The Happy at Work Podcast
The Happy at Work podcast explores the intersection of organizational culture, positive psychology, and employee branding to create thriving workplaces. Our expert hosts—Dr. Laura Hamill, Michael McCarthy, and Dr. Tessa Misiaszek—bring diverse perspectives and deep expertise to uncover practical strategies for fostering happiness and success at work.
We engage with various guests, including organizational leaders, HR professionals, psychologists, researchers, and employees across various industries. Through thought-provoking conversations, we delve into:
- How organizational culture shapes employee experiences and drives engagement
- Evidence-based positive psychology strategies that boost both human flourishing and business metrics
- Innovative approaches to align brand identity with employee experience and operationalize company values
Our mission is to give listeners actionable insights and tools to transform their workplaces. Whether you're a CEO, an HR professional, a manager, or an employee seeking to make a positive impact, the Happy at Work podcast offers valuable perspectives to help you create a more fulfilling, productive, and positive work environment.
Join us as we explore the cutting edge of workplace well-being and performance, uncovering the strategies that lead to truly happy, engaged, and successful organizations.
The Happy at Work Podcast
The Bravery Effect: Turning Fear into Action with Jill Schulman
What if the path to career success and personal fulfillment requires embracing fear rather than avoiding it? Jill Schulman, Marine Corps veteran and author of "The Bravery Effect," reveals a transformative understanding of bravery that challenges conventional wisdom.
Forget everything you thought you knew about courage. Schulman defines bravery as "taking voluntary action in the presence of fear toward a worthwhile goal" - a skill anyone can develop with practice. Through compelling insights drawn from military experience and positive psychology research, she illustrates how workplace fears of rejection, failure, and uncertainty create a devastating compound effect when we consistently choose to step back rather than forward.
The conversation delves into practical strategies for building your "bravery muscle," including visualization techniques that leverage the fear of regret and tools for navigating difficult conversations with authority figures. Schulman's POISE model (Purpose, Observed behavior, Impact, Seek understanding, Enact plan) provides a framework for speaking truth to power while minimizing potential negative consequences.
Perhaps most surprisingly, Schulman reveals how true bravery involves vulnerability - admitting when you need help, actively seeking feedback, and creating what she calls a "brave tribe" around you. The Marine Corps phrase "embrace the suck" encapsulates her central message: discomfort isn't something to avoid but rather the essential ingredient for growth and achievement.
Whether you're hesitant to share ideas in meetings, reluctant to pursue a promotion, or struggling to create a team environment where candor thrives, this episode offers evidence-based approaches to transform fear from an obstacle into a catalyst for meaningful change. What would your future self advise you to do with the opportunities before you today?
To stay connected and continue the conversation, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
And don't forget to check out our previous episodes for more tips and strategies to boost your workplace happiness. You can find them on your favorite podcast platform or on our website.
If you have any questions, comments, or topic suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you!
Stay inspired, stay motivated, and stay happy at work!
Welcome back for another episode of the Happy at Work podcast with Laura Tessa and Michael.
Speaker 2:Each week we have thoughtful conversations with leaders, founders and authors about happiness at work.
Speaker 3:Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation. Enjoy the show. Welcome to the Happy at Work podcast, and today we're really excited to welcome our guest, jill Shulman, who is the author of the Bravery Effect. She is a bravery expert, also a Marine Corps veteran, and she also studied at the University of Pennsylvania and is a master's. So she has a master's degree in applied positive psychology. Jill, welcome to the show, it's good to have you.
Speaker 4:Well, thank you. I'm so excited to be here and to have this conversation.
Speaker 3:And you have a really, really rich career history. Can you share with our guests your career journey? Where have you been and how did you end up becoming a bravery expert?
Speaker 4:It's kind of an interesting story so I'll tell you the quick version. I started my professional career as a United States Marine. So I ended up earning a full scholarship on the Marine Corps. So it was my opportunity to earn my degree and I wanted to see more of the world than the little tiny town in Minnesota. So I went to the University of San Diego and studied and at the end of four years I received my commission to be an officer in the Marine Corps and had an absolutely fascinating time and that's where I started learning about bravery in the Marine Corps.
