say. All right, so anyway, let's move on. So after that, and after that, Wallace Dean takes it over, 501c3, he goes in another direction. Uh uh Walakum Salam, brother, he goes in another direction. Where does the final call come in?

SPEAKER_03: 13:48

I'm not sure exactly when he got his 501c3, but approximately three, a little over three years after 1975, Louis Farrakhan was Wallace D. Muhammad's international representative. He actually represented it, represented the position and theology of Wallace D. Muhammad better than Wallace D. Muhammad did. Wallace D. Mohammed had his own book of lessons. Far Kong was teaching out of those lessons. He was promoting Wallace D. Muhammad as the greatest leader that we have ever had. Somewhere after 1977, 78, somewhere during that time frame, uh we can go into this in detail in another time, but somewhere during that time, Wallace put Minister Louis Farrakhan and Minister John Muhammad, temple number 26, San Francisco, not the messenger's blood brother, put those two big, strong ministers in one little temple on the south side of Chicago together, made Munir, Munir Muhammad became their the secretary of that small temple. That's how Farrakhan and Munir hooked up, and then Wallace cut off Farrakhan and Wa uh and John Muhammad's paycheck. John Muhammad got a job for the city of Chicago. Farrakhan broke away and said, I'm gonna start teaching the messenger's teachings again, and began doing that somewhere late 77, early 78. Ah that's very interesting. We come with actual facts, brother. We're not we're not making anything up. This is not speculation, this is not hatred. This is what happened. This is actually what literally what happened. Okay, I defy anybody in that camp to tell me that is not what happened. And I'm not talking about the low folks on the totem pole, I'm talking about the ministers, I'm talking about the national captain, I'm talking about Mustafa, I'm talking about Ishmael, I'm talking about Minister Farkan himself. Uh uh, what is brother Larry's name now? Uh Akbar, any any of them know that this is the history.

SPEAKER_02: 15:36

That's interesting. I hope y'all heard that because I heard some real interesting stuff right there. A paycheck got cut, and someone goes, Okay, I'm going, I'm gonna take the messengers' teachings and went in his own directions with the messengers' teachings. Um, so let's go here real quick. Final call was established in 1933, 34. It was before Muhammad speaks.

SPEAKER_03: 16:03

He's referring to the new, he's referring to the newspaper. There was the messenger published a newspaper called the Final Call to Islam. Uh, we're not talking about the newspaper, we're talking about the the 501c3 corporate entity that was established after 1978 by Lewis Farrakhan, called the final that's why it's called the final call. Incorporated, it was incorporated at some time after 1978. I don't know the exact date.

SPEAKER_02: 16:28

Okay, so it was incorporated and he took the messengers teachings. Did he take you know all of the lessons like uh Supreme Wisdom one and two, uh uh uh message to the black man? He took all those teachings and did he add or take away anything?

SPEAKER_03: 16:45

Not at first, uh not at first he didn't, but over the course of time you could slowly things began creeping in. I became aware of Lewis Farkan uh and the organizational standpoint, somewhere in late 1980, between 85 and 89, that's when I became aware of him. But I don't know what particularly was being taught in those temples at that time. Minister Minister Muhammad could tell you because he was there in '83. But like I said, even my mentor himself, Minister David Bachar, said, if you want to get more of the messenger's teachings, because he wasn't doing any active ministry, he said, go check out Farrakhan. He told me about all those other ones that I was telling you about. He said, It appears that he is sticking closest to what the boss taught. But as I shared last time, he said he's got an ego problem. If he includes himself in those teachings, run from him. And I never forgot that.

SPEAKER_01: 17:38

Gotcha, gotcha.

SPEAKER_03: 17:39

As soon as I heard him including himself in the teaching, I said, you know what? Time for me to get time for me to get out of here. And what what year was that? Approximately 1993, 94, when I they started saying that he was the messenger or the apostle or the beloved of God, just the the divine reminder, divine this, divine that. But the what caught my ear was Messenger of Allah and the Apostle. And I said, The only apostle that I'm here for is the honorable Elijah Muhammad.

SPEAKER_02: 18:09

Oh man, we got some questions in the chat, man. Uh, so here we go. Uh uh, how did it get from Muhammad speaks to the final quote? You're still talking about the newspaper. Yeah, we're still talking about the newspaper at this point. Talking about the newspaper, brother.

