Katherine Sleadd (she/her) is a trauma informed coach and the author of the book How to Be a Bad Friend . She has developed a deep body of work around friendship breakups, community loss, and family of origin.
In this episode, I asked Kat to join me in a conversation about:
This episode is for business owners who offer transformation, who have wondered why seemingly perfect fit clients have suddenly dropped off, and who have struggled to make their needs known or fear being "difficult".
You can find Kat's work at www.katherinesleadd.com
Follow her on Instagram @katesleadd
And purchase her book here
Katherine Sleadd (she/her) is a trauma informed coach and the author of the book How to Be a Bad Friend . She has developed a deep body of work around friendship breakups, community loss, and family of origin.
In this episode, I asked Kat to join me in a conversation about:
This episode is for business owners who offer transformation, who have wondered why seemingly perfect fit clients have suddenly dropped off, and who have struggled to make their needs known or fear being "difficult".
You can find Kat's work at www.katherinesleadd.com
Follow her on Instagram @katesleadd
And purchase her book here
Whenever we're looking at change, we both want it and don't want it, because we want security and we want familiarity. So then, if part of our profession is offering change to people in their business, in their lives, in their mental health. You're constantly walking that line of push-pull.
Brooke Monaghan:Welcome to another episode of Make Your Business Work For You. I have two new episodes for you today, and in this episode you're going to hear a conversation between me and Kat Sleadd, also known as Katherine Sleadd. I am just lucky enough to be on a nickname basis with Kat, so you'll hear me say Kat throughout this episode. Kat uses she and her pronouns, as you will hear. Now may also be a great time to say that I also use she and her pronouns. Did I say that at any point in the last two episodes? I don't remember, but let's just keep saying it.
Brooke Monaghan:I asked Kat to come on the show because for a while I have wanted to do something with Kat around the concept of client ghosting. Let me say a little bit more. Kat says in this episode that she has been in one of my programs for a few years, so I have been lucky enough to have her in my spaces. There was a time where Kat came off mute to offer something to somebody in the group and basically shared: We need to understand that if we are in the business of offering people transformation, we need to understand that people the change is hard for people, right, and so when somebody says that they want to work with you and then they don't answer any of your emails after that or when somebody is working with you, and then they kind of duck out of that work and either stop coming back or say they need to end things suddenly, Kat brought to light for me something that once I heard it, it felt so obvious but it was really pivotal at the time when I first heard her talk about it, or at least the way that she spoke about it which was that sometimes you've done everything right in meeting this person and showing them how you could help them move along, and it's actually the fact that you have shown them that you could care for them in just the way that they need to be cared for during that time, or you could help them achieve the exact transformation that they're looking for at the time. That could be the very thing that makes that person pull away because of the fact that they're being confronted with a big change. We talk about this, but we also talk about so much more in this episode, just around relationships and being in disagreement and the way that we tend to categorize people, to keep ourselves safe and decide that there's good ones and bad ones and all of that.
Brooke Monaghan:Before we get into this episode, I do want to mention a couple of things. Kat has a fantastic new book called How to Be a Bad Friend. Just as I asked Kat to come on today to give some context to why clients might, or potential clients might ghost Kat's book, I think, does a really beautiful job of illustrating some of the context around failed friendships, which is a really tender subject for people, and, as I say in this episode, it's about friendship, but it's also about so much more. It's really just about relationships in general, so I'm going to be linking to that in the show notes. The other couple of things that I wanted to mention is that if you have not already left a rating and a review for the podcast and you're enjoying it, please, please, do that in Apple Podcasts. It makes a huge difference and I really appreciate it. Also, if you know somebody who would enjoy the show or who wants to submit questions for the show, share the show with them. Head to joinfruition. com, share that with them. They can submit their questions and get responses from one of our expert contributors, which we have many of at this point. Okay, let's get into today's episode. I don't want to keep you too much longer. I hope you enjoy.
Brooke Monaghan:I wanted to do something with you for a long time around a few of the topics that we're going to talk about.
Brooke Monaghan:The first one was client ghosting, because this is a thing that I've just been in situations where a thing has happened and then you've kind of been like would you be open to some context on that?
Brooke Monaghan:And then you pop in and you just break the whole thing down in such a way where I'm just like holy shit, like it's so helpful to know some of the things that I've learned from you.
Brooke Monaghan:And so, you know, I think I just threw it out there to you at some point to be like we need to do something about client ghosting at some point. And then since then I'm actually glad that we waited, because now I feel like I am seeing parallel. I'm seeing things in my life daily that are so related to your book, and not even necessarily friendship things, some friendship things but just relationships in general and the ways that I'm realizing I was taught I was supposed to be in relationships and how that really causes me to never actually allow people to know me. You know, so, yeah, so anyways, I kind of I wanted to actually intentionally not be super prepared for this conversation with you because I wanted to allow the beautiful thing that I always see happen with you, which is I bring a thing up that I'm like I think I see this thing happening and you're like actually, oh no, this is what I know.
