The Mystic Tye
The Mystic Tye is a podcast for Freemasons
I intend to curate a environment where brethren and other aspirants can discuss ideas in a civil and productive way. We will not be afraid to tackle controversial or difficult topics, but all discussions will be done in a respectful and understanding manner. With the forbearance exemplified by our ancient brethren we will labour in the quarry together to prepare the stones of our thoughts and actions. All these prepared for the temple not made with hands.
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The Mystic Tye
Constructing Yourself with "The Tarot Architect" by Br. Lon Milo DuQuette
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The Tarot Architect w/Br. Lon Milo DuQuette
You can find us online at mystictye.com Support us on Patreon Email me feedback, guest suggestions and any other questions at troy@mystictye.com
Br. Lon Milo DuQuette is an internationally recognized authority on Tarot, Qabalah, and Ceremonial Magick, and has written extensively about the life and works of the controversial English magician, Aleister Crowley. He has written more than 20 books, is an award winning singer/songwriter and recording artist, and somebody I am proud to call my good friend. Please welcome Lon Milo DuQuette.
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We are looking to create a directory of Freemasonic events and publications. If you are aware of something coming up please let me know by email. In the meantime check out the Masonic Conferences website.
Upcoming Events
Grand Masonic Day 2026 Last chance! Grand Masonic Day 2026 will be held at 10am on April 18th at Vancouver Masonic Center at 7th and Granville. Our keynote speaker will be historian, scholar and author Josef Wages, with Special Guest Speaker Arturo De Hoyos. Tickets available on Eventbrite.
Memory Palaces Everywhere with Br. Troy Spreeuw I, Br. Troy Spreeuw will be speaking at Capilano Lodge #164 on Wednesday April 22nd. I will be presenting my talk "Memory Palaces Everywhere" about emblematic imagery and Western Esotericism. Lodge Tyles at 7:30 pm at the Vancouver Masonic Centre. This same talk will also be presented on Wednesday May 13th at Star of the West Lodge #29 in Nakusp. To see other dates for my presentations, check out my updates on The Mystic Tye Patreon.
Esotericism in Freemasonry Conference The Esotericism in Freemasonry Conference will be held on Saturday September 19th. Our keynote speaker will be Lon Milo DuQuette, author of The Tarot Architect. Get your tickets in advance by RSVP to esotericmasonry@gmail.com.
For other events check out our calendar at mystictye.com and don't forget to sign up for our newsletter while you are there.
Credits Graphics and web hosting by Art Szabo Creative. A special thanks to Organist for our theme music.
Happy to meet, sorry to part, happy to meet again.
Welcome to Mystic Tie. The podcast for Freemasons. I am your host, Troy's crew. You can find us online at Mystikttie.com. Email me feedback, guest suggestions, and any other questions at Troy at Mystiktie.com. Brother Lon Milo Dutch is an internationally recognized authority on tarot, Kabbalah, and ceremonial magic. He has written extensively about the life and work of the controversial English magician Crowley. He has written more than 20 books, is an award-winning singer-songwriter and recording artist, and somebody I am proud to call my good friend. Please welcome Lon Milo Duquette. Good evening, Lon Milo Duquette. Welcome to the Mystic Tie Podcast.
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much, Troy.
SPEAKER_01Now, you and I have known each other a long time. Uh it's gonna be it's 25 years, I think. Oh, geez. Since we met in uh in Seattle. Uh and uh I've enjoyed your work very much. We've worked together a lot. I've done events with you for years, and it's such a joy to have you here today. Uh you've released recently a book called The Tarot Architect. Can you can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and the new book?
SPEAKER_02Um well the tarot architect um is uh well it's sort of a Kabbalah-based uh Kabbalah-based um book because uh uh tarot is structured along just basic cabalistic lines. And uh um it uh uh the book is really a program, okay, of of uh uh uh encouraging you to make your own tarot deck or or at least uh uh take part in creating uh a tarot deck in a very specific way. Um you know, in uh in you know early lectures in in the craft uh w we're uh uh uh uh pointed to uh pointed to is the right thing. We hear about a point and a line and a line to a superfice and a superfice to a to a solid. And and um uh our attention is is drawn to numbers. Um the five and seven and twelve and and um all of these are very fundamental numbers just to existence itself, you know, from a point to a line to a superfice to a solid, uh literally d d defines the dimension that we're in. Well tarot has that that that same uh connection, that same harmony of of of numbers, just in its basic construction. And uh in the same way that uh the legendary King Solomon's temple was g uh constructed in s such a way, um at least figuratively speaking, uh to be a perfect miniature working model of the cosmos. Okay. Uh because if you if you made a perfectly a perfect miniature working model of the cosmos, it would vibrate with the big vibration of of the god of the universe, you know? And uh like a tuning fork. King Solomon's Temple was like a little tuning fork uh that's that was uh constructed uh to be the perfect replica of the great tuning fork of existence itself. Okay, and so it would vibrate in sympathy with that, the same way that that tarot is, and I call it the tarot architect, uh uh with that in mind, if you learned the the the basic uh structure of the of the tarot and were familiar enough with it to actually uh uh make and color your own tarot deck, yeah, in a sense it'd be like installing that program within yourself to kind of tune up your little tuning fork to the great tuning fork of the great architect of the universe. Does that make any sense?
