The Mystic Tye

"The Genesis of American Freemasonry" with Dr. Ric Berman

• Troy Spreeuw • Episode 45

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There was no England and no America. There was a greater Britain, and a few thousand people in London held most of the levers.

Dr. Ric Berman joins us to talk about his new book, The Genesis of American Freemasonry, published this June and timed for the semiquincentennial. It traces the craft in America from its earliest colonial footholds, through independence, to the creation of the state Grand Lodges, and it asks a question most American brethren have never had answered plainly: how did our ritual, our structure, and our lodges actually get here?

The answer runs through some remarkable people. Charles Delafaye, a Huguenot refugee who became undersecretary of state, a senior investigating magistrate, and head of the Secret Intelligence Service, sat at the heart of British government with correspondents across Europe and the Americas. The first Provincial Grand Master of New York was his nephew. The first Provincial Grand Master of South Carolina was a colleague from his own lodge. Trace the appointments and a network appears.

We also get into the split between the Antients and the Moderns as a social rupture rather than a ritual one, the role of Philadelphia in driving the Antient movement down the wagon trails and over the Blue Ridge, and what happened when the craft reached the frontier. In Lexington, Kentucky, forty percent or more of the male population belonged to Lodge Number One. Often the first act of a new lodge was to establish a burial ground, because no one wants to die unremembered thousands of miles from home. Every state but the original thirteen founded a Grand Lodge before it achieved statehood.

The conversation ranges into the Enlightenment machinery underneath all of it: religious tolerance and meritocracy as radical propositions, the 1738 papal encyclical In Eminenti, Desaguliers and Payne and the 1723 Constitutions, Locke, Newton, and Montesquieu, who was initiated in a London lodge before writing the political theory that echoes through the American constitutions. Ric is also candid about the parts that are harder to celebrate, including how thoroughly Southern Freemasonry was built on the wealth of a slave economy.

He closes on the future of the craft, and his answer as a historian is three words: relevance, leadership, aspiration.

About our guest

Dr. Ric Berman is a Masonic historian and a member of Quatuor Coronati Lodge No. 2076, the premier lodge of Masonic research, where he has served in the chair and now leads the Quatuor Coronati Correspondence Circle. Under his stewardship the Correspondence Circle has grown roughly fivefold. He is a past Prestonian Lecturer, and the author of some ten books across eighteen years of research in England, Ireland, and America, including The Foundations of Modern Freemasonry, Schism, and now The Genesis of American Freemasonry.

Initiated at twenty-one, he found the craft incomprehensible, drifted away for two decades, and came back only when a work colleague asked whether he was on the square. He has spent the years since writing the books he could not find when he needed them.

Referenced in this episode

The Genesis of American Freemasonry by Dr. Ric Berman, available through Lewis Masonic, Macoy, and Amazon

The Foundations of Modern Freemasonry, third edition, and Schism, second edition, both now reissued at reduced prices

Quatuor Coronati Lodge and Correspondence Circle: quatuorcoronati.com

Upcoming: Ric speaks in Sacramento on Saturday, August 8th alongside John Cooper and Susan Summers on the Declaration and the semiquincentennial, at the Scottish Rite building, 10:00 to 4:00. Details and tickets through the Quatuor Coronati website.

Looking ahead: a major Quatuor Coronati conference in Cambridge, England, in early September 2027, held in one of the colleges on the Cam.

You can find us online at mystictye.com. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/mystictye. Email feedback, guest suggestions, and any other questions to troy@mystictye.com.

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We are looking to create a directory of Freemasonic events and publications. If you are aware of something coming up, please let me know by email. In the meantime, check out the Masonic Conferences website at masonicconferences.com.

The Esotericism in Freemasonry Conference will be held on Saturday, September 19th, 2026. Our keynote speaker will be Bro. Lon Milo DuQuette, author of The Tarot Architect. Bros. Ike Baker, Doug Russell, Dago Rodriguez, and Josef Wages are all slated to present. Get your tickets at esotericmasonry.com.

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Graphics and web hosting are by Art Szabo Creative. A special thanks to Organist for our theme music.

Happy to meet, sorry to part, happy to meet again.

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If this episode resonated with you, the most helpful thing you can do is leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. We are also building a directory of Freemasonic events and publications. If you know of something coming up, send Troy an email at troy@mystictye.com.

Graphics and web hosting by Art Szabo Creative. Theme music by Organist.

Happy to meet, sorry to part, happy to meet again.



Welcome to The Mystic Tye, a podcast for Freemasons. I am your host, Troy Spreeuw. You can find us online at mystictye.com. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/mystictye Email me feedback, guest suggestions, and any other questions at troy@mystictye.com. There was no England and no America. There was a greater Britain, and a few thousand people in London held most of the levers. Dr. Richard Berman joins us to talk about his new book, The Genesis of American Freemasonry. Published this June and timed for the semi-quincentennial, it traces the craft in America from its earliest colonial footholds through independence to the creation of the state grand lodges, and it asks a question most American brethren have never had answered plainly. How did our ritual, our structure, and our lodges actually get here? Dr. Richard Berman is a Masonic historian and member of Quatuor Coronati Lodge No. 2076, the premier lodge of Masonic research, where he has served as the chair and now leads the Quatuor Coronati Correspondence Circle. Under his stewardship, the Correspondence Circle has grown roughly fivefold. He's a past Prestonian lecturer and author of some 10 books across 18 years of research in England, Ireland, and America, including The Foundations of Modern Freemasonry, Schism, and now The Genesis of American Freemasonry. Please welcome Dr. Ric Berman.