Katherine Sleadd:What's funny is people will tell me I've said things that are like meaningful to them and I just have no memory meaning like I know that I do talk a lot, but actually don't talk a lot. You actually don't talk a lot.
Brooke Monaghan:You are the kind of person who's like very quiet. You actually remind me a lot of who I was when I was younger, which is, you're very quiet, and then, when you say something, it's very clear to me that you have been incredibly intentional with what you were about to say. At least that's how it seems to me. It seems like you open your mouth when you have something really poignant to say, and only when it is necessary to like, insert yourself and it is just so.
Katherine Sleadd:maybe we need to get drinks sometime then and it will expand the narrative of definitely do. Yes.
Brooke Monaghan:OK.
Brooke Monaghan:So I think I actually OK, let's just start with the client ghosting, because we just get it off, the we get we got to, we got to make sure that that happens.
Brooke Monaghan:So, something that I learned from you is that when and I'm going to put this in my terms and then I'm going to allow you to come in and be like let me actually explain what's happening here. Something that I've learned from you is that there's a thing that can happen in relationships with clients, especially when you're in a coaching relationship or in some kind of support role, where you might think that seeing somebody in like an initial call that you have with them or in any kind of call that you have with them really seeing them and really noticing like what it is that they need that in that moment, and just kind of going in and being like here's what I notice and here and offering that, you would think that that would be like that was going to blow that person's mind and make them be like you are the person that I want to work with forever and ever and ever, maybe not that much, but you know some of it.
Katherine Sleadd:I mean don't we? Isn't that our fantasy, though?
Brooke Monaghan:But that actually sometimes that has the opposite effect, which is that that person kind of runs away from it.
Katherine Sleadd:Yeah, well, I think I remember this, where what I? I do remember what I said about this, so maybe I'm like, OK, I'll try to pull it back up. But like I think sometimes you know, whenever we're looking at change, we both want it and don't want it, Because we want security and we want familiarity, and so then a part of our profession is offering change to people in their business, in their lives, in their mental health. You're constantly walking that line of like push, pull of, you know you're inviting someone to something new and they're seeking you because they want something new. And that's like the agreement and the structure and you know you can be as clear as possible about it. And I don't know, I think I want to say like sometimes that just happens, you know. Yeah, so that's just like the baseline of it is we both want change and we don't want change.
Katherine Sleadd:And so then if someone actually does see that you would be a great fit and then, for whatever reason, because because they're now out of the picture. We don't know why they left, but it seems common enough in multiple across industries of like a helping profession.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, yeah. And it's like really, I've just had so many scenarios where I've seen clients of mine really feel devastated by the fact that they thought they had this connection with a client and then the client either said they wanted to work with them and never responded to an email again or was in a program with them or a relationship with them and literally just like stopped. Either stopped showing up and didn't say anything or said you know, actually I need to like out of seemingly out of nowhere, I need to end this or whatever. And it makes so much sense once I heard you kind of explain that to be like, oh yeah, like there's no way of knowing what is going on for that person. It's not like in every scenario and that's not what we're saying. Like it's not like in every scenario. If somebody stops working with you or doesn't respond to you, it's because of this.
Katherine Sleadd:Totally. Yeah.
Brooke Monaghan:But there's certainly situations where it's not that you did anything wrong, it's not that you should have whatever. It's actually that like for that person, they have their own process and like they might just be in a place where they're not actually ready to face whatever kind of transformation could come from what they might see being like almost a rapid kind of thing that would come about from working with you or from facing the things that they're recognizing they might have to change to work with you or whatever, and being able to point that out or notice it even for myself sometimes or even have it as a possibility, not like oh, that's what happened, but be like, oh, it could have been this. T o me is like, really, really helpful.
Katherine Sleadd:Yeah Well, because we get. I mean, I feel like there's two questions here because there's like ghosting of you know, and I also want to just put a disclaimer in. I don't have, I mean, do I like being ghosted? Ab- so- fucking- lutely not. Also, like I don't want to make it a moral judgment, so, like it's, I want to use it as a word in this conversation. So I'm just like hey, if anyone out there has ghosted their whoever, yes, it's a functional word of like oh, you were gone now suddenly without explanation.
Katherine Sleadd:But so there's two categories here. You see, like the initial call, you know you're offering that change and then you never hear from them again, even though you think there's like this good connection and, like you're, they're moving forward in the process, you feel like you're both a good fit for each other. And then there's the scenario of you've been working with somebody and then they just don't show up to their calls anymore or or whatever capacity of that. Maybe they give you a little bit of information, or they give you information that you feel is out of nowhere, or no info and just cancellation. So I want to notice like those feel like a little bit different categories, too, of like experiences.
