As Above, So Below: Prince Hall Reflections - Brother SOL

What does a real journey from doubt to discipline look like when the stakes are your identity, your community, and your faith? We sit down with Brother Soul Magic to trace a path that starts in Baltimore, runs through the Army and a move to Georgia, and unfolds across study with the 12 Tribes in Trinidad, the Five Percent Nation, Moorish circles, and ultimately into Prince Hall Freemasonry. The thread through it all is Garveyism’s insistence on organized uplift and the steady work of becoming useful to others.

We get candid about the myths: no goats, no skulls, no secret cabals pulling strings. Instead, you’ll hear how a petition can begin with months of volunteering at an after-school program, how a blown tire on the way to a first degree becomes a lesson in providence, and why the craft demands not only initiation but demonstration. Prince Hall history comes into focus—African Lodge as an affirmation of origin, not exclusion—and we map how lodges, churches, and benevolent societies quietly powered literacy, leadership, and civil rights long before the headlines.

From there, we connect esoteric language to everyday tools. The seven liberal arts and sciences sharpen thought, speech, and measure for people historically shut out of schools. Polarity isn’t about extremes but about range and balance. Tarot’s Fool and Magician mirror the initiatory arc from faith to agency. And perhaps most vital, the lodge functions as a microcosm of a better society: Christians, Muslims, and others working side by side to build, not to argue dogma. We close with the inner labor of squaring the stone—admitting roughness, chipping away what doesn’t serve, and choosing better, again and again.

If this resonates, tap follow, share with a friend who’s curious about Prince Hall history or Garveyism, and leave a review with the lesson that hit you hardest. Your voice helps more seekers find the light.

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening, Guest Introduction
• 0:48 Episode Theme: As Above So Below
• 1:05 Soul Magic’s Roots In Baltimore
• 2:46 Early Knowledge Of Self At Home
• 4:22 Rastafari And Trinidad Study
• 6:24 Five Percenters And Moorish Paths
• 9:38 Garveyism As A Throughline
• 12:22 Deciding To Join Masonry
• 15:03 Petition, Community Service, Vetting
• 18:28 First Degree Night And Doubts
• 21:05 After Initiation: Study And Discipline
• 23:08 Prince Hall History And Context
• 25:16 Civil Rights Roots And Fraternalism
• 28:02 Where Are The Black Fraternities
• 29:34 Seven Liberal Arts And Practical Light
• 32:08 Polarity, Oneness, And Range
• 35:20 Shared Codes Across Traditions
• 38:12 Journey From Darkness To Light
• 40:44 Squaring The Stone Psychologically
• 43:20 Discouragement, Faith, And Culture Wars
• 46:36 Tarot As An Initiatory Mirror
• 49:28 The Lodge As A Microcosm
• 52:10 Nuwaubian Lodge And Legacy
• 54:48 Closing And Future Topics

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:12

Peace World, Peace World. How you doing? It's your brother Mikey Fever, NYP Talk Show. Another great episode. Don't forget to comment, like, share, subscribe. Tonight we got a special guest, a brother that I have been communicating with for about a year, and now we finally got him. Brother Soul Magic. Welcome, brother.

SPEAKER_01: 0:30

Thank you, Mikey. Thanks for having me on and uh invite me to have a you know a chit chat of sorts, and I look forward to the uh discourse, brother.

SPEAKER_00: 0:40

Definitely. I like the symbolism in the background. Salute to the brothers of the craft, peace to all you somehow B, you know, from A to Z. Uh tonight's episode, we'll be talking about As Above, So is Below, Prince Hall Reflections with Brother Soul. Peace to the Brothers of the Craft again. Shout out to Prince Hall. Shout out to all traveling men out there, peace to the nation of gods and earth, NOI, and all that good stuff. We're here tonight. So, brother Soul, man, you know, take us, take us, give us a journey, man. Where you from, bro?

SPEAKER_01: 1:10

Originally I'm from Baltimore, Maryland. I was born and raised in Baltimore, graduated from the Baltimore Polytechnic Institute in 1993. After that, I entered basic training. Uh the United States Army. I went to Fort Benning right out of high school. And it was the first time that I'd really been out of the state, right? So I remember coming through Atlanta Airport at that time on my way to Columbus, Georgia. And I just thought to myself, man, I got to live here one day. I I was, I guess, it was a lot to take in, right? So fast forward, I finished up my basic training, go back to Baltimore, did a little bit of college, got married, had a son, came here, Georgia in 1999, and been here ever since.

SPEAKER_00: 2:00

Well, that's peace, man. Peace. B more's in the house, man. Were you from the west side of Baltimore, east side, as they put it?

SPEAKER_01: 2:06

That's it. Or the west side. Southwest to be exact. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00: 2:12

All right. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's where so-called Avon Boxdale was from and all that from the wire.

SPEAKER_01: 2:19

That's a good question. You know, when I first moved here, a lot of people asked me about the wire, and not I hadn't seen it, so I couldn't confirm or deny. I I have since seen it. I'm not sure what side the Boxdale crew was from, but a lot of the background was reminiscent of where I'm from.

SPEAKER_00: 2:36

All right, cool. That's that's peace, man. And you know, be more has a very historical state. So as far as that, joining, you know, joining the military after school, having a child, getting married. Uh, what started your journey into, you know, wanting to obtain knowledge of self? Like was it were your family, the religious background?

