The Mystic Tye
The Mystic Tye is a podcast for Freemasons
I intend to curate a environment where brethren and other aspirants can discuss ideas in a civil and productive way. We will not be afraid to tackle controversial or difficult topics, but all discussions will be done in a respectful and understanding manner. With the forbearance exemplified by our ancient brethren we will labour in the quarry together to prepare the stones of our thoughts and actions. All these prepared for the temple not made with hands.
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The Mystic Tye
The Writing of the Secret School of Wisdom with Bro Josef Wages
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Troy welcomes back Brother Joseph Wages for the story behind one of the most important Masonic source books of the last decade, The Secret School of Wisdom: The Authentic Rituals and Doctrines of the Illuminati.
This is not another Illuminati conspiracy episode. It is the opposite. Wages traces the five year project that carried him from a skeptical teenager reading of John Robison's Proofs of a Conspiracy to assembling, alongside translator Jeva Singh-Anand and co-editor Reinhard Markner, the order's actual ritual system in the words of the men who wrote it. Along the way, buying rare 18th century German books a hundred dollars at a time before Google Books existed, learning to read Kurrent cursive off microfilm, chasing the Urtext through thousands of pages of archival material, and decoding ciphers where even partial fidelity is enough to recover the meaning.
You will get the real architecture of the order, Knigge writing the rituals and Weishaupt writing the lectures, the Congress of Wilhelmsbad, and why the whole story makes far more sense as a Masonic phenomenon than a political one. Wages puts it plainly. These were men after a rationalist society with freedom of conscience, not a shadow world government, and the modern alarmism says more about us than about them.
The conversation closes on something quieter, the loss of Jeva Singh-Anand, and the decision to carry his translation work forward in his memory. If you are carrying something heavy, please reach out to someone you trust.
Looking ahead, Wages teases new work on the Bode reform and a remarkable retranslation of the early rituals of free people of color in Saint-Domingue.
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Happy to meet, sorry to part, happy to meet again.
Welcome to The Mystic Tie, a podcast for Freemasons. I am your host, Chris Proof. You can find us online at Mystictie.com. You can support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash mystictie. Email me feedback, guest suggestions, and any other questions at Troy at Mystikttie.com. In the run-up to Grand Masonic Day 2026, I interviewed Joseph Wages about his recent publications. In talking to him, we brushed on the topic of the secret school of wisdom. There's a lot of stories and history about this work that I really believe should be documented better. This podcast is an attempt to do that. Please welcome back a brother who needs no introduction here. Brother Joseph Wagist. Alright, well, uh, welcome back, Joseph Wagist. Well happy to be back, sir. Uh, we had an amazing conversation uh like four months ago. And then you and Arturo came here for our little Grandma Sonica Day event, and you spoke to a room full of enraptured Freemasons. You guys presented, and I couldn't believe you you did you whipped through like, I don't know, 45, 50 slides and less than 10. It was 70 something, wasn't it? Yeah, in like 45 minutes. And then did QA. You that was you guys were hardcore. Um very much enjoyed. Uh it anybody listening to the sound of my voice that's worried about getting a Masonic presenter, if you could get these guys, one or the other or both, uh highly recommend. Just uh wind them up and point them in a direction and off they go. Uh just amazing. Uh Joseph, you and I talked quite a bit uh in the preamble to my other podcast, and I've got um edited outtakes that I want to release from that original one. But then when you were here, we talked more about it. There is a lot of story and history around the publishing of the Secret School of Wisdom. I got a copy over here. Let's hide in the bag somewhere, and I think I've got one. I gotta wear even myself. I you know the box of your originals I had, including an original first edition copy of this, which is worth a pretty penny, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, hang on to that guy. That's not gonna be cheap now.
SPEAKER_00Well, I they're in a box in this ed. Take a look around. You could see the the way my mind works is the same way my library and study works. So they're in a box around here, but I couldn't lay my hands on them today. Anyway, in in talking about that, um the uh we uncovered that there's some stories there. And I wanted to get you on the podcast to to tell some of those stories. Sure. And so how we're gonna do this, we were just talking about this. I just gotta let you go, like point you in the direction to let you go, like we just said. So I want you to cover as much as you can. And if you use a term I don't I can't identify or a person I don't recognize, I'm gonna maybe raise my hand to slow you down so that I can interrupt rather than interrupting you.
SPEAKER_01Well, college rules the speaker, okay?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So um Yeah, and and I want to get as much detail as you can, and I don't want you to pull any punches. Okay. Um, because uh you know, we're all about the fraternity here, but I I still it's important to get these details down because I think in hindsight, this is gonna be a pretty, pretty important book. Um that the AI agents already think you've changed the conversation online uh for away away from you know what was completely uh speculative before to a more scientific discussion, which I think was part of the goal to produce the Illuminati paper so that we could be like, here's what they were actually doing, because from their own documents. Um so why don't you go ahead and and tell us how did you get involved in that in that rather massive project that kind of took off?
SPEAKER_01Well then okay, so it's it's it's all uh it was all in my head, right? And so like the the first time I heard about like the Illuminati conspiracy theory, um, I forget what it was I was listening to, but it was it was some kind of uh it was a conspiracy podcast of some type. And they were talking about this. So first thing I do is I run out and I go, Brian uh proofs of the conspiracy. And you can get this book, you know, pretty cheap online. Back then, I think it was like 10 bucks or something like that. It's one of those Kessinger reprint books. And so I start going through it and I'm looking at the footnotes, and then straight away like I'm I'm looking for sources, and it's quoting these German books, but like it the German's not spelled correctly, and like so it's already like throwing flags in my head. And so I'm reading this thing like critically, right? Like I don't really care one way or the other, like if is the information true or false, just but what is the information, right? And so I'm looking at it like analytically, and so like if there are if you're already botching the footnotes, right? And it's also known to be an 18th-century conspiracy book. There's also that. So uh you start you start asking questions, and then so what if what it made me want to do is like, well, I want to go find these books, but these are like rare 18th century German books. You don't find those things in the U.S. easily. And this is all before Google Books existed, right? So like none of this stuff uh was even around at this point. And so what I had to do is I would pay uh research students at different universities. So like the Duke University Library, there were several books in there, and like I literally collected like every book that was ever published on the Illuminati, and maybe I paid like a hundred bucks a book for them, right? Like that seems like a steep price to pay. But in the in the in the scheme of things, it's actually a pretty reasonable price to pay because I've got now got high-quality images of all these rare books. And this is before Google Books, right? And so after like kind of diving into all these different books, it becomes apparent to me that like the when the Bavarian government shames the Illuminati, there's also like um propaganda in that stuff where they're trying to make them look as horrible as possible, right? Or or taking things out of context. Because it'd be like if someone hacked into your email box, Troy, in about 15 minutes they could find something that makes you look bad and try to shame you or blackmail you or defame you or something like this, right? And so this could happen to anybody. And so that in mind, like it's obvious that like the Bavarian thing is propaganda, but then also Vice Hop writes all these books to counter them. It's also obvious that this is apologetics, too, because his honored reputation are at stake here. And so you start adding all these things up and start weighing it out. Um, it becomes clear that Robeson was full of it, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01But what the part that was the most like fascinating to me in that book was the ritual system itself because he starts talking about all these degrees in there, and it's these real rough sketches. And the one thing that caught my eye was he said, Oh, well, I used to be a Scottsmaster and this, that, and the other. And he had the original like Scotts master degree, like so that was like the the most interesting bit to me that I took away from it. But the point of my research was actually like the Illuminati. And so um kind of what I got the idea was like, well, I want to know more about these degrees. And so a lot of the degrees were published, right? Like everything up to the Regent degree was published, except for the Freemasonic class of the rituals, right? And so I started working on uh collecting these books together, and then I think it was like 2010-ish. Um, it was the first time I had reached out to Jeeva. He had his book, um, like his uh Knigga book that he had just uh translated, and I got a copy of it. I thought it was the coolest things that the slides read because it was the exact research that I was doing at that time.
