Copper Pail and Sacred Steps- The Water Listens

She rises at 3:00 AM, lifts a copper pail filled with river water, and begins to walk. What follows is not activism, performance, or protest. It is prayer.

Anishinaabe Elder and Water Walker Mary Anne Caibaiosai shares a way of seeing the world that is both ancient and urgently needed. Walking rivers at dawn—singing, praying, and carrying water home—she reminds us that healing begins with relationship: to the earth, to our ancestors, and to ourselves.

This is a story about devotion in an age of distraction. About keeping your eyes forward when the world feels fractured and loud. About remembering who you are when everything around you is trying to make you forget.

You may never look at a river—or your own reflection—the same way again.

Today's episode is brought to you by the Joan of Arc Scroll Medal, a beautiful brass alloy medal, designed by award-winning artist, Pat Benincasa. This uniquely shaped medal is ideal for holiday or as a special occasion gift!    Visit www.patbenincasa-art.com

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Transcript

Pat:

Fill To Capacity where heart grit and irreverent humor collide. A podcast for people too stubborn to quit and too creative not to make a difference.

Pat:

Hi, I am Pat Benincasa, and welcome to Fill To Capacity, Episode #137, "Copper Pail and Sacred Steps- The Water Listens." Now, before I begin, I have to tell you, doing a podcast can take you on all sorts of journeys. What you were about to hear is unlike anything I've done in my five years of podcasting, and I'm grateful for that now. When I reached out to my guest and Anishinaabe Elder and Water Walker from Manitoulin Island in Ontario, an Unceded Territory where her ancestors walked and invited her to come on to Fill To Capacity, she and her colleague, Shirley Lynn Martin, wrote back with a request. Now, before any recording could happen, the three of us needed to meet on a zoom. There were protocols to discuss, and there was something I needed to offer. A Tobacco Tie- tobacco wrapped in a red cloth with a written intention and  Anishinaabe tradition.

Pat:

This is how you ask an elder to share sacred teachings. It is how the relationship begins. But now, okay, there was a problem. I'm in Minnesota and I can't mail tobacco to Canada. So, I emailed my Canadian cousin, Christine Lowden, Chrissy, and told her the situation and asked if she would purchase the tobacco and red cloth, make the pouch, and mail it to my guest with my written intention. What I didn't know was that Chrissy, as an elementary school teacher, had already read to her class a book about water walkers. She jumped at the chance to help. My guest received the tobacco tie and accepted it. Only then could we begin. What you're about to hear is not a podcast interview. It is a sacred conversation. And for my guest, Mary Anne Caibaiosai, she is an Ojibwe Anishinaabe of the Bear clan. She is an Elder, a traditional knowledge keeper, a counselor, a phenomenal portrait artist, and a PhD candidate in indigenous studies.

Pat:

She has spent decades carrying and sharing teachings from her elders, the sacred responsibility of passing wisdom forward. And she is a water walker. What does that mean? She rises at three in the morning, carries water from a river source in a copper pail, and walks for days singing to the river. So, she, the river, can become clean. Every step is a prayer, every step is a ceremony. And she learned this from Josephine Mandamin, an Anishinaabe grandmother who at the age of 71 began walking the Great Lakes- all of them, thousands of miles over many years, carrying water, carrying prayers until her body could no longer carry her. Josephine passed in 2019, but the walking did not stop. Mary Anne was on Josephine's final walk in 2017 and something in her said, keep going. And she has, and as she says, we do it for the water. Mary Anne, welcome. I am so honored to have you here today.

Mary Anne:

Thank you, Pat. I'm so excited to be here. I'm very grateful for your invitation. It's always a special occasion when I can share what I know about the water, and I just wanted to introduce myself in my language...In English. I'm saying that I'm a bear, bear clan and I'm Ojibwe Anishinaabe from ...territories. That's Manitoulin Island. I currently live on the territory of the...Anishinaabe people. And I live in the village of Warsaw and I'm a student. And, yes, I'm really happy to be here. I've been thinking about this for a while. We just had our first fundraiser for the Grand River Water Walk on the weekend. And everybody's excited.

