The Mystic Tye

“Elias Ashmole, Initiation, and Freemasonry” w/ Bro. Richard Harris Throwback Episode

• Troy Spreeuw • Episode 41

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"Elias Ashmole, Initiation, and Freemasonry" with Bro. Richard Harris (Throwback Episode)

Recorded in support of the Esotericism in Freemasonry Conference 2022, this throwback episode features Grand Lodge of Washington State brother Richard Harris in conversation with Troy about his conference presentation on Elias Ashmole, initiation, alchemy, and Freemasonry.

Please forgive the minor audio issues and edits. Enjoy.

Bro. Richard Harris is a member of Esoterica Lodge No. 316 in Seattle, a serious student of alchemical and Hermetic history, a licensed therapist, and an avid collector of ancient coins. He studied at the Sophia Centre for the Study of Cosmology in Culture in Wales, focusing on cultural astronomy, archaeoastronomy, and the history of astrology.

In this episode, Richard and Troy explore:

  • Who Elias Ashmole actually was, and why Richard calls him "Superman"
  • Theatrum Chemicum Britannicum and its place as the most important English-language alchemical anthology
  • The relationship between alchemy, Rosicrucianism, and early operative and speculative Masonry
  • How Ashmole's royalism, legal career, and obsessive collecting all tied together
  • Isaac Newton's debt to Ashmole and the Theatrum, and what Newton was really obsessing over
  • The cross-currents between the alchemists, poets, and spy networks of 16th- and 17th-century England
  • John Dee, Edward Kelley, and the Enochian system that Ashmole helped preserve
  • The checkerboard floor and why Richard believes it is one of the most misunderstood symbols in Masonic and Western history
  • Tobias Churton's biography Magus of Freemasonry as an entry point to Ashmole
  • Richard's personal journey from Roman Catholicism to evangelical theology, Jungian psychology, Chinese medicine, and finally Masonry
  • Troy's own path into the Craft, from teenage conspiracy theory rabbit holes and the Satanic Panic through Israel Regardie and Aleister Crowley to Thelema

Books and figures mentioned in this episode:

  • Theatrum Chemicum Britannicum by Elias Ashmole
  • The Order of the Garter by Elias Ashmole
  • Magus of Freemasonry by Tobias Churton
  • Israel Regardie, The Garden of Pomegranates and The Golden Dawn
  • Aleister Crowley, The Book of Lies
  • John Dee and Edward Kelley (Enochian system)
  • Francis Bacon, The New Atlantis
  • Philip Sidney, Edmund Spenser, Christopher Marlowe, John Milton
  • Nick Campion, Sophia Centre for the Study of Cosmology in Culture
  • John Belanger (bookseller and Masonic contact)
  • Bro. John Gerardi (Masonic scholar and research partner)
  • William Kissel's Esoteric Book Conference

Happy to meet, sorry to part, happy to meet again.

Links and resources


Support the show

If this episode resonated with you, the most helpful thing you can do is leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. We are also building a directory of Freemasonic events and publications. If you know of something coming up, send Troy an email at troy@mystictye.com.

Graphics and web hosting by Art Szabo Creative. Theme music by Organist.

Happy to meet, sorry to part, happy to meet again.



SPEAKER_00

Talking about these presentations. Elias backmole, initiation, alchemy, and freemasonry. Please forgive the minor audio issues and edit. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_01

Well, thanks for being here today with me. Richard, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast and uh volunteering to speak at the Esotericism and Freemasonry Conference 2022. Now, uh, why don't you go ahead and and outline a little bit of what you're going to be talking about in October?