Speaker 4:Then I got out of the Marine Corps and my little joke is my first job was blowing things up, like literally because my Marines were in charge of demolitions, explosive ordnance disposal, and then I decided to sell drugs the legal kind in pharmaceutical, the pharmaceutical industry. I had a recruiter that wanted me to interview with pharmaceutical companies. I was a little bit of a snob. I'm like I'm a captain of Marines, I'm above sales and what is this medical industry? I don't want to do that. And they were like, why don't you just practice your interviewing skills? So I did, and the second company I interviewed with, a hiring manager was a former Marine Corps officer. We clicked and I started that and I fell in love with science. This is when I started falling in love with science, as you obviously have to understand the science to have these in-depth conversations with doctors. So I did that for about 15 years, working in pharma, biotech, device, moved up, did very well, and then I just benefited so much as a leader from learning from others and going to leadership development courses and I became obsessed with organizational development, industrial psychology, and then I also learned about positive psychology, so I was always reading everything.
Speaker 4:I decided to start my own company about 10 years ago. So I was doing the same thing, doing leadership development. It used to be internal to a company. I started doing it in my own company and I was just getting to the point where I want to learn and develop. I kept helping my clients, you know, in the companies create these environments where everyone's learning and growing, and I kind of got that little itch.
Speaker 4:So I went to Penn and that's how I met you, michael, at the alumni and out of that, that program, as you know, you have to decide where are you going to take a deep dive in your research and when you write your capstone and when you think of positive psychology, so many people that know me they're like positive psychology you're the tough girl, marine, and isn't positive psychology happyology and I'm like no.
Speaker 4:Then I will correct the definition of what positive psychology is. But I became very interested in the A and PERMA that you know right, one of the ways that we can elevate our happiness and well-being is by accomplishing hard things. So I was looking into, like what holds people back? So I just became obsessed and took a deep dive and did the research on that and wrote the book and now I'm just so excited on a mission to help people. I think so many amazing, talented people are controlled by fear that holds them back and I just I want to help them overcome that so they can have a bigger impact at work and live a happier life.
Speaker 5:That sounds amazing, jill, and your book is called the Bravery Effect, and so I just want to ask the first question being what is bravery? When you talk about what is bravery, and when you talk about this fear that people have, it really holds them back. Can you just dig a little bit deeper into what you mean by those terms?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so bravery is defined as taking voluntary action in the presence of fear toward a worthwhile goal. That's a definition I get from Dr Cynthia Puri from Clemson, a leading bravery researcher, and that when I learned about what bravery was, it actually didn't match up with what I thought bravery was before. Like when you think of someone who's brave, what do you think? What image comes in your mind? Like a firefighter?
Speaker 5:Like, yeah, a firefighter or someone who faces danger.
Speaker 4:I'm waiting for officer, someone who yeah, and I just thought it was like the physical part, right. And when I studied bravery, I realized it is actually something that's much more of a broad character trait, that everyone can learn the skill. So the two things that I learned about bravery that really kind of shook me at my core were bravery wasn't what I thought it was. It wasn't just the physical bravery it was. I mean, every one of us wants to take voluntary action in the presence of fear toward a worthy goal, right? And so I learned that bravery is for everyone.
Speaker 4:And I also learned that bravery is a skill that you can build like a muscle. And then that one part of the definition is it is not the absence of fear, it's actually taking a step on shaky knees, right. So I used to think people who are brave were just fearless. If you actually don't have any fear, you're not even being brave. So, yeah, that's what the definition of bravery is. It's something you're not born with it, it's something that you build and you can build it over time. You're not born with it, it's something that you build and you can build it over time. And this is drawn from psychology. There's things we can do in cognitive psychology, behavioral psychology, social psychology things that we can do, evidence-based interventions that can help people build that bravery muscle.
Speaker 1:I love what you just said Jill about. If you don't have fear, you're not brave. It's like a prerequisite that you have the sense of fear. That is so that I don't know. That really is cool. Maybe let's go a little bit deeper, because I love this topic so much. Let's talk a little bit, maybe, about what are the challenges that people face in this bravery journey and maybe some things that some specific things you've seen really work when people are trying to learn how to build that muscle of being brave.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, I think the way it shows up it's different for every person. So another thing about bravery it is very personal. So what I am fearful of is different than what you're fearful of. Like, I have no fear of getting on large stages and speaking because I'm just, that's something I'm comfortable with. Other people would go into total panic, right. So it's very personal.
Speaker 4:But what I see in the workplace many times the fear that holds people back is this is the fear of failure, the fear of rejection, the fear. So those are the fears. It's social fears that we see primarily in the workplace and you know, or the fear of uncertainty. So here's some specific examples. Maybe think of someone in the workplace where they've got an idea and they have a really good idea to solve a challenge and they want to share their idea, but there's that moment where they could share it and they think I'm uncomfortable, I'm just going to step back and I'm not going to share my idea because I'm scared it'll be something that is not accepted or is going to be rejected. Another example is someone who is waiting until they're 100% ready and they have no more fear before they raise their hand for a promotion, right? So that's another fear that we see in the workplace, or sometimes the fear of uncertainty, as there's a change initiative. So what fear does is it paralyzes us and we don't take action, and this is not related to your question, but it's. This is coming to mind.
