Islam: Sunni VS Sufism , A deep dive into the differences and similarities - Salman & Modibbo

Sunni Islam and Sufism get argued about like they’re opposites, but we wanted to slow down and actually define what each path claims to protect and what each path tries to heal. We start with the big frame: exoteric religion as the outward vessel, and esoteric practice as the inward work. From Sharia, fiqh, and the role of the ulama to Tasawwuf, Ihsan, and “jurisprudence of the heart,” we lay out why one side prioritizes preservation of the community while the other insists the law has to become lived reality inside the self.

We dig into the prophetic model, the Ahl al-Suffa, and the idea that scripture can carry both literal meaning and deeper layers. Then we get practical: dhikr, salawat, controlled breath, focus, and the constant return to the heart as the place where belief becomes character. We also take on the controversial parts that people avoid, including saints, tawassul, shrine visitation, and why reform movements label those practices as innovation. Along the way, we connect dots to Imam al-Ghazali’s bridge between outward law and inward transformation, plus how modern Wahhabi and Salafi currents shaped today’s tensions.

We close by widening the lens to Shia esotericism, Sufi lineages through Imam Ali, fanah and baqah, and why poetry and music show up when ordinary language fails. If you’ve ever felt pulled between structure and spirit, this is for you. Subscribe, share this with a friend who loves Islamic spirituality, and leave a review with the question you still have after listening.

Transcript

Welcome And Going Live

SPEAKER_01 0:02

All right, what's going on, everybody out there? It's Ron Brown uh Ron. I gotta get used to this, y'all. Pardon me. It's Ron Sol Brother Number One Report for Duty. Thank you, brothers, for coming out this evening. For those who are on the chat, uh, thank you for coming out this evening to view this uh wonderful presentation by my brothers. Uh, you've seen them on the podcast a few times. Uh, they've been on the podcast for a little while now, right? Like uh at least over a year, right? Yeah, okay. At least over the year, over over a year. Thank you, brothers, for you know, contributing to the podcast. I really appreciate you. We didn't put the intro up there to just to make sure that we can go live on Instagram. Hold on, yo. Let's go live on Instagram. Hold on. All right, we are live on Instagram. Now we are live on all the different platforms. Now, uh,

Why Sunni And Sufi Differences Matter

SPEAKER_01 1:02

we're gonna talk about uh Islam Sunni versus Sufism, a deep dive into the differences and similarities. Uh, and you know, I'm gonna just let you brothers have the floor. I'm gonna go off the screen, and if you need uh uh any uh slides to be added, just uh, you know, I'm here.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Uh can I do the uh the screen share, uh brother Ron, right now? Sure. Okay, let me do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

All right, ready to go. You got the floor, brother.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

I want to say uh Asalamulaikum Rahmutullah Barakatuhu, greetings in peace, and start this with Bismillah Rahman Rahim, and I dedicate today's talk to Brother Ron Brown, the NYP talk show family, Sheikh Bilal, my beloved brothers. Thank you so much for having me on. I I got cut off there for a second. We're having thunderstorms here in Philadelphia, so my my power was glitching a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Okay, gotcha. Yeah, it it you just like frozen for a second.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Yep, yep. The weather the weather's been kind of strange over here, so hopefully everything stays okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

Likewise, because something similar is in our forecast down here in Georgia, so Lord knows what's going on up there.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

At it again. Boom, there you go.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

So uh today's conversation, I wanted to do a um a back and forth with Sheikh Bilal about Sunni Islam and Sufism, the shared roots, the different paths, and the search for the divine. And a disclaimer that this presentation is for educational and entertainment purposes. And I dedicate this to Brother Ron Brown, the NYP family, Sheikh Bilal, and all of our friends and brothers and sisters. Now, the first thing we have to look at, what I'll do is like each slide, I will give my point of view, and I will let Sheikh Bilal build on top of that, and we do that for the whole presentation. So we look at like the dual nature of faith, where we see that across almost every major world religion, we find a historical and theological division between the exoteric and the esoteric, the outward public practice of the faith and the inward hidden dimensions of spiritual realization. Now, in the Islamic tradition, this dynamic is vividly illustrated by the relationship between mainstream Sunni Islam and Taswuf, known in the West as Sufism. To understand their relationship is to understand the difference between reading a map of the ocean and actually diving into its depths. Now, mainstream Sunni Islam has historically focused on the preservation of the community, the establishment of the jurisprudence and the adherence to the Sharia, Sharia law, or Islamic law. It provides the structured foundational vessel that holds the faith together across the diverse cultures. Sufism, on the other hand, is the spiritual discipline focused on purifying the heart, removing the ego, and experiencing a direct personal realization of God's presence. And today we explore how these forces have interacted. Uh Sheikh Bilal.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Alhamdulillah. Just with that first part of that first sentence across almost every major world religion. And honestly, dare I say every major, major world religion, there's always some kind of uh division between the outer and the inner. Similar to kind of what some of us understand over here in the West, like me and uh people in the deep south coming up from Christianity. We hear uh the standard things that are talked about in the sermon over and over. And later on in life, you know, if you're gonna study like me and you bump into teachings like uh Jesus and Thomas, the Gospel of Thomas, and you realize how deep those teachings are compared to you know the teachings that you were getting every single Sunday. You put them side by side and you're still able to see Christianity in both of those, both the esoteric that you get every Sunday because that structure is still needed, and also in the esoteric. And, you know, the thing about the esoteric is you know, it's I won't say it's not for everyone, but as we'll see along the way, that it's a journey to to get there. You can't you can't fast forward to the last step.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, there's always an inner temple and an outer temple, and it's a foundation break by break where you gotta layer uh layer it up. You you laid it out perfectly.

Foundations Of Sunni Islam

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Now, now we look at the foundations of Sunni Islam. Now, to accurately compare Sufism to mainstream Sunni Islam, we must first define the perimeters of the Sunni tradition. Now, the term quote Sunni, right, derives from the phrase Allah al-Sunnah wal al-Jamah, which translates to the people of the prophetic tradition and the consensus of the community. Now, mainstream Sunni Islam is primarily concerned with establishing a righteous society and individual piety through strict adherence to the Quran and the Sunnah, the recorded words, actions, and approvals of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Now, at the heart of the Sunni framework is the Sharia, which is the moral and legal code of Islam, governed by the scholars known as the Ulama. The Ulema serve as the guardians of the faith, specializing in fiqh, which is jurisprudence, categorized into the four major schools of thought. In this mainstream perspective, salvation and divine pleasure are achieved through obedience to divine law, the fulfillment of the five pillars, and the maintenance of a moral life framing the relationship as master and servant.

