Masonic Wisdom Cards Bro Jonti Marks and Bridie Blaze

What happens when the symbolic language of Freemasonry is taken off the tracing board and placed directly into your hands? This episode, I'm joined by Jonti Marks and Bridie Blaze, creators of the Masonic Wisdom Cards, A Deck for Daily Reflection, a 78-card illustrated deck exploring Masonic symbols, working tools, virtues, and sacred geometry as prompts for contemplation rather than divination.

We talk through Bridie's folk-art-inspired illustration process, built from a hand-chiselled, linocut-style technique that echoes the working tools themselves, and Jonti's approach to writing a companion booklet that invites quiet reflection rather than instruction. Given that the deck shares its 78-card count with a tarot deck, we spend real time on the comparison: where the two overlap as tools for memory and self-examination, and where the Masonic Wisdom Cards depart from tarot entirely, since there is no divination and no fortune telling built into the design.

The conversation also opens into the art of memory more broadly, how Freemasonry, Kabbalah, and tarot all draw on the same rhetorical memory tradition, and how a deck of cards can work as a modern entry point into lodge education and personal study. Jonti and Bridie close out talking about how the two of them came to collaborate, the year and a half it took to bring the deck from idea to print, and the early feedback coming in from the first backers.

Books mentioned in this episode

A Mosaic Palace, Freemasonry and the Art of Memory by Martin Faulks (Lewis Masonic, 2018).

The Masonic Wisdom Cards are distributed through Lewis Masonic. Find them at lewismasonic.co.uk.

Links and resources

• Esotericism in Freemasonry Conference: masonicconferences.com
• RSVP for the upcoming conference: esotericmasonry@gmail.com
• Mystic Tye website and event calendar: mystictye.com
• Patreon (early episodes, extended cuts, artwork, extras): patreon.com/mystictye

Support the show

If this episode resonated with you, the most helpful thing you can do is leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. We are also building a directory of Freemasonic events and publications. If you know of something coming up, send Troy an email at troy@mystictye.com.

Graphics and web hosting by Art Szabo Creative. Theme music by Organist.

Happy to meet, sorry to part, happy to meet again.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Welcome to Mystic Tie. The podcast for Freemasons. I am your host, Croy. You can find us online at mystiktie.com. Email me feedback, guest suggestions, and any other questions at Troy at Mystikttie.com. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash mystiktie. What happens when the symbolic language of Freemasonry is taken off the tracing board and placed directly into your hands? Today I am joined by Brother John T. Marks and Bridy Blaze, creators of the new Masonic Wisdom cards, a deck for daily reflection. This beautifully illustrated 78-card deck explores Masonic symbols, working tools, virtues, sacred geometry, and philosophical ideas as prompts for contemplation rather than divination. We discussed Friday's striking folk art-inspired imagery, Jaunty's contemplative approach to Masonic symbolism, the deck's relationship to tarot, and how symbols can become tools for memory, meditation, self-knowledge, and deeper Masonic study. Please welcome Brother Jaunty Marks and Friday Blaze. Welcome to the Mystics High, Johnti Marks, Bridey Blaze. Thank you both for being here with me today. We were put in touch by Lewis Masonic about your new Masonic contemplation deck.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Why don't you guys give us an overview of that and we could talk about it a little bit?

