Finding Wonder: The Urgency of Dark Skies

When was the last time you really saw the stars? Not just a few twinkles—but the Milky Way stretching overhead like a cosmic river?

Caroline “Siffy” Torkildson—geographer, explorer, and author of the new book “My Home Is Where My Trunk Is”—has spent a lifetime chasing eclipses, hiking sacred landscapes, and advocating for the night sky.

We dig into light pollution—the silent invader erasing our stars, disrupting wildlife, and throwing off our circadian rhythms. But we also explore solutions: from Dark Sky Parks to smarter lighting, from rural stargazing to astrotourism that restores our connection to night.

This is more than a conversation about stars. It’s a call to look up, to slow down, and to remember we belong to something vast and mysterious. We don’t look to the night sky for answers—we look to feel part of something greater than ourselves.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Dark Skies Crisis
• 5:28 Understanding Light Pollution
• 14:35 Chasing Eclipses and Wonder
• 17:47 Health Impacts of Light Pollution
• 22:36 Annie Peck: Mountaineer and Inspiration
• 25:56 Dark Sky Tourism and Conservation
• 30:26 Global Efforts Against Light Pollution
• 34:30 Closing Thoughts on Preserving Darkness

Transcript

Pat:

Fill To Capacity where heart grit and irreverent humor collide. A podcast for people to stubborn to quit, and too creative not to make a difference.

Pat:

Hi, I am Pat Benincasa and welcome to Fill To Capacity, Episode # 106, "Finding Wonder: The Urgency of Dark Skies." When was the last time you really saw the stars? Not just a handful, but the full sweep of the Milky Way blazing across the sky like it was meant to? If you haven't, you're not alone. Light pollution is erasing the night sky for nearly 99% of us. And along with it, something deeper is slipping away our sense of awe, our rhythms, even our sleep. But here's the surprise, there are places called Dark Sky Parks, where the night still shows up in full glory places where the Milky Way spills across the sky so brightly. It'll stop you in your tracks today, unfiltered capacity. Meet Caroline Siffy, Torkildson geographer explorer, and author of the upcoming book, "My Home Is Where My Trunk Is: Traveling toward my dreams with Annie Peck," A story of grit, world wanderings and one extraordinary woman's legacy.

Pat:

She also wrote her first book, A Wild Hare: Finding the life I imagined." I Read that, and if you've not traveled around the world climbing mountains, you better read it, because it's like you're right there. So Caroline is also a fierce advocate with Starry Skies North, a nonprofit working across the upper Midwest and Canada to protect our night skies through education, science, and smart lighting policy. So from chasing eclipses across continents to hiking sacred landscapes, Caroline's story is part adventure, part mission and all heart. So stay tuned, because this isn't just a conversation about stars, it's about wonder urgency and why saving the dark matters more than you think. So ready to look up. Let's go. Welcome Caroline. So nice to have you here.

Caroline:

Thank you, Pat. I'm happy to be here.

Pat:

Caroline, what's the first memory you have of looking up at the night sky and how did that moment shape who you are today?

Caroline:

Hmm, interesting question. Well, I'll, I'll just start with when I was a, a young girl, my father had a naturalist library, and in that library, even before I could read, I would pull out and look at pictures and the golden Guide to the Stars just intrigued me so much. And so I just sat and looked at those pictures. And then I was living in Forest Lake is where I'm from Minnesota, and at the time it was more of a, a rural community than it is now. And so I would go outside and look at the stars and my dad had a little, um, spotting scope. So, um, when I, you know, it was a little older, then I would set that up and look with that. And then I used his oculars. And then eventually my parents bought me a telescope when I was 12, but I just was just so fascinated.

Caroline:

And then I would just go out and look at the stars and just be so, and then you could see the Milky Way. And also my, um, family has had a cabin was my great uncle's since I was a child too. So we would go up to the cabin up in Northern Minnesota and then I would even see the stars even more spectacular. And there I could see the Northern Lights. So I can't remember when la the first time I saw the Milky Way and the Northern Lights, it was just kinda like a given. It wasn't like today where it's spectacular. It was just normal.

Pat:

That's quite a way to grow up. Well then tell us what is light pollution and what is the big misconception about it and why should people even care?