SPEAKER_03: 18:24

Yeah, and then the name of the newspaper is not that's I mean, the the messenger also published a newspaper called Salam Magazine. So that we're not talking about the name, we're not talking about the newspaper. I'm talking about the incorporated entity. Messenger Muhammad never incorporated the nation of Islam, never incorporated Muhammad speaks, never incorporated any of that. So there's a difference in the newspapers and the incorporated entity. See, this is how our people are fooled so easily, they don't understand the nuances of this, and no one's ever explained it to them.

SPEAKER_02: 18:58

This is so deep, man. Okay, so the reason I say that is because, you know, um, you know, I study with the Moors for years and things like that, and um, and uh that's the biggest, that's one of the I don't want to say that is the biggest, but I'm gonna say that is one of the issues that some Moors have with others. Some Moors call um uh some Moorish groups the Inc. because they're incorporated, you know, under the 501c3, and they're not an ingredient to that. And they say that the Prophet Noble Dali did not set up the organization that way. You get what I'm saying? So yeah, yeah, I understand. That's why this is so interesting. So uh the next thing I want to uh want to go into this next one. Um uh so this podcast tonight is alone is the very reason that people call uh Lewis Farrakhan a sellout. Please elaborate. I always wondered why people call him that.

SPEAKER_03: 20:05

I can't speak to whether he's a sellout or not. I can't speak to the facts of what the organization has has done. Uh, I don't know what whether he believes sincerely what they teach now, or whether that would be what if he's if he doesn't sincerely believe it, that would be a sellout, or if he but if he thinks that he is something with the messenger, but I can't really speak to answer whether he's a sellout or not. I don't I don't know the heart of the man, I know the moves that he's made, and I can tell you those moves that he's made without having to lie on him.

SPEAKER_02: 20:37

Okay, there we go. I like how you answer that, brother. So now um under the final call, can you explain the final calls, like your issue with the final call? Uh the your your issue with the final call and its um uh its structure.

SPEAKER_03: 20:58

Well, that there were very there were minor things that came up. The major thing for me was when they started calling him apostle and messenger. That was enough for me. But prior to that, there was even minor things, like even how the temple is set up. Under the final call incorporated, the minister under the honorable Elijah Muhammad, the minister of the of a numbered temple was the most powerful man in the nation of Islam other than the messenger himself. They reported to no one except for the honorable Elijah Muhammad. No, they didn't even report to the national representative of the radio program. They didn't report to them either. They didn't even report to the supreme captain, they reported to no one other than the messenger of Allah. Under the final call incorporated, uh the captains run that show over there. Uh the minute every minister under the final call reports to the supreme captain. Every minister in a particular state reports to the state captain. And even in some of them temples or mosques, the minister don't really run it. He's basically a Bible toter or a Kowan toter. He's no longer a soldier, he's no longer the highest ranking member of that temple, which that is what the minister is supposed to be, the highest ranking member of that military structure. He's not. Not it, not a captain runs everything. The minister very barely goes in and teaches the fruit anymore.

SPEAKER_02: 22:19

So, how is it structured in the nation of Islam?

SPEAKER_03: 22:22

Under the honorable Elijah Muhammad, the minister ran the temple. That's it. That's it. The only time the captain had any authority over the minister was if the minister violated a law. And if the captain thought the minister violated a law and he took uh action on the violation of that law, he better be correct. Otherwise, he would lose his post. Okay. The ministers met with the messenger at least twice a month, face to face. And I'm when I say face to face, I mean all of the ministers together will come to Chicago at least twice a month.

SPEAKER_02: 23:04

Twice a month.

SPEAKER_03: 23:05

Twice a month, yes, sir. That many people, wow, yes, sir. Uh and even some of the things that we're seeing now, like uh other minor things. These were these were minor things. It didn't bug. I I thought it was kind of stupid, but it didn't bug me that much at that time. But you know, the the colored shirts, the correct uniform for an FOI. I'm in what's called Class A uniform, conservative color suit, white shirt, tie, nation of Islam pin, a button to wear the repel of your coat that represents a free transportation of the Holy City Mecca to see Brother Muhammad upon the presentation of four devil's heads at one time.

SPEAKER_01: 23:42

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03: 23:43

Crazy loud cover suits now, you know, uh light blue, pink, uh, red, orange suits, looking like the mighty clouds of joy. That's not our uniform. Even striped and uh plaid suits, that's not our uniform. It's a conservative covered suit. Uh even now, fat ministers. Under the honorable age Muhammad, he didn't allow no, he didn't allow no fat ministers, he didn't allow no fat laborers. Now, I understand some people may have a health condition, but I'm sorry, there's way too many ministers that got this health condition where they're grossly overweight and obese. Uh, no, you have to be weigh a certain amount to even be a laborer under the honorable Elijah Muhammad.