SPEAKER_00Go now, yeah, now I've I've raised my hand for the first time. Uh you want to explain, uh, because for people who haven't read the book, um there were several key players in the formation and the operation and then the folding of of of the Illuminati. Please, I mean, keep rolling, but can you explain who Caniga was? And I mean most people would recognize Weishaupt, but they probably don't know who Caniga was.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so Caniga was a different guy. He uh came in the system about 1780. Um, he's looking at the time to like write his own secret society. So he's also a member of this thing called the strict observance, the dominant right of freemasonry in Germany. Um it goes into total decline in 1776 when the founder Baron von Bund dies, and it goes into decline because he says, Well, we're being led by these unknown superiors. Well, after the guy dies, none of these guys uh turn out very well. And so they they ultimately called this Congress in Wilhelmsmond in 1782, and that does away with it. And so they do away with the with the Knights Templar thing, but they just loosely rebrand the system. Um, why we're not the Knights Templar anymore, Troy, we're the beneficent knights of the holy city, the CBCS. And so it's just a rebranding, right? So it's a ritual reform, is what is what happens. Uh, point is though, is going into that Congress at Wilhelm's bod, Knigga, he's wanting to like uh clearly he knows the strict observance is not a real system, so he wants to do his own reform. Well, he runs across uh the Marquis de Costanzo di Costanzo, and he says, Hey, well, this this uh reform you're looking to do here, why would you really want to mess with that when you could just join this system that's already the thing you're looking for? And so he's insinuated into the order. Well, he joins it um and quickly he starts recruiting, and he's a rock star. And the trouble is it was like the the Bavarian Illuminati at that point in time were like this this tiny little group in Munich and surrounding, right? Like in Englishstadt and places like this. So it's a regional thing, and it's a regional like university type thing that's just now starting to branch out into Freemasonry, but there's no connection, and they've only got uh three of the rituals written, right? So that it can only go so far. And so what ends up happening though is uh Knigga wants more rituals to confer. Um, it puts him into contact with Vicehop, right? Because here's this guy recruiting and it's gonna wreck the system. And so, like you what the point is, is like you've got uh both these guys with the in the sense that they're the dual founders because they come together. Bicehop's not a ritualist, and so Knigga says, Hey, look, I'll write all the rituals for you. You work on the lectures because that's the actual messages we're trying to teach these people. Let's put these two things together, and that's what they do. And so they have like a term for the agree to where um uh he'll write the rituals, he'll write the essays, they'll put two the two together, and then they'll pass uh the files back and forth until they get an edit that they like, right? And then once the edit's done, we can start conferring this ritual, right? And so that that's the backstory. So Pniga is like a co-founder of the Illuminati, he's the guy that writes all the rituals. Bisop is the guy that writes all the lectures, so all the intellectual stuff, uh kind of the whole reason for the society. But uh, it's still because it's largely a Masonic or Paramasonic, if you want to look at it a different way. Um, Secret Society, you have to have all these Masonic degrees, but Bisop only has the second degree and he quit going to lunch. So he's not gonna write this itself. Right. Okay. So that that that's that's that's Knigga and Bisop in a nutshell. Um, so back to the story. Um Please. Yeah, so I'm I'm I'm reading all these different uh rituals and I'm putting them together, and then this uh translation of Philo's reply from uh uh Jiva comes out and he is this Knigga book, and I love it. And so the first thing I do, I reach out to the guy and I see he's got a translation business. When I kind of proposed to him, I was like, hey, what would happen if like we you we came together on this stuff? And because you're a professional translator, right? Like I can I can I can loosely do this stuff, but I'm an amateur, right? I don't have any kind of credentials, I don't do this professionally. Any translation I produce, even if it is good, it's not gonna carry any weight because I'm not a professional translator. Of course, yeah, yeah. Right. So I want to do it the right way. So the whole goal is to run this project the right way, and I visualized it, right? So I saw it in my head before the project ever happened. I saw the finished product in my head, and I knew what it was gonna be, and I knew what it was gonna have, and I didn't know how I was gonna get there or the cast of players. And so as these opportunities kept presenting themselves to me, I started filling in the script a little bit. And then so like Jeeva pops up and Jeeva and I start taking off on this work, and Reinhard's not a part of it yet. Um, and I'd mentioned the idea to Reinhardt, and he gave me an idea. He goes, Well, if you're gonna do this, you're gonna need these and these texts. And so we start going through all the the published exposes, right? Because the idea is to start with, okay, well, here's what the Bavarian government said, here's what was printed in the exposees versus what do the actual rituals in the archives say. And so I get to um transcribing these things, and I could have like sat on it and gone slow, but I thought, well, hey, look, you know, I I do uh you know commercial engineering, and so there's all the it's it's giantly giant, a giant iterative process is what it is, right? It's a lot of back and forth, a lot of revisions, and you can't have any egos about this stuff. It's just go, go, go to get to the right product, to get to the final accurate thing. And that's how we approach this project is we tackled it one file at a time. So off that original list that Reinhard generated, uh, we started knocking it out, right? And just like crossing them off. And then we got um we got a draft together. And then Reinhard says, okay, I like it. He goes, but I like it better with my name on the title. And um, we also need to now uh compare it to the original originals in the archive. I said, Okay, mission accomplished, let's do this. Wow. And that's it. That's how we did it. So like it was it was like one of these things where like uh all the cards fell into place all at the right time. And like, so I saw the finished thing in my head, and it was just like I started like like anytime you solve a problem, right? Like you start making like like habitual and like relentless progress towards it, you hit an obstacle, you don't stop working, you step lateral and try start solving another front, and then you step back to it when you have to lateral somewhere else. And a lot of times the problem's gone or the solution's presented itself, and that's the same process we worked on uh getting the cast for this one. And so that that we we had a we had a uh we had the book pretty much in the can like from the get-go, but we didn't have the actual like ritual stuff in archive, and that's where Reinhard came in. And uh Reinhardt Martner, um if you could ever get that guy on, he's he he's he's kind of a keeping to himself kind of person. However, he's like he's got this really dry sense of humor. He's like the wittiest guy you've ever talked to.
SPEAKER_00Sounds like my Dutch relatives, because they're they're all like that.
SPEAKER_01He's he's very dry, but on the other hand, though, he's like he's like like brutally hilarious. I don't know if it's even intentional, but like it's I love him to death. He's the greatest.
SPEAKER_00Well, you can make the introduction and I'll I'll I'll pitch him. I mean, I who's easier to talk to than me? Like I I'm the least judgmental, most most excited to hear what you know whatever somebody else is excited about. That's my whole thing, right? So um no, I'd I'd love to talk to him about, especially about this project, but what but you know, what else he's done. I'm just not familiar with him. Uh at It's all in German. He he's writing all in German. I was much more familiar with Giva. He and I he and I were talking around the time the book came out. And I can't remember how that happened. I just remember that it did happen and that uh my partner and I were on a cruise um that was gonna go right past there and right past Astoria. Or no, it was a we were on a road trip, not a cruise. This was a different different story. We're on a road trip that were and we were gonna stop and see him, um, and then he passed away. And um we could talk more about that later, but it's just one of these things where I didn't know you years ago when the book came out, I knew him, and I remember how excited he was for the project. No, it was it's great. And what it might what it might mean, you know. Um anyway, uh I don't want to interrupt your role. So uh you get you get Reinhardt involved. Does that does that mean now we're headed off to Europe, or does that mean you're gonna get packages of documents showing up in your email?