Pat:

The Grand River flows nearly 300 kilometers, 186 miles through southern Ontario Canada, emptying into Lake Erie, a designated Canadian Heritage River. It has been home to indigenous peoples for thousands of years.

Mary Anne:

That's one of the blessings from the water walk. People get excited and this year's walk is particularly special for us. The theme of this year's walk is Nigiiwemin, which in the language means we're all going home. And that understanding, this year that we're bringing the water home from the mouth back to her source, the Grand River. We're starting at Lake Erie and going north on the west side of the Grand River. We're taking her home. And that journey is also about us going home. And that for us, that means going home, is going home to who we are, to our spirit, to our purpose. And that water that fills all of us up, and it comes in so many forms and is in all of us. I think there's like 70% water as an Anishinaabe woman. The teaching is that it's the women who bring life. And so that's our responsibility to carry the water

Pat:

Well. That's beautiful. Now, you talk about getting up at three in the morning in this process. Now across many traditions, indigenous, eastern, Celtic, the hours around 3:00 AM are understood as threshold time. The veil between the worlds is at its thinnest creation, waking up. What does that moment feel like? The darkness, the water in your hands. And the first step?

Mary Anne:

I'm so glad you asked that Pat because our elders always tell us that three o'clock is when the ancestors are closest to the Earth. That's when they're right there next to us. And at 3:00 AM when most people are in their beds, there's something about that hush. There's something about that connection. When you know that the ancestors are there, you can feel that presence and it's perfectly still. All you can hear are your own footsteps. The sound of our walkers, singing softly, praying. And then you start hearing the first sounds of creation, like the crickets, the frogs, the toads, the marshes that, that we walk past. Then you hear the robin, our teachings, the robin is the one who offers her voice, the first. And we start, it's almost like we're hearing creation from the very first sound, the song, the prayer, like our own breath.

Mary Anne:

That's how we were given life. When we think of creation, we were given sacred breath. And so when we're walking, that's what we feel. It's that softness. And we're breathing and we're in ceremony. So, when we start walking, we always say, it's not just a walk, it is a ceremony. 'cause we start by smudging, which is what I have here. I have some smudge going-my medicine in the teaching that the medicines help us take away all of the heaviness to clear our thoughts. We smudge over our ears so that we hear only the goodness, and we smudge our hearts so that we walk with love and kindness and openness. And we smudge away all of the pain that we're feeling. The worry. And so that special time is that it's like a ceremony that then when you look up, that's when you see millions of stars that we would never see if you're lying in your bed and it's just like star studded sky.

Mary Anne:

And then we start seeing the sky changing color from the black to the navy to the unbelievable shade of blue. And it starts getting lighter and lighter. And then you start seeing like the, I always called like a palette. The sky changing colors. And then all the other birds start coming. And then there's red wing blackbirds, blue jays, crows. And it's the same pattern. The one thing about waking up with creation, Pat, is you actually start hearing the pattern. 'cause we would not know that otherwise. The same bird sounds first, then the next one, then the next one. It's always the same. And we say the robin is the one who offers her prayer. The first offers her song. I like to say she sang a prayer for creation.

Pat:

Now, I mentioned that Mary Anne and I met on Zoom before the conversation. We are from completely different worlds. She from a tradition rooted in the land and waters of Ontario, me from an Italian family, the daughter of immigrants who placed Italy inside of me. And I gotta tell you, lights went on during this conversation. We both live in the fierce presence of our ancestors. Not as memory, not as history, as presence, as guidance, as daily company. This parallel understanding really, really touched me. Now, Mary Anne, when you walk carrying the water, carrying the prayers, do you feel, I mean, actually feel your ancestors with you are your steps. Their steps?

