The Mystic Tye

"The Life and Death of John Yarker" with Bro. David Harrison

• Troy Spreeuw

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"The Life and Death of John Yarker" by Bro. David Harrison

Dr. David Harrison is a UK-based Masonic historian and lecturer who has written fifteen books on the history of English Freemasonry and has published many papers and articles. Harrison has also appeared frequently on TV and radio discussing his work, and he is with us today to discuss his most recent book, The Life and Death of John Yarker.

In this episode, Bro. David Harrison takes us on the journey behind his award-winning biography of John Yarker, the Victorian-era Freemason who abandoned mainstream Masonry in 1862 to pursue a deeper, more esoteric path. Harrison describes how the project grew out of the Covid lockdown period, combining archival research with fieldwork in South Manchester, Didsbury, and the Cumbrian villages of Shap and Swindale where Yarker originated.

We explore Yarker's world of fringe Masonic rites, including the Ancient and Primitive Rite, the Swedenborgian Rite, and his involvement with organizations like the SRIA and other like-minded esoteric bodies. Harrison draws a vivid portrait of a working-class northerner who became one of the most prolific figures in esoteric Freemasonry, all while navigating the tension between the "chain chasers" of mainstream Masonry and the seekers drawn to alchemy, Rosicrucianism, and the deeper mysteries.

The conversation covers Harrison's own Masonic journey of twenty-eight years, from a village lodge in Cheshire through a PhD at the University of Liverpool, and the honest realities of lodge life: falling membership, cliquish dynamics, and the revitalizing power of simply trying a different lodge. We discuss the perennial tension between esoteric and mainstream Freemasonry, how that tension may be worse today than in Yarker's time, and practical advice for younger brethren navigating it.

We also touch on Harrison's research into the formation of the third degree in the 1720s, the influence of Sir Isaac Newton and Dr. John Theophilus Desaguliers on Masonic ritual, and the explosion of concordant bodies in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Harrison shares his personal practice with tarot, his early introduction to divination through his grandmother, and his paper on cosmic consciousness.

Looking ahead, Harrison previews his current projects: a set of W.L. Wilmshurst ritual booklets published through Porchway in collaboration with Dr. Robert Lomas, timed to the centenary of the Lodge of Living Stones next year, and a forthcoming book with Lewis Masonic examining Jacques and Marconis and the first eighteen degrees of the Memphis Rite.

Connect with Dr. David Harrison:

Books mentioned in this episode:

  • The Life and Death of John Yarker by David Harrison
  • The Lost Rites and Rituals of Freemasonry by David Harrison
  • The Genesis of Freemasonry by David Harrison
  • The Quick Guide to Freemasonry by David Harrison
  • The Arcane Schools by John Yarker
  • The Meaning of Masonry by W.L. Wilmshurst
  • Alchemically Stoned by P.D. Newman
  • Angels in Vermilion by P.D. Newman

Links and resources


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Graphics and web hosting by Art Szabo Creative. Theme music by Organist (Moka Only).

Happy to meet, sorry to part, happy to meet again.



SPEAKER_00

It's a pleasure to have you here. I've heard a number of your interviews and I've read a number of your books. We've got you on the podcast thanks to uh our friends at Lewis Masonic. Uh, I guess at our recent book table, we had a pile of your books available, but the the one that got a bunch of notice was this one, The Life and Death of John Yarker. And so, as that's your latest publication, let's get let's get started with that. You want to you want to tell me what what so fascinated you about this this uh important figure?

SPEAKER_02

Um well yeah, uh with Yaku, but I've always been interested in John Yarker. Um I've always been interested in esoteric Freemasonry. Um so so obviously John Yaku was uh you know the big go-to um guy, really, you know, in regards to this. And uh um it was during uh the COVID period, you know, the 2020 kind of period when you know we were all locked down. Yep. Um and uh I just wanted to um get get into some research to keep myself busy, really. Um so John Yaker became um the main focus. I'd I'd mentioned a bit about him, I discussed him um in one of my books called The Lost Rights and Rituals of Freemasonry, which which came out a few a few years before. Um and uh I thought, yeah, that's just that's it. That's the one. Yeah. And we have copies, yeah. Yeah. Fantastic, fantastic. And that that book was great because that really re-relaunched um my kind of career away from the guidebook stuff. I'd I'd gotten into this book where I'd started doing these guidebook things, which which were great. And one of them called The Quick Guide to Freemasonry, that one, that has become one of my all-time best sellers. So um, so I kind of lapsed into this kind of guidebook thing. I I did another guidebook called um the um uh uh Masonic Guide to York, I think it was, or the uh uh something like that. Um anyway, uh and that and that still selling quite well as well.

SPEAKER_00

Um I don't have any of that, but I I have to see.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that one, yeah. Um Freemasonry paternal societies, yeah. Well, yeah, the I was I was kind of getting into this kind of like um comfortable routine of uh knocking out a book a year. Um and it was like you know, it was good because it was selling okay, and and the quick guide to Freemasonry really sold well and and still is, it's still on the best sellers list uh with with loose and stomach. Um it's always present that you know it's it's a big seller, really. Um but I wanted something more, but I I wanted to write a bit more, and um I was obviously being pulled towards the esoteric side. Um and Lost Rights and Rituals was really my first venture into the you know the more esoteric side of things. And I touched on Yaku there, and I really wanted to take that further. Uh so biography was like the next step. Um, so during COVID, um I basically started doing research. Um I I got all his his books together, all his papers together. Um uh we started uh I think there was some um the restrictions were lifted around about May or June tw 2020, and and that's when I started kind of going around to where Harry lived, um in South Manchester, Didsbury, around there. Um so that was really interesting because I love field work, you know, because I I was an archaeologist as well at one time. Um so I'll I love getting into the places where where where these people live. And uh yeah, yeah, um had a great time doing research uh around South Manchester and then went up to Cumbria um Shap in Swindale where where Yaker originated from. Um and again, you know, like visited the places where where he was and and um seeing the things that he saw and and uh culture that he was in. So yeah, I was building up all this research and um the the biography was was the result really. And um uh it I I think from all the books I've ever written, I I really enjoyed doing that book. It was um a journey as well. Discovering Yarka and uh you know his ideas.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and it's very influential, right? Especially uh during the 1880s, nineteen to the nineteen twenties when um when the the occult revival, the more recent occult revival was in full swing, and the golden dawn came out of nowhere and and crowly and all that, and Yarker has intersections with all of this stuff. Had had anybody attempted to write a biography of Yarker? Because there's no no end of Crowley biographies, right?