SPEAKER_01No, no, that's the best part about this. That's the best part about this thing, is I didn't even touch the actual documents until after the book was already in print. Like, but what we worked with, like the uh we the images. So the Schweden Kista has been microfilmed like sometime like in the early like 20th century, right? Microfilm quality is not all that great, but the good news is is that um, you know, you you you you can largely read everything. And if you can read that, now the trick is though, is reading the 18th century German cursive. I think I showed you some examples when I was up there in Vancouver, and it's uh it's a tough hand, man. It's really tough. But like if you if you could if you already know the language and it's just like looking for it, like and just learning new characters is all it is, right? Just like learning how to do something different. And is is that some sort of German or Yeah, it's 18th century current hand is what they call it, like K-U-U-R-R-A-N-T.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And this the Sweden kista, you said.
SPEAKER_01What Sweden kista, or the Swedish chest or Swedish box or Okay.
SPEAKER_00So this is this is where it brushes up against the the Swedish history, does it? Right, right.
SPEAKER_01And then the whole Swedish history is this, right? So it um like Bisop when he goes into exile into 84, he's basically 86 out of the organization. He's pretty ticked off that they throw him out, so he publishes the um uh the improved uh ritual system of the Illuminati, which was a really a reform he was looking to do, but the reform was basically, hey, let's do away with degree names uh and degrees and also meetings, and we're just gonna make this an academic deal. Hey Right.
SPEAKER_00And that's his plan. And his whole idea was to was to create a group of people that were wanted to popularize the separation of church and state. Yep. Right? And then the scientific approach and a rationalist kind of approach that's at least to physical reality, uh if if if not also the spiritual pursuit. But he was much more interested in like making making sort of a rationalist uh uh kind of paradise.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's that's what he's all about, right? So he's like like pure reason, pure rationalism, like Deism to a degree, but he's also got a whole lot of like materialistic undertones in his thinking. And it's because it's because he comes from materialism in the first place, right? That's really his and even he even says so, right? Like he's a materialist until his wife dies, and he's like, Well, I'm never gonna see her again. Well, I guess there's might be something after this.
SPEAKER_00Did did he ever turn to spiritualism to try and reach out to her? Like because that a little too soon for him, I guess.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think I think like because all of his parents died, he was raised by this godfather, the baron by Nickstad, and I uh and by raised, I mean uh left to himself and his uncle's library of banned uh naughty books you're not supposed to read. Oh that sounds wonderful. It's it's a narcissist track, right? Like, so like that's why he's got all this magical thinking that oh, I've got the prescription. If you just follow everything that I tell you to, we can make mankind happy and free. That's magical thinking, right?
SPEAKER_00Of course. So okay, so you're working on these documents now, um, and and you've got the team together. How how does how does the how does the process go? I mean, you guys translate it, how you how do you decide what's in and what's out? And what's important and what's just like not as because you didn't include every single line in this book, right?
SPEAKER_01So there's only there's maybe like five or six documents that didn't make the cut, right? And these are documents that were like published by the Bavarian government. But what we went for was we went for like uh remember last time we were talking about the Urtext, the URT?
SPEAKER_00Yes, and you got me you got me wise to an academic term that I hadn't heard yet. And it that's surprising, but uh all right. So Urtext. And not only have you used it, but other people have used it since Arturo threw it in in his uh Scott's master presentation, and I was like, I know what that means. Yeah I was like, I know that word. Oh, you you dummies in the room don't know what that word is, but I'm like, yes, yes, I'm doing great. Yes, I look at how look at how smart I am. I didn't know it three months ago. That's true. No and no.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so like we're we're after that Urtex is what it is. And so like phase one is um maybe I should adjust my blinds. It looks like I'm getting like I'm about to be like whitened out by the blinds. It's amazing.
SPEAKER_00Your mouth is so lit up, like you've got a flashlight on your face. Yeah, you can go adjust the blinds. All right, give me a second, man. Hang on. That's uh that's perfectly fine. And and if I see fit, I'll edit it out, but maybe I'll keep it in. This is this is kind of nice in the human story we're telling here. It might actually be funnier to leave it in. You're looking a bit like Skeletor, man. Don't do that. With the bright light in your face, it was looking a little crazy. Where were we? So you were talking about, you know, what did cause because the book's big, right?
SPEAKER_01It's a it's a beast, it's 448 pages. It doesn't lie.
SPEAKER_00It's a fat book.
SPEAKER_01And it's and it's it's got a like a super dense like intro in the front of it, too. Like, and it's like just like oozing and dripping with like facts and factoids, and like none of this stuff's published, right? Like every last bit of that thing in that introduction is green, and then you hit the footnotes and it gets greener and it leads you on rabbit trails. Like it, like I don't know like if people are sick like me, and like because for me, like I get lost in footnotes.
SPEAKER_00Like footnotes, the foot look, um, there's several books I have around here where the Footnotes. That's the adventure. Academic occultists are are are famous. Because you're you're I mean you're trying to gr grasp at something often very ephemeral, right? Um and so here I'm just trying to tell you how many pages of footnotes. Um but it's like eight it it's like twelve percent of the book. It's yeah it's like uh quite hard. Yeah, and and it and it and it includes a lot of material.
SPEAKER_01Uh anyway, you were saying so yeah, so like like like full like full circle, like so we're after that Earth text, right? So the Schwedenkista, like it's all the Illuminati correspondence from the north, right? So Bisop goes away in '84, like we talked about. This new guy, uh Johan Joachim Christoflin Boda, he's now uh running the whole show up in the north. And so he's the one who does this Masonic reform later. We can talk about that another time if you like. And that's the one that I it's that new material I'm working on.
SPEAKER_00But Well, we're we're definitely gonna talk about it, but only when you're ready. Maybe at the end of this show you could tease that. Because when is when are you gonna when are you when is that coming out? I've got it all written.
SPEAKER_01That's it's like this, like Troy. I think I have like maybe it's pretty it might be 25 books like that are just sitting in the can. Like I because I'm gonna be I'm gonna be pretty prolific, unfortunately. But the thing is, like when I write them, I I I park them in the garage and I let them collect dust. And the reason why I do it is I've got all this thinking and I've got all this like track, like whatever, and I stop and I I put it on ice and I let it rest. Like if you're like cooking a real expensive piece of meat, like you let it rest on the counter, it's the same thing with these books, and then I reapproach it as a new researcher. Like, and and sometimes I read my own research and I'm like, man, I can't believe I did that. Like, and then but other times I read them, like, man, that guy's an idiot. So it's good that you let things rest because you get that second of perspective and you don't release like uh like immature information, right? You want it to mature, to season, to marinate. And the other thing is, like while you're doing research on other projects, you're making all these connections in the background. So when you touch your work again, you're now smarter and you know more things that you can reconnect to the work or even take side threads.
