SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hello everyone. Welcome to the pew. We're here to talk with our church family about faith, community, and embodying the way of Jesus together. I'm your host, Liz Dial, and I'm here today with the Reverends Robert Mercer and Michael Bowman. Hey guys.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Hi Liz.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Thanks for coming back on the pod.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

I'm glad that you didn't quit your jobs after the last one.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

No, this was fun.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Good.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

So glad. Um, we'll we'll go ahead and dive in. Uh, this Easter season, we're heating the Great Commission um with our sermon series, The Church has left the building. Yep. Um, so we're here to talk today. Um, do some further discussions about what it means to put faith into action. Pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Um, so let me get out my handy dandy list. My questionnaire. Um, because I know the pe this is what the people want. SMR with the questionnaire. Um uh so first question. Uh, what does it mean to have a faith that exists beyond church walls? What does that faith look like? This is for either of you.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

Well go ahead. Uh uh You've already said it, Liz. Embodying the way of Jesus together. Uh I think that well, when we first started talking about that when our clergy team was it, it was year one, right? Uh talking about how we want people to really live how Jesus taught us to live. And uh there's not a you know, during this series I've trying to look at church life within the New Testament, and there's not a lot of it. Yeah. As far as what we think of as church life. Right. Yeah. And so you know, just all the time, everywhere you go. And that's tough because we compartmentalize so good. We're so good at that. Right. You know, that this, this, this. Time to go to church. This is my church life.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

This is my real life. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

And I get that.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Yeah, I mean, the only the first thing that comes to mind for me is just it looks like the majority of your life. Uh, church for most of us happens on an hour on a Sunday morning, and there you go. So faith is the rest of what you're doing. I mean, it is that, but it's also the majority of everything else that you're doing. So it looks like how you're living, but maybe we'll get into this a little bit more. Maybe a little more bent toward following Jesus in those things. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Um, what do y'all think are some of the challenges uh facing people that might struggle with taking their faith outside of the church building?

SPEAKER_03 2:48

You want to take it?

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Yeah. Uh so Maggie made fun of me last time I was on the pew for all the quotes, but uh, we'll start with one. Listen, people are here for the quotes. Yeah, right. And it's a it's another devil's. Liz's dad, uh, this one's for you. Shout out, Jack Dile. All right, Jack. Uh so Dell. He's gonna love that.

SPEAKER_04 3:11

He's gonna absolutely love that.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Dallas Millard once wrote in a preface to one of his books, he said, the greatest issue facing our world today is whether or not those who by basically like social status, cultural status by name, uh, call themselves Christians. He says the greatest issue facing our world today is whether or not they would become students, disciples, apprentices of Jesus, learning to live the reality of the kingdom of the heavens into every corner of human existence. So when you ask about the greatest issue or what might be facing us, and the greatest issue facing us in this world and living our faith in kind of the everyday life, I think it's oh, I'm gonna say it this way it's Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Hey, that's crazy. I know that's crazy for you to be.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Following Jesus is really hard. And I think we like the label. I think we like having, you know, Christian on the shirt, or, and this is great, please keep becoming members of our church. We love that. Uh, but we like having our name on the roster, but the actual following Jesus is the difficult part. Now we can say it's because the world out there is hard, or and that's not wrong. Uh, because of the struggles we might encounter on a daily basis, totally. But uh the first thing that comes to mind for me is the hardest part is Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Yeah, making that daily, hourly, minutely choice to embody Jesus instead of whatever else you were gonna do.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, here's a quote for you. Oh, let's go, Jack.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Are you listening? Get into it.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

I don't know if it's it's a hundred percent Ray Boltz. Do you remember him? Old Christian singer, and he kind of struggled with the establishment of that industry and kind of did his own things. Uh he's accredited for saying the worst part of living for Jesus is that it's every single day.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

You know, they're like, bro, I want to take a nap.

