Episode 60 - Rich Casement on Finding Purpose Beyond Booze: A Flat-Pack Approach to Sustainable Sobriety and Sober Living

Ever noticed the similarities between assembling IKEA furniture and getting sober? Both can feel overwhelming at first—lots of pieces, unclear instructions, and the temptation to give up. But just like with those Scandinavian flat-pack puzzles, sobriety comes together step by step. Each day is another piece that builds a stronger, more resilient you.

And here’s the thing: the way you tackle those puzzles reflects how you approach life’s challenges. There’s no one-size-fits-all method. What works for someone else might not work for you—and that’s okay.

That’s where this podcast comes in. Flat-Pack Sober is here to guide you through the process with insight, support, and a touch of humor—helping you put the pieces of your sober life together in a way that fits you best.

Have you ever felt stuck between who you used to be and the person you want to become in sobriety? Wondered how to fill the space alcohol once occupied, or what it takes to build a new life step-by-step when you leave the drinking world—and maybe even a drinking-related career—behind?

This episode features Rich Casement, creator of Clean Break and a former alcohol industry pro who turned his back on booze to find freedom, purpose, and joy. Rich dives deep with host Duncan Bhaskaran Brown into his powerful journey: from growing up around celebratory drinking, through a full-on hospitality career, to experiencing the pivotal moment he realized alcohol no longer served him—vocationally or personally.

Key themes include: overcoming ingrained drinking culture, tackling self-limiting beliefs, handling the emotional “void” after quitting alcohol, and discovering the power of physical activity (especially running) as a tool for mental well-being. Rich shares wisdom on the importance of values, how to realign your life as sobriety evolves, and finding adventure instead of “missing out.”

Tying it all together, Rich and Duncan explore the Flat-Pack Sober philosophy: building your alcohol-free life, piece by piece, like assembling sturdy furniture you can trust. It’s about trial, patience, and learning what fits for you—plus, a few extra “screws” (or life lessons) that come with each attempt.

Tune in for inspiration, practical strategies, and straight-talking encouragement—whether you’re just assembling your sober toolkit, hitting your stri

Thank you for listening and being a vital part of the Flat-Pack Sober community. Together, we’re building life one sober piece at a time. Stay tuned, stay strong, and keep assembling the best version of yourself!

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Chapters

• 0:00 Discover Your Sober Style
• 4:37 80s & 90s UK Drinking Culture
• 8:22 University Drinking: From Hobby to Career
• 12:12 Struggles with Alcohol in Career
• 15:41 Awareness and Change from Alcohol

Transcript

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:00:00]:
What is your name?

Rich Casement [00:00:02]:
My name's Rich.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:00:03]:
And who is your sober hero?

Rich Casement [00:00:06]:
My sober hero is also called Rich. It's called Rich Roll Finding Ultra Fame and obviously the Rich Roll podcast now as well, which most people will be familiar with, is a big, a big influence in me, both in terms of kind of sobriety, but then also in terms of endurance racing as well.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:00:24]:
So do you prefer books, films or music?

Rich Casement [00:00:27]:
I tend to prefer books these days. It sort of changed over the years. I think in my younger hedonistic days it was music and then probably more into films.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:00:37]:
What's a book, film or piece of music that has helped you in your recovery journey?

Rich Casement [00:00:41]:
It's the Daily Stoic. I just think it's a. It's just a great book. You know, it's got 366, you know, meditations or stoic principles in there, which you know from thousands of years ago, but still very relevant today. But there's always something in there which is relevant to what's going on in your life in that particular moment.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:00:58]:
Would you rather have fame or fortune?

Rich Casement [00:01:00]:
I think I would rather have the. But the thing makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable because it would give me the best opportunity, I think, to build a legacy.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:01:09]:
What is your ideal Friday night look like?

Rich Casement [00:01:13]:
Ah, well, we're quite. We've got two kids, two young children, they're 8 and 11. They go to Stagecoach on a Friday night now for three hours between 4:30 and 7:30, which is an absolute dream because it's the one time of the week where me and my wife know we've got like a period of like normal adulting to be done. Just three hours of quality time between the two of us, which I think as parents of young children is really important to do.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:01:37]:
Do you like ikea?

Rich Casement [00:01:39]:
I don't mind the products. I'm not sure about the place. Ikea. It's just a nightmare, isn't it, that sort of. That you have to go around the whole bloody thing.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:01:51]:
Okay then, if I gave you some IKEA flat pack to assemble, what would be your approach? Would you get a friend to help you out? Would you look at the instructions thoroughly? Would you just get stuck in or would you kind of lay it all out, look at the picture, have a about it and then get started?

Rich Casement [00:02:09]:
I would be very stubborn and a typical bloke and think I'm going to do this all myself. But I would just remind, I'd definitely get the instructions out and I would treat it a bit like I bit like I do recommendations to my running coaching clients and and that is to say trust the pro, stick to the plan and trust the process.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:02:26]:
Plugged your answers into our proprietary algorithm beyond and what he has concluded is that your soba style is the brain. So it's all about thinking and learning for you. So if the listeners would like to learn a little bit more about their sober styles then they can visit flatpaksober.com or you could just actually listen to pet AI Bjorn telling you all about it for a second right now.