 

Wow. Ric Berman, good morning. Thank you for joining me here on The Mystic Tie. Wonderful to be here. It's super early on the west coast of British Columbia. I m- a beautiful day. It's gonna be t- probably 25 or 30 degrees here today. but I'm locked inside talking to you because this is what I like doing. Here, let me turn my lamp on so people can see me better. Th- thanks for joining me and it, w- we can't remember if we met when I was i- at QC for Trevor McKeown installation in 2024. I think we did Yeah, I think we probably did. A- and, There were a lot of people there, Yeah. people A- and that was unusual, I understand for QC. They made a point. And then many of us who came all this way weren't even the furthest who came. There were visitors from Australia, if memory serves. And they were like, Goodbye we are overshadowed by these 30 North Americans that came for Trevor." It think what was unusual was such a large contingent from a single location overseas. We would normally have, I would guess, three quarters visitors. And we've got QCCC, the Quatuor Coronati Correspondence Circle, has thousands of members worldwide. It's probably a quarter of members are in the UK, but another quarter plus in the US, North America, and then we've got people from Australia, Latin America, Europe, Asia, et cetera. And it's really nice that people will make a special trip to visit QC Lodge to attend our seminars, conferences, and we loved it. We love welcoming them. So I don't think it was unusual to have a lot of visitors. I guess for a really popular talk, for example Oscar Alleyne spoke the first quarter of this year. We had a full house for that. We had guys over from the States, obviously all around Europe, Australia, et cetera. You get a good talker, you get a good subject and the people, they will come I also recall a guy who had taken the train like 300 miles and he was sad. He was like, "I thought I'd be special coming here today and affiliating, finally affiliating." He's like, "I came all the way" Yeah. and then there's all these North Americans." I'm gonna try and make it for Adam Kendall's installation and I believe I'll be there next May Fantastic for the particular speaker that has been highlighted, but I don't know if that's public yet so I won't talk about It'll be public shortly. I, I think so I've also got the draft list of speakers for next year, and it's a good bunch of guys. Actually, it's a very good bunch of guys. Isn't it always? It's like how could I miss this? It's very nice of you to say that. it's only an eight-hour flight. It's only an eight-hour flight. Listen, I fly eight hours to speak somewhere you could fly eight hours to listen. Yeah. In- indeed. Thank you. actually, just on that subject, Yeah was doing a talk on one occasion, it was quite a few years ago, but it was Des Moines, Iowa, and it was January. And you know what Des Moines is like in January like minus 20, minus 30. yeah, And I got hung up at Chicago O'Hare. All the planes were frosted up. I finally got there. I got there three hours late, one hour before I was due to speak. And, charged in, changed, spoke, and I had no time at all before I had to fly out the next morning. Sp- if you spend any time traveling around North America, you'll get stuck at places. You do Chicago is one. Dallas-Fort Worth is another, Yeah, it is De- Denver is another. The great thing about being stuck in Chicago is you can get a decent slice of deep dish pizza at the airport. And you just, when you travel I used Yeah more. I I'm traveling not at all in the States right now, but I used to travel a lot more, and y- you just, you have to learn to make the best of it because do. You do. You just put yourself, you put yourself in the zone and go with the flow. That's all you can do. Yeah. It's, Yeah it's part of our lived experience. And then we can think back to what our forebearers did in, in the New World founding all these lodges and founding all these towns. Correct. And Correct would travel by wagon train over the Rocky Mountains Yeah Let's be thankful we can just hop on a plane. And who knows how much longer we'll be doing that anyway, right? That is that, that is also true. Absolutely So thanks so much for coming this morning. We're here to talk about your book The Genesis of American Freemasonry, I wanna talk about that, and then we're gonna talk about how you joined the craft and what's going on at QCCC obviously which more than we just did. what do you wanna tell me about your latest book? Do you have a copy? I don't have copies yet. I do have a copy. can you show it? I can show it Lovely. Can you see that? Hang on, let's get it right. you go. Yeah. There There you go. Lovely So that was published at the beginning of June-ish, and it's now out on all the normal channels, Lewis, McCoy, Amazon, et cetera. Yeah why did I write it? I wrote it, for a couple of reasons. First, I really like researching American Freemasonry, and I started doing that as an adjunct to my research into English Freemasonry. And I became aware very quickly that there wasn't an England and an America and an Ireland. There was a greater Britain. This was all part of the same organization. And Right in the early 18th century, because- The elites were so limited in numbers. You're talking about a few thousand people in London who basically control most of this stuff, and in the colonies, the senior appointees there are generally appointed by London, whether they're a governor, whether they're the secretary of the colony, the receiver of the quitrents, whatever it happens to be. The royal counselor approved by the Privy Council in London, et cetera. The Board of Trade in London has a great deal of say over what goes on. And a lot of these guys, many of these guys are Freemasons, and they meet in the same lodges, the same social circles. And we were talking earlier about social groups and networks and the importance of this, and when I started researching English Freemasonry, I could see these connections. So weirdly, after doing my first book which was if you like, an analysis of how religion and politics lay at the base of the foundation of the Grand Lodge of England in 1717, some of those figures had, had really strong connections with the colonies, in particular with Massachusetts, with Pennsylvania, with South Carolina, and with Georgia. And I started looking at one individual in particular, Charles Delafaye, who is a phenomenal figure, not widely known, who was a brilliant guy. He was a refugee, a Protestant from France. Came over with his family. Brilliantly academic, but also administratively incredibly competent, intellectually brilliant, and highly loyal, and he became, within a few years, the cornerstone of the administration in London. He was undersecretary of state, if you like, chief of staff to a series of secretaries of state from different