What Tasawwuf Tries To Do

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Now, defining Tasabof, Sufism, while mainstream Sunniism focuses heavily on the jurisprudence of the physical actions, Sufism or Tasabuf focuses entirely on the jurisprudence of the heart, the teachings of the heart. Sufism is not a separate sect of Islam, rather, it is best understood as the esoteric inner temple, mystical dimension of the Islamic faith. If the Sharia is the circumference of a circle, the Tariqah, the Sufi spiritual path, is the radius that leads inward to the Hakika and Marifa, the ultimate divine truth. Sufism is heavily grounded in the Islamic concept of Isan, worshipping God as if you see him. The Sufi path is dedicated to achieving this state by stripping away the nafs or the lower self, the ego, through rigorous spiritual discipline. For the Sufi, simply obeying the law is not enough. The law must be internalized. They seek to transition from a religion of inherited beliefs to a religion of direct experiential certainty. So there's like a learning phase of knowledge and application phase of knowledge, and Sufism is that application phase of Islam. Sheikh Bilal? Indeed.

SPEAKER_03 9:24

I almost wasn't ready to pose a question. So uh would it would um I dare to say that if if what's being uh done by a person is not pragmatic, I think is it Sufism? If it's not pragmatic, if it's not internalized and externalized, is it is it really? And I bring that up because of uh one I want to shake off with one of the shortest poems, those only four lines called uh soon, because you know, soon in Arabic just has two letters, but it does, it's acrostic, he'll he'll you know have letters and whatnot that's that symbolize other things. But again, it's a it's a poem by Sufi Sheikh that most would probably turn themselves away from just by hearing it. A poem by Sufi Sheikh. But they wouldn't just look at the Arabic and then realize what the Arabic is saying. It's essentially going through the exact same thing that we just went through in these few slides. Um Dinah, the worshipers of the Lord of Mindkind. Like not just Muslims do that, but Sufis still do the exact same thing, maybe a different degree, but still worshiping the same exact Lord of mankind. Or for the sake of his noble, or sometimes you get Kareem genera uh translated as noble or generous. I don't know if you've noticed that sometimes, um, but for the sake of his noble or generous face, we all are striving. Again, whether it's Muslim or whether Sufi, whether Sunni, or whether it's Sufi.

unknown 11:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

That that striving reminds me of that jaha that everybody's going through on the on the inside to a different degree again. And now we get umada tima. The benefit of that worship that he's explaining is with ikhlasi or sincerity or ikhlasi, he brings us through that same safety, that same security by way of sincerity, or by way of ikhlas, by way of. So no matter you know how that those four lines are explained, somebody will still catch names of Allah and know what those names mean. They'll know how to embody them, they'll still catch two chapters of the Quran being mentioned, and they'll know what those chapters of the Quran are about. Every single thing that they're able to pull out of teachings like that, whether it's a sixty-minded or simply-minded person, is still based off of Islam. And like we're going through here, if it's internalized, then whether the person knows it or not, it's just really esoteric then. At that point, the alchemy is starting to take place.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Yeah, definitely. And it it is that alchemical process of coming to that God realization. And um, you laid it out perfectly, Shaykh Bila, Alhamdulillah.

The Prophet As Outer And Inner Model

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Now, now we move on to the prophetic example where the relationship between the outer law and the inner path finds its ultimate origin in the life of the Prophet Muhammad himself, who embodies both archetypes simultaneously. Now, for mainstream Sunni scholars, the Prophet is the ultimate lawgiver, the statesman, the military commander, and the social reformer who built a cohesive community and established a detailed legal framework for justice, commerce, and family life. His public life in Medina serves as the foundational blueprint. Even what we see in America with freedom of religion, Thomas Jefferson's Quran was inspired from the Charter of Medina, where the Prophet gave rights to the Jews and Christians who were being persecuted by the Arab tribes. Now, the Sufis, however, look to a different aspect of the Prophet's life as their foundational archetype. Before the revelations began, Prophet Muhammad would retreat for days into the cave of Hera, emerging and engaging in deep contemplation. Furthermore, the Sufis emphasized the spiritual phenomena of the Miraj, the Prophet's miraculous night journey and ascension. For the mystics, this is the ultimate proof that the human consciousness can transcend the physical realm and experience the direct presence of the divine. One of my Sufi teachers in Pakistan, now, this information is not really talked about in the West. He was saying that there was time and space got bended when the prophet went to the Mirage. He went to the seven heavens. He actually stayed there for 20 years. Like he actually led all of the prophets and angels and prayers and all of that. And he led them as a commander in the heavens. But how time and space works is by the time he was returned to his body after the Mirage, it's like the door was still moving. You know, the time had freeze. But he when he went to the Miraj, it was 20 years, earth years over there, and he came back like you know, not a second had passed. So that is the um, you know, the one of the miracles of the Mirage as well, as told in the Sufi circles of Pakistan. So what do you think about that, Sheikh Bilal?

SPEAKER_03 14:43

That brought me back to what um what Bamba said in uh Khadim al-Man Najat or the the seal of his intimate conversation with Allah. And that's that's also another poem that's not really talked about much because I don't know. I I I sometimes pretend to be real orthodox minded and then read some of his poem just to see how mind-blown I'd be. Yeah. But to uh to see him write something with such confidence to the degree of him and Allah uh had a conversation 70,000 years before the creation, determining what his uh mission would be when he were to come to earth 70,000 years later. Yeah. That that that might be um a lot. However, just like he explained it here, it's all encompassing, it's all based off of the exact same system. It's not mathematics and it's not Islam, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:37

That definitely. It's it's really beautiful, brother. Now we look at the the Ahl al-Sufa, right?

The People Of The Bench

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Now, when searching for the earliest historical roots of Sufism, scholars inevitably point to a specific group of the Prophet's companions known as the Ahlal Sufa or the People of the Bench. These individuals lived in absolute poverty on a raised platform adjacent to the Prophet's mosque in Medina. They possessed no worldly wealth, dedicated their entire existence to prayer, fasting, and absorbing the teachings of the Prophet. The people of the bench functioned as an elite spiritual vanguard, while the rest of the society was building infrastructure and trading. This group focused entirely on the internal architecture of the soul. Their voluntary poverty and intense devotion became the gold standard for later Sufi aesthetics. Now, the word Sufi is often historically linked to the word Sufa, acknowledging this primordial seed of Islamic mysticism. So basically, these guys, if you have the operative masonry and the speculative masonry, and they were the speculative ones who were building themselves internally. And the Prophet Muhammad himself was a widowed son. He had lost his mother, uh, he had lost his father, excuse me, at an early age, raised by his mother till the age of six, then by his uncle. His first wife, Katija, was a widow. And uh how he basically he said that I have come to perfect the character of mankind to basically build us up into the perfect Ashler stones. So that's a tradition that many people don't seem to pay attention to. That it's all all of these teachings and what it's telling us to do, it's all relative and tied in together.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Very intrinsically connected. If that wasn't you describing him taking a good Muslim and making him a better Muslim. Yep. You know, I don't I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Take a good man and make him into a better man. So with with Mark 4.11 in the kingdom, now we see that even with Prophet Isa, Jesus, peace be upon him.