Bjorn [00:02:58]:
Do you get discouraged when the gurus recommend things that just don't work for you? That's why you need to know your sober style. Understanding how you approach alcohol free living will help you make the most of what you hear. Including the Flatpak sober. Learning how you solve problems won't just increase your self awareness, it'll make cutting through all the recovery information much easier and that'll make your alcohol free life solid like some well built furniture. Take the sober style quiz for free@FlatPackSober.com.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:03:34]:
Hey there sober superstars. Welcome to Flatpak Sober, your catalog of tips, tricks and tactics to design your alcohol free life. Now we have reached a very important point in the life of the podcast. This is the last ever episode in season two. So we're going to take a month off and we'll be back again with season three. Bigger, better, slightly worse jokes. I don't know, we've got some stuff planned. You'll find out all about that after our little break. But I thought I'd end it on a bang. I thought I'd end it with the wonderful Richard Caseman. Rich, like rich role, I suppose. And he's gonna tell us all about the fantastic stuff he does to, to take a clean break. So Rich, thank you very much for joining us today.

Rich Casement [00:04:24]:
Thank you very much for having me, Duncan. Appreciate it. What great intro as well.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:04:28]:
That's cool. That's cool. So, well, let's, let's get right down to it. Alcohol. Where did you come across it?

Rich Casement [00:04:37]:
Well, probably like a lot of people in our sort of age bracket in, in sort of the 40s, it was, it was fairly ingrained into culture in the UK, as many people know, back in the 80s and the 90s. And yeah, I, I would probably have first had a drink I think when I was at my local sports club. My dad used to play hockey and cricket on a weekend and I used to kind of go and follow him, go with him on a Saturday afternoon, give my mum a bit of, bit of space and yeah, you know, he was rounding the. The men's teams and they would all be obviously, you know, celebrating or commiserating their. Their performances on the pitch after their. Their matches. And. Yeah, and I think from probably about the age of sort of 12, 13, you know, it was almost like a ceremonious. You'd kind of. You'd get the opportunity to have like a half pint of shandy or, you know, and it was that sort of. That, I suppose, that feeling of being included, you know, as a young lad with your dad and his teammates. And it was almost like a ceremonious kind of thing. It's like, oh, you know, now you're. Now you're coming into manhood, you know, now you're allowed to be part of. Part of the. Part of the men, part of the group. So I think that's. That's where it first sort of started to me. And yeah, I, I played a lot of sport myself from, From a young age and of course, then ceremonious behaviors and, and, you know, the sort of the. The. The aspect of, you know, rejoicing your wins or commiserating your losses, you know, would be a big part of that. Drinking would be a big part of that. And, yeah, I think that that's where it sort of first came around for me. And, And I would, Yeah, I would go out on weekends, you know, with my friends from. I was given quite a lot of flexibility as a kid. Like, I think I went on my first lads holiday to Majorca when I was 16. I remember it vividly because we came down on the first morning having. With a stinking hangover, having got there and got really drunk the night before and the whole place was silent. It was one of those big kind of family sort of hotels in Majorca where, you know, I think it was in Magalu for Palmer around there. And you've got the swimming pool and then you've got the big, huge, great big sort of dining areas with tables. And then we went in there and everyone was in there and finish their breakfast and everyone was stone cold sober. And we were. We kind of walked in, sort of slightly hung over, a bit noisy, a bit loud. Me and my best mate and sort of were like, oh, what's going on here? This is a bit weird, and sort of sat down thinking, this is all a bit strange, and then looked up at the screen and it was. It was a TV showing covering Princess Diana's death. So that was a really sort of somber moment. It was like, oh, God, all right, okay. We need to be a bit more respectful here. But yeah, so I was around, you know, I was around alcohol mainly, mainly through sports and more than anything else from, from a very young age. And then that, that, that bled into university again, more, you know, a lot more drinking in association with sports, again, the sort of, the ceremonies that are involved, you know, in the, the university sports teams. So yeah, and it just kind of continued really from there.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:07:51]:
So there's a lot, I mean, there's a lot in that. You know, I never, never played hockey. Come across a few hockey players. Tends to be a fairly hard charging sport, doesn't it? So there's like that toughness and that manliness that you get associated with, with drinking, not just being an adult, but being, being a proper man. So you've got all of that, you've taken all of that on board. You got through university, you got out into the real world doing a lot of drinking then.

Rich Casement [00:08:22]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, drinking was just, just part of life through university, you know, on a, you know, on a daily basis, let's face it, you know, when you were capable of actually handling like the hangovers and, you know, and sort of almost brushing them off, you know, in your sort of late teens, early 20s, you know, it felt like it was easy, didn't it really? You felt almost indestructible in many ways. You know, the easiest way to overcome a hangover was to go and get a fry up and go and go and have a, another pint or a Bloody Mary with that fry up. So yeah, when I went to university, I went, having worked in bars and restaurants and, and having taken a year off to do a bit traveling around the world as well, I went to study hospitality management. So I kind of like was leading into a world of, of basically being able to use my, my hobby of drinking as part of my university degree and then thinking around a career going forward as well. So, you know, the, the alcohol, the alcohol in my life wasn't just a big part of my life as a consumer. It became a big part of my life vocationally as well for my career because, you know, the, the university degree, the hospitality management led into me working within hospitality, managing bars and restaurants. So kind of being surrounded by booze the whole time and of course it was. I, I think this is where I first sort of fell in love with the concept of being, which has led on to us probably a more virtuous approach to being in service with others now. Whereas back then it was obviously, you know, the service, it was all about giving good service to customers and giving them that hospitality experience that they're looking for food with, not just with drink. I always worked in venues where it was sort of food and drink. But yeah, and then, you know, that, that would lead to, you know, late nights with the team, you know, cleaning the line on a Friday, Saturday night, there's always going to be jugs of beer knocking around. Inevitably what would happen is you would, you know, you would get bought drinks by customers as well. So you'd have like, you know, you might have a couple of receipts at the end of the night where you've got a couple of drinks that you've been born, you could sort of cash those in. So it kind of, yeah, it just became such a big part of my life, you know, inside of work, on a personal level, but also on a vocational level.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:10:59]:
Yeah, that's kind of interesting, isn't it? It's like you tried to turn your passion into your job. You just thought that your passion was alcohol and it turned out to be the service of other people. So that's, I guess that's quite interesting, isn't it? Anywho. Yeah, I mean, did it. How did it reach a kind of a head? How did it get to a point where you thought this is enough, this is time for me to do something?