SPEAKER_02: 24:29

You know, uh one of the brothers um said that uh the FOY suit is to to to keep you to keep you in shape, is meant to keep you tight in shape around the around the belly and all that.

SPEAKER_03: 24:45

That's what he he told me. You know what? That is one way to look at it. Yeah, if you got your suit, you got your suit tailored, you can tell by putting your suit on whether you have gained weight or not, even and you don't even have to jump on the scale.

SPEAKER_02: 24:57

No, I'm talking about the FOI uniform.

SPEAKER_03: 24:59

Oh, you're talking about the uniform, yeah. Well, yeah, the I mean the uniform is basically cut like it cut like a suit as well, yes, sir.

SPEAKER_02: 25:06

Right, right, right, right. So, okay, so those things have changed. I I also saw a brother uh with gold teeth. And uh yeah, yeah, I saw a brother with gold. He had everything right, but he had gold teeth. And I said, Can you you can you be a part of the FOI and wear gold teeth?

SPEAKER_03: 25:27

Yeah, I mean, we do have certain grooming standards. Now we do know that you know people are coming in. If there's a time period in the transition period, and yeah, we okay, if let's say if it's a gold tooth. We understand, brother, that you know, dental work is expensive. But yes, brother, you know, and until such time as you are able to get that corrected, sir. Uh you can, of course, you can attend and everything. You just won't be able to hold post until such time as you're able to get that corrected. Because we want to present the best face forward for our people. So it's not gonna be we're not gonna make a big deal about it with that person. It's just that right now you can't hold post, brother, until you get that together. Okay, you don't you don't want to groom all the way and cut your hair all the way? No problem, brother. You're out in uniform, you just can't hold post right now. So we understand with our people it's a process, right?

SPEAKER_02: 26:15

So right now, can I hold post? Looks like it.

SPEAKER_03: 26:23

You look cleaner than the day that I first talked to you, brother. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02: 26:28

Now, um the final call, how it's structured as a 501c3. Is any way we can find that? Because I was trying to, I was looking for it.

SPEAKER_03: 26:39

Uh I'm not I'm not very aware of where to find those records. I mean, they are public records, so there you can find them. But I would I would try the cook, uh, I would first try in Cook County. That's that's the uh the county that Chicago's is based in.

SPEAKER_02: 26:55

Okay, so uh I would so I look that up, Cook County. Uh I know I know uh I know those who are into looking for these things. Uh uh Ben, I'm I'm probably sure you know where to look for it, where to find it. Help a brother out. Let's find the final call and how that that organization is structured.

SPEAKER_03: 27:13

So if we can they they have to, you know, when you're when you're a uh an incorporation like that, you have to file quarterly reports, you have to have a uh management structure, you have to have officers, you've got to file your your your tax paperwork, you have to do all kinds of things, otherwise, you allow the devil in. Even when you do it perfectly, he still is allowed to come in because now it's not yours, it's his. You become a creature of the devil, you become a fiction of the devil.

SPEAKER_02: 27:41

You become again, you become a corporation, where my more is at?

SPEAKER_03: 27:47

You become a corporation. Allah came to free you, and then you put yourself right back in bondage to him, a different type of bondage, but now you gotta answer to him again.

SPEAKER_02: 27:58

Yo, I know the more is loving this. Uh, brother minister uh Ali about how final call ask Brother Minister Ali about how Final Call Inc. pronounces the savior's name differently than the messenger.