SPEAKER_03

Sure. Well, uh, first of all, thanks, Troy, for uh for having me and and uh chatting with me. Essentially, what I'd like to do is just talk a little bit about Elias Ashewell, about the process of initiation, and take a look at one of Asheville's great works, The Theatrum Chemicum Britannicum, and take a look at what he has, or rather, what he's collected about initiation, particularly with his illustrations that he has in there, and see if there's any connections between alchemy and masonry, particularly in the Masonics. I came into uh Masonry because I wanted to uh some friends who were interested in some of the esoteric sorts of things that I have and that I like. And so I really didn't know what masonry was about at all. And I had this fantasy in my head that masonry started at a particular place in history, it had this very strict evolution that it followed, and everybody just agreed upon what happened in history. And uh what I found out, which everybody already knew, is that uh Freemasonry just grew up out of a whole bunch of different pods of groups, and so that the rights that we have today, while they come from ancient sources, may have come from dozens of sources to merge to where they are today. So then, as I've been going back through history, currently the 16th and 17th century are my favorite periods of history, taking a look at folks, particularly like Lyas Ashmole, who was a Mason, and what did he do? What did he know? And are there any cross-currents between Masonry and alchemy and perhaps some other categories? Particularly what I want to talk about is just kind of the man, Lyas Ashmole. What was he? Who was he? And I'll just, you know, spoil it and tell you he was Superman. And then talk a little bit about the historical milieu in which he lived and breathed, and perhaps what came before and what came after, and then take a look at one of his illustrations, as I had said, about the alchemical initiation, see if there's any clues there about what happened. Excellent. And and I think there's some clues.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, for sure. I've got your outline here in front of me, and I I like that you talk about uh Teatrum Chemicum as the most important body of work uh in alchemy in English. And it's not uh I mean it's widely known in certain circles, but it's it's not as widely distributed as it could be, certainly compared to, say, uh Agrippa's three books of occult philosophy, for example, is a good example of an esoteric book or an occult book that enjoys very wide distribution and and acceptance uh in people's personal practices. But you don't often see a copy of Teatrum Chemicum Britannicum sitting on the average occultist shelf, even though there are good versions of it out there. You can get it in PDF for free if you want. I was fascinated in your paper where you talk about that. But before we go down that uh that rabbit hole, uh tell me a little bit more about your your attraction to the craft, and then your you're sort of beginning to study this material. Were you were you familiar with with Ashmole and the other founding Freemasons before you were a Mason?

SPEAKER_03

Yes. But I wasn't really interested in their aspect of being a Mason. I was more interested in alchemy. I had uh uh done a psychology degree in which uh it was Yumean-based, and Yume's whole philosophy of psychology, if you will, came out of uh alchemy. So I was early on baptized into that, and from there I just started digging deeper and started learning more about the confusing world of alchemy, if you will. And uh I came to find out that just about everybody that I then was coming in contact with who knew about alchemy didn't really know anything about alchemy. And of course, my fellow uh unions would talk about, you know, this and that phase of alchemy, and it it was and I'm not trying to sound demeaning, but it was clear very clearly early on, they didn't have a clue really what alchemy was about. They knew what Jung had to say, and what Jun has to say is absolutely fabulous stuff, but it wasn't really alchemy. The way I got introduced to the craft is I would go to uh William Kissel's esoteric book conference that he had every year. Very sad it's not happening this year.

SPEAKER_01

Probably where you and I met for the first time.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it could be very well. Met a man there, John Belange, who's uh a wonderful Mason, an amazing bookseller. And we would get together at these conferences, and one day we just got talking about Mason. I'm like, what is it with all these nutty Mason types? And uh John started talking to me about it and showing me some books and entering into conversations more about masonry, and he said, if you want to really explore masonry, he's like, you need to find a good group. And he says, I know there's a good group here in Seattle, Esotericid 316. Look them up, and that's all he gave me. And so I looked him up and uh started meeting with the folks, and of course, fell in love with the group.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that's excellent. And and so did you take your degrees? Well, you took your annot apprentice degree, and I know the guys at Esoterica take their time. Was it immediately apparent that this was like the right fit for you? Like putting I've I've heard some people refer like putting on a baseball mitt the difference between trying one on at the store and the one you got 20 years ago, right? Some people you it's like putting on an old mitt and it fits it fits perfectly, and you slot right in and you become part of the lodge culture and it becomes part of your life. It isn't for everybody, but some people find that experience. I'm just interested in that.

SPEAKER_03

I would say that's a great that's a great description, yes. You know, before each of my degrees, I never read anything about them. I didn't want to know what uh you know anything on the internet had to say about it. So I went in there cold, and I'm so glad I did because uh after the first initiation, it was like, oh my god, I've I have found my people. And it was uh such a great experience. Um anyway, it was great. That's all I have.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so that's good. So you get involved in the craft. Did it your degree work, did it immediately reveal to you things about uh these for these ancient Freemasons, ancient Freemasons, these these brethren from two or three hundred years ago that you wanted to learn more about? Oh, yes. Uh once once you're once you go through the the degrees and you listen to the lectures and you understand sort of the arc of the organization that it's kind of like how do you want to put it? It's uh institutionalized uh reason and liberalism evolve into one, right? How do you describe it to a non-member? I'm always saying, you know, I can't tell you what it is, but I can show you. How how did how did that affect your opinion of these guys, in particular Ashwell, who you step forward to talk about that?