Rich Casement [00:11:26]:
Yeah, I think, I think my, my drinking was. Was probably at its peak through the uni day, certainly through my 20s, and it was drinking and, and taking drugs as well. So it was like, you know, it was clubbing, it was definitely going out, you know, late nights, all night, parties, festivals, raves, all this kind of stuff. So it was pretty hedonistic. And you know, I think like, alcohol was a bit of a gateway drug for me in many ways to other things because, you know, I would inev. Ever take other drugs when I'd be after I'd been drinking. So, you know, I can certainly look back and see that and appreciate that now. Through my 30s, my relationship with alcohol started to change. I started to really struggle with the, with the both initially the physical impact of drinking, like really quite crippling hangovers, headaches, you know, and I could never understand like people like my mates who would just be like, who would bounce up and seem to be absolutely fine and could, you know, could get up and function normally, get up at a normal time, you know, would seem to be. And by this point as well, in my 30s, I'd moved away from hospitality management because I'd sort of recognized that there was lots of sacrifices I was making on a personal level with regards to giving up, you know, weekends and, and Christmases and missing out on like family members, big birthdays and things like that. So I moved away from hospitality management and I actually went into, I went to recruitment initially and started recruiting people for the hospitality hospitality industry. But then I went into sales roles within the alcohol industry. So I kind of became the, the sort of the pusher or the peddler if you like. So almost like the facilitator working for different drinks brands, which of course meant I was still able to get the, the stuff, you know, the great experience of, of, you know, having my hands on, on the substance, on the alcohol, being in the bars, you know, talking to the bartenders, getting all the freebies, getting all the opportunities that I had before. But I was working a sort of a fairly normal, you know, shift, if you like, Monday to Friday. And then my weekends were free. And then of course that, that freed up even more time at the weekends, you know, to get pissed ultimately. So it was, it was definitely through my 30s when, when that part of my career evolved and I just found that like, it was almost like a. Drinking was kind of like a badge of honor if you worked in the industry. You know, I, I worked with. So for example, I worked with Jagermeister, the brand Jagermeister, which, you know, anyone of, of any age probably recognizes that brand. And, you know, it was, it was just synonymous with, you know, doing shots at the bar at any time. And it was like a sort of a celebratory moment and it was almost sort of expected, you know, and I never particularly enjoyed doing it, but I just kind of went with it. And I think it just got to a point in my, in my 30s where actually those, those physical effects, headaches, hangovers, lethargy, you know, and then that started to bleed into kind of mental angst as well, like anxiety and, and, you know, periods of depression and, and low mood as well. And then, yeah, it kind of progressively got worse and worse to the point where my late 30s, I just started taking longer breaks. So I do dry January and then like I do dry January plus February and then I do dry January, February and March. So I do sort of three month stints without boozing and get all the benefits. But then inevitably I'd always end up going back that, to drinking. You know, it was, it was part of my, part of my job ultimately. And I think, you know, for several years before I stopped, I kind of had in the back of my Hat my mind, you know, when people say, oh, I'm never drinking again and that, and then people sort of say it and then by kind of 3 o' clock in the afternoon, you've got a glass of red wine in your hand, sort of thing, or a pile of shandy, whatever. Like, for me it was, it really became something which I really thought was going to happen at some point. I just thought progressively not. And it's this cycle of change, isn't it, raising the awareness. And I was kind of everything, every hangover I had was progressively moving me towards this sort of idea of I'm not sure I'm getting anything from this anymore. And then I just got to, you know, the stage in my late 30s when obviously we had kids and, you know, the hangovers don't just affect you, they affect other people around you, you know, they affect your family, they affect the kids, you know, they affect your relationship with your partner, you know, if you're not showing up for her or not showing up for the kids as well. And then there's that, that shame and that guilt that compounds the effects as well. And yeah, and then we got to Covid and typically, like most people, the first couple of months of COVID was very, very nice weather. I was on furlough because the hospitality industry shut down and, you know, it was another day with a Y at the end of it. So it was time to have a glass of rose at midday or a gin and Sonic. And it didn't. It. It was like that for a bit. But I quickly realized that that wasn't going to be a helpful way to spend this period. And actually that's when I pivoted more into focusing on, on exercise and using my, my hour a day for, for generally for running for me. And that was kind of almost like my, my therapy in that period. And I would still find that there was periods when I'd drink in excess. I remember a couple of really ridiculous times when I was drinking in Covid, which were just like embarrassing to look back on, you know, sort of things that I'd done. And then when we came out of COVID and the hospitality industry reopened and obviously we went back to work, something had changed, something in me had changed and, and I couldn't work out what it was and I couldn't get back into work. Like the thing that I'd been doing for 20 years, you know, working in that industry, that career that I'd built to a pretty senior reasonable level, doing the job that was ultimately almost like a A dream job for me. By that stage, I just couldn't get back into it and I couldn't pinpoint what was going on. I knew something wasn't right and I knew there was something that, you know, that just didn't sit well with me. I was essentially, I was depressed. I remember thinking midway through 2021, when covered restrictions finally started to fully lift. I remember, you know, processing some really dark thoughts at one point and thinking, yeah, this is, this isn't right. And alcohol wasn't the root cause of the problem, but I certainly knew it wasn't helping. And then over the course of the next sort of six months, in the second half of 2021, I think really was where, you know, I, I really started to solidify this idea that I was going to take a break, I was going to take a clean break. And I remember running the Manchester Marathon in the October of 2021 and driving over there from Leeds to Manchester and in the morning by myself, listening to a Mel Robbins podcast. And there was something that said in that podcast that just brought me to tears. And I remember thinking in that moment, Christ, like, something's not right here. I, I need to do something about this. I need to get some help. I need to sort myself out. Ran the marathon, got a pb, celebrated, was, you know, physically in the best shape of my life, but mentally I was, was not in a great place at all. And then, typical bloke, I didn't do anything, actually do anything about it for a couple more months. Made the decision that I was gonna take a break from drinking. I'd signed up to a. After just reading Rich Roll Finding Ultra, actually I decided I was going to sign up to a half distance, half iron distance triathlon, which was in the June of 2022. And my excuse, that was my excuse because we need an excuse why we don't, why we don't take drugs and drink alcohol, don't we? So my excuse was that I was training for this event so that, you know, if anyone asked me why I wasn't drinking, I've just said, well, I've just got a big triathlon event in summer of 2022, June 2022. So it's like, oh, okay, yeah, no worries. And that was it really. And I sort of knew and I stopped on the 30th of December, 2021. And I sort of knew in the back of my head, if I got to the, to that point, six months to the event without drinking, I kind of knew deep down inside that I Might not rush back to it, but I was still working in the alcohol industry, obviously, as well. So I. I just. I didn't think about what that would mean for my career. I just thought, thought, I'm gonna take a break. I know I'm gonna get the benefits. I know it's going to help me with doing this event. I need to train at a certain level and alcohol's not conducive to that. I'll work the rest of it out later. And within a couple of months, again, you know, I was like, getting all the benefits. And I just knew that there was a good chance I wasn't going to go back to it. And then when I did that event, you know, my mates were like, oh, brilliant, you've done that. Great. You're gonna start drinking again. I was like, no, I don't want to, I don't want to. Why would I? I'm getting all of these, you know, all these benefits physically, mentally. And I'd started working with coaches at that point as well, who were helping me to cement and crystallize the. The, you know, the benefits I was getting. Certainly on a physical level, they were helping me to unpick some of the stuff that I was going through, men that I'd been going through mentally, you know, in terms of, you know, belief systems, values, other habits as well, which, you know, were needed to be unpicked and. And just, you know, just live myself, live my life in a. In a better way, really. So, yeah, so that was. That was how that panned out.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:20:53]:
So it wasn't just stopping drinking, it was starting living and, you know, looking at the broader kind of stuff. Although I am slightly disappointed in you because you said you like films earlier, although you've clearly never seen Scarface, or at least you forgot that bit where he tells you not to get high on your own supply, which seems like what you were doing, working in the alcohol industry and drinking it. But. So there was kind of a lot of thinking, a lot of reading and understanding a lot of coaches. And then, you know, you'd kind of got to the point where you were just enjoying not drinking. What did you end up doing about the job, though? I mean, how did you get out of the alcohol industry? Or do you still work there?