SPEAKER_01: 2:55

Man, knowledge of self was like from the very beginning. Um, like my some of my earliest memories was either my mom or my grandfather, my grandmother, aunts, uncles, you name it, you know what I mean? Uh, telling me about who I am and my place in the world. And not just me, but my cousins. And I later realized it was a it's a cultural thing. It was important to know where you're from so that you know where you're going. That was like hammered into me, right? So um my mother instilled the the habit of reading very early, you know what I mean? And would feed me so-called black history books to read, and that's really where it started for me. Um, that was the first place I ever read the name Prince Hall. And it really wasn't much said other than he was a Negro. This is what the book said. He was a Negro who was the worst master of the lodge. That was all the book said. And then uh years later, you know, while I'm at college, I grew up in a very strict uh Christian background. And then when I got to college, I kind of rebelled, meaning I became uh uh a Rastafarian, right? Which was proud in itself. Yeah. And I ended up living in Trinidad for about a year and a half, and I had the opportunity, yeah. I had the opportunity to study with the 12 tribes of Israel, which I would say is probably the first magical school of sorts that I was a part of, because their interpretation of the Bible is highly metaphysical, and understanding these metaphysical principles would l lead to things happening that would be considered magical in a sense, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 4:48

Oh, that's what's up, man. Trinidad, shout out to Trinidad. So you you joined the you was a Rastafari and then you joined this 12 tribes of Trinidad 12 tribes of Israel in Trinidad, which basically, as you mentioned, metaphysical aspect of the Bible, you know, understand the meaning of the words and evoke and learning how to invoke, evoke, and such and such, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 5:09

You know, the allegory before that the Bible was a very literal book to me. And then when we started exploring the meanings of the names, now when you're reading it and you're inserting the meanings of the names, it's a whole different story. You know, it's a whole different thing going on. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 5:26

Yeah, I'm not gonna lie, yo, you kind of resemble my brother Ron Brown a little bit. I don't know. Yeah, probably from the same time. Yeah, you gotta do. Yeah, probably do, but is he from? Uh he's from Harlem. He's a Harlem. I'm from Brooklyn. Yeah, he's a Harlem cat. Harlem in the building. You know, the guys that get fly for no reason, they go to the corner store, they gotta take like four hours to get dressed before they go in the corner store.

SPEAKER_01: 5:51

Oh, I hear, so I hear. You said you from Brooklyn?

SPEAKER_00: 5:54

Yeah, I'm from Brooklyn, man.

SPEAKER_01: 5:56

Where? Where my son was uh born in Brooklyn at uh Kings County. I used to live in that's what I was born in. Yeah, I used to live on Nostin Avenue between Maple and Midwood, yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00: 6:06

Okay, that's my area, man. I used to live in Lincoln and Lincoln between Rogers and Flatbush.

SPEAKER_02: 6:13

Okay, okay, yes, sir. Small world, isn't it? Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_00: 6:18

That's that's peace, man. So you say that after the um 12 study with the 12 tribes of Israel, you mentioned that your mother and your family always put non-self information into you as far as black books and culture whatsoever, and any other groups or pieces of information that you built upon that you were introduced to?

SPEAKER_01: 6:36

Well, from the uh when I was in college, I also studied with the 5% nation of God's nurse. Um, my enlightener, I found actually at the time online through uh Yahoo at the time. And my enlightener, he was uh a student at, I want to say at Duke. And he he gave me the 120, you know, online, which was wild for that time because the internet was fairly new in that way, you know. I mean, like Yahoo, anybody can build a page on Yahoo during that time, you know. I mean, that's how open it was. So I went from the 5% nation into directly into Rastafarianism. I did Rasta for about 11 or 12 years, something like that. And then I got into the a transition from there into the Moorish Holy Temple of Science, uh, which is which is a little distinct from the Moorish Science Temple of America, which I also did some studies with those brothers too, but my nationality card is from the Moorish Holy Temple of Science, which is a little different.

SPEAKER_00: 7:46

Um I never heard that one before.

SPEAKER_01: 7:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:51

So can you expound on that a little bit if you can?

SPEAKER_01: 7:54

Well, from the perspective is that the Moorish Holy Temple of Science of the World is said to be the original name of the organization before it was changed to the Moore Science Temple of America. It is also a faction because you know, whenever there is an organization with a leader, when that leader passes away, it tends to fracture, right? So you have this faction, that faction, this faction. So this faction, the Moore's Holy Temple of Science of America, uh, was uh a man known as the chauffeur. He was uh Givens eel. And they called him Noble Juali reincarnated, which other Moors scoffed at because there's no way he could be the prophet reincarnated. I'm not going to get into all of that dogma, but that's the main difference between the Moore's Holy Temple of Science and brothers who are the Moors Science Temple of America.

SPEAKER_00: 8:52

So that's peace. So how long did you stay there for?

SPEAKER_01: 8:56

Um, until the temple dissolved, um, the temple, the the uh divine minister ended up taking a job as a truck driver. And then the summon school and the um the the the the holy day uh meetings were held at his apartment. So when he took a truck driver job, he sold the spot. So it's about five, six years. You know what I mean? About five or six years.

SPEAKER_00: 9:25

So after you did all that, you did travel, man. You went, you came, we went went to many school of thoughts. Yeah, it's the Rasta, Rastafarian, five percent nation, um the the 12 tribes of Israel with the Trinidadian thing, I believe I said that, and then the Moorish Holy, the Moorish Holy Science Temple. I don't know if I'm saying it correct.