political parties with different alliances, and he was kept on by everyone because he was so brilliant. So he ended up right at the heart of the British government. And on top of that was the or a senior investigating magistrate, and was head of the Secret Intelligence Service. So he was a guy with connections all over Europe, all over the Americas, and he had friends, and he corresponded, and all of this material is on record. And, you could... just to give one example that's really not widely known, although I've mentioned it in a couple of articles. The first grand master of the Provincial Grand Lodge of New York was his nephew Right? That's how he got the job. The first Provincial Grand Master of South Carolina, John Hamilton, was a colleague in his lodge, which is one of the reasons he got the job. Myriad other examples, but you can trace these connections, and I love doing that. And then you get into how American Freemasonry develops, and it develops differently in different states, different colonies, because they've all got different social structures, economies, et cetera. Yeah And it's researching that really I find fascinating. And that was really what drove me to write this book. I'd written histories, Georgia Freemasonry, South Carolina Freemasonry. I'd written histories of the Provincial Grand Masters, and I'd written little papers on Massachusetts and Pennsylvania and so on. And I thought it would be good for the 250th to tie them all together into a single book that that, that tracked the development of Freemasonry in America really from its foundations right the way through independence to the creation of the state Grand Lodges, and looked in particular at the impact of migration on America and within America too, and on how American ritual developed, because relatively few American Freemasons have that picture of the development of ritual as a whole. And I thought it was worthwhile outlining it, giving people some insight into what was happening Fascinating. thanks for an outline there. Normally be- normally before I do the interviews I at least become familiar with the content, but I'm just so buried in reading, and I ha- I don't have copies of this yet. But I f- I find this subject matter a fascinating b- because in the current... Th- there's a lot of discussion, and we can edit this later if you want. There's a lot of discussion about originalism and original interpretations of what the Founding Fathers were up to, Yeah, no, I'm aware. I'm aware right? And is very pol- I don't wanna say... It's politically hot, right? There's a lot of discussion about this idea of Yes. And I don't think, I don't think especially the judicial originalists have any idea what they're talking about. But we as Freemasons might have some idea of what those founders were up to. Because i- in, in getting together with some guys to hammer out, say, a lodge amalgamation Yeah or hammer out a plan w- what are the next several district deputies gonna look like in a Yes. Yes The, these things that you hammer out with your brothers, and there's no one person in charge now, right? is what was going on where they were putting together these colonies, plus the territories. After armed conflict, they're trying to decide how are we gonna structure this? And everybody's got different ideas. But they came together and they worked it out, and it's never the best plan that one guy had. It's the best set of, It was the least bad. Yeah, the compromise. it's the best Yeah. That's it. right? Yeah. Do, Yeah. Anything you wanna say about that Okay. Yes. Yes. while you've got a, while there is. big blowtorch of a microphone There is. There is. about this? so let's go back to the book. What I do there is I set out a series of building blocks. So I start off by explaining how, at least in my analysis, how Freemasonry started going back to the Black Death, looking at the organization of what were religious guilds, what become local trades unions, how they morph into fraternal societies. And then in the early 18th century, how that whole arrangement is hijacked, remolded, repurposed for political and religious reasons, how it becomes a leading edge Enlightenment organization espousing religious tolerance, at a time when the Catholics and the Protestants were at each other's necks with long knives, when hundreds of thousands were being killed. And I... And that's literal. It's not, it's, it's a literal statement of the truth. So religious tolerance, meritocracy at a time when birth and wealth determined your position in life, and so on. So a series of Enlightenment precepts that are being pushed forward by Freemasons and Freemasonry, which becomes a vector for their transmission, okay? And that is what's happening among the elites, and that's important, among the elites. And then in the 1740s and '50s, this changes, and I talk about that and how this changes and why this changes, and I explain the difference between the s and the Moderns, which again, is not widely understood. So I explain that in social terms, which is predominantly what it was. It was a social issue that the elite, the gentrified lodges didn't want to admit more working class or middling people to their organization, so they set up their own. And the principal driver came through Ireland, where religious tolerance was previously unheard of. And I, in other books I talk about that and the rationale for the creation of the second Grand Lodge and so on. And then this transfers to America. And what is key here, again, something which is not widely understood. So the role of Pennsylvania and Philadelphia in particular in driving the Antient Masonic movement. And this is something which is traveling down the great wagon trails from Philadelphia and when the Piedmont is full or broadly populated up over the Blue Ridge Mountains into Tennessee, into Kentucky. And Freemasonry on the frontier is a very different form of Freemasonry to that on the East Coast or in the, with the elites in London. It's a mutually supportive form of Freemasonry. It is something which is fundamental to life on the frontier. And you can see this, you can see this really obviously in places like Lexington, Kentucky. You go through the list of members of Lodge number one, Lexington, and 40% or more of the male population are Masons. You go... Y- these are not towns, settlements with a lot of women. These are frontier towns, and the same is true as you push further west. You go into Colorado, you go into Arizona, you go into Montana, you go into Oregon. Freemasonry there as something which is integral to life on the frontier, which provides mutual support, fraternal brotherhood. And again, something which isn't recognized, something that was pointed out to me by Daniel Gardner, the Grand Secretary of the Grand Lodge of Montana. Masonic burial grounds, and as soon as you recognize one, you