Rich Casement [00:21:40]:
I don't still work there, no, no, I. Yeah, it was. It's difficult because that was all I'd ever known, you know, since pretty much since leaving school. It's over 20 years and. And I'd sort of invested a lot of my time and energy and, and efforts into kind of carving out a career, quite a successful career as well. And you know, for the, and look, I think for the vast majority of that period, like I, I look back back, you know, and think I had a great career. You know, I, I really enjoyed it. I met some amazing people. I got to travel the world, you know, visited loads of different countries, you know, met you know, generations old wine producers in, in, you know, the middle of nowhere in Rioca and you know, the, the Italian, Italy and France. And you know, these are people that aren't, you know, they are not drug dealers trying to do anyone any harm. These are like generations old family businesses that have been around for, for centuries. They are just trying to create a living and, and they have a lot of them have some incredible stories to tell, you know. And this is where I think like, like I, I take a slight, I have a slightly different view on, on, on alcohol and the alcohol industry. I think to some people in the cybersphere and like I, I certainly don't hate alcohol. I, My, my belief is that alcohol is not the problem. You know, it's often used as the solution to the, to the problems and that was the case for me. But I think actually it's the relationship that we have with, with, with alcohol that's the problem certainly in our society. Because you know, if alcohol was the problem then everyone would have a problem with it. You would think, you would assume, and that's not the case. So I, I think, you know, I, I look back favorably in my career so I would never have any regrets about it. It just got to the point where as a consumer it wasn't serving me anymore. You know, I wasn't enjoying the effects that I was having on alcohol. And when I removed it I realized actually that, that it didn't align with my values anymore because my, my values pivoted to. Away from you know, sort of short term pleasurable experiences. It, My values moved away from the things that I, that I perceived as value in my 20s and 30s and, and moved towards, you know, valuing more more around health and well, being more about, you know, know, opportunity and adventure, more about being in service of other people and giving back positively. So I didn't feel that that career aligned with my values anymore. And I, yeah, I think it was probably around the time that I did that event, you know, the triathlon event. And I just thought this isn't going anywhere and I had to make that decision. The problem was for me as I didn't know what I wanted to do. I knew what I didn't want to do anymore, but I didn't have a clue what I wanted to do do, because that's all I'd done for 20 years and I didn't have, I didn't even finish my degree. You know, I quit my degree. So I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I ended up finding sort of a Segway job, which wasn't the right job. I wasn't right for them and they weren't right for me, but it was the right thing at the right time to help me move out of what I, what I wasn't meant to be doing. And in that period between, what was it, August, sort of July, August 2022 and September, October 2022, sort of a three month probation period of that job was when I kind of came up with the concept of, of Clean Break, which is now my lifestyle brand. And, and, and that started life as an idea to write a book. Originally. Quickly realized that that wouldn't be a particularly good source of income for me or sustainable source of income, at least not the moment. But there was something in it that I really liked. And I went on a retreat with my coaches and that was where I kind of was able to do a lot of work around limiting beliefs and, and kind of stories that I told myself for many, many years about, you know, self worth and not being good enough or not being able to do X, Y and Z, or I could never start my own business. I've got enough money, haven't got enough skills, haven't got enough knowledge, all this kind of crap, these stories that we tell ourselves and worked through that and came back from that and was like, like, yeah, I'm gonna launch my own. I'm gonna launch my own business. I'm gonna launch my own brand. And then funnily enough, that Segway job let me go because they realized as much as I did that I wasn't right for them and they weren't right for me. And I remember my boss at the time bringing me in on a Monday morning, saying, yeah, I know this is for you, thinking it's going to be probation, probation review. But actually, we're gonna, we're gonna let you go. We're not gonna renew your contract. We're gonna let you go as of today. And I could see he was really nervous. We were, we were quite close. We became quite good friends and, you know, had a lot of admiration for him. And he'd realized that, that, you know, I'D taken a big, a big risk in leaving that career to join them. So I think he, he recognized, you know, I had family at home and you know, he felt uncomfortable with letting me go, but it was the right thing to do. And I just remember stopping and pausing for a second or two and looking at him and saying thank you. And he kind of said, well, what do you mean? I don't understand. And I just said, well, I've got this idea that I've come up with and I'm going to do it anyway. I was probably just going to tread water here for six months, which wouldn't have done you any favors and wouldn't done me any favors, but actually by letting me go, you know, this is the catalyst to me going and, and throwing myself into this idea that I've got. And I told him and I explained what it was and he just went, brilliant. He said, fair play. It sounds awesome. I've got huge respect for you for doing that. Good luck. If there's anything I can do to help you, then let me know and then the rest is history. Really?