Katherine Sleadd:But to come back to what you said, it's really vulnerable to be in the work of change with people. It's vulnerable to allow someone to help you in that like. It's vulnerable to show up for that in yourself, like as a client. And it's also vulnerable as a coach or as a mentor, as you know, a therapist or whatever other title in the person to person field that we're talking about. Because you care, you, you give a damn. You wouldn't be in this work otherwise. Yeah, so go ahead, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan:Oh no, I you know something was coming up as you were talking, which is I'm really glad that you said like this isn't a moral judgment, because actually what it's done for me has allowed me to understand why somebody might it's not actually in some instances, I'm not going to lie it makes me feel better to think that it's an option, that that's what happened to be like. Oh, maybe I was just so like. You know, I just met them right where they were and it was so obvious to them what would happen from working with me. You know, of course I've gone there, but actually what I think it's allowed me to do is just have some more, leave some space for different people's processes to be different and not make it about me, which is so important and I think really gets lost in coaching spaces, where it's very focused on training. It's very focused on transformation and results, because what you're supposed to do as a coach is you're supposed to be able to say this is what I do for clients, this is where I get you and you're supposed to be able to walk them through, bring them through a process, and that's where they land and that means that you did a good job.
Brooke Monaghan:And what gets lost in that is that that doesn't account for not just different circumstances.
Brooke Monaghan:I think we talk sometimes about different circumstances, people having different financial circumstances or different lived experiences that's certainly a part of it but also, just like their inner landscape of what they're actually going through when they go through change and how
Brooke Monaghan:if we make it about us and the results that we get people too, we are in danger of losing the part where it just might take people a different route to get, or a different amount of time to get, where they're going to go. And this is something that Nicole Lewis-Keeber, who is a therapist and works on trauma and entrepreneurship and is going to be on the show at some point, was telling me when we did an interview for my last show. She had said something about sometimes she's working with coaches and they're really frustrated by a certain client because they're not progressing in the way that they would like to see them progress. And she was like you actually can't force somebody. Not only is there often just nothing, it's not within your power. But if you try to force somebody to experience a change, to work within your timeline, to make you a good coach, you're actually like trampling over, like their experience and how they deal with things and their process, and this, to me, nests into that.
Katherine Sleadd:Yeah, totally Well, I think about the idea of what are the maybe common ways that we deal with being ghosted as a coach. What's the story that we are telling ourselves? Are we telling ourselves we are a failure? Or I will tend to run through my own like gosh, what could I have done better? And I think there's like that's definitely healthy, like you need to have ability to look at how you, why there was a sudden disconnect and what you did that contributed to that, not just for the future of your business, but also just for your continued work with whoever you're going to sit with. I mean, it's sorry, lost my own train of thought, but the frustration aspect and the stuckness I wonder if that comes as like a common theme for people when they find a sudden ending with a client, because yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know if you want to jump in there.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, no, I think that in the conversation that I was having about that with Nicole, it was kind of like and I guess I'm drawing a parallel it's like sometimes it's and I've seen, I've watched coaches do this where they see a client kind of I'm going to use really what I would not terminology that I would actually use, but the way that I see people thinking about it, like this client bailed out right at the part where things were going to get hard because they just didn't want to do the work. Um, or this client just isn't progressing in the way that they could be and it's so frustrating because they're just not taking action. Yeah, why did you oof?
Katherine Sleadd:I just think about how much easier it is for us to accuse ourselves or other people when we are going through something painful.
Brooke Monaghan:Yes, thank you. And so I think that this conversation about what someone might be experiencing that would make them maybe decide, sometimes not even consciously. I mean we have so much shit going on, I have so many emails Like there is no way that I have not left somebody hanging over the past few months and I just can't remember it because I just the communication is constant and so it's not even always conscious. It might just be that somebody is like they saw this, it was a lot, you go back to your life. And having this conversation with you about why this might happen to me leaves so much space for us to just open things up a little bit and be like, oh okay, maybe it wasn't actually that anyone did anything wrong necessarily.
Katherine Sleadd:[Katherine Sleadd] Yeah, yeah, like breathing room for the sudden endings of things, and like that also sounds like really liberating, you know, as somebody who is working with people vulnerably, from that side of you know, offering the support and the care you know. I think that you would probably agree with me. Most of the people that you work with are probably a little bit harder on themselves. Like that would lean towards skew, towards that side, less towards the side of like oh, they weren't just ready, or whatever.
Katherine Sleadd:Yes, like they're going to take it all on and we actually won't be able to show up well and authentically if we're not honestly looking at what happened and if it was just they're going back to their life. You looked at it and in one ear out the other, like moving on, like from an initial call or even you know, somewhere in the middle like something else that in their landscape, as you said, is like disrupting in the way or whatever, and there's not an ability for them to communicate that and actually has nothing to do with you. Yeah, like what are we? How can we have a little bit more relief for ourselves? Because I mean, gosh, it sucks, especially when you're self employed too. Like, that's the nature of it.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, yeah. So, as we're talking about this, something that I am also like seeing a parallel to, and I think that this is something that I mean ghosting is definitely something that you talk about in your book, but there's and this is really the reason why I wanted to make sure that we talk because, like I was saying, I mean I just see so many relational dynamics play out that I'm just like, oh, like it's like 17 times a day. I'm like, oh, how to be a bad friend. Oh, how to be a bad friend. Oh, like I just see it everywhere now. And I think that part of that is because in my own therapy, I'm just really working on like being more authentic with people and, and just learning myself too. And something that you point out and that I really love about your work and that I think we see happen in the scenario that we were just talking about, and we also see it happen just in general in the business development space, is how quick we are to just put people in categories.