SPEAKER_00I don't care if you're prolific. It's just uh with the amount of uh AI generated stuff that I'm seeing and having to read this crap, you'll you can tell the difference right off. Well, you you you can. It's different with stuff to popularize, like the social media is different, but with the with the academic reading, it's uh it's a different thing entirely. So no, I I look forward to what you're what you're gonna produce.
SPEAKER_01And you can see like even like the academic stuff, because I've read stuff that's clearly plagiarism, right? Because like we we look at all that stuff that like we get submissions uh for several different journals and stuff that I like help with do editing for. And like you get these submissions and like it's it's it's obvious from the get-go because it sounds like it's like out of the faculty of Berkeley or like you or it has this weird tone about it, right? But the thing is it never makes a point. Like it'll make points, but it never really sticks to it. And all it's really trying to do is make all these flowery language and like adjective salad, and like the other thing is too, there's like there's like there's hidden characters in that text and stuff too. Like, if you look at it as an editor, you turn on like the hide characters and you look at these things, there's marks inside of it that like you can see straight off that it's it's the work of a machine. Wow. Specifically spaces.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Um what were we talking about now?
SPEAKER_01So so you were well, we were talking about like how like the uh rituals in the north were now under control of Boda. And so what ends up happening though is that we're trying to make this Ur text. And so Boda comes in and he's got the the Schweden Kista is the collected correspondence of everything in the north. And so like all the stuff collected in the raids like from the Bavarian government back in like 1786 and uh 87, all that stuff is uh put into Munich, it gets destroyed in World War II, like in bombing raids, right? Not everything. There's a few documents that are left, but the whole collection for the most part, along with most of the buildings launched, right? So we got a couple things, but not a lot. So that's what happens to that material. But the good news is it was published in the expose because so it is on the record. We can use it as material, but like the stuff that was published, it's anonymous, right? So you have to work out who they're actually talking about. But that that's already been done by the historians. And so like the point is largely that um the Schwedenkista itself is the collected stuff in the north and it's Boda's collection, and it's prolific. So it has about 21,000 pages of archival material, something like this. You might be pushing 22,000, but like it's a lot. And so um really a lot of like um the ritual materials are like in volume eight and volume nine of the Schwedenkista. And so uh we're after that er text. A lot of like the sm like the lower degrees, there might be you know six, seven copies inside of there, right? Of that ritual. The top degrees itself, like the top degree uh degree, the uh philosophi degree, there's only one copy, and it's in and funny enough, it's in a it's in the hand of a royal. So he we know we know he read it at least. Um, but then like the next degree down, the Dositish degree, there's two copies of it. And so like the it's like it's it's like this like the lower degrees, there's a ton of copies, but the top degrees, there's only just like a handful of them, right? And so looking at the UR text, first we compared what was printed versus what's in the rituals, right? Lower degrees, there's not a lot of confusion. The regent degree, funny enough, um what was printed, I'm not sure where this source comes from because it's quite a bit at odds, right? Like it's must be like it's some kind of an early draft form of the ritual because the later form, like the one that was actually like converted and sent out to be converled, like it's a later, more developed form. So like when you read the regent degree in our book, you're actually looking at a more developed form of that ritual um than what was uh printed by the Bavarian government. But the main thing is, is like it's the uh, for me, it's the symbolic degrees in there. That's the new material because it whether you're a German or you're an English speaker, like it that's the new material. Is that is that symbolic degree material? And it leads into another project I've been working on uh for the eclectic right. And so it turns out that symbolic degree from 81 is the uh literally the foundation of what becomes the eclectic right. And that's the vehicle for the Illuminati taking over. And so really like the Illuminati conspiracy theory isn't a political one as much as it is a Masonic one, and they're trying, but but it actually might be a political one in the sense that these guys largely are all in the institutions of power, right? So it's they're they're using like the vehicle of Freemasonry to accomplish objectives, but not like an overt political objective. They're maneuvering in the Masonic space, and that's what they're doing. And so that's that's that's to me like why I think like the uh symbolic degrees are really important because it opened the door to later uh going to Zreininkite and looking at the actual eclectic rite ritual from 1784. And so it's uh thing from Zreinekite and Vetzlar that come together and they say uh so it's literally uh that 1781 uh symbolic degree, Knigga puts that thing together in 16 days, right? And so you're like, well, how do you invent uh Troy? If I was saying, can you invent a system in 16 days? How would you do it?
SPEAKER_00Um no. Well but what would you do? Like if they if you had to do it really worked. Nailed it. Nailed it. And there's that how many like nailed it. We it a lot of us collect ritual ciphers, right? And how many systems are out there? Uh I mean, you just don't know who's working them. Right. The A the AMD's been grabbing and you know, trying to bring the heel as many as possible. Now we have it, nobody else can do it. But you you can't do it with everything, right?
SPEAKER_01That's right, I mean. But so so that's exactly what he did. He grabbed the original ritual that um because remember Zarainekite was a was an English provincial Grand Lodge, right?
SPEAKER_00I don't know what that is. Can you tell us what that is?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the Lodge Zereinikite, the Unity Lodge in Frankfurt, it's in 1742. If you go back to the premier Grand Lodge of England, it's a provincial Grand Lodge operating in Germany, right? So he's he's the provincial Grand Lodge for Germany. Uh the Grand Lodge of the Three Globes, it's independent of the Grand Lodge itself altogether, right? And so largely the ritual they worked was something from exposes, is my guess, because there's no four they but it's also um you know Frederick the Great. So when you're the king, it's good to be the king. And so you just start the lodge, I guess.
SPEAKER_00It's so so what does that look like? Does it look like English emulation work, or is that before that? It's before before that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Emulation is 18 uh 16.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01And so this is this is the original modern ritual that we're working. And so that's the Easter egg. This is like if you want to know what English modern ritual looked like, go read the Secret School of Wisdom. Interesting. Okay. So that's what he did. He went back, and I've I've got the uh the rituals also in uh the Zarina Kyder Unity Lodge's archives. Um it's uh this copy is from 1761. So it was the system they were working right before um they kind of dabbled around with the strict observance, although they really never worked the strict observance system, right? But they were kind of doing their own thing. Point is, is that like in that original ritual, it's all been translated to German, but like when you look through the rituals, there's literally words in French that's not in the curant hand, it's in French around hand, right? So they're using like lodge words for like lodge positions and things like that. Or uh like the they'll talk about uh like the carpet and they'll say the tapis, or they'll say something like this. They'll have like all these, not the tableau though, but they'll have like other words like that are like straight out of French rituals. So if you know, if you know your rituals, you know what you're looking at here. So even though they're in uh they're working from a French translation. And then funny enough, I found um uh the the Lodge of Reconciliation ritual, same process looking through this Rinachide stuff. Turns out the Premier Grand Lodge sent them plain text rituals of the Lodge of Reconciliation ritual. So this ritual that people have been after, it turns out they just they sent out uh plain English, no cipher, no encoding to the German provincial Grand Lodge so they could translate it into German. Wow. All you gotta do is find the copy.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Well, then it should be lossless, right? It should be. So you get it creates always in the in the deciphering, you're right. Yeah, you you get you get word variation, and that from place to place or lodge to lodge creates differences. Now, that that not that I have a problem with differences, but like even like in the same way. When you're trying to study stuff and trying to find as you're talking about the Urtext, you're trying to find where this stuff's coming from, once you get multiple variations, it can be harder, right? Things drift quite a ways.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's even like in like even like in the theory like of like signals intelligence, right? Like a lot of people think it has to be a one-to-one lossless 100% fidelity. All it has to be is 51. That's all you gotta have. That's all you gotta have. And you don't have to have the whole message. It's kind of like if you went and took like a black Sharpie marker and you close your eyes and you just started marking on the page, right? You would lose a lot of words, but you could probably still figure out what you were reading, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Same thing, exact same thing. So like all the like the things that are decrypted or enciphered, and so a lot of times translated too, because a lot of times, like you'll be working through words, you're like, what the hell is this word? It's not in any dictionary. And you know what uh well, we found it like in the Illuminati stuff too, where like you would have these words, um, like they're Latinized like forms of like German spellings. And so like they look weird at first, but then you look at them like, okay, if I sub K per C and this uh consonant pair for that one, I can make it look correct. And that's or or I take the the phonetical spelling out or put the umlaut in, I get the modern word. And so there's a lot of this because it's 18th century German. So like that's the other thing about this is like there's there's a lot of obstacles on this project because one, you've got like the archival accessibility issue. So Reinhardt was plugged in and was already working with the Schwedenkist, um, more importantly, working from the microfilms, right? So that opens up the project where we can all work to we can all get this work done and we can all like and work together. And so the the that's the hardest part of the project to solve. And so that was ameliorated. But then you get other issues like where it's like, I don't know what these words are, or it means this literally, but what is the sense of it? What does it actually mean? And so then there you get like all these issues of translation. And so what we did was like when you want to solve a large project, you break it down into small bytes and you make like slow, gradual, relentless, and non or you know, in you know, ceasingless like progress to accomplishing it. And that's what we did. And so like every day we're working on this thing. We're and we it it took from like 2010 to like 2015. So it took five years. I was just about to ask.