SPEAKER_03

I tend to be a romantic Troy. So even looking back in history, it's a very dark people, I'll find the most romantic thing about them to admire. And I that is no casting no aspersions whatsoever on Ashwalt. But there were a lot of folks, you know, in the craft who were less than admirable, let's put it that way. But in any case, there were several uh archetypal themes, shall we say, that I kept running into in my studies in Masonry and for my fellow brothers that I realized just connected with me. Uh this this notion of becoming a better man, of getting along with other human beings without uh tearing each other apart, if you will, just really appealed to me. My early uh education was in theology. So I had a good sense of the sacred, I had a good sense of uh God themes, if you will, for lack of a better word. And of course, most of theology comes out of medieval thought anyway. And so I kept finding with masonry, it had all these medieval ideas, if you will, not just medieval, but you know, I would have been happy during the medieval times. Let's let me put it that way. But these notions of knighthood and chivalry and everything having revolving around something sacred, where magic was still something that was valued and made special, if you will, as opposed to something that just got in our our way of reasoning and thinking. All of those things just have culminated together with me, and uh I just feel right at home being in the middle of it.

SPEAKER_01

So that sounds like an intersection between you know, materialism and and spirituality. I c I can understand why you'd like Ashmole because it just in talking about these things, I think it would be something he would uh he would enjoy debating the fine line between the two.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. Yeah, I think so. I think so. Um let me just uh mention uh in my Masonic studies, jo brother John Gardy has been just a a great friend and a great partner. And uh for several months we got together once a week and we just sat down. John has a great library. We'd sit down and we'd uh open up Ashmole's Order of the Garter in the first edition and sit down and read it. And uh, you know, John's a big Milton fan, and he'd bring out an original version of Paradise Lost. He's like, here, look at this $40,000 manuscript, let's read through it. And uh things like that. And to me, that is uh it's so sacred to be amongst so many amazing books. And uh anyway, it was during that time that I really got involved with Ashewell and started looking deeper into him. And uh, you know, I went through this period of time and read through all these biographies of people in the 16th, 17th century, John D. and John Kelly and Queen Elizabeth and Walsington and all these guys, and and I kept throwing in an Asheville and I've got, I need a biography, John. Do you have a biography? Or do I need to buy one? He's like, no, I I have just the one for you. And he pulled out a five-volume set from Jouston on uh on Ashwell. I'm like, Are you kidding me? You expect me to read that? Anyway, I did read it just for clarification. The last volume is an index. I didn't read that. Uh I just read parts of it. But it's that kind of uh uh baptism with fire, uh uh, I should say, that has just kept spurning my uh my want to learn more and to get go deeper in these things. So I am uh holy, uh an asphole, a D addict, no question about it.

SPEAKER_01

And there's been lots of uh great, great new biographies of them in particular. Uh Tobias Churton did Magus of Freemasonry. I was just I interviewed uh P. D. Newman the other night about Angels in Vermilion, and I was we were talking about the the book about Cagliostro's Egyptian Rite Freemasonry, and I mistakenly called it the uh the Magus of Freemasonry because it's not what it's called. It's um Egyptian revival, I think. But regardless, um the excellent work by Churton to make Ashmole seem very approachable. And it again, what what I like about him is that fine line between uh uh loyalty and uh duty to self and duty to country and duty to the sacred without you know beholden overtly to the church. Just uh what a great guy. Can you can you uh talk a little bit about some of the things you learned about him and the the biographies you you worked on?