Katherine Sleadd:Yeah.
Brooke Monaghan:You know, like if you have a call with a client, a potential client, and then they don't they say they want to work with you and then they don't it can be really self protective and make you feel better to be like, well, that person just doesn't want to do the work, or that person has some shit to deal with, or whatever.
Katherine Sleadd:Yeah.
Brooke Monaghan:Whether that's true or not is just like the tone of it, even like it wasn't.
Brooke Monaghan:It wasn't me, it was them, because it has to be somebody right? Like somebody always has to be like at fault or like the you know the wrong one, the bad one, whatever. And then also what happens when we look, because I very much believe that, like we need to open some space for different people to do business differently. But there's also a thing that happens in that where you could see somebody do a thing that you don't agree with and suddenly they're in the unethical category, which is not to say that people don't do fucked up shit, but it is to say that just because somebody is doing something differently than maybe how you would do things, I don't know that we need to draw these clear distinctions between the people who are doing business in a good way and the people who are doing business in a bad way. Or I thought this person was good and then I found out they were bad, sort of.
Brooke Monaghan:And I guess I'm just wondering, like I don't know, as I say that, like, is there anything that's like popping up? Is there anything that's like popping up for you that you're like oh my God, you have so much to say, I already know. I just need to shut up.
Katherine Sleadd:No, no, I love, no, I love more context and building it out, because you know, this is like a, a I don't know a buffet of like fun, fun topics to go over. So I'm like I move my hair out of the way, I'm like, okay, I'm like, do we want like a little like? And now I feel like we should have a theme song, like a little fun moment for psycho-e d. I am obsessed with psycho analysis and it's like you know not just from getting my degree like I would read those books as a hobby, because that's how you can then go down a rabbit hole of what's wrong with me. Um, but, like, what a shame she's fucked in the head.
Katherine Sleadd:There's our first Taylor quote of the day Um, so I think what you've just illustrated there is we put people in these categories of good and bad, and essentially what that is is it's an unconscious defense structure. So we always have somewhere to go so that we can be protected from the uncertainty of nuance, and it's like a very human thing to do. So we're not bad if we do it. We don't need to stop trying to do it. But how can we actually bring it forward into our awareness so we can notice
Katherine Sleadd:we're doing it and then we get to make the choice about, we get to make value judgments and statements about people, but we also get to understand why we're doing that. Are we doing it to protect ourselves or do we actually need to do it so that we are acting in integrity and appropriately evaluating the situation? So splitting is a function of the mind that we Um have as an unconscious defense structure, so it and that we won't. And by that I mean and this is where, like even even in saying this, I'm like I still don't believe it's true Um, like it's unconscious.
Katherine Sleadd:So again we don't fucking know that we're doing it when we're doing it no matter what. So if we can see ourselves when we are like, oh, I put these in categories. Or oh, I'm saying like, well, they just had shit to do. Or or I'm telling myself, I'm just, I'm actually terrible at this and I don't, who do I, who do I think I am? Like you might look back at that like, oh wow, this morning I was, I was splitting, I was putting things in this black and white space because I need to be safe.
Katherine Sleadd:Yeah, and then do I need to do that to be safe? No, I can actually work with what's happened here with some more space. W ith some more freedom for interpretation, with some more curiosity towards myself, curiosity towards the other, and then actually will find you'll find newness there and more data than you would otherwise, does that make sense?
Brooke Monaghan:makes total sense. Yeah, it makes total sense. And, as you're saying that I'm just kind of going back into like so I recently had an experience where I was seeing a person who I really deeply respect do something that I was like, okay, I really really respect this person and I know that they would never intend to do what I see they're doing right now. And it was one of the first times. True, I am 33. This is like embarrassing with this is one of the first times, but it is truly one of the first times.
Brooke Monaghan:[Katherine] I disagree but continue. [Brooke] thank you, truly one of the first times that I was able to go oh, wow, this person who I have so much respect for, who I know is so skilled at what they do and who would never want to do this intentionally, is doing this, and I don't have to choose between shutting up and being okay with it or putting them in the category of oh, you're not who I thought you were. I'm out. And that middle ground of I'm going to maintain space for the respect and for the benefit of the doubt and for the compassion that I have for you and for knowing that you actually are deeply skilled, and also for the fact that in this moment, you're doing a thing that is not actually an integrity and I have to say something because I care about this relationship and because I want to be here is not something that I, at least and I don't think most people were ever taught how to do.
Katherine Sleadd:You know, we weren't. In fact, we were actively conditioned and taught not to do it.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah.
Katherine Sleadd:I mean, that's my other like favorite book that I found towards the end of my process of writing How to Be a Bad Friend, but it was just research done on adolescent girls in the 90s, published, by the way, by the same, if you're a fan of Women Who Run with the Wolves, I feel like that's a lot of people love that book. It's published by the same division of publishing house and in the same year.
