You've probably heard about repurposing content as a strategy to make your marketing more effective (in fact, we talked about it with Angie Jordan in this episode). But if you've tried repurposing content yourself, maybe you're wondering:
In today's episode, we are joined by Tristan Katz (they/he). Tristan is an educator, consultant, facilitator, and writer who works at the intersection of marketing, equity, and inclusion as well as creating inclusive, equitable, and safer spaces for trans people.
In this episode, Tristan shares how they have leveraged content repurposing to create a meaningful contribution to their field, have an impact, and effectively market their work without constantly being on the content creation hamster wheel.
Here is a look at what you will hear in this episode:
05:52 - How to grow your business by shifting focus away from other people's ideas and toward your own
08:20 - Tristan Katz's solution for sustainable social media marketing
10:02 - Why simply repurposing content isn't enough + how to be create a strategic content repurposing strategy
14:05 - Determining what content "works" for you and your audience when deciding what to repurpose and how
25:02 - Rethinking content pillars through an impact lens
30:05 - How to make social media marketing easier by focusing on impact and authenticity
46:20 - Why you should not making buying or strategy decisions based on your perception of what works for others
50:05 - How to create an offer suite that makes your work more accessible to your audience
Links to resources we reference in this episode
Podcast episode: How to ditch traditional marketing in favor of relationship building
Connect with Tristan
Website
Instagram
Patreon
You've probably heard about repurposing content as a strategy to make your marketing more effective (in fact, we talked about it with Angie Jordan in this episode). But if you've tried repurposing content yourself, maybe you're wondering:
In today's episode, we are joined by Tristan Katz (they/he). Tristan is an educator, consultant, facilitator, and writer who works at the intersection of marketing, equity, and inclusion as well as creating inclusive, equitable, and safer spaces for trans people.
In this episode, Tristan shares how they have leveraged content repurposing to create a meaningful contribution to their field, have an impact, and effectively market their work without constantly being on the content creation hamster wheel.
Here is a look at what you will hear in this episode:
05:52 - How to grow your business by shifting focus away from other people's ideas and toward your own
08:20 - Tristan Katz's solution for sustainable social media marketing
10:02 - Why simply repurposing content isn't enough + how to be create a strategic content repurposing strategy
14:05 - Determining what content "works" for you and your audience when deciding what to repurpose and how
25:02 - Rethinking content pillars through an impact lens
30:05 - How to make social media marketing easier by focusing on impact and authenticity
46:20 - Why you should not making buying or strategy decisions based on your perception of what works for others
50:05 - How to create an offer suite that makes your work more accessible to your audience
Links to resources we reference in this episode
Podcast episode: How to ditch traditional marketing in favor of relationship building
Connect with Tristan
Website
Instagram
Patreon
I'm saying this a lot lately. Nobody's studying your marketing content more than you are. Nobody's going to come into my DMs and be like, but you already said this six months ago. When I say it again and add the additional thoughts, reflections, depth to it, it's like if somebody was served by it the first time, well then, they're going to be served by it even more this time.
Brooke Monaghan:Hi friends, welcome to another episode of Make your Business Work For You. We are back with a late episode this week because if you are not up to date from my Instagram or from my newsletter, you might not know that last week I lost my 14 and a half year old dog, Socrates, who was just the sweetest and just my baby. For a long time I have wondered if I would be able to survive that day, and it happened. And as a result of that, I changed some things up. One of those things being that on the day that I was going to edit and get this episode up, I decided I needed rest more than I needed to keep the podcast on track. So we're a little bit late this week. Now, in addition to that, I have also moved some things around for myself to give myself some more space, because, when I tell you, the grief is exhausting, oh my God. So, with that, Fruition Growth Network is not going to be launching until November, and that means that the workshop that we reference in this episode is not actually happening in October anymore. It's going to be happening on November 28th. I decided to still air this episode now because, to be honest with you, it's just a really needed episode.
Brooke Monaghan:I'm interviewing Tristan Katz. Tristan uses they and he pronouns. Tristan's one of my favorite people on the face of the earth. If you have been around for any period of time, then you've probably heard episodes that we have recorded. You've probably heard me shout them out left and right. This particular episode came after Tristan and I got on a call together because I have the privilege of being on a Tristan and I text each other about business stuff constantly and so we jumped on a call together and we were talking about some of the things that they were going through and kind of where their work is going, and as a result of that call, it was like okay, like we need to talk about this part of your work on the podcast because it's just, it speaks just spot on to so many of the marketing struggles that I know many of us are having right now. Also I was at Tristan's house like the week before we recorded this. We were going to record it in person while I was there visiting, but we decided we would prefer to drink daiquiris in their backyard. So you will hear me reference that as well.
Brooke Monaghan:A couple of helpful things before we get into this episode. First of all, I'm putting links to a couple of past podcast episodes that Tristan and I have done together so that if you want to hear more from Tristan, that's another place where you can go, if you kind of like the vibe of this conversation. Also if you go to Apple podcasts and you just search for Tristan Katz, I would also just say, if you're a podcast listener, like there's someone you want to hear more from, go to Apple podcasts and search for the person's name and you're going to get a whole bunch of episodes that they've been in. That's a great way that you can hear more from Tristan as well, or anyone else that you hear about on the show. Also, I am using chapter markers. I don't know if you use chapter markers, listener, but there's a good chance that, whatever player you use, there's actually a spot now where you can pull up markers of like what is covered at different time stamps.