SPEAKER_02

And and then Oh, there's yeah, there's loads of Crowley Crowley biographies.

SPEAKER_00

Quite a few of the of the of the formative people in the Golden Dawn are all extensively documented and biography, right? And there's yeah, yeah, there's a lot of historical documents.

SPEAKER_02

Well, Yakka wasn't Golden Dawn. No, um I I see Jakker as a bit more working class, so I kind of affiliate I have this affiliation with him in a way because he was a bit more northern. Uh it was a bit more working, it's more you know, working class kind of kind of origins really in in North Cumbria, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um and obviously there was um a Salford connection as well, which was interesting. And uh but but yeah, to answer your question, yeah, there was um uh when when I first started uh doing biography, um I was making inquiries and um someone said to me, Oh yeah, but there's a guy that's been doing a yakobiography for for a few decades or something. Um and it and it's to kind of like suggest that oh yeah, that's there's some guy already doing that, you know. Um and um yeah, it it it was quite strange because I I was kind of um trying to get into places to to look at yaku-related material and um it was quite hard to actually get get into them. I don't know if that was because of the COVID thing or because of, you know, because of the restrictions and people weren't really working um as much as they were or they used to be before working from home or whatever. And um I couldn't get access to a lot of the you know the library-related material. Um so that that became like a bit of a difficult um part of it really. But uh I kind of overcome that in the end. But um, yeah, so there was there was some guy that uh was doing a uh or I was told he was anyway, and then and then someone got in touch with me um when when when I started kind of pouring it about that I was doing the Yaki Bible, someone else got in touch and said, Oh yeah, there's another guy doing it as well, there's another guy doing doing a biography. A third guy? Um yeah, so I thought, oh alright, so there's two doing this too. Two others, you know. So um, but yeah, you know, you you just plow on with with your own ideas. I mean the thing is, as you mentioned, that there's there's so many biographies on Crowley, and they're all different. Yep. You know, there's there's there's not one of them that's that's that's the same. Um and uh I thought, well, it doesn't really matter, you know, because mine's gonna be completely different from theirs. You know, if they if they bring theirs out, you know, at the same time as mine, you know, then yeah, it might affect the the sales and it might affect the you know the market slightly, but in in the end, it's it's gonna be more choice for people to you know to read it and and to uh to view the different biographies, the different styles. Um so you know, I wasn't really that bothered about it, really. If if someone else was was bringing one out, it doesn't really matter in the overall scheme of things.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and and and and who better than you, with you're sort of known for this intersection between uh esoteric and fringe masonry, and with with sort of an academic historical leading, right? And you've you've published enough, right? So uh I I think you're the the perfect choice, uh sort of a sympathetic ear to somebody like Yarker who might not might not get the sympathetic ear depending on what your esoteric affiliations for a practitioner.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, yeah, it was um um there's a there's all that there's all that tension. We're gonna talk about that later, but there is a lot of tension in the craft. I'd call it esoteric freemasonry.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a nicer word, yeah, to use. Yeah, the word the word esoteric is what we call like a soft um soft language um for a cult, really, for the for the occult. Um you know, there's there's various different kinds of soft words that you can use to replace the harder words. Yeah. And um esoteric is obviously one of those that that is used to replace the the harder word of occult. Yeah, so uh um, yeah, you know, um I think I think with Yakka, going going back to what you mentioned uh before about um my kind of liking of Yakka, that obviously helped um uh my enjoyment of of the research, and uh it was obviously gonna be uh sympathetic to Yakka. Um when I when I first started looking at occult stuff many, many years ago, or esoteric stuff many, many years ago, um uh Yakka was always someone that that that stood out because um there was a few papers and things like that that that were um you know didn't look at him um in a in a nice light, you know, you know un unfavourable. Um but um the deeper that I kind of went into the you know the Yaker life and and his Masonic career, you know, um I understood that he he left mainstream Freemasonry because you know he he he he wanted to delve deeper into esoteric research and um uh he he wasn't uh happy with with mainstream Freemasonry. He he he he just didn't like it anymore, you know. He um um he wasn't doing anything for him and um as he as he mentioned a few times um you know he was um fed up of the the promotion aspect you know like people chasing chain chasers um as he sometimes referred to people that are chasing promotions all the time and he he left um Mainstream Freemasonry in 1862, which is when his his infant son died uh uh that year. Um and uh there was um uh living in Manchester, you know, the the whole economic side of things as well was was taking a downturn because of the American Civil War. Uh and you know the cotton um connection because Manchester was was uh one of the leading, well, if not the leading cotton producers um of the time. So there was obviously a like an economic downturn in in Manchester, which probably affected his career to a certain point. And um so it was a pretty miserable year um in 1862 for him. And I always think that that might have affected him in some way. I mean there's no evidence for it, but he it seems to be that he you know thought, right, now's now's the time to uh to leave and and maybe to do some um to explore the esoteric pathway, so to speak. And that's that's exactly what he did, you know. So um which which is very interesting. I think you know, it's it's it's one of those moments I think we've all had them in Freemasonry where you know I'm I'm a bit fed up of it now, you know, I could do like taking a break or um even even I've gone through that, you know, where you think, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, yeah, let's let's switch gears for a minute and ask the the the you know the the show questions we ask everybody the first time on their appearance. Uh why why did you why and how did you join the craft? Well, 28 years ago, yeah, just over 28 years ago.