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:27:01]:
Yeah. No, that's, that's, that's beautiful. Look, you've said a lot of things that, that I really like the sound of values, self limiting beliefs, all of that sort of stuff. And I know that's the kind of work that you do these days. So we will get into that in one second. But Bjorn is tapping me on the shoulder and reminding me that he's got something else to share. So we'll let him take the stage.

Bjorn [00:27:22]:
You've listened this far. You're definitely a part of a flatback sober family. Why not make it official by joining the Facebook group? It's full of tips, tricks and tactics to help you design your alcohol free life. You'll get sneak peeks, exclusive content, great offers and VIP tickets for our events. And you know that community is crucial for alcohol free living. It's like the lingonberry jam for your meatballs. Join now by searching for Flatpak Sober on Facebook or visiting flatpacksober.com you'll be welcome even if you don't want to follow the arrows.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:28:02]:
Welcome back everybody. I'm joined today by Rich Casement, the, the, the famous guy from the Clean Break stuff. So Rich, you said something that I think really kind of resonated with me. Probably resonated with a lot of people in that kind of early stage when they just stop drinking. You know, I don't know what I want to do, but I do know what I don't want to do. So how do you get from just simply knowing what you don't want to do anymore to getting to where you want to be and, you know, understanding what your kind of mission and purpose is?