Brooke Monaghan:So if you found this episode really helpful or any of the future episodes that we do and there are specific things that you want to come back to, it should make it easier for you to go ahead and come back to those.
Brooke Monaghan:Also, you could go ahead and pull those up ahead of time and jump to parts of the conversation that are relevant to you, so I just wanted to point that out because they're there and I know that I never use that function and so, in case you didn't even know it was a thing, they're there now you can go ahead and look for those.
Brooke Monaghan:I'm also doing extended show notes for these episodes now, which will become available soon, and so you can always go to joinfruition. com if you want to dive into any of the resources or links that are shared for each of the episodes, starting with this one, and if you are enjoying the episodes so far and you have not yet left a rating and review on Apple podcasts, please, please, go ahead and do so. It helps out a lot. One of the long term plans for Fruition is that we are funding some of our programming through sponsors, and so getting this out to as many people as possible is a really important thing for this show, specifically given that we would like to use some of that funding to subsidize support for some small business owners. So thank you for helping us out. Let's talk about effective, meaningful, sustainable social media marketing with Tristan Katz. It's nice to see you, even though I was just in your house.
Tristan Katz:Yes, actually, this is true, I agree. I feel like the other you were here, than there.
Brooke Monaghan:Me too, me too. So I feel like we have to rewind in time, and a lot has happened since this conversation, but I don't know how many weeks ago it was. We had a whole conversation about your work and about the way that you it actually originally started as thinking of an offer.
Tristan Katz:Actually, can I back up a minute? Because it originally started with me obsessively spiraling, studying other people's marketing and business models and texting you about my spirals, and you were like you want to hop on a call and I can just ask you some questions about what you're experiencing, and I was like, yes, thank you.
Brooke Monaghan:Yes, yes, and then that call was like a couple hours long. Yes, and it was great fun for me anyway. And I feel like initially we got on that call because you were thinking about some kind of mentorship program kind of thing or some kind of like. Maybe there's like a group program in here, maybe there's a different offer.
Tristan Katz:Yeah, I feel like we got on the call because I was looking for the capital A answer yet again and thought that maybe you'd find it this time and give it to me. Surprise. You actually did. Just not in the way that I was hoping for or expecting.
Brooke Monaghan:But this is the thing. If anybody who's listening doesn't already know me, you should know that I am the anti-capital A answer person. But the reason why is because I actually think that, to get as close to that as possible, there's lots of sirens happening. I'm not sure how much of that you can hear. I don't hear it at all. Great, to get as close to the answer as possible, you need to take your eye off of trying to look for it, because it leads you away from your own ideas.
Tristan Katz:Yes, and I was looking for it so hard that I thought that I could find it by listening to somebody's podcast episode all day long, every day, or like studying somebody's gross program.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah.
Tristan Katz:Yeah, and I was looking outward to find the answer and you helped me reorient and turn someplace else. I don't know what you did, but you did some witchery magic.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah. So then we discovered that you have a whole process around content creation that you use in your own business, and that also seems like it could have filled almost a hole in your offers.
Tristan Katz:Yes, it was something you helped me see that I have a process that I haven't been -- I've been teaching, but not. I've been teaching around it. I've been teaching about it but not teaching the process.
Brooke Monaghan:Yes. So the part that I keep coming back to when I think about this conversation is the part where you were like, yeah, like all that I do is I just have like, basically this whole bank of content and I'm just like recycling it all the time.
Tristan Katz:Yeah.
Brooke Monaghan:And that's actually what I would want to help other people do, and if they could do that, like it would be so much more sustainable. And I was like wait, a second, hold on, hang on, because we've all heard about repurposing content and that's part of this. But really I think that what you are getting at is like first you develop like a meaningful contribution, right, like you first get clear on like what it is that you want to say. And in there too, there's like all of this work that you've done around, like how do we use marketing as almost a form of activism? How do we market our work and also move social change, like through the messaging and all of that, like how can we do all of that at the same time? Yeah, so it's like that's all nested into the process that you use for content creation.
Brooke Monaghan:And we were just able to kind of get clear on it. And you are going to be teaching a workshop which is going to be free in October in Fruition, kind of around this concept, and so I kind of thought maybe we could talk about it, because I think everybody listening is like okay, tell me more, because that's what I want to do. Everyone keeps saying that repurposing content is so easy and I keep trying to do it and it's not doing anything. So it's like what are the differences, you know?
Tristan Katz:Yeah, that's such an important question because it isn't as simple as just like go repurpose everything. I think the point is you have to find the pieces of content that are your maybe like core messages and I'm not just saying core messages, because it's like it's like both. It's like, yes, your core messages, like the things you want to say, some of the anchoring like concepts that you teach in your work. It's that. But it's also like looking back to see what worked in your marketing. So I feel like what I'm doing when I repurpose my content and I'm not just talking about like trying to fill in the missing pieces, but like repurposing with the intention of having something actually make a-- Like there's a difference between like posting to fill space because you have to say something, and then posting because you've got something that's really juicy and potentially going to make an impact.
Tristan Katz:And I feel like when I think about posting somebody something that's really juicy and actually going to reach people and make an impact, I have to look back at what has worked well. So what I am normally doing is looking back for the last two to three years at all the content I've posted on Instagram, for example, and like pulling out the four or five typically carousel slides that have gone more viral. I'm putting that in quotes because I think viral is like kind of a garbage concept and and really like based on like audience size and like a whole you know a bunch of different things like you can go viral with you know whatever. It doesn't have to be this big, huge, you know mind blowing thing that happens, but anyways.