Parables, Secrets, And Esoteric Meaning

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Now, this dynamic between public preaching and private esoteric instruction is not unique to Islam, it is a universal hallmark of ancient spiritual traditions. We see a striking parallel in the Christian New Testament, specifically in Mark 4.11. When asked by his disciples why he speaks to the masses in parables, Isa Jesus replies, To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God. But for those outside, everything comes in parables. Now, in the context of our discussion, mainstream Sunni Islam represents the outside, the profane world, right? Even what the Masons say, the parables, literal laws, and public rituals. Sufism represents the inner circle, the disciples who are given the secret of the kingdom. The Sufi tradition maintains that the Prophet Muhammad transmitted specific esoteric invocations and secrets of the heart exclusively to certain companions, arguing that the Quran contains both literal tafsir and the hidden taweel layers of meaning. And even if you look at the oath of Ridwan, when the Prophet and his companions, you see that royal arch comparison, right? Brothers and companions, uh, he took the oath of Ridwan basically under the acacia tree, right? The sprig of acacia, which signifies immortality of the soul. So they took their oath with the Prophet, like, you know, to transmit these secrets under the acacia tree. So that's all relative on these esoteric traditions. And Islam itself is not showing itself to be a new religion. It is an ancient religion since the time of Sumerians and Egyptians that was revealed in degrees and stages over time until the final revelation of the Prophet Muhammad in Mecca. And in Surah 5, Allah tells you, now I have perfected your religion. So it is the same ancient religion that connects Solomon, Moses, Jesus, um, the ancient Egyptians, all the way to what we're dealing with now, submission to the will of God. And uh that's something that if you uh talk to the modern Sunni about that, you know, they start calling me a kafir or a heretic. You know how it is, Sheikh Bilal.

SPEAKER_03 19:57

Yeah, alhamdulillah for the haters, man. They only make me want to do better.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

I had I had a guy reach out to me on TikTok earlier today, and he was calling me a kafir for connecting masonry to Islam. And I'm like, brother, because of this, I brought I actually brought several Masons to Islam and took a shahada. Like, you know, what have you done? Like to improve the dollar.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Now, I have a quick

God, Self, And Divine Attributes

SPEAKER_01 20:22

question. So uh maybe this will take a while to answer, not sure. Now, I'm trying to figure out the connection between the man being God, right? As we would say, the original man being God, and what would Sunnis and Sufis consider God? Would God be outside or greater than man? What's the general consistent consensus on that?

SPEAKER_03 20:53

Well, how it's different from the further eastern perspective with the Brother Salmon, but at least from over here, um, I've seen the names and attributes of Allah be lifted above the person themselves so much to where they become unattainable by the person. So, you know, to kind of hint at that question right now, that person can't realize that those attributes are actually latent within him. You know, all of these things he described in its son being completely outside of himself is actually within him. Also, you know, so to that type of mind, it might be kind of difficult to grasp because it's it's never really given like that on Fridays during the Kuklay at all. There might be a hint here or there or a Quran verse that kind of points towards a thing like that, but it's not really self-defined like that. And at least from the the Sufi orders I've I've been a part of, I'm morted uh by fall and and T. Johnny, it's it's it's in the teachings for sure. Um I think it's almost the same as like some of the Masonic teachings over here to where it's Not uh just plain as day, boom, you're God, but it's uh worded and taught in such a way that like you kind of get absorbed in the teaching of you you study it a little bit deeper, and when you come back out, uh parts of those teachings are still embedded within you. So it does change the person at that point. That's esoteric, true enough. But to the the previous type of mind, me saying that I can be uh wad, like for example, like I can't be al-wad, the source of uh love, the source of that which causes us to feel it in the first place, but I can exude that feeling, like I can do something for somebody to where it will allow them to exude that feeling of love, also.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Yeah, that's that's that's right, Sheikh Bilal. And I think you you explained it in a beautiful way. Um with the Sufi teachers that I spent my time in Pakistan, they basically tell us, La ilaha illallah, there is no God but God, and God is the only reality, meaning you and I, Brother Ron, or brothers and sisters of NYP, we're all extensions of that one deity, experiencing itself through itself. When Allah created Adam, he placed all of those attributes inside that being and made him the vice gerent of this earth, the representative of God on this earth. And not only this earth, but the universe and the cosmos, meaning after God, man is the highest ranking deputy and creature in in the whole universe. And when Iblis or Lucifer was instructed to bow before Adam, he was not technically told to bow to man, he was technical technically told to bow before a conduit or another extension of Allah. So man has such a high responsibility and the intellect and the akqal, the free will and accord that we've been given. We have a great responsibility to ourselves, to each other. Um, instead of blaming God, God has given us the world and each other. We have to come together and make our lives better and make the community better, make each other better. And uh that's basically it. And there's a hadith that when you come to that God realization, Allah tells you, I become the eye, I see through your eyes, I act through your eyes, you know, the hand, I become your hand, I become your eyesight. So basically, once you come to that realization, right, it's what Father Allah is teaching you, it's what uh noble Dura Ali of the Moors is teaching you, Allah's in the heart, what the Mecca Quran is telling you that Allah is closer to us than our jugular vein. So the external stuff like uh the traditional Sunni masjid or this other stuff here and there, um it's all good, right? You know, you pray, you make salat, you fast in Ramadan and all that stuff. But it's it's it's such a beautiful universal concept that it's about the uprightness of your character. Like it even says in Surah 2, verse 62, that Allah really doesn't care what religion you follow as long as you're an upright, righteous individual. So that determines like how we ascend in this life and what happens to us after we leave from here. And that's something um instead of the dogmatic and the sectarianism stuff, once we you know go into that, like that kind of like dissolves all of the borders.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Because we all gotta go with it.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Yep, yep. Was I able to answer your question, brother Ron?

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Yes, sir. Uh the my only now, if I was a um, you know, I don't know if any five percenters are on, I got a king with uh math is the law seven on on the check-in. Um the way you answered was fine for me because you know uh uh I can like comprehend pretty well. Uh um uh but let's say if uh you have more of a like a rigid kind of five percenter, like less flexible, um you know, uh, or open-minded, if you will. Um uh that that answer wouldn't be enough.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

It wouldn't be enough.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Thank you, brother. Now, as we continue with the presentation, we look at the inner and outer temple.

Outer Temple Versus Inner Temple

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Now, if we the view the religion right through the lens of initiatic systems, we can conceptualize mainstream religion as the outer temple and the mysticism as the inner temple, right? Even in Mark 4.11, Jesus says the same thing, Prophet Muhammad with people of the bench. Now, the outer temple is accessible to everyone, which requires no special initiation. In Sunni Islam, this is the realm of the local masjid, the fasting of Ramadan, the public pilgrimage. It focuses on maintaining order and forms the structural walls that protect the faith. Now, however, to enter the inner temple, one must undergo an initiation known as the bayah, a formal pledge to a living spiritual master. Inside this temple, the rules change. Fasting goes beyond withholding food to withholding negative thoughts. Pilgrimage is a journey into the center of one's own heart. So Mecca, Medina, all that is within your own heart. Sufism operates as this inner temple, preserving the esoteric mysteries behind the protective walls of the mainstream sharia. Now we look at the asceticism to mysticism.