Rich Casement [00:28:39]:
Yeah, I think from one of the. One of the analogies I often use when it comes to self development, which I think is something that a lot of people get to a point in their life, certainly in sort of the middle of their life, if you like. I think a lot of people call it a midlife crisis. I don't see it as a crisis. I just think it's a phase, you know, it's a new phase that you're coming into. And a new phase requires a new approach and it requires, you know, new, new beliefs and, and a new way of looking at things. And I think for a lot of people, they get to that stage where it's like, oh, actually, like, I need to do something different. You know, going away and reading books and, you know, bringing all this new stuff in, whether it's listening to podcasts, reading books, all of this kind of stuff. And that's great and that's brilliant for sort of of raising awareness, if you like. But, you know, knowing what you need to do and not actually doing it is almost like not knowing what you need to do anyway. So I think for me it's. It's about the famous quote that I go back to is Michelangelo, when he was creating the statue of David, was asked, ah, this is just incredible. What an incredible thing you've created. How did you have the vision to know what you were going to create? And he just said, well, I didn't. I just started picking, unpicking the bits that weren't meant to be there, that I knew weren't meant to be there. And this is what I was left with. And I think that's what I think that's for a lot of people, what, what I tend to advise people to do. You know, it's kind of the sort of the idea of true self we talk about. People say, oh, you know, you show your true colors when you're drunk. It's like, well, no, that's not true at all. You show a version of yourself which is intoxicated with a substance that makes you do and say things that you wouldn't normally do or say if you were sober. So I don't think it's a true version of ourselves. I think it's a conditioned version of ourselves that's been created by society, societies, you know, kind of matrix that is, you know, ultimately driven and influenced by people with a lot of money that can spend money on, on very clever, influential marketing campaigns. Because ultimately marketing is, is essentially emotional blackmail. And when you're emotionally blackmailed into thinking that you need to be taking a drug for X, Y and Z, which is highly addictive, readily available, socially acceptable, in fact, it's even encouraged, that's a pretty dangerous recipe. So, yeah, that, that's the kind of problem that sort of, I tend to have with regards to alcohol. And I think what, what people should, what people should do is, is, you know, look at it in terms of, of creating. When you, when you, when you stop drinking, you kind of almost given yourself a blank canvas, you know. Yes. For many people you're creating a void in your life. And it was the case for me, you know, that void that, that me removing alcohol from my life on a personal and a vocational level created a massive void. You know, I, I, I didn't have the, the thing that I lent on for, you know, for, for socializing with my mates. I no longer had the things, thing that was holding on to the thing that was giving me a career. So, so there was a massive loss of identity there on very, very different levels. And it did create a void in my life. But it was when I was capable, when I would found the, the sort of, the mindset to be able to flip that belief and actually see that void as an opportunity rather than something that I was missing out of some, some form of scarcity. That void was creating me opportunities to go and almost like create my own masterpiece. It was like, right, and this powerful coaching question is, if you knew you couldn't fail and no one was judging you, what would you do? It's like, right, okay, I've got this blank canvas. I've got this opportunity to pretty much reinvent myself almost at the moment and almost start from scratch, which is difficult when you're in your mid, early mid-40s to do and you've got two kids and you've got responsibilities and bills to pay and all that kind of stuff. But, but having that, having that choice, knowing that we've all got that choice around what we believe, we can't control the things that happen to us in our lives, you know, though most of that is out of our control, whatever that, whatever those events are, but we all have, we all have ownership and agency over being able to control and choose the, what we believe, believe about those situations. So in those, in that moment, I could choose to believe that I I'd sacrificed a 20 young year career. I could choose to believe that, you know, I'd wasted my university degree, university time doing some pursuing something that never, that never led to anything. But what I actually chose is to believe that everything that had happened to me up until that point in my life had brought me to that situation. And I was now in a very, very lucky position. And I was very grateful to be able to use that, that channel, that experience and that knowledge that I'd had to do something, to do something better, to do something different and to give something back in many ways. And so, you know, for me it was about right, what do I want to create, who do I want to become and who do I want to help? And that's where Clean Break kind of came from. Because originally it started life as the idea for a book, Clean Break My Messy Divorce from Alcohol, which I, I will still write at some point. And then it kind of pivoted into this idea actually like Clean Break stands for taking a clean break from things that are no longer serving you in your life. Life, which is exactly what I did. I took a clean break. I decided to make a clean break away from the things that were no longer serving me in my life. You know, and it's this idea of chipping away and removing the things, parts of you that aren't meant to be there. Because we all, we're all conditioned, you know, that true version of ourselves is us when we are 11, 12, 13 years old, you know, when we don't, when we, when we're uninhibited, where we, we're not influenced by, by alcohol or drugs or most of us aren't anyway, you know, we're running around with our friends, playing on our bikes, you know, with, we're free. We have that freedom of expression without, you know, that fear of sort of judgment, you know, we'll, we'll say and behave in the way that we, we think is most appropriate in the, in the moment without worrying about the future or regretting the past decisions. And so going back to that sort of true version of yourself, I think is where people need to get to or where I encourage people to get to when I'm coaching them.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:34:43]:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's, that's such a powerful place to be, isn't it? To be. I don't want to use the word authentic or congruent because they're a bit cliched and both kind of fairly awful. But it's being, you know, aligned with who you are. And making everything kind of line up. And I guess, you know, that, that, that clean break thing, it's not simply about chipping away, is it? It's not simply about making that break. It's actually about embracing it and enjoying what remains rather than worrying about what you've left on the floor, you know, what you've kind of got rid of. Celebrating what, what you do have, rather than being sad about what you've lost. Is that kind of one of the things that you think about or work on?