Brooke Monaghan:And also nobody wants to talk about how, when you go viral, suddenly you have to field the whole bunch of assholes in your comments and like deal with a whole bunch of bullshit that you never even wanted to deal with and a bunch of people are now looking at your shit who you don't actually want to be engaging with and all that.
Tristan Katz:No, yeah, no. The goal is not to go viral. By the way, when you go viral, that's not the answer either. Right like that and full transparency. I feel like, in this zoom call that you and I had for two and a half hours, part of the conversation was me being like. But these people on Instagram have hundreds of thousands of followers Brooke, and why don't I have hundreds of thousands of followers? And if I only did, then maybe that would be the answer to like all of my financial stability and business problems right, yeah.
Tristan Katz:And we know that's not the case. Like, if you dig into it, the narrative is if you have this many followers, you are fine. I don't think that's what's actually happening, and so people are engaging with meaningful or like impactful content, but they're not necessarily clicking through to your website and so, yeah, I. But that means we just need to be putting out more. To me. And I'm not saying more empty shit, I'm saying more consistent, meaningful stuff, which is why the repurposing thing is so crucial, because if I create one like solid carousel slide post and I'm talking about like getting really concise, not being too wordy, like making the graphic look like good, like one solid carousel slide, I think can be turned into like fricking 20 pieces of additional content. Yeah, and that's the part I want to get at is like, if you can figure out what works and I see a lot of folks like trying a lot of text or like the design is missing something, like we have to narrow down all of these different approaches, [Brooke Monaghan] I just like sm acked my mic in my excitement of writing something down.
Brooke Monaghan:[Tristan Katz] I'm rambling now.
Brooke Monaghan:[Brooke Monaghan] No. So I'm hearing you talk about what works, and what's coming to mind for me is something that and I'm going to link to past podcast episodes that you and I have done right for other podcasts, because I think we've talked a lot about this. But in case people are just hearing us talk about this for the first time, or you talk about this for the first time, one of the things that's really important here is that you, Tristan, are very intentional about creating community and having real relationships with people, and I think that that's why you are able to look at your stats of quote, unquote, what works and then choose, based on what works, what you're going to repurpose and have it not be hollow, because for you, what works is aligned with what matters to you and it's aligned with what your meaningful contribution to the field is, because of the fact that you've been very intentional about creating an actual community and actual relationships with people. So it's not just conversion rates. [Tristan Katz] No [Brooke Monaghan] It's people are responded.
Brooke Monaghan:People in my community are responding to this in a way where it's clear that they need to hear this again. [Tristan Katz] Yes. [Brooke Monaghan] And that, I think, is like a really important, like foundation to understanding how you approach this differently from maybe other people who are just looking at okay, well, you do this because it works. It might not be aligned with values or it might not be aligned with what the meaningful contribution to the field is, but it works, so let's just keep doing it. Which creates, recreates business as usual. So I'm almost thinking like, do we need to? I don't know, Tristan, right on your thing, next to you, creating community in your thing, because I'm like the whole thing doesn't really actually work without that part.
Tristan Katz:I'm just I did write it down creating community, because I am really in inquiry like what does it actually mean, though, to create community on social media? So I hear what you're saying and I'm like I'm agreeing with you. I'm like, yes, everything you're saying is true. I've done that, I'm putting that in quotes, but I'm also like I only, I only follow. I think I'm at 700. I keep trying to get the number down. I think I'm following 715 people. If I'm only following 715 people, How am I, I'm like tell me, though? How do people what kind of? Do you see what I'm saying?
Brooke Monaghan:Because I think that people are finding you. This is a conversation we've had before. You're a person who I look to as an example of okay, and this is part of what I was really hoping to communicate to you when we were talking about the "but why don't I have more followers on Instagram? Yeah, Because you, to me, are an example of how you can grow your following on social media. Not by necessarily going viral or being more visible on social media, but instead by being visible in actual like community spaces.
Tristan Katz:I see what you're saying. Yes.
Brooke Monaghan:So people, I think, are finding you because there are people who are referring you, who have trust in you. They were at an event or something like that, like you're very actively engaged with the people who I'm sure there's a lot of people who follow you who have not been in a space with you in person, but I think that that's the thing that is actually having people come and find you. Not necessarily the algorithm.
Tristan Katz:I hear what you're saying and I agree with you. Yes, yeah, and sometimes it's the algorithm, but that's not what my main I don't know point of connection is.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah.
Tristan Katz:Yeah, thank you, that's an interesting observation.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, and also I would be interested. I don't know, like I don't know because you you're the person who I look to as the person who does this so well. So like I would be curious if you really think about, like what does that actually mean? Or like, why is it? Why is it that you, Tristan, are able to look at your insights and go what performed really well over the past few years, and the things that performed well are things that you actually want to keep repeating?
Tristan Katz:I mean, I do want to keep repeating them, but let me also be clear I'm thinking about one post in particular that I've reworked I don't know, maybe four times. And also let me be clear that when I rework these posts, it's in part yes, it is in part to repurpose and put it out again, but it's also in part to reflect that over time, my understanding of the thing that I'm teaching about has changed, right, and how I talk about it has changed, and now I have new things I want to say about it, or a corrected or updated understanding about it, or whatever. And so an example is there's a post I probably put out I'm guessing, twice a year on women with an X. It's not just on womxn with an X, right, it's on the way we relate to language, how we can be inclusive with our language, but how we can be performative and non-inclusive with our language. It's a commentary on the obsession that we have with, like, if I could just get the word right, then it'll mean that I'm the good person and people come into my space and I'll be safe, right. So it's that kind of post. But the title slide is focused on women with an X and that gets people in to the larger conversation. You know what I'm saying.