Caroline:

So I think it's, it's a majorly neglected environmental issue as you kind of mentioned. And part of the reason I think is because people don't notice it so much. Like if you saw maybe water pollution, you say, oh my gosh, this is just terrible. But a lot of people today don't even go outside at night, so they don't even realize what's happening. And I also think people just don't know. A lot of times when I'm at events, people have not even thought of this, that it could be pollution. And I think also a huge part of it is fear of the dark and crime. And some people just don't wanna be outside and they think light is a good thing to help protect. They don't think about what they're losing up in the sky. And the interesting thing, even though it's, it's important issue that's people don't think about, it's one of the easiest ones to fix. All you have to do is turn off your light. The problem is it's our social views on light, which is the difficult part to change.

Pat:

Now you've chased eclipses across the world, what do you think we're really chasing when we go after these rare cosmic events? What do you think it is?

Caroline:

I think it's our connection to the universe and also awe to just to look up and see the dark skies. Like even as a child or now when you get out, when you see those real dark skies where you can see the Milky Way and thousands of stars, you really feel this sense of wonder like, why are we here? Makes us seem small. And an eclipse is sort of like all that in like, like a minute.

Pat:

Yeah.

Caroline:

It's just like wonder of nature that doesn't happen every day. So that also I think really brings the, um, sense of awe and wonder and our connection to the universe. And we're losing that now so much people have to go find it.

Pat:

So to speak. Yes. Now you've lived near the boundary waters, that vast wild canoe country along the Minnesota Canadian border, one of the last places in the US with truly dark skies. Now over the years, you've seen that darkness fade as you were just talking about. How has that loss personally hit you? Not just being an astronomer, but as a human being?

Caroline:

As a human being? That loss is affecting our health too. Not just our whole psyche of dreaming and, and thinking of what's out there. And that part of the, what we're losing is the artistic and the creativity part of life too. Like I can go in as starry skies. That could never happen today unless somebody actually went out to seek it. It wouldn't be, you know, he was in a small town. So we're losing that, but it's affecting our health. All this light that we're sitting in cities is really affecting our health more than people realize. Like our melatonin levels and our circadian rhythms get messed up, especially with this blue light in that sense, it's also affecting our health. And of course wildlife's health 'cause wildlife like us, even trees have circadian rhythms. And so everything has been affected.

Pat:

And what is circadian rhythms?

Caroline:

Well, that's like your night day change. So light pollution was basically created when lights were created and the whole world is getting brighter and brighter. And so maybe 180 years ago, something like that, when it really started to take off. And then we get further into the os when this blue light starts to become more popular. So this is all affecting us. And our bodies weren't made for this. They were made for dark. So the dark cycle, the light cycle of the days, that was like our normal thing for us for animals, for trees. But now with all this light that's, it's disrupting all that. And so, and, and when you disrupt your sleep, that causes all sorts of problems like cancer, obesity, everything. So this lack of sleep or modification in sleep is making it harder for us to be healthy and animals and trees and you know, the whole natural world. Yeah.

Pat:

Now this morning I came across a story that really caught my attention in Church Point Nova Scotia, Universite Sainte-Anne needed outdoor lighting for evening use, but instead of flooding the night with harsh glare, they made a bold choice. They followed Dark Sky International's, strict science-backed standards, and became the first site outside the United States to be certified for outdoor sports lighting. And that means less sky glow protection for migratory birds, sort of things that you were talking about. Energy savings and still safe, usable spaces for the community. It's proof that we don't have to choose between lighting and darkness. So Caroline, do you think more schools, parks and communities are ready to follow this kind of lead? And what would it take to make that shift happen?

Caroline:

It's starting to change a little bit. There are places like Flagstaff, Arizona is the one city in the United States that has really dark sky standards. And they started back in, um, 1958 because of the observatory there. But now there's dark sky cities also, and there's some in Texas and some in, um, Colorado that I was just reading about. And so they have made their lighting so that it's not this bright blue shining up everywhere. A huge problem with the, the LEDs when they came out, they just created them in this really blue harsh light. They use Kelvin or CCT they call it, which is how you measure the, the blueness or the redness of a light. And so when they first came out and it's, it's still a huge problem, they used really high numbers like around 5,000 kelvin. And really the old incandescent were 1800 Kelvin.