SPEAKER_03

Sure. Uh first of all, I have read Church's biography as well, and uh it's a brilliant book. I loved it. I've gone back and read certain you know certain parts of that over and over again, and every time I do, I keep finding new things, and I'm like, gosh, I don't remember reading this.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, he has he has he has a way of uh uh presenting information in a dense but not over overwrought fashion. He includes the important his Crowbi biography is very similar, you know, very much enjoyed that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's uh it's just great stuff. I in doing some research, you know, on the theatrum, I expected to find a lot more information. And uh I must say there's not enough information out there, but but Churten's definitely is a shining star out there and much much uh smaller than the four or five volumes of uh of the other guy. But with uh Ashwell, I was completely floored by the amount of brain power he had and the amount of things he did. And uh clearly in in today's psychological term, we would call him an obsessive compulsive, and thankfully for us, because uh he produced uh some great work for us. But uh, you know, I think uh in the outline I sent you, I had I had just listed like 20 of his characteristics. For example, that he was a knight, that he had his own heraldic coat of arms, and that he produced the first authoritative book on the order of the royal garter, and just was very, very comprehensive on all of the orders uh of knighthood that he could find, which of course we find either overt or covert references to in masonry all the time. But the Order of the Royal Garter, I mean, as I said, Don has a couple of these at the library, and uh, you know, I've gone through that. I have a simulated copy, but there's something about the something from the 1600s holding a copy that's very uh very spiritual, if you will. You know, he was a uh uh Ashmole, a lawyer, an officer. One of the things that really impressed me about Ashmole is he was definitely a royalist. Uh, he fought for King Charles during the Civil War. And when King Charles lost his head, it wasn't more than three years later that Ashmole published the Theatrum, which to me was unbelievably impressive in that in the theatrum, if you go and take a look at the collection of items that he has in there, and is in his preamble to the book, he nowhere hints at uh bitterness or rancor for having chopped off his king's head. And uh, and I believe in 1652 we were still under the uh Cromwellian protectorate, so probably wouldn't have done him much good to be picking on Cromwell or any of the roundheads. Yet the point for me, the takeaway, I'm taking too long to say it here, I apologize, is just that what Ashmole showed in his generosity to bring together those who were on opposing sides of a political force, was that we could come together. And in this case, it was alchemy, but I think it was more than that. I think it was also an English heritage. I think Masonry was definitely mixed up in the middle of that. But just to talk about the English heritage for a minute, the English language, which believe me, through high school, I had little use for English teachers, particularly when they started talking about iambic pentameter, you know, this and that grammar had no interest for me whatsoever. It has a lot of interest for me now. And I know for Ashmole it had a great interest because he believed the English language, and he talks about this in the theatrum, the English language was the language to bring to light all of this light, particularly around alchemy. And you know, he talked about how the language of alchemy was written secretively, right? So that you would have poetry that was very strange, you couldn't quite understand what it was saying. Hidden and allegories and metaphors and uh secret code, if you will. But he brought it together to show that there is a better way, and the better way, in order to get to that better way, he had to work for it, and he had to find out what it was within um within alchemy that was the real gold, if you will. But the English language was something that was really fought for, if you will. Alexander Gill Milton's uh master, if you will, from school uh wrote several books on the English language, and he really fought to bring it out and show the that it is superior to Latin even. Latin, German, French. English is the language. And we all grew up thinking English was just it is now. Excuse me. But it wasn't then. And they really had to uh really had to fight for it. Troy, I'm sorry I'm getting lost in Ashwole here. That's okay.

SPEAKER_01

We'll uh let I ask you a question and let you go and that's that's sort of my style. I'm not you know unless you you trigger something I'm not super interrupted. You were talking about his love of poetic language and it was something Ashmole isn't necessarily known for his his language necessarily because he's known for so many other things. But he he found that the expression of ideas in written or spoken language were very important. Can you speak to that for a minute? Sure.