SPEAKER_01: 9:48

Yeah, Moorish Holy Temple of Science. And I I even though we can say that there are many schools, I looked at them as two schools, and they're built on, I believe, on Garveyism. When I was in college, I was heavy into Marcus Garvey life and lessons, opinions, and and uh principles and things of that nature. And so the Moors hailed Garvey, so I saw that as an Islamic school of thought. And even though Rastafarianism is a little different, it still would fall under Christianity, it's still Christ. You know, I mean it's a different form of Christ, but it's still Christ, right? So it's really two schools of thought that was built on a Garveyistic ideal, which even contributed to me becoming a Freemason, because from my understanding, Garvey was also a member there, too. So I was a big fan of Garvey in my early, my my late teens, early 20s, because and I still believe that his solution is probably the solution, but we're a long way from that solution, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00: 10:51

So of course, because I I think our people were so uh divided, you know. Garvey, the generator, then you had Elijah Muhammad who had the same ideas, separation. But people when they hear that word separation, they assume that you're you're meaning to be hateful and such. I see that self-preservation, basically uh, you know, isolating the sickness before it gets within our communities to work on what's going on within before we could go back, go without, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 11:21

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 11:22

But as within asking, I don't think I don't think they're ready for that, but it's dope that you study Garveyism, man, because yo, Garvey was that dude, man. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 11:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:49

Yeah, and you know, you know how that goes. So with all the you know, all these schools of thoughts and the study and of all these black collective consciousness, and you said that Rastafari is the school that led you into Freemasonry.

SPEAKER_03: 12:05

Can you give us a Garbyism?

SPEAKER_00: 12:08

Garveyism, yeah. Maybe the walk was correct. Yeah, you're correct. Tell us the initial step, what it took for you to get to Masonry. Like, who did you reach out to? Did you, you know, as they say, axe want to be one, or you just went seek so um speaking yourself?

SPEAKER_01: 12:22

Yeah, see that that's interesting because I didn't know anyone here in Georgia that was a Freemason. Like you would see them, you know, in terms of you'll see, you know, an logo on the back of the vehicle, had a t-shirt or whatever, but I didn't know any to ask any. And so time went on, and I also should preface this by saying that at the time I decided to become a Freemason, shortly before that, I was a person that would be considered as an anti-Mason. I should probably say that first. Um, and largely because again, in college, um, I was hanging out with some of my peers, and one guy blurted out something about Masons being the head of the World Bank. And for one, I didn't know that there was a World Bank at that time, and I didn't know what a Mason was, and so I decided to read up on it, and I found all this what I thought information that said that they were evil people, and then I met a guy, fast forward to turn of the century. I met a guy who in my friend group, you know, I mean, it's pretty cool, whatever. And then one day, about maybe a year and a half later, I saw him driving this car. He had the MM on the back of his car. So I'm like, whoa, hold up, man. You know, I got this preconceived notion of what I believe a Mason is, and I'm like, this guy definitely is not that. So, you know, I you know, we chatted or whatever, and he was like, you know, the only way you'll definitely know anything is to do it for yourself, you know. I mean, so then I I took maybe another year and read up, and then my grandfather uh called him and I asked him, Do you know anything about these Masons? And then my grandfather, it was like a maybe four or five second pause, and he said, Boy, that's a beautiful thing. And so we had this conversation where now I'm learning that he was a Mason. He he didn't wear rings or shirts or whatever, but he, you know, looking back, I could see that he was definitely a pillar of his community, no doubt, right? So I made up my mind that the only way that I would know, because I had a stack of books that said Masons were bad, and I had a stack of books saying that they were good. You know, it's the only way to know was to do it. So um I ended up reaching out to the most worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Georgia directly. I spoke to a secretary and uh he asked me to come down and I came down, I took uh the day off work and I went down there on Auburn Avenue at the time. It buzzed me in. I went upstairs and he was like, How can I help you? I said, I'm here because I want to be a Mason. And he was like, You know anybody? I was like, No, I don't know anybody. He's like, Where do you live? I was like, I live so and so. He was like, Well, there's a lodge right down the street from you. Take this phone number and call the secretary. And I was after then, I was off to the races, you know. Got to know the secretary for about six months. When I first met him, told him out the gate, look, I've been trying to join. And he's like, Okay, we'll see. Older gentlemen, right? So he's from the school, and they're from the school, the older ones, like, okay, you can say anything. You're gonna have to show me I need to get to know you, things of that nature. And so he ran a uh an after-school program for the kids in the area that I was living in. He had a store. So they would come in there after school, they could play video games or you know, just things to keep them out of the way, out of the streets, and out of trouble. And it got to the point where I would get off work, drive 60 miles home because I was on a 120-mile circuit every day. I get home, okay, put down my things, I head to the shop, and you know, just pretty much volunteer in the community. One day he slayed me in a petition and he said, I believe you came here for this originally. I had forgotten. I was like, okay, I'm like an impressive. I thought I was maybe years away from a petition. You so I wasn't even thinking about it. So I went and I got my first degree. I remember going in and saying, if I see any of that dumb stuff, I'm out of there, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 16:35

Let's just take it back. Before you got to your first degree, right? You got your petition. Did you felt that um that sensation, like that anxiety kicking? Like, you know, what am I doing? Because you know, we all fell into those rabbit holes of again. I'm keep saying those David Ike books, those other black authors is talking all this radical stuff. You know, when you go in there, you're telling your soul that's like boolet, and you know, that's on top of the boolean and such and such, and black men are going in there, it's not made for them. This is the Europeans the um playground, and you know, Mason's tend to be bloodsuckers of the people, you know, why everything is so is so secretive with them. They are anti-progression, right?

SPEAKER_04: 17:15

Yeah, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_00: 17:16

I know how you felt.

SPEAKER_01: 17:18

Yeah, I did have a hesitation.

SPEAKER_00: 17:21

Huh?

SPEAKER_01: 17:21

I did have some hesitancy, just based on my first introduction to the topic, you know what I mean. But then when I came to understand that Prince Hall was associated with it, and again, I had only read one line, but he was embedded in black history for some reason. And then I noticed that a lot more of the people that had that I learned about in black history that were the vanguard, they were associated with the order one way or another, you know. I mean, so I think that kind of took some of the edge off, but I still felt like if you know, I still didn't know for sure because I hadn't done it, you know. So part of me was still like, what if it's still on some rah-rah type stuff? And I was just like, well, we'll cross that bitch when we get to it, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00: 18:08

Yeah, all right. Well, I go into detail, you know, with the whole initiate, the initiatic process, because we must ref we must respect the code of ethics and everything else, right? That day when I when you got that call, like, brother, it's time to come. I not even but you know, it's time for you to calm down, right? How was describe that feeling when you knock on those doors?