Caroline:

So that's a huge change into blue lighting. And now if you see in the store, you'll see soft light, but you really have to look at the light bulbs and it'll, and on the back it'll show you how much Kelvin it is. And they sometimes are 3000, which they've now shown are too high. But oftentimes it says 2,700 and that's kind of the standard. Now there's some that are available for 2200, which is even better. And those lower numbers make 'em kind of redder. And if wavelengths of light, the blue are squished really together close the wave and where the red is more casual. And so that close together just it, it electrifies you, it wakes you up. This blue light is really being becoming a huge problem in our society. But 'cause it's subtly been changing over time, I think people don't notice it so much.

Caroline:

And we're getting more used to lights. I read some more, 40% of people they don't even see dark anymore. And that in the US they never even go out in order to see dark. So we're losing that sense of the, the lighting. But I do get a lot of people that come up to my tables when I'm tabling about complaining about stadium lighting and other kinds of lighting. And we're not here to say no lighting. We're better lighting. Once you show people the difference, they usually will say, oh yeah, I totally like that better. But it's just the challenge of getting that information out there into the right people. Sometimes it's hard to figure out who's doing the building Yeah. Who's doing the lighting on the building. And so that's always a bit of a challenge too. And oftentimes you don't know until it's done and then you have to go back and retrofit to the right proper colors. You don't need to have the sports lighting on all night. Which I guess some of these sports lighting places are starting to do. So yeah, the new designation with Dark Sky International for sports lighting, that's awesome. And there's a lot of stuff on their website too where you can find good lighting for different kinds of outdoor things that you're doing.

Pat:

I'll be sure to put dark Skies International in the show notes. Is that also similar to computers having these blue light shields that you're supposed to slip on to your computer to cut down on that type of lighting? Is that the same thing?

Caroline:

That's different. The filter things are different. I mean there are some though that you can download that makes your, um, screen more um, not so blue. So I guess that's kind of similar in a way. Yeah.

Caroline:

But you make a good point though. Indoors at night we don't wanna have a lot of blue lighting around us because that's gonna affect our sleep too.

Pat:

So would that be like having your iPhone next to your, your bed? And when you're looking that light flickers. Yeah, they tell people turn off your phones at night.

Caroline:

I put it in the other room. I drive my husband crazy, 'cause any hotel or anything we go into, I'm putting tape over all the little lights that are in the room that drive me crazy.

Pat:

Okay. I'm gonna shift gears here and go in a different direction. I want to preface it by telling listeners about Annie Peck, mountaineer, scholar, Suffragist in the 1890s. She scaled the Matterhorn in pants. Yes. Listeners, I said pants. And later she planted a votes for Women banner on a Peruvian peak at age 58. She didn't just climb mountains, she challenged everything women were told they couldn't do. Caroline, you've walked in the footsteps of Annie Peck, a boundary breaking explorer. What drove you to write about her and how has her story fueled your own

Caroline:

Interesting question. So originally I was working on my master's degree at um, Humboldt State in Northern California. And I needed to find a topic and I was really interested in women explorers. So I read a bunch of books about explorers and she really stood out to me because she was doing this all on her own without lots of money, without a husband. And so that impressed me. And so I, I did my thesis over 20 years ago and then when I reconnected with my husband that I'm married to now, he's like, oh, that'd be kind of fun. Follow her footsteps. And I thought, yeah, what a great idea. And then I was living in Europe at the time, so I knew she'd spent time in Greece. And of course she climbed, um, studying at the American School of Classical Studies there in Athens. And then she also climbed the Matterhorn.

Caroline:

So I thought, well I have to go check out these two places. I mean, I can climb simpler mountains, that was a bit too technical for me. But I went up as high as I could go on the mountain and followed where she went. And then I saw a hotel went in there and where she had stayed and then I went to Peru was very important in her life. Well actually I did see her grave site and she's from Providence, Rhode Island. So I went there right after I did my thesis. Actually she lived a lot of time in New York City, so I spent a little time there trying to track down her last place. She lived in Peru. She was trying to climb the highest peak in the world. She was very ambitious. She had funding to do this in South America. So she decided to go there.

Caroline:

And so she finally set her sights on Mount Huascarán, which at the time had not been climbed yet because she was hoping it was the tallest peak. And she finally did climb that mountain and she also climbed, um, some smaller mountains there too, like El Misti. So that was my challenge was to climb that. 'cause she had climbed it. It was around 19,000 feet and more were you not having to do rock climbing. So following in all these different places she went, it was interesting that a lot of things have not changed in those places. Like I, I think the scenery and the people, I mean I'm sure there's some changes, but I think a lot of it was a lot of places were still off the beaten path. Yeah. And in Athens, the city of course has gotten bigger. So following in those footsteps, it just makes me realize what she was doing at the time and how difficult it was.