SPEAKER_03

Yes and I I probably should have brought a copy of the theatrum with me so I could uh look at it and brush my brain off a little bit in the introduction to the theatrum Ashmole mentions the either English language directly or indirectly and keeps pointing to it as the he did these are not his words are my words it's kind of like the savior language and it's here and it's telling you God's secrets. And one thing that particularly children myself included during you know high school days when you talk about the old poetry it's not something that is really I think understood or at least maybe I just had really bad teachers. That's entirely possible. Particularly in the 16th and 17th century when poetry was written by Spencer or Milton in this case a little bit by Ashmole poetry was the way to write any serious subject and they took the tradition back to Homer to Ovid to Dante all the way through all of the greats when they had something powerful to say they would say it with poetry. And it was always veiled language you had to really pay attention to it. So when I get you know some young folks they know I'm interested in alchemy they want to learn about it I tell them if you really want to learn about alchemy and this is the same for Ashole what you have to do is you have to have a great understanding of mythology Greek mythology Roman mythology Nordic uh uh mythology you have to have a great understanding of the big books of Western tradition you have to read Homer if you don't understand the mythology you're not going to get half of the references that Ashwell refers to or in the case where we're going to be taking a look at an illustration you won't even get it you can't get it because it's laden with mythology it's uh laden with ideas which are ancient and so those are some of the things that I think masonry has inherited perhaps without really knowing what they've inherited probably uh during the 17th century it would have been much more powerful to know about the mythology of the Romans or the Greeks and how that tied into Dante and Chaucer and Edmund Spencer. Something else I discovered along these lines and I'm just free flowing here Troy I apologize but that's good um I studied very carefully a lot of the 16th century literature and what I found was the folks Spencer, John D. Philip Sidney the folks that were so good at the poetry were also the cryptologists of the time so that in the language of God if you will it was truly the language of poetry and it was secretive. Whatever you look at that's worth looking at in those times was secretive. So Masonry really just was in a sense they didn't do anything new they were simply reflecting the literature of the time what's really amazing is just to go back and uh take a look at Walsingham take a look at who he was connected to and Walsingham of course was Queen Elizabeth's uh right hand secret agent uh uh as he's depicted to be but he had his touch in everybody John D. Philip Sidney John Kelly and many many more and these were the folks that did his spying for him Christopher Marlowe was also reputed to be a spy, a brilliant playwright somebody who died too young uh there's a question how did he die? Was it just a barroom brawl or was it because he was involved in his spy work and they took him off who knows but one one thing we do know all these folks that were so brilliant with writing were also the spy masters. It wasn't just one group. Something else I noticed is that the alchemist language if you will the things that were really important to the alchemist are all reflected in the poets all the English poets they've got it and you won't be able to just pick up a book and read it and get it like I said you have to know the mythology you have to know the basic groundwork for alchemy the hermeticism those are all things that were richly laden into all of this literature. And so you have a guy like Ashmole who comes along and he starts to sort it out and he starts to organize it, creating the Order of the Garter, the uh theatrum it's also reputed one of his uh associates said that he had notes for a book on masonry right so it's really unfortunate we don't have that because we would have probably some really amazing stuff. And of course you've got the uh conspiracy theorists say oh yeah you know he was uh he was taken out because it was too dangerous maybe it wasn't uh I tend to think when uh Ashmole had a large part of his library actually burned before he could donate it to the uh uh to Oxford there to start the first museum so and maybe maybe there's still uh still some of this stuff out there uh I know it's just like uh Isaac Newton's notes on alchemy sat in someone's library for years nobody even knew Newton had anything to that they were his exact musings apparently there's volumes and volumes of Newton's notes about the specific dimensions of King Solomon's temple.