Speaker 4:The reason I named the book the Bravery Effect is based on the work that I've done with my clients so far.
Speaker 4:Is we really look at what is the compounding effect on not just results but a person's career, of each opportunity they have to share their idea to raise their hand for promotion or to embrace change, even though it's scary? What is the compound effect of someone in all those situations? They decide to step back instead of step forward in the presence of fear. And you know I say the compound effect because you know you think of, like when you're saving for retirement, like you've got to keep saving every single month and then over time it grows exponentially. This is the same thing with bravery right. Think of someone's impact at work and their career. For them to take ownership for their career If they can learn to take that step forward even though they're a little bit unsure. Or what would be the devastating impact to their career being pretty flat, because they're always letting fear control them. So I don't know if that answers the question, but that's what comes to mind.
Speaker 3:That's so interesting. I'm going to give you a real life example that happened two days ago and ask for some advice. So I'm going to ask you, for you know, what would Jill do with the bravery effect? I was teaching an executive ed course and we told the students for day two there's going to be a module on artificial intelligence total beginner and this was all salespeople. There was a lot of fear in the room and a lot of them. It was interesting. At the net, at the networking party, everyone's just dropping AI terms all over the place and you can tell they don't really know. And when we said, okay, now we're going to dig into the weeds and really get into AI, I knew there was a lot of fear in the room.
Speaker 3:The program started at 8 am and we offered that at 7 am we would have a total training wheels super beginner. What does the letter A mean? What does the letter I mean? A complete beginner? There were 25 people registered in the class. One person came at 7 am, dug in, asked all the very beginner questions. He did great. And what could we have said to the other 23? Because I think they didn't come because they were afraid they didn't know the information.
Speaker 3:I think they were afraid. What can people do who are afraid to make the step and show up at 7?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I'm going to.
Speaker 4:I'm going to answer the way Cynthia Puri would answer, because she is the world's leading bravery researcher.
Speaker 4:She says one of the best ways to motivate people to take a step forward, even when they're scared, is to have them think about what would be, what would be the consequence if they don't take action. So this is like going to the future, like if you don't choose to really learn about AI and how you can leverage it to have your best career or you said it was sales executives in order to be the best salesperson you know what would be the consequence if you didn't understand this. When you think about, when you think about the risk or the consequence of not doing it, and then you you amplify that, then the fear of not doing can motivate you to act. It's about a lot of people have a fear of doing something like oh, this is scary, this is kind of unknown. So if you can amplify the doing something like, oh, this is scary, this is kind of unknown, so if you can amplify the consequences, the fear of not doing, that can motivate people to take action.
Speaker 3:That's what I love that as a quick follow-up before I pass on to Tessa. What gets me to be brave is that consequence. I never thought of it that way but it's regret. I would regret copping out, not trying. I would rather have pie on my face and just have my face in that mud puddle than be like I never did it, because I would never stop beating myself up. Regret is what helps me be brave, because I would never stop beating myself up. Regret is what helps me be brave.
Speaker 4:This is. It's about avoiding the pain of regret. You spot on and I like to tell audiences I tend to be kind of provocative Like I'll say this I'll say, in all these little moments you have a choice to take a step forward, even though there's fear there, and that's what I call that's a brave step. And then, or you have a choice to take a step back and let the fear control you. And I'll ask the audience what is that called? And they say cowering. So in those moments we choose to cower. I'm not going to call someone a coward, I'm just saying the choice you made was to take a step back in the presence of fear versus taking a step forward.
Speaker 4:If you think about the, what is the goal is I want to understand and leverage AI so that it helps my career. So another thing that comes to mind but yes, it's the power of regret and another just a little psychological trick is sometimes asking yourself what is your future self? Imagine yourself two or three years from now. What would your future self tell you tomorrow morning at 7 am of what you should do? So you can get people to convince themselves. Right, it's a great little psychological trick there, like what does your future self want to do, like when I don't want to get out of bed in the morning to go for a run. I'm like, what does my 6 pm Jill want me to do this morning? Should I press snooze or do I want to get out of bed? So I use myself to coach myself to do it. So two little tricks no-transcript.