Ascetic Roots And The Turn To Love

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Historically, Sufism did not begin as the highly organized system we know today. It began as a reactive movement of extreme asceticism known as the Zahud. As the Islamic Empire expanded, bringing unprecedented wealth and luxury to the Umayyad and Abbasid courts. Early pious Muslims retreated from society. Figures like Hassan al-Basri warned of the dangers of hellfire and preached a life of weeping, fasting, and rejection of material wealth, wearing the rough wool, the Suf. Over time, this fear-based asceticism blossomed into a profound mysticism centered entirely on divine love. This shift is famously attributed to Rabia al-Adawiya, Rabia al-Basri, a female mystic from Basra. She famously declared she wanted to burn down heaven and put out the fires of hell so that humans would worship God purely out of love for him, not out of desire for reward or fear of punishment, moving Sufism towards a psychological pursuit of union. So basically, this kind of brought the aspect of love through the divine feminine into Sufism and how Islam itself is a very divine feminine religion where the prophet gave rights to the women and uh all of that in between.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

Indeed, the most holy day is on a Friday, right? I don't know if we can get too deep into how female Fridays are, but you know, it's it's kind of it's kind of plain as day. Venus. So uh yeah, exactly. And this um this the Sufism we know today, I think it was Shakespeare and that that mentioned that back then what we call Sufism today was practice without a name. And it was just a way that people were, there was a outer inner tradition, and everybody just knew that's how it was. And nowadays, Sufism is a name without a practice.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Yeah, everybody got I don't mean, oh, I'm sorry. Wait, where you go ahead, bro? Uh so I just want to add on, I want the God to add on his piece. Uh he said, man, uh he's saying uh the brother uh salmon said uh man is God's right hand, man has all his attributes. We say there's no difference between Allah and self, and all the attributes of Allah affirmed this. Not everyone goes as far as we do, meaning the five percent. Basically, a five percent nation is just giving it to you, you know, raw and uncut. Straight, no chaser, straight to the point.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

You know, it can be kind of similarly attributed to uh Sufi practices when the the the not just the repetition of the prayer, La Ela, Haila La comes into practice, but when the person realizes how deep that actually is, it's this essentially the exact same thing. Yeah, there is no difference between this concept that people believe what our law is and what our law really is. There's no difference between this essence that animates my vessel and the essence that animates your vessel. There's no difference between anything and creation other than varying degrees of how it's created. And it's all created from the exact same essence.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

So um Yeah, that's definitely that's definitely right. See, that's why I always say that Father Allah was the first Sufi master in America, and the 5% movement is actually a Sufi order because they're giving you the God realization, raw and uncut, right at the front. Like you're not going through like all of the rigorous stuff in the beginning for you to come to that conclusion, you're given that truth right there on the front. So Father in Law was the um first Sufi master in America, and uh the 5% movement, in my eyes, it was the Sufi Tariqah and order that was established by Father Allah. That's peace, that's peace. Yep,

Tariqah, Silsila, And Spiritual Authority

SPEAKER_00 31:48

yeah. So, you know, as as we talk about tariqah and silsala, now now we see that as centuries progressed, the informal gatherings of the mystics institutionalized into structured orders known as the tariqahs, such as the Qatariya and the Nakshmandiyah, even the five percenters, right? We can include that in there. Unlike mainstream Sunni Islam, where one can simply read a book of jurisprudence, the Sufi path absolutely requires a living guide. For the five percent, that's Father Allah. The sheikh or the murshid acts as a spiritual physician who diagnoses the diseases of the disciples' ego and prescribes specific spiritual exercises to cure them, the zikrs. Now the legitimacy of the tariqah is entirely dependent on the Silsalah, which is a continuous unbroken chain of spiritual transmission dating back to the Prophet Muhammad, highly comparable to the way the succession of the apostles is. Now the Sufis uh they they believe that spiritual energy or barakah flows down this chain, while a mainstream scholar gains authority through academic mastery. A Sufi sheikh derives authority purely through this esoteric lineage and experiential realization. Now, Islam itself being an ancient religion, we see that these mystics of the inner temple, they always existed since the time of ancient Egypt to um Jesus' missing years when he went to India, um the Persian Magi's, all of those were Sufis, like you know, before they were known as Sufis. It was just a continuing line of that same ancient tradition that Islam honors itself as, right? With all the prophets and messengers who all came with the same message. So that that's basically it. And what what what the goal is at the end of the day is just the epistemology, knowing God. Know thyself, you know thy Lord, you know thy Lord, you know thyself.

Knowing God Through Experience

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Now, one of the most profound differences between mainstream Sunni Islam and Sufism lies in their epistemology, how humans acquire knowledge of God. Now, mainstream Sunni theology relies heavily on revelation combined with the rational intellect, known as kalam. For the Orthodox theologian, God is entirely transcendent. We know him by studying his revealed words using logic. The intellect, ekol, is their primary vehicle for faith, strictly maintaining boundaries between creator and the created. Now the Sufi path conversely argues that the intellect is a limited tool. True knowledge of God is achieved through tasting it, you know, the Dok and Kashuf, the unveiling, how even in the royal arch degree, they unveil, you go through the veils until the holiness of the Lord is revealed to you. This is experiential gnosis-based knowledge. Just as reading about honey cannot replicate its sweetness, right? Reading theology cannot replicate the direct experience of God. Sufis seek to polish the mirror of the heart through meditation to directly reflect the divine light. Sheikh Bilal.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

I have a question. Yes, sir. Uh the heart keeps coming up, the heart comes up a lot. And um, I don't know if you ever heard of um oh man. Oh my god, Joe Dispenza. And he talks about how the mind and the heart has to basically be one in order for you to manifest the things that you want in the physical reality.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

Yeah. I remember uh hearing this one phrase over and over in the church that uh never really made sense until I look back at it today and realize how damn esoteric it was. And we only heard it at the end. The pastors got done whipping everybody up in the frenzy, and then he says if all hearts and minds are clear, that part right there.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

That's funny. I remember that. Hearts and minds, hearts and minds. Oh man.

SPEAKER_03 35:59

And that walk the way it still stuck to me today, aligned with what the brother you were just building on. Like they have to be in in alignment, otherwise, uh be thinking one way and then acting another way. Right. And neither of those two lined up with each other. Like I'm a Muslim, I got my my big my big uh my toe bone and whatnot, but but it just seen me at the liquid store down the street just like this. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Yeah, definitely. You so you basically uh your outward uh appearance has to match the inward appearance as well. So that's why we see now the human heart is always under attack. They're always trying to traumatize us, separate us from each other, because Allah is in the station of the heart, the cult. Um, even the Moors, noble Druali is saying the same thing. So if we purify our heart through good deeds, thoughts, and actions, that is the station where we connect with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. And we look at that, right, as we move on with the practices and rituals, where the divergence in epistemology naturally leads to a massive divergence in spiritual practice.