Mary Anne:

Absolutely. You know, our understanding is that I am my mother. I am my father. I'm my grandmother. I am my grandfather. 'cause they brought me here. They placed me here. And my water is theirs. The water that's in me, the emotions that I carry were theirs. When I was in my mother's womb water for nine months, I was feeling everything that she felt. Everything that she heard, everything that she learned came through that water. And that gift is what I hold. And then he, my dad,and her created me. So, I carry his characteristics and each of them carries their parents in them. That's, that's that understanding. And so, what I know is what they know is what they knew from their learnings. That's how it is. Every cell in our body comes from those, the DNA comes from them. I always say, my elders taught me, but so did my parents and my grandparents, the ancestors, what they went through is what I'm holding. And so sometimes when we feel something, you've done something and then you say, how did I know how to do this? Because they needed, it's through them, Pat, you're carrying your ancestors too. Like whatever gifts, I always say their gifts and even the hard times are gifts because they're lessons, and they impact us. They impact those steps that I walk in the morning with the pail, so I'm embodying them. I've heard someone say along that same vein, it's not only my voice, you're hearing, you're hearing my ancestors' voices

Pat:

And writing about my ancestors. I came to a sentence and I don't know who gave it to me, but it said" "In your blood is my knowing."

Mary Anne:

Mm-hmm.

Pat:

And I think that's what we share that awareness. And I have to say again, from my tradition above my desk, I have an ofrenda and it's a shelf with photos and objects that honor my ancestors. But I also have a bust of Dante Alighieri, who I consider to be one of my greatest teachers. And I tell you this because it was Dante who understood better than almost anyone, that the journey into the deep, whether the underworld or in the flow of lakes and rivers or the darkness before 3:00 AM that it's never just a physical journey. It is always, always a journey of spirit, a journey of soul. So again, I think we kind of are fellow travelers along our ancestral road, if you will.

Mary Anne:

Absolutely. I love that line too because there's those moments at that time. You know, they call that that a liminal space. Between dreaming and waking up. And that's where we often receive our messages. What like the dreams, visions, and that guide us. And we, we, we know, and I'm sure a lot of other cultures believe that dreams are that guiding way of seeing what to do next or where to go next. And they also reflect our life. If it's a tumultuous dream, you know, sometimes that's how it works as well, right? It is a beautiful space that's so powerful. We're literally connected to the spirit and it's spirit that guides us. And when I say spirit, it's that inner you. And sometimes when I help people, they say, well, what does spirit mean? I go, well, you know that feeling when you are looking up at the stars or you are watching that amazing sunrise or that sunset, or you hear that your favorite music and you go, ha! That a sense, that spirit.

Mary Anne:

That's your spirit lifting up. And so when we do that walk, I've heard many people who have done the water walk with us. I ask them, how did you feel? Like, what's the word that describes your experience? They say transformation. I've been transformed because it is that connecting at that time when they're, they've never experienced it. It touches that part of them that they've never allowed to be touched because of that connection to the, to creation. Waking up. And the sounds and what you're seeing. It's almost like brand new because you've not done it before.

Pat:

Now I wanna go in a different direction. You've spoken about the weight of the pale changing, getting heavier when you walk through cities, through pollution, through conflict. Can you describe what that physical sensation teaches you?

Mary Anne:

Yes. Thanks for, for reminding me about that because we'll be doing that in our next walk. We're going through the cities, and we've heard other scientific studies like studies. Dr. Emoto.

Pat:

Masaru Emoto is a Japanese author and researcher who appeared in the 2004 documentary, "What The Bleep Do We Know." His work proposed that human consciousness, words, and intentions could affect the molecular structure of water. His research sparked both widespread fascination and scientific debate, scientific debate. But for many indigenous and spiritual traditions around the world, the idea that water is a living responsive being is not a theory. It is a teaching that long predates his work.

Mary Anne:

That Japanese researcher who studied water who talked about how the water changed with the positive words against it, and then how crystalline it was under the microscope, and then how dark and murky it was with the negative that was definitely visible or felt on the walk. 'Cause we've walked through some territories were, yes, the pale was definitely heavier. My own experience is moving the pail from hand to hand because it got so heavy. And sometimes it was through those places where there was a lot of traffic, a lot of noise, a lot of tension. And we can feel the tension. We could feel the tension in the air. Sometimes the people going by with their be tooting their horn at us or yelling at us. You people go to work, get jobs, all kinds of negative energies. That's when we'd feel the pale get heavy.