Speaker 5:Can we do as managers to create braver teams so that they are taking those, those calculated risks and they are, you know, really thinking about how they can innovate for the future because they're being brave. So how can managers manage that?
Speaker 4:I'm so glad you asked this question because I talk about, and I hear my clients talk about, psychological safety all of the time. So if we think about the goal of psychological safety, it's not just for everyone to feel safe. The goal of psychological safety is to have candor, to have transparency, so that everyone's sharing what they really feel. So if we think about really the goal of psychological safety, how do we create that? Now, I would say a majority of the responsibility to make people feel safe to speak up does fall on the leader. Let's look at Amy Edmondson's research from Harvard. Absolutely, I teach her stuff. I cite her stuff. Leaders have a responsibility to set the stage, tell people their voice is heard. Number two, ask, so create the mechanisms to continually gather the information. And number three, the leaders have to make sure they respond appropriately so her data is sound. So still teach that it's absolutely necessary.
Speaker 4:But I think many times we don't do enough as leaders in order to teach our people how to make their voice heard or how to speak up, even when they're nervous. So the leaders that do the best job of creating psychological safety, there's still going to be people on their team employees that still might feel a little bit nervous because they have a fear of speaking up. It might have been other companies before, or they're just more introverted in terms of their personality. So I feel like the missing piece for the goal of candor, transparency and trust is we need to also teach our employees how to speak up, how to be brave in their communications, and this takes time. Wouldn't it be great if you just say like I want everyone to speak up, just make sure you speak up and it's safe.
Speaker 4:But if someone doesn't know how, right. So teaching people how to be brave and that's what I'm obsessed with is how do you actually teach people to be brave, right? How do you create the rewiring of their brain so, when people feel uncomfortable and feel the fear, they're actually gonna be more apt to step forward? So, and feel the fear, they're actually going to be more apt to step forward. So I think that's a gap. I think in psychological safety, we should do all the things we're doing, but also give some resources and training to all employees to say part of your job expectation is for you to speak up with questions, you have ideas or concerns. That's part of the job and we're going to teach you the skill of how to do that, so you become more comfortable speaking up, love the connection you're making with power and how power influences this topic.
Speaker 1:I'm curious one of the things I get to do some cool work around culture, and so a lot of times I'm working with leadership teams and I feel like there's a level of bravery that leaders have and they can teach their employees about, but I also feel like they have their own power dynamics many times with the CEO, and there are many times where I feel like the leaders aren't brave in pushing back and really questioning the CEO and really putting forward to the CEO ways that things need to change, and so it's a really interesting to me thing to observe the politics that happen. So I'm curious about like there's this reading the room, understanding politics and knowing how to navigate really complex things that happen and how that fits with bravery, because to me, I get that there is an important role to play in understanding organizational dynamics and navigating that, but at some point it feels like you're just playing the game and you're not pushing on things that need to be pushed on. So I don't know, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.
Speaker 4:No, I do, and I get calls all the time. My clients are always asking like they're trying to create the dynamic and the culture within their team, but then they are struggling to push back.
Speaker 4:So, I hear you. This is, this is a real challenge. So this is where I think I get into more tactical training. Like people want to do the right thing, they want to push back, but they just don't know how. Like, how am I going to say it? Is there going to be consequences if I challenge the boss? So this is where, like, I came up with what I call when you deliver that feedback or pushback, I say just do it with poise. And what I mean by poise and this is what I teach especially senior leaders. I'm like just start with your purpose and your pure intent, right, because that way leaders feel safer. So it would. It could be something like hey, boss, you're the CEO, I'm one of the senior leaders, I want to have a conversation about something with you, and this is because I care so much about the company and our results and I think the most responsible thing to do is for me to share something. An observation that I have and I'm a little even nervous about doing this, but I just know that my, my intent is pure, because I want to be helpful. Can I share something? So when I teach leaders how to do that little preamble, they're sharing their pure intent instead of just coming.
Speaker 4:My POIS model P is purpose and permission, o is the like you, as organizational psychologists, you know this stuff better than anyone else. Then describe the observed behavior or the observed strategy that's being done. So make sure you're not judging it, it's just here's an observation and then here's the potential impact. So POI is just how you begin the conversation and then S is seek to understand. This is just my point of view, ceo. I'm bringing you with great care, but I wanted to hear from you. And then the E is hopefully to enact a plan. So that's my poise model that I bring to all of my many teams and many senior leaders.