Dhikr, Sama, Breath, And Discipline

SPEAKER_00 37:09

The standard practices of a mainstream Sunni Muslim are strictly defined by fiqh, which is the prayers, the fasting, the charity, the hajj. These rituals are highly structured and communal. While they involve inner focus, the primary criteria for validity are physical and legal correctness. Innovation in religion practice known as bidda is heavily discouraged to maintain original methodology. So many of the Sunnis they look at Sufism as biddha, which is like the in their eyes is illegal. So Sufi practices, while maintaining the foundational pillars of Islam, incorporate highly specialized ecstatic rituals designed to induce alter states of consciousness. The most central of these is zikr, or uh remembering God, remembering the word of God, or even in ancient Egypt, they called it Hakka, right? Eating the word of God. Now the rhythmic chanting of God's names often accompanied by controlled breathing. So master your breath. Furthermore, many orders engage in Sama, a spiritual concert, utilizing poetry, music, and physical movement, like the Kawali and the methyls that you see. So Kawali is very prevalent as well. While controversial to mainstream critics, Sufis view it as a tool to awaken the soul to divine ecstasy. So even Hazrat Inayat Khan, right? He was a musician. So music is not haram, the sounds of connecting to the heart. You have a great artist, even in our melanated community, earth, wind, and fire. I mean, you you listen to those kinds of music, especially of the 60s and 70s, that elevates your soul. So stuff like that is, you know, plus with the breathing, the meditation, the prayers, something the traditional Sunni might look down upon. But if you really look at the life of the prophets and what esoteric Islam is teaching you, um, that's exactly what it is. Sheikh Bilal.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Oh, real. I just want to recognize uh creator of the boundless universe. Thank you for the five bucks. Where is the closest place to reach Allah? In the heart. Right. That's uh in a uh Moorish Quran question, uh, Quran questions for Moorish American children, something like that.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

And then in the the hadith kutsi, where um um Allah Himself says that my heavens can't contain me, nor can my earth contain me. Short pause so people can think about that. But the heart of the true believer can contain me. Like we were hitting that on the on the video on Sunday, that heart has to be purified and cleaned out. Um the remembrance of God, Allah has to be in there, so those actions exude out. The person literally does become God-bodied. You know, I live too far in the south to run around until everybody died. Yeah, I'm God, it's just not that safe, you know. But as long as I know it, you know, it helps keep me balanced around a bunch of people who don't know that they are.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Right. Uh real quick, quick question. When I think about the heart and the uh mind, right? Um, I know the heart, I mean, I know the mind is is vast, right? So I would say, for lack of better term, the mind would be the universe, if you will, right? And now the heart, the heart would be what, you know, as far as with that concept in mind. I guess the heart, the mind would be the universe, the heart would be a smaller universe inside. I don't know. Um, uh another thing that comes to mind is the actual anatomy of the heart. When so when you talk about cleansing the heart and cleansing the mind, I'm thinking about the brain and I'm thinking about the heart, and I'm thinking about how meditation and uh uh focused breathing can calm the bring the heart rate down, you know, and clear the mind and you know get your heart rate down. So I'm thinking about anatomy, a lot of these things that come into mind. So uh, you know, to that point, to those points, uh, do you have anything in the Quran, in uh you know, in any of the Islamic teachings that uh talk about breathing the anatomy of the brain and the mind and how you can bring those two things together?

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Yeah, definitely. That's that's that's that's a great question. Uh go ahead, Shaykh Bilal.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

Stop I mean to cut you off. Uh um the Yayyah Baladin, salu alayhi wasalim ultestiman, oh you who believe, send prayers and peace upon him in abundance, or sending prayers upon the Prophet, uh saying prayers, period, doing your madrulisik in abundance. It's a straight up Quranic command, right? But then as far as science of the mind goes, if you make yourself consciously focused on positive and spiritual-oriented prayers for just say I sit and do this for 30 to 45 minutes, I don't let myself think of anything but the one prayer I'm repeating over and over and over. Whatever's happening outside, it don't matter, it doesn't exist, but the same prayer I'm repeating over and over and over. And like the brother were just getting at it, it it does induce a state of mind that you can't really attain by being distracted by all of that stuff going on out there. Right.

unknown 42:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Yeah, that's that that's definitely right. And um, you know, one thing that I learned from the um the Sufi order that I belong to in Pakistan, the Nax Bandi, they always tell us that when you breathe in, say the word Allah, and when you exhale, do who. Allah, who, and that helps like center your like heart, your spirit, and basically to realize that Allah was the hidden treasure who wished to know itself through itself. We let the problems of our communities, the divisions, the problems of the world kind of overwhelm us. But at the end of the day, we realize it's just one big illusion playing itself out. And how the Quran tells you that the life of this world is nothing but a game and a deception, but only if they knew by they it refers to humanity that we do live in a matrix type simulation, and it's our job to basically

Unity Beyond Labels In Community

SPEAKER_00 43:34

ascend higher to those realities of God and to cleanse the heart of negative thoughts, negative actions, negative deeds, um, to see oneness in everything. And basically, what it tells you that the true seeker of light, the true master, and the true initiate is the one who sees oneness in everything. Um, right now, the infighting in our communities, um, that kind of Of demonstrate that these people are not the masters that they're claiming to be. If you not, if you cannot see the oneness of your brothers and sisters as one divine being, you know, in different forms, uh, even in Sikhism, they tell you God is one. So it to have that true love and empathy for self and others, that is activating the heart and being a true initiate of the heart, knowing you kind of accelerated beyond the superficial dogmatic reality where 90% of people are stuck in, even the people of the conscious community.

SPEAKER_02 44:36

So definitely for sure.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

So like I was talking to um uh uh Sheikh before before we got on. Uh-huh. You know, uh sometimes people ask me, Hey, are you a five percenter? Are you a more? Are you nation of Islam? And in my mind, to me, it's such a dumb question, especially coming from people who really study this, right? I see everything as one. I don't I I don't see I don't see separation, you know. I see Islam.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

Definitely, and and and look at it this way Allah tells you that we are a nation of tribes and we are we have to get to know each other. So not everyone is going to be the same, and how with each nation a messenger was sent. So even myself being a Sunni Muslim from Pakistan, from the Sufi path, even involved in the Shia stuff. I had a dream um a few years ago when I was started doing my spiritual work. I saw the honorable Elijah Muhammad in my dream, and he's he we were like sitting together and he smiled at me. So that shows you the oneness of everything, right? With Far Muhammad, with Father Allah, with Noble Dru Ali, the Prophet Muhammad of Mecca, peace be upon him. So it's all relative and tied together. So I implore my brothers and sisters of the conscious community, come together and uplift yourself and uplift each other and do something positive for your community instead of like all of this infighting that we're seeing.