SPEAKER_01: 18:31

It's a little wild because so I was getting off work, I'm driving home. The day that I'm getting my first degree, I'm driving home again, 60 miles, and I'm supposed to be there at about seven. And about maybe 20 miles from home, my tire blows out. So I'm I'm going to the side of the road trying trying not to crash, you know. And as I'm getting over, I noticed in my rear view, I see another car getting over right behind me, which I thought was kind of wild. And then this guy jumps up out of his car. Um, not that it matters, but just for the purpose of the story, he was uh obviously he was a white guy, literally in a black suit with a white, with a black tie. He came up to me with black shades, so I'm tripping, right? I'm like, what's going on? Right? He was a salesman. I later found out he was a wrench salesman, but he saw my tire blow out and he offered assistance, and he had me change my tire, and I made it to the lodge on time. So when I got there and I told him that I'm here for the degrees, I was excited because I thought I wasn't going to get the opportunity because my tire blew out, you know. I mean, and this guy who he tried to sell me a wrench set later, but that's the side point. I think I bought it just out of gratitude because I wouldn't have made it there right. But this guy. Who didn't know me from Adam pulling over when he saw me blow out? To me, that was like, okay, I'm on the right track. You know what I mean? Because irrespective of what I'm doing, before I learn things in certain ways, my family always told me that you gotta print on everything before you do it. So to me, that was confirmation. I'm on the right track. I was excited when I got there. Like, okay, let's do this.

SPEAKER_00: 20:23

You know, definitely. Oh, that's dope. It'd be funny if that guy was a brother. You never know.

SPEAKER_02: 20:30

Never know.

SPEAKER_00: 20:32

You never know. Because you know, it's always like those, those little as they say, what coincidences or things that take place? You'd be like, I don't know, but whatever. So you went, you you felt it was the right path. You went through, you went there, went through your yeah, went to your first degree. How did you feel after that once you did it? Did did you fall upon any of that demonic stuff people say? Goats jumping around, you know, people jumping on goats, drinking out of skulls, and all that extra nonsense.

SPEAKER_01: 21:00

It was nothing like that. Um for me, it was it's really even you know, given the constraints, it would still be difficult to put into words.

SPEAKER_05: 21:12

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 21:13

Because I felt like that I I was doing something significant. I was 25 at the time, you know what I mean? Really trying to build the foundation still of my life. You know, my son was two or three, you know, I was married at the time, really trying to be a family man. So to me, this was a step in that direction. And so I really felt like I wanted to do my absolute best because what people don't know is that, you know, yeah, there's an initiatic aspect, but there's also uh an aspect where you have to learn certain things and be able to demonstrate that you've learned those things.

SPEAKER_00: 21:53

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 21:54

You know, it's was overwhelming. I wasn't the best student in school, so when I got that information that I had to demonstrate, I was just like, man, I'm in college again.

SPEAKER_00: 22:08

You know, that's like uh the generic saying, as they say, everything's all communication is non-verbal, symbolic, and you know, as you said, you must demonstrate for what you observe consciously and subconsciously, and based on what you're reading. So it's like it's coming into fruition, you know, the information that you're receiving. So I know that feeling as you're breaking that. I I understand that. So with that being said, like that's with the Prince Hall aspect of it. We know who Prince Hall was. He was given a charter within African uh and masonry to provide African Americans with um, as they say, authorization to do the craft in the US, right?

SPEAKER_01: 22:51

Yeah, that's I guess that's one way you could put it. Um the lodge itself wasn't necessarily for African Americans, it was for Masons. But social climate in America was such that you know black and white people didn't occupy the same spaces. So, you know, a lot of people will will tend to think because of the culture of America at the time, that it was for African American people, African people, or Negroes, or whatever, but it was for Masons, irrespective of whatever ethnicity they were. But because of segregation here, it'd be it was what it was, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 23:30

All right, cool. Cool. So I have I have one question, I have a few questions, right? Very basic is how did the civil rights movement interact with or draw influence from Prince Hall Masonic leadership?

SPEAKER_01: 23:46

I would say that the civil rights movement will have its roots in like when you get into the historical aspect now of the things that Prince Hall is said to have done, aside from his Masonic exploits, he was a community leader. He and his brethren were community leaders, and uh in a very profound sense, I would say uh the original civil rights movement. Um when we talk when we talk about the civil rights movement, we tend to talk about the civil rights movement of um, I would say, my grandparents' time, you know, Dr. King, Matthew, you know, Rosa Parks, um uh, you know, A. Philip Randolph, all of those people during that time. But it was going on before that. We like, for example, Dr. King was uh his father was also struggling for civil rights, you know what I mean? And his father before him, this is something that's been going on since at least what I'll I'll say 16, 19, but let's just say 1866, you know. Interestingly enough, Manumission, 1866, you'll see a lot of lodges grow. Brothers were actually coming straight from the plantations and becoming Freemasons and then building the communities that they lived in. So it's always been kind of integral to the community building, but not just Prince Hall Masonry. We call it Prince Hall today, but back then it was Negro Masonry, right? Um but then you also had our fellows, you had the AME Church, you had all of these different kinds of fraternal groups. I remember reading The Independent, which was a black-owned paper here in Georgia, it went defunct about a century ago. But um one of the articles said uh about around 1915 was where the article's from. It said that what we, meaning black people, were most known for in this country was fraternalism. Everybody belonged to something. You might not have been the basin, you might have been the elk. You might not have been the elk, you might have been a uh son or daughter of Tabor, or you might just be in the church. But everybody, we understood community a lot better than we do now.