SPEAKER_04 5:18

I'm tired.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Yeah, yeah, and we get that, right? Because when we're in the parking lot, we're really polite and we let people out, yeah, but we get to Target 20 minutes later and we're like, no, that's my spot. Yeah. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

You know?

SPEAKER_02 5:34

That's a great point.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

And it's like, would Jesus give up the parking lot?

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Yeah. Well, and that's not to say, right, and I don't we're being tongue-in-cheek. I I actually don't think following Jesus is all as difficult as we like to think it is, because I think he even in his invitation says, Come to me and learn how to live freely and gently. That seems he says, My burden is easy. Yeah. You know, my my yoke, my my yoke is easy, my burden is light. Uh it's just that it's not how we would normally do things. Or at least it's not how I would normally do things. Yeah. I like being right. I like having the last word. I like being in charge of my life. And yet Jesus will say things to people like Peter, and I think to us too. Hey, you know, sometimes you're gonna follow me into places you'd rather not go. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Well, and it's also a cultural thing. I feel like I think we've talked in every episode of this podcast this year, we've talked about the cultural significance of like the challenges facing people of faith. Um, and how American culture is so individualized and so like, well, you I have to do it my way. Yeah. Um, and that's a little bit antithetical to uh the teachings of of Christ.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

At the same time, though, um their culture, even though it was different, they had lots of problems following in this way. I mean, Paul, you know, I I said in one of our sermons during the series that if you're getting letter a letter from Paul, it is not a great job, church.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

I mean, it's He's not sending out congratulations.

SPEAKER_03 7:08

Yeah, you're you're starting to live more like the culture than you are like Jesus wants you to live. So in that way, it's the same. But yeah, it's different, especially that individualistic part. Because when you read scripture, it is community. I mean, yeah, it's living life together, which is a word we like to say a lot.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

That's why. That's exactly why. It gets me reminded, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

Thinking about Paul's letters like that, he always starts with like grace and peace, and then he hits them with a hair. Like, oh, this is nice. Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Uh, he went to leadership training and learned the compliment sandwich. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

He's like, okay, grace and peace, also, and then be like, but keep up the bigger. But I love you. All right, we're praying for it.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

See ya. You've gotta stop drinking all the wine before all the guests get in. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Yeah. But yeah, that's that's really interesting um to talk about those challenges. Um, what does uh Jesus slash the Bible say about living out one's faith?

SPEAKER_04 8:14

A few things.

SPEAKER_03 8:16

Yeah, you know, um so sorry. You know, uh uh I think it was about maybe over a year ago, uh maybe longer uh in Modern we did a a series called As You Go. And and we we hooked on to this with the Great Commission, Go and Make Disciples. There's a real good argument you can make that what Jesus was saying is as you live your life, you know, make disciples. As you live your life, do what I've taught you to do. And and so I think I think that to me says a lot. You don't get a whole lot of um, hey, gather together in a church building. You get some gathering together in homes and with loved ones, but having meals together. Having meals together, yeah, yeah, and all that's important. And and I want to say clearly, there's nothing wrong with gathering together in the building, but yeah, it's not the way it's always been.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Yeah. I mean, Jesus says, Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. I uh and he even says like this is the law and the prophets. So when you're asking about like what does the Bible say, well, Jesus says, This is it. Law and the prophets being like all the scriptures they had at that time. Um, if I could summarize it in one word or a sentence, just love God and love your neighbor. And that word in the Greek as we have it translated, it's just anyone next to you, all people, love them uh as you love yourself. And so we're talking about this church outside the building. I love the as you go thing because we have it in our Bibles mainly translated as just go, but the word really means as you go. So as you go about your life, as you go about your way of doing things and being in this world, I think Jesus would say, just love God and love other people in the way that you love yourself. And I wonder, I really do wonder, if we did that, what would this world look like today?