SPEAKER_02

So um uh I joined because I'd I'd I'd left university in 1997 and um uh I'd started seeing a girl whose father was a Freemason. And I was being introduced to all the social side, you know, the uh the garden parties. Uh it was like a village village lodge in Cheshire. Um so there was a big social scene and there's all these garden parties, which were great, you know. In the summer you'd go around to these big houses and big gardens and you know, free free beer and and things like that.

SPEAKER_00

Nice.

SPEAKER_02

And um sandwiches and you know, uh barbecues. It was great. It was really enjoyed it. It was it was a really relaxed kind of atmosphere, meeting people. And um, I was doing an MA at at that particular time. I'd done my degree, uh, which was in history and archaeology. Um the archaeology side, I I really wanted to pursue the archaeology side, and when I did, I realized there wasn't that much money in it. It was it was um very, very low paid.

SPEAKER_00

A lot of dirt and not much money.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. I didn't I didn't mind the the dirt business, you know. That was great scraping away and finding things. Uh but but then what what would happen was that the the lead group that dig would would get all the glory and and and all the fines would disappear. And uh you'd be there put in the trench, you know, and kind of just digging away. And then they'd come over and say, Oh, well, you know, we've uh the we've not had the grant yet, so I'm afraid we can't pay you yet, you know. So it's you know so so um yeah, the money side of it is terrible, and especially when when you leave the university, you you really need a job that's got some tax done you can you know start start to save up and replenish things and you know, and um anyway, that that didn't happen. So um I decided to do an MM and um in history at the University of Liverpool and I came to do my thesis, which was like uh 15,000-word thesis, and they said, you know, would you like to do it on something strange and kind of exotic, you know, something different. So I was seeing this girl whose father was a freemason, and he he was he he got me into freemasonry, you know, he he he saw an opportunity and and got me in there. And um I loved it, you know, it was like going back to the Victorian era, you know, it was fantastic, you know, history and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Little village lodge that that that met above the pub. And it was great. And uh um so I thought, well, I'll do my thesis on Freemasonry, the history of Freemasonry. Uh in in in the town where where where I'm from, Warrington. I thought, well that you know, that's great. I can I can get some documents and I can you know and I went to the oldest lodge in the town and and got all these documents and minute books and things and um membership records and um did did this little thesis uh like just just 15,000 words and and they liked it that much that they said, oh do you want to do a PhD? You know, I thought, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it sounds good. So and it and it was at the time approaching the millennium when when there was a lot of money around, um and uh big push for education as well in in England, well in the UK, yeah. Um and especially with it being connected to Liverpool, uh the University of Liverpool, which which always seems to be at the forefront of like um not kind of like uh what's what's the phrase I was gonna use? Um forward thinking and and uh it was very kind of risque. Like some some of the studies that that they were undertaking was like very risque, you know, you know, like um like like for example when I when I put forward a thesis um for the PhD uh in Freemasonry, history of Freemasonry, they loved it. And it was like, oh yeah, that's brand new. We've not heard of that before. Let's do that, you know. Oh yeah, yeah. And and there was another, there was a girl that was doing a uh a PhD as well. Um at the same time that I was doing a PhD on on witchcraft. Yeah. At the University of Liverpool, uh, there was some really good kind of uh thesis uh proposals and and studies going on. Um yeah, this this girl was doing one on witchcraft, and uh I was doing the Freemasonry one, and and I think some someone else was um was doing like an esoteric thing as well. Um it was great because there was there was all kinds of stuff like that, and and you'd miss up with these people and you and you know, all doing this strange PhD kind of thesis stuff, and it it was it was great, you know. And it and it was a break from the norm as well, because I think they they they really wanted to do something challenging, uh something different. Um and there was and there was funding as well, which was great. Um I mean I I had my PhD, I think part well, a good percentage of it was was uh funded, you know, and um so it's um unheard of now, really, you know, when uh you know I still tutor people that are doing PhDs and things and they're struggling all the time with with money and funding and um um you know and that's the last thing you need, you know, on your shoulders while while you're doing this kind of thing, because it because it's not easy, you know. Um so yeah, um so I I did the I I went into the PhD and 2000 and um um yeah, um you know I was well into Freemasonry then at that point. Um you know, and it was a good time, you know, e even though um you know it it it was a very old still had the the the older outlook on things where if there was a junior Freemason, you know, you kind of serve at table you know in the festive board and you know as a steward, you know, you had to serve as a steward for like a number of years.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um you know, and um I didn't mind doing it, you know, it's good. You know, I uh it's a good way of kind of getting getting into things and and uh meeting people, you know. And uh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great. I mean it it's good to see that it's changed though now.

SPEAKER_00

It's a generation thing, right? Guys, they they weren't treated as equals from day one, and that's just that our society is built people like that's just yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

This is it. And you know, that that works sometimes, you know. Um I think um you know the the other thing as well is that obviously there's there's less people in lodges now. You know, um like when I well when when I joined the the lodge which which I'm actually I've gone back into now. I've I've I've I've rejoined that lodge now because I have, I've come full circle because they were they were struggling. They I think they were down to about nine members.