SPEAKER_00: 26:07

Uh yeah, I wonder what happened to that because you know, you know, within the black community, we have organizations that have that uh label of religious organization groups, like you know, we have the NOI, the Moors, and you know, even down to the Hebrew Israelites, right? But I I don't see uh too many other black fraternities out there, you know. Why like why is that?

SPEAKER_01: 26:34

I think it depends where you look. And I say that because like the the religious organizations, I think, are a little bit different, um, in the sense that they're not just what Garvey envisioned as what he called a confraternity. Um it also was uh like you said, this religious aspect, and this is where they um drew their unity and their common experiences from. And for a person's uh in the collegiate fraternity, it's not necessarily gonna be a community bond that way, you know. Yeah, yeah. You know, you could be uh in the collegiate frat and have a different religion from the other guy, you know what I mean? But that's not gonna happen in the nation of Islam. They are Muslim over there.

SPEAKER_05: 27:22

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_01: 27:24

I think that's a different dynamic, but you you will see the collegiate fraternities, you will see the Masons, you will see us at your food banks, you will see us uh at the exits of your uh communities, uh raising raising money for little pee-wee football and stuff like that. You won't necessarily see us taking a political, well, maybe the collegiate ones, but masons, we tend to try to stay out of the political thing.

SPEAKER_00: 27:53

That's a fact, yes, we do. That's a fact, that's a fact. And then somebody in the comment, Wennis Daley says sons of temperance. Temperance. I don't know. Have you heard did you have you ever heard of that group right there?

SPEAKER_01: 28:04

No, no, it's a it's an interesting name. So maybe he's using it as a general descriptor uh adjective of masons in general.

unknown: 28:13

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 28:14

I've never heard of it.

SPEAKER_00: 28:16

You know, with this with this area, people might go out there and create their own fraternities, man.

SPEAKER_01: 28:20

And they have another time, people always create their own thing, and I think that's a part of the problem, you know. Everybody wants to lead.

SPEAKER_00: 28:30

Everybody, everybody want to lead. We never know. So, you know, um what role did did literacy did literacy, self-education, and personal refinement play in the early large system?

SPEAKER_01: 28:45

When you say literacy, I'm uh this is gonna sound silly, but you can read words, you can read symbols, you can read rooms. So when we talk about literacy, we you can read politics, then why do you even know how to read a book? You know, does that mean you can read what's going on and how to be effective in a situation, but you might not be able to pick up a book and read the preface.

SPEAKER_00: 29:09

As far as like, you know, I you know, for instance, like, you know, um I don't want to probably go to use a bad analogy, but we had like the no y taught self-awareness of our people, no, you know, teaching them who they who they are, not what you know, so-called white men tell you about your history. Same thing when the morals thought about nationality, you know, knowing thyself, you know, above and below. Did uh what did um outside of the brotherhood, what did Masonry teach? I hate to put it like that, Prince Hall Masonry teach our people at that time.

SPEAKER_01: 29:45

I think I think one of the biggest lessons that was kind of embedded in Prince Hall Masonry is the naming of the Lodge African Lodge. You know, it was very important for its members to understand their link or their tie to Africa, you know. And that would, of course, no pun intended, it would color our experience here in the Americas and also uh demonstrate the necessity for us to stick together with a common goal, a common vision, or as Garvey said, one aim, you know. So I think that's something that many groups have benefited from, you know, there's a lot of a lot of talk of people who may have been influenced by the organization and who weren't members. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 30:37

That's dope. And all right, and as far as like you know, we can talk about frameworks, philosoph philosophical frameworks and principles, right? We know that each school of thought, each school of fraternity has their own kind of framework that that that that is used to help mold the initiate's mindset to have a collective thinking of the group to know what the agenda is, right? So say on an esoteric philosophical aspect, you know how do the seven hermetic principles function as a medical framework, metaphysical framework for our people?

SPEAKER_01: 31:11

Within other words, or well, the seven hermetic principles usually associated with I want to say the caballion. So you have the law of mentalism all the way up to polarity. The caballion is interesting hermetically because it is uh it's a modern contrivance, right? It's not uh is not classical, like neoplatonist type of hermeticism, like the original Hermeticism, right? So when we talk about Hermes and we talk about uh his connection to Freemasonry, it's public knowledge that uh he is said to have created some pillars, and within those pillars there were seven liberal arts and sciences. Again, this is public knowledge. Um, you can look it up online, and so I think I've always thought that the seven hermetic principles that are covered in the Caballion really allude to the seven liberal arts and sciences, which really would benefit us because you know, coming out of slavery into a lodge, learning about the seven liberal arts when you weren't allowed to go to college, you weren't allowed to read and write, but you're learning about the seven liberal arts and sciences, which are said to be the highest tool for polishing the mind, you know. Yes, so even though there is an esoteric aspect, there's a practical aspect as well to kind of go hand in hand, you know. So, and I I try to I try to always bring it to something tangible because it's easy to get lost in Hermeticism and just you know have philosophies and never act on something, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 32:53

That's dope, that's dope. I like how you say that. It's true because you know, um before traveling into into a lodge, right? I always thought like, you know, seeing the symbol as a as a as a as a youth. I always knew that, you know, and not trying to bring racial divide, but always knew that this is our craft, our people. We study the roots of it. What we do now is like that's mainstream, mainstream from the 1800s, 1700 1800s. But this was before it was called Masonry. This was this this is what they practiced in the um the mystery schools, like you know, down to you know, Kemet and such. And you know, some people try to like, oh no, it's what the European gave in modern time, but we know our kinds of constitution says Anderson's constitution.