SPEAKER_03: 28:13

That's that's brother. That's another one. That's another one. Now, this didn't happen. I don't know exactly when this happened. I'm just guessing this is sometime in the last five to ten or twelve years or so, but now they the messenger told us how to pronounce the savior's name, spelled F-A-R-D in English. It is Farad. Farad, even though there's no A after the R, it is Farad. During the Japanese interview, the Japanese interviewers were trying to ask Messenger Muhammad about the savior and how to pronounce the name, and they tried to say it, and he said, No, no, farad. Now, where this Farrd came from, I don't know, but that's how somebody, that's how an Orthodox Muslim would say it. Farrd. We are not Orthodox Muslims. Our native language is not Arabic. Uh, just like you have a children, I have children, we can spell our child child's name anyway, but we tell people how to pronounce it. Uh, John Muhammad and my mentor, John Muhammad and David Bachal, they both had children whose daughters whose names were M-A-R-Y-A-M, Mariam. John Muhammad pronounced it Mariam. He said, This is my daughter Mariam. And David Bachal said, This is my daughter, Maya. But they were spelled the same way. The messenger was with the savior three years and nearly a half. You're gonna tell me he don't know how to pronounce the man's name, the God's name that trained him day and night and night and day. Now you're gonna let somebody else tell you how to pronounce it. It's it's craziness, brother. But again, that's that's another thing. Seems minor, but it's not minor. God gave us the man who knows the God and knows his name the best. Now we but would now we know how to pronounce it better.

SPEAKER_02: 29:55

Right, so Farad.

SPEAKER_03: 29:57

Farad.

SPEAKER_02: 29:58

Ferrad. And Farrad, that I heard I think I heard uh uh uh minister Farrakhan uh say that.

SPEAKER_04: 30:07

Far.

SPEAKER_02: 30:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 30:09

The messenger told us how to pronounce it. You can follow the messenger or you can follow other people. It's up to you. Choice is yours. Gotcha. So now there's a uh and brother, I don't mean it and even some of the other quote-unquote orthodoxy, like uh like having Juma on Friday. Messenger Elijah Muhammad never had no Juma for us on Friday. Uh, this saying of talk beer of Ahu Akbar, talk beer of Ahu Akbar. The messenger never had us doing that. Where did that come from? That comes from Orthodox. That comes from Wallace. Wallace started doing that. Interesting. We don't we don't call funerals Janazah, we're not orthodox Muslims, we call it a funeral, and we have a particular way to conduct the funeral as well.

SPEAKER_02: 31:00

Okay, so final call has taken the people more to Sunni Islam, is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_03: 31:09

I would tend to say so. Okay, and again, that's who Minister Farrakhan followed Wallace for three for three and a half years, and then even after following him for three and a half years and saying he left him, he brought him back to Savior's Day in 2000, and now he's implementing all these ideas which are from orthodoxy Islam that the messenger was well aware of these uh these rituals and these names, yeah, and he never implemented for them for us. Why? Because he is giving us a new Islam, it's altogether new, only the five basic principles remain the same, otherwise, it's altogether new.

SPEAKER_02: 31:48

All right, what would the five principles be?

SPEAKER_03: 31:51

Prayer, charity, belief in Allah, fasting, and uh what's the fifth one? Some people would say it's pilgrimage. There's another fifth one that's that's slipping my mind. Some people say it's pilgrimage, it's a different one, it's another one as well. But those are just basic principles. That pilgrimage for us is not a is not a trip to uh to uh Mecca Arabia. Uh our transportation is to see Brother Muhammad here in the wilderness and hells of North America. That's what our reward is. Our pilgrimage is to reunite with him and the God that he represents. That's our pilgrimage, not seven circuits around a building, but cleaving close to the word coming from the mouth of God in the person of his messenger, the honorable Elijah Muhammad. That's our pilgrimage.

SPEAKER_02: 32:45

Gotcha. I got a question up here. Uh, thank you, Dre. Uh that the brother from Facebook, I think so. What's up, brother? Uh brother. Can you talk about the lie that messenger had more than one wife?