Mary Anne:

Or in territory where there was a lot of electrical. Like one time when, during the walk with Josephine Bah we walked through a whole, I think a quarter of a mile under those, those power lines. And we could feel it like our hair was standing up on our arms. And she just left us, let us walk. And she said, I'll pray for you. Because she knew what that would feel like. Even those things, while they're not necessarily visible, sometimes even the invisible is hard. The smell sometimes areas had a lot of pollution, a lot of the fumes from cars, a lot of those invisible parts. Even the staff got heavier. And so, at the end of the day, we smudged the pail, we smudged the staff, washed her off, washed him off, with water and took care of them. They're doing a lot of work too.

Mary Anne:

And then if we were stressed out as walkers going through that really chaotic area, your emotions go into the pail, your anxiety goes into the water, your fear goes into the water. Sometimes we'd have vehicles going right past us, literally touching our skirts. That's how close we were to like traffic. And so that causes that disruption in us, right? Our feelings, they go into the pail. All of those, uh, factors affect the water. Affect is water. And she is life. And she too is impacted by what's around her. Yes, energy. Just like us, when we're anxious, when someone says negative words to us, our water is impacted. Our bodies feel it. We have to take care of our water. And when I say transformation on the walks, some of the men were actually crying. They actually cried during the walk because of those things that they were feeling that they weren't accustomed to. And it's powerful.

Pat:

You know, I was thinking about what you do. This past winter, Buddhist monks walked 2,300 miles barefoot from Fort Worth, Texas to Washington DC over 108 days. And they did this for peace. Like what you're talking about. Some of the communities greeted them with open arms. Others, wow. They were met with hostility and slurs. Now here you are, this woman walking with people on a highway at dawn carrying a copper pale, singing and praying. And as you've described, at times, you've been jeered at honked at dismissed. My question for you is all that is going on. How do you hold the prayer while the world rushes past you? Indifferent or hostile? How do you do that?

Mary Anne:

You think about the water. It's all about the water. That's what Josephine said. Look straight ahead. So, for the woman that's carrying the pail, that's her responsibility to just keep walking, keep walking, just focus, pray, sing. Put that positive thoughts. It's all about nibi, all about the water. And then you pass the pail to the next woman. And she does the same. And the person carrying the eagle staff, they're protecting them. That's their responsibility. That's their focus. And even though we feel that like every car, or every person has this smudge, this medicine with them, and we have tobacco, just like what you gave me. We're carrying a pouch and we put down tobacco every time. Sometimes I put down a lot of tobacco. Especially when we go through those environments, when we go those through those situations that medicine is powerful. We just say, help me, help me.

Mary Anne:

And we put tobacco down. Josephine Bah used to say, pray for them, pray for them. They need help. And so and so. But the commitment is to the water is to just keep focusing on the water. 'cause the teaching about looking straight ahead is that we don't want the water to stop flowing straight ahead. We want her to always be flowing. And while we, while we feel it, we feel the tension. We just keep walking. And we've walked through even the weather. We've walked through fog, we've walked through mist, we've walked through light rain, heavy rain, deluge. And people have actually started crying because they've seen me and my companion walk through a whole wall of water. We just kept going, just kept walking. That's commitment, Pat commitment to the walk, to commitment to the water. And that intention. Remember when with the tobacco, you put your intention? Yes. That's what we're doing. We're intentionally walking. We even walked through COVID. We found a way to walk through that time.

Pat:

I have to say as you're talking like this, I kept thinking how relevant it is for right now. We are living in very dark, stressful, dangerous times. And the stress level, you can feel it in people, the craziness in the world, the negative words, the wars -always this making everybody the other, we're all living through this. And then I'm thinking of you talking about, well, I keep my eyes forward and I think about the water. And it is a commitment. And I've often wondered, there are days if I look at news, I will lose it. And I've made myself stop doing that. Not because I don't care, but I focus on what I can do. I'm a light thrower and I like to think that this podcast is throwing bits of light in a very dark world. That's what holds me together. My prayer is that I don't despair. I don't lose hope. That's not what I'm to do. That's not my job. So for you, I am moved by the way, that whether it's torrent of rain, COVID cars coming at you, you keep looking forward honoring the water. I mean, what a, what a life lesson for us.