SPEAKER_00I was just about to ask what's what is the what does the timeline look like?
SPEAKER_01It's a it's a five-year commit, right? So like when Reinhard comes on board um in 2011, um, so he comes in like one year into like me just working off that list and a and you know, kicking its face in, getting all the books, all that kind of stuff, and then bringing Jiva in like late, like 2010. Um, so from that point, from 2010 all the way to 2015, it's a relentless grind. And people don't understand it because I'm a I'm a you know, I'm a professional consulting engineer too. Um the hours that I work, like I don't know if it's pretty quickly. I'm like a kind of a 70-hour a week guy, like, and I don't really take days off or vacations or breaks. And so like the commit level to this like um was like working myself like sick at work, being a family man, putting the wife and kids to bed, and then working, you know, sometime every night between like 10 p.m. to 2 a.m. every night, no breaks, no time off, no getting tired, no quitting, no throwing in the towel, no, you know, full commit. And that's that's what that's what it took to get this thing done. So like it was it was a heck of a lift, man. Like it's so it took like serious like discipline and commitment, but it's worth it though, because now we know everything the system has in it, and also that it was like all the all the uh fun, exciting, like horrible things they were all about. I didn't find any of them, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_00So so yeah, so talk a bit about that. Um I mean was it the was it the little thing that drives you like discuss you be working on it and you'd be like, oh, I I recognize what he's driving at here because I've seen it somewhere else? Or was it uh I have no idea, and you need the that the three of you guys had to bang your heads together to get to figure out what they were driving at. Or did you already kind of know and you were working working backwards in the translation from what you thought they were driving at?
SPEAKER_01I I the the the the main takeaway, like and it was obvious, like even like before I had access to any of this stuff, it was obvious to me that they were after deism, right? So it's like I was like, I see like I can be suss at all the conspiracy stuff and you throw the nonsense out the window, but you also throw the apologetic stuff out the window. And you start sussing it out, you know, like you got two ends of like the spectrum here, like that, the truth's probably somewhere into here. And when you throw out the noise, you're like, okay, it's probably a people's republic and it's probably a people's uh uh religion. That's what they're after. They're after a political reform and a religious reform. And in the context of it, it makes sense because in the 18th century Germany, it's not a unified state. Uh places in the north are free states that are Protestant, places in the South are uh heavily under the influence of the church, they're Catholic states. And then you've also got, you know, a few free states put in there. But the point is that Germany is not a unified country, right? It's a collection of places that you know have like a agreement under of common defense, right? That's it. That's all they're doing. And so knowing all of that stuff, like it makes sense that this system uh would come from all those things, right? And so like it's all like maybe is it confirmation bias? I don't know, but like just the way that all this like information like came together, like it was already apparent from the very beginning that it was a people's republic and a people's religion they were after. And so it but that's just the way I read it. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00But so is there it because I w I want to really delve into what you think they were after because I think it's more telling now than it was 11 years ago when you published it. Uh for my own deist positivist rationalist ideas. So uh are you how so you did with the history of it, did did did you tell enough? Is so you're you're not important. Yeah, so I mean, why don't you wanna you wanna hit the the like the the the the big the big parts that maybe you you might have glossed over just now or is there more of that you want to tell before we start talking about like what happens after the Illuminati kind of they fold up shop and then how do they become this this mythology? Now, again, this is good that isn't your area of study, this is the thing like what Wes Regan is into with uh could conspiracism and whatnot. But I'd I'd like to get your ideas on it. Anyway, uh let's yeah, no, I I do want to I do want to hear about that, but before we get to that, let's let's if you if there's more on the history of how this how this how how you guys writing it came together, I I want I want to hear it. I want to put put it on the record. Sure. And so even if my listeners have to fast forward 30 minutes to get to the good stuff, I I want to put it on the record.
SPEAKER_01I'll I'll tell you something on this one. I never told anyone before. How about that?
SPEAKER_00Okay, good. Yeah, no, let's have that.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So we we get to the end and um we're all happy with it. And then uh Reinhard sits on the manuscript. And he's sitting on the manuscript and sitting on the manuscript. And then we also bring in our friend Paul Ferguson uh because I wanted a second professional translator to look at this material. It's too important just to take it at face value. And he made a lot of useful like suggestions and additions. And so that's what I'm saying. Like when you read that text like that, that's about as clean as you can get on the translation. Like, because we got two professional translators that looked at. Um, but but the point is is that um he keeps sitting on it and sitting on it and sitting on it. And then so Jeep is like going nuts and he was like, Is Reinhardt said anything? What's going on here? And I said, give the man patience, give him space, like hey, this is how he works. And so he just kept doing his thing, doing his thing. And then like uh one night out of nowhere pam, okay, okay, Joe, we're here, we're ready to move forward. And then it's literally back to slave driving while I'm in like the like the heat of the battle, like on this big project at work. But fine, okay, I I commit to it. And we get into it, and um, we submit the manuscript to Lewis. Um, we get the copy back, and we're not impressed with the typesetting. Not by a lot. And right, Reinhardt's ready to throw the talent, says, Oh, this project's lost, it's done, oh, we picked the wrong publisher. Yeah. Whoops. Well, no, that's what that this is what he thinks, right? And what it was is like Lewis, like they had a person like who was on the way out the door, and um, and they they they give it not the best effort. I can but Reinhardt was being overly picky too. And so, like, to save the project, I was like, hey, academics, right? Academics are used to a certain self-sabotage.
SPEAKER_00That's okay. Yeah, and that too. And yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's what we do, I'm sorry. Well, I'm not even an academic, I'm an amateur, but I definitely self-sabotage.
SPEAKER_00So right. No, I I get it. And but in any case, doesn't the infra doesn't the information being published matter more than how it looks when it goes? Like, I mean, I I understand, right? But even still, it's the typesetting could be done again, right?