Caroline:

And today things are still a bit difficult. So she's always inspiring me in general. Never give up. You can keep doing things. And she never gave up. I mean it took her, I think it was five or six times to get to the top of was on, but she didn't give up. She just kept trying and she was always kind of reinventing herself. She also started out as a professor, but she didn't like it. She wasn't make enough money so she quit and then she decided to go lecturing instead. So she still inspires me and women and anybody just really to keep trying and never give up.

Pat:

Yeah. It's funny how people in history truly speak to us. There are certain people that really, really speak to us. And it's like we can't learn enough about them. I feel that way about Joan of Arc. I think I have 20, 30, 40 books about Joan of Arc and that every time I read one it's like, like I'm learning something new.

Caroline:

Well I hope eventually there'll be 20 or 30 books about Annie Peck.

Pat:

There you go. I wanna go back to Dark Skies a bit. Astrotourism travel centered around stargazing and experiencing dark skies is booming. But as more people seek out these breathtaking nights scapes, how do we balance the desire to share these beautiful dark places with the need to protect them from overuse?

Caroline:

Oh sure. I mean that's the problem with all sort of nature kind of things. So the reason alluded to earlier we have astro tourism is because you can't just go out in your backyard anymore and look up and see the stars. However, people that are involved in astro tourism, I'm hoping when they go back to their communities though, they will try to do something there too, 'cause Flagstaff, you can see the Milky Way and it's a medium sized city because they have good lighting. As an aside, there's things you can do at home. Like, first off, do you even need an outdoor light? And then you wanna have a shield over it. Timers have the warmer colors and the lowest level needed. You don't need to have these super bright blue lights that shine for miles. So those are things you can do when you get back.

Caroline:

So I think it's important when people are going looking for dark skies that they bring those ideas back home too. And I think as long as people are respectful, when they're out looking at the dark skies, I know campgrounds is a big issue because a lot of campgrounds, people are bringing their lights from home and campgrounds are just shining up bright and light. And you think of this with noise, you're not gonna make tons of noise 'cause you're gonna get in trouble. Well light, nobody gets in trouble right now 'cause there's not enough regulations. I mean we're slowly trying to change that. But really having bright lights shining at you in your window is just, if you're trying to camp, is just as bad as a loud neighbor next door. So trying to educate people just to be respectful, turn off their lights like at 10 o'clock, you know, that sort of thing in campgrounds.

Caroline:

And, and if you're gonna drive in somewhere where it's already dark, turn your lights down before you arrive so you don't shine. Like if there's people out looking through telescopes or whatever. One thing about the, the dark sky sanctuary we have with the boundary waters is you don't have to go into the boundary waters. You can be some of the areas around the boundary waters and you can still see darker skies. It's still a pretty dark area. So, you know, I think the more people can disperse around a bit too. The UP of Michigan is another good area. So there's a lot of areas you can go in the north where it's still dark. At least we're lucky in our state.

Pat:

Well, I'm from Michigan, the upper Peninsula is spectacular. It's not as populated as the Lower Peninsula. So there are places to go to see that.

Caroline:

Yeah. There's a Dark Sky Lodge up there too

Pat:

On the Keweenaw Peninsula. Now you've lived, traveled and worked in so many places, Madagascar, the Himalayas, Europe, Nepal. What have these sacred landscapes taught you about the human connection tonight?

Caroline:

Yeah, a lot of these places that have gone, the, the ones that are more rural, it's really easy to connect there because you can see the night and the people that live there can see the night. So they still have that connection. So one thing I really always appreciate about these rural places, like say in in Morocco or in Nepal, is you can still see the beautiful skies and the people still have that connection where we're starting to lose that. Even rural areas here. I mean I've driven through Wisconsin at night and Bright Farm lights everywhere. So you know, maybe they can still see the Milky Way, I don't know. But over there they don't have that. And so you can really have a better connection with the dark. And then in cities I like to visit observatories and places that are significant for astronomy.

Caroline:

And in those places I really feel the, the history of the connection with the night sky. Because if you think about it, a thousand years ago when people didn't know what was up there, it was all a mystery. So they made all these different myths and things. And only recently have we really realized what's up there and even know, we know what's there. It's still amazing and there's still so much mystery when you look up in the sky. And so a lot of the observatories you learn about like kind of the history of some of the research that, or things that were discovered. And so there's a connection there too.