Katherine Sleadd:ca ll them like sisters, they're actually sitting on my desk right now, but the book's called Meeting at the Crossroads and it's just about how girls are taught that they cannot have open And. nd you have to silence yourself, but actually the place where, literally, we develop our voice.
Katherine Sleadd:and our capacity for our own identity and our ability to express and communicate that is only happens in conflict. If you think about it, makes sense, because conflict is where two people do not agree and therefore you have one point of view and another point of view, and then if you have two same points of view, then that's, that's also fine. But like there's no uniqueness there, it's homogenous essentially.
Brooke Monaghan:Yes.
Katherine Sleadd:So you can't actually develop yourself without difference. And then to your point, though, to step into this middle space of not going okay, I thought you were good and you're actually not or like just shutting yourself away, is it's a huge risk because of all of this societal conditioning that to address a problem means you then become the problem, as opposed to there being separate things. So good on you.
Brooke Monaghan:I'm sitting here like smiling, with my eyes closed, because my only other call of the day so far was therapy.
Katherine Sleadd:Oh hey.
Brooke Monaghan:And do you want to know what I opened therapy with today?
Katherine Sleadd:Oh, absolutely.
Brooke Monaghan:I was talking about the situation that I just told you about my. I had told my therapist about this situation because it was just not because it was a huge deal actually, but because it was a big deal for me because of the fact that I was exploring that, oh, I really have a tendency to think that my only options are to shut myself down or cut this person off. It just it's a big deal for me and it did feel like a huge risk. And it is a huge risk. I think that we have a tendency to be like you're going to do the right thing and then everything is going to work out, because actually, you might be surprised to hear how people are going to respond to you, which is just a way to be like oh no, it's actually all you, if you just handle things differently, right? That's actually not true, like if you decide that you're going to handle things very, you have no idea how the person is going to respond and it was incredibly risky and it was incredibly emotional for me Because, again, not a huge deal externally, but a huge deal for me, and I said to my therapist today I go okay. So we got past that thing and now I just keep bumping up against.
Brooke Monaghan:Why did you have to be so difficult? That's, the new story is like that didn't really change all of that much to have that conversation. So why did you have to bring it up then? Why be so difficult? You're just difficult, yeah. And so when you were saying, you know, when you bring it up, it makes you the problem, I was like, oh, that's, and that's what I'm doing to myself. No one's doing that to me. I'm doing that to myself. In situations, people do do that to people. In this situation, I was lucky enough that the person did not do that to me and actually was very gracious in the way that they accepted it. But and I'm doing it to myself, probably because of the ways that it actually was done to me so many times before but yeah, that was going to say there's the, that wiring is like that's.
Katherine Sleadd:That's from something, somewhere, yeah, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, I know exactly where that's from. But yeah, there you go. It's not, you know, that's. That's what the first hour of today was for.
Katherine Sleadd:Well, but I think to the point of like stepping into that mental space. You're not, you're also rewriting you know, however many stories you have been made to be the problem for bringing up the fact that there is a problem, yeah, so and so, in a sense, like when you say not a lot changed. Like actually, like a lot did change because you showed up for you, for you, and this relationship and whatever setting, like that of the issue being addressed. But then if it has this like domino effect of where you know, I think it's like easier to. It feels a little gaslighty sometimes to me because of all the times I've spoken up about problems and then it's not gone well, and still believing it matters for my own sake and my own story and my own voice and whatever I'm speaking up about, whoever that impacts. But also like there's something going on that we can't see. Like it's, it's changing a larger narrative to do this.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, and and I think that to be, I guess, to kind of like put a point on this it's like the reason that I really, really wanted to have this conversation with you as one of the first episodes of this new show is because at least what I've learned for myself and I would love to hear if you have thoughts on that, and I would love to hear if you have thoughts on this is that I need, need, really needed to learn how to, in learning how to give people some amount of grace, in holding them accountable to things and doing both, like being in the both and and in that middle space. I've also learned how to do that for me, like they're, they're so like tied up in each other, right, like the thing, the standards that I put myself, I'm casting on other people, the way that I'm interacting with other people, or that's ultimately like one of the standards that I'm putting on me. And when we talk about this concept of make your business work for you, or do business in a way that works for you, and we're existing in this space where there are so many judgments being cast all the time about the right way to do business and the wrong way to do business work. This person is unethical because of this, this person's slimy because of that. So again, sometimes they are.
Brooke Monaghan:But sometimes it's like we need to learn how to look at other people and understand there might be a million things going on that you know nothing about that inform why that person's doing that and in and likewise, you might decide for yourself to do things in a very different way from how the quote unquote good ones told you to do it, and I want that for people like I want people to be able to lean into themselves a bit more and be like I'm going to kind of invent my own way of going about this without feeling like there are these clear categories that I need to kind of like exist in or I don't need. I said that to put a point on it and I totally didn't put a point on it.