SPEAKER_04 10:26

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

I mean, it's pretty simple.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Yeah, I was about to say there's a beautiful simplicity in that. Yeah. That like obviously has nuance and gray areas, but but but yeah, it is a beautiful simplicity and just like there's two things you gotta do.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

Yeah. I I like to say a lot, it's it's really simple, but but it's not very easy. Right. Yeah, yeah, simple does not equal easy.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 10:50

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, gosh, uh even if just uh our people did that, not all Christians, if just Asbury's decided, you know what, as we go, we're gonna live like Jesus. What a difference that would make in our community and around the world too, because we do go out of the country here at Asbury, you know, that it would be just so significant.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Right. Yeah, and then just to kind of add to that, I guess, and further the conversation, you know, Jesus does say in the Sermon on the Mount, getting to the point that you're striking there, Robert, like you are the salt of the earth, you are the light of the world, which means you don't hide that thing under a bushel, as we like to sing in our children's songs, but you let it shine. And the way in which you live is that shining. And so the way that you laugh with people, care for people, the way that you bring brownies over to the new neighbor in your neighborhood or whatever, it's very that's the simple bit. That actually I think is the easy part. Now it gets into things like when you have disagreements or when there's suffering or when there's pain of some kind or strife between you and another person, but we're still called to come back to that loving piece. And I think if both sides are doing it, it might actually be a little more simple than we've made it. Yeah, yeah, I agree. And we'll make a difference. Light in a dark room always makes a difference. Always.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

So true.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Thank you. I know pretty profound. That wasn't a quote, but you can't.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Yeah, you can hear it uh hear it now, folks. Michael Bowman said, if you turn on a light in a dark room, you're gonna see stuff.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Write that down. Write that down.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Oh, you're gonna be seeing stuff. Um, I think we've we've touched on on this, but I'm curious for more of a um an exploration answer of uh is the church a place, an institution, or a people? Or is it all three?

SPEAKER_04 12:49

I was gonna say it's it's all three. Today, it's all three.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

Yeah, I always hesitate to say it's all three, but I know it's all three. But I like to think of you know, uh I feel like we have gotten it wrong when we call it church. Uh and correct me if I'm wrong, you you you're more versed in Greek than I am. But is it a more accurate translation assembly or gathering?

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah, ecclesia, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

Yeah, and so I think church uh sometimes might be an unfortunate kind of translation because it does feel like a place uh rather than a people. And I like to think of it as a people. But there are also the institutional part of it, um, and there's good and bad with that. Uh institutions are getting hit really hard, and they should. And we should learn from that and we should change it. But it's also incredibly powerful, you know, because when a disaster hits, the United Methodist is just our denomination. We're on the ground, yeah. Right then, and usually on the ground, one of the last ones to leave, and that couldn't be done without all the churches all over the right, exactly, exactly. Yeah, and the organization of that, right? Totally. The mobilization, the training, the helping. That's fantastic. Um, so in a sense, that is part of it as well, but really it's people, you know.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

I mean, it's in the title of our series, The Church has left the building. We're not talking about a building leaving a building. We're talking about human beings walking out of this building and going into the world and being church, being uh the body of Christ, if you will. And that's some scriptural language, but just being who uh we are trying to be, of people who are embodying the way of Jesus together. And that can't, for it to make any difference at all in our lives or in the lives of our community, in the life of this world, that can't just exist here. Um if it does, then we could probably just turn the lights off.