SPEAKER_01

Newton was obsessed and I'd like to talk about that. So let's not forget that the Ashwell really founded the first true archive of these type of materials with the donation of much of his personal collection to to Oxford he was personally responsible for the preservation for the rediscovery and preservation of Dee and Kelly's work which survived today as a very vibrant magical system and probably one of the most influential I would say spiritual channelings of all time a seven year period where they received hundreds of documents that were written as with Dee as the as the operant and with uh Edward Kelly as the squire they received this huge quite voluminous uh material that is now the Enochian magic system or even bigger than the Enochian magic system that is well known because we don't know how much of that material was lost you know it's being some of these notes were being used apparently as fish wrapping at one point so Ashmall is responsible for preserving all that and I think that's fascinating but one of the things you'll you'll that people will talk about now is that how many of these uh Renaissance men were were into Hermetic philosophy, Rossicrucianism what would now be fringe religious movements but at the time they they were an example of a classical education. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Like we just talked about Newton and I I'm famous for talking about Newton people hold him up as this cornerstone of the Newtonian physical model and yet people don't really realize that he did that in his downtime that he was much more interested in alchemy astrology and the limits and proportions of King Solomon's temple of all things he applied his brilliant mind to try to figure out the dimensions of this might just have been an archetypal building it may never have existed. Right. He spent much of his life thinking about it. And I think that's a good example of of what motivates these type of people maybe you could talk a bit about that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah great illustration for sure a couple things worth saying about Newton one is one of his main handbooks for alchemy was the theatrum and people have said to me well I don't get it how could this possibly be a book on alchemy that would be useful in the laboratory because if you read through the theatrum it's all in poetry and it's not easy poetry it's a little bit difficult. I think uh the reason Newton used it is because there are many clues and symbols inside the book that Newton ferreted out. In fact I've heard people say this I don't know it to be true but I would like it to be true. And that is as a result of the time that Newton was spending on alchemy he actually was arriving at these very famous things that we know about him now his work in optics and in physics and you know the the following following apple from the tree sort of thing. So to me that that is just really fascinating. I did a deep dive on Newton several years ago and what I arrived at is alchemy was very important to him I also discovered he spent a lot of time in his Bible trying to find out when God was going to come back not to replenish the world but to punish all of the evildoers. And I arrived at the conclusion I don't think I would have actually liked Isaac Newton very much but the things that he did were so amazing and that he was tied into Ashville I think says a lot as uh one of his mentors if you will if not physically in life at least someone that he looked up to and yeah I you know this uh there could be a book written on how or I should say who did alchemy affect and made a huge dent in the world and just with that alone I think Ashmole and Newton are two people that definitely would be in that book. Yeah and you could go on and on from there. But yeah I mean Newton something else about Newton that uh a lot of people don't know is he was made master of the mint and he went in and he uh he basically whooped the mint into line we might be able to use him in the Fed nowadays you know he he purified the uh the coinage and he ended up making money for everybody and I thought that was really incredible and if you look at Ashwal he too was a numismatist who had such a great collection that people today and I'm an ancient coin collector we would kill to have the collection that Ashole had but he didn't just have the collection he could identify every coin he could go through and he could tell you about all of the emperors and the mythology that is represented in those coins. As a matter of fact he took that knowledge and it's in the beginning of the Order of the Garter and he uses to show how the knighthood has its roots in the Roman traditions I mean these guys were just they were just amazing everything they touched was so deep and then when you find out how much they they cross touched was even more amazing. You know and I remember reading about Ashwall he would look for works of Dee and uh uh one of the stories tells about him getting the works from somebody I I can't remember the whole story but Dee had buried a bunch of his stuff somebody dug it up it ended up in this warehouse with you know these old cloth vendors or something they knew Ashmole was interested and they got Ashfold to come in and uh traded a bunch of Dee's writings for a copy of the Garter from Ashmole we could go on and on and talk about the connections between these rates the connections were very palpable and they all went back and uh reached common roots on the other hand you know the time period that uh we're talking about the 16th and 17th century if you had an idea that was contrary to the rulers you could very well die right and whether that was whether you want to hang on to your Catholicism become a Protestant be a royalist in a time when when Royalist wasn't popular any of those ideas could have gotten you killed that's how important it was to have an idea and for um I go back to the Masonic notion of brotherhood I think uh Ashwell really exemplifies that he is able to take the times of England even though by the 17th century we could argue were possibly a little bit better than the previous one but nevertheless Ashwell was able to take all that stuff and put forward an order of the garter put forward symbols of masonry and alchemy which brings people together as opposed to split them apart I think it's important to note as well that so many of these greats you're mentioning they're not just practicing science they're practicing these what we would now consider you know law sciences or dead sciences.

SPEAKER_01

And I when I interviewed Jamie Paul Lamb he said that you know there's there's a big difference between some rational sciences and these these dead sciences and I'll I'll give you the examples he uses is that with alchemy the difference between alchemy and chemistry is that with alchemy there's also an expectation not just change in the material you're working with but it could affect change in the operant as well. And it's the same the difference between astrology and astronomy is that there's a belief that the position and movement of the heavens affect the operant to the affect the observer. And it's the same with astrology and alchemy and there's a there's a third one but I I can't recall what it is off the top of my head. But but these practitioners of these law sciences, you know, that Newton was into astrology as well. But it would have been common for a learned man at the time to use astrological portance or have at least an understanding I just think it's fascinating that now we're happy to discuss the rational sciences only and anything that might include some sort of meaning or change in the individual isn't taken seriously and that something's been lost. And I think if you look around the world it's not that there's a moral bankruptcy I don't believe that at all I don't believe we're living in a worse time than the past I just think that people struggle to find meaning without the influence of religion or spirituality in some fashion and and thus the rediscovery of these dead sciences or or dead practices. You know I I think what one of the reasons Ashmole is is so fascinating is that he took these things very seriously as well as his work in the outer world you know that but he was very interested in making himself a better person I think.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. Yeah well you uh you bring up a good point and that is with alchemy you have astrology those two are inextricably linked uh you you don't undertake the alchemical work without following the correct measurement of the stars or the planets you know I had the uh the great privilege of uh attending a program uh at the Sophia Center there in Wales in cultural astronomy and astrology and uh I must say when I before I started the program the uh uh the director was trying to talk me into joining it and I'm like look I'm not interested in astrology why would I do why would I do this?