SPEAKER_01: 33:44

If we want to talk about so-called mainstream, what the European created, even Anderson's constitution says that it's from Egypt, which is Africa, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 33:55

Yeah, uh, I got more people in the comments putting up some stuff right here. What do you say? Seven liberal arts bring out brings order out of chaos. That's a fact. And you know, I don't want to say this and catch flat because I know you know, peace of the gods and earth, man. I know they they might want to turn my head off of this, but I believe within their lessons, you will find some of the liberal arts in there.

SPEAKER_04: 34:22

Oh yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 34:24

If you if your mind's open enough to pick up on it, you'd be like, Oh, I see where they're taking it, you know.

SPEAKER_04: 34:29

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 34:30

Yeah, did you see that in there when you were studying?

SPEAKER_01: 34:34

When you when you talk about uh supreme, there's so many different ways because Supreme Alphabet, Supreme Mathematics are like the the entry point. And when you look at the definitions, when you just are examining the alphabet in general, there are correspondences uh to what we call the craft. Um, whether or not if you know uh Father Allah or Elijah Muhammad were members at some point, who knows? You know, who knows, or maybe they knew somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody. Who knew somebody, right? But the important part is that the the knowledge got out to people, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 35:18

Nice, that's a fact. That's a fact. All right, we're gonna, you know, again, not trying to disrespect the craft, but we're just gonna try to balance it out for those who know. Um, what connection can be drawn between the principles of polarity and Masonic duality symbolism?

SPEAKER_01: 35:36

Well, if we if we if we just look at because Masonic duality, I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with that. I know that's people that would take certain furnishings and would say that you know there's a dualistic principle. Okay, let's just say I give it the benefit of the doubt. We talk about polarity and dual duality. We're talking about basically opposites, reconciliation of opposites. Um a third way, and I'm not sure if I I personally subscribe to that idea of there being uh a duality. I think there's a oneness that we have a hard time assimilating, and so we divide it in half as humans because our senses are limited, you know. We only have so-called five senses, so for us, things are either hot and cold, or wet and dry, or up and down, left and right, that kind of thing. But with that's just for us to be able to have a point of reference to where we happen to be at a particular moment of time and space, but there's really no up and down, there's really no wet and dry. These are things that we created in order to be able to use things for our benefit. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00: 36:49

No, that makes sense. Because, yeah, because you know, it's our idea of like men's idea of trying to grasp, grasp the concept, the idea, the existence of God, you know, put it in the focus and put it in the framework of box. So, you know, you know, if I see this symbol or if I go to this form of notion, that means it's part of this, you know, system right here that we deal with. This science right here means this right here. So if you can relate that to that, like your initiation, you know, people will go in like I remember how it first went. And you know, if you could go back to your the time when you got initiated, there were certain things that took place, and when you look back at it, you'd be like, Wow, I remember this part happened to me, and then I use my instincts at this moment, and that helped me proceed through. You know, you get what I'm saying? So these are things that you know that's why I say within that framework, all the call recall, because every school of thought has their um call and response, call and response initiation thing. Like it's it's it's a beautiful thing, man. Like the Masonic framework. And again, this podcast right here, we're not seeking converts, nor are we speaking as authoritative figures. We just building on the on the on the science of it. Yeah, you know, some people will come in the comment section or believing dumb comments, you know what I'm saying? Trying to get into that, right?

SPEAKER_01: 38:11

Um on the duality and polity, I did just want to say is that the biggest thing that they can offer to us is that there's a range, right? You don't necessarily have to be extreme right or extreme left, there's a range, and within that range, there's a place for everybody within that range, you know. I mean, so we used to say, get in where you fit in, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 38:31

Get in where you fit in, yeah. Now it's it's very because oh my god, like you know, being exposed to different school of thoughts, and you probably can add on to that. You you don't see when you try to when you look at the signs that's from the other school of thoughts, and you look at the signs that you're in now with your school of thought, you'd be like, Oh wow, you make the connection, like, oh, I see it right here.

SPEAKER_01: 38:52

Yeah, like it's the same, but just expressed differently, expressed differently, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:57

Yeah, like yeah, uh it is like you look at the um no, the gods will say knowledge, wisdom, understanding. And there are certain things you'd be like, strength wisdom, beauty, or cabalistic, you know, cat the hawk mobina, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03: 39:14

You're like, oh shoot, it's like yeah, it's a different thing, it's different, it's the same, but it's different.

SPEAKER_00: 39:22

It is different, but you'd be like, you know what? As you as you said earlier, these men were onto something, but I don't want to put that label on them because people would take it, you know, offensive. But you'd be like, this is wisdom that they have. It's it's not it wasn't unique, man.

SPEAKER_01: 39:37

No, no, it wasn't. It was essence, it was. I think they they described it, they used the word reveal, and I I don't know how true this is. I didn't look up the etymology on it, but some people say that reveal and reveal are like the same. So someone may have seen the wisdom and then they put their thing around it, you know, they put their company. On it, some people put different clothes, but it's all the same, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 40:05

Got you, got you. And so this is dope, man. Gotta get you back on your brother. We gotta go, we gotta go deeper. Um, how do um how do both systems portray the journey from ignorance to illumination?

SPEAKER_02: 40:18

Both systems, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:20

Like it's like let's go like for um all right, on the physical plane of initiation, and then we talk about the esoteric side of it from what you're going through. How does it reveal to one that one is you know, without reveal or revile anything that um basically shows one path to illumination?