SPEAKER_00

Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So um I rejoined because I'd always kept in touch with um you know it well said you know my ex-girlfriend's father, you know, uh I always kept in touch with him and you know he's a nice blow. And so um he he said, Oh, do you want to join again? And you know, you know, bring some of your mates with you. But when I when I joined that there was about 50 in there. You know, you'd never get a seat, you know, it was it was that and now there's nine, you know.

SPEAKER_00

And you weren't you weren't railroaded right into a officer's chair like right away. No, it took a few years for you to get the nod to go in the line. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you fulfill your did you fulfill the the the chairs in that original lodge at some point? Or did you move it?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I'm going into the chair. Um I think next year in that original lodge. Yeah. Um uh well I ended up leaving that lodge because I was I was more concentrated in Liverpool at at that time. And I just just just couldn't make it. So um I actually joined a lodge in Liverpool for a for a for a time. Uh because I'd I'd moved to Liverpool.

SPEAKER_00

That that's a whole other crisis with lodge leadership now is that the the average man in his working career is gonna move on every on a five-year interval. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So how do you have a how do you have a seven or nine year lineup without losing guys? Yeah, right. Uh it's it's and so um what used to be where you know having Passmasters step into a chair here or there, considered just a that's just not something a healthy lodge does. That now it's commonplace. Right now we're and it's that isn't necessarily about membership either. It's just about the guys you the guys that chose to advance can't advance anymore. They're gonna move across the country or into a different country, right? And so yeah, yeah, true, yeah. That happens a lot. And I imagine it's been happening for some time. But it takes us as the craft, it takes us a while to notice things, trends, and behaviors because we're so that I don't think it's a function of our anachronism. It's just you we we like things just so and changing things.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's traditional, yeah. It's very traditional. Yeah, you like to remain in a comfort zone.

SPEAKER_00

Right. It's part of what traditional comfort zone. It's what attracted me to the craft is some of this anachronism and the and you're perpetuating something, right? But in order to react positively to change, you you have to be flexible enough. Anyway, you got into the craft and and you've been in the craft a long time. What we always ask, not just why did you join, but what kept you around? Again, only about a third of guys' stick beyond the first five or six years.

SPEAKER_02

As I mentioned before, I I I've almost left a few times, really. Um I um yeah, I I I joined this Liverpool lodge. Um and uh I was based in Liverpool for a while. And uh obviously while I was doing the PhD and was teaching there as well. Um and uh this lodge was great at first. Um I had a few friends in there. Um and uh again, you know, there's about 40-50 people in there, it's great, you know, vibrant lodge, loads of people, you know, always talking to people. Uh and then uh we had the summer recess, you know, as you do, and then it came back in the September and suddenly there's only about 10 people in there, you know. I thought, oh, you know, what's gone in here? You know, what's happened to you? You know, and um it turns out there'd been a major fallout in in in the lodge between like a load of people and another load of people, and and you know, 20 or so members had gone and and took away the people that used to visit as well, you know. Right. Um so and um so the the dynamic of the lodge changed and it wasn't the same, you know, and the guy that actually introduced me in that lodge had left as well. So I you know, all my mates had gone, you know, and it was it was quite strange. I was I was just turning up and it was like this clutchy bunch, you know. So I thought, oh, I think I think I'll leave. I think, you know, it's not for me anymore. This because I was I was the youngest guy in there, you know, and the rest were all like uh you know retired or you know in in the 60s or whatever. And at the time I I was probably only in the 30s, you know. So so I thought, well it was often meeting in a in a in a in a golf club which which was all a bit kind of strange and a bit kind of um um traditional, shall we say. Um and I thought, oh you know, I I think I'll leave. And then and then they they asked me to stay, they they kind of like persuaded me to stay and they gave me an office. Um when they found out I was thinking of leaving, you know, they they gave me an office. So I started doing something. So I was off the steward's list and started doing something.

SPEAKER_00

Give me a job.

SPEAKER_02

So that that so that that made it more interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And um so I became a warden, one of the wardens, uh, I think it was junior wardens, and uh eventually, and uh and you know, but the lodge still didn't develop, it it it was still very quickly. And at the time I was moving back to Warrington, um, because I had I'd done my PhD. Um I was still working with a crew a lot, bro. But I was also working all over, you know, uh I was getting job offers all the things like that. Uh and and at that time I'd I'd brought out the first book, um, Genesis the Freemasonry, which which which was my PhD. That that was a thesis, kind of re-edited slightly. Right. So um uh I found myself kind of going round it in sorts of lodges, you know, and uh so so that was good. So that that got me back really interested in it, you know, kind of going around to different lodges, and I was seeing how different lodges were working. And I I always say to people, you know, if you um you know if you're fed up with with with with your lodge and you're not happy with it, just go somewhere else. Just leave those other lodges.

SPEAKER_00

Try a different lodge on. It's not the craft, it's just that lodge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's like falling off a bike and blaming the bike for getting your knee. Like it's no. Just try a different lodge.

SPEAKER_02

That's it. That's it. Just just try that just try a different lodge. And and because of of um, you know, the more modern uh kind of ideas that that is permeated into Green Legion now. You know, it it it is easier to go to a different lodge and and because the members are low, you know, you'd be welcomed into that lodge, you know, I'd be like, oh yeah, join, come in, you know, we need we need someone on the ladder, you know. Yeah. So so we ended up joining the lodge that I gave a talk to was in Warrington. And um, you know, we seemed like a nice bunch of guys and I'd visited a few times and because I'd I'd relocated back to Warrington. Um I thought, yeah, it's easier, you know, and and why not? So I left the lodge in Liverpool and then went to another lodge in Warrington. And um, so that's that's where you know they put me on the ladder straight away because obviously they were there were shorter people and and uh I ended up going through the chair, uh, which was probably about ten years ago now, I think. Um when I when I when I got to the chair.