SPEAKER_01

I've often said the same thing. My personal practice even today astrology is probably the least influential and I I practice uh I'll say to people I practice you know five five dead sciences before breakfast it's astrology is the and then I talked to somebody like Jamie Paul Lamb who who takes it very very seriously published several books on the topic he casts charts for a living this sort of thing anyway sorry to interrupt you just find that no no I had the same attitude I'm just like astrology what but it's like other archetypal studies right it's similar to the Kabbalah it's similar to sympathetic magic these things all build on each other anyway you were you were arriving at a point sorry yeah no no no problem that's great interaction well Nick Campion is a director there at uh the Sophia Center uh an absolutely wonderful man and uh I was interested in studying stone circles right of which there's over a thousand in the British Isles and for Ireland I will say Ireland and the other British Isles how's that?

SPEAKER_03

How politically correct yeah and he said he said you don't understand Rick he's what you're talking about is what we're doing and so I entered the program and soon realized as Nick says in many of his books the very first people up through at least the 18th century if not more were inextricably linked to the stars and I think where we get screwed up with astrology is that people think astrology is just one strand of a science When in fact there are dozens of strands of astrology and different ways to approach the stars and to approach the planets and approach ourselves in the middle of it. And I would say that's the same for uh, you know, you talked about Rosicrucianism, uh, masonry. There's not one strand of any of these. So whenever you talk about any of them, we have to keep that in mind. You know, I'll tie a link to that with Ashwell. Ashwell is both accused of and defended against being a Rosicrucian. Right? And as I as I quickly found, and I find these, Troy, whenever I start going into a new subject, I try to find out as much as I can. And what I found is uh maybe two people really understood the history of Rosicrucianism and what it meant, and how there are at least 12 different strands of Rosicrucianism. Now, what I really believe is that Ashwell was, if not a Rosicrucian, at least completely tied in with their thoughts and ideas, which was simply to take all things to God. And in their case, they took all sorts of alchemical symbolism, tied it into God, uh, which I believe ended up both into uh an alchemy, came into uh masonry, sorry. Yeah, I think it's absolutely prevalent in there, where I just tell people, take it easy. It wasn't like there was this continuous line of here's the father of Rosicrucianism, and he wrote this manifesto, and therefore it shows up. Rosicrucianism began with an anonymous writing that captured Europe. I mean, it absolutely captured the thought. We had uh uh Francis Bacon in his book on the New World, right, was just filled with Rosicrucian ideas. And that book was then taken by uh the Royal Society, among which Ashmole was a member, Christopher Wren, uh a few other Masons, and they filled the building that they built with symbols from that very book, which which was just amazing to me. And I'll just throw out one one little thing here that I'm gonna talk more about in detail, and that is in their building they had the checkerboard square, right? And that's uh gonna be something I don't want to give all my goods away, but to me the checkerboard square is one of the most misunderstood items in masonry, if not history, that uh it's been missed. People have just missed it right in front of the face.

SPEAKER_01

That's wonderful, but you could save that for the talk. Uh let's get back to you. So you studied studied these historical greats, in particular Ashwell, and you find their interest in these this hermetic philosophy, resurrectionism, these alternative belief structures. How has that influenced you and your your personal practice? Can you talk a bit about that? Do you feel comfortable talking about something like that with somebody like me?

SPEAKER_03

So I'll just give you a thumbnail of my spiritual search, if you will. My early family was Roman Catholic. I had the great privilege of being the beat the shit out of by nuns as a young lad. Um it didn't dissuade me from the Catholic Church, I must say. And uh, if anything, I still thank the Catholic Church for giving me that sense of God, of awe. And to me, that's really important. As a young teen, I got involved with a Protestant group, and uh which led me in another direction because the way that Protestants, particularly evangelicals, the way they look at life is very much different than Roman Catholics. And they will tell you how the Roman Catholics are going to hell and vice versa.

SPEAKER_01

But anyway, the old tribalism of the outside world. Exactly. Seems strange from inside the craft, does it not? It does indeed, yes.