SPEAKER_03: 33:02

Yes. Uh I've never heard the honorable Elijah Muhammad was interviewed numerous times. Every time he was interviewed, he would talk about his one wife and his six, excuse me, his eight children, six sons and and two daughters. This idea that he had more than one wife is is the very idea that started spreading, which got Malcolm in trouble. This is the very idea that started spreading, and it was condemned in the Muhammad Speaks. I believe back in '93, and this is another thing that was minor, that that had me raising my eyebrows. In 93, Louis Farkan's Savior's Day, he brought out these quote-unquote wives on stage. Two of them, one was Taneta Muhammad, the other two were Evelyn and Lucille, and I think the other one was June. I can't remember the fifth. Well, Evelyn and Lucille were condemned in the Muhammad Speaks. We got it, we got the issue, we got the paper. They were called prostitutes in the Muhammad Speaks for telling such a lie on the honorable Elijah Muhammad. Now, would the honorable Elijah Muhammad allow one of his ministers to call his wives prostitutes in his paper? That doesn't even make sense. Malcolm was trying to get them to perpetuate this lie, and they were lying when Lewis Farrakhan uh tried to get them to perpetuate the same lie. Now, here's the rub many of those children may be related to the messenger. Okay. Go ahead, brother. Okay. Many of those children may very well be related to the messenger. Okay, how is that? Come on, brother. How many sons the messenger have? Right, okay. I get what you're saying. They were a bunch of scoundrels, brother. Two of them ended up with uh Caucasian women. They said, Well, well, this one looks just like the messengers. Okay, that could be the messenger's grandchild. Right. You probably got you probably got children now, brother, that look like your mother or father, or your wife's mother and father, and don't look nothing like you or your wife. Sometimes children look more like the grandparents. That's how it happens. But no, we never heard the messenger say this. Matter of fact, in the during theology of time, which wasn't theology of time at that time, we had an eight-year-old Ishmael Dinar teaching and addressing temple number two during the theology of time. Ishmael Dinar. During 1963, Savior's Day, when uh the messenger was uh ill, and Malcolm and Taneta Dinar taught during that savior's day. I believe it was 63. It was one of those savior days prior to 65 that the messenger was sick and couldn't teach. Her name was Taneta Dinar. Messenger said he named her Dinar because she liked money, who later went out and hooked up after 75 with Yusuf Bey. And Rasul, before he passed, said many times that Yusuf Bey raised him like a father. That's all I'm gonna get into that kind of madness and mess that went on out there.

SPEAKER_02: 36:27

But that would went on for years, brother Dre Dre 24, brother. I'm just like shocked. I'm super shocked that all this was going on. This is like a mess.

SPEAKER_03: 36:42

Brother, the the the Caucasian people deal with us like they deal with any nation. Any nation like America has allies and it has enemies. America spies on both, but as enemies, the America does everything they can to keep their enemies and potential enemies destabilized. They will set up de facto governments, leaders in exiles, opposition leaders who are living in London or uh Los Angeles or in uh Melbourne who are talking against the legitimate government or the real government that's back in the homeland. You got these other puppets set up by America talking about they the real government. This is to keep up confusion amongst the people because a confused people do nothing. And if we're trying to get a confused people to join on to become a nation, that becomes even harder when you got America setting up and backing puppet leaders to lead them in a wrong direction. They first tried it with Malcolm, next they tried it with Wallace. Wallace wasn't charismatic enough, so the next thing they tried it with, in my opinion, they tried it with Louis Farrakhan. During that time after 1975, after the departure of the messenger, September 75, there was a party at Muhammad's Temple number two. And when I say party, I mean a literal party. Dancing, drinking, sweethearting with unsingle people, sweethearting with interracial couples. One of the persons that was there was Phil Donahue. Later on, after 1975, about 10 years later, the first major national uh interview that Louis Farcon did was on the Phil Donahue show in 1985. This is where he was thrust on the scene of national America. And I know that he was filling up arenas before that. 25,000 in New York, Madison Square Garden for power at last forever. Still, the average black person still didn't know who Farkan was until he got on Donahue show in 85 and in 90. Then later on, of course, we know in 92, or excuse me, uh in 95, uh the Million Man Outdoor Picnic and the rest of his history.

SPEAKER_02: 38:55

Indeed, indeed. So uh final call when it when when everything changed into being the final call, uh Minister Lewis Farrakhan started taking him more into Sunni Islam. So if we if we could take you know make a comparison between the messengers' teachings and where Lewis Farrakhan took the teachings, what would you say would be the the difference if we had to put everything on paper and you know and uh and give a clear picture for people to understand?

SPEAKER_03: 39:28

The biggest clear picture that I can give you right now is I don't remember the exact year we got the quote, but he said it several times, that we do not he's when he said we that his organization, which they call it the Nation of Islam as well. I'm just telling you what the incorporated date is. We do not pray to Master Farad Muhammad. He said that the messenger said it we do pray to Master Farad Muhammad. That's the biggest difference right there. Whether you agree that Master Farad Muhammad is Allah or not, the biggest difference is the messenger prays to the Savior, the Messenger and his followers, and the final call to teach us we don't pray to Master Farad Muhammad. Matter of fact, his ministers get so confused sometimes, like Ishmael about three years ago when he did the Savior's Day, the first Savior's Day that Farrakhan wasn't able to do after a while. He Ishmael stood up there and said, We don't pray to Master Farad Muhammad during Savior's Day. And then he had to come back a week later and correct and say, Oh, we do pray to Master Farad Muhammad. Wait a minute, I thought your mother was the great Taneda Muhammad. You're supposed to be the son of the messenger, you don't know who we pray to. It's because he has fallen for what Louis Farrakhan teaches, that we don't pray to him. So it's very confusing for people who are trying to walk this line between what the messenger teaches and what the honorable Elijah Muhammad teaches. But that's the biggest one, right there is who we pray to.

unknown: 40:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 40:48

Next big one is who the messenger is.