Saints, Shrines, And Intercession Debates

SPEAKER_00 46:12

So, you know, as we continue with the presentation, we talk about the saints and intercession, where another major point of distinction is the veneration of saints, known in Arabic as the Aliyah Lah, you know, the Aliyah or the Friends of God. In Sufism, the spiritual hierarchy of the universe is maintained by these hidden saints. So these are the secret chiefs where the Western occultism and esotericism stole that from Islam, the hidden saints or the secret chiefs, who are believed to possess profound spiritual power and the ability to perform miracles. Sufis actively engage in Tawatzul, seeking intercession through these saints, visiting tombs, and viewing the saint as a spiritual conduit of divine grace. Now, this practice has historically been a major flashpoint of tension with strictly Orthodox Sunni groups. While classical Sunni Islam did historically accommodate a degree of saint veneration, modern reformist movements view these practices with intense suspicion. The strict Orthodox perspective insists on a direct, immediated line of prayer to God, viewing the seeking of aid at shrines as dangerously bordering on shirk or polytheism. But the saint is basically he's like a lawyer, right? And Allah is the judge. So you go and may have a good relationship with the saint, and for his sake, you ask the saint and pray to Allah, Ya Allah, please bless my life and forgive me for the sake of this saint. And you ask that saint to put in a good word for you as well. It's like with Adam, right? Why did God forgive Adam after the fall? Adam said, Oh Allah, forgive me for the sake of Muhammad. And Allah asked him, Where did you see that? And he said, When you had um made me in in heaven, I saw it on your throne. La Illaha illallah, Muhammad Rasulallah. There is no God but God, and Muhammad is the messenger of God. So seeking aid and intercession through the Prophet himself or through the saints is it's not haram. You know, it's just the way they interpret it is kind of backwards. So there's nothing wrong with that at all. Shake the thing.

SPEAKER_03 48:29

Some salawat can also be seen as the same thing. Like certain prayers on the prophet can also be looked at in the same way as um some in the Orthodox crowd may shun what looks like ancestor worship or veneration or you know, the the the what seems to be worship of these saints. Because there's some prayers on the prophet that can get so deep to where it's just like this person in love with Muhammad or what? Like, is this really how deep some of these prayers are?

SPEAKER_00 49:02

Yeah, yeah. You know the prophet Prophet Muhammad himself, the archetype, um um, he basically said that I was a prophet 70,000 years when before when Adam was stuck between clay and water, even before the creation of Adam. So that archetype, that light, you know, that Nur Muhammad was a prophet, the first prophet and the last prophet, through the physical avatar of the prophet Muhammad in Mecca. So basically, Allah created the entire universe for the love of Muhammad and from the light of Muhammad. So when you are doing the salawats, there's a secret because we all come from that realm of Muhammad, and uh all of our names are Muhammad in that realm. So when you're doing the salawat, you're not only asking the Prophet for help and intercession, you're actually helping yourself. Because those salawats are like uh you're helping yourself. That's what even in the Quran it says Allah and the angels sent prayers upon the Prophet. So doing the salawat, that is like the key for any Sufi order to establish that link with Nabi Muhammad. And I I know from experience that when I asked the Prophet to personally interfere and intercede in my affairs, you know, things things got done for me. So that's that's the beauty of that, you know, that secret that's there. That this is a reality that is sometimes beyond our comprehension of what we're exactly what we're dealing with, that light of creation.

SPEAKER_01 50:36

So all right, so from what I learned, right, uh, if any five percenters on on and know this these these teachings, um five stages of consciousness, right? I don't know if you brothers know about the five stages of consciousness. Um one of the five stages of consciousness is the magnetic conscious. So I'm thinking that maybe you know, just hypothetically speaking, um uh you know maybe that's the magnetic consciousness when you pray, you draw things to you. It's your own mind.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

Yeah, I can I can see that lining up with what that would be the um the the sixth chakra for for people that attribute to that particular system. If you look at it, the sixth chakra is the only other or the last one that's in or a part of the body. The seventh chakra is usually floating above the head. But there's this little beam of light coming down from that seventh chakra down to the sixth in the in the head. That little beam of light is that that connection. You know, only only you can feel that and see not a hair on my arm is standing up just talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 51:49

Can't explain that. But as far as the 5% nation, man, what you just said, I I mean, we could we I could go on and on about that. Like uh in the nation, got something uh called uh uh you know, people not being able to rise above six.

SPEAKER_03 52:08

Same, yeah. The seven stations of the soul in Sufism is uh that we say that the the hardest one for people to get to is the fourth station. It's right in the middle out of seven, and the fourth station is also the heart. So the the the teachings themselves have uh the instances are kind of similar. They're worded a little different, like how you have five, but then the Sufis have the seven stations of the soul, but the the pieces in the middle all line up. Indeed.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

It's beautiful, right? See that that that that's what it is. If we see the oneness of everything, we see that all of these paths are teaching us that one divine truth, and how you have one mountaintop, but all these different pathways and trails are leading to that same destination. And that that's the beauty of all this.

Ghazali And The Sunni Sufi Bridge

SPEAKER_00 52:55

And uh as we move on with the presentation, we look at Imam al-Ghazali, right? Where despite these differences, Sufism and mainstream Sunni Islam were historically deeply intertwined. And the man who is credited with bridging that gap is the 11th century theologian Abu Hamid al-Ghazali. Now, Ghazali was the absolute pinnacle of mainstream Sunni scholarship, but he suffered a profound existential crisis, realizing that intellectual mastery had not brought spiritual peace. He abandoned his position, adopted the life of a Sufi aesthetic, and found the spiritual certainty he sought. Now, upon returning to public life, Ghazali wrote his Magnum opus, The Revival of the Religious Sciences, and I recommend everyone check this book out, which brilliantly synthesized the outward requirements of Sharia with the inward spiritual practices of Sufism. He argued that law without the spirit is a dead shell, but mysticism without the boundaries of the law is a dangerous delusion. Now, thanks to Ghazali, Sufism was largely integrated and accepted as a legitimate orthodox Islamic science for centuries. So first we had Rabi al-Basari, who kind of brought the love back in, and Ghazali, he synthesized it back into the mainstream

Wahhabi Reform And Modern Conflict

SPEAKER_00 54:18

stuff that we're seeing today. Now, the modern tensions that we're seeing is that despite Ghazali and what he did, the 18th and 19th centuries saw the rise of a puritanical reform movement within Sunni Islam, most notably the Wahhabi movement, right? The Wahhabi Salafi Takfiri, like these are the head choppers. These movements sought to strip Islam of centuries of culture, cultural accretions and foreign philosophical influences, aiming to return to a strictly literal foundationalist interpretation of the religion practiced by the earliest generations. Now, this was a uh a plot by British intelligence, right? Um, by white supremacy, Lawrence of Arabia. They wanted to infiltrate and compromise Islam. And the Arabs, of course, betrayed Islam like they always do, even the present situation with Gaza, where they uh betrayed the Ottoman Empire and allowed this infiltration to take place. Now, these reformist movements targeted Sufism directly, systematically condemning the veneration of saints, the building of shrines, and unquestioning obedience to spiritual masters. They framed Sufism not as the inner heart of Islam, but as a corrupting innovation that had weakened the Muslim world politically and spiritually. This ideological clash has resulted in the profound modern tensions and the marginalization of Sufi orders in various parts of the Islamic world. And we see that these people are still doing this stuff, like even with the latest um uh Epstein files, right? They found in there that ISIS, Al-Qaeda, all this stuff. It's it's the same people still doing what they're doing since the time of Lawrence of Arabia. So our people need to wake up and educate themselves and be able to see through all the BS. It's like what the Shia have demonstrated. Shia Islam has proven itself to be the truth as well. They are the only ones who fought for Gaza and like stood up for Gaza. The Houthis, Iran, Hezbollah, etc., etc. And still. Yep, the the Sunnis are compromised to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_03 56:32