Rich Casement [00:35:34]:
Yeah, it absolutely is. Yeah. You know, what you said there in terms of sort of alignment and, and trying to live, you know, live your life and, and, you know, your, your actions that you take on a daily basis, you know, if, if they're not aligned to your values, then, you know, the likelihood is there's going to be some friction in your life. You know, you're going to find that you, you feel misaligned and something feels a little bit off. So. And those values do change over time. You know, my values now are different to my values in my 20s, 20s, in my 30s. You know, I think that's why it's important to do that reflective piece every few years and, and just revisit those. But yeah, it's absolutely, it's about not thinking, not seeing it as, as scarcity, not seeing it as sort of missing out, but it's, you know, what, what, what can you now create going forward? What, what does this. One of my values now is to seek opportunity and adventure. So everything that I do aligns to the values. Does what I'm doing give me, allow me to seek opportunity and adventure, you know, and, and that comes with a degree of not knowing the answer or not knowing the outcome. You know, not necessarily not knowing how to do something at first, but doing it anyway. And also not knowing, not knowing whether it's going to be successful or not, but doing it anyway, you know, without the fear of getting it wrong. Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:36:55]:
Yeah. Funnily enough, my values in my 20th, 20s and 30s were pretty much, where's my next drink coming from? Not sure that necessarily counts as a value, but it was very much top of mind. So they, they have changed a little bit, shall we say. But you mentioned kind of like revisiting your values every few years. How do you kind of help or suggest that people go about doing that? What's, what's a good way to get started with uncovering those values?

Rich Casement [00:37:25]:
Yeah, values are essentially what, what matters to you, what, what's important to you, you know, what Are the, what are the things that you, you value in life? You know, whether it's health, well being, you know, for some people it might be more material possessions, and that's absolutely fine. You know, what, what is it that drives you? What is it that motivates you? And, and I think, you know, you start with, you know, the list of the long lists of values that you can find online, you know, and some of them might, might be. Be relevant. Some of them, you know, might be purposeful for you, but other. Others might not. But I think distilling those down into, you know, a list of sort of 8 to 10 words values, you know, things that have meaning to you, and then looking at them and asking yourself, right, where am I, where in my life am I living in alignment with these values? Where am I living out of alignment with these values? How is that. That affecting me in my day to day life? You know, are these things actually important? And then the. Just condensing them down to, to a list that feels most appropriate for you. You know, I've condensed my personal values down into sort of three sets of two of pairs of values, if you like, seek opportunity and venture being one of those. And that for me right now feel. Feels right and appropriate to, to everything that I'm, I'm doing as a person within the business, but individually as well.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:38:50]:
Yeah. Yeah, nice. I love the way you said 8 to 10, because I have 9.

Rich Casement [00:38:56]:
But.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:38:56]:
One of which might well be. Be totally contrarian and don't pick a round number anyway. No, so that's really good. That, that's, that's great advice. But, you know, I really want to get into exercise because I think that that probably is where you're seeking a lot of those adventures these days. So let me start with this basic question. Why should anyone run up a hill? What's that all about?

Rich Casement [00:39:20]:
Because you can.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:39:22]:
Thank you very much, Mr. Mallory.

Rich Casement [00:39:27]:
We're not, we're meant. We're not built to be sedentary beings, you know, we're built to be active, you know, and, and being active. And it's not ne. It's not just about running. Running. So this is the thing. It's not solely about running. It's about movement, you know, it's about moving our bodies, you know, physically, which then helps us, you know, in, in the both in the physical sense. We get the physical benefit from, from doing the movement, but we also get the, the mental benefit from it as well. It's been one of the biggest things that supported me in terms of My own mental health when I've been going through periods of poor mental health. And I, I used to see it and I did in covert. I made the mistake stake of kind of almost, almost seeing it as therapy. You know, I almost kind of used it as my therapy. And now I recognize that it's not a replacement for therapy. It is therapeutic in many different ways, but it's not a replacement for going and speaking to people and you know, opening up about the things that are going on in your world, whoever that is, whether it's a coach, whether it's a therapist, whether it's a partner, a friend, you know, whoever it might be. It's, it's, it's a cliche, it's good to talk, but it, but it really is. And part of the reason, one of the reasons why I, I now host a, a running group which is primarily a peer to peer mental health support group with a 5 really relaxed 5k attached to it. Because I know people come and they open up a little bit more when they're shoulder to shoulder running together rather than face to face. So, you know, we've got people that come along on a Tuesday night who really value that safe, safe space, that environment, you know, where we're running and we're moving our bodies together, we're enjoying the fresh air, enjoying nature and environment and they feel more comfortable to open up in a group of people that, that get it and understand. So it's the movement for physical benefits, the movement for mental benefit, and it's the movement for emotional and spiritual benefit as well. Because all of those component parts for me are linked. You know, the mind, body and soul alignment. You know, when I'm talking to people about running and I'm coaching people and helping them go from couch to 5k or 5 to 10 or up to half marathon, marathon, ultra marathon distance. Whoever it is, at any point in the journey, it's about aligning the, the mind, the body and the soul. Because those are the three component parts that help you move your body effectively. Sometimes your mind will want to go out for a run. It will be telling you you need to go out for a run, but you're physically, your body won't want to. Sometimes your, your mind won't want to do it, but your body will be itching to get out, you'll have pent up energy. Sometimes neither of those will want to go for a run. And that's when you have to go into your soul and remind yourself of your why take it from the heart. You Know, and why do you want to go for a run? Because it makes you feel good or why do you want to move your body? Because, you know, it makes you feel good. So it's about aligning those component parts and using the, the thing that we've been. Nature's been so kind to give us, you know, and, and not waste it because, you know, it's a beautiful thing and, you know, it's the, it's the most, it's the simplest form of exercise, you know, running, walking, you know, and I, I empower people to, to run, walk. You know, there's a concept called jeffing, which comes from a guy in America called Jeff Galloway, which is basically a combination of running and walking. We've just coached, we've just helped coach a lady, wonderful lady in one of our, of our marathon groups called Carol. 68. She started running at 62. She's just Jeffed her way to her first marathon in London back in April, you know, and, and she just did it, you know, two or three minutes running, one minute walking, you know, did that the whole way around. Because every time you walk you're recovering, so it's less stress on, on the body. On the body. And that's what I do with people. That's how we help people, you know, on, on the most basic levels right up to the sort of the marathon and ultra marathon stage.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:43:09]:
Fantastic. Fantastic. I think, you know, it's so important to sort of acknowledge the, that there's so much more to physical activity than, you know, simply the physical benefit there, you know, and you've done that very eloquently, although I am slightly annoyed that I can't come up with a sort of psychotherapy park run fun for your group. But I don't know, it'll come to me about 10 o' clock this evening, won't it? All right, so one, one more question about ikea. You said you're not that keen on the place. Have you ever tried the meatballs?