SPEAKER_01Yep. So like basically, like um we're like fourth and 20, and we have to go for the touchdown pass, and the the quarterback's ready to quit throwing the ball, right? So it's like I have to make an executive decision here. So I tell a tiny little fib, and I say, Well, actually I know InDesign, so why don't you let me do the type setting and this, that, and other. But I'm I am a software, like I like there's a couple things I do well. Like this research is one of them, the other one is like engineering and anything with computers. So I I I did, I taught myself InDesign. Like, I on the block. Yeah, and if you look at it, go look at that book. It's a beautiful, beautiful, artful, like nobody would have ever put that much effort into layout. But like if you look at it, like, and the thing was is like here's where it gets wild. Um uh here's uh another thing I've never told anyone too. So like we're editing this book. Um it comes out I think like in February. Lewis is looking for it like in November, and I keep getting all these messages, saying are we done with the text yet? Are we done with the text? And so I'd send them like little bootlegs here and there, but Reinhard kept making edits. We made Troy, I kid you not, from like maybe the first of December all the way up to like December the 23rd. Like we We made I think it had to be like five or six hundred edits like in that amount of days. And what sort of edits? Like hideous edits. Hideous. Joe, there's a widow on this page. Um we need to bring the paragraph style back to this page like that. And so like if you look at it for widows and orphans in that book, you can't get any cleaner than that.
SPEAKER_00What what do you what do you mean, widows and orphans?
SPEAKER_01Well, if you have a paragraph, right? Like so say I give a paragraph, it's five lines on the page, right? Um a widow would be like you've got four lines with the last bit of the page, and then like one like little uh one little uh no, that's an orphan, sorry. A widow is the first line and another four lines on the next page. An orphan is the four lines on the one page and the one on the other.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Now And so like if you looked at that book, widows and orphans, tight as hell. The other thing is like if you look at like the footnotes on On it too. Like a lot of times on footnotes, like you only get like a single column in a lot of places because like he was he was like literally trying to be as efficient as possible and waste no pages. So there's like very little white space in the layout of that book. And so like we even did like double column footnotes, which technically aren't possible in InDesign. But I made a I made a a uh a Python script that wrote that made lots of all that wow. Wow. That's what I'm saying. Like it's like it's things like that. I never tell these little details, but like um the point is, is that's how much we love this book, that's how much care went into this book to make it the not only like the most accurate academically, also the Urtext, but also just you know, dead sexy as I can make it. And that's that's that's what we're after, man.
SPEAKER_00Now looking back on it, one could say these guys were trying to dispel the myth, the modern myth of the Illuminati.
SPEAKER_01Or the apologists.
SPEAKER_00Right? And uh as an as an Illuminist myself, it's like you understand, because the the most of the people who want to talk to talk about what the Illuminati were up to have no idea what the Illuminati were really up to. Right. And and that they just they just b buy whatever whatever Catholic propaganda was put out at the time, hook line and sinker, and then they take it and run with it. Right? Um and and now it's Catholic alarmism with with demons and um uh uh uh exorcisms and everything else. Oh, you're talking about that uh Sean Ryan podcast. Yeah. Like people who have different ideas than uh people who are reaching for power right now need to be afraid because there's a reason freedom of conscience exists. Because all of this is completely subjective anyway. Why why are we even like serious, rational people would never engage with any of that? Right? And you don't know how many friends I've had come out of the woodwork and been like, they've gone down the rabbit hole since the pandemic. And they're like, man, I'm really worried about what you're involved in. It's like what I'm involved in. What what have you been listening to? What kind of Russian PsyOps propaganda supported bullshit are you listening to? You more than a big thing. How deep the bunker is in your backyard. How many automatic weapons are we up to now? Look, it's you know how I feel about you wanna call you wanna collect you wanna collect weapons. That's not it's not the weapons. But you know what? It's not the weapons that are the problem. It's it's the it's the thought process that wanna wants to whip other people into a froth about this. So so let's you guys publish this book. I don't know if that was the goal. I I have a good idea that you know that might have been what Jiva was up to. I don't know where I get that idea. Maybe it was part of our text conversation. I still have it on. No, Jiva was up, Jiva was up to this.
SPEAKER_01He was one, he's like, he's like, finally, we're gonna prove it was all true.
SPEAKER_00That's yeah, all all true, but not not that they're to overturn um uh it any other theocracy and establish a global government. It's they wanted to establish a rationalist deist um uh fr that uh society that where where freedom to practice whatever spiritual craziness you are up to is protected and that the rest of us should deal with each other on a rationalist, positivist, scientific basis, right? The scient the idea of scientific illuminism, really. And and if you want to believe it's a conspiracy, right?
SPEAKER_01Like, you know, like two out of three of the uh original publishers that ritual is still standing. So like there should be like zero out of three. Like if there's really like an illuminating conspiracy theory, the fact that we did the ritual system, right, and hacked the system, right? Like that, like that, that shouldn't be and it wouldn't even a hack, right? It's an academic book. That's all it is, is like examining it's a source text of what these guys actually believe. We've heard all the crap on TV, we've heard the crap on the internet. What the hell do these guys actually believe? And that's what this book is for me.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you you you're just not a high enough degree yet, Joseph, to understand it.
SPEAKER_01I'm a porch mason. I need to go back and stop sucking my thumb and sit in the corner and wait for Daddy to tell me how to be a Mason.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, from somebody who's never had a single craft degree. Um, seriously, though, like so you you guys published this, and um, like I don't think it ever got the attention it deserved. Historically, it's gonna be one of these books that is re referenced, right, in in at the internet. The the AI agent I engaged with today to do some research about it already seems to think that it's here's just move the needle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, here's the here's the apologists that started this. And then we started back with a with a documentary was like the one-two punch, right? And I thought, I thought for sure I was like, I was like, okay, I was like thinking the whole time, I was like, this book's really gonna make an impact. Okay, I hit Mike Tyson in the face and he's still standing there. It's like, well, now what? I was like, I'm gonna hit him with the left hand with the documentary. Sure. And now he's still standing, and I'm like, well, I guess I'm about to get my ass kicked in.
SPEAKER_00But really, you know, uh, if you if you bring it up to hardcore conspiracists, they're just like, well, you know, that's just a uh apologetics. That's all that's all so look, you don't cloud the issue with facts. It gets in the way of a good story, and and I can't be convinced, and not only that, but but the vast majority of people on that side of the argument aren't interested in the facts. They're interested in alarmism and demonizing other people.
SPEAKER_01And the thing is, like the where they're approaching it from like that, you know, are is there like a a massination towards global government? Well, maybe so. Like it looks that way. There's there's there's evidence for it, but does it is it good, is it bad, is it benevolent, is it indifferent, is it uh communist, is it fascist? But the thing is, like it's it's us, right? Like it's it's us. Like it's the quality of whatever we put into it. And so like just don't go white thing fascist or communist and we're good.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Again, it's it's it it's this, it's the third way, it's the middle way, it's the finding our own way from a rationalist humanist perspective, at least. And and you know, you know what, there's lots of people of different spiritual traditions that would be like, oh, you gotta reject all that, because only my version of biblical literalism or new apostolic religion matters. Everything else is all bullshit. Besides the world's ending in a few days, so you should probably sell your things. You know, I I I I wish people who believe that would would take it more literally, though I just said to my wife the other day, God forbid I ever get diagnosed with a terminal disease. That's all I'm gonna say about that. I hope it's a very short list then. You're not on a list. I've got I haven't made a list. But maybe maybe one day I need to make a list. You might think to it when you're facing mortality. That's probably not the Masonic lesson we were trying to teach the book. Right. I've been given I've been given some other ways to think about it. But then again, you just you look around and you're like, man, I don't know. Uh look, uh can you talk some more about that? I mean, we've been we've been very uh yee-haw kind of tug-in-cheek over here. But seriously, um, you know, it it wasn't taken up by the other arg other side of the argument, really, to make further argument. And and I, you know, I I want to believe the AI agent that told me today that we're seeing less of a global, grand global conspiracy theory using Illuminists or uh the Illuminati as as the target problem. Do you do you believe that?