So so much to the degree where um I think it was the second exile, the Sheikh Alpha Dubamba, there were some so many dignitaries that wanted to come to Mauritania to visit him, but they weren't able to make it. So there were some dignitaries from Medina that sent correspondence to Mauritania where he was in exile at. Now, from rewind that again, that's dignitaries from Medina sending correspondence to this black man in West Africa. And the correspondence is them asking him to pray for them because of the exact same thing that you were just talking about, about how the Wahhabis and the Salafis were literally going around forcing the reforms on people. And some of those correspondences mentioned who initiated those reforms too. So even Bamba and Senegal knew who initiated those reforms, but those same dictators were asking Bamba to pray for them.

SPEAKER_00 57:28

Definitely.

West African Islam And Culture

SPEAKER_00 57:29

And you know, one thing I have to address is Islam is for all the Ummah, for all humanity. And we can't let Arab culture or the way that they do things confuse us with, like, let's say, West African Islam. People who have experienced directly West African Islam or other cultural uh parts of the world, you will see like a big difference and how many of those movements even influenced the syncretic system of voodoo that we saw in New Orleans, um, and all of that in between. So, West African Islam is beautiful. So, as we move on with the Shia perspective, we understand that to fully understand the Islamic mysticism, we must briefly look to Shia Islam, where the relationship with Sufism takes on a fascinating complexity. So, Sufism is found both in Shia and Sunni Islam. Now, the 12 or Shia Islam is inherently esoteric. It shares a massive theological overlap with Sufism because both traditions fundamentally believe that the outward revelation of the Prophet Muhammad required an inward spiritual interpreter. Now the Shias look to the infallible Imams as the ultimate

Shia Esotericism And Sufi Lineages

SPEAKER_00 58:42

possessors of divine esoteric knowledge. The concept of Bilaya or divine spiritual authority is central to both. Almost all major Sufi orders trace their lineage directly through Ali ibn Abi Talib, Imam Ali, the first Shia Imam. Now, in this sense, early Shiism and early Sufism drank from the same exact well of Islamic esotericism. The focus on the inner meaning of the Quran and the necessity of a divinely guided leader are deeply shared architectural pillars. Now we see that with Sufi masters. There's always two of them, which represent Muhammad and Ali. We have Sheikh Ahmedamba, which represents Muhammad, and uh Sheikh Ibrahim Afal, who were who was the more like strict, right? Like he was the one like putting in the work. That's Imam Ali. Even the boxer Muhammad Ali, that energy of his name, Muhammad and Ali, and you know, just look at him, like how big of a legend he is. So basically, even with uh the Hashashin, the assassins, they were Shia Muslims, right, from the Ismaili-Nazari sect. And even till this day, they are very secretive of dealing with outsiders. So instead of just looking at Sunnism alone, we realize that this umbrella of Islam, especially Shi'ism, is like very heavy. And I know Shiism in West Africa is like a totally different ball game.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:10

You um the first time I found it in Senegal, man, it was mind-blowing to uh to hear General Kara uh drilling some of the bifurcal in a football field, literally reciting that same thing, Aliyun Wali a lot over and over and over and over and over again. So it definitely indeed is. And I don't know if you've ran across this before, but how we were mentioning the inner and outer teachings, how Jesus would give the outer discernment inner to others. Yeah. Um stop for a lot of the money to come at me, but the inner tradition was given to Alibn Talib eben Talib. I don't want to explain anything else because if the inner tradition was given to him, then the outer tradition was given to the other side.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

That's that that's exactly right. And you see, the prophet himself named Ali as his successor, that in order to accept me, you have to accept Ali as well, and how that reality is kind of intertwined with each other. So Ali is the one who picks up the sword and like puts in the work. And that's why, even now with the Shia that we're seeing today, I mean, it's quite self-explanatory. So we we as as we move on with the presentation, we look at the Shia and Sufi divergences, where despite these profound shared roots, Orthodox Shia Islam and organized Sufism have historically clashed over authority. For the Shia, the ultimate spiritual and esoteric authority is exclusive to the designated infallible Imams. When Sufi masters began to claim direct divine inspiration, spiritual unveilings, and the title of the spiritual access of the universe, Shia scholars viewed this as a direct usurpation of the Imam's exclusive cosmic role. Now, further, during the Safawid Empire in Persia, Iran, organized Sufi orders were frequently persecuted. The state scholars worked to consolidate religious authority and suppress the independent wandering dervishes whose ecstatic practices threaten the structured clerical establishment. Thus, while Shiaism contains a rich tradition of theoretical mysticism known as the Irfan, it has often maintained a cautious distance from the institutionalized Sufi brotherhoods. So the Shia they themselves are like dealing with their own Irfan and mysticism. Same with the Ismailis, they got their own reality that they're dealing with, and they try to keep themselves like very separate from traditional uh Sufism or traditional Sunni Islam. Now, as as we move on, what is the goal of all this, the Fanah and the Bakah?

Fanah, Baqah, And Killing The Ego

SPEAKER_00 1:02:57

Now, returning to the core theology of the mystic path, the ultimate goal of the Sufi is encapsulated in two concepts, Fanah and Bakah. Mainstream Sunni Islam teaches that salvation culminates in a paradise, a physical sensory reward. The Sufi, however, views paradise as a distraction if it does not contain the presence of the beloved, God. The Sufis seek Fanah annihilation, the complete psychological extinguishing of the ego until nothing remains but God. Once the ego is annihilated, the mystic achieves baka, subsistence. The individual returns to the physical world, but no longer operates from selfish desire. They subsist in God, seen through his light, acting through his will, and serving humanity with absolute compassion. It is the realization of the hadith quudsi, where Allah says that I become the ear with which he hears, the eye with which he sees. This this psychological rebirth is the supreme zenith of the journey. And you know, shout out to the five percenters and father a law, right? They give you this truth right there on the front. Right. Straight up. Yep, definitely. Indeed. Any thoughts, Sheikh Bilal?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:19

Yeah, I know everybody uh might out of peak that, but there was a large similarity there between a lot of these uh schools of thought, just because on that last slide with the fanah and the matah, there was one word that was pointed out uh the ego. The ego is the first of the four devils that we're taught to chop the head off of. The ego is the first of the four enemies that we get taught to defeat in the jihad and Sufism. And it's taught by uh Shaykh Asunba. Of course, we have uh three additional enemies attached. You're carnal passions and desires, um, empty materialism and devilishment. But if you take care of that ego first, all the other three fall right on and off because the ego is what has the attachment to those other three in the first place. The ego doesn't have the ability to grab on to those things, then you're right on the path.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

That's definitely right. And you know, we see that demonstrated even in the language of the mystics.