SPEAKER_01No, that's um that's perfectly sensible. I mean, I've been a student of the tarot for as long as we've known each other, 25 years, maybe a little longer. Um, and I came to tarot through Kabbalah. I came to Kabbalah largely through my occult and esoteric studies, but I mean, your your book, The Chicken Kabbalah, I'm often saying it's my favorite book on the Kabbalah, and I've read quite a few, including some of the foundational texts. And uh I often tell the story the first time I ever did a tarot reading was for a Wiccan priest. It was a guy who used to do it for a living. And I was teaching a tarot class at the time using your methods, and uh this guy, nobody wanted to partner with him and read his tarot, of course. So the teacher, me, has to partner with the Wiccan priest, and everybody else paired up and did a reading. So the first time I ever did a reading was for this guy. And he's like, that's the best reading I've ever had. And I'm like, uh, Dennis, this is the first reading I've ever done. Right. It's I study tarot not as a method of of of cardomancy, right? I I I I was studying the tarot as sort of this emblematic practice that uh now I discover is all over Freemasonry as well. So I thank you for that. So I'm quite familiar with your approach to tarot. Uh I just think it's it's it's one of these things where you know students, students that want to learn the tarot, and it's quite popular in Freemasonry right now to talk about tarot. You should start at Kabbalah because if you if you if you master the rudiments of the tree of life and and and how they're arrived at those derivations, the the the cards make they just kind of unfold that's so much easier than trying to memorize anything time 78. You know what I mean? Yeah, there you go. There's the square encompasses.
SPEAKER_02The four of wands, which the technical name is perfected work. Okay. Interesting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And uh this is from the that's your tarot of ceremonial magic. Right. Which is back in print, by the way. Yes. I will make sure to link to it. Or maybe I'll get some copies here to have up my book table.
SPEAKER_02But the um the um the book has the entire uncolored version of uh all 78 cards of the the tarot of ceremonial magic, right plus all of the coloring instructions. And um uh but it's instead of creating your deck just going from the very beginning to the end, I do it like from a line from a point to a line to a superfish, okay. Uh you create the you create your tarot deck in the same way that creation unfolded, I guess is is the easiest way for me to say it.
SPEAKER_00And while you're doing that, yeah, you're learning a lot about the cube of space and how it unfolds, I mean it. Right.
SPEAKER_02And um and and I you know, I try to make it fun and I try to make it I try to make it uh uh very, very easy and not non-threatening and um and in places a little goofy.
SPEAKER_01Uh as you are known to do in your take your work seriously, but don't take yourself too seriously. Yes, that's right.
SPEAKER_02So anyway, it's been it's uh uh been very uh very popular, and uh I've just recently done a three-day, three all-day uh workshop in Joshua Tree, California, uh on the tarot architect, uh complete with uh uh oh, it was just beautiful. It was in a building, um uh a beautiful uh Lloyd Wright uh uh facility there in Joshua Tree. Cool. And uh we had other things going on in the in the evenings. Uh there were uh uh local astronomers came and uh of course in Joshua Tree is one of the best stargazing places in the in the universe. Yeah, wow. And um it was just it was just absolutely wonderful. And being in the desert is uh it's a mystical experience all by itself. You don't have to try you don't have to try to be mystical uh in Joshua Tree. The the the desert just takes over. And uh uh it was very wonderful. Uh two um two ladies drove their motorcycles all the way from North Carolina to uh and back uh for the event.
SPEAKER_00To do magic in the wilderness with Blonde Duquette.
SPEAKER_01Wow. That's a that's amazing. If if you haven't had the opportunity to get out into the wilderness and and and do some magic, I would highly recommend it.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah. It's a whole different thing.
SPEAKER_01There's um there's a lady here that I know that runs um Enochian and practical uh uh Solomonic magic retreats uh in the wilds of British Columbia. And that's uh that's an experience to have, I tell you. Um so I I I don't want to go backwards, but it it occurs to me that that are you are you encouraging people to like actual actually color in the book? Yes. I've got a couple of tarot coloring books around here somewhere.
SPEAKER_02Well, the uh uh each page, okay, is uh Yeah, yeah, I see that whole thing. Okay. But I've also uh uh got links to my website, which is lawnmylittlequet.net. Um and you can download the p PDFs of all the cards and you can put them out on your own card stock. Nice, yeah, and uh and do it that way. And also on the website uh uh there is a f a full animation of you um uh sitting in the middle of the cube of space, uh projecting the the card images on all of the all the sides and the edges and stuff of the cube of space.
SPEAKER_01Like we do in your in the classes that we've done.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You assemble the cube, you cut it out of a piece of paper, and then assemble it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's cool. So that's so cool. Um did you did you have any Freemasons at that Joshua Tree retreat?