SPEAKER_01: 40:42

Yeah, I I would say that it could be summed up in just being born in general, you know, if you have the awareness why you're being born, it's black, right? It's dark. I think uh they called it the perfect black in Egypt, right? It was the perfect blackness of the womb. And then when you're born, there's this light that rushes in, and you're not used, like in the matrix, they say you've never used your eyes before, so you don't really know what you're looking at. But then as time goes on and you have the experience of what we're calling life, you're you're understanding a little bit of what you've seen, you've been you're able to apply and get more experiences, and that's kind of like knowing that the journey of illumination is just that you'll never, it's not the destination of enlightenment, it's the journey, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 41:34

It's a journey, exactly. The journey which we pick up a lot more because something they say light attracts more light, still sharpen steel, and it's like little tools you'd be like, huh? A likes, a likes, yeah. It's it's powerful, it's beautiful, man. So for you, um what is the process psychologically of squaring the stone? The definition of squaring the stone psychologically, what does it mean to one?

SPEAKER_01: 42:05

Psychologically squaring the stone. So when when we what is okay, you had to put the stone into a particular context, right? So if you if you're squaring something, that means that you're changing its shape. Yeah. So you're changing it its shape, so it based on the information, it wasn't square to begin with, right?

SPEAKER_00: 42:26

It wasn't.

SPEAKER_01: 42:27

Okay. So that means that it was uh if you're squaring it, then that means that you're using it, you're squaring it to be able to use it for a particular purpose. You have to change the shape because in the state that it's in, in its natural state, is not going to be able to be used for the building that you're building. Right. So psychologically, it it begins with understanding that you're not perfect, you know, and that you can improve in certain things in order to get to where you want. Because I think that all people have a longing for something called better. Better is exactly it depends on the person what better is, but I think everyone longs for better. And then you look at where you are, and then you look at where better is, and you try to chip off certain things from yourself that may be uh keeping you from there, you know. Um, certain habits, certain ways of thinking, more particularly. And literally, you do have to change the way that you think if you're gonna get to where you want to go. So when we talk about psychologically squaring the stone, we're really talking about preparing your mind to take you to the place that you want to be.

SPEAKER_00: 43:48

That's a fact. That's a fact. That's dope. That's dope. That's dope. So, how long, how long have you been traveling for? You say so for like a quarter century, right?

SPEAKER_01: 43:58

Pretty close to it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 43:59

Quarter century. Were there any times you felt like you like discouraged on your on your journey?

SPEAKER_01: 44:05

All the time, all the time. I'm actually going through something like that right now. Yeah, all it's all the time, it's all the time because uh well, not you know, I think it was kind of obvious that before I became a Freemason, I was into the science already, right? And so there may be people that aren't necessarily into the science the way that I am, and that's not to say that one is higher than the other. That's not to say one is better than the other. Everybody have their own different path. But if I'm talking about one thing and then people that they just like, oh, we ain't trying to hear all of that, we just hear to feed the people. There's nothing wrong with that. Go ahead, feed the people. I'll feed the people too, but what about this over here? Or you know what I mean? Yeah, and and what I'm finding is that especially in the South, the the Bible belt, I often have a hard time discussing certain aspects, um, like correspondences, like say with maybe with the Hebrew letters, for example, and certain things that we did. You know, they don't want to hear that this is the Bible. So sometimes that that can be a little dis a little discouraging, and then seeing how the the society changes over time, you know. You can't do nothing about that and just hope that we we select the best people possible, you know, and not just people that just want to get in to see what it's about and then never show back up again. You know, it's a lot of I've seen that video.

SPEAKER_00: 45:49

I remember when I got initiated, it was like it was three brothers, one being my cousins and another brother. And you know, we did the first the first round, never heard from again. Like, you know, they uh they never came back. I'm like, all right, maybe they just came out of curiosity, but I remember I stayed, and I was the only one within my group that stayed. A lot of people, it's this it's not you know made for the week, like the dedication and the constant studying yourself and you know facing uh facing your fears, knowing you know when to be quiet, and it's not not out of um basically uh other individuals outside stimulus, it's one from yourself because now your microcosm has been rocked. You've been humbled. So it's like what you thought you knew of yourself is not who you are. You're like, that's not me. Yeah, yeah, that's not me. And then when you advance to the height to other degrees, like that to the second degree. I was like, Oh, okay, this is different. This is where this is real, right here. The things I was learning. I'm like, okay, like you know, it's pretty, it's pretty deep, man. So I know that feeling of feeling sometimes you be discouraged because it's like people don't understand, like where you're coming from, how you see things now.

SPEAKER_01: 47:10

It's especially people on TikTok, man. Every other comment is you devil worshiping, every other comment is oh, what did Alice the Crowley say? Like, I'm not even a pro in saying it. Get out of my comments with that. You know what I mean? It's just like they just assume that you must be some kind of worship individual, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 47:32

You gotta forgive them because it's like people man fear what he doesn't know. Of course, they're gonna throw dirt. It's like you can't cast pearls before swine. And I'm not gonna try to sit here and explain it to you because no, I don't drink out of I don't drink blood out of a cup, out of a skull. We're not running around naked, it's not looking like a ditty party. We don't have no baby oil on us, and we're not you know, chanting nothing crazy. If you want to know, go knock on the doors and find out yourself, and you realize you'll meet a lot of cool brothers within there. A lot of some people you thought you would never come across, you're like, Damn, I didn't know you were here. You know, as many times I woke and I'm like, yo, I didn't know he was one of that. It's wild, like yeah, dude. I know you for like 20 years, dude. I know you were a part of this, and you know, it's pretty, it's pretty it's pretty dope, man. And I see in your background on your page as well on TikTok. If you guys want to know more about this brother, you go on TikTok, you find him. I see you got the tarot tarot, the tarot symbol in the background. Do you dabble into that?