look in other towns, other settlements, and tens and 20s and 30s of these. And it was often the first thing that a lodge would do would be to establish a burial ground because no one wants to die unremembered, Right Thousands of miles from home. And it was that sort of emotional, spiritual, fraternal aspect of Freemasonry, which was so important as a frontier push west to the Pacific And civic instruction, like the, how do you organize anything, You're absolutely right again. get along and every, we all have to help each other yeah, every state, with the exception of the original 13 for obvious reasons, every state founded a grand lodge in advance of becoming a state. So I was in Arizona a few weeks ago, and one of the guys there was saying, "Yeah, the Grand Lodge of Arizona predates the state by 15 years," or whatever. And this was true elsewhere. It established a structure, a means of governance. Very powerful story. It's a wonderful story, and the 250th is a great opportunity to tell that story and to, and to broadcast it, for God's sake Now k- I don't wanna get onto controversial topics, but there's no avoiding it, especially in the political environment we're in. But I recognize that the the anti-Masonic backlash that we see, it ... it comes and goes. It's constantly coming and going. But it Some would argue, and I would argue this, that you could lay all of that at the foot of the founders taking power from the spiritual authorities of the day, taking it away. You can't just assert something and expect the rest of us to treat it seriously, right? We're trying to have a positivist, rationalist approach to dealing with your fellow human beings, 'cause at least we should start with evidence. Okay, start there. So now we want freedom of conscience because you can't just assert something, your invisible friend, my invisible friend, whatever. Okay? Yeah. Yeah This plays a huge role, not just in the American Revolution, but then in the French Revolution and the current political situation, right? The rise of rationalism, positivism, and then s- and then the firm establishment is of science as the sort of we think about stuff. Okay? Do you wanna talk about how that shift occurred and or is, or does Freemasonry play a role here? 'Cause I think it does. I think Think that Freemasonry I think the accusation at that time is a legitimate one. Did Freemasonry help move us away from a religious authority that could be the same as a, a monarchical authority, could just be very whimsical and not rational at all and not fair or reasonable it's more than that. I think it's more than that. And if you want to go back to the basics, to the origins of this you obviously go back to the beginning of the 16th century and the Reformation. So you now have a challenge to the otherwise unchallenged power of the Catholic Church, where education information is controlled by the pulpit. Indeed information is handed down. Where the church is part of the establishment, where the church supports the crown supports the church. They're mutually entangled. And, just to look at the impact of Freemasonry whether correct or otherwise, just look at the 1738 papal encyclical, In Eminenti, where Masonry is considered to be heretical. Why? It's not spelled out, but the truth is that Masonry Treats religions as being on par. That all religions can be treated equally. There is a god but the route to that god is up to the individual. The individual is a Protestant, a dissenting Protestant, a Catholic, a Jew, whatever it happens to be. Yeah. And now all religions, not just monotheisms and that is an absolute challenge. right? Now that is an absolute challenge to the Catholic Church. It's a challenge to other established churches too, which is why there's always this problem. So that is one thing. But where does that come from? Okay, so we've mentioned the early 16th century and the Reformation and the rise of Protestantism and so on, and its various branches that then begin to pan out. And we see that, of course, in France with the persecution of the Huguenots in the 16th century and the 17th century, and that wave of migration that takes place in the late 17th century, one impact of which is that Desaguliers, the, the sort of prime mover behind modern Freemasonry, leaves France as a very young child with his family, comes to England, sees an opportunity. But it's more than that. It's more than that. We also have the philosophy of John Locke and the rational observation of Isaac Newton, and we see that now encapsulated. We also have, in 1688, the defenestration of James II and his replacement by William and Mary, and the development for the first time of a constitutional monarchy that abides by parliamentary rule. So all of these things are coming together at the end of the 17th century, beginning of the 18th. Persecution, political change, the rise of constitutionalism, and all of these find a home Within Freemasonry, and all of them are expounded upon by Desaguliers and Payne in the 1723 constitutions. And those constitutions are the same constitutions that underlie our human reason and all of the state constitutions in the US. So this is the driver. It's a political, it's a philosophical, it's a religious driver, not in favor of a faith, but in favor of tolerance, of political tolerance of religious tolerance, of a balanced approach. So it's no surprise that one of the key Masonic figures in Europe is Baron Montesquieu, who develops this poli- this political theory in his Persian letters in the 1720s. He becomes a Mason. Where is he initiated? Into an English lodge in London. All of these factors come together, and when you read the Declaration of Independence, when you read the US Constitutions, you can almost quote Locke and Montesquieu Yeah And aspects of the 1723 Masonic constitutions. These are the drivers and I'm not saying this drives everyone. Of course it doesn't. People join for other reasons. Many will join simply for the fraternalism. Of course they will. But there's this underlying current, and it has an impact. Now, that impact is very strong in the 18th century, and it finds its sort of apogee in America with the Declaration. In Latin America, you see it at the end of the 18th century, beginning of the 19th, with the attempt to throw off the European powers, Spain, Portugal. And I don't think it's a coincidence that some of the leading figures in, in, in the independence movements are Masons, and they have Masonic principles and they've, been members of lodges in Europe that are cutting edge philosophical lodges. A- and you find that too on both sides of the political spectrum. You do. In do. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. even, you, they're still like a rationalist humanist approach to this very extreme version of politics because they're still their heart they're Freemasons, right? No, I that's absolutely right. They have shared ideas. And, one of the things we've moved away from, unfortunately, in a wider societal context, is the idea of being tolerant of other people's views. Being able to argue, but without being vindictive. Being able to discuss without having to shout and scream. So y- having respect for someone, whether i- is having respect for their faith, for their politics, for them as individuals. Being polite The, it, I talk about this privately. I don't know if I've talked about it on the podcast before. This is perfect 'cause your book kinda intersects with this and Freemasonry succeeded so wildly and so completely in the modern world, and it wasn't like it was a conscious project. There Yeah. the, there, there are forces on the other side of the argument that would point fingers and be like, "Oh, it's just elitist," or, "It's this," or, "It's, y- it's a conspiracy." It was a conspiracy to treat all people as equals, right? Let's deal with each other with evidence as opposed to just accusation. Yeah d- but we succeeded so wildly. At one time, I like quoting this statistic. In North America, and this comes from from Join or Die the bowling alone. Can't remember the author's name right now. In nine- in the 1920s and '30s, a third of American adults, not men, adults, were members of a fraternal organization, right? And if you wanna see what's going on in North America, look around at the bowling leagues, the union halls, the fraternal Yeah. and everybody belongs to multiple. You don't just Yeah join several. We succeeded to such an extent that we all took it all for granted, and now that I think w- was just a, a " disinterested" sort of casual collapse, I think it's over. Hopefully it's over. At least it's over in, in this part of the world that I'm in. I'm hoping that we could get reestablished and try to g- get this back into our civic institutions anyway. But no, this is wanna a... about that? Like h- like how much of a Freemasonic world it WAS Freemasonic yeah, I'm... Absolutely and now, a- and now we're seeing all of this difficulty pulling- I am asked on countless occasions, "What is the future of Freemasonry? What are my thoughts on it?" And I normally respond as a historian by s- talking about periods when Masonry was successful, aspirational, people wanted to be members, and then periods where that was the opposite of the case. And that, that can turn on a dime to the extent that in the 1720s and 1730s it was wonderfully aspirational, vastly growth-oriented, and then in the 1740s it all collapsed. Why? And I think y- the answer which is applicable to Freemasonry pretty much anywhere and contemporarily is relevance. It has to have relevance to its members. Leadership. Leadership has to be on the front foot. Aspiration. People want to become members. It's an organization with an image, with a brand that is positive, that is constructive. Other things too, but if you focus on those three, I think you have the answer, that the organization needs to be relevant for the 21st century. That means reconsidering. It needs leaders- and, again, you look at the success of Masonry in the 1720s, in the 1800s, whenever, and when it achieves success, it has leaders who stand on the front foot, who stand up there, who display their Masonry as part of who they are and the benefits that Masonry can bring to s- to society as well as to the individuals. So that, that dynamic in many countries is lost. Can it be rediscovered? Yes, of course it can, and we've seen evidence of this throughout history, but it's that willingness of leadership to challenge complacency, to move forward, to stand up that will make a huge difference, and for individuals in the same way. It was the case right the way through to the 20th century that people would publicize the fact that there were lodge meetings. And those attending would be in the press, and they'd have photographs and, a new public building, a new civic structure was built, the cornerstone would be laid in a Masonic ceremony. And I've I've seen pictures of this happening throughout the West in America. On the frontiers, new town halls are built. There are the Masons laying the cornerstone. It's in the press front page. And of course, if you're a Mason, you're proud. And if you're not a Mason, you think, "Wow, I wanna do that." Right? It was a civic celebration that we don't get very many chances to do anymore. We're laying a cornerstone in September. We had a conspiracy theorist burn down building and gut another building and try to set fire to another building. One of those three, the gutted building, is going to get its cornerstone replaced because it was a forester's hall when we bought it, and we never had a cornerstone. In, Yeah it, we get a, we're gonna get a chance to lay a cornerstone. Fantastic And it, we're gonna make a big deal of it for us, but it will be quite a spectacle I believe for... as it should be. I, in fact, I know that in Philadelphia they're reconstructing the Tun Tavern as as as a means of celebrating not only the founding of the US Marine Force which it was their first location, but also of course the Masonic Lodge, St. John's Lodge that met there, first lodge in Philadelphia. And I know that they are going to have a Masonic stone-laying service with the cornerstone laid in a Masonic ceremony, and I think it'll be wonderful Yeah. And I I think we should be waving the flag as much as we can when these things happen. Totally. No t- you've got... You look back at history Washington with the cornerstone of the Capitol Building, Revere, the cornerstone of the Massachusetts State House, and my favorite actually is General William Richardson Davie laying the cornerstone of the first public university in the United States, which was UNC at Chapel Hill- Yeah North Carolina. Fully Masonic ceremony. And, it was those ceremonies set a pattern, set the scene. Put masonry at the heart of the communities, literally cementing in their influence, their importance, their support for these institutions Yeah. And it, e-evidence that it's always been a conspiracy to get people to think for themselves and better themselves, isn't it? Especially the university. Yeah Masonic than getting people to pursue higher education? Holy man this is, th- this is so true. Self-improvement through education is embedded in Masonic ritual in the second degree. It is all about self-improvement through education, the heavenly paths of science Yes, and I wanna point this out for the detractors too, not that any have listened this far in, but there's a point in one of our degree ceremonies where we strongly exhort the candidate to a serious study of their volume of sacred law. And I think much of the religious noise would be quieted down by people actually cracking open their own holy book and having some familiarity with what's in there, so they can't just