SPEAKER_03 2:09

Shall I do that? Bridey.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Okay. It is a deck of 78 cards. Each card has a beautiful picture, a beautiful rendition of a Masonic symbol drawn by Bridey. Very they're very vibrant, they're very different. It's it was it strikes me that a Masonic symbol is a Masonic symbol. A an Ionic column is an Ionic column, or a skirit is a skirit. It's not there's not a huge amount of leeway that one can have with it. You can't invent a new type of skirit. But Bridey has brought something really beautiful and original, I think, to these drawings. They're very alive and Yeah, full of energy. Anyway, so each each one of those 78 cards has a different Masonic symbol, and with the cards is a small booklet, and each and in the booklet there is a small short piece of writing linked to a particular card. So each card has a number. You could, for example, you could just draw a card at random, look at the number, open the booklet to the corresponding symbol, then the find the same number in the booklet, and read a little bit about it. And the idea is that it will act as a kind of springboard to deeper thought, really. It's an invitation to just sit for a while and have a moment of quiet contemplation of the thing that that in a way makes Freemasonry what it is, which is a a system of symbols, you know, veiled in allegory, but it's symbolic. The symbols of Freemasonry are key to what Freemasonry is. So if we can spend some time with that, I think that's a good thing. So that that's the purpose of it. It there are 78 cards, and there are traditionally 78 cards in a tarot deck. It's obviously not a tarot deck. It's not about you trying to divine anything particular, but I feel like if you choose to just draw cards at random, then you're doing something that maybe Tarot does, which is plugging into an energy energy of the universe and listening for messages, if you like, to see what almost like what's the universe saying to me today. What do I need to know today? What what would help me today? If you choose to just go through them in order, as if you're reading a book, that's that's fine too. The lessons are as valid, but the fact that it's cards rather than a book gives you the opportunity to choose how you approach them, to shuffle them and just pick one off the top or keep them in order. One one guy who has received his deck said, I'm a little bit OCD, and I'm going to be spending a lot of time making sure these cards stay in order. So that's cool. If he wants to do it that way, that's completely fine. But I think we can it's also a little bit of a kind of not fun, but like a light-hearted way of approaching the stu, you know, maston Masonic learning, really. I think Masonic learning is important. We all agree that we should study, and this is just a new way of doing it, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Yeah, I'm I'm just looking at the pictures on the Lewis Masonic website, the Masonic Wisdom deck, the Masonic Wisdom cards, and looking at the artwork. It's beautiful. Do you want to discuss a little bit the the inspir some of the inspiration for some of these images?

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Yeah, for sure. Um it was a bit of a tricky process for me, but in the end, I think, as with collaboration usually does, then we ended up creating something quite special that we wouldn't have been able to create separately from each other. But I really wanted to bring my own personal style, or at least not forget my own personal style, but obviously these symbols and the meaning and all the layers behind each of them carry so much weight. So I wanted to take that very seriously in the research. But my personal style is based on folk art and is very organic, and I work a lot with things in nature, and it's very kind of free-flowing and a little bit imperfect or a little bit wobbly. So I did want to bring that in as well. And I went back and forth for quite a few months on deciding exactly how I wanted these cards to look. Um I started by making a border that's repeated on each of the cards. Of course, there's 78 cards, and I wanted to draw all of the symbols individually, but I wanted this border that repeated across all of the cards. And they include a lot of the kind of symbols that people know, like the all-seeing eye and the the compass square and compass. Then the symbols themselves, which is the focus of each card, I wanted it to stand out and make sense with Freemasonry. So I started looking at the tools, like the chisel and the gavel and chiseling at the rough ashlon and at the stone. So I in the end made this technique on I drew them on the iPad, but it was like a liner cut effect. So it was to show that handcrafted process. I wanted it to definitely look handmade and that kind of process of or chiseling away at the kind of digital paint. And that was what I did in the end.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Yeah, it's it's an interesting balance between the geometric perfection, of course, you could get when you're using digital art and making it wholly your own. And I'm looking at examples of the cards and just the colours, as you said, are very vibrant, but the the line art doesn't seem it seems wholesome. The best way to put it is they just seem natural, like somebody sat down on a wax tablet and drew these out.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

Yeah. Yeah. I think we're both very keen on work where you can where you can see the hand of the artist in it. Good. Um and Bridey's kind of other work is very much like that. It's very it's almost tactile. It's like um it's very there. And I think she's managed to capture that same kind of spirit with these.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Yeah. That's what I wanted. And I know a lot of the obviously researching the kind of traditional Freemasonry imagery and depictions of these symbols, it can be very precise and it's very detailed. But when I was researching, it's almost I found it a little bit inaccessible or or hard to grasp, hard to understand. So I wanted to bring that into these cards because John T's writing also is very accessible, I think. And so I think these cards are a nice kind of route into learning about um a lot of the symbolism behind Freemasonry and a lot of the ideas behind Freemasonry.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Now, just looking at the examples that I can see here, not all of these would be immediately recognizable to just a third-degree craft mason. You guys cast a wider net than just the English emulation work. How far afield did you look? What other influences did you did you put in there?