Rumi, Poetry, And Symbolic Language

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Now, because the profound experiences of Fanan Baqad cannot be accurately described using the rigid vocabulary of mainstream jurisprudence, Sufis turned to the language of art. They became the greatest poets of the Islamic world, utilizing a rich symbolic vocabulary to express the inexpressible. Figures like Rumi, Hafiz, and Ibn Arabi composed verses speaking of taverns, wine, and intoxication, which to the literalist scholars sounded scandalous or forbidden. Now, however, in the esoteric lexicon of the inner temple, The tavern is the spiritual gathering place. The wine is the overwhelming love for God that destroys the rational mind's boundaries. The cupbearer is the master pouring out grace. And the beloved is God Himself. This poetry served as a revolutionary mechanism to bypass the rigid intellect and the strike directly at the emotional core sung in homes and concert halls across the globe, especially with Kawali and some of the artists like Nusrat Fateli Khan and other artists that are out there who kind of like demonstrate this uh divine love through the music. Even Hazrat Um Inayat Khan, right? With he was a musician.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:42

Yeah. Him. And um I would I wouldn't dare say that some of the things that Rumi did, right, still invoke that same feeling, even though some of them might have been, you know, as as sing Songi and whatnot. The the the the way he describes that attachment and that realization and being close to that divine oneness, that that also with the beloved. And he sees a glimpse of the beloved in this poem, and then poof, the beloved just goes away. But just that glimpse of the beloved by Rumi was enough to completely change him. And then turn back around to go back and be a completely different person than he was before.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:24

And you know, that's the beauty of all of it. And how I describe Father in Law being the first Sufi master in America and the five percenters being a Sufi order, and how look look at their parallel, right? Their connection with hip-hop in New York, and how through the music they were able to elevate themselves and their communities, just like how uh many Sufis use Kauali to elevate the community by expressing their love for each other, for God, for community, etc. So that parallel with the five percenters and then the hip-hop of New York is very, very similar. I think. So as we see the global spread of Sufism, we see that in the contemporary era, the dynamic between Sufism and mainstream Islam has evolved significantly as these traditions have interacted with the West.

Western Sufism And Authenticity Questions

SPEAKER_00 1:08:16

Mainstream Sunni Islam in the diaspora often focuses on maintaining identity, building masjids, and fighting Islamophobia. Sufism, however, has frequently transcended the boundaries of formal religion entirely, with poetry like Rumis appealing to a broad audience, seeking spiritual but not religious experiences. Now, this has led to the rise of a perennial or universalist Sufism, which operates independently of the Sharia framework. While Orthodox Sufis maintain that you cannot access the inner temple without passing through the outer temple of Islamic law, modern Western adaptations sometimes discard the outer temple entirely. This ongoing evolution highlights the extreme adaptability of the esoteric path while raising questions about authenticity and tradition. So you do have like some Sufi orders here in America that many would say are whitewashed, it's all love and light and universalist type, and they kind of remove the Islamic teachings, just like what they did with Rumi's poems when they translated them. So it's the thing is that you gotta make sure that if you're wanna if you want to deal with it correctly, you deal with it through a path which goes through all of the steps step by step. And of course, um you have love and respect for everyone in a universalist fashion, but without discounting the identity from where it came from.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:48

Where uh did uh Sheikh go? You there, Sheikh Bilal? Oh, maybe uh technical difficulties. He says he's he's having uh there's something going over there with the C.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:04

Yeah, the weather's been strange even here in Philadelphia. Like uh I I freezed for a second earlier because of the uh the way the weather has been. But yeah, uh what I recommend to the seekers is especially our black and brown brothers and sisters and you know, people like us, that when you're dealing with these Sufi orders in the West, make sure you're dealing with the one that is inclusive to you and is welcoming to you. A lot, a lot of these um, I guess, Sufi orders in the West have been kind of hijacked and whitewashed to a certain extent. So even with Rumi's poems, you gotta deal with not the Coleman Barks translation, but the translation of other sources which are giving true authenticity to Islam and not revising Rumi's works. So you gotta make sure you're dealing with the correct source at the end of the day that gives you your dignity and humanity. So as we move on with the presentation, it's it's about reconciling the

Reconciling The Paths And Final Thanks

SPEAKER_00 1:11:06

paths. As we conclude, it becomes evident that mainstream Sunni Islam and Sufism are not ultimately adversaries, but two essential hemispheres of a complete religious organism, right? You need the both left brain and right brain synchronized to become the complete human. If mainstream Sunni Islam is the anatomy of the faith, the structural integrity required to stand upright, Sufism is the breath and heartbeat that animates that structure. A body without a heartbeat is lifeless, a heartbeat without a body is formless. The search for the divine requires both the discipline of the outward path and the passion of the inward journey. For the sincere seeker, the law provides the anchor, ensuring that the mystic does not float away in delusion, while the mystic provides the wings, ensuring the jurist does not become chained to the earth by literalism. Together they represent the holistic pursuit of truth. So that's uh my presentation. And uh for the academic references, I recommend you check out the books The Revival of the Religious Sciences by Imam Al-Ghazali, Martin Ling's What is Sufism, and uh The Mystical Dimensions of Islam by Anne-Marie Schimmel. So uh just take a quick snapshot of this for you know those that are watching. This has the books listed, which can help you better understand all of this. And uh I dedicate uh today's presentation to Brother Ron Brown, uh NYP Talk Show, Sheikh Bilal. And uh yeah, let's continue this conversation conversation, inshallah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:46

Indeed, for sure, for sure. I just texted you both you brothers a little while ago. Um uh man, great presentation, man. Um this is uh the type of energy that we were looking for for this podcast. It's uh it's all about unifying and bring everyone bringing everyone together. Um, and I'm learning to be a bit more um patient with my brothers and sisters right now. Bring it alone, brother.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:17

You're not alone, man. You never think that you actually yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:21

Before I was I don't know if you ever watch me when I get when I get a little annoyed, but um I'm learning. Uh so man, great, great uh presentation. Thank you, brothers, for coming out this evening. Thanks to everyone on the chat. I really appreciate you. Uh, those who are in the chat, I appreciate you. Um, and we will be back tomorrow. Tomorrow we have uh oh, we have uh tomorrow we have uh Moriel Smith, uh African Americans, Moorish Americans, and then Thursday, Henry Mohammed from uh Moss 7C from the Nation of Islam out of Brooklyn. Um, again, thank you, brothers and sisters, for coming out this evening. I really appreciate you, and we are out of here. Hey