SPEAKER_02Yes, had a ton of Freemasons at the Joshua uh retreat. And um, and several of them gee, where is it?
SPEAKER_00Oh, did you get some pins? Oh pins and some and some challenge coins?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this this one is from um uh Windsor, Colorado.
SPEAKER_00Nice. But let's see if he can challenge coin, nice.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But what's really nice about it because he was a real chicken cabbala fan. Oh yeah. Okay, look at the back of it.
SPEAKER_01Oh, look. And he's got a chicken on the back. Yeah, that's so cute, Lon.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's um that's really great.
SPEAKER_02Oh, and then there's uh and uh uh uh there were Freemasons, but there were also um um uh two of them were D Malays. Okay. Oh nice I have uh soft spot in my heart because I was a D Malay uh charter member of Columbus chapter of D Malay in Columbus, Nebraska.
SPEAKER_01Now okay, let's talk about that now. Okay. Um we can come back to the book. Um I've got all your books here. I've got that book here, but I haven't cracked it open yet. I think I've lent it out three times since I got it.
SPEAKER_02Well, get just let them keep it and buy another one. Well, that's that's that that does happen to me a lot. You don't have to read that one either. Just keep buying them.
SPEAKER_01Buy another one. You you don't know how many times I used that joke and uh was on the just interviewed a guy from For Turtle Ties the other day, and I told him that joke. I'm like, you don't have to read these books. Please buy them. And he he thought that was hilarious, and he's gonna use it at every opportunity he gets. I gave you credit. I said, That's not me, that's Lawn Duquette. But you haven't signed my copy yet. So once you sign it, then it goes in the special bookcase where books don't get lented out anymore. With all it's with all with all my original equinoxes and stuff that are valuable. Once you've defaced them, you see, then they become more valuable.
SPEAKER_02Well, you should hang on to the rare unsigned editions, yes.
SPEAKER_01So uh you were a D Molet, huh? Yes. How did you how did you end up joining the craft? Because I know you didn't graduate from D Molet and join right away. No. You had a more securitous route with your SOTR career uh back and then back into Freemasonry. You want to talk about that a bit? Yeah. We've talked about it a lot, but you haven't talked about it over a year.
SPEAKER_02Well, just uh uh like like many brothers, um uh my my father was a Mason, okay, and um uh he wasn't uh particularly a religious man, okay, but he was he was uh a very moral and uh very noble character. So he's one of the most noble characters I've ever met. And um I just respected him as a as a human being, and he s always spoke highly of the of the Masons. He was very proud to be a Mason. Um he he sort of uh uh tantalized me with with uh uh all his secret titles and stuff. He was Scottish right Mason. And uh uh he said uh you know I'd find out when I grew up. You know, it was just it was just it was so cool. And uh but uh uh he died uh like when he was like 61 or and uh uh he never saw me uh become a Mason. Um yeah, but I was a D Malay and I enjoyed uh you know I didn't enjoy all of the the the talk, the lectures and and things. It w it was more subjective, okay. I loved the lodge room. If this makes sense to you. Oh, sure. I love the lodge room. Oh, and of course I love dressing up and strutting around and I love the D Malay story, okay?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh that that was just so cool. And um uh but uh I would hang out after after uh chapter meetings, I'd hang out in the lodge room. And I remember uh uh sitting alone. You know how lodge rooms uh uh old ones, they sm they still smell like stale cigars. Yep. Yeah. And uh so I you know I I I always think that well, the egregore must smell like stale cigars.
SPEAKER_01That's what Masonic egregore smells like. Chairs with a hundred-year-old farts in them.