SPEAKER_03 9:34

I I th I think that the way English is structured is slightly different from the North American model. I don't know about Canada, so I can't really comment, but the arch degree is very much kind of considered an integral part of the third degree in England. And in fact, more and more I think there's a there's quite a draw by United Grand Lodge to promote a a stronger link between those two orders. So I think there there is some symbolism from the royal arts degree in there. Um I don't think I've gone beyond that. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

I just um I'm just asking because what are you looking at in particular? Well, it just did that there again, you see the triple tau in the triangle on these examples. And that's a that's a royal arch symbol. And it just so you know, here in Western Canada, the Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon, it is a three-degree system, and the York Wright degrees, like the rest of North America, are kept in a separate three-degree system. Whereas in in England, it's often the mark is its own lodge, and then the royal arts degree is its own lodge here. The mark and then the making of a virtual pass master essentially, and then the royal arts degree are kept in another series of three degrees. Right. Yeah, okay. And then there's more degrees, cryptic and beyond that the York right side, and then uh the Scottish right side, which is it there in England, of course, that's the Rose Qua, which are treated a little differently. Here the Concordant bodies tend to be grouped in two major and then one smaller group that includes the A B and all the weird stuff. Yeah. But it's it does share a lot of the same symbolism, of course. Of course. Yeah, it's just it's just the structure, I think. The way the degrees are structured together is different. And I am a Royal Arch Mason and a Scottish Wright Mason. So I'm familiar. I just again, a lot of times with the concordant bodies, you will go back at to these symbols and bring them forward again to teach a different philosophical lesson. And that's that's what that's that's why I'm asking.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Yeah, that's the beauty of symbolism, though, isn't it? There's there's just so many levels to to all of them. You can come back and come back and come back.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Indeed, for sure. So that this is a 78-card deck. And Johnti, as you pointed out, this is not a tarot deck. But whenever anybody sees a 78-card deck, what is gonna immediately think of the the traditional the most of it now post post-Golden Dawn tarot approach. Can you highlight some of the differences between what you've done and how a tarot deck would be constructed? Because I think there are some significant differences. I think calling a contemplation or a wisdom deck is an excellent title. Thank you. But there's certain there's certainly it's got to be some influence here.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

The number of cards is the is probably the main influence. As I said earlier, I think that kind of sense of randomness, the sense of allowing the universe to speak to you by choosing a random card on a particular day or something. I think that shares a little bit w with Tarot the this sense that there's a sort of I don't know, a consciousness to things that don't appear consciousness, that that kind of can guide us and support us.

unknown 12:54

Right.

SPEAKER_03 12:55

Is is an idea in the background. Because as I say, some people they want to keep the cards in order and they want to go through them numerically. That's completely fine. But for me, I wouldn't do that. I would be shuffling them and drawing one out at random to see what what the universe had to say to me today. And I th I feel like that maybe shares some kind of sense of what a tarot card does. But of course, some of the writing that goes with the cards is saying if you chose this card today, that perhaps the perhaps maybe what you should focus on is this or that, or so it's it is they are offering some kind of guidance or suggestion of how you might like to focus or interpret that card, or where you might like to choose the point at which you dive deeper, from which you dive deeper. Because very much these are not none of this is definitive. There are more than 78 Masonic symbols, for example. We could have gone on and on. And each piece of writing is very short, and every symbol is worthy of a book. So we're not we're not writing the be all and end all of every symbol. What we're offering is just the opportunity to stop, to think, and as I say, I really that this imagery of a diving board is very fitting because this is an invitation to go deeper. And and if you have a good springy dive at diving board, you can get deeper. So the cards and the writing together are offering an opportunity to do that. And yeah, yeah, I think that's the main sort of similarity and difference with the tarot deck, Renee.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Yeah, I think also it has similarities in that ritual of sitting down and taking some time, blow down, and pull a card and look it, look deeper into the messages that it may be giving. I also really wanted to look at Pamela Coleman Smith's illustrations for that very one of the most widely used kind of tarot illustrations that we recognize.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Rider weight, the rider weight. Just it's about 90% of global tarot historically.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Oh so beautiful. So that was definitely obviously an inspiration one off. But the difference for me not everyone uses tarot like this, but the difference for me is that a lot of people would use tarot to s to look at what is ahead. And these cards are more saying what is already there and how can we work with that.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Now, your colour choices are quite striking. Did was there a specific inspiration for that?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Do you want to talk about that? I just wanted I wanted the cards to be cohesive but be different from each other. I just love the look of the blues and the greens together. So just to explain to anyone who hasn't seen the cards, there are a whole range of blues and greens. And obviously, this dark kind of blue on the box and on the book cover with the stars around, just to me, just looks mystical and exciting to open and dive into. It's almost like a little treasure chest to go into. Um but with obviously I wanted it to look like a liner cut effect, which is like a printmaking technique.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

And these are often monochrome. So that's why I wanted to go for the monochrome kind of look.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

You talked a little bit about working with a fairly limited palette. Bridy was interested to know what if there were particular colours associated with Freemasonry. And of course, we talked a little bit about the Blue Lodge and maybe the red of the Royal Arch, but in fact we the blue was the key, really.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

And then the images are like bright stars in a dark firmament.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Really? Always less. That creates an interesting contrast. That's beautiful. Alright. Did you is in the guide that comes with them, is there specific instructions for a contemplative process? Or maybe a a group contemplative process, like a group of guys, no, there are there are there are suggestions of how you might use the cards.