SPEAKER_02: 40:51

Okay, let's get into that.

SPEAKER_03: 40:53

The messenger is the honorable Elijah Muhammad.

SPEAKER_02: 40:56

And Lewis, Minister Lewis Farrakhan doesn't teach that.

SPEAKER_03: 41:00

He also teaches that him and his people teach that he's a messenger and an apostle. He teaches that they're teaching that he's a messiah, he's the messiah, a messiah, the messiah. They play these word games. I don't care how you what what identifier you put in front of it. There's one messiah in the nation of Islam, Master Farad Muhammad to whom praise is due forever. And there's one messenger in the nation of Islam, the honorable Elijah Muhammad. There's one great Medid. They were calling Farrakhan the Medik. But that's nothing unusual because when Wallace took over, they were calling Wallace the Christ Madid. So there's nothing new. Everybody wants to be something big.

SPEAKER_02: 41:40

Uh the brother from the new Black Panther Party asks, uh, what's the Masonic involvement?

SPEAKER_03: 41:46

The Masonic involvement in the final call.

SPEAKER_02: 41:51

I I guess I would say, I guess he's asking for let's say for both, for both final call in uh in the nation of Islam.

SPEAKER_03: 41:58

Okay, the Masonic involvement under the honorable Elijah Muhammad is the honorable Elijah Muhammad was a Mason prior to meeting Master Farad Muhammad.

SPEAKER_02: 42:07

Hold on, hold on. Yeah, I just heard that, right? I know y'all heard that. Can you say that one more time, brother? Just for the people in the back.

SPEAKER_03: 42:16

The honorable Elijah Muhammad either was a registered Mason or was very close to the Masons prior to meeting Master Farad Muhammad.

SPEAKER_01: 42:26

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03: 42:28

He said Masonry Ben is like the first three degrees of Masonry is the keys to your slavery.

unknown: 42:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 42:37

Now's Farrakhan, he actually has joined the Masons within the last 10 years.

SPEAKER_02: 42:46

I think I saw that online somewhere.

SPEAKER_03: 42:49

He was wearing the regalia. I don't know if he I don't know their process of initiation. I don't know if he became a regular initiate or if he's honorary, but he put on the regalia and joined the masons, just like he put on the regalia and joined Omega Psi 5. We don't join these other creatures of the devil, brother. Masonry is we gave Masonry to the devil so that they can clean themselves up and come amongst us, right?

SPEAKER_01: 43:16

Study for 35 years.

SPEAKER_03: 43:21

It originally was not for us, but Prince Hall heard and saw a little bit of it, and he started what he thought was good for black people the Prince Hall Masons or the Black Masons. So I hope I'm answering the question of the connection. Uh Louis Farrakhan is a member of the Masons now. He became a Muslim in 1955. We don't join these organizations after we know the truth that God gave the messenger. This it's inferior wisdom to us. We have supreme wisdom. We don't need we don't join on to them, they join on to us.

SPEAKER_02: 43:59

Gotcha. Makes sense, makes sense. So now another thing that's changed. Um, so so in in the final call, you gotta write a letter, right? You got to do the same letter.

SPEAKER_03: 44:10

Correct. Last I heard. I don't know, I don't know now. I believe they still do the letter, but I'm not 100% sure.

SPEAKER_02: 44:20

Okay, and the whole process of going into the FOI and all that is pretty much the same. Last you heard.

SPEAKER_03: 44:28

Last I heard, I mean, uh, they've had several of these open meetings, these men's only meetings. That really wasn't really done under the messenger. They've also had this propensity for uh outdoor meetings. The messenger told his ministers, you know, I wouldn't do that if I were you. Of course, he didn't tell them not to do it, he said, I wouldn't do it if I was you. You know, Farrakhan had the first big outdoor meeting in 1972 at Randall's Island, he had 72,000 there. And then when he went back to the labor's meeting, he said, Well, the messenger asked him how many people accepted. And of course, he he asked the secretary, he didn't know. Because when you were outdoors like that, you have no, you have no control over who's there, you can't take down a guest registry, you can't do acceptances correctly, you can't even secure it correctly. This is what also Malcolm wanted to do, wanted to have these large outdoor rallies, very uh very a very insecure environment. I mean, we we we saw what happened to Charlie Kirk in an outdoor rally, as you can't you can't secure it. We have our meetings indoors and secure the venue for a reason. But you want to do a million-man march, you want to have two million people show up? Okay, luckily, nothing happened, right?