SPEAKER_02And um but anyway, I I would sit in the in the the junior warden's chair. Um and um um there was he had a podium there, and I was all alone in that that sort of uh in um indirect lighting. Yeah. And it was uh the building was a hundred years old even then. Um you know, it was one of the first buildings in town, you know. Right. And um I I was feeling the cool of the um the marble uh top, and I uh pushed it just sort of accidentally, and it swiveled. Oh and it swiveled, and I looked inside and there was a secret compartment, and in it was the was the blue monitorial book, you know. Wow, no uh uh no title on it, no anything on it, but all that code.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah, yeah. And was it was it uh was it uh uh uh like a cipher dot? Yeah, yeah. Letter, letter dot, letter dot, letter dot.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I thought that was just the coolest, coolest thing. And then dad cooley, uh uh the you know, the Masonic sponsor guy stuck his head in the door and said, Lonnie, get out of there. And I quickly, you know, he uh put the put the book back and everything else. And it was it was very mystical. And I I felt uh I felt very spiritual, I guess is the only word I can say. Uh I felt the same about uh our old Methodist church building. I didn't like the doctrine. I didn't like I hated Sunday school, but I love that church. Okay. Um and I would volunteer to come in on Saturdays just so I could be alone in the church and fold the the church bulletins. So it was just like, you know, I'm not crazy about the church, but I think I really love God. And uh uh but anyway, I got into uh uh esoteric esoteric things. Uh I joined the Amorc, A M R C because my brother said they're sort of like mystical, mystical Masons, you know, it's uh it's a fraternity kind of kind of thing. Only they only they also have women. I said, whoa, whoa, that sounds interesting. And um so the the Rosicrucians sort sort of got me introduced to sort of the hermetic format uh format thing. It wasn't masonry and um but it was uh a kind of a form of uh kind of very diluted occultism, you know?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And um and that got me uh interested in more serious things like the Kabbalah, and the Kabbalah got me interested in uh the works of Alistair Crowley. And Alistair Crowley uh once I got over the uh the once I stopped being Freaked out by uh by his reputation and the occult diabolism of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And this would have been 1960.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, this would uh I think the occult revival of the sixties, anyway. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And um so by uh by the uh mid-70s, uh I had uh actually met people that lived and studied with Crowley and uh old timers and stuff, and they disabused me of a lot of things, you know. They didn't disabuse me of everything, but they disabused me that now he didn't eat babies or anything like that. And uh as a matter of fact, he's those are such good stories, though. Oh God, yeah. And uh but anyway, so I got got interested in that. And it was I was uh I became sort of an OTO Lodge member, uh Lodge Master, and uh things I so I was very involved in just pretty hardcore occultism and and magic. And um so uh I was teaching a Monday night magic class at our our home in Costa Mesa, which uh we we still do, um and uh one of the the class members was uh uh in line to be uh master of uh of all things, my dad's old lodge in Long Beach. He was going to be worshipful master the next year, and he said, uh uh he just said it's time for you to join the Masons. Yeah. And uh I said, well, okay. And um uh so I um I went through now in California, uh unless you're gonna be an officer, uh you do kind of everything in a short form uh the work, okay. But I wanted to be an officer, okay? And uh so I did the the long-form memory work on on um all three degrees. And uh as soon as I was raised, um uh I was appointed chaplain. And uh so I served a couple of years as chaplain, a couple years as chapter.
SPEAKER_01Was that in recognition of your of your spiritual attainment?
SPEAKER_02Well yeah. Well, not my spiritual attainment, but my my clergy status. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Your your interest, your interest in in esotericism and and and serving serving as a as a c as a cler as a Gnostic clergy, I suppose. Yeah. Right. And so I already nice of them to recognize that.
SPEAKER_02It was. And um uh you know, my the average member, I think, when I joined was like 72 years old. Okay. But it was a big lodge. I think there was twelve hundred members, and uh uh uh uh several grandmasters of of uh California uh came from our lodges. So it's a very very uh uh it's a good lodge.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's it's established, still established, still run.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, oh yeah. And uh so I really enjoyed that. I uh qualified for uh uh senior senior deacon, which it was one of my greatest uh thrills, because uh uh uh at least in in California, um uh free and accepted, um that's where you that's where you get the staircase lecture. Right. And uh I my biggest thrill Masonic thrills and chills was uh was memorizing and and running candidates uh fellow crafts candidates through so I could give them the staircase lecture, because that's where from a point to a line to a superfice of the the the geometry and the the uh the orders of architecture and everything gets instructed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But as chaplain, uh well well, you know how how it goes when you're junior deacon, your job all year is to qualify for senior deacon.
SPEAKER_01And learn you'll earn the endard apprentice degree, right? Because you're you're marching candidates around, and then as senior deacon, you'll earn the fellow craft and master mason degree because you're leading those candidates around.
SPEAKER_02But uh as chaplain, uh I did all the charges. We gave all the degree charges uh as chaplain, and I loved that because that's the okay, you guys, you've just been initiated. Here's the shit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, here's 25 minutes from from memory.
SPEAKER_02And uh uh do you know what my trick was for memory? Speaking of speaking of cigars. You know, the language is very archaic.
SPEAKER_01Yes, that's why it sticks so well.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01It feels it feels it feels like uh like magical language, other language.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And uh it's our it's our own sort of funky way of doing it in Latin. Yeah. And um uh so in order to trick myself, you you you know, I studied acting with Lee Strasberg.
SPEAKER_01Um I don't know that you ever told me that.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I yes, I attended the uh Strasbourg was still alive, still did the Monday uh seminars at the Lee Strasbourg uh film uh and theater institute in LA, Hollywood. Anyway, um it's method acting. Okay, he's the big method acting Stanislowski method. Um so I tricked myself because I d I don't really have a great memory. I tricked myself into pretending I had a cigar between my fingers, and I spoke with a real thick southern accent. So so like affected? Yes, yeah. And and be because the language is so archaic, it's meant it's yeah, it would sound that way. Yeah, yeah. You're you're meant to to take your time with every word, unsullied. I love that word, unsullied. Okay. Uh to take your time and and just uh uh say every word with honey sweet southern accent, you know. And um and it worked. And it was really when I gave when I gave back uh the the lecture at proficiency, it was really hard for me not to go to your superiors in condensation, you know, condensation, you know. And uh but anyway, I so I really, really enjoyed it. And then the um uh after a few and then I did Scottish Right, uh uh and then again I was lucky with Scottish Right because uh Long Beach at the time uh did all the degrees.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Uh you do the landmark degrees first, and then you go back every Friday for a year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and uh uh get the fill-ins that they now it's popular to do these uh well, like they do in Guthrie, where they do a reunion where they they confer all the degrees. Yes. Yes, all 29 in in one go. I've never gone. Ken Lane and Brett Wolf have been at me for years and years to go.