SPEAKER_03 16:59

Just about and it's basically what I've said, which is just a suggestion to maybe sit quietly, to take a card, to look at it, to read what goes with it, and to spend some time with it. I haven't talked I don't think it's in the booklet very much, but we have talked with Martin. I think even it's on some of the some of the material that he's put out on the website. The idea of using them as well, maybe we did put it, I can't remember. They're potentially really good for lodge education moments and for lodge discussions to to to initiate a talk or to to even group some together. There there are clear kind of groups within them. There are the three aprons, there are the five pillars, there are the the working tools grouped together of the different degrees and things like that. So there's there's opportunity to use them as with uh in groups within the lodge to trigger discussion and learning as well.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Aaron Ross Powell It's been my argument for some time, and I'm actually talking publicly about this now, that that the tradition of using emblems like the images on the tarot, and the emblems we use in Freemasonry is a m is a modern reflection of an ancient art of memory. These are illustrations of memory palaces to put it. That's a it's a bit inaccurate whereas but the memory palace tradition is also a reflection of this art of memory where you're not thinking in words, you're thinking in images, right? I think one could do worse if one is a Mason than to collect this large group of symbols and spend some time contemplating them on their own on a Masonically interesting background with some guidance from people who've put some thought into what this might mean. It's brilliant. It's it's brilliant. And it's funny because just in the last year I've been talking about that. I give a talk called Mason Memory Palace is everywhere, and I argue that both Kabbalah and Tarot are a reflection of the rhetorical art of memory.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

And you mean Martin's Martin's very strong on that. I guess you've read his book, have you?

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yes. He's read yeah. Yeah, and that that Mosaic Palace was the inspiration for that talk, and it was when he was here for Graham Masonic Day the year before last that motivated me to be because I've been considering this for some time. And my in my own practice, this is already true. And it's just whether I could present enough evidence that it might be academically considerable, that all of these practices fall under the same practice. And I think you guys are contributing to the same tradition with this, it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

I'm thinking about I don't know if this is quite understanding what you're saying, but I'm thinking about like storytelling and how that's passed down through generations. And then obviously when you add some sort of imagery to that, then it's kind of solidifies it even further in your brain. And then also, for example, with these cards, when you add yourself taking part in an activity that you are yeah, active in with the images, with the not stories, but the stories that go along, then it's very helpful for um, I guess, remembering and continuing the knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah. Yes. Well it's oh, go on, sorry. Yeah, no, this is it's just Greek philosophy, Aristotelian and Platonic philosophy, it in their own ways to argue that that now a modern man might think and speak in words. Language plays a huge role. But I believe for a longer part of human history, images were more important. And before language was invented, we would spend a lot more time dealing in images. That's why images attach so more so much more viscerally in our memory and are such a key tool to this practice. You're not necessarily going backwards, but it's like utilizing the way we think in a different manner and giving a language that's the whole purpose of a lot of people will use these traditional hermetic practices to for different goals, but but it's not about divination, although there are tools for that. It's more about finding a different way to think about thinking and think about yourself, right? And then maybe learn about yourself, right? By by examining these symbols, which are, in a sense, alive outside of us, right, and exist. This won't be unfamiliar to to Neoplatonists or anybody who studied Plato. They exist in this world of forms in a perfect manner. And here you guys have represented them again in this in this two-dimensional environment for us for our contemplation.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

It kind of strikes me that it fits in also with with modern theories of how we learn. The the idea of kinetic learning and learning through words, through through visual, through touch. In a way, as Bridy said, these cards allow for quite quite a few of those because because we're touching them, we're feeling them, we're physical presence, and they're visual, and there are words as well, if we choose to add the words. So we've w they're giving us access to a lot of ways of waking our brains up, if you like.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

That's brilliant.

unknown 22:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

How did you guys here now we'll stop talking about the deck and start talking about you guys? How did you guys get to meet and start working together on this?