SPEAKER_00

And and how did how did you find that experience? Not not everybody enjoys their first time around when they're when they're pushed into it. Uh, you know, because it's a lot of pressure. And by the time Freemasonry, by the time you're good at any single job, you get promoted. Right? It's like it's like the it's like the embodiment of the Peter principle. You rise to your own level of incompetence and you don't go any further. Yeah. So you just get promoted, promoted, promoted until you're a has been. And then it's time to work around here, district positions or grand lodge positions. So I'll be I'll be DDGM of my district next year. So I I I I'm fully aware of how this how this plays out. So uh it's interesting that you that you point out that um, you know, to to to keep you interested, they they gave you a task, they gave you a job.

SPEAKER_02

Also, yeah, yeah, going around and talking about grievancy or I was thinking of leaving. Yeah. Yeah. As as as soon as I mentioned that, you know, they say, Oh, well, you know, don't leave, don't leave. Do you want a job? Do you want to, you know. And I think I think at first he gave me um uh assistant secretary because like I was obviously a lecturer, you university lecturer now, and and I was, you know. Uh and then he said, Oh, you can go on the ladder that shit, you know, uh, you know, we'll we'll give you a deacon job, and then you know, you can uh yeah, you're on the ladder. So um, but you know, that that that was good, that got me interested, and I was doing something. Um but it was still the same old clicky lodge. Uh I I noticed as well that not a lot of young people were joining. There was um a young guy joined and then he left, and and and we were doing these ceremonies and the people were leaving, you know. You know, they did read second degree, third degree, and then they're gone, you know. And um so um, but yeah, when I when I joined the Logic Warrington that that kind of really revitalized things, you know. Um uh but that was also going the same way, you know. That by by the time I'd I'd got into the chair, you know, a lot of the old guys had passed on. Um a lot of the young guys had left. So it it it it was a similar thing as well, like a similar story, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Um I found I found the experience of being in the chair quite quite good, really. But also you you talked about traveling and lecturing at different levels. You've you've published a number of works, and and I know this a lot of this brushes up against what I would consider esotericism, Masonic esotericism, fringe rights, and that sort of thing. Um you want to talk a little bit more about your work, what you've published and and um how it's affected your uh your view of the craft and your own practice.

SPEAKER_02

Um yeah, I mean, one of the things um that struck me going back to the John Yankee biography, uh you know, he he he he left. Uh main mainstream Freemasonry and just embraced this uh esoteric. Yeah. Um, you know, he had the ancient and primitive right, and he had the Sweden Borghian right, and he had uh, you know, part of Society of Eight and like-minded Masons. Um he was a member of the S RIA, uh early member, and and um he was involved in in many, many other rites as well. You know, the uh the the orders, the Zudomites was was another one. Um you know uh he saw him about countless, countless orders and rights that that that he was involved in.

SPEAKER_00

And um that wasn't unusual at the time for esoterically inclined, like Rossicrucian inclined, yeah, uh philosophically inclined, like the the the French occult revival of the eighteen forties just exp exploded into into English Freemasonry, right?

SPEAKER_02

The whole Yeah, I mean you know, the um century was full of it. Olivis Levi and and um you know um yeah and Martinist Martoni and Hegliostra, all of this stuff. Yeah, that that all got all filtered into uh you know Yark's kind of framework for it. And um uh he he found that comfortable and he found that um spiritually enlightening and he embraced it and uh that that was what he wanted from Freemasonry. Uh so so Freemasonry for him was a gateway, mainstream Freemasonry was a gateway to this. And um, you know, he he he probably experienced what what what I experienced, you know, that that that kind of restriction. Uh you know, I mentioned about the ladies' evening and uh you know when I was um in the the chair as worshipful master and that to me was like you know that was ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00

That was like like why why is there a resistance?

SPEAKER_02

Why why why is this such a problem?

SPEAKER_00

And um it it's I mean you you want to talk about that tension that I mean I think that tension between esotericism, alchemy, cabal, tarot, ceremonial magic, uh Solomonic magic, grimoirec magic, the things that uh John D. and Edward Kelly were up to like none of that stuff is Freemasonry. But within the bounds of the craft, you're gonna find enthusiastic practitioners of those forgotten sciences, right? Yeah, yeah. And at that time, you're talking about Yarker you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02

Um when you're at the festive board and you're talking about, you know, there's guys there that are talking about promotions and talking about, oh, you know, uh had a had a weekend playing golf with uh, you know, the uh deputy provincial grandmaster, and you know, and then you get another bunch of guys that that are talking about alchemy and and they're talking about John Yacker and and they're talking about magic and and talking about prosecutionism. And so so you can see the differences, you know, you can see um you know the the uh that split that was going on in Yaker's death, you know, and and and Yaku obviously got sick to the back teeth of talking about someone kind of um talking to the provincial grandmaster and and and the deputy and having a having a drink in the club, you know, you know, with these guys. And and he he wanted to find out about um you know the um uh the Bektashian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He he he wanted to delve right into the the mysteries of nature and science. And and he was fed up of all that stuff. And he thought, this this isn't what I'm here for. And um that's that's why you went that way, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm interested in Yarker because I uh there's a tension now, so this is what I want to talk about. There was tension then between empirically philosophically leaning Freemasons and Yarker. Yerker was on the business end of not a little bit of that, but a lot of bit of that. But I think the tension is worse now. There's less tens in the wider craft for these sorts of things, and yet those students looking for those things are among the only people interested in the craft now. So the craft has this conundrum. But what what what do we how how are we gonna satisfy these young men that come into the craft? And I have advice for them, you know, at the at this esotericism conference we run, guys always ask, how can I bring this back to my lodge? Well, talk about the philosophy of the working tools and the tracing boards and the lodge carpets. There's enough symbolism, there's enough esotericism in the study of those symbols. You you know, there's tons of it there. You don't have to start talking about internal alchemy or bring get everybody a tarot deck or any of this stuff, right? But but can you talk a bit about that tension? Have you seen have you seen that tension? Do you have do you have a solution for the modern craft to deal with it?