SPEAKER_03

So I'm a very I've been a very serious person. When I set my heart on something, I really try to plow into it. I really plowed into the uh evangelical group, if you will, and uh began my studies in theology. And and one of the first things I I realized was, wow, I am never going to actually make it in this group because I am clearly a heretic. Nevertheless, I still I valued that relationship with the other, if you will. And even today, I find tremendous meaning from the Bible, as I do from Shakespeare, from Milton, from all these great authors. At a certain point, I was more or less set aside as not a true member of the faith, which which was a little bit painful, I gotta admit. But nevertheless, it's like, okay, well, I I get it. I don't it's like gonna be a Republican when you believe in abortion, right? They just aren't gonna accept that. And in any case, I still had a sense of spiritual value and meaning. I found my next following, I guess, if you will, in uh Chinese medicine, qigong, tai qi, uh, which led me into Carl Jung, a deep dive on him, which I absolutely enjoyed. And as I've evolved, I guess, in my journey, what I have found is there is a lot of deep spiritual meaning in just about every religion or philosophy that's coming to this earth. There's some I will assume and not have anything to do with, but by and large, there is so much that has come through on all of these religious planes and philosophies that's really fantastic. And so I can read about a Catholic saint and I can have compassion and value and learn things from them as I can from a Protestant crazy guy, right? A Martin Luther or John Knox or whoever. Uh a lot of these guys who which uh I probably wouldn't have liked them in real life, but I liked reading about their lives and in some of their writings. So for me, what you know, what I try to communicate to those I love is simply if you seek, you will find. If you sincerely seek, you will find. You will find meaning. And you know, you talked earlier, Troy, about people finding meaning in some of these uh pseudosciences, as they say.

SPEAKER_01

But many I prefer I prefer dead sciences. Dead sciences or lost lost sciences. Pseudoscience implies it's um it's lesser than I I just over forgotten. These are still to many of us practitioners, lots of these practices are still as vibrant as ever.

SPEAKER_03

I apologize. I take back the No, that's uh that's okay. But it is it is the human purpose to find meaning in life, to find meaning and purpose. That's what we do. And if you look at anything, I can tell you from a psychological perspective, having been a licensed therapist for a while, it is the people that have meaning in their lives that makes it. And typically that meaning is around a practice or a faith or a credo. But I really believe that our purpose in life is not to be happy, it's to find meaning. And I love to look through history and find that meaning, and I think that's why masonry is so important to me because it really opens its arms for that. And it says, Rick, find your meaning. And and there's not many guardrails there, and I like that. Because I had a lot of them growing up, not just the nuns.

SPEAKER_01

You know what, Richard? I think that's an excellent place to wind it up. Again, Richard, thanks for joining me here to talk a little bit about yourself and your paper, and of course, Elias Ashhmole.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Well, thank you, Troy. I really appreciate the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01

Now, before I hit the stop recording button, I always throw in a little extra. Do you have a question for me?

SPEAKER_03

I do have a question for you. Yeah. I'm really interested in how you got into the That's a good question, and I don't think I've told this story.

SPEAKER_01

So uh years ago when I was a teenager, my mother's second husband and my stepfather, Paul, he was a conspiracy theorist and he left a copy of The Temple in the Lodge lying around. And I read it, and not long after that, holy blood, holy grail, and I kind of went down this conspiracy theory rabbit hole. It was 12, 13, 14. This is in the early nineties. Okay, late eighties, early nineties, when there was quite a bit of this stuff coming out and people were talking about it. I was also uh quite involved in the satanic panic of the eighties. I was uh I played role-playing games and video games, and I was involved in my youth group and was sort of a an occult symbolism specialist and would re would advise the other youth groups in town on satanic and occult symbology. And it's it's really true what some of the satanic panickers used to say that rock music and the occult would lead you down that dark path, because that's how they got me, is it was all about it was the erudition, it was the intelligence you had to build on to play Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, for example, to even understand the books as a teenager. You had to get get smart real quick. And so that kind of dragged me along. And so, you know, many years of of reading this stuff and being involved in those subcultures, it just kind of naturally grew in that direction. As a as a 20-year-old, my wife and I had a bookstore in my small town. We wound, it was a new agey leaning bookstore. We wound it up. There was a copy of Regardi's Garden Garden of Pomegranates in the Golden Dawn on the shelf. And rather than sending them back because they were too old, we couldn't send them back. I kept them and I read them. And then, you know, I sort of brushed up against Crowley, and I've told this story where I went and got a copy of the Book of Lies at the Visions bookstore here in New Westminster in Vancouver. And that's how I got sort of into Taliba and started reading Crowley. And that that's gotta be almost 20 years now.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks for listening today. You can support the show by liking, sharing, and subscribing on your favorite podcast indicate even more helpful to uh create a directory of screen Masonic events and publications if you are aware of something coming up, please let me know by email. But in the meantime, check out the Masonic Conference's website at MasonicOfference.com. Check out our analysis at MysticOffice.com and don't forget to sign up for our next hosting right there. Story to art.