SPEAKER_02Just go to enjoy Guthrie.
SPEAKER_01Uh I I need to go, and I just couldn't bring myself this year.
SPEAKER_02Just too much going on. I would go to Guthrie every summer for a few summers in a row uh for uh for an esoteric thing. Um which is wonderful because it's it's like a giant motel. It's a mason motel, you know. Lovely. Well, this is more like a monastery.
SPEAKER_01You you have that's yeah, I've heard you talk about it before.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, oh it's it's a wonderful experience.
SPEAKER_01We we do have some amazing buildings. And and you know, masonry has not stopped building a masing buildings. There is some beautiful buildings. Um I got the I was lucky uh after Martin Starr was here to talk about the Scottish Wright building in Chicago he did put together. I was lucky enough that Martin agreed to meet with me when I was out there for a business event. And he took me out to the building out there and showed me around. Uh we've built, I can't remember if you've been here since we finished the Vancouver Masonic Center. I don't think so. Where did I uh I there's one, there's a we've got new one. We got a new one. No, I don't think you've been here because it was like because in 2020 we commissioned the Agnes building or 2019, the one here in New West, close to me, as beautiful, beautiful space. And then we did another one in Vancouver, like not sure like in the fall right before the pandemic. So the the the the like fall of 2019, and then by 2020 we're all locked down and nobody can use the buildings for nothing. Yeah. And so I don't think I've had you here. And I don't think so. And I I would I would love a chance to show you these buildings. And then of course, we had the the the the arson destruction of a couple in North Vancouver, and we're getting a chance to rebuild one. It was only gutted. The Lawnsdale Temple has been a bit of a saga, and I'll tell you that next time we're in person together. Um, but the the the craft in general, I mean, we've been losing buildings everywhere. That uh I saw um uh I very much enjoy Chris Hodap's uh Facebook page because he picks up on all the the the news of the craft, and there's a building in St. Louis, I think. I think it's in St. Louis. Uh$25 million they're selling it for.
SPEAKER_03Have you seen this? No, what is that? This is California Freemason. And uh Freemason like style.
SPEAKER_01Look at that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this one is very, very good because it's got everybody's different drag.
SPEAKER_04Well, that's cool. Yeah, I like that.
SPEAKER_01But we do have we do have some beautiful spaces, like I was saying, and and it's uh you know it's it's the kind of thing that until you get to travel around and look, you really don't get an appreciation for how much of the well, in that case, in that magazine, you're talking about like a like an aesthetic. Oh yeah, look at the look at his tattoo and stuff. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_02So that is encouraging, okay. Uh um masonry in its own way has always been hip. Okay. Even when uh when it's doesn't seem hip. When it's not in fashion, it's yeah. But it's always and I've always thought my dad was was hip in a way, you know. Uh I had always loved the way uh because I would travel with him. He uh uh had a water well drilling company and he'd he'd go out and and visit with farmers and and um you know in setting up um the his business. Um but I would see other Masons see his ring. I I I would see one Mason recognize another Mason. And um once um he he came back to the car after talking to a guy and he said um he said I knew that guy was a Mason and and and sure enough uh he had a ring. And I said, Well how did you know he was a Mason before you saw the ring? And he says, You can just tell. And it's true, okay. You can it's I don't know what it is, it's it's an aura thing, you know. And I can only kind of blame magic almost on it.
SPEAKER_01There's a m there's a magic to the initiation. I think that I think the magic works whether you want it to or not.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah. Right does. Right, and that's the the thing is uh uh uh a well-crafted initiation ceremony uh is uh is a formulaic experience that that is meant to literally mutate the the candidate. The candidate if if they if they're confused, doesn't matter. If it's once you've gone through the formulaic uh uh well in masonry it's like passing the pylons. It's the classic uh Egyptian book of the dead formula of you know when you when you're taking around and everything is it's like passing the pylons as described in the Egyptian Book of the Dead. With word grip and sign them less. Yeah. Oh god, yeah. That's tell me my name. Yeah, crocodile crocod crocodile with the pyria is thy name, you know, or whatever it is. Um it mutates you. Okay, you're a different person when you walk out of your initiation than you were when you entered your initiation, okay? And that's got to have uh uh a subtle, but to me a measurable um uh consequence to it's uh just your general aura. I hate to use that, but it's your your aura is different. And when when dad said, I knew that guy was a Mason before I saw his ring, and uh he said, I I can just tell. Now my dad wasn't a mystical guy, he wasn't a he wasn't um uh uh certainly wasn't a religious guy, uh but his his his spirituality was in his character and that character recognized the qualities of that same character in that Mason that he spotted as a as a Mason even before he saw his ring or talked with him.