Tristan Katz:And so am I excited to keep talking about women with an X? No, am I. Do I want to keep talking about it every single day? No, do I want to talk about it several times a year? I don't know. But I'm excited to make an impact. And it seems that people still need to hear about inclusive language and the way we're reinforcing, you know, the gender binary with our language, or cis-heteronormativity or whatever. And people are still having a conversation about, like, what keywords do I use in my work? Like, how do I talk about who I specialize in and niche down and whatever the hell. And so, to me, am I excited to keep talking about it? Not necessarily, but I know the conversation needs to keep happening. Right, and I do want to be a part of that conversation. So I don't know if that makes sense, but it's not like I'm like, yeah, I can't wait to do this again, you know.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, no, I totally get it. I just think about like I don't know if you've gotten, the more that I talk to people about the ads that I get, the more that I realize how different our experiences are because of the fact that the fucking algorithm knows what we respond to better than we even do and the way that our brains work makes it so that we get targeted with different shit. But I've started getting this particular flavor of ad where it's this really weird video that has nothing to do with the thing that the person is saying. So, for example, you know that brand of that particular flavor of video where it's like someone like icing a cookie. Do you know what I mean and it's like you just want to watch it. You're just like this is satisfying to watch. Or the hydraulic press videos. Do you ever watch the hydraulic press videos? [Do you know what I'm talking about?
Brooke Monaghan:Okay, there's this whole series of videos. You should go on YouTube and look it up after this. There's a whole series of videos where people just put different things under this press and you just watch it smash it, and then there's like a spin off where people take that and then they make a side by side of them trying to reenact what it looked like when that thing got smashed, and wearing different outfits that are the color of it, and they're like contorting themselves in a way. That is like it's hilarious. Anyways, anyways, I have a point to all of this. [I know you do.
Brooke Monaghan:[There's a certain type of company brand person who's literally looking at quote unquote what works in terms of what keeps eyes on a thing. That's the way the algorithm works. Yes, and they're trying to gain the algorithm. So they're looking at oh, icing cookies really keeps people's attention. I'm going to put a video of icing cookies in my ad and then over it there's going to be captions and voice of me talking about some fucking software that has nothing to do with anything. Why? Because it's going to keep people on it and that's going to make it go in front of more people. Whatever. Right? For you. There is something that you have done, which makes it so that what works in your insights is somehow aligned with impact, and I think that that's coming from the fact that the people who are finding you are finding you for quote nquote the right reasons?
Tristan Katz:In wonder because part of what I hear you saying in that and I'm really appreciating what you're saying and what you're sharing and part of what I hear you saying is there's people out there looking at what works and using that information to be manipulative in their marketing. And I want to look at what works in my marketing and use that to be meaningful, right?
Brooke Monaghan:RBut how often is it that you look at what works in your marketing and you're like, oh, if I just reworked this piece of content or I guess maybe an example of that would be okay. The womn with an X cover slide gets people through the door, so I'm going to use that and then I'm going to hook people in with that and then use the fact that I have their attention to get them to do something else aside from making an actual contribution in the conversation.
Tristan Katz:I mean, I guess what I want to say is, when I look at what works, I think content, what's been working, but also graphic design, because I think on Instagram, as a visual platform, the design is really important to pull people in, and so I'm using like, I'm focusing on the text and the look and feel to see what works, and then I take that information and filter it through what feels right for me, like maybe what feels right is changing the title slide completely this time, because I don't you know what I mean, because whatever I've said last time doesn't feel good anymore, or I'm tired of saying X, Y and Z, so I have to check in with what still feels aligned for me in that moment, rather than being like, well, I need to reach more people, so I'll just think about what works and be manipulative w information.
Tristan Katz:Right, Does that make sense [Totally. Yeah, yeah, I really I want that's. The thing is like. I think a lot of what is taught in the marketing space is super manipulative and gross and some of it is super valuable and we can use it skillfully rather than manipulatively and grossly.
Brooke Monaghan:Yes, yeah, yes, great and so okay. So, then, one of the things that we had talked about is kind of like what needs to happen for you to actually even be able to approach this in this way, like people aren't going to be able to just like come into a conversation about repurposing content and how to create meaningful content without having done the other work. Y nodding very quickly, so just, I would like for you to just say more.
Tristan Katz:I mean, this is what I'm thinking about. Like, how do I get folks into what I think are content pillars, but not content pillars in the way that the marketing dominant culture people talk about content pillars. I'm not talking about, like tips and techniques, value posts, whatever. I'm talking about like, okay, when I think about my content, well, inclusive language and like sharing power with language and using language as a solidarity tool that is meaningful. That's one of my content pillars. So, and then, like, maybe another content pillar is I'm laughing is like reminding people not to erase trans folks in the conversation about abortion rights. You know what I mean.