be whipped into a froth by Yeah. Politically Yeah. Minister. Because That just enrages me when I hear people misquoting. It doesn't matter which holy book it is to me, but people who wanna misquote it or use it for political ends, that, that makes me mad. Anyway, Yeah if you don't like that you're also in league with the Freemasons. Anyway that's enough politics for today, Ric. You're, it I'm really looking forward to reading your book. Especially now I appreciate you doing the historical work of casting the founders in a particular light, because th- they, many of them were Freemasons and had an interest in this, secularizing humanist project, and might be dirty words, but I'm sorry. But they had a particular idea in mind, and I think it's been wildly successful Even those who weren't, even those who weren't Freemasons were still influenced by the same ideas And, came into contact with Masons and were influenced by them. So yeah, it is this approach. One can argue and one should argue that, Masons are far from perfect. And I, and I make this point of course when talking about slavery because virtually every provincial grand master was a slave owner. Many of the founding fathers were slave owners. Slavery was again, a, a foundation on which Southern society was built. If it wasn't for the wealth that slavery created on the backs of the slaves, there wouldn't be Freemasonry in the South. It was an expensive exercise, and if they couldn't afford it... the classic case is Georgia. So Georgia has a lodge at Savannah, and it virtually disappears because Georgia's economy cannot compete with that of South Carolina. South Carolina, slave colony. Georgia, slavery is prohibited. It's only when slavery is permitted in the 1740s, early 1750s, that the economy recovers and suddenly Freemasonry flowers in Georgia because they've got the money, they've got the wealth. It's built on the back of the slave economy. So you know, you can talk about this and of course that fracture runs straight the way through American society. Obviously right the way up to the Civil War and then beyond it. Yeah. And in many, it's still there There's the and there's still discussion and argument. No and again, I'm not really qualified to discuss, but as an observer, it, again, I'm not an American, but as an observer it's easy to be critical. But then again, we weren't there. And then the, many of the great minds in the craft did change their mind about it. Pike's quite famous for defending it at first and then being like, "No, this is, this, the, we were mistaken." We see the same thing. We see the same thing elsewhere. It's, it is, it's a very difficult subject. Y- there are such things as moral absolutes, but equally there's a whole pragmatical, sociological structure that's built into this. Nothing is ever black and white. Nothing is ever, completely one way or the other. There are so many shades of gray, so much nuance that n- that needs to be built in. But nonetheless, y- Masonry did a lot of good. It could have done more, I'm sure Sure. And as part of a colonializing force it had its... It did its da- its own share of the damage, but it's also a force for trying to reconcile Yeah. right? That, that's, that, that's true, and you see that played out very clearly in imperial India in the 19th century, where Freemasonry really is an instrument of empire. But, again, it's also the means by which Indian nationals are introduced to the Raj. You have by the end of the 19th century mixed lodges where both sides can talk to each other. Exactly the same thing happened in Ireland with Protestants and Catholics sitting down, and the only institution that would accept them both, the lodge Oh, that's fascinating. Ric, thanks again for doing the historical research. I wanna shift gears. I don't know if you've ever answered these questions, so we're gonna ask them. We I tend to ask everybody who comes on The Mystic Tie. H- how did you join the craft? So I joined the craft a long time ago. My grandparents were both members on my mother and on my father's side, were both Masons. My father wasn't but I was interested to see what they were doing, what they were, ... Yeah and so I became a Mason at 21. And I have to say that I found it incomprehensible. Really quite incomprehensible. And after a couple of years when no one explained to me what was going on or why we were doing what we were doing, I drifted away. And then work took me away. I spent a lot of time traveling around the world for work purposes. And then around 20 years further on, roughly speaking a work colleague asked me whether I would He fir- firstly asked me in a roundabout way, am I a Freemason? Are you on the square? So I said, "Are you asking me, if I'm a Mason?" I said, "Yes I'm not, I'm current with my dues, but I don't attend." And he said, "Do you wanna come to my lodge?" And it was around the corner, and it was a great lodge. I'm still a member. And I got back into it, if you will. And I went through all the offices, went through the chair. By that point, I was getting interested in Masonic history. And I joined a research lodge and went through the chair there, and then joined another research lodge called Quatuor Coronati, and went through the chair there. And by this time I had decided to go back into academia and to do a doctorate. And because I couldn't find any books on the subject, I decided I would write a history of the origins of English Freemasonry, which is what I did. And that was what launched pretty much 18 years of subsequent research, historical research in England, Ireland, and America, and probably 10 books on the subject, and God knows how many papers and talks around the world. But that was what got me into it. And I think looking back- As someone who had no understanding. I had no connection with Freemasonry. No one explained it to me. And I think that's true of so many not only younger Masons, but, older Masons too. There's no connection. You c- can build friendships, course you can, and that will keep you in the lodge, but having a real connection with Masonry itself is difficult if you don't understand it. So I've tried to produce books and talks which are accessible, which people can read or can listen to and understand what the history is and why we do what we do, putting it in a context. And I find that really valuable. I think other people from the feedback I've got, find it valuable. And I would like to continue to do more of that as part of my Masonry I wanna point out that 'cause I point this out as often as I can. You joined a lodge y- and you might not have clicked in that first lodge, but you tried somewhere else. If it, the, to those who have been initiated but drifted away, Yeah y- it's, you just gotta find the right group of people. Sometimes your Bye face don't fit. It's like a workplace Exactly. Exactly Or a sports team. Sometimes