Pat:

I think really the underlying thing that that you're saying is that to have these dark sky areas, these parks allows us to slow down, just slow down. And I'm sure listeners saying, yeah, well you don't have three kids and you don't have to drive them and you don't have to go to work and you don't. I understand that and I say that respectfully. And so the idea that if we had areas where we could just connect with that dark sky, it's really reconnecting with that sense of rhythm, the way we connect with the seasons. You know, in Minnesota that one week of spring is a delight. You know, when we have that and we are so oriented towards the changing seasons. And it's a wonderful reminder, the promise of spring, no matter how rough the winter, there are life cycles that are, they're good for the heart. So when you're talking about having a chance just to maybe lower the lights or have them on a timer, you're really saying, hey, maybe we could just slow down for a little bit. Take in that night sky.

Caroline:

Exactly. And you get maybe a little more used to being in the dark. 'cause I think a lot of people are just afraid of being in the dark. And that's another good thing about astrotourism. 'cause you can get people out, out into the dark and discover something that might be new to them and then maybe help them feel a little more comfortable being in a dark landscape.

Pat:

If you could share one truly dark sky with young people today, where would you take them and what would you hope they'd take away from the experience?

Caroline:

The darkest sky I've ever seen was in Nevada. But because I live in Minnesota, I would probably say to the northern Minnesota anywhere you get a couple hours north of Duluth and you get kind of more away in to the northeast away from the lights of the range and international falls. So the boundary waters area is really nice. But yeah, the Southwest deserts are really a good place too because it's still pretty dark over there. And even up in Montana and some of the parks up that way as well. So any of those kind of places. And that was the second question.

Pat:

What would you hope they'd take away from that experience?

Caroline:

I would hope that they could see that wow, they're, they're so insignificant in the whole universe and have this sense of awe and wonderment. 'cause you don't get that when you just see lights in a city. I always think of that S I'm a huge Ursula Le Guin fan. So I think of that one, I can't remember which book it was, (“The Birthday of the World”) but it's always cloudy on the planet so the people never even realize they're stars. And I'm feeling like that's kind of like how we're getting here. And so just to get out of that light pollution, um, world and just see this mystery of the stars and this connection and you know, we all have this connection to the dark skies and it's in our genes. And so it's kinda like, uh, people when you go to the ocean or you have a campfire, it's one of these things everybody should be able to have access to and makes you connect more to humanity.

Pat:

Now I would assume that if you were near the top of a mountain, that'd be a better place to scope out the night sky. What are some of the key places like you mentioned desert.

Caroline:

Definitely deserts because the aeros so dry so that helps keep out the humidity, which makes it a little more, um, hazier. And so those are good places. Yeah. Mountaintops are always good. I have not been there yet, but I would love to go to Chile to see the observatories there. They're really high in the mountains and they're very dark there and they's a big observatory and to get up high up on the mountain too, you're having the altitude. Altitude is good. So yeah, mountains, deserts and here getting up where you can have a lake, you can look across the lake and then, or where you have a more of a open area here in the Midwest because you know, we got a lot of forests where it's sometimes hard to see, but Yeah.

Pat:

And prairie.

Caroline:

And Prairie, yes.

Pat:

Prairie skies.

Caroline:

Yeah. So I've seen some beautiful skies down in South Dakota too. So yeah.

Pat:

If people as they're listening to this are curious like, what's going on in my city? How do I find out about light pollution where I live? What would they have to do?

Caroline:

You can go to um, Dark Sky International website and they have a lot of information on there and they have d different chapters for all the areas of the, the world. Actually, if there's a chapter, so like I'm in Starry Skies North, which is the Minnesota chapter and we kind of are growing a little bit and help out the neighboring states as well. But if you go on on their website, you can look it up and it'll say, and then you can reach out to the email that's there and then find out that way. Or you can just maybe Google your city and something might come up too dark skies or light pollution or

Pat:

Now when we talk about light pollution and cities, I'm thinking New York, Detroit, Chicago, Portland, major cities, Boston. How do you negotiate that with these major cities and light pollution?