Tristan Katz:Like what I'm saying, what I'm doing in my head right now is I'm thinking back to the last three years of the content I've put out and what has been really popular. So it's not necessarily like what I talk about over and over again, though sometimes those two intersect and overlap. I'm also thinking about what has really made an impact in the audience, owhatever. And so then I take those pieces of content and for some reason, my brain says, ideally, there are five pillars that we work with and those five pieces of content like, if it's me and I'm thinking inclusive language or trans abortion access. Of course, thinking about our dear S Galante hi Steph, [hi Steph If this doesn't get added out, I'm thinking about Steph and like the relationship that she talks about to self-care and challenging systems of oppression right and reclaiming self-care outside of capitalism and white supremacy.
Tristan Katz:Like to me, she's got several content pillars that relate to that theme, or maybe it's just one, but like I can see easily, like she's got some pillars, you've got pillars and again, these aren't [Good to know because I wasn't aware. No, you definitely, and I'm like, but it's not just like, oh, these are the five things I talk about in my brand. It's like these are the things that I come back to over and over again because I know my audience needs to hear it. And I csay it over and over again in different ways because I'm in constant relationship to this thing and learning about it, and so the next time I talk about it, it's going to be even more meaningful because it's going to be more authentic with where I'm at in my own learning or whatever a growth, and it's going to come across differently because I've changed in relationship to it. You're having a moment, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan:How could you tell?
Tristan Katz:What happened?
Brooke Monaghan:You saying you're in constant relationship to it and so things have changed, and so it's like being able to revisit this and add. epth is part of what I'm hearing.
Tristan Katz:Yes, and then each time you add depth, it's like, first of all, nobody's going to come back and say to me I mean, maybe somebody will someday. Tristan, you post about this two times a year. I always am saying this a lot lately. Nobody's studying your marketing content more than you are. Nobody's going to come into my DMs and be like but you already said this six months ago. And when I say it again and add the additional thoughts, reflections, depth to it, it's like if somebody was served by it the first time, well then, they're going to be served by it even more this time. And so I'm serving the same person over and over again, even helping them integrate this learning over time.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, yeah, and I've had, because I'm even less creative than you are. I go back into my insights and I literally share the exact same post again. I don't even change anything about it.
Tristan Katz:See, I don't think there's anything wrong with that and I think it's going to be more effective if we repackage it.
Brooke Monaghan:Right. So oftentimes what I'll do is I'll share the same like graphic and I change the caption that's with it. And when I've done that, this is just to the point of people coming and saying, oh well, you post about this two times a year. I've done that before and had people comment. I remember this from the first time that you posted it. Thank you so much for reminding me. I've had that happen several times so people might notice and they might be like oh right, you know, like thank you so much for bringing that up again, because the algorithm's not going to.
Tristan Katz:Right, they're not going to be like and now I'm un following you because you said this six months ago yeah. And maybe they will, but if that's the case, that's not somebody you need to be in relationship with.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, so okay.
Brooke Monaghan:So I'm trying to keep myself on track and also let this go where it wants to go, because part of what I'm hearing in this conversation is this parallel between the work that you do on content creation and marketing, the work that you do on equity and inclusion, the work that I do on leading people away from trying to find the capital A answer.
Brooke Monaghan:It's like the sigh of relief to me comes when you realize that you can stop focusing on doing enough, and you can stop focusing on doing all of the right things or going down and being like, yep, I marketed my work enough this time, or I posted enough times this week, or I'm doing the marketing the right way, when you can take your eye off of that and instead focus on how are things landing with people? What's the impact that you're having? How is this affecting people? Who are you showing up for today? What do people actually need to hear from you? How are you cutting through the noise of all of that bullshit and instead stopping people in their tracks by having something meaningful to say? That, to me, feels so much better in my body than being up against how to do social media the right way and get people's attention and keep up.
Tristan Katz:I don't know why, it's easy for me. First of all, I just want to name that. I find social media marketing to be pretty easy for me. I know that's not everybody's experience, but I think part of the reason it's easy is because I kind of get out of my own way a little. I just think, instead of thinking I've got to create this perfect thing or I've got to market this this many yes, I do come up with a loose plan for when I'm marketing something, but then I kind of throw the plan out the window and have to really go moment to moment. I don't have it in me to be on Instagram today, so this launch is not going to be what I thought it was going to be. Oh well, hopefully it works, hope I don't have to cancel the thing. By the way, all the time I have to cancel the thing. So, like you know, life happens.
Tristan Katz:But part of the reason I think it's easy for me is because I have worked so hard to try different things and in trying different things over several years, I have learned this thing, or I've noticed like this thing works, this thing doesn't, or I've been able to hear too like yes, I thought I should talk about X, Y and Z in marketing this offer, this, this product, this whatever.
Tristan Katz:But I'm hearing from clients or people right now that they're talking about this thing instead, so I'm going to speak to that thing instead because it does still feel aligned right, and I think that's. It's like holding it all really loosely, like yes, I have a plan, yes, I know I need to post this many times a week, but like I'm just going to hold it all loosely and see what comes through. And part of that is looking back and saying like, okay, if I'm marketing this particular program, what kind of content have I made over the last three years that can be repurposed to meet to talk about this program and how can I repackage it in a way that really pulls people in for this particular moment, right?
Brooke Monaghan:yeah, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan:One of the questions that I ask people, especially people who I'm just starting to work with, like in the very, very early days of working together, is I don't actually ask them actually a ton of questions to get to this which is what do you want to hold firmly and what do you want to hold loosely?