Speaker 4:And if someone's really nervous about pushing back, I'm like okay, come up with your, come up with your plan and how are you going to bring it up? And, like anything that you're scared of, do a rehearsal Right. Sometimes we need to rehearse, like if I've got a huge stage to speak on and they've asked me to talk about a topic that's a little different. I rehearse to become more confident and this is part of bravery. Like you know, we need to practice the skill a couple times and feel a little bit stronger.
Speaker 4:So I would challenge those senior leaders in saying, like, what is the right thing to do? What is the worthy goal? Right, I'm going back to my definition of bravery. So the right thing to do is here. So right now you're experiencing fear. The brave thing to do is to take that voluntary action in the presence of fear in order to accomplish the goal, but let's do it in a way that's going to minimize some of what you fear, which is the risk of any type of consequences. And if you deliver it that way and I get calls back and they're like it worked all the time.
Speaker 4:So this is why I say like yeah, let's teach them how, have them practice, and I'll even do it. I'm like, all right, let's just role play. And then sometimes they can say the right words. But you all know this, because you teach this, sometimes it's the tone or the body language. I'm like, all right, you're saying the right words, but you're coming across. So then I'm like, practice again, practice again. I'm like, okay, now everything about it is coming across as caring and neutral. You are ready to have a conversation, and then they do it.
Speaker 5:That's say, I just had the biggest aha moment, because when I reflect back on my 30 years of professional experience and I've worked for lots of dysfunctional organizations I don't know if I should say that, but you know, those that are kind of the most toxic environments really are led by people who lack bravery.
Speaker 5:And as a result, they overcompensate by strong arming people or just um, you're just coming across in a way that is is just kind of like this, this way or the highway, rather than really being brave and and being able to challenge and also to reflect and say I think maybe something's not going as well, which is also brave, right To admit when the plan is not working and we have to pivot. I just, you know, I literally have chills right now because I do think, when I think back to a lot of the dysfunctional leaders that I've worked with in the past, that that's really kind of at the core is their lack of bravery in order to, you know, in their leadership, and it may come across as them strong arming or not creating psychologically safe environments or whatnot, but it's really because of their lack of, you know, confidence in their own security.
Speaker 5:So it's that's, I think, such an important point when it comes to leadership and haven't heard that before.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, if in my book I talk about the three ways of being brave and what people are always surprised by, and when I had some beta readers, like the early readers, they were like oh my gosh the end of the book because it's written as a parable. They're like, oh my gosh, I learned so much there. So I talk about brave relationships and I go into what that means. If you want to be brave because I have some men in my audience are like I'm brave, like look at me, I'm big, I'm muscular, I do all that stuff and then after, oh, I'm actually kind of a wimp in this area. But when we talk about brave relationships, I'm like how comfortable are you admitting when you need help and asking for it? How brave are you to ask for feedback? How brave are you to not be the smartest person in the room and it not to be your idea, so that vulnerability piece. So we talk about how everyone should have a brave tribe around them where you're always seeking feedback on how you can become better and the reason I call it, you know, bravery for a lot of different reasons. As people are moving up in their career, I say like who is someone who has accomplished what you want to accomplish, or maybe they're further along in their career. Are you brave enough to go up to them and say like I've watched your career progression and you've been so effective? I would love to ask you a couple of questions so that I can learn and grow from you. Can I ask? So? Some people are too intimidated to go up to the senior leader, right? Just go ask them. And what we know in pro-social behavior is that person that you're asking for help. When they can help mentor someone that's young and ambitious, they get a bigger boost to their well-being than even I do. So be brave enough to go ask for advice and for help. But then you got to be brave enough to take it Right.
Speaker 4:And I love Adam Grant. Love Adam Grant and all the work that he does. But what I learned from him and I don't know if it's, I don't think it's his research, but he, he cites the research, so I remember him saying it I should figure out who actually made that, did the research. But he says if you, if you just ask for feedback, hey, do you have any feedback for me? A lot of times you won't get it, especially if the leader in power right. So you've got to ask a different way.
Speaker 4:So, just in general, it's asking the question do you have any suggestions on how I can get even better as a leader? Or, if you're asking up to your leader and mentor, I want to improve my level of impact and performance. So what are a couple of suggestions for me to get to that next level? When you ask it that way, you know Adam Grant says, then people feel more comfortable sharing. But if you just say, do you have any feedback for me, a lot of people will think I don't want to give them feedback. No, you're great. Everything you're perfect, you're really effective. But if you ask for suggestions to get even better, then that usually gives people permission, and then you got to be brave enough to receive it.