Caroline:

Yeah, it's not easy, but there's a, um, one of the advocates in Philadelphia has been working with the Philadelphia Police Department and um, city people. And so they're, they're actually starting to change their ways in Philadelphia. So lighting is becoming better. And then there was another advocate in Chicago who lived on a street that was really bright. So he informed his neighbors by putting little brochures on their steps and eventually they had good lighting. And so I think simple things you can do. Of course you can talk to representatives and your local um, commissioners or whoever's in charge too. Yeah, there are some lighting ordinances throughout the world, but we don't have that many. And the ones that we do have, they're not necessarily enforced but like France and Mexico are both working a little more on this too, trying to have better national light policy.

Pat:

Actually I was gonna ask you, what countries are on the vanguard of doing this?

Caroline:

Spain's doing a pretty good job too. They're pretty involved with dark skies, Australia, New Zealand, and of course Australia's got a lot of dark skies, but they're still concerned about losing what they have and 'cause they're everywhere's getting brighter and then you may not think about it, but the oceans are getting brighter too because a lot of these big factory ships have super bright lights. And I live in Duluth and I see the ships coming in and just sitting out there waiting for their shipment. Super bright blue lights shining everywhere. I mean you can see 'em for miles, their whole area that really needs to be worked on.

Pat:

What does that do for ocean life and sea, and lake life ?

Caroline:

It's not good for fish, for example. Salmon will avoid areas where there are lights and so they might not be able to go to a spawning area because of lighting. There's doing more and more studies learning about how light is affecting fish. And if you think about it, some fish are attracted to the lights that shine into the ocean just like insects are attracted and birds are attracted to lights, which is part of the reason why so many of them have been dying from light pollution. So yeah, it affects all our environments.

Pat:

It's really almost a wake up call to really ponder the question. We live with nature. We're not the only show here. So whatever we do has repercussions for wildlife, the fish, everything. And to come back to light and light pollution. I can imagine that not many people have thought about that.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Pat:

You know, it's not something that is talked about a lot. And as you said, if you look at the water you can tell water pollution Immediately. But this seems to be a little more challenging in terms of educating people. And letting them know, like what you just said, it affects everything around us.

Caroline:

Yeah. There was one study that was showing how some of the birds that live in cities, their eyes are shrinking because the, the lights are so bright. And then there's been another study that shows how the leaves on trees in cities are thickening to protect themselves from the light and even like effects on plants. So they have a longer season so there's more pollen in the air. So that affects humans because of allergies. So you have a longer season of allergies. There's a lot of things that we're not necessarily seeing. They're more subtle I guess, but they're happening. I mean they've done studies on, if you go to Dark Sky International every year there's a new update on all the latest studies and more and more research is coming out. How the light is really affecting us

Pat:

On a personal level. In the winter months I do an indoor garden getting ready for spring and I have grow lights and all the grow lights say, do not leave on 24/7 . Allow the plants to breathe and grow, turn off the grow lights. So they build into them the rhythm. And for people using them to understand it's just like as if the sun was coming up, coming down. As opposed to I'll leave it on all night. And boy those plants will really take off.

Caroline:

Exactly.

Pat:

That's not the way to do it.

Caroline:

No, no. And then I, I saw one article talking about soybeans, how the light was shining in one spot on the soybean field. So those soybeans never created the bean because they, they never thought fall was coming 'cause they had this light on them all the time.

Pat:

Very interesting. So Caroline, where can folks find your book? Tell us about it and where can they find it?

Caroline:

Sure. So my book is called, I think you mentioned it before, "My Home Is Where My Trunk Is." It's about Annie Peck. So it's coming out this coming week and it'll be on Amazon. And it's about me following the footsteps of Annie Smith Peck who was an adventurer back in the early 1900's.

Pat:

And then, then you had a, first book, "A Wild Hare."

Caroline:

Oh yeah. On Amazon too.

Pat:

Okay. So folks can find those books on Amazon. Okay. Well, talking with you Caroline reminds me that protecting the dark isn't just about seeing stars, it's about seeing ourselves in something vast, beautiful and shared in a world that lit up 24/7, Dark Sky Parks offer something rare, and you say it so beautifully: Wonder, stillness and the kind of clarity that we didn't even know we were missing. So after listening to you, maybe it's time we look up at the stars, not for answers, but to feel part of something bigger.

Caroline:

Yeah. You said it well.

Pat:

Well thank you for coming on Fill To Capacity. It was wonderful to learn about Dark Park Skies and your work and your books. Thank you so much for coming on

Caroline:

And thank you so much. It was a pleasure, Pat.

Pat:

Hey listeners, thank you for joining us today and take care. Bye bye.