Brooke Monaghan:And what I'm hearing in this is you're holding really firmly the idea of having an impact and moving certain ideas forward and making a meaningful contribution, and then you're holding really loosely the way that you do that, or how to experiment with that on social media or otherwise, to move that forward. That's the experimental thing. But the reason that you're able to do this in a way that is like effective and also meaningful and also, like you know, the reason that you're able to do that, I think is because of the fact that, like at no point have I ever I've known you for I think like three years at this point and like literally at no point have I ever seen you put out a hollow post, because it's just like not what you do.
Tristan Katz:No, if I want to do like a filler post and by that I mean I'm like should I need to post something about this workshop? What should I say? I want to make it meaningful, I don't want to just make it, you know, empty then I'm going to pull one meaningful sentence out of something I've written in the past and that sentence goes on a canva graphic. So there's still substance, right? Yeah, and part of this is because I learned really, really early on that you can't just post the marketing, the straightforward marketing asset, like you can't just post the workshop flyer, you can't just post the podcast graphic. You have to provide value if you're going to reach people, in part because I think a lot of us are like stop trying to sell me.
Tristan Katz:Like Instagram has become like just like sell, sell, sell, pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch. Sometimes I'm on Instagram and I'm like who else is even using this app other than like businesses and entrepreneurs? You know? So how do you show that you're not just there to sell people? Because, yes, sure, you might be using Instagram for your online business, which means you need to make money, which means you need to sell things.
Tristan Katz:And I think the orientation for me isn't the selling, it's the awareness raising. It's awareness raising about the conversation I'm having and it's awareness raising about my own work, which is a part of that conversation, which is like you know, and when I approach it as awareness raising, it completely, yeah, nothing is just empty and meaningless anymore. Right, my whole, my whole account is about awareness raising on some level and to me, that is going to make a meaningful impact. And when people think, oh, I want to work with someone who knows marketing from this lens or who teaches, like they'll remember me because I've been in their space, right, in a way that isn't just about buy from me, buy from me, buy from me, buy from me. That is not going to work.
Brooke Monaghan:Right, right, yeah, and the way that you have. You know, I think back on, and I say I think back on because I no longer think about this shit anymore. But you know the marketing basics that you learn when you're like just starting out, and it's like people need to know, like and trust you. [Tristan Katz] know like and trust I fucking hate that shit.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, it does. If you aim for kno like and trust, it's gross. [And I do think it's true that people need to know, like and trust you, but the way that people actually know, like and trust you, ristan, is because of the fact that you have approached things not by trying to get people to know, like and trust you, but by doing meaningful work.
Tristan Katz:Yeah, that's the thing is like and I know I feel like you and I have talked about this before on a previous episode that we recorded.
Tristan Katz:[Let's sagain. it again yeah, I really think that the no-light and trust factor, which is like marketing 101, is gross. We've said that like four times now and it's also. It exists as a marketing 101 teaching for a reason. Yes, I dthink we need to cultivate I'm putting this in quotes the no-light and trust factor. I just want to see us do it from a place of genuineness and authenticity and like meaningfulness, and not from manipulation or performance. And I want to be clear I think a lot of what we do, if not all of what we do on social media on some level is a performance. But are we doing it for performance sake or are we doing it because it's genuine? And then that mitigates the grossness of the performance.
Tristan Katz:But I'm thinking of some of these like larger IG growth people with like huge accounts, who talk about no-ligh and trust and who are very much performing, and you can feel it Like I feel like I don't know this person but like I think I'm supposed to like and trust them because, look, they've got the receipts to show that, like their clients make more X, Y and Z right? Well, I'm not, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan:I'm no Or they have figured something out that I haven't figured out and they're making it look like things are really easy for them, or they've kind of found the like magical key to whatever. So I need access to them so that I can get it too, because this sucks.
Tristan Katz:Yeah, but let me tell you because I'm still I've got like two people in my head right now who I'm still pedestalizing them, thinking they figured it out this online business thing and this Instagram thing. And I know now because I paid a small amount of money to get into one of these spaces with them to see what it was like and the money was worth it for me to know, oh, this is gross. It's like, yes, I can look at this person's marketing, their sale pages, their email, the sequence, the whole thing and be like, wow, they really got their shit figured out. I should look at this person, I should study with this person, I should figure out what this person is doing. But then I paid 90 bucks to get into one of their challenges and it was. It was gross. It felt totally gross. Am I going to use some of the stuff they offered in the challenge? Maybe, but I mostly just paid to be like what's actually happening there and in that r.
Brooke Monaghan:Confirmation. Yea Yeah, it's kind of like how I paid a lot more than that to get a leadership coaching certification, which I put off for so long because I was like these coaching certification programs feel so gross to me. But what if there is something in there that I don't know I'm being irresponsible because I don't know? Okay, you know what. I have the money, I'm just going to do it. I did it. I came out the other side and I was like you know what? It actually is kind of cool to have some of these PDFs to rely on.
Tristan Katz:ESometimes you just pay to get the PDF.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, I know, oh, I actually do have a tool that I paid an exorbitant amount of money for the rights to use, but also the confidence walking away of being like, oh my gosh, I can trust myself because I actually already knew all of this stuff and actually there's some things that they say to do that I know from my experience, I'm never doing. Yes, I trust myself more because of that, yeah. So, yes, I have a question about sustainable social media, because this is something that you talke about a lot and the repurposing is definitely something that allows it to feel more sustainable, and I think people talk a lot about repurposing as like kind of this golden ticket to s sustainable social media. I'm curious for you One of the things that I find makes the way that people market themselves unsustainable is that sometimes people will do things simply because of the fact that they've been promised it would work, and put themselves through doing it not because it feels good for them, not because they understand that it's going to make an impact, not because it's tied to some deeper purpose, but because that's what they were told they needed to do.