SPEAKER_01I think it did. I think it made it, and then this is the thing is like I don't need a medal, I don't need anyone to recognize that I did this, that, and the other, like that. I don't even know that I'm 100% responsible, right? But I know putting that book and that movie out there definitely made an impact. What it is, I couldn't tell you. But what I do see is a lot less of it. I keep making the and I've I've I've done like you know conspiracy interviews on conspiracy radio shows too, because I'm a pretty open, like honest guy. Um and I talked to him about this stuff, and I said, the problem with the Illuminati conspiracy theory is this if there's a grand globalist conspiracy running above this, I don't see any of these rich dudes in lodges, right? I'll tell you that right now. These guys are not there. There's a couple of rich people here, might even be like a low-level politician, no congressmen or senators or anything higher than that in there. And these are the people that are doing the stuff, right? So it already does like the Mason doesn't operate in that way. But the point is, though, is that like if you're looking for all these grand conspiracies and stuff, and I'm like running this globalist world government to depopulate the earth and whatever other massations you might want to throw into that ticket. The last thing I want you doing of looking at me, I want you looking at the Illuminati these talks from 250 years ago and running around like the dog on the rug chasing your tail until you get tired and lay down and get up and do it some more. Like, this is what I want you to do. And I was like, so like if you're really like if you're if there really is a conspiracy, this is exactly what they want you to do, is to go look at this thing. I've tried telling these guys this stuff, and I don't know if it's ever uh took them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was just saying to somebody today, you know, the only the only change you can affect is in yourself first. That's it. You know, and and and the the the message that Masonry is teaching is really, you know, stop pointing the finger and and consider what it is that you can do. What power do you have? And what can you do within yourself? Um you know, what are you doing with the talents you are given uh there uh uh uh monotheist? You know, uh look go look at your own holy book, take some time to study it, maybe maybe read some other opinions, you know. Um I I don't know. It the the the the state of the world is is despairable when I see so many people taking uh uh taking the alarmist pills, you know, and and swallowing it whole, you know.
SPEAKER_01Is it the death of like intellectualism and the and it's you can tell because like or the demon the demonization of people who want to be better?
SPEAKER_00It could be it could be blind the idea of blind faith. Like don't try and better yourself. Just swallow, just swallow whole whatever it is they're feeding you. Like come on.
SPEAKER_01I go we want to we want to kin ourselves and say it could be idiocracy, like you know, like um did you ever see that movie?
SPEAKER_00Yes, and and it was it wasn't supposed to be a prophetic, but it turned it turned out to be quite right on the nose.
SPEAKER_01Especially the crocs though, like nobody could have seen that coming.
SPEAKER_00No. No, but you still won't see me wearing crocs. Oh no, I will not wear a plastic shoe. Certainly not in public. Not at home. No, let's get the ones out. Well, I have sandals on right now and I'm at home in my own library, but I was just out with the grandkids earlier, so I have a reason. But you know um look, this has been this has been great. Um d anything else that you wanted to talk about around this book that we haven't talked about. We did you know we we were talking about it before I turned on the mic. Um I never got to meet Jiva because he he he died by his own hand right before we were set to meet. And um it makes me sad because um he and I were having amazing chats via the I've still got them. And the last chat was with somebody who responded as his partner who said he he he passed away. He's always struggled with uh with depression, and he passed away. I think that was like have you have you ever gone on the record with a comment about that at all?
SPEAKER_01I've never even talked about it before, but like I think I I was the last person I think to talk to him, like maybe a couple hours before. Um he was in a bad place, right? Like, and so he he was uh he had dealt with uh an issue very similar to this a couple times before, uh, and generally like had like you know bouts of depression, right? Like wonderful person, like you know, heart as pure as gold, kind, but he also had like you know internal issues, right? Like he's he had like the internal things going on, and um yeah, it's it's unfortunate too because it threw me like for a loop because here like I I had uh you know, I just finished up uh work. I was driving home talking to the guy like that, and like he said something that kind of threw me off like that. I was like, hey man, are you okay? And he's like, Oh yeah, I'm fine. I just got in this and the other, you know, kind of like he just made some kind of off comment like that. And I was like, that's unusually dark. So what's going on here, man? And um it was it was it was pretty saging, is what it was, unfortunately. Um I'm not sure like that there's like anything else I can really like say about it. It's just like he I lost a good friend, right? Like he's a good man, he's a good friend, he's got a kind heart and an extremely talented individual. His wife was kind enough to send me like um the contents of his hard drive. And so like I've got everything that he had in the can. Um we we did him a solid too um on materialism and idealism. He had uh he did about like three-quarters of that book, and then we brought uh Paul Ferguson, who I mentioned uh from earlier. We brought him in to like kind of finish the back half of that book so it was all professional. And then um we we did all the rest of like Vicehops books from Ultimate Nurbal Editions, because that was the original project. Jeeva's supposed to be doing all of the Vicehop books, all the Bicehop translations, but because Jeeva was gone, we're like, well, look, we got to honor our buddy here and do him a solid. And so the project lived on. And so that's the thing is like what Jeev and I were always trying to build was like this uh this thing where it's like you've heard the Illuminati conspiracy theories, you've heard all these things like that, but it um you don't speak 18th century German or have a lot of money and access to rare books, you're really not gonna get this information, right? And so what we wanted to do that the like if we look at what the problem was overall of the conspiracy and all this stuff like that, it's accessibility of information. And so that's what we were trying to do. That's what the secret school wisdom was was an attempt to give like, and not to tell the reader what to think, it's like here, go read exactly in their own words what the ritual system was. It's the same thing with these Vice Hop translations. I'm not a part of like the multiple mineral editions anymore, like that. I had to uh uh cut ways with those guys. Nothing, nothing personal. I wish them the best and they're good people. Um they've got, if you want to read it now, uh the improved system of the Illuminati, we mentioned it earlier. You can get a copy of it online. And it's fascinating because what you'll read about in there is Bishop's reform plan, which did exist in 1784. Um, but you know, it was largely like apologetics. I mean, it because he was the first degree existed, and then the other seven that he wrote after the fact, I'm pretty sure those were done while he was in exile. Because I don't see any record for him anywhere else. Uh but the point is like it's an interesting book if you want to understand that system more. Um really the Illuminati had three reform attempts. That's one of the reform attempts. Um, and we can do another talk about this sometime. But the the last reform attempt I'm working on is that guy, uh Boda. Um so what he ended up doing was is he wanted to he went to Dilhelm's bot. He doesn't like the CBCS, um, but he was still doing the eclectic right thing. The eclectic right uh cuts ways of the Illuminati in 1789 and specifically cuts his lodge off. And so he's kind of floating. Um he had this uh attempt to bring the Illuminati, he goes in Paris in 1787 and goes to the guys who were later like the core of the Grand Orient um to try to like bring them into the Illuminati system. It fails. And it fails by a vote, right? Like he they actually bring it up in the records that we're gonna do this reform he wants, but it it doesn't pay. And so that's that. But so it was it would he was really that close. So like the conspiracy theorists were actually about that almost that right about it.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Well, it was good of you to to publish uh Jiva's work posthumously. Um I don't wanna I don't wanna beleaguer this, but uh looking back, I I uh should should people check on their friends who are sad? 100% and and if there's any doubt, just intervene. And again, you know, I I'm quite open about my interest in Thelema. And every star has its own right to come and go as it will. But if you're if you're not mentally there, you know, taking your own life is a loss. It's a loss to the rest of us. And uh if you're if you're thinking about that right now as you're listening to us, please, please reach out to your closest friend and tell them that and get yourself some help.