SPEAKER_01And uh I I think recognizing other beings as spiritual beings and uh taking some comfort in that, I mean that's the it's a cornerstone in deism, but I think this is the pure religious impulse. Yes. This is the impulse that's perverted by many organized religions. Yeah, yeah, right? And I because I don't think it's that unusual for for you to say that about your dad. Because I think we're we're surrounded by good people all the time. Right? Most people are good people, yeah. Bad people. Society wouldn't have built this mighty edifice that we're living in now with if most people were bad. And I think it's despite this is this is my own uh um religious issues coming to to to the fore, but I I I think it's in spite of organized religion, not not not because of anything. Because of it, yeah, they they get they get in the way more than they helped. Yeah. And I I think I think Freemasonry isn't like that. I think it's um it's like here, this is take your pure spiritual impulse, and here's us introducing the the divine spark to itself. Here you go. Right. And that's what that play is about. And um I don't know if that's if that's those are your words because I'm remembering them that way, or if that's just something I've discovered since. But you know, it's um it it's it's gratifying to hear that you were able to spend time with your with your dad in that way. I my dad and my brother never my dad's past now, and my brother never joined the craft, but it's just it's not for them. It's it's right. Now, you've gone over why you've why you joined. What what kept you involved? Because you have no uh no lack of other things you're involved in. Why did you stick? Most guys don't. More than half of guys leave.
SPEAKER_02Well, after a few, after a f a few years, um, you know, I had new projects and uh the music career happened. You know, I did a 10 year 10-year return to music and and things like that. So I wasn't um uh actively involved in uh local lodge activities and stuff. But the the the look, when I was uh when I was raised, I was a Mason. That's it. I'm a Mason. Yeah. There there's no there's no question about sticking with it, you know. Um the the it's it's part of who I am now. And um to to leave the craft is uh is as impossible as leaving myself. Right. So uh and if uh you know I didn't expect to get anything out of masonry that I didn't give to it. Okay. And I think people l uh leave the craft ex uh not knowing what to expect and keep waiting for for it to give them something when when they've they've missed the whole point of of Masonry's uh the only thing masonry has to give to you is your own realization, is your your your own awakening. Right. And and and you can't you can't blame the the craft for not waking you up when you're not when you're not willing to wake up your yourself to see what you what you've got. It's like uh uh it's it's not uh the the dues aren't uh aren't a burden, for heaven's sakes. Uh uh uh uh my dad, I uh uh he joined the Masons the year I was born in 1948. And uh uh he uh probably um uh he was the best Mason I I've ever met. And and he wasn't act uh very active in in lodge work probably after the first six or seven years, you know. But he was he lived his Masonry, he lived the craft, and uh uh he did everything he he could do in in uh uh to uh to s with his character in his life speak well of the of the the the craft. And uh so y you know they say masonry makes a good man better, okay. And and I know that there are people can be real jerks. Oh, sure. And I'm not saying that there aren't there aren't jerk masons, sure. Or masons who are jerks, okay. But you know, I think there'd be bigger jerks if they weren't masons.
SPEAKER_01I I often say just that the fact that two guys signed their paperwork and three guys went to your house and met you in your park, like that little vouching, and then we all cast a ballot to Yes or no. Like in the outside world, there's no vouching for anybody, right? Yeah. But it but in the craft, you gotta you gotta pass that little test, at least that little test.
SPEAKER_02And that's one of those pylons that that are passed in the Egyptian book of the dead, you know. So it's big stuff. It's really big stuff, uh disguised as a civic organization.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And I I and in I mean it it's not it's it's a million little things that have arisen since I've joined, you know, and I was actively interested in studying esotericism and philosophy before I before I became a Mason. But I have seen a a complete change in in the organization internationally now with more and more young guys. That's what they want. They they they want this sort of philosophical approach to a a personal practice that that needs people who know what they're talking about. And uh, you know, that thank you so much for this tarot architect at the at the right time, you know. Um let's return to that a little bit. So so how do you uh a lot of Freemasons be like, well, and I I've been saying on the podcast over here, I'm like tarot, Kabbalah, ceremonial magic, um uh uh Solomonic magic, uh theurgy, even to Martinism, all this stuff. None of that is Freemasonry. None of it is Freemasonry. Yet when you look back and study the historical personages involved in all of these things, and tarot expressly is like this, every major figure was a Freemason. So so and I I agree, guys are like, this isn't Freemasonry. It's like, well, no, in in the same way that uh, you know, uh well, studying anything isn't Freemasonry. It isn't Freemasonic, but it certainly it's certain the the the the Masonic initiations and instructions certainly help. And well, can you talk a little bit about um uh how you see the the the tarot as a as a tool for development for the for the interested individual?