SPEAKER_02

And um everyone's looking down on you, frowning, saying, Oh, it's terrible. And and then at the same time, you know, you've got this kind of, well, you know, I I I want to know about this stuff, you know. I I I want to know about the deeper meanings to Freemasonry. I want to delve deeper into it. I want to delve deeper into um, you know, the the things that John Yarker delved into, you know, um the true meaning behind Freemasonry, you know, and and um go go on that journey to to to discover that, you know. And uh and one one guy that that that did that was um Wilmshurst in the uh you know the early 20th century. You know, he he um set up his own lodge, Lord of Living Stones, and um that became a very esoteric lodge. Um and he he managed to get away with it because he he he was a Grand Lodge officer, you know. Um uh he was a bit of a contradiction because he was he was a solicitor, Grand Lodge officer, he was he was mixing with Grand Lodge officers, and the Masonic hierarchy book was still this esoteric figure that was you know being published in the court review and um you know was inspired by Art Rodward Waite and Yaaker and all of these.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And and he was very much into the fact that um, you know, free memory to me, was it was was was basically a search for the divine. Um the divine within, you know.

SPEAKER_00

So I know Ike Baker's been talking about um Wilms Hearst's main book, The Meaning of Masonry. Uh I'm I'm reading it again. Um I I appreciate again, it's it's it if you're within the confines, certain confines, it's okay, right? But still there there is uh there is a lot of suspicion. And for for me, um I got into the craft and was immediately talking about this stuff. And for that, I I recommend to younger guys interested in this. That's just don't do that. Don't do what I did. It's too late for me. It's too late. Go on without me. Uh but there's there's a there's a way to approach this stuff that isn't threatening, and it is about personal work, you know, and people are willing to talk about it. Um what about um what about concordant body activity? Have you have you found any f further light in masonry with concordant bodies? A lot of guys would criticize, they'd be like, oh, if you're interested in that, go here in North America, it's like Surya S-R-I-C-F, or it's AMD or Scottish Rite, Ross Rose Qua, there, right? Um that's where you get that stuff. Don't don't bother my Blue Lodge with that. I just want to eat green beans and and go to the pub with my buddies.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well have you had any experience with that?

SPEAKER_02

Um what what you mean like with um side orders? Yeah. So still I well I joined the SRIA af after going through the chair uh in in that lodge from Warrington, I I joined the SRIA. So that that was great, you know. Um I love the SRIA. That's that's fantastic. I was um you know I'm I'm seem to be grade seven, so you know, and and it really nice order. Um and again, you know, you meet some people in there that that um you know it it's all about alchemy or it's all about this and that or whatever. But but they're all doing it, they're all doing their own little thing, you know. They're all they're all doing their own little researches, you know. Um and uh you can present papers as well, that's that's part of it, and um, you know, which is good. Um but yeah, it's just a nice order, you know. It's it's um uh I really enjoyed the SR, yeah. Um mainly kind of like-minded, esoteric people, you know, that that that are together. And and it's really SR, yeah, there's other orders and it's kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_00

So I daren't ask a brother on the record about their own personal practice, but I'm gonna ask you anyway. We could always edit this out. Any any anything you want to share with the class that that you discovered that you're really quite passionate about? I know you you keep one foot in the academic in the academic realm, and academics, especially in Western esotericism, never talk about practice. Um I have lots of academics that are friends that I know they have a personal practice, but they don't talk about it publicly. Um But I'll get I'll give you the I'll give you the choice here to either talk about that or or give some advice uh to younger members of the craft that are interested in going to find this stuff. Like where should they be looking?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, what what for like um what more kind of what are we talking about?

SPEAKER_00

Magic, more magic stuff or you take the Kabbalah and tarot that they instruct you in with this with Sriya or the meditative practices and bring that home and try trying to approach the mind of God directly, for example.

SPEAKER_02

I've I've always been a uh a reader of tarakats, always. Um I started to get into that. Uh well my my my grandmother on the mugger side was was very much into reading tea leaves and and um divination and and things like that, and um she used to get people around uh people. used to come around for for the tea leads kind of things stuff like that and uh so that was my my kind of introduction to that as a as a as a child really you know um you know um my nan used to tell me stuff and things like that that's cool and and um so I got into the tarot when I was a teenager um and then when university came I was I was um I was reading tarot cards then you know um and people used to buy me tarot cards as presents and things so I got well into the tarot um and the history of the tarot as well um so um I used to give uh readings uh one time um people used to come round and and we used to give the pub and I would meet them in the pub and do do a do a reading um uh especially in student days you know uh that was good um but yeah um uh and I've had some spiritual experiences shall shall we say uh some um um I I did a paper on cosmic consciousness well that's a good thing I'm gonna have to go find that yeah um in in in fact we we talked about Wilm'surst I've I've actually putting out the Wilm's Earth rituals at the moment with um Dr. Robert Lomas um we're putting out the all the uh the craft rituals of uh Wilmsturst and uh because it's the the center with the Lodge of Livingstones next year uh just about putting the finishing touches on a little booklet um called five five essays of Wilmers um so that's that's that's coming out soon as well in in the next few weeks so um and and that actually has the essay of of cosmic consciousness in in there so so I'm thinking about I I was always into that stuff I I was always into the esoteric stuff and the occult stuff if you like and and um um it was there kind of bubbling away and obviously the Freemasonry thing that happened in 1998 I think it was on about 1998 that was like as I mentioned before it was the gateway to that allowed me to go through and enter this this deeper real and obviously being a historian and doing doing the PhD and um discovering all these characters that were involved in Freemason and writing about it.