SPEAKER_02: 45:48

Right, indeed. So now uh those okay, now another thing I wanted to ask was um temple and mosque. Why not a temple anymore in now a mosque? I mean, well, I guess for obvious reasons, right? If you want to take some people into being more Sunni, then Well, I I can't I don't have a real under the messenger.

SPEAKER_03: 46:10

The the term temple and mosque were uh used almost interchangeably under the messenger. Oh, they were okay. Yeah, they yeah, they were kind of used interchangeably. He he defined, he said a temple is where you learn and where you are taught. A mosque is where you go to pray, but they were used interchangeably under the messenger, the name temple and mosque. Matter of fact, you if you go look in the old Muhammad speaks, you will see the list of you know mosques around the country, and they're called you know, mosque number 32, mosque number 16, or or whatever. So I don't there's not a big not a big issue there with the name per se, it's more what goes on there. We didn't have no juma, right? We didn't have no janaza.

SPEAKER_02: 46:51

Indeed. Now, another thing is um I remember going into uh uh what is it, mosque number seven on in in in Harlem. I went in there one day, and um the women and the men were separated. That's just a natural that's a normal thing in the nation of Islam.

SPEAKER_03: 47:11

Yeah, yeah, that's normal during the the temple meeting is to have the brother sit on one side, the sister sit on another, and any male, and I forget, any any male child under uh forget what the age is can sit on the side with his mother. But as soon as we're able, they're encouraged to go and sit with the men.

SPEAKER_01: 47:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 47:30

So that's not, and then and and that's for security purposes. Because we will we will evaluate the venue, see the where the most vulnerable place is, and we will place the the men uh at at the most vulnerable place as a protection for any trouble getting to the women first. It's all scientific while we do this.

SPEAKER_02: 47:50

Check, check. Now, here's a question here. Um, is the ex outdated? Shouldn't it be Muhammad by now?

SPEAKER_03: 47:56

No, I would say the ex is not outdated. When we come in, the first thing we all receive is an X to X out the name of the X slave master. So I went from Kevin Tisdale to Kevin X Tisdale in uh 1991 when I officially got on forms. And then when my not not until uh not until 1997, when my daughter was born, did I even think about Ali. And that's another thing. No minister has the right to give out holy names. I didn't get my holy name from a minister. In the absence of the messenger, now this is just my interpretation. I want to be clear, this is my interpretation of my understanding. In the absence of the messenger, the messenger named several of his laborers and other key people, he gave them holy names, but he said, I don't want to get the messenger said, I don't want to get so smart to where I'm naming all the people. That's his job, meaning Allah. So the messenger named a few people. Well, Farrakhan one day went in there and named the whole room, everybody became Muhammad. Now, having said that, well, how do you get how'd you get a holy name? I believe this is my belief. When you write that letter, you're asking Allah for your holy name. That is a prayer and a communication between you and Allah. I, as a minister, have no right to get in between that communication. So if you now say your name, you believe your family's name is uh Hassan, I'm not gonna tell you no different. I'm gonna call you Brother Hassan. If uh, if and when I'm asked about it, uh brother minister, did you give that man that holy name? No, sir. I did not give him that holy name. That is a name that he chose for himself. I explained to him what the X is, and I told him what your procedure are, dear holy apostle. I may be wrong for calling myself Ali, but no one told me to do it. I did it. I believe that is that is my the answer to my prayer, the answer to the letter that I wrote to our Savior, Master Farad Muhammad, to whom praise do for him forever, care of his messenger. I hope that made sense, brother.

SPEAKER_02: 50:09

Yes, sir. Now, what what's your thoughts on um okay? So, for what I understand, the nation of Islam has adopted not Scientology, but the technique of auditing. Now, here's the thing: uh, we're gonna have a podcast on that Friday, uh a Friday at seven o'clock, uh, with with uh two brothers who knows uh Scientology like in depth and studied it for years for a lot of different reasons. Now, um, one of them, his name is Ishmael Bay.