Mary Anne:

Yeah, that's really important. And I'm learning a lot in the work that I do, is that we know things are happening, happening. We're aware. It's like these little distractions, like the news. You know what's on Facebook or what's on social media, we get distracted. But your role as a podcaster is to bring light. And so you look at the light, it's easy to say, but not easy to do. And so that's why we have our medicines with us when we're traveling. It helps us in that walk, in the walk for the water. And I have it here too. I smudged before I came on. Not that I'm concerned, but it just allows me to settle. It allows that spirit to just stay in that good light and brightness. And when we started walking for the Grand River, I invited everyone to walk. Like she would see all nation's, Grand River Water Walk. Josephine, when I first asked her, she goes, everyone needs the water. Everyone uses water. So, invite everyone. And it's not just our responsibility to do the walk, to do the work. We invite everyone in that same way. Everyone who comes are also impacted. When they come to our ceremonies, they feel that they feel better. It helps them understand. It helps them to connect to the water. It helps them to connect with themselves because I think we get so lost. We lose ourself, you know? And we, and then

Pat:

IPhones and digital

Mary Anne:

Exactly. And I say, who are you? I've asked people, who are you? And they're almost like stymied. Like, I don't even know. So, when I announced myself earlier, I said my name, my clan, my nation, where I'm from, and I said my spirit name. But we all say your Anishinaabe name and it's <inaudible>. And our elders say, when you get your name, it's important to know who you are, what it means. So over time, I've, I said, what does the wind do? It's know wind, woman or wind spirit, woman. What does the wind do? The wind lifts things up. The wind spins, creates change. And so that's how I feel what I'm doing. Creating change, trying to create change, even in a small way to help people to connect to themselves at that special time in the morning. That lends itself to that. Because it's not on the phone. They're with themselves. And you know, that's really important to allow people to go home to themselves. We forget who we are.

Pat:

Your choice of words that we lose our way home. We forget who we are in the context of how busy our lives are. Raising families, taking care of aging parents, work demands. Sometimes having two jobs just to pay rent. We are on a hamster wheel in continuous motion. And what you are talking about is finding a moment of quiet, no distractions. So we can hear that little voice inside giving guidance and direction. It's ourself being heard. And the best part is it's our ancestors or divine love that's already within us.

Mary Anne:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.And the other. Absolutely.

Pat:

And the other thing, when you talk about inviting all sorts of folks to join you, and then grown men just weeping and people just reacting. What I had in my mind, I just see the water coming down and washing away the otherness. The otherness that is always touted in the news. It'll give you a thousand reasons why we don't have anything in common. We are very different, different colors, different language goes on and on. But what you are doing, the otherness is a distraction. It disappears because the water is the binder. It's the water that holds everybody together and others superfluous. Other doesn't mean anything.

Mary Anne:

Yes, yes. Absolutely. And you know, when I thought, thought about those moments when people were crying, one of them. So at the end of the day, during the water walks, we have like a circle, a sharing circle at the end. And we asked people to share, what did you experience, what did you feel, what did you see? What came to you? What stood out for you? And one occasion, we saw a raccoon had been hit by a car. And it was still alive. It had just been hit. And I went over to that raccoon, and I started praying and I put down tobacco on this raccoon. And one of the men that was walking with me, one of the support, like the, the helpers, he said he was just watching. And he said he'd never seen anything like that where someone was acknowledging an animal.

Mary Anne:

I said, well, that's our relative, all of creation is our relatives. And so he said it just totally changed his perspective about life and about honoring what's around us. 'cause we don't even look at what's around us. Like we don't even see the trees. We don't even, like, we don't look at what's around us. We don't hear because we're guided by other things. And like you were saying, the busyness of life. But that othering, it's been happening as long as history has written, divide and conquer. When I think of bringing people together, there's a little bit of resistance. And so if we think of just small actions can create that form of rebellion. Like I refuse to give into the divide and conquer. And those monks who walked, that's kind of what they did, right? Walking for peace. They brought so many millions of people. Even if it was just on the phone watching them. Yes. And people cried. I'm sure they touched that part. Like that spirit that never gets touched. That's really important to remember. Our spirit is in our teachings, we're spirit beings on a physical walk, we're actually a spirit. And all of what we see is clothing, skin. The things that make us different is actually just the covering.

Mary Anne:

Holding our spirit so that we continue to do the work that we are meant to do.