SPEAKER_00

Um that enabled my kind of journey to kind of open up and look at others that had gone through the same thing and and going back to Yaaku I mean he he he obviously uh had it had it uh an an experience you know a a personal uh spiritual experience which which was due to smoking marijuana um and that's that's in the book um and he and we know about this because he because he wrote a letter to um F G U who was another message at the time and he describes this kind of wonder with with nature and with with with with with the divine basically and and and you know so so he he was searching for that and um if you if you read your P D Newman have you have you read Alchemically stoned or angels in vermilion um yeah well I know I know uh uh Mr Newman yeah yeah yeah we've we've uh corresponded is it yeah he's good yeah it's uh that that it's scholarship or not you know he he makes an interesting argument uh that the alchemists and and magicians of old were all like taking entheogens like crazy and that and that quite a few uh fringe free mason Masonic rights uh Egyptian right to Cagliostro's right yeah Cabliostro's right maybe he was dosing his his his candidates like the bitter draught was hash or maybe it was DMT maybe it was bold um yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah or some some piece of the case of that uh was was was being used yeah definitely took took a drink I think it was in the telegraph yeah uh um and there was a drink offered yeah uh I think option and um and they put them in a vault like in a darken to to think about what they did and they and they they yeah they had to that's right yeah and that's um that red powder that did that that Kelly couldn't see the angels without that red powder right D yeah didn't work for D but it certainly worked for Kelly and that uh yeah yeah yeah yeah you know looking back on that uh and it uh the the formation of the Royal Society too and Danny Newman talks a lot about that the how how the list of things they were looking for to test were like uh it could be like a a list of of restricted drugs now like all of them the the opium that's right he he he references um Genesis the Freemasonry so you know and and and we had this conversation about Oshmo and um you know a few others Newton as well uh that that that somebody somebody I mentioned I was interviewing you these like oh you should approach Fig Newton's for a uh for a sponsorship and I'm like what and they were like well he he he makes the connection between Isaac Newton and Desigoulier around the time of the formation of the United Grand Lodge and the the writing of the Master Mason degree um because you talk in in one of your books I I recall I don't recall where it is could could you talk a little bit about that before we wind up with some promotional stuff yeah well that that that was the genesis of Freemasonry yeah my my my PhD where um I basically talked about discussed how uh Sir Newton and Christopher Wren um were obsessed with the um design of Solomon's temple.

SPEAKER_02

That's correct they were they were searching for the uh divine cubit if you like the divine masonry yeah yeah and um this this was an obstacle of of the time um we're talking about the you know the late 1600s early 1700s um and this is exactly the time when Freemasonry was was uh around in London Westminster and and was um um it brings us to 1717 you know with the foundation of the uh the Grand Lodge um and obviously there was only only two degrees there there was there was only the um the end of the apprentice and the fellow craft and we know this because uh the the um uh the constitutions um you know kind of refer to the fellow craft as as being the end of the journey kind of right uh and then suddenly with the second edition of the Constitutions um 1738 from memory it was um it's all changed and the um the there's a third degree in the the the Master Mason's degree so and obviously they get the um uh the uh expose in 1730 that that that that comes out which has got the three degrees there so something happened in the 1720s that sparked off this desire for a third degree and um um so who who would be around then to to kind of you know push this forward to promote this to be involved in this um so we look at the central figures and we've got someone like Dr. Jean Theophilus Desiglier James Anderson um both very religious people both both um you know for forward thinkers really um very intelligent people um and Desigoulier was a follower of of um Sura yeah um and uh so this um this kind of investigation for Solomon's temple and um you know it it it kind of made sense that this inspired you know the the the formation of the uh the third degree um and mid-1720s at least this is this is when I think most most Masonic scholars now now kind of accept that yeah this was the time when when uh the third degree was uh created and then obviously um by the time we get to the 1730s the Royal Arch 1740s Knights Templar you know and so it goes you know um because because Freemasons always want more you know and this brings us back to the esoteric side you know that Freemasonry is this kind of gateway and there's all these other lawyers to investigate to research to get the answers from I like that I like that that's that little bit is glorious.

SPEAKER_00

Something else I wanted to ask you about we we did talk about the tension between Freemasonry. In the 18th and well especially into the 19th century and Joseph Wages was just here talking about this there was an explosion of continental rights in North America and in England.