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Jonti's actually my stepdad.

unknown 22:31

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

We forgot to mention. Yeah, John T is my stepdad. And he's been writing about this kind of stuff for ages, and obviously knows that I'm an artist and wanted to present this idea to me. Jonti, I don't know if you want to add to that.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

Yeah, please. Yeah, I think there's a tendency to think that, oh, I'd only ask Bridey because I'm married to her mum. But actually I asked Bridey because I love her work. And I knew she I knew she would do this really well. I knew she would bring something really fresh and different to it. So yeah, we've known each other for a while, really. Yeah. So yeah, that's how that's how we met. How the idea came about. I don't know. Ideas are funny things, aren't they? You sometimes just wake up in the morning and you've had an idea.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

So because a project like this, I don't want to I don't want to beleaguer the point, but a project like this, how would you say it? It's gotta be a labor of love. If you look at past collaborations, right? You mentioned Smith. I'm more familiar with with Crowley and Harris, but it was five years during a global conflict, they're corresponding back and forth, maybe eight years took forever to get the ideas put forth. This also, I imagine, would have taken some time to put together and then get a final vision that that sort of meets approval, right? So you guys want to talk a little bit about that process, or is it still too fresh to discuss at this point?

SPEAKER_00 24:08

We can talk about it. Brady, do you want to go first? It took such a long time. It took um nine-ish months for me to finish the designs on the cards, which John T at the same time was working on the writing. I don't know if it took you even longer with the writing, John T. But then we had the process of designing the box and designing the book cover, which I've never done before. So that was a whole learning curve, but it was really fun. And like I said earlier, you when I really love to work with a brief from somebody, from their brain, from their ideas, because I end up creating something completely different that I would have never created by myself. So I love to collaborate with people and work with briefs and interpret that in my own kind of way. And it's quite interesting as an artist to just keep pushing yourself and playing with new ideas, being curious and playful, and just seeing what you can come up with. So yeah, I would have never thought by myself to do a deck of cards similar to Tarot that isn't Tarot, but for Freemasons. And so I really liked that John T came to me with this idea. But it took a lot of work to learn and understand about all these things because there's so much um behind all these symbols. Um so yeah, Johnti, I don't know if you want to speak about your experience with it.

SPEAKER_03 25:37

Yeah, sure. For me, it's a bit different because as a writer, I'm I'm much less used to collaborating. I spend a lot of time by myself and in my own head as a writer. So that was new for me, and I think probably really good for me to because it made me kind of slow down and listen more and things, which I think, yeah, I don't get to do that much and should probably do more. When Braddy and I had had various talks on the phone and some face-to-face meetings when that worked with family get-togethers, we'd do a few hours and look at symbols, or I would I would send her examples of of renditions of the pillars or the master's chair, or all these kind of strange things that were new to her. And she would then have to have the job of like I might send her ten examples ten different examples of a rendition of a particular symbol, and she would have to her own way through that. So we would meet and talk about that. We also, in fact, I have to give credit where it's due because Bridie's mum, my wife Jo, suggested that we did a fun Kickstarter campaign. And I was like, oh no, I don't know if I want to do that, and things. But these things cost money as well. So we did do that, and that took a lot of work and kind of took the lead on that. So she worked hard on that, and we did do a Kickstarter campaign, and we reached our target, and that that kind of helped pay for most of our expenses, which was great. Um But yeah, that was hard work, and that was a process that took a good few months to get that right, and this sort of whole process of working out how to do that and how to engage with people was an interesting exercise. But the cards themselves, yeah, I guess overall it probably took a year or so to and then once and then it took a few months to get them printed and find printers and all this sort of stuff. So I guess we're probably not far off, a year and a half in in the whole process.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Nice. What has the reception been like? Have you guys heard positives and negatives? I'm quite far away from the center of English Freemasonry. I'm about as far as you get. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

We're not that close ourselves. So they've only just recently started going out. We had a list of backers from the Kickstarter. So so the cards were sent to Lewis Masonic. Lewis Masonic are acting as our distributors for this. And and so I sent the list of all the backers and their addresses to Lewis Masonic, and over the last couple of weeks they've been sending them out. So feedback is coming in slowly. It's all been positive so far. People saying they're delighted with them. And one guy wrote to me yesterday and he said they're beautiful and I've already incorporated them into my daily practice. Nice. So his daily routine, he'll he's using the cards, and that's lovely to hear, of course. Yeah, it's all been been positive, but there there hasn't been that much yet. Right. One guy told me he put up a couple of TikTok videos, but I haven't been able to find his TikTok, so I haven't seen them. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