SPEAKER_03: 50:43

Now, he was saying Well, yeah, I know Brother Ishmael from Las Vegas. I know him very well.

SPEAKER_02: 50:48

Yeah, he's originally from Syracuse.

SPEAKER_03: 50:51

That's right, yeah. That's Sarge. He said he's in Vegas.

SPEAKER_02: 50:53

He's in Vegas.

SPEAKER_03: 50:54

I was on a couple of programs with him, yes, sir.

SPEAKER_02: 50:56

Now, um what he was he his in-depth knowledge of Scientology, I can't even expound on. But from what I understand, is that the nation of Islam has taken upon the technique of auditing. Now, what do you know about that? And okay, are you in disagreement with auditing?

SPEAKER_03: 51:18

Here's here's what they say. They and again they try to play word games, they try to tell you that Scientology and Dianetics are two different things. They're trying to say that we're not Scientologists, that we're just using the technology. Well, this cell phone right here, this is technology. Uh this this air Apple AirTag, that's technology. Technology works. The air tag is supposed to tell you where it is at all times, and when it does that, it works. The technology of Scientology or Diagnetics is supposed to produce what's known as a clear. A clear is a person, an individual who now exhibits certain characteristics. A clear can do this, a clear can do that, a clear can do that, a clear does not forget, a clear has uh recall, memory, all these different things that a clear can do. In the entire history of Scientology or diagnetics, it has not produced not one person who can do all those things that a quote unquote clear person can do. They haven't cleared one person yet, but now you're calling it technology. Well, if it doesn't work, it ain't technology, it doesn't work. They hold these two things called an e-meter that mat what it really measuring is measuring the galvanic skin response. All of us are full of electricity, and when you grab those two uh red and black things from Radio Shack, it's gonna make the needle move. But what they do to the uninitiated is they put it on a silver can and they have somebody talking to you, and as soon as it moves, they say, Oh, look, there's an M gram, and we gotta talk until that M gram goes away. Brother, this is not technology, it's a circus show. Scientology and dianetics was condemned in the Muhammad Speaks as spook worship, but not just spooks as relying on electronic devices and now instead of now relying on spooks. It's just another form of Christianity, another form of spook worship. If you look at the if you look at the symbol of Scientology, and if you look at the symbol of the CIA, and if you look at the symbol of the people's temple of Jim Jones, the Kool-Aid cult, they all look the same because they're all psy-ops of the same CIA central intelligence psy-op, Scientology, Dianetics, People's Temple. That's why they got the same symbols.

SPEAKER_02: 53:46

Yo, Dre 24, Radio Shack. That's what had me like, whoa, that was funny. Yo, man. Um, on that note, brother, uh, I would like for you to come back again and let's keep building on this subject right here because this one is the subject. Uh, hold on.

SPEAKER_03: 54:02

Can you see that?

SPEAKER_02: 54:03

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_03: 54:04

Google CIA, and you'll see that that multi-sot star, and then then Google the church of Scientology symbol and the people's temple symbol, and you see that that they all look the same.

SPEAKER_02: 54:18

On that note, brother, thank you for coming out this evening. I really appreciate you. Asalam Aleikum first of all.

SPEAKER_03: 54:23

Yeah, we got we got to do part two of this, brother.

SPEAKER_02: 54:25

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03: 54:27

For sure. Thank you for having me, brother. And I I I pray I didn't offend anybody, that's not my intent. Just to put the information out there is my intent. You can do with it what you will. I don't mean to offend anyone.

SPEAKER_02: 54:39

That's peace. On that note, thank you guys for coming out this evening. We have a podcast in about five minutes. We're talking about um uh the divine, I forgot the name of it, pardon me, y'all. But you'll see in a few minutes, we are on with the more uh uh Lloyd Michael Douglas L, and we are out of here.

SPEAKER_00: 55:02

Commercial. Peace family. Welcome to NYP Talk Show. This is more than a podcast, it's a conscious platform rooted in truth and culture from the 5% nation, nation of Islam, Moorish movement, and masonry. Our mission is to reclaim our narrative and uplift the African diaspora with real stories and real conversations. Support us through Super Chats during live shows, donations on Cash App, GoFundMe, Patreon, or BuzzSprout. And by repping our official merch, available on our website and right here on YouTube's merch shelf. Every dollar, every super chat, every hoodie builds the movement. This is NYP Talk Show.