Katherine Sleadd:But yeah, I think you did. I'll field it back. I like as if we kind of maybe round out the client ghosting. What I hear you saying is actually like you had this opportunity to ghost is, in essence, either ghost yourself by disavowing your experience and staying in [brooke] oh my God, self ghosting, holy shit. [katherine] And and something I say about, like our experience is, nothing is going to change unless your experience matters. So it's one of the big not you're not making it the focus of everything, but it is important data that if you're not listening to it, you're going nowhere. So you could ghost yourself or you could ghost the person you know that is in the scenario you're talking about, and you didn't. And you, you showed up in the middle space.
Katherine Sleadd:I think that there's two things about that. Like, when you are ghosted by a client, there's some breakdown in communication that has happened and maybe that's all on them. Maybe you've created the container where actually you do need to actually be real honest with yourself to say, like actually I have created a good container here and I'm just not going to know what happens, but I'm not going to participate in accusing myself or accusing them and sit with that, sit with the discomfort of that. Yeah, but there's an M, there's a middle space there where now nothing will be unless somehow they come back around. Essentially. So, to come back to what you're saying, you, you showed up in that middle space, and I think the second thing that that also does is it makes it more painful than if you're ever left there, because if you took a chance on it, why won't somebody else?
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, so yeah, it's really.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, I was, I was hanging there for a minute and I was like a mess, but again it's like yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Brooke Monaghan:I think I said everything that I was going to say on it.
Brooke Monaghan:The other thing that I think I wanted to pull into this conversation is when okay, so putting it in those terms of when you're in a situation where you could either ghost yourself or ghost that person, or you could show up in the middle and what it feels like to not be met there there's a thing that is at risk there, which is not just the relationship with that person, but potentially your entire shared community, and I know that community loss is something that you talk a lot about, that you've experienced, and I think that it would be really helpful to have a conversation about this, because so many of the support programming for small business owners including my own, by the way is in groups, and I don't know that people give themselves enough credit for how risky it can feel to show up as yourself when you're in a space where it feels like you have created a, you belong with this group of people, and if you show up authentically as yourself or if you show up in that middle space with somebody in that group.
Brooke Monaghan:What could potentially happen if everyone thinks a thing about you and now you lose your whole fucking community? That's like a huge deal and it's playing out in support spaces in the business world.
Katherine Sleadd:Yeah, it is. I mean, I guess you would have an eye on that, but as somebody that's been with your group for three years, I will say I'm sitting here going like so what do you think the magic sauce is, Brooke, because this is like you cultivate community that I've been a part of and felt able to show up authentically and been able to do a lot because of that.
Brooke Monaghan:That makes me incredibly happy to hear Kat, but honestly, I don't know how much that came from. I feel really lucky, I think in part by the group of people that we have. I feel incredibly lucky for how things played out because I don't think that I I'm very aware of it now because of the experiences that I've had, but I don't think that I was like really particularly skilled, yeah, in doing that.
Katherine Sleadd:But maybe that's where, like, coming back to showing up authentically, yeah, but the risk, I think the thing is, there's not a guarantee that goes with it. So maybe, like I think I don't like the measure of luck, true, but you show up authentically and that I think that there gets to be a crossroads when we are encountering someone who's being authentic, you know, like we get to like join them there or we don't or we.
Katherine Sleadd:I think, I don't know I'm going to get out in the weeds, but I also think.
Brooke Monaghan:Get in the weeds. The weeds are great.
Katherine Sleadd:The weeds okay, the weeds are great. So if we, psycho ed point two of the day, I think all of us actually, like, deep down, really want authenticity because we want to be known and we want to also know and connect. And we can't do that because if we're not being who we are. There might be some sort of fake connection. And again, I'm not making a value judgment. It's just not satiating the place in us that does need connection for whatever purpose. But like, if we come back to like business, the vulnerability of entrepreneurship, you like damn, you're on the roller coaster all the time, you know.
Katherine Sleadd:So the psycho ed piece of it being because we want that, if we are not showing up for that for ourselves and we see someone else doing it, the other unconscious defense thing we'll do is find a way to mar that, whether we diminish or we undercut, we do something that will make that person that we are and this is the function of envy, less enviable to us, so that we feel safer. And I see this happen a lot. I would say I don't want to gender things entirely but, like in a white supremacist, capitalist society that men have been privileged to be able to kind of go at it with each other, and I don't know if I wouldn't say that that's necessarily health. But there is something to our need, our need to engage each other in, in difference and in conflict and intention that hasn't necessarily been afforded to anyone else.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, it really is.
Brooke Monaghan:It's just been so interesting to me to kind of do my own healing work around so much of the stuff that you talk about just being able to show up fully in relationships and know that like real relationship, like exactly what you said, like real relationship and growth and relationship and knowing each other comes through that conflict.
Brooke Monaghan:It's being able to meet each other in disagreement and being able to do my work on that while I've been in business and leading people and running groups and all of that has been fascinating to me because I realize it's.
Brooke Monaghan:It actually has happened really rapidly for me where I can look back on the ways that I thought about things a few years ago and be like, oh my gosh, you were so confused, like you know that was like you are so confused about what you're doing and about how all this works and stuff and that's like that's okay.