the, you just don't fit. But Exactly correct. When No, exactly right. Exactly right. you So y- right be with a really nice bunch of guys and the whole thing changes. The whole thing becomes, an experience that that you gain from on all sorts of levels Yeah. Thanks for that. That's, Th- now, th- we talk a lot about esotericism over here. I had David Harrison Yeah. ago, and he Yeah. similar to yours. He get, get involved in the craft but he's esoterically leading, right? His first lodge was like, "Meh this is a bit strange." And then he gets further into it, and then he's "There's no proper histories. I should write some of that down Yeah And he gets a PhD for it. I fi- I find it interesting, the, the s- similar arc. Your involvement at, at, at QC how did that go that you got so involved at Quatuor Coronati obviously a huge mistake. It's it's a warning to those in the, the joining the craft that when you're like, "Somebody should do X..." I told the story the other day about the Esotericism and Freemasonry conference. I was with Ken Lane at the MRF, the Masonic Restoration Foundation meeting here. And I think I said to him, just casually said to him, "Somebody should start a conference. We should st- like the Esoteric Book Conference, but for Freemasons here in Seattle. We should do it here, like out west here." And he's like, "That's a good idea. Somebody should do that." We did it. Because any good idea you come up with, you could try and give it to somebody else, but usually it's you that ends up doing it, right? I'm hoping that over the next few years I can identify one or more people who can take over some of the responsibility of running QCCC. Essentially QCCC was in a bit of a cul-de-sac. Wasn't going anywhere, it was losing members, and one of the key reasons for that was that the interaction with members was appalling. The website was terrible. Database management, subscription management was... all the nuts and bolts were falling apart or rusty. And it struck me that, what we needed was someone to just get a grip, and I said I'd do it. And we rebuilt the website. We outsourced the subscription management and administration, and tried to give people what I thought, what we thought they would want, which is, international talks, international seminars papers that are interesting, speakers who are good that you wanna listen to, not fall asleep to. And that has been impactful, and we have had, since the time I took over, which is, I don't know, 10 years or so back now, might be longer, but let's say 10 years, membership has gone up by about 500%. Wow. Yeah. And membership in the lodge itself and the, the people that have been asked and the Yeah. involved, like the, the reach is a little further afield now, would you say? Yeah, we do. We reach further afield, and I hope we'll continue to reach further afield as time goes by. We are a small lodge, sure One third of the members are pretty Antient, like many lodges and therefore don't turn up all that frequently. One third live overseas, Right? and come periodically, but not all the time, for obvious reasons. It costs a lot. And one third generally turn up. Yeah Yeah ... but subsidizing that relatively small number, we have QCCC. So- Yeah ... we have correspondence circle members from around the world coming. When we do conferences, and we always try and do, conferences and seminars, not just in the UK, but also internationally. We will have 2 to 300 people turning up for, some serious discussion, drinking, yeah, all the good things. All the good things. it! Yes. Meeting people with a like, like frame of mind, yeah. Yeah. I had, I remember sitting, across from the Connaught Rooms at a little pub there, not the Freemasons Arms and not the other one that's there, a different pub. And I was looking around. I don't wanna drop the names of the four guys I was sitting with, but I was just like, "What am I doing here?" Yeah. Yep were ... The, the stuff we were talking about, I was like I'm not up to this level yet. I gotta go home and up my game anyway." That's the kinda stuff you have when you go to a QC meeting, and I would highly recommend it. Talking to Alex Rafaila yesterday, and Sria has started a Masonic periodical. Here, I've got it here. Hang on I don't know if you've seen this yet. I can recommend it. It's only 65, 70 pages, and it's Okay But I was like, w- why would you start, why would you start a periodical? That's just creating a whole whack of work for yourself on a commitment. Now, you've been doing it, you've been running the proceedings and the correspondence circle 10 years you said. Yeah Have advice for people who wanna start a, a periodical of any kind other than don't? Other let "DON'T!" Me other than that. We have a team of people Yeah. who who operate AQC. So we have an editor, we have an editorial committee we have a proofreader, we have a publisher. Y- so it's not one guy on his own doing everything. I think that's the key, key part. You couldn't possibly do it all on your own. Although, I've gotta say, when you look at the way "Heredom" is run, he... a lot of weight falls on Adam Kendall and, Chris Ridley and, it's a tough job. Yeah, and if you look at Philalethes, it's, it's 90% Shawn Eyer Yeah I think, yeah, starting a new periodical is really difficult when you see so many of them folding. Yeah. they do fold and, Yeah. Yeah And that's a great shame. You might have enough articles to feed, to populate the first couple of issues, three issues. But keeping that going, keeping the quality is really difficult. And unless you do it as an online exercise, it's also quite expensive. I've gotta say, it's very expensive. Yeah. distribution, mailing costs, printing costs, et cetera. Yeah, if it's multicolored, my God, it's expensive Yes. That, the Rosicrucian I think Martin had a lot to do with them doing this. But the guy who put it together aga- again, brilliant. And Yeah It occult periodicals and esoteric periodicals have seen a resurgence in the early part of the new millennium, and they've died off again. But it's the kind of thing where you see four or five issues, and then it just kind of peters out. It's it does. It does to keep the momentum. You have to have a whole team or even a whole research lodge that people wanna be clamoring for to get their stuff published I think, I think one of the problems with esotericism is that too often it can fall into the trap of, "I think this," as opposed to, "The evidence for this is as follows." Yeah. And it's, it's a toughie be- and particularly when you get into Freemasonry because a lot of the Masonic experience, particularly with the Orients, is very personal. There are differences in Freemasonry as there are, in the Protestant and the Catholic faith between sort of high church and l- low church. Yeah have a belief in God, but the way they approach it is completely