SPEAKER_02

Um I think it's just an easy way to make money you know it's it's um if you it was a way to if you're gonna say all but I've I've I've I've got all these secrets you know do you want to join this uh society and you know and um um I mean Count Candliostro um um he's he's kind of down as is as like uh Giuseppe Balsamo you know the trickster and and so he was at it shall we say um you know to to give it the English expression yeah um and um but on the other hand you know he he he he certainly had some kind of mysticism about him he he he had some kind of um charisma and allure and and um he was very successful at what he did got arrested in the end in Italy and you know um and that was basically the end of him and and I think the English thought through him as well he he he visited England um and uh there's that famous cartoon that was printed of him um and and and he's dressed in a military uniform uh in the cartoon and um so yeah I think you know um certain people liked him and and went with him and other people sort through him um and I think you know by the time he gets the you know most most eras in you know Freemasonry there's there's there's always been people um you know um out out to make money in in the 18th century there there was a group um I can't remember what what they were called now it's in it's in the genesis of Freemasonry um I think they were nicknamed mutton masons because they were they were being paid in mutton um to to put people through Freemasonry you know you you know the craft three degrees you know uh and they were and they were paid in mutton I've read that was referred to as the mutton masons the mutton masons yeah yeah it's in synesis the Freemasonry um and um it's an interesting little thing because obviously this this this was just one one lodge that popped up and and you know they were being paid in mutton you you know bring this bring this back to Yarker because Yarker was contemporary with so many of those charlatans. He was a very intelligent man he he he even though he was a working class guy he was a northerner and he was a working class guy and he did very well and um as an agent um he was a translator as well he he so he he kind of got on with with um you know foreigners and things and and and uh you know that's that's mentioned in the book how he how he um you know he he he kind of went to various different countries and and got on with people and and uh um business wise but yeah he was um I think he was intelligent he he he was um wasn't really taken in by people he was he was kind of always interested and eager and he was uh probably willing to kind of give people the chance you know and um um yaka wasn't an academic so he he'd never learned to kind of read a text and and judge it uh professionally and and um question it uh like if you read the arcane school there's a there's a lot of fancy in there obviously there's a lot of fly flying fancy in there really that's that's interesting because it it it puts you in the mind of the arcade you know and it's interesting to read because of that but there's he makes a lot of jumps and and some of the critics in in um in HEC um kind of mentioned that you know oh he's connecting Freemasonry up to everything you know uh all these like every secret society in the world also sure you know that was commonplace it wasn't just him that was that was pretty yeah yeah yeah so he he he was part of that kind of mentality on the you know that that that things were connected going going way back to the uh you know betashi and childings and all that kind of stuff you still active at you still active at Quator Coronati I was just there when Trevor McEwan was installed as the worshipful master oh yeah yeah yeah I'm yeah I'm still still a member and um I don't make it down as often as I can well I I can't make it this time this May because I'm I'm going down to Cornwall uh on a I'm attending the Bood Literary Festival.

SPEAKER_00

I'm speaking on May 13th in the cusp for the Grandmaster of the Grand Lodge of British Columbia in Yukon. If you if you look on your Google maps and see where NACUSP is I've been almost every city in British Columbia well all the the southern British Columbia south of Prince George I've been but necusp is one place I've never been and if you want to see remote go go look at where the cusp is it's a tiny yeah yeah yeah anyway well in in in 2013 I I was in Canada I was um yeah you came to Winnipeg right Winnipeg yeah I was I was in the Midwest conference there and yeah it was great yeah a lot of those a lot of those events um I I I think a lot of those events still run uh but I'm you know I've been so focused on esotericism and Freemasonry conference we've been doing that every September in Seattle for the last 10 years or 11 years. Lon Ducan coming this year Ike Baker coming this year uh but we would we would love to invite you in a future year. Even if you get you here in person that would be lovely. You're still young enough to travel a lot of the guys I I talked to Julian Rees a few months ago and he's like man I'm not traveling in the states right now and that's that's that's fair comment. But uh get get like it's a nine hour flight to get to the west coast of North America. I don't know if you've ever been to Vancouver or Seattle but it's beautiful here um it's summer weather right now it's gonna be probably 28 degrees today um and uh we would we would love to have you here at some point in the future to talk about you know whatever projects you're doing speaking of project what is what is next what is next for you you were talking about that pamphlet with the Wilmshurst ritual yeah well yeah we're doing these booklets with the Wilmshurst uh um rituals yeah um so so there's five rituals opening and closing the three degrees and uh the installation all put in a nice little slipcase nice uh so it's a really nice looking set of rituals um when is that when is that shooting to be published um well the there's three of them published already and the fourth one is due out in a few weeks' time and then the final fifth one is due out in the summer and so we're gonna present them in this slip case which is really nice and through Porchway um uh so uh that's that's uh a new kind of um um sound like publisher that's that's that's that's started oh you're happy in Yorkshire you'll have to put me in touch yeah yeah we'll do it I'll send you the link yeah um Porchway um and uh I'm also doing uh a few kind of booklets for them as well uh because they're specialising in in in Wilmster's being a Yorkshire um printer and publisher um uh and obviously Wilmers was was was from Halifax and he was based in Halifax in Yorkshire so um so it's a big thing there at the moment and um with a centenary of the Lodge of Livingstones never share it. Um so yeah that's that's the current thing uh but I'm also uh I've got a book with Lewis and Sonic planned uh Jacques and Marconi and um uh looking at uh the first 18 degrees of the Memphis right so that's um uh a nice publication that's uh in the queue um and um I'm kind of slowing down a bit because I've got the children um the three three children uh daughters nine son six and uh a baby as well so um yeah it's kind of busy so I've kind of slowed down the rising a bit um uh I won the Abder Award for the John Yaker book uh the end of 2024 so that that got me on a few trips abroad again uh I went to the States again um and uh Guernsey uh which was beautiful last year um beautiful and uh Channel Island and all lodges everywhere which is great talking and about yaka and things uh I'm sure we'll be in touch when something else hits the the printing press we can talk about maybe we'll uh get you back on to talk specifically about Wilmshurst and the ritual uh next yeah yeah it's a big thing next year with with Wilmshurst yeah yeah um fascinating character um I mean for esoteric Freemasonry Wilmshurst is is the go-to guy really um some of his writings are just amazing and and he really does suggest you know that that that that Freemasonry is a pathway for um the divine really you know to to kind of um commune with the divine yeah introduced the the candidates introduced their higher aspects to themselves yeah exactly well uh uh brother doctor david brother doctor or doctor brother whichever way you want to brother uh doctor david garrison thank you so much for so much of your time today we ran almost 45 minutes over time I promised you it's about an hour and then we were almost uh once we get all of it uh started off oh yeah it's uh thanks for looking at you can support the show file like you're gonna find on your Facebook uh even more five