SPEAKER_02Well, first of all, it's uh the the uh the basic cabbalistic flashcard system. Okay. Um you don't have to uh I didn't come at tarot as for to read cards for people. Okay. I came at tarot as um as uh um uh as a mystical way to to uh uh pleasantly learn uh uh Kabbalah.
SPEAKER_01And uh sorry to interrupt you, was that Regardi's fault or was that somebody else early in your career? Because Regardi was still around and probably hadn't published The Garden of Pomegranates yet.
SPEAKER_02Uh or had he, or it just wasn't he had, yeah. Um uh Paul Foster case was uh of course, yes, yes. My introduction to uh uh uh Tarot. And that's yeah Builders of the Aditum. Builders of the Additum. Oh, no. And uh uh Amor got me used to the self-discipline of regular occult initiatory practices, okay? And they the they they did a good job even with the weekly monographs. Right. Okay, you you you ritualistically uh set up a little t little temple, a telesterian in your in your your home to open up the monographs and read it, and it was special. It was real initiation. Keep going, Laura. Okay. And uh uh B O T A taught the the the same way in those those weekly monographs, and uh um have you got a BOTA book there?
SPEAKER_01Well, I just wanted to I just a brother just gave me a whole pile of these that were his dad's. Oh wow, yeah. Yeah, and here fifth and sixth degrees Amorg, Rosa Crucible.
SPEAKER_02There you go. Right. And it was special. Okay.
SPEAKER_01TMO, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm a TMO or two, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I I I I would say or I wouldn't say, I would prefer to remain unknown. And there's all this, there's all the stuff. Anyway, anyway, please go on. I just thought you'd be amused. Just my brother who moved away recently, he's just like, yeah, it's my dad's old stuff, and I know you're into it, so here you go.
SPEAKER_02Well, I found out uh uh before my aunt died that she was she had all the monographs too. Uh yeah, my dad's sister.
SPEAKER_01So looking uh uh you're you're an ex an expert in the tarot and a grandmaster of the tarot, are you not? I believe. Um yes, yes, so things are, yes. Yes, yes. Um and you've been studying this stuff for a long time. Uh when one I say this all the time, uh the tarot, Kabbalah, ceremonial magic, um, theurgy, Martinism, even, uh all of this different stuff, right? Rossacrucianism, none of it is Freemasonry. But when you look at those traditions and you look at the intersection of those traditions, um all of the major people involved were all Freemasons. Right? So so right? And so the the rank and file Freemason would be like, well, you know, this is just you weirdos involved in that. It's true. But it and it it we are weirdos, uh, I will admit. Um but and it but it it it I think all of us weirdos kind of find our home in the craft because it's open, you know. Um do you wanna do you want to talk a little bit about how Freemasonry has inf influenced the tarot and and also maybe what a what a an aspirant a Freemasonic uh student of the work might might find by studying and and practicing with the tarot. You you care to talk about that?
SPEAKER_03You were you were gonna wax up in the time we have left.
SPEAKER_01Yes, that's all that's all I want. Just that small one this one little thing. This is a small thing, the entire history of the craft and all the people involved.
SPEAKER_02No, yeah, you you've you've uh observed uh correctly that uh masonry isn't alchemy, uh masonry isn't uh uh uh you know, it encourages us to uh uh uh study the liberal arts and geometry, music, and all of that. Um but it doesn't require that we do, okay, just uh um but uh as I was saying just a few minutes ago about uh the uh a well-crafted initiation ceremony mutates a person, uh we can sort of start there. The thing that everybody has in common in the craft is that in a sense, even if we're even slightly affected by our Masonic initiatory experience, even a little bit, we in a sense are a bit freer individuals than those who have not. And I don't want to sound elite or snobby or anything else, but Homer Homer said concerning the people that that initiates of the rites of Eloysis. Homer said they will not have the same fate when they're dead and go down uh to where the sun don't shine, okay? Uh not meaning that everybody else is going to some kind of hell or something else, but there is something that their initiation had freed them. Now, masonry, uh especially uh the the craft as it was influenced uh um uh in the eighteenth century in France, reveres the Knights Templar uh as at least uh soul brothers in in the craft. The Knights Templar were different kind of world citizen. They had rights, they could move as they will without having uh uh local magistrates or local kings uh uh tell them where they could move they could move as they will on the face of the earth. They were free to move wherever. The same way was the esoteric craft of masonry, of stone masonry, they were a different class of citizen, a different class of world citizen. And even if you've you've just walked through cynically, maybe even the degrees of Freemasonry, you have a bit of that free person. Solomonic magic. The reason Solomonic magic works is because the magician himself or herself is freed from certain superstitious restraints. In other words, they're spiritual grown-ups. That's why the magic works, okay, because they're not slave to ignorance and masonry masonry uh encourages each member of her body to be that free individual. We're even freed from Bible stories, okay? Even if you uh just normal white bred Christians, masonry obliges us to to learn lessons from Bible stories, but they're stories of Bible characters that aren't even in the Bible. Right. So in other words, like there's something else going on. We're free to use uh uh scripture in a way that frees us from being a slave to it. That's that's uh that is a liberating attitude, and Freemasonry uh uh of various degrees has that. And so people like that are the alchemists, are the musicians, are the great artists, are the scholars, are the the occultists. Okay. And so it's it's it's not that masonry did that to them. Okay, didn't make that, masonry didn't teach alchemy. But I tell you it, you have to be a free person to actually get what alchemy is about. You have to be a free person to actually get what universal spiritual sciences and arts are are like, and masonry gives you masonry helps make you that free person. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01Yes. And I I can't think of a better spot to to stop putting questions to you. Um you're you're gonna be presenting at Esotericism and Freemasonry Conference 2026. Yes, yes, which is happening on September 19th. I better double check that. Right up there by the it's this it's in Seattle, Washington. September 19th. It's Seattle, Washington. Um, and uh you'll be presenting on the tarot architect. Yes, maybe doing a little practical stuff with the tarot architect.