SPEAKER_01The good news is though, and I still see Jeeva all the time, though. Like when he passed away, it was October the 13th. And um I was like just flabbergasted. I was like, what the heck? So like immediately I went and uh uh got a beer and do what uh all good uh Christian men do uh when they have a problem and had one of those. And then I went out back to uh do what other men like to do in the backyard when they're not, and I took a look up at the sky and there was Orion, like inverted standing on his head, the uh moon somewhere about like two o'clock of Orion. And I was like, all right, buddy, there you are. And then so I see Jiva every year uh as when Orion comes up, and every year I always think of him. So that that it just it popped in my head that one moment like then, and so I kind of stuck to it. And so like I never really lost a friend, I just don't get to see him as often.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Um I think that's a good place for us to wind up in this case. And uh I'll put um I'll put a suicide helpline number in the show notes. Um uh Joe, um have you got we we talked about having you at the at the um esotericism and Freemasonry conference. I I think you'll be here this year, if not this year for sure, next year. Um but we're gonna do what we can to get you there. Um not that your work is necessarily esoteric in the way that those of us at the the EFC would think about it, but it's so probative into systems of esotericism, right? Especially overtly Masonic esotericism. Uh the way you delve into the history of the different rights that have evolved. Um you want to talk about any of the upcoming work that you're gonna do without tipping your hand too much?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like I just uh ripped off right now uh for Cornerstone books. I and this one I'll I'll make zero dollars on it. I did this just as like an academic thing, and you'll see why when you read it. Uh they did the Bonsignora rituals about like 2008, I think is when it was published. A lot was wrong with that book, including I didn't like the translation, and I really didn't like the introduction because it wasn't very good. Um so I talked to uh I talked to Brother Paul about this, and uh we worked out, and so I ended up doing a full retranslation of Bonsignora rituals and writing the introduction I wish it would have had. Um so that thing's coming out. I don't make any money on that deal, and that's fine. Like I just wanted to do it.
SPEAKER_00Wow, it bothered me. And what's the history of that particular ritual system?
SPEAKER_01Well, that's what the that's the new exciting information about it. So um uh have you ever heard of a Fronchie Freemasonry at all? No. So it's it's the freed people, right? So slaves, right? So people that have been emancipated, some kind of like former slave status. It's the story of these people's Masonic experience in San Domingue from 1785 to like 1798-ish, thereabouts.
SPEAKER_00I overheard you talking about it when you were here. You weren't talking to me about it, you were talking to somebody else about it. Yeah, I was I was side talking.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01But no one's ever done anything on this, and like uh especially for like for for like African American Freemasonry or like or just Freemasonry in general, right? Like, it's super important because even before Prince Hull, right? So like these guys are like working a fulmasonic system, they're like formerly enslaved people, or in a lot of cases, they're like Milano land and slave owners in Sandomang, right? So like these people, like that's who these Bonseneurs are, and nobody ever realized who they were and what like what it was. And so like what we're dealing with is like the first, like the first expression that I can find of like African American like Freemasonry, um, and it's being worked over there, and that's what this collection really is, is their rituals. Wow. But it's also got some interesting pieces in it too, because the archive they copied it from, um, the Scott's master degree that's inside this, it's the only text I know of that has it shows all three like sequences, like the the beginning, the intermediate, and the final form of it. And so it's got that other special feature about it, too.
SPEAKER_00That's cool. Uh, I talked to Dr. David Harrison on the podcast a few weeks ago. Uh-huh. And he's published all the Wilmshurst material, and he's got a book that he he wrote five essays on Wilmshurst, and he released that. There's a new Wilmshurst focused publisher in northern England somewhere. Anyway, I'll be getting copies of that stuff. Let me know if you like it. I want to hear about it. If you're interested in Seeing it. I'm rereading the meaning of masonry right now. And that was brother Brother Ike Baker started to talk about it. And I'm not sure which one of his influencers turned him onto it, or if it's just because the Lodge of Living Stones is going to be a hundred years this year or next year. Right? So it's Wellb's verse is going to get all sorts of attention. Uh especially in the circles that we like to run in. Um so uh anyway, uh as soon as I get that, if it's any good, I'll I'll make sure to loop you in and and you can order yourself, or I can make sure to get the copy. Alright. Um, and then hopefully we'll see you at EFC 2026 in Seattle, Washington, along with Law Decat Ike Baker.
SPEAKER_01What if you want to do something? You may do something like awesome for that one.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I would that's exactly we don't want you to do something that we want something full on awesome. And and not only that, but the most controversial or or upsetting material that you could present. Yes, we would love to. Yes. And if if you want me to put a degree team together, we can work it. Not officially.
SPEAKER_01And also $45,000.
SPEAKER_00I I I know look, uh, figured out $45,000 and an automatic alchemy left. I've got some experience with the electric magicum, and that's all I'm gonna say about that.
SPEAKER_01Have you made Electrum? Not like this Electrum, this is really expensive electrum.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and real electrum usually contains lead, and that's a problem for people like wearing it or handling it. The R eventually with proper lab handling procedures. But but the in a vent hood. Yes, there's there's ways that Electrum is not completely completely out of fashion. How about that? Is the way I think I know several traditions. Whether it's authentic to what the alchemists were doing when they didn't know that these things would kill them.
SPEAKER_01The golden rosy cross making a small fortune out of a large one.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. Well, I often joke that that's the best way to do that in the in the in the modern world is to is to start a publishing company. Right? Crowley learned that it's the best way to make a large fortune into a small fortune is to like start publishing books for sale. Uh you'll be broken. Nobody makes nobody makes money with it. All right. Um thanks, uh, brother Joseph Wages. Um uh this was this was fantastic. And uh we will have you back if if if you do end up confirming for EFC uh 2026, which I I hope you do. We it it it will hopefully be between now and when the show releases, and I'm gonna have it all over the interview. Thanks for listening today. You could support the show by liking, sharing, and subscribing on your favorite podcast indicator. Even more helpful, leave us a review. We are looking to create a directory of Freemasonic events and publications. If you are aware of something coming up, please let me know by email. In the meantime, check out the Masonic Conferences website at Masonic Conferences.com. Esotericism and Freemasonry Conference will be held on Saturday, September 19th. Our keynote speaker will be Lon Milo Duquette, author of The Tarot Architect. Brother Ike Baker and Brother Doug Russell will also be in attendance. Get your tickets in advance by RSVP to esotericmasonry at gmail.com. For other events, check out our calendar at Mystictie.com. And don't forget to sign up for our newsletter while you are there. Graphics and web hosting are by arts of creative. A special thanks to organists for our theme music. Happy to meet Sorry to Park. And happy to meet again.