Pat:

You talk about the Grand River Water Walk. That the wok exists specifically because she, the river is suffering. What does this mean? Like what does this suffering look like to you?

Mary Anne:

The suffering is, it's visible. When we first started walking, we, we do like a, we create the route. We do a, what they call a reiki. We map out the route. So we went to the source. And there in the beautiful clear pond was a lawnmower in the source, things like that. Garbage. And all along the Grand River, there's farmland and they put their product into the water. There's industry that's putting their product in the water. And then the people that used to honor the water, indigenous people. So along the Grand River, it's the Haudenosaunee, the Adirondack, and the Anishinaabe peoples. That's the territory around the Grand River, the traditional peoples of the area. We used to go to the, to the water and honor the water and bless the water. Now when we notice, when we planned our route, we don't even have access to the water.

Mary Anne:

We actually have to go to a park. And sometimes we had to even pay to get into the conservation area to get to the water. That's how we know the water isn't well. 'cause those of us who used to go there and practice our ceremonies there, we can't get there. And when we go to the mouth of the, of the river at Lake Erie, we see the color is brown. We see that there's boat races in the water. It's become part of the tourist industry. It's no longer sacred. Like we said, water is medicine. And when we say water is medicine, what does medicine do? She helps you. Medicine is meant to help us feel good, but if the water is polluted, it's no longer medicine. And so that's what we try to do, raise awareness about that. When we do the walks, when people ask us what we're doing, and we get asked that, why are you doing this? And we say it's a ceremony for the water. We're trying to help her to get better. And that's why we carry that copper pail. 'cause copper is, uh, that metal that is actually has something in it that helps to clean the water.

Pat:

I've gotta ask you, and you talked about it earlier, about keeping your eyes straightforward. But I have to ask this, what gives you the strength to keep walking towards something that is in pain? How do you do it?

Mary Anne:

Because we know that water is life because we know that she needs help. So this is the teaching that Josephine Bah shared with me that I'll always remember. She said, how do you feel when you're sick? Have you ever been sick, Pat?

Pat:

Oh yeah.

Mary Anne:

And you can't get outta bed. Just, you're just lying there. And she said, and then someone comes up to you and says, can I give you some water? Can I get you some orange juice? Can I give you a hug? Can I sing you a song? Can I play some music for you? And how do you feel, how do you feel when that happens? You feel loved, you feel held, you are acknowledged and someone's coming to take care of you. She said, that's how the water feels. So, every month before we start the water walks, I guide people who want to do the water walks, go to that river every month and have a water ceremony. So, the water ceremony is feeding the water. We sing to the water, we put down tobacco in the water, and we talk to her and sing and talk to her. Just like what we do in the water walk when we're carrying the pail.

Pat:

Mary Anne, we have just shared something sacred with people we cannot see. They're listening. What do you want them to carry from this conversation?

Mary Anne:

I like that question because it, it allows people to think about what can they do. And often people say, 'cause we know what's happening with the AI data centers, that these are impacting the waters, the gas pipelines that are impacting the waters. But the act that we can do is how do we take care of our water and how do we nourish ourselves? Because that allows us to keep looking forward when we take care of ourselves. And our, the ones that we love to do something better. That's what allows you to be the light sender and to understand that water is life. And without water, we wouldn't be here without water. We would be ill. All of the animals that need water, all of the plants that need water, all of the, the winged ones, the birds, everything in creation needs water. And we need them. If we see our trees, if we see our plants, there's gonna be droughts this year. And maybe to connect in some way with the land, connect with the land and acknowledge the land just like the water. 'cause they go together. If there's no water, the land suffers. That's why we have all of these, like landslides and, and fires and 'cause the water is, is leaving and we have to take care of the water in any small way that you can.

Pat:

Mary Anne, your words are a gift to me and to everyone listening, thank you. And as you would say: Miigwech

Pat:

Thank You for coming today.

Mary Anne:

Yeah. Thank you for asking me, Pat. It's been a real pleasure to see you again and to share some of my words with you.

Pat:

Thank You so much. And thank you listeners for joining us today and take care of yourselves and each other. Bye.

Mary Anne:

Look straight ahead.