SPEAKER_03And oh, I'll probably be doing yes.
SPEAKER_01And we will make sure to have a bunch of tarot architect books there, you know. Uh and you don't have to read them, but please, please buy them. There, and there there is there is the there's the book there. It's a big thick book, too. It's you get a lot of paper for your for your money. Pay for a book like don't answer. There's that yes, Mr. Polpale. Tell tell me, there's more. Um thank you, Lon, for doing this with me today and helping promote EFC, even though we're just in the beginning stages of it. Um, but it'll be a joy to see you present on this tarot architect subject. I think it's important for uh for craft freemasons that are interested in tarot to be studying it in this manner. I think so.
SPEAKER_02I'm looking forward to it.
SPEAKER_01All right, brother. Well, we will uh catch up with you again at another time. And when you've got your next book or your next event coming up, please uh please any other events coming up in the between now and then that you want to promote?
SPEAKER_02What do you got coming? Well, well, I'm gonna be um um speaking to the Freemasons over here in Livermore. Um I don't don't know quite what the date is. And this next Saturday, um I'm gonna be speaking on uh Enochian magic of Dr. John D. Um to my friends at the Swedenborgians. Uh that's cool. Yeah. Is that a Swedenborg church or a Swedenborg right? It's a Swedenborg Center. So it's yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh in uh uh uh did you know that they are a major force in colonizing the prairies of Canada? Whoa. Yeah, that's the Swedenborg Church really laid down awesome.
SPEAKER_02They're great people. I spoke at the Swedenborg Center in London and and I've spoken to them before over here in Berkeley or uh El Cerrito.
SPEAKER_01And and it is that open to the public or do you have to be a member of it? Wow. And what day is that? This Saturday, uh being Saturday. Uh and uh I think that's um yeah, just looking at Saturday, April 4th at the Swedenborgian Center in Sacramento.
SPEAKER_02No, in El Centro, uh not El Centro, uh uh El Cerrito.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02Uh which is Berkeley.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So that's a bit of a drive. So uh make sure that you go and see now. Are you doing your whole Enochium magic thing where you chant where you give everybody the paper ring and we chant around the table tablet of beauty?
SPEAKER_02Actually, that would probably be too big of a heroic thing to do. I'm probably uh I I've got uh a more introductory uh I think that's fair, you know. We will scry though. We will do a we'll we'll do an Aether, but we uh uh Yeah, I'm not gonna bring the holy table and everything like that. That's all like I did the Joshua tree.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so well please uh uh uh support Lawn, buy his books, and go to that event, and uh we will see you in Seattle uh on uh September 19th. Thanks, Lawn. You're welcome. Thanks for listening today. You can support the show by liking, sharing, and subscribing on your favorite podcast syndicator. Even more helpful, leave us a review. We are looking to create a directory of pre-Masonic events and publications. If you are aware of something coming up, please let me know by email. In the meantime, check out the Masonic Conferences website at Masonic Conferences.com. Last chance, Grand Masonic Day 2026 will be held at 10am on April 18th at the Vancouver Masonic Center at 7th and Granville. Our keynote speaker will be historian, scholar, and author Joseph Wages, with special guest Arturo Dafoyos. Tickets are available on Eventbrite. I, Brother Troy Sprue, will be speaking at Capilano Lodge, number 164, on Wednesday, April 22nd. I'm presenting my talk, Memory Palaces Everywhere, about emblematic imagery and western exotericism. Lodge tiles at 7.30 p.m. at the Vancouver Masonic Center. This same talk will also be presented on Wednesday, May 13th at Star of the West Lodge 29 in Nikas. To see other dates for my presentations, check out my updates on the Mystic Eye Patreon. Exotericism and Freemasonry Conference will be held Saturday, September 19th. Our keynote speaker will be Lon Milo Duquette, author of The Tarot Architect. Get your tickets in advance by RSPP to esotericmasonry at email.com. For other events, check out our calendar at Mystictie.com. And don't forget to sign up for our newsletter while you are there. Graphics and web hosting are by Artsable Creative. A special thanks to Organist for our theme music. Happy to meet. Sorry to part. And happy to meet again.