SPEAKER_01: 48:30

Yeah, oh yeah, sure. I believe uh fully that it is a representation of the initiatic experience, right? So I know a lot of people don't necessarily see it that way. Um, but the magician, in particular, I would say represents uh a stage of understanding that the elements are in your hands, and you can make or break your own future based on what you do. To me, that's what the magician is all about, you know. But before the magician, you're the fool, right? The first one is the fool. He got his head in the sky, he got uh his clothes and uh and a little stick, and he's stepping off of a cliff getting ready to die. Yeah, that's the fool, right? And to me, that reminds me of the of the first degree, you know. You just have this faith that no matter what, everything's gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_00: 49:22

You know, whatever happens, happens, right? I remember my brother Ron told a story that when he first jumped into Masonry. He said, Yo, he explained it on the show before. He said he got there in the basement. He's like, yo, if any he was you know blindfolded. He said, if anything happens weird here, I am swinging. I'm not gonna lie, what mine was like that, but it was just like when I yo bro, all I gotta say is like the tactic. I remember it happening here in food. It was weird when I got when I heard some dudes like mommy, screaming, mommy. So I'm like, yo, what's going on? What's going on over there, bro? No, no, sit down. I'm like, you sure? I'm like, yo, bro, you sure, right? They're like, yeah, I'm like, all right, it might have the same thing. I'm like, they're about to know who I really am. Every piece of furniture in here will start flying. I am swinging on dudes, bro. But not it was it was all good, but I know the feeling, yeah, because I'm like, yo, yo, yo, what's up with that? Yo, yo, what's going on, man? Like, yo, is he good? Right, right. Oh man, I want to go back.

SPEAKER_01: 50:46

You gotta always remember your face at the end of the day. That's really the only thing that we have.

SPEAKER_00: 50:52

Yeah, that's what yo, that's funny, man. I bet you everyone's story of the first time was like, yo, what is going on down there? You know, but I think that's part of the framework, it's part of the process. It's to really, as you said, the fool. Do you know what you're doing? You know, are you ready to commit? Because it does bring it does take a lot from you, too, man. And then after a while, you you you're you're fine.

SPEAKER_01: 51:19

And let's also say that there's a lot of people that say that they have faith, and they don't.

SPEAKER_00: 51:26

They don't, right?

SPEAKER_01: 51:28

This process is gonna show if you really got it, or if you don't, yeah, yeah, because you think you think that first one is is something.

SPEAKER_00: 51:38

All right, we'll see next time. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 51:42

Like you certainly believe in God, but do you yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 51:47

Do you it's do you know God or you believe in God? You you're gonna find out right there's a distance between knowing and believing, and trust me, I'm still learning. So, the question I have um, how does the lodge function as a microcosm of a broader society?

SPEAKER_01: 52:07

Well, it kind of goes back to um what we were discussing before we came on, right? In terms of uh your lodge, and we discussing how the membership of the lodge or the lodge takes on the culture of those who are in it, right? So if you go to my lodge, which is in Covington, Georgia, you're gonna have a different perspective than you would from somebody whose members are from Atlanta, Georgia, because even though we're all in Georgia, you have a more rural area versus the city. So those are different lifestyles, you know. I mean, so in terms of the lodge being a microcosm of the whole, I think it allows for people, so long as you have a belief in God, to be able to come together, and they might not otherwise have ever come together, you know. Uh I can't think of any other scenario where you would see devout Christians and Muslims in the same place talking. You know what I mean? That's not uh a religious thing, you know, it's just you who you are kind of thing. And you just happen to be a Christian, he happens to be a Muslim, he happens to be a Hindu, you know. So in that way, I think Freemasonry kind of exhibits a kind of universal appeal in a sense that you know it's kind of you know, just if you're about making a society better, come on in so that we can work together instead of letting these things keep us apart.

SPEAKER_00: 53:35

And that's a fact with that. That's a fact. Before we get up out of here, you said you were in Lantern. Did you ever cross path with uh the wapian Grand Lodge?

SPEAKER_01: 53:45

Absolutely, yeah. They were pretty big when I got here in Georgia, like they had just opened their Grand Lodge. And I used to be downtown all the time on Auburn Avenue, and they'd be out, you know, uh not like the Hebrew Israelites, but they would hold classes outside, and then they would pretty much break your belief system. If you didn't, if you didn't know what you was talking about with your religion, then the Waffins would get at you, right? And then they they opened up their own lodge, and they would run pretty good until you know he got taken down for that thing, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 54:23

Yeah, and I'm not even touching that, but yeah. Yeah, because I I heard about that lodge. I heard about that lodge. And I was wondering, are they still in are they still functioning?

SPEAKER_01: 54:31

Are they still I don't think so? I think um from the new opians that I knew before what happened happened, they literally disappeared like the next day. They had a store down in Riverdale, Georgia that closed the next day. I used to go there and get all my books and stuff packed up. I couldn't find the new opinion for like two or three years after the incident happened, you know. So wow, yeah. I don't think their lodges in existence anymore.

SPEAKER_00: 55:00

Oh that that's crazy, brother Soul, man. It was a pleasure to have you on here, my man.

SPEAKER_01: 55:04

Yes, sir. Thank you for having me on. I appreciate the chat.

SPEAKER_00: 55:08

Now we gotta get you back on here, man. We gotta talk more. We're gonna talk more about some, you know, some other ideas we're gonna bring on here, man. I think we gotta go step, put the gas on this esoteric teaching for the people, man.

SPEAKER_01: 55:19

Absolutely. That's what I like.

SPEAKER_00: 55:21

Yeah, because our elders, you know, shout out to Bobby Hemett. You know, they laid a foundation for us, so it's time for us to keep it going. And um, rest in peace, brother panic. So yeah, man. I think our people need that stuff. My people, don't forget to comment, like, share, subscribe. We're gonna have brother Soul Magic come back. With that being said, NYP Talk Show, we out.