Speaker 3:I love these, I love these reframes and I'm going to I'm going to ask another one. This is, I'm going to go off the deep end and see if you can handle this one. For some friends I have, I've been spending some time in Buenos Aires to learn Spanish. Because I want to, I want to teach in Spanish and you, you have to talk to people on the street and you know you're going to mess it up. You know it's going to be messy and they might laugh at you or walk away. And I do it. I do it, but a lot of my, a lot of my friends in my class don't. So they, they know how to read, but they don't know how to talk. And they came to talk. What would you suggest for them to overcome the fear to?
Speaker 3:get on the street, be messy.
Speaker 4:How would you?
Speaker 3:reframe for them.
Speaker 4:Well, if you were that person, I would talk to them about making mistakes and those little failures that you're making. That is the absolute best thing that you want to go after for you to accelerate your growth and development. So this goes back to these terms that you've heard a billion times, you know. Here's one of my stickers here Comfort and growth do not coexist. So if you stay in your apartment hotel room, you're in Buenos Aires to learn how to speak. If you don't go out and speak, which makes you uncomfortable, you will not grow as much. So I want you to reframe this discomfort as something that is positive. Now here, let me just let me sprinkle in a little Marine Corps here.
Speaker 4:So when I was in the Marine Corps, when I was in the Marine Corps, there was this phrase that we were always told, and I don't know that I appreciated it until now that I studied psychology and it was embrace the suck, embrace the suck. And now I'm like, from a psychological point of view, like that is so valid. So, you know, I just want I would remind your fellow students and saying like I want you to embrace when it's really hard, because those are the moments that you're going to be growing the very most. Whenever you choose to step back, like you've got this choice, I go. Are you going to step forward into the discomfort to really learn and grow, or are you going to take a step back, which we call cowering? Right, it's your choice. But if you want the path to greater levels of growth, development, impact in your companies and also life satisfaction, you've got to choose to be uncomfortable. So let's choose to embrace the suck, let's choose to look at discomfort and even the little failures is like these are the stepping stones to greatness, right?
Speaker 4:So I fail all the time because I just I lean in, I think. I think we sometimes study like what we need, right? So now that I've done all the research on bravery and stuff. Now I'm just, I'm just going for it and I'm I'm making mistakes along the way, and each time there's a little bit of an oops, a mistake, I just go what did I learn from that? Right, as long as we look at the failure and go all right, I didn't have a great conversation and I didn't like what, okay, what didn't go well, Right, and just learn from it, and that's how we grow.
Speaker 3:Before I pass on to Tess and Laura, I do this and I make a mess and it's messy. And the other day, before I came back to the US, I was being messy with my Spanish and Buenos Aires, and the person said where are you from? And I said the United States and they said thank you for respecting my culture and trying to learn my language. Whoa, I never thought that it was like a sign of respect. It is. It was really nice to be like, I'm glad, tried. I'm glad I tried.
Speaker 4:It was messy, but they appreciated it they didn't care that you conjugated every verb correctly. They said, wow, you're from the us and the private opinions of people from the us and you're here and you're trying to talk in our language, wow, so they're impressed by it yeah, I. I love it. That's a good reframe.
Speaker 5:I love that too and, michael, I have to say I think you're very brave for the work you've been doing over the past six months, living in a different country and learning the language.
Speaker 5:It's pretty amazing, but we are over time because I think we could talk about this topic all day long, so we'll have to invite you back, jill. I really love the work that you're doing around bravery. I think it's one of those essential ingredients for great leadership. And congratulations on your book, and thank you so much for joining us at the Happy at Work podcast.
Speaker 4:Well, thanks for having me. It's so much fun and we'll have to talk again because I have so much I can learn from all of you as well, and together you know learning from one another. I've got to model what I teach, so I've got a lot of questions and I'm sure I could learn a lot from all of you.
Speaker 3:We would love to have you back after the book's been out for a while to get the feedback, and your book is so timely. So many people right now are living in fear and it's a waste of a potentially amazing life. With bravery, your life matters more, so thank you for writing the book.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, thank you. Thank you so much for that. It took some bravery to write the book. Thanks so much, thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Jill.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 3:We hope you've enjoyed this episode. If you'd like to hear future episodes, be sure to subscribe to the Happy at Work podcast and leave us a review with your thoughts.
Speaker 2:Are you interested in speaking on a future episode or want to collaborate with us? Let us know. You can send us an email at admin at happyatworkpodcastcom and lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for even more happiness.
Speaker 1:See you soon.
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