We also, as part of the Kickstarter, we had some smaller not prizes, what are they called, John T? Rewards, are they? Or so we had some prints that went out of some of the cards and some kind of gift cards that went out and some other things. So the people who supported us on the Kickstarter have been um being trickled, these little teasers, and we've had some really good response. And we also were just on the day of on the day or the day before of the last day of our Kickstarter, we were a little bit off our target, like we hadn't quite reached it yet. And somebody generously donated the final amount that we needed because she just really wanted to see these cards become a reality. So that was really nice of her, and she's been emailing us some lovely things and posting on Instagram as well. And I think she also, I think it's her husband that's a Freemason, Junti. Yes, that's right. Getting them for gifts for other Freemasons that they know of. And we've also had some nice feedback from people that aren't Freemasons, surprised about how much they can relate to the cards and the messages, even without knowing that much or being necessarily that interested in Freemasonry itself, but just surprised that these cards relate to the world in general.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Nice. Nice. I'm not sure how I missed it. I was not aware until Nick Nick Nick made me aware. And I was just like, oh, look at these. Because I have I have dozens of decks, and some of them remain wrapped. And part of the tradition, the tarot tradition in certain initiatic societies is that to achieve certain accomplishment of certain degrees, you will complete your own deck. And so as you look around, you see so many decks. There's a Masonic tarot deck that I'm familiar with that I have an additional. Yeah, I've got one, yeah. And I quite like it too. Johnti, are are you familiar enough to compare and contrast maybe a little bit? Because of course yours is but yours isn't a tarot deck.

SPEAKER_03 30:44

So mine's not a tarot. Look, I've actually got one that's not opened because I ordered it and they didn't send it to me, and then they sent they ended up sending me two, but then they didn't want it back. But that that's this one. I don't know if you've seen that one. Yes. I've got a I got another one too.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

A di another one.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:01

I like it. I I don't know, I don't really know enough about the tarot, to be honest, but I it's one of those things I always think, well, one day I'm gonna I'm gonna really study this, and I haven't yet, but maybe one day I will.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Okay, then let's talk about that. So this would be editable, because I'm not sure how far or how much you want to say. Do you want to talk a little bit about your both of you, your personal experience or your personal practice, or what that might look like to others that are aspiring to know themselves?

SPEAKER_00 31:31

You mean with tarot specifically?

SPEAKER_01 31:33

No, just anything.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Oh, anything. Oh gosh, I need a minute to think about that then.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

You could draw it with a comparison. Just because nothing exists. Here's why I ask. These things don't exist in a vacuum, right? So anything you've studied is gonna influence your interpretation of this symbol set and are going to be if they catch and people will want to know more, they're gonna want to study what your influences were to create the symbol set the way you did it. Right? And I'm quite familiar with how much ink is spilt over the popular tarot decks in academia right now. And now, because of the things I study, I'm always looking at 100, 120, 150, 200 year old documents and being like, who are these people and what did they know about any of this stuff? And who are they talking to anyway?

unknown 32:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

That's kind of what I'm asking. Is there some queries you want to impart? Is there some ideas you want to put forth that maybe students of the work writ large would want to know?