Brooke Monaghan:You know I have compassion for myself in that moment, but as I witness this for myself and then I look more at the space that we're in, I see all of these setups that I do think reinforce, of course, reinforce this dynamic of like this is how we're supposed to interact with in relationships set up in coaching relationships or in different programs or whatever, especially programs that are supposed to foster, like, deep connection between people and don't seem to acknowledge like, but that actually like. That actually sets up a dynamic where it's actually going to be a lot harder for people to hold you accountable to things or speak up, because now there's an entire community around this that they feel really attached to and if that's not that, there's a lot of responsibility that comes with that, I think or at least we should understand what we're doing.
Katherine Sleadd:Well, I think it's a fantasy. We have a fantasy of community that a lot of us are working with. Like I mean, I don't know if your, your community is based on the fact that you have community. I don't know that, like, the clique exists because people are outside it. Yes, so, and again it's like how wonked our whole you know world is. I mean, I guess I shouldn't generalize that much, but like individualist mindset is that the fantasy of community is, is not what it what it actually is. Say more on that. Well, I'm going to get out of my depth quickly. But if you look at like, so I'll just say like read indigenous authors.
Katherine Sleadd:There's popular book Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer talking about, like, our relationship with community. She doesn't talk about this, but so I'm going to relate it back to her real quick. Like we want to go out with our friends, we want to hang out, we want to have fun, we want to like collaborate, we want to like there's always some sort of like give and get in it. Yeah, and I think there's health to that in that we want to make sure that there's mutuality. But like, where does that get defined? What do we do when we feel like we're giving too much. What do we feel? What do we do with our insecurity
Katherine Sleadd:When we feel like we're not giving enough and that's very like exchange rate basis, like, again, unconsciously, I don't think we're, we're not. This isn't all like. We're not like, okay, you, I spent five minutes talking, you spent five minutes talking, but that's not. We're not connected to the natural world, we're not connected to our community's needs.
Katherine Sleadd:A lot of our things like I think I mean my closest friends do not live close to me, and so there's ways that I'm also like I'm not making a value judgment on it, it's just noticing how disconnected we are from everything else. Our community groups are not multifaceted. We tend to be, you know, within our own class socioeconomically. So we talk about community. I think the particularity and the focus is good to where you could be around people where you have enough similarity so that you can have like a resonance that will let you grow and create that like inspiration and the ability to support if that makes sense. But community as a whole is so much wider than just being with a group of people who are all doing the same thing that you're doing [brooke] yes, of course yes yes [Katherine] so that's the other.
Katherine Sleadd:So then, to come back to like the Braiding Sweetgrass she talks about, like this lake that she has, like by her house that has become overgrown and has like I don't think it was toxic, but it was just like the wrong kind of algae was in it and it was affected of like this whole thing. So it means it all out, and I think she has some neighbors come and like there's just a sense of a way of being that we are so far from when it comes to community that you know, that's kind of where I think the wider picture of it is. If that makes sense, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan:Do you think, we're speculating it. I'm asking you to speculate. So what you say to this I'm accountable this I'm responsible for this this, group setting you up for this.
Brooke Monaghan:[katherine] Okay, all right.
Brooke Monaghan:[Brooke] Okay. What I'm thinking, though, is like so I'm hearing you say all of this and I'm like yes, and in groups that I've been a part of, community spaces that I've been in, and how terrifying it can feel to be like Maybe I don't you know what, if, if I do this thing, does it mean that I'm going to lose everybody here? Or if someone makes a judgment about me, is that going to spread through this group of people and then no one's going to like me anymore, or no one's going to want to be like my friend anymore, or whatever? I think about how strong that fear of losing a group of people is, and I wonder because the reason that I brought this up was to kind of point to like, if you exist in these online quote unquote, online community spaces where you actually create a sense of belonging with people and whatever, like I think that you should give yourself some, I think we should all give ourselves some grace for, and then those of us running communities should really pay attention to the dynamics that play out.
Brooke Monaghan:I guess I wonder, with all everything that you just said, I'm like I wonder if the reason, if part of the reason that things can feel so when we find a quote unquote online community space where we're connected to people. If part of the reason that it feels so like such a big deal is in part because of the fact that many of us are lacking actual community.
Brooke Monaghan:[Katherine] Yeah, oh yeah, [Brooke] and this like small, this one little taste of it, yes, it's like charged, you know, because it's like oh, oh my gosh, like what is this, you know?
Katherine Sleadd:Well, I think actually what I haven't thought of this literally until you're saying it right now and my book, you know kind of where I'm leading the reader is what shaped your friendship dynamics and the connection to your attachment of family dynamics and the ways that what you didn't, what you didn't when you don't recognize that you didn't get what you needed.
Katherine Sleadd:Y ou go and look for that in other people. Again, human good necessary. How we heal, we need other people like. The moment that I figure out how we don't like, you'll be the first to know like I'm still trying to do it on my own.
Brooke Monaghan:[Katherine] Okay? committed.