Brooke Monaghan:And then, when it doesn't work, it's incredibly discouraging because they just put themselves through all of that which was supposed to promise something and which promised something and they don't get it. And then it's like well, what the fuck? Part of what I'm hearing from you is that, even if, in the way that you market and in the way that you teach marketing and content marketing, even if the content doesn't sell a thing or you don't hit a goal that you wanted to hit, if it's tied to some deeper reason, if it's tied to making an impact, then it doesn't feel as draining when it doesn't work, because you still put something out there that was meaningful for you to say.
Tristan Katz:Yes, and so I think and this is something I'm trying to speak to more of and I'm not quite sure how to do it yet but just to say that it's not like I put out a post and then the registrations just come flying in.
Tristan Katz:You know what I mean. It's not even a one-to-one. It's not like one post, one sign up. It's some weird other alternative, like you can't map it type equation, right. And so to me putting out the post to move registrations forward for a particular training or something it's like yes, I am putting out the post because I'm in this marketing timeline and I need to draw awareness to this particular training, but I'm also just putting out the post for it to exist on my profile or for it to exist in the world, and to me, if it's more meaningful or valuable, then it's going to get shared more right or saved more, and that's especially the sharing could lead to more registrations or awareness of my work. But I'm not waiting. I did have a time and there was a time, I actually think maybe in early COVID in 2020 where you put it, I put out a post and the registrations would come in. I remember I released an e-book in 2020 and people bought it like immediately right.
Tristan Katz:Yeah, we're at a different point now in 2023. And I don't see it being like it was in early 2020 with, like this, like thirst for online programs or thirst for online resources. We're at a different place we're, like, oversaturated and tired and we want to be in person as much as we can those of us who have access to do so and so it's just the market has changed, right, like the way we engage with stuff has changed, and to me, that means that actually it's my job, like literally to put even more value into what I share and to make what I share actually mean something. Did that speak to what you were saying? Because I feel like I got off topic a little. Okay.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, totally did. And it's something that I think is like like for people who are listening if you've been doing what you're doing for a long time and you feel like the things that you used to do, that used to work, aren't working anymore, that is that. That is yeah, that's the way that it is right now.
Tristan Katz:Yeah, and this is part of why I started like looking for the answer again. Right, yeah, because I was like something's not working. It's not just that I've taken an exorbitant amount of time off this year. It's like, for example, I'm teaching a sustainable social media training. Three years ago, maybe even two years ago, you put those three words on a graphic and put that on Instagram and I bet people would have signed up immediately. Right? Sustainable social media? Yes, and I thought that that would be the case right now.
Tristan Katz:Doesn't everybody want to talk about sustainable social media? Aren't people going to be clamoring to get into this program? I'm not seeing that. It doesn't mean it's not needed. I'm just I have to check myself. It's a different landscape, it's a different time.
Tristan Katz:So that was part of why you and I got on the call, too was because I was like what am I missing? Like am I not leveraging my relationships or my existing network? Like should I be marketing things in this way? People are like maybe I need to be on YouTube. Like the moment has changed, and so a lot of us are still trying to figure out, like, how do we make it work in this new moment when, to your point, what worked three years ago is no longer working, and I don't think it's as simple as well, Instagram is done or like that doesn't work anymore. Or you know, build a sales funnel and work on your newsletter list, like I think it's some mysterious combination of both, like trying lots of different things and holding it all really loosely. Yeah, I'm also just thinking about like you know.
Tristan Katz:Part of what I was thinking was you know, I don't have like a sales funnel set up, and sometimes I subscribe to people's newsletters just to see how they use their newsletter marketing and I can see, for example, I'm watching somebody promote a particular like intensive, and I got an email almost every day for a whole week from this person as they were promoting it, and I was like, huh, this is working for them, though. This is a tried and true model. They keep doing it. They keep saying they keep these emails are like scheduled way in advance, like I can, I can tell you know, and so I'm like they figured it out. They figured out to sell this intensive, they need to send this many emails and they need to post this many times, or whatever the hell it is. I don't know. It's working and I don't want to spend time on sales funnels.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah. Well. Also, though, what's so interesting about that is that that kind of gets into this thing that happens in the business development space, where the perception is, oh, this is working and so I should trust this person. But how much of it is working just because you have the perception that things are working?
Tristan Katz:And this is the other thing that I loved and I know I'm being a little mysterious because I'm talking about online coaches and not naming anybody. Happy to name everybody that I'm thinking of, but the one person I'm thinking of right now the perception is it's working. And then they posted in their stories a photo of the Zoom room after the intensive started, and so I could see how many people showed up live to that first session, and it was a small group. So it wasn't like the Zoom room was 50 people, 25 people. It wasn't a full Zoom screen and so is it working?
Tristan Katz:And then immediately in my head I was like, ok, so they sold let's just say this many spots, and I know the rate for the program. How much money is that? Ok, if they do that two times a year. I was like, oh, it is working, but it's not working in the way my brain says. They probably have so many people in that program. My brain says, oh, and this email funnel that they've created, the sales funnel that they've created, they're nailing it, they're knocking it out of the park. They've got 10 people in the Zoom room.