SPEAKER_03 32:39

My my background, the thing is I've from a very early age, I don't know, by the age of nine or ten, my mum, who was a yoga teacher, taught me to meditate and things, and I can't claim to to do it every day, but I it's still it's something that's been with me all my life. My parents had lived in India, and their bookshelves were had copies of the Bhagavad Gita and very uh yoga raphisms of Patanjali and you know, and more sort of esoteric stuff as well, which I devoured, and so I I've had that background. I've been to Buddhist temples and had Buddhist teachers and Hindu teachers and been to I've had Jewish teachers and Christian teachers, I've been to s synagogues and churches and Sikh gudwaras and and I've I've world religions have been my thing all my life, really. Along with a kind of great sense of devotion and this kind of belief in in in unity, in oneness, in in that underneath all of our differences we're the same. Um I guess one of the first and key teachings that stuck with me was the idea that we're not our bodies, which is a key sort of concept from the Gita, that actually what we are is undying, it's not affected by physicality, and that we live in this world but we're not of it. So for me, eventually all all that kind of weird study, and that included theosophy and and various things, that led me to Freemasonry, which allowed me to still have a kind of sense of devotion, a sense of kind of awe, and a sense of this kind of belief in a higher power of whatever we however we want to define it. It gave me a structure in terms of the ritual, it gave me kind of beautiful language, which is important to me as someone who likes language, but it's free of dogma. Freemasonry kind of has this great framework of possibility without necessarily divine defining it. So it allows a kind of freedom of conscience, a freedom of belief, and a freedom of understanding while still being held in this kind of very nice system of mutual respect and mutual support. That's what's brought me here. And of course, Freemasonry is the idea of symbolism within Freemasonry, that that's the key to what Freemasonry is, in a way. We're always pointed towards these symbols, and all these symbols bring us back to how we behave, um, how we act within ourselves, how we act towards others, and how we relate to this kind of this universal power, this supreme being or whatever that is the unifying force behind us. So kind of that that that's where I'm coming from, in a way. Those are my kind of motivations. I'm not interested in telling anyone how they should behave or how they should what they should believe. I just want people to be kind and to understand, to to go deep, to look within themselves and find that thing that that m they have in common with everyone else. Because I believe that if you look deep within yourself, you find other people, and if you serve other people, you find yourself. That's the key. And I th and Freemasonry is, I think, one of the few institutions that still puts service to others as really a kind of high priority key. And I think that that's still what sets it apart. And for me that's that's a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Well, that's the the religion on which all men can agree.

SPEAKER_03 36:29

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

I love that phrase. That just hearing you talk about it, it's dangerously unitarian of you. Good for you. Because I think it it it's like uh optimism is like that as a revolutionary act anyway. Nothing beautiful. Um Are you still in are you still involved in your craft lodge or in the craft?

SPEAKER_03 36:53

Yeah, I am, but obviously I living in France, I don't get I don't get there very often, but I try and make it a couple of times a year. And ritual-wise, I have a couple of party pieces that they really like me to do. So if there's a call for it, they'll ask me to go and I'll try and go if I can.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

When I make it over to Quator Coronati again, I will be reaching out to see if we can meet. Brighty, I asked, but you haven't answered. Have you collected your thoughts enough to discuss things?

SPEAKER_00 37:23

I have. I have. It was quite funny hearing John T talk about growing up in a home where all these ideas were present because uh me also, and it's just present in some families, and we weren't talking about investing, but we had little altars around the house, and we had we had little rituals and books everywhere and things. So these were the ideas that were also present with me growing up, which is such a vast range of ideas. But I actually rejected that for a long time, and I rejected my kind of spiritual upbringing and spiritual side, and I also rejected my creativity for a long time and wasn't making up for many years whilst I was living in London. And I think I decided one day, it was very over life in general can be quite overwhelming sometimes. And instead of running from those ideas that are that I don't know much about and they overwhelm me, and so I want to avoid them. I decided to start just going towards the things that were overwhelming me and just start learning about them. And I started to learn more about spirituality, different ideas, religions, and ways to view the world. And that slowly brought me back to my creativity. I started to, yeah, just learn more about these things. And as I learned more about them, I had less fear about them because knowledge. I don't know if someone says this knowledge is like the opposite of fear. I wouldn't say that I've necessarily dedicated myself to studying any one particular thing, but have soaked up a lot of ideas from a lot of different places. And I tend to soak it up until a point where it clicks for me inside in my brain. So I'm not that good at verbalizing these big ideas, but I just learn about anything I can learn about to the point where it clicks for myself. And that includes a lot of these different modalities, like with Tarot. I dabble. I'm in no way an expert. I just Google what the cards mean when I do it. But I enjoy it because it's a way to explore the world that overwhelms me. So that's also what these cards are for. And there's so many other modalities that we can use to explore this crazy world.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

It is existence is a little overwhelming. And think of all our predecessors who stood on their toes to try and make sense of it for those of us who came behind them. Oh and and how yeah, and how difficult it was to pass this on down to us, but thanks to them, and then and then we load it into AI and ask it questions rather than asking ourselves those questions. It's just uh it's just another form of mirror work, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:02

I feel like at the moment people uh have gone towards AI and now it's springing back as things tend to do, like the pendulum's swinging backwards. People are really valuing these like analog physical items. So that's also why I'm excited in a way to release something like this in this day and age and in this exact moment, because it's the opposite of what's happening, and it's getting a little bit more value, it's almost like a record in a world of Spotify. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 40:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Look, Freemasonry itself is a reflection of a wider society and a certain philosophical idea. And what will what will our progeny fifty or a hundred years from now, what working tool will they create to represent a tool that thinks for itself or a tool that gives us back what we put into it in a different way? Right? In in lots of ways, the study of cards like this, of symbol sets like this, is the same study, the same contemplative study. It's always been it's seeking knowledge of the self, right? However you would put it. Thanks. Thanks again, Jaunty and Brighty, for coming. Do you guys either do either of you have a question for me?