Katherine Sleadd:So, anyhow, sorry, yeah, I'm sorry. Laughing at myself here. Is that like these wounds from our parents, like this unconditional love wound, like we're actually looking for friends to love us unconditionally while not actually simultaneously being on hook to do that for them. Or vice versa, we're providing unconditional love for somebody who actually has no interest in returning it to us because there's something off there where, like that isn't a need. We're meant to meet with each other but it's so charged because we're finally seeing someone who is connecting and accepting us for no reason other than they just like us. And so if you, you know, you tell yourself that your mom liked you, but deep down inside you there's parts of you that are like she didn't like me, you know, then you meet someone who does like you. It's that charge.
Katherine Sleadd:So, to come back to your point about community, I think there's that similar thing of like we are. Really we have to. I think we need to confront our lack of community, the true lack of it. We do need to find it where we can and notice how much of our need for community we're actually funneling into a place that can't hold it. Can't, and how do we sit with that, our unmet needs. How do we sit with that lack? Well, together. together, does that kind of make sense?
Brooke Monaghan:Yes, it makes total sense. I just keep taking very deep breaths over here because you keep saying things and I'm like oh my gosh, so true. I think this is going to be one of those ones that people are going to. I would highly recommend a re-listen. I don't normally listen to my podcast episodes after I put them out, and this one I think I'm going to listen to because I think that there's so much in what you're saying that I truly am like I mean, if well, some people will see my face because I am recording the video of this but I'm kind of like looking at you, like every word that comes out of your mouth I'm like uh-huh, and? And what's the end of the story, Kat? And then what? Like? I just feel like you are just really explaining some things that are I'm slowly catching up.
Katherine Sleadd:Well it's, I am Thanks, I'm glad to, but I and also that's an again, if we talk about difference and we talk about connection and relationship, I'm able to be connected to my voice in this conversation with you because one, my body's settled and also you're someone also connected to your voice and you, you and I have similarities. We also have differences and so, yeah, there's a cultivation of what I'm able to say is a testament to questions you're asking and conversation we're having.
Brooke Monaghan:Thanks, Kat. ell, I think that you are truly fucking brilliant. I really do. I am telling everybody that I meet to read your book because, again, I'm just like, oh my gosh, like I just am seeing it everywhere and I think that it's really powerful. And I also just, you know, there are few people who there's not many people who fall into this category. Look, we're categorizing people now. There's not many people who fall into this category.
Brooke Monaghan:You squarely fall into this category for me and a few other peers of mine and people who I know, who. I look at the work that you do and I truly am struck by how seriously you take it and the integrity that you do it with and just the depth of it. Like, your work is beyond you trying to establish yourself and it's beyond you trying to look smart and it's beyond all of those things that I don't think a lot of people are like. I don't think that that's the main driver for most people, but it's clearly a huge driver for lots of folks. And for you, one of the things that I've just seen always be non-negotiable for you is that you're thinking really, really deeply and intentionally about what you're doing and that you're showing up aligned with that. It's like an absolute core to what I've witnessed and I just honestly am honored to know you and I think that you're brilliant.
Katherine Sleadd:Thank you, I want to actually follow that up. Thank you, I receive that. I want to come back to something you said earlier that I realized actually, like don't want to leave this episode without noting, because you said a few times and we actually have a touch on it. Like, what if you say the thing and you lose everyone? What if you show up and it doesn't work out? Because there isn't, there is not a formula. I think there's ways we can fuck it up, there's ways we could fuck it up and it could still work out.
Katherine Sleadd:Yeah, but are you going to show up or not with your own authenticity, in difference and in conflict? And does that mean you might lose your community? And I guess I wanted to come back to that to say, yes, it might mean that. And it might mean that repeatedly, I continue to find myself at those crossroads and I'm kind of realizing, oh, this might be a lifelong thing, not that I'll never belong, or not that I'm maybe not repeating some patterns or things like that and also like to take what you've just said and offer it to the viewer.
Katherine Sleadd:It's humiliating to lose your community. Because people then categorize you and make judgments about you and, yes, the rumor mill still works yeah, it still works, and I guess in whoever's listening like, will you continue to offer yourself dignity, because I've been repeatedly humiliated again and again, and again, and I wrote a book about it and one of the things I think that has come to make the most difference is that I will offer myself dignity and I will continue to show up for myself with dignity, with honesty and authenticity and looking at my own failures. But you can offer yourself dignity even if no one else will, and you also don't have to take the risk, but I hope you do.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, yeah. And if you're hearing this and you're like, how? Like, what are you talking about? Kat has a practice and you can work with Kat one on one, in addition to reading the book, and I just I mean again, everyone's heard me say it I think that you take the space that you hold incredibly seriously, and if anyone's listening to this and thinking this is just earth shattering, you should go and find Kat's work. I'm going to put all the links in the show notes and all of that. Yeah, Kat, I am so grateful that we did this. Thank you so much for being here this is fantastic.
Katherine Sleadd:Thank you, thanks for the invitation. So good to see you. [Brooke] You too.