different. Oh, sure Yeah, that, the esotericism that the academic study of which, has come out of nowhere in the last 40 years. Yeah, no, that, that is true. And actually there are some very interesting academics who have researched it i- in a very bona fide way. Yeah, and that citing their sources Yeah, exactly back to original sources. And there's been more and more old manuscripts get published That's right. That's published, and exactly right. Yeah. the effort to suppress all of Yeah. Yeah It didn't succeed. So that's good for those of us who are interested in these sorts of things. Sure, sure a- and again Freemasonry isn't that, but when you study esotericism, it's been a it's... of the stuff that you get into in esoteric Yeah is Freemasonry necessarily. But when you get to study it, so many Freemasons were influential, especially in like tarot or occult orders that existed, right? Again, it's not Freemasonry, but there's just so much, Masonic influence speaking of the the periodical, what have you guys got coming up that you wanna maybe tease or talk a little bit about that's coming up in I think, your in the next few weeks for anyone on the West Coast I'm giving a talk together with John Cooper and Susan Summers on, on different subjects connected with the declaration and the semi-quincentennial. That's in Sacramento. Details on the Quatuor Coronati website. Do a click-through. Tickets available. What day is that? What day is that? that is the... And I'm gonna have to look at... in fact, I can tell you, it's the 8th of August. It's Saturday, the 8th of August. That's at Sacramento This'll be the Scottish Rite building. This'll be out well before then Yeah. Th- I've got another talk actually but that will be unavailable to your listeners, I suspect. It's in Philadelphia in a week's time, Nah, to, to... much East Coast reach, but I'll No, my show think sticking to the West Coast, Sacramento, if they have an opportunity to turn up, the meeting starts at 10:00, finishes about 4:00. You can stay over if you want. But yeah, three good speakers plus lunch, masses of car parking and it should be a good weekend, actually Yeah. Excellent. I'll- other thing I will mention simply and as a heads up for what is a year away, we are gonna be doing a big conference in Cambridge, England early September 2027. It's been a good couple of years since we've done one. And they're always good. You're staying in an Antient college right in the heart of Cambridge, right on the Cam, a beautiful stretch of river. And we have a series of really outstanding speakers over two days. Opportunity to network, to, as I said, drink and dine, but to listen to some really good academic and other Masonic speakers. So that plus, of course, we've got, all of the QC stuff. And I would guess that members of QC Lodge and our friends are probably talking at least once or twice a month somewhere around the world. Yeah. Wonderful. And w- have you got any other publications in the works that you wanna talk about coming up later? I've ... so far this year I've done a third edition of my four- of my very first book, which is The Foundations of Modern Freemasonry. Brought that up to date. I managed to get the rights back from Liverpool University Press. Wow so I've reissued it in a much cheaper format because as an academic publisher, they are looking to sell generally, 50 bucks, 55 bucks a copy. Yeah. I brought it down to 25, 'cause I thought that was more reasonable. Nice I also brought out a second edition of my second book, Schism, which is a history of the Antients and the influence of the London Irish. And that follows on from a lecture, from a Prestonian lecture I did a couple of years ago called The Second Grand Lodge. So that again, was the rights were held by Liverpool University Press. I managed to get those back. So again, the book is published at, 20 bucks or $22 rather than the 50 or so that they were doing. And then Genesis of American Freemasonry. So I've done three books in the last six months. I'm gonna take a break for a while. Excellent. A- and as far as papers in, in, in QCCC, anything you wanna tease there, the people that are one actually. I'll tease one in Heredom. I did a paper in Heredom in the last issue, which was looking at the who came first, Yep Pennsylvania or Massachusetts? And in this case, in the next issue of Heredom, I've written a paper on, A Mason that no one knows. And I just came across this chap on a Scottish Rite research website, and it was a very hagiographic, laudatory biography of this chap. And I thought, I don't believe that's entirely correct." So I went back to all the primary source material, and I've written a paper which basically says, "If you wanna write a paper, this is the sort of thing you should be doing." And, I went through each of the points that were out there on the web, and I analyzed them. Were they correct? Were they not correct? Et cetera. So it's a biography of this particular guy. And I'm not gonna tell you too much about it because it rather spoils the article if I explain it now. But yeah, there's a new article coming out in "Heredom", which will be in a few months' time. And I think there... I've got a couple of papers in AQC as well including one on the Huguenots and the Huguenot influence amongst London Freemasons in the first half of the 18th century. That's a bit niche, Yeah still, it's of interest. It's the impact that French Protestants d- yeah, had on the development of Freemasonry. S- speaking of niche as we wind down here what are you reading that might be of interest to the wider craft? If any, if unfortunately on the wider craft side, I read relatively little from, I do read a, a bit but Masonic works, I tend to write them rather than read them so I tend to have a much more eclectic and wide-ranging bunch of books on the go at any one time. And at the moment I'm reading about the intelligence services in the First and Second World Wars. I'm reading about the re- revolutionary movements in the 1960s and 1970s, the Red Army faction, the Red Brigade, the Angry Brigade, the Weathermen, y- just looking at '60s counterculture. Because, y- all of these things have an impact. All of these things are about control and rebellion, Yep Fighting for your own views rightly or wrongly. And, having that far wider perspective, I think helps me as a historian Yeah. Yeah looking around, one might have some sympathy with the weatherman, for example. Ex- You don't need now know which way... Yeah, you don't need a weatherman to tell you which way the wind blows. Absolutely Yeah. F- fascinating. Thank you so much for taking the time with me today it's been a pleasure I hope we didn't get too political for the listener. I Oh, that's fine. we'll hear back. I guess I'll hear back People have different views, treat them with respect

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