SPEAKER_03 41:29

I'm I guess I'm interested in Do you think like mainstream Canadian Freemasons share share similar ideas about Freemasonry to you? Do you think or do you think you're quite unusual in terms of your kind of esoteric bent, if you like?

SPEAKER_01 41:51

I think globally you're asking specifically about Canadian Freemasons. I would have backed that up. I think globally, less Freemasons think the way I do specifically about Freemasonry than should. Yes. However, the my idea of freedom of conscience, that's a cornerstone of a polite human society, right? Not just Freemasonry, but it's one of the things that Freemasonry gives to society. Rotational leadership, the idea that people in charge are there because we they have the consent of the governed, that this idea, that's the rotational leadership, is something else that Freemasonry has gifted the world. I think, however, as somebody who's below the median age, not just in Canada, but I think across the wider English Freemasonry and colonial Freemasonry, I think the further below the median age you get, the more people think like me. And I don't, and it's not specifically my spiritual tradition or my philosophical tradition, the more people think we need a lodge experience that's going to foster spiritual seeking, and we need a third-way organization that's going to resist dogma and encroachment by monarchists and papists and people who want to set up a new priesthood to control other people because their invisible friend says X.

SPEAKER_03 43:17

Be honest, that that's always been for me, I always think that's always been a kind of really important role that Freemasonry has played through the Enlightenment and everything. It's like it's held on to something that is really important. That kind of freedom of conscience, freedom of thought, freedom of whatever, yeah. Sure. And I think you're right. I think we're seeing another a new kind of manifestation of that in a way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

I'm thrilled to say that in this jurisdiction, I'm free to have the freedom of to express the freedom of conscience and express these ideas. And the work I do reinforces that. And I am continually Making all the right people really angry. And I think that's the true test of Masonic leadership is that if you're not if you're not pissing off certain people regularly, you're not doing it for I mean we're part of a big institution.

SPEAKER_03 44:14

We know that big institutions have have there's an issue with big institutions. Sure. Automatically, even one as good as Freemasonry. There are issues.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

And that again, I I think the institutional resistance to change is always amusing to me. And I'm constantly saying the young Freemasons chafing at the way the old guys do stuff. I'm just like, make big plans. Do you do you and make big plans because the old guys are gonna die. And then it's our institution to do with as we see fit. And i i if you think if you think moving it and I think Freemasonry is probably the best exemplar of a truly philosophically and politically centrist organization and a big tent organization. If you think it's not far enough one way or the other, just bide your time. Know yourself, study yourself, and learn your rituals. There are a few things that get you respect in this organization, like being able to recite ritual. Thanks so much for coming. I know it's getting later in your day over there.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Let us know what you think when you get the card.

SPEAKER_03 45:26

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

I'll shoot a video. I'll shoot a video to unbox and then maybe some short meditations on it and post it on my page, and I'll make sure to tag you guys on whatever social media you're on. You guys have a great day. Yeah, and you. Thanks for listening today. You could support the show by liking, sharing, and subscribing on your favorite podcast syndicator. Even more helpful, leave us a review. Coming up on The Mystic Tie, EFC Keynote Brother Lon Milo Duquette, EFC 2026 Co-organizers Brother Ken Lane and Brother Brett Wolf, and Brother Ike Baker previews his talk at Esotericism and Freemasonry Conference. Stay tuned. We are looking to create a directory of Freemasonic events and publications. If you are aware of something coming up, please let me know by email. In the meantime, check out the Masonic Conference's website at Masonic Conferences.com. Esotericism and Freemasonry Conference will be held Saturday, September 19th. Our keynote speaker will be Brother Lon Milo Duquette, author of The Tarot Architect. Brothers Ike Baker, Doug Russell, Dago Rodriguez, and Joseph Wages are all slated to present. Get your tickets at Esoteric Masonry.com. For other events, check out our calendar at mysticktie.com. And don't forget to sign up for our newsletter while you are there. Graphics and web hosting are by Artsable Creative. A special thanks to Organist for our theme music. Happy to meet. Story to part. And happy to meet again.