SPEAKER_03 15:05

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

This building could be used for a lot of other things, but thankfully I think Asbury and this campus is used for ways of being the church, and yet at the same time, that's why we focus so much on giving with MIA or partnering with local uh ministries and uh missions in town, partnering with folks in Costa Rica and around the world, because we believe it is actually supposed to exist outside of these walls.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Yeah. Yeah, Asperger does a great job with that, especially with that MIA piece. You know, and and so I I think though, sometimes that can make us feel like, yeah, well, I've doing my part. My my my money's helping fund these kinds of things, but also how you're living your life with your family, with your neighbors, that's all a part of it too.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Yeah, and so that's why I think it is all three. The word as we use it today, it is all three. But uh I think what we're trying to help people see is that it means a little bit more than just a building or an institution. It really is you. And so, you know, I I often wonder do you know the people's name uh names on the pew that you're sitting in on Sunday? If you don't, maybe ask. That's part of being the church. But then the same is true when you go home. Do you even know your neighbors' names? Truly. How long have you been living in that house? Being the church, being someone who embodies the way of Jesus together, some of that challenge is this is the community you are in. Know those people, uh, be a light in that community. Um, be the church as you go.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

Yeah, there's a a book called The Art of Neighboring. Uh, and and in it uh he makes the argument of spend an hour in your front yard, you know, one weekend, just just an hour, just stay, and you'll be surprised how many people you will meet just by because you know, at least my neighborhood, the decks are on the back. Right. The front porch is gone. Yeah. Um and so it used to be you'd sit on your front porch and wave at everybody. Wave at the neighbors, yeah. And talk. But now he said, spend an hour in your front yard and you'll meet some people. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Yeah, I I just recently moved to like an actual neighborhood. Um, I've been in, you know, apartment buildings where I've known my you know neighbors, but this is the first time where I have a front porch.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

And and it's great.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Um But yeah, it's like I think the instinct is to kind of just like stay in the house and state of myself, but but it's it's really wonderful just being outside and seeing people walk by. And it's a very, it's very walking neighborhood. Everybody's walking their dogs, everybody's pushing strollers. It's great. It's great.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Front porch is a was a bucket list on my or a must-have on my house list. And the house we've been in, I guess now 20 years. It's the only thing on the list it doesn't have. They just don't make them the same anymore. They just don't make them like they used to.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

I know my house is very old, so it still has a front porch. Still has that front porch. But uh, but yeah, I love it. I love my neighborhood and I love getting to know my neighbors and shout out Liz's neighborhood. Shout out Liz's neighborhood. Um, I was about to say what neighborhood it was, but I probably shouldn't do that on the internet. Uh it's probably smart. Yeah. You know, I I think mostly just as we are gonna watch this, but you know, you never know.

SPEAKER_03 18:40

You might miss out on like brownies or cake and delivered to your house.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

That's so true.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

That is so true.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

If you want to know where Liz lives, just email her.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Just email me. I'll give you my address. Um, you know, it's so funny you mentioned. And by me saying this, I'm gonna start getting them. Um, but when I started here, you know, Amy uh when when each of us started this job, uh, she brought us on Asbery Now and asked us what our favorite snack was. Um and Dash Dash said sour skittles and Mountain Dew, and then was just showered with sour skittles and Mountain Dew. You know what I said my favorite snack was?

SPEAKER_02 19:25

I do.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Potatoes. Have I gotten one potato?

SPEAKER_02 19:29

As we're talking about being the church. Bring this, bring Liz some potatoes.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

I'm deeply kidding. Um, but that was so funny. I was like, oh yeah, maybe I should have asked, maybe I should have said like a candy, because that's like easy to give someone. Um anyway, I'm awaiting potatoes in my mailbox.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

She's receiving.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

I'm like, okay, guys, too many potatoes.

SPEAKER_03 19:57

There's only so many things you can do with these.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Uh anyway, okay. So this is our last question. Um is there a right oh, sorry. Uh is there a right way to live out faith, or can it look a lot like what our daily lives look like already?