Brooke Monaghan:But also. Ok, so let's say there were 50 people in the Zoom room. If the additional 40 that we're imagining joins because they had a perception that things were working, that's not going to replicate to other types of businesses. It might replicate if you are selling stuff about marketing or if you're selling stuff about business development and you're trying to build trust, as I am a person, but if you are a health coach, if you're a yoga teacher, if you're a, that's not going to replicate because no one gives a fuck about your sales funnel.
Tristan Katz:No.
Brooke Monaghan:So if you're there to learn a skill that you can take and apply to a different type of business, it's just something to be really aware of and it's entirely possible that it could be working for them, and it's working for a reason that is not going to replicate in your business.
Tristan Katz:Yeah, and the other thing I want to say on this topic is that my brain wants to say working means this many numbers, this many people, this much money. And I would like to challenge that thought process. Because to me, three people might be it's working. And I'm thinking a conversation that I've had with somebody in your spaces who said to me well, I've only gotten five students in this program that I've been marketing for a really long time and I was like that's a success, like five people consistently, they're coming consistently. That is completely a success. Is it the goal financially that you had for the program? No, but it's a different kind of success, because we're not like it's not going to be like this is the program.
Tristan Katz:This is the answer again, I think and this is one thing that I'm constantly learning through you is how do we diversify our offerings? Not because it's the right thing to do, but because, or rather it's what you should do as a business owner. It's like how do we diversify our offerings to make our work accessible for people with where they're it's more oriented towards, like I want to serve you and I know you've got this much money and you've got this much money and you want somebody to hold your hand, but you want somebody to do it for you, and so I'm going to create all these different pathways to make my work accessible, so more people can access it.
Brooke Monaghan:Right, yeah, yeah, I'm realizing. I'm remembering the thing that I was going to say before, when we were talking about how things used to work in 2020 that don't work now. The story that I always tell myself just in case anyone who's listening tells themselves the story, too is that it's because of my inner landscape at the time. I was so motivated and I was so into my work and I was so fiery and was just writing in a way that was so resonant, and I need to figure out how to get myself there again and not just be who I am now.
Tristan Katz:Right, because now you're not motivated or engaged in your work, or fiery, no fire. I see you having zero fire.
Brooke Monaghan:Thanks, thanks for the reminder. Yeah, and I know that people tell themselves that, like a lot of it, it's like because of the fucking prosperity gospel and shit about if you just figure out how to align yourself in such a way, then things are just going to click for you. And so if things aren't working now, but they were working before and well, of course things felt good when they were working, but it's so easy to tell yourself the story that it was because you got yourself to feel a certain way that things started working, and then it's just yeah.
Tristan Katz:I mean, I've got the. It was working in 2020 and 2021 because I was overworking. [Brooke Monaghan] I know [Tristan Katz] Right, so like that wasn't working, though, right? Like sure, the business was working, but I was overworking, so that wasn't working.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, yeah. So you are going to be teaching workshop on this topic. It is going to be free in Fruition, so anybody who wants to come can come, and you're going to be going deeper into this and providing support for people who want to start approaching their content in this way, and so this is everybody's invitation. Is there anything more that you want to say about that, or anything that we didn't talk about that you want to leave people with?
Tristan Katz:I'll just say that I think what I'm going to plan for that workshop is offering a taste of this framework that I am developing, that Brooke has kind of literally coached me into understanding that I'm developing it and I want to bring in a glimpse of the framework and make it accessible for folks to play with and get some feedback on it too, because I also really want to teach it so that it meets people where they're at Like for people who are natural writers, for people who are not natural writers, because, unfortunately, that's a skill you need in content marketing. Anyways, this is what I want to bring into that space, and I've never taught it before. I've taught again, I've taught behind it, I've taught around it, but I've never taught an actual. This is the outline, these are the actions, this is what it could look like and this is how it'll serve you. And so, yeah, people will get a glimpse of it in that.
Brooke Monaghan:Yeah, and what I'm hearing in that too, which I think is really exciting, is that if you've been to workshops that are focused on here's how to create content, effective content and you felt like you were left with a framework that didn't actually meet you, there's space for discussion around that and for flexibility. It's not a here's what you're supposed to do, good luck if you can't figure it out, then that's not going to be that.
Tristan Katz:No, because I'm thinking about myself. Writing comes easily to me, so I can write the five core pieces of content that then get repurposed throughout the year. I can do that probably in a weekend, but I'm thinking about folks who writing doesn't come easily, for whatever reason. Are you dyslexic? Is writing not your jam? How do I serve you? I want to serve you too, and so I am. It's cooking in my brain, but I think I can find a way in to helping folks who don't want to write still create something meaningful.
Brooke Monaghan:You got a glimpse of what it's like to talk to a dyslexic person about Instagram feeds when I was at your house.
Tristan Katz:This is what I mean. I do think about you and how you really your experience on the app now that I understand it better, yeah.
Brooke Monaghan:The slide starts with this and I was like but what does it look like? What size is the font? And you're like I think it's like a 12 point font and I was like, no, no, no, I need to know, like, what it looks like so I can find out the point.
Tristan Katz:Like why do you need to know the font size? How does that help your dyslexia? I don't understand that's so good.
Brooke Monaghan:Oh, Tristan, this is so fun. [Tristan Katz] Likewise. [Brooke Monaghan] Okay, I'm going to stop recording unless you have anything else you want to talk about.