Rich Casement [00:43:47]:
I don't think I have, actually. I know they're quite famous. Although my daughter likes meatballs, so maybe we should take her for, for meatballs. Ikea.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:43:55]:
Maybe you should. Yeah. Report back. No. So you've never tried meatballs, which is good because normally when I ask people if they like the meatballs. Not they give me the wrong answer because the correct answer is no, I don't like the meatballs, Duncan. I only feel like I've got to eat them when I'm at ikea. And that's my theory about Them, you know, nobody really likes them. You just kind of feel like you've got to do it because you're at Ikea.

Rich Casement [00:44:19]:
Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:44:20]:
Which is the segue into this question. What is the thing that nobody really wants to do when they get sober, but they should? So what, what, what kind of stuff should people be doing, definitely in sobriety, even though they don't want to be doing it?

Rich Casement [00:44:37]:
Well, there are lots of things, I think, in that bracket, especially in the early days, which kind of people perceive as. It's the things that the people think they need alcohol for. So, for confidence, to socialize, to dance, you know, whatever it might be, going to a wedding, going on holiday. So it's all of those things. It's leaning into all of those first firsts, those sober firsts, embracing them, you know, without. Without the desire to have alcohol, because you will get cravings. And here's the thing with cravings. Cravings. When people get a craving, they're not craving alcohol, they're craving a feeling. And alcohol ain't going to give them that feeling. They think alcohol is going to give that feeling. The feeling could be relaxation. The feeling that they crave could be excitement. The feeling they crave could be joy. The feeling that they crave could be connection. Alcohol doesn't give any of those feelings, you know, it does in many ways, the exact opposite. But when you sit with, you know, when you sit with those emotions and you sort of. You take some time to really think about what it is that your body, your mind or your soul is telling you. What is it that I'm craving here? I'm craving a feeling, a particular feeling. And there's so many other things that out there that can give you that feeling. Whether it's breath work, whether it's meditation, whether it's going for a walk, whether it's picking up the phone to a friend, you know, whether it's going for a coffee with, you know, with your. With your kids, you know, for a brunch on a weekend morning, whatever it might, Doing some exercise, whatever it might be, you know, So I think encouraging people to lean into those fears, you know, whatever those fears are, you know, whatever that reluctance is, whatever that apprehension is, lead into it. Because I guarantee that actually doing it is far less scary and far less uncomfortable than the perceived idea or view of doing it is.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:46:35]:
Oh, mate, you absolutely right. You got to do those things just to prove to yourself that you can actually enjoy dancing without drinking. That that's so important. And I also make you incredibly right. You Know most people, they don't want a beer, do they? They don't want ethanol. They want the illusion and it always was an illusion. So go and find something that will actually meet your needs. That is a fantastic way to wrap it up. But just before I do let you go, how can people find out more about the wonderful work that you are doing?

Rich Casement [00:47:05]:
Yeah, absolutely. So social media, we've got our Instagram page, it's take take.coma.clean break and then same on Facebook as well. Website is take dash A dash clean break. You can find us on there. And then I'm also on LinkedIn, have got a business page but I tend to do more work on my personal page on LinkedIn which is just Rich. Rich Casement. So yeah, you can, you can see us, follow us, see all the things that we're doing around coaching. Essentially we are are running coaches for the alcohol free or sober curious. But we're also sober alcohol free coaches for runners as well. So we kind of, we kind of send it both way. We, we send the joys of benefits of both things both ways.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown [00:47:55]:
So alcohol free? No. So running for the sober curious and sobriety for the running curious. You're not really going to hire me as your PR dude, are you? So perfect. Look, thank you so much for your time today, Rich. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you.

Rich Casement [00:48:14]:
Yeah, I really appreciate it. Thanks for your time.

Bjorn [00:48:17]:
We are nearly out of time but for some reason we will have a few screws left over. Don't forget to check out flatpacksober.com you'll find exclusive merchandise, the Sober Style Quick, the Facebook group and the show notes. Experience the wonderful AF. Visit flatpacksober.com here's Duncan to tell you what's happening next time.

Rich Casement [00:48:43]:
I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we did bringing it to you.

Bjorn [00:48:47]:
If you love what you're hearing and.

Rich Casement [00:48:49]:
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