SPEAKER_03 20:18

Uh yes and no, maybe. You know, yeah, there's a right way, I think, to do things. Don't be weird. No, please don't be weird. Please don't be weird. You can be really over the top, you know. Uh but but no, in the sense of we we all have our own gifts, our own strengths, uh, our own way of living, and absolutely, yes, within our daily life that that's where it happens. You know, m my wife Tracy, uh she probably is able to be the church outside the building more than I am as a pastor because of what she does and the people she meets. Right. And and there is so much opportunity to be the church in normal, caring ways. You know, well, that's how the church became a building, right? Because uh correct my history, uh uh we started having buildings more when Christianity became the the official religion of Rome, right? Yeah. And and so before that, the reason why it became so popular is people were living it out, not preaching it, but caring for the orphans, caring for the people who are sick, caring for the people that nobody else would care for, and it got the attention of the people. Right. So, anyway, I'll stop with that.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

No, I think that's great. I the I guess my answer is more of a question when you think about a right way of living out the faith or not, uh, does it does it look like the fruit of the spirit? Is that popping up in your life? Are those things showing up in your midst, around you, through you? How are you doing on the whole love thing? Uh joy, you know, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithful. I mean, we can go through the list. There's nine, there's nine, right? So are those nine things popping up? And if not, why?

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Um, so it's not necessarily like if you're not I I don't exhibit all nine on a daily basis. Hopefully I get one. But you know, is our reading of scripture, is our practice of this faith thing, is your going to church making a difference? And the way you know is if you're becoming more loving, more joyful, more peaceful, more patient with people, more kind, more gentle, uh faithful, self-controlled, like I think that is a great little litmus test uh for embodying the way of Jesus together. Is your community looking like that? And if our church, be it our institution, our body, Asbury United Methodist Church, whatever you want to call it, are gathering, if it's not looking like that, why not? Um and if those things are popping up, I think you probably are to kind of frame the question and answer this way, you probably are doing it right. Um now you might not have memorized 300 Bible verses, but you were sure really kind today. And I think that matters. Yeah. I think that really matters.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Yeah. Was it in Matthew when Jesus said you can know a false teacher by their fruits? Yeah. You can know if it's of God by love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness. Now that's Paul's interpretation of that.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

But I don't think he's far off.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

Well, and I think Paul is getting that from John 15 with the abide in me as I abide in you. And Jesus says, if you love one another uh as I have loved you, by laying down your life uh for your friends, then you will be a person who produces not well bears fruit. And he says that's a fruit that will last. And I think Paul's just picking up on that language and being like, well, the fruit that lasts are these things.

SPEAKER_03 24:13

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

And if those things are budding up in your life and around you, well, I think the kingdom of God might just be in your midst.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

And if you want to know for sure, kind of look at those verses before the fruit of the spirits there. Yeah, yeah. It gives a pretty good outline of what the other side looks like.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

What the other side looks like. Yeah. Greed and yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:33

Looks a lot, looks pretty familiar to our culture in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

Yeah, yeah. That's a good question, though.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Well, uh, and that's all I had. Um, but yeah, thank you guys so much for for this discussion. And um That's it, just get out. Just get out! What are you doing here? Get out! Turn around.

SPEAKER_03 24:54

Yeah, why are we in a pew today talking about this?

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Okay, right. And this is on the communications team. This is such a good question because we should be we should be outside.

SPEAKER_03 25:05

Outside.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Uh well that's uh really nice out. That's an oversight on our part. Uh apologies to everyone. Sorry. We should have been outside. Um, but it's like a little bit hot. And that's the challenge we're facing. Um that's the challenge we're facing to embodying the way of Jesus, is sometimes it's a little bit hot.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

Just a little bit hot outside. Church has left their building, but it's hot.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

But it's hot. Um we've come back. Full circle. Um well, thank you guys so much. Um this has been wonderful. Uh I love having the discussions. Um it's so fun. So fun. It's so fun. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of the Pew. Be sure to stay tuned for more discussions and in-depth analysis of our sermon series. Um, and subscribe where you get your podcast. Uh, and on YouTube, you can watch us like you're doing now if you're looking into my eyes right now. Um, okay, bye.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

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SPEAKER_01